something From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1323 posts, RR: 21 Posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2501 times:
Hello all,
even though I had long come to terms with the thought of never going back to the USA again, I am now finding myself in a position where this seems inevitable. It's the sheer number reports of x-ray scanners, TSA's shenanigans, police brutality, unlawful arrests, people being arrested over twitter posts, not being granted constitutional rights as a visitor (you have to agree to that in the ESTA visa waiver form) and lastly having all of my private data stored for 15 years (picture of iris, fingerprints, signature, email address, etc.) in a US database that I just can't, and don't want to, accept.
In the eyes of most, I live a very boring and surprisingly law-obedient lifestyle (I don't even use Twitter, Facebook, Tumblr etc.). Aside from a few stamps in my passport to nations the USA is less than pally with, I really shouldn't have anything to worry about - but seeing how easily even the most innocent of people have gotten caught up in such situation terrifies me. That's one part. The other part is: I just couldn't live with myself if I submitted myself to these stasi-like methods. All of this goes very strongly against my fundamental values and beliefs, that at this point I am considering leaving my job to avoid having to enter the USA.
But that's nothing I would want to do at all, so I have been wondering if there aren't ways to circumvent these ''counter terrorism measures''. What if I flew into YYZ and then entered the USA on a Greyhound bus? Or what if I flew into, say, Puerto Rico and then took another flight from there to the mainland? I would still need to be afraid of being arrested over taking pictures of aircraft (which happened to a friend of mine at JFK), but those are risks I could mitigate by simply remaining inside the hotel or the business meetings I need to attend. Having my personal belongings scrutinized and my personal data stored however, is not quite as easy to avoid.
So my question is: Are there ways to enter the USA without losing my dignity and if so, what are they? Because if there aren't, and I've made this clear to my current employer, there's no way he'll see me state-side.
P.S. I know in the eyes of most my reaction seems exaggerated. But to be perfectly honest, I find every other reaction to these measures nothing short of reprehensible. I just don't comprehend how anybody could possibly be okay with this.
Are there other people out here with similar problems as me?
Thanks for all suggestions in advance!
Think about how stupid the average person is; and then realize half of 'em are stupider than that
GBLKD From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2011, 330 posts, RR: 0 Reply 2, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2486 times:
Myeslf, my wife, and my son have a real desire to visit New York but I feel the same way that you do about the way foreigners, even those of us who are citizens of America's closest ally, are treated.
I find myself asking if it's really worth the hassle to be honest. Do I really want myself, wife, and 12 year old son poentially treated like criminals on our holiday? Not sure I do.
seb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 8614 posts, RR: 19 Reply 3, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2468 times:
Geez!! You all make us sound like a police state; like North Korea. Not everywhere is like that and it is not like that all the time. JFK is one of the most recongnized ports in the country and one of the busiest for international travel. Our government has a tendancy to react after the fact. If security is tight at JFK, it is because of 9/11. I have taken many pictures at SFO, SLC, SEA, PDX, LAX and have never seen security. If I were to be on the other side of the fence, I would see TONS of security! You will also see security forces if you rob a store or drive drunk or protest for more than an hour. However, if you are enjoying a picknik in the park at noon, or touring a museum, or streched out on a warm beach, no one will probably even notice you are there!
Point is: As long as you don't do anything stupid, you won't have a problem. United States is more than just JFK or New York. Try Denver. Beautiful city on the edge of the Rocky Mountains. Or, fly to YVR and rent a car to see SEA and PDX. Don't let one experience at one airport keep you away from a beautiful and friendly place!
Wheel of morality turn, turn, turn. Tell us the lesson that we should learn
aloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 7589 posts, RR: 51 Reply 4, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2457 times:
You already supply a photograph when you get a passport and you supply one or more with many visa applications. IIRC, getting a German passport also entails having your fingerprints taken - I'll soon find out anyway because I need a new one. I don't like it either, but I see it as an additional layer of identification rather than being treated like a criminal.
A job that I have takes me to the US about once per month on average and I usually need some goodwill from TSA, CBP, airline and airport staff to do it well. Once they know why (one of the best possible reasons), almost all of them are helpful and courteous. The keys to that are openness, cooperation and common courtesy on my part. You can be completely calm and relaxed as long as what you're doing is completely legal, so naturally the goverment staff will take a second and third look at you if you've worked yourself up over the horror stories. Just avoid that and you will almost certainly be fine.
Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
zckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 245 posts, RR: 0 Reply 5, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2441 times:
If you come in by bus you'll still have to fulfill the visa requirements. In fact as far as I know there's no way around those.
I don't have a lot of sympathy for this point of view to be honest. If you're not prepared to abide by the rules of the country you're visiting don't go. You might not agree with those rules (neither do I), but nevertheless they must be respected since you are a guest in that country.
You can't accept that the world has changed, we have more advanced ways of keeping people safe, and that this is just one way of helping ensure that citizens of the world aren't threatened as easily?
Quoting something (Thread starter): but seeing how easily even the most innocent of people have gotten caught up in such situation terrifies me.
Incorrect. You've only heard of the few innocent people who have gotten caught up because they have a reason to make a case. You haven't heard about the hundreds of millions of people who travel to/from the USA every day and don't have a single problem. There are two sides of every story. You can't only cite one and claim it's the general condition.
Quoting something (Thread starter): I just couldn't live with myself if I submitted myself to these stasi-like methods. All of this goes very strongly against my fundamental values and beliefs
What you're basically saying here is, "I refuse to allow the authorities to ensure the safety of those around me." You're claiming that what the TSA and related agencies are doing is a complete violation of personal rights. It's not. It may be a violation of your privacy, especially if they do their job poorly, but nowhere does it state (in any civilized country) that you are allowed to travel unimpeded and undocumented wherever, whenever, and with whatever personal items you choose.
Quoting something (Thread starter): I have been wondering if there aren't ways to circumvent these ''counter terrorism measures''
Yes. Stay in your house and never leave. Police, ambulance, firefighting, military, and security services are all here to protect us and make sure we live our lives safely. Would you do away with all those organizations I just mentioned, too?
Quoting something (Thread starter): Are there ways to enter the USA without losing my dignity
Yes. Millions of people do it every year. And if you do get stopped, as you said, you have nothing to worry about. So nobody's going to throw you in a prison cell with a big guy named Bubba and let you fend for yourself. You're being controlled by extreme media, frightened by rare cases of TSA having some agents who don't perform their duties well, and letting your decisions be influenced by unjust fear.
Quoting something (Thread starter): I know in the eyes of most my reaction seems exaggerated
Not exaggerated. Just a little bit ignorant and juvenile.
Listen, I'm an American citizen, so I'll admit I might be a little biased. I don't agree with all of the TSA's methods and policies. But I'm more than willing to subject myself to security screening and questioning if something in my documentation doesn't add up for some reason. It's in the interest of everyone around me that the TSA is checking me out (not that they ever have, but it's an example) just as it is in my best interest if they check you out. You mentioned someone getting arrested for plane spotting at JFK. That's a case of the officer taking advantage of someone who didn't know their rights. There are bad eggs in every basket, but you only heard about this situation because it was out of the ordinary. I've been spotting at JFK for years (along with hundreds of other poeple) and have never had a problem when I presented ID and was aware of my rights as a citizen. If your friend had not been arrested, he never would have mentioned anything out of the ordinary, and you'd have no qualms about it, I'm guessing.
You need to do a bit more reading of unbiased media, and talk to more people who have traveled to the USA recently. The professional organizations (in any country) are there to protect you and those around you. If they weren't, we'd have far too many problems all over the world.
TIS
www.tisdigital.com, www.stellaryear.com: Canon EOS 50D, Canon EOS 5DMkII, Sigma 50mm 1.4, Canon 100mm 2.8L, Canon 100-40
something From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1323 posts, RR: 21 Reply 7, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2439 times:
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 1): I'm sure Puerto Rico is full of TSA too, but Toronto may work.
Toronto is a decent place, Montreal is even better. But I've never crossed the Canadian-USA border and don't know if I'd still need to fill out the ESTA to enter the USA this way?
Quoting GBLKD (Reply 2): I find myself asking if it's really worth the hassle to be honest.
If it were only a hassle, I wouldn't have too much of a problem with it as I am getting paid for my time there. It would, in any case, rule the USA out as a vacation destination though.
I am just extremely uncomfortable with the idea of having everything I do protocolled and stored inaccessible to me for 15 years, especially if I don't even know what is being protocolled and what information about me is accrued.
But glad I'm not the only one who feels that way.
Quoting seb146 (Reply 3): You all make us sound like a police state
It's the USA that does, not ''us''. Which is exactly the dilemma I am facing. I would love to love the USA. New York is an interesting place, Chicago is beautiful, I have great friends in Dallas, San Francisco is gorgeous, Seattle is a place I could see myself live in, Hawaii is ridiculously gorgeous, Anchorage is breath taking and I could go on like that for hours. But when I am asked to agree that I will not be protected by the most basic constitutional rights as a visitor, have my every step monitored and may end up getting arrested and deported over a ridiculous post on Twitter?
Like I said.. I could tolerate taking the risk, or whatever you want to call it, by keeping a low profile and not even doing anything crazy as renting a car and driving without my birth certificate on me. Nothing I am happy about, but something I could live with.
But surrendering my entire privacy, and having all of that monitored and saved in a database? I'm not 5 years old, and the USA gov't are not my parents. Calling the US a police state might be a bit of stretch, but meekly submitting myself to all of these things I disagree with so vehemently (as I think everybody should) is shameful and undignifying to me. I know it may sound a bit petty, but I just couldn't live with myself if I whored out my principles like that.
Think about how stupid the average person is; and then realize half of 'em are stupider than that
ANITIX87 From Switzerland, joined Mar 2005, 3081 posts, RR: 16 Reply 8, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2408 times:
Quoting something (Reply 7): But surrendering my entire privacy, and having all of that monitored and saved in a database? I'm not 5 years old, and the USA gov't are not my parents. Calling the US a police state might be a bit of stretch, but meekly submitting myself to all of these things I disagree with so vehemently (as I think everybody should) is shameful and undignifying to me. I know it may sound a bit petty, but I just couldn't live with myself if I whored out my principles like that.
What do you think happens every time you come to this website? Your visit (IP Address, Operating System, Geographical Location, Referring Link, and even browser type) get documented. Anyone running the site can explore this information and contact you.
Every search you make into Google gets recorded. Every website you visit gets logged so that online advertising can be targeted directly to you. If you're living under the illusion that you can be invisible, you really don't know anything about technology.
TIS
www.tisdigital.com, www.stellaryear.com: Canon EOS 50D, Canon EOS 5DMkII, Sigma 50mm 1.4, Canon 100mm 2.8L, Canon 100-40
PPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8202 posts, RR: 48 Reply 9, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2391 times:
Quoting something (Reply 7): But I've never crossed the Canadian-USA border and don't know if I'd still need to fill out the ESTA to enter the USA this way?
It's been a while since I've crossed that border by car, but I would think you still need it. The advantage is probably not getting groped/irradiated by the TSA. I would think unreasonable searches and seizures are less likely to happen as well since you're not getting on an airplane.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
something From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1323 posts, RR: 21 Reply 10, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2392 times:
Quoting aloges (Reply 4): The keys to that are openness, cooperation and common courtesy on my part. You can be completely calm and relaxed as long as what you're doing is completely legal, so naturally the goverment staff will take a second and third look at you if you've worked yourself up over the horror stories. Just avoid that and you will almost certainly be fine.
Tell that to the tweety bird at LAX. Or to any of the people in the thousands of youtube videos that document police brutality. I'm sorry, but I'm just not that kind of person who can do that.
Quoting zckls04 (Reply 5): If you're not prepared to abide by the rules of the country you're visiting don't go. You might not agree with those rules (neither do I), but nevertheless they must be respected since you are a guest in that country.
No, I absolutely agree with you there, which is why I started this thread in the first place. If I can't find a way to get around ending up on the US's ''guest list'', I will not go. I'm looking for a legal work-around, a loophole if you will. I wouldn't enter the USA illegally for that purpose.
Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 6): Quoting something (Thread starter):
I just can't, and don't want to, accept.
You can't accept that the world has changed, we have more advanced ways of keeping people safe, and that this is just one way of helping ensure that citizens of the world aren't threatened as easily?
Yes, I should be thankful that there are people out there, who day and night put their lives on the line so I can wake up in a safe world. I wonder how we could even survive before 9/11 and all the laws, rules and regulations that brought us. How reckless we all were..
Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 6): Quoting something (Thread starter):
but seeing how easily even the most innocent of people have gotten caught up in such situation terrifies me.
Incorrect. You've only heard of the few innocent people who have gotten caught up because they have a reason to make a case. You haven't heard about the hundreds of millions of people who travel to/from the USA every day and don't have a single problem. There are two sides of every story. You can't only cite one and claim it's the general condition.
Please visit any sizeable spotter-forum in the USA you can find and you will see they have a dedicated ''Run Ins With The Law'' sub-section, where members discuss issues they've been having with the police and security at the various spotting locations. Then find me a single European forum that has something comparable established.
It's obviously true that the majority of visitors don't have any noteworthy problems with the authorities. But neither do most women in Saudi Arabia. Does that mean I should just shut up, rock my burka and be happy my existence is being tolerated? That's not the philosophy I live my life by..
Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 6): Quoting something (Thread starter):
I have been wondering if there aren't ways to circumvent these ''counter terrorism measures''
Yes. Stay in your house and never leave. Police, ambulance, firefighting, military, and security services are all here to protect us and make sure we live our lives safely. Would you do away with all those organizations I just mentioned, too?
If by employing this reductio ad absurdum you are trying to suggest it's either the way things are, or total anarchy, I regret having to point out that it's not.
Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 6): You mentioned someone getting arrested for plane spotting at JFK. That's a case of the officer taking advantage of someone who didn't know their rights. There are bad eggs in every basket, but you only heard about this situation because it was out of the ordinary.
But that's the joke about it. The cop asked him to delete the images he took, when he refused to comply he was taken to the police station for ''disorderly conduct''.
Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 6): You need to do a bit more reading of unbiased media, and talk to more people who have traveled to the USA recently. The professional organizations (in any country) are there to protect you and those around you. If they weren't, we'd have far too many problems all over the world.
Look, I read this article in a German newspaper the other day about a study that conclusively proved that ''data preservation'' (storing phone and online histories of people for a certain period of time) has not helped criminal investigation at all. What is the error rate of these x-ray machines? 70-80%?
If America wants to become a safer place, they should start by making less enemies; not by pissing off the few remaining friends they have.
But this is all good and well, and I know neither I, nor you, nor anybody else on here is able to change the way things are going as of now and that's not why I am here either. I know people's personal definitions of 'privacy', 'civil liberties', 'freedom', etc. vary greatly and if you believe that the way you are conducting yourself is conducive to making America safer, great. I don't believe it and therefore, I am in no way compelled to budge even an inch from my stance. (By the way, 20 years ago, most Americans wouldn't have expected me to, either).
If I can find a work-around to enter the USA without having my aureolas licked, then I'll thank the person who explained to me how to go about it. If that's legally impossible, I'll stay here at least until I have acquired full diplomatic immunity. I will still be the exact same person, but suddenly, entirely harmless.
Edit:
Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 8): What do you think happens every time you come to this website? Your visit (IP Address, Operating System, Geographical Location, Referring Link, and even browser type) get documented. Anyone running the site can explore this information and contact you.
Every search you make into Google gets recorded. Every website you visit gets logged so that online advertising can be targeted directly to you. If you're living under the illusion that you can be invisible, you really don't know anything about technology.
That's different. As long as I am surfing without using proxies, my IP address will only provide you with vary vague information about me. The fact that I am running Google Chrome on Windows 7 and use an internet provider, whose server is not even located in the same country as I am, will make it very hard to trace me down. Especially since said internet provider is required, per law, to delete my connection information within 12 hours after they've changed (I get assigned a new IP address every time I log in and for that reason alone, re-connect my internet every 12 hours).
Again, I know I am not invisible, I know I can't be anonymous and I know that I never will be. But just because I can't have full anonymity, doesn't mean I shouldn't have any. If the US were to store ''A British cititzen entered the USA at JFK inbound from LHR on British Airways'' for a reasonable time period (72 hours or so), I'd have no objections whatsoever. But having my iris, my finger prints, email address, residency, and who knows what else stored for 15 years? Unacceptable.
[Edited 2012-02-02 09:38:26]
Think about how stupid the average person is; and then realize half of 'em are stupider than that
SOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 2775 posts, RR: 16 Reply 11, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2373 times:
As a Saudi Citizen i can say that every time i travel to the USA (twice a year at least) via IAD , i never felt humiliated nor discriminated against. TSA, immigrations and customs are there for the safety of the people including myself while i am there. Even immediately after 9/11 getting extra security did not bother me. Always be ready to answer any question with a clear and honest response, smile, be friendly and don't try to be a smart a,,
FingerLakerAv8r From United States of America, joined May 2011, 259 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2339 times:
I never understood why people were afraid to come visit the USA...
Just keep your valuables and cash out of sight and you'll find we are a friendly people who are only more than happy to show you our great country!
mham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2557 posts, RR: 3 Reply 14, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2319 times:
Quoting something (Reply 7): I am just extremely uncomfortable with the idea of having everything I do protocolled and stored inaccessible to me for 15 years, especially if I don't even know what is being protocolled and what information about me is accrued.
You may not realize it, but the great collector of information is not the government, but private enterprise. Whether you want to believe or not, everything you google, everything you purchase, every place you go is tracked. What is really amusing is that you seem happy to live with the millions of cameras tracking your every move in England, by the government, something most of us here abhor. In fact, many of us shake our heads at things that others accept in your country. Did you know that British Telecom, is planning to use deep packet inspection technology provided by companies such as Phorm in order to examine the contents of the pages that people visit?
Quoting something (Reply 7): But when I am asked to agree that I will not be protected by the most basic constitutional rights as a visitor,
What ever made you believe that you live under our Constitution? You live in a country whose government has tried to block Twitter and Facebook, and you complain about the loss of rights you never had in a country you don't live in.
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 2697 posts, RR: 25 Reply 15, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2310 times:
I see your concerns, and I hope more civil liberties return to the US, but honestly, as long as you're not posting weird stuff on the internet and you're not a jerk to any policemen, you'll be fine. Most police here are reasonable anyway.
I do think you make the situation sound worse than it really is. Sure, in the worst case, some tourists have been questioned for a while, but no one has been sent to Gitmo, and it's not like some countries that will accuse you of spying and lock you up for a while. The US has plenty of great sights and cities (honestly, I don't see everyone's big obsession with NYC, it's a cool place to visit but there are many other great/better places IMO.)
I'm optimistic and I think all this craziness / neoconservationism will die down soon (within the next 10 years.) Don't completely write us off.
And very anecdotal, but I actually feel quite safe in the US. I missed and earthquake / tsunami in Japan, missed riots in Greece, missed a rebellion / coup in Egypt, missed bombs in Israel, missed a grenade / machine gun attack in Belgium, missed a bomb in Norway, and didn't get kidnapped by Los Zetas in Mexico. I missed many of these events by a matter of weeks, yet have lived in America all my life, unharmed
vikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 6516 posts, RR: 29 Reply 17, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2295 times:
Quoting something (Reply 10):
Please visit any sizeable spotter-forum in the USA you can find and you will see they have a dedicated ''Run Ins With The Law'' sub-section, where members discuss issues they've been having with the police and security at the various spotting locations. Then find me a single European forum that has something comparable established.
That's a terrible example. It's a VERY select group of people, engaging in an activity that I think is understandably viewed a bit suspiciously (not just by law enforcement, but by some other people as well).
Whether or not you agree with our long-term reaction (I certainly don't agree with it all), we had a huge terrorist attack involving airplanes. People see that, and hear the news or whatever, and think "oh man, anyone plane-spotting might be up to no good!"
Kind of like how you watch the news or whatever, and think "oh man, the USA is an authoritarian tyranny like Saudi Arabia!"
FYI, being of Indian ethnicity, I have dark skin. Also have a goatee, and (currently) not-short hair. Yet I go shoot airplanes at LAX all the time, and have never been hassled. I've taken photos in airport terminals, and never been hassled. I've taken many flights around the country, and have never been hassled (hell, I've never even been pulled aside for a "random" search). I was shooting airplane light trails on the beach by LAX one night, and a cop drove up to me. This was the ENTIRE exchange:
Cop: Hey bro, what you up to?
Me: Just taking some long exposures.
Cop: OK. [Cop drives away]
I've been pulled over for speeding, and never been treated like anything other than a normal person who was driving too fast (I've also never been ticketed for it).
While the US keeping your info for however long is something over which you have no control, I honestly wouldn't worry about it. But obviously people have different beliefs about that sort of thing.
The spirit of Massachusetts is the spirit of America!
Ken777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 6127 posts, RR: 4 Reply 18, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2294 times:
Quoting aloges (Reply 4): I am now finding myself in a position where this seems inevitable. It's the sheer number reports of x-ray scanners, TSA's shenanigans, police brutality, unlawful arrests, people being arrested over twitter posts, not being granted constitutional rights as a visitor
My first experience with a scanner was at LHR. London's Heathrow. In the UK. The gent was very polite, asking me if I would take part in a trial for these "new machines". Not a problem for me and it really shouldn't be for anyone. You are "viewed" by a person of the same sex who sees a thousand "views" a day and could care less what the size of your "anything" is.
I have also been randomly selected for additional security questioning at LHR. Pretty thorough and very professionally done. Again, not a problem and I ended up being pretty impressed with the lass who carried out the questioning. (She was a BA employee, BTW.)
So you can get involved in airport security anywhere you go. In the US you might feel the experience is different than the UK because of the personalities of people around the country. In NYC they might be more brisk and brash. Go through Atlanta and they may well have a different approach.
Police are generally polite if you are polite to them. Works the same in the US as the UK and anywhere else. Showing respect tends to get it back.
If you are really worried about the brisk & brash attitudes then I would go through a different city, like Atlanta, and then enjoy the more relaxed parts of the country. New Orleans is back with the French Quarter. DisneyWorld is a great place for a family, especially with Epcot included. And Harry Potter is close. San Francisco is really a great place for visiting, with LA a short flight (or long drive) away. There are a lot of places in the US to visit, just like we have a lot of places across the pond we would enjoy - and the wife & I are headed back around September.
signol From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2007, 2753 posts, RR: 8 Reply 19, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2287 times:
Quoting something (Reply 10): If I can find a work-around to enter the USA without having my aureolas licked
Fly to Cuba, on VS or Cubana, then find a small boat and cross under cover of nightfall to Florida. Or go to Canada in winter, and walk accross a frozen lake. Of set up a fake identity, get yourself a "genuine" passport in this new ID and use that to enter the US. Though they might find you out...
Visitors should get full consitutional rights? I highly doubt when I go to the UK I get all the rights someone from their would get.
Quoting something (Thread starter): and lastly having all of my private data stored for 15 years (picture of iris, fingerprints, signature, email address, etc.) in a US database that I just can't, and don't want to, accept.
You do understand this happens everywhere and anywhere. Are you on facebook? You do understand that facebook OWNS everything you have ever posted on their site.
Quoting something (Thread starter): All of this goes very strongly against my fundamental values and beliefs, that at this point I am considering leaving my job to avoid having to enter the USA.
Then don't bother. Have fun being afraid of nothing.
Quoting something (Thread starter): Or what if I flew into, say, Puerto Rico and then took another flight from there to the mainland?
The federal government would treat Puerto Rico differently why?
Quoting something (Thread starter): Having my personal belongings scrutinized and my personal data stored however, is not quite as easy to avoid.
Oh yea, this never happens in Europe? You know one day in Zurich I had to wait 15mins for them to check something I purchased on board my SWISS flight, man that was horrible I will never go back there again.
Quoting something (Thread starter): I would still need to be afraid of being arrested over taking pictures of aircraft (which happened to a friend of mine at JFK),
Ask anyone here, this is the absolute small minority. There are plenty of places in the world which do not even allow photography at airports. I have taken thousands of pictures in airports.
Quoting something (Thread starter): So my question is: Are there ways to enter the USA without losing my dignity and if so,
When I applied for a student visa to live in Spain I gave them everything, I could not care less if they stored my e-mail adress or picture in a file for 100 years. I have nothing to hide, I wasnt going there to break any laws. Who cares.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
aloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 7589 posts, RR: 51 Reply 21, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2275 times:
Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 19): FYI, being of Indian ethnicity, I have dark skin. Also have a goatee, and (currently) not-short hair. Yet I go shoot airplanes at LAX all the time, and have never been hassled. I've taken photos in airport terminals, and never been hassled.
lewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3096 posts, RR: 6 Reply 22, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2276 times:
I think you are exaggerating. Even if someone stores your information for that long (I don't fully agree with it), they do that for millions of other people. Nobody is going to go through that data again unless your fingerprint is found in a crime scene. I would like to believe that the people who have access to that information have better things to do than randomly check for a tourist's fingerprints and look at your iris scan. This information is of no use to them.
That exists everywhere and it is just a case of bad apples. Should I be afraid to visit London because a paraplegic student demonstrating was thrown out of his wheelchair and beaten up by a police officer?
So far, all the times I have been stopped by the LAPD (who are considered very bad for some reason) I have had courteous officers ask for my DL and my registration, maybe some chit chat and that was about it.
Quoting something (Reply 10): If the US were to store ''A British cititzen entered the USA at JFK inbound from LHR on British Airways'' for a reasonable time period (72 hours or so)
I haven't researched this in detail but I am pretty sure that a foreign national visiting the UK gets his passport scanned and all the information, including name, nationality, date of entry, date of departure and biometrics are stored in a database somewhere, on behalf of the UK government. Same thing happens whenever someone visits any European country. For how long that data is kept, I have no idea.
Quoting mham001 (Reply 16): Quoting something (Reply 7):
But when I am asked to agree that I will not be protected by the most basic constitutional rights as a visitor,
What ever made you believe that you live under our Constitution? You live in a country whose government has tried to block Twitter and Facebook, and you complain about the loss of rights you never had in a country you don't live in.
As far as I know, the US Constitution applies to everyone within the jurisdiction of the United States, regardless of citizenship or residence status, unless someone commits a war crime or is considered an enemy combatant. It should equally apply to visitors and tourists. Are you really supporting that a tourist visiting the US has no right to due process, freedom of speech and all the other wonderful rights that your Constitution provides within your country's borders? The fact that ESTA requires you to basically waive those rights (something I was unaware of), is unacceptable. I am assuming that if you ever visited a western country which protects certain rights you would expect the same fair treatment as everybody else there. I am personally glad to be living in a country like the US, knowing that my rights are protected in the same way as an American's and that I will have equal treatment in case I ever get in minor trouble with the law (worse case scenario - I get deported).
Quoting flymia (Reply 22): Visitors should get full consitutional rights?
Just wanted to specify that I am talking about the basics and not something irrelevant like the right to bear arms. And yes, if you visit the UK, you should expect the same rights and same treatment from the law. They won't throw you in a dungeon if you ever get arrested, for example, and you will have a right to legal representation etc. These are the rights we are talking about.
zckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 245 posts, RR: 0 Reply 23, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2278 times:
I remember going through immigration a couple of years ago and having the most intense and aggressive questioning I have ever faced at a US airport. The border guard insisted- in fact demanded- that I tell him whether I though the US or England were going to win their World Cup match.
I thought it would probably be England (seems so silly now I know), so I told him as much, and he informed that he was sorry, but I did not meet the eligibility requirements for entry into the US. I wrestled with my conscience for a bit before agreeing reluctantly to change my answer, at which point my passport was stamped and I was on my way.
vikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 6516 posts, RR: 29 Reply 24, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2243 times:
Of course I remember! I was actually looking at that thread not too long ago for some reason.
(though to be honest, I never actually understood the thread title)
But yes, good point - they are serious about security for those tankers - they clear the channel, and if I remember correctly, they even stop air traffic over it (I forget where I heard that....I think from someone who was a consultant for the LNG-in-Boston thing).
The spirit of Massachusetts is the spirit of America!
flymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 5674 posts, RR: 6 Reply 26, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2315 times:
Quoting lewis (Reply 24): Just wanted to specify that I am talking about the basics and not something irrelevant like the right to bear arms. And yes, if you visit the UK, you should expect the same rights and same treatment from the law. They won't throw you in a dungeon if you ever get arrested, for example, and you will have a right to legal representation etc. These are the rights we are talking about.
Of course anyone should get a attorney, the right to remain silent etc.. But at the same time they may be treated a little differently if they are not a resident. And obviously there are certain rights they can't have like the right to bear arms or the right to vote etc..
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
lewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3096 posts, RR: 6 Reply 27, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2342 times:
Quoting flymia (Reply 28):
Of course anyone should get a attorney, the right to remain silent etc.. But at the same time they may be treated a little differently if they are not a resident. And obviously there are certain rights they can't have like the right to bear arms or the right to vote etc..
Yeah exactly, the punishment may be a bit different, possibly deportation as I said, since by getting a visa someone has agreed not to get involved in criminal activity. Visitors should not expect the right to vote or bear arms of course!
I was surprised that ESTA requires you to waive your right for protection by the most basic constitutional rights - at least according to the post I was quoting - and this is what I find very weird if not unacceptable. I do not use ESTA to enter the US and I do not recall agreeing to something similar in order to get my work visa.
GrahamHill From France, joined Mar 2007, 2235 posts, RR: 2 Reply 28, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2309 times:
Quoting something (Thread starter): Are there ways to enter the USA without losing my dignity
Sorry, but do you think that all incomers must go through Guantanamo before being allowed to step a foot on the US mainland?
Last time I've been to the US was four years ago. The guy at customs was neutral, neither very polite nor rude. He asked me simple questions and I gave him straight answers. It was quick and efficient. No problem.
Quoting zckls04 (Reply 25): I thought it would probably be England (seems so silly now I know), so I told him as much, and he informed that he was sorry, but I did not meet the eligibility requirements for entry into the US. I wrestled with my conscience for a bit before agreeing reluctantly to change my answer, at which point my passport was stamped and I was on my way.
In that kind of situation, I always have the good reflex to say what the guy wants to hear
"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
airtrainer From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 1369 posts, RR: 15 Reply 29, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2290 times:
Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 30): Last time I've been to the US was four years ago. The guy at customs was neutral, neither very polite nor rude. He asked me simple questions and I gave him straight answers. It was quick and efficient. No problem.
My last visit was last month, and I was really pleased to see how things have improved. The immigration officer at IAD was nice, the only questions he asked were how I was doin' and how long I would stay. Got my passport stamped, no fingerprint, no iris scan, nothing... I then asked if I could stay with my girlfriend who is very shy about speaking english and he had absolutely no problem with that. I've definitely seen worse "welcome" in other countries.
zckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 245 posts, RR: 0 Reply 31, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2263 times:
Quoting lewis (Reply 29): I was surprised that ESTA requires you to waive your right for protection by the most basic constitutional rights - at least according to the post I was quoting - and this is what I find very weird if not unacceptable. I do not use ESTA to enter the US and I do not recall agreeing to something similar in order to get my work visa.
I don't think I've ever had to apply for ESTA, so I've never seen this rights waiver, but I checked with a friend and he doesn't remember anything similar either.
Does anybody know the exact text that you have to agree to for the ESTA? It's fairly pointless discussing it without knowing what is required.
imiakhtar From United Kingdom, joined Apr 2006, 542 posts, RR: 3 Reply 34, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2244 times:
Quoting something (Thread starter): even though I had long come to terms with the thought of never going back to the USA again, I am now finding myself in a position where this seems inevitable. It's the sheer number reports of x-ray scanners, TSA's shenanigans, police brutality, unlawful arrests, people being arrested over twitter posts, not being granted constitutional rights as a visitor (you have to agree to that in the ESTA visa waiver form) and lastly having all of my private data stored for 15 years (picture of iris, fingerprints, signature, email address, etc.) in a US database that I just can't, and don't want to, accept.
Apart from the constitutional rights issue, most of the above are also applicable to the UK.
As is the norm for many Pakistanis, I have a very large extended family, including in the US. When they visit the UK, they have more issues with the UK Border Agency (despite many of them being British nationals) than they do anywhere else.
The UK is not exactly the beacon of freedom, justice and human rights as many hold out.
airtrainer From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 1369 posts, RR: 15 Reply 35, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2231 times:
Quoting zckls04 (Reply 33): I don't think I've ever had to apply for ESTA, so I've never seen this rights waiver, but I checked with a friend and he doesn't remember anything similar either.
Does anybody know the exact text that you have to agree to for the ESTA? It's fairly pointless discussing it without knowing what is required
Here's the link to the application form. Also note that info such as phone number and email address are not stated as mandatory (but of course one need to provide a valid email address to receive the confirmation)...
https://esta.cbp.dhs.gov/esta/application.html?execution=e1s3
[Edit] no intention to bash the OP there, this is just for information purpose...
airtrainer From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 1369 posts, RR: 15 Reply 36, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2221 times:
Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 35): Was it because everything was in their system already? When was the last time you went to the US prior to that one?
I don't think so, my last visit prior to this one was in 2010, but it was the first time for my girlfriend. Also we were told that the famous green card is now gone, we just had to fill ONE customs card for us both (we're not married, just living together).
lewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3096 posts, RR: 6 Reply 37, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2207 times:
Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 35): Was it because everything was in their system already? When was the last time you went to the US prior to that one?
I enter the US a few times per year and I have to re-submit photo and fingerprints every time during re-entry.
Quoting zckls04 (Reply 33):
Does anybody know the exact text that you have to agree to for the ESTA? It's fairly pointless discussing it without knowing what is required.
I went on the ESTA website and up to the point of submitting the personal information, the only waiver was the following:
Waiver of Rights: I have read and understand that I hereby waive for the duration of my travel authorization obtained via ESTA any rights to review or appeal of a U.S. Customs and Border Protection Officer's determination as to my admissibility, or to contest, other than on the basis of an application for asylum, any removal action arising from an application for admission under the Visa Waiver Program.
In addition to the above waiver, as a condition of each admission into the United States under the Visa Waiver Program, I agree that the submission of biometric identifiers (including fingerprints and photographs) during processing upon arrival in the United States shall reaffirm my waiver of any rights to review or appeal of a U.S. Customs and Border Protection Officer's determination as to my admissibility, or to contest, other than on the basis of an application for asylum, any removal action arising from an application for admission under the Visa Waiver Program.
rfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 4871 posts, RR: 21 Reply 38, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2188 times:
Quoting something (Reply 10): Then find me a single European forum that has something comparable established.
zckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 245 posts, RR: 0 Reply 39, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2172 times:
Quoting lewis (Reply 37): Waiver of Rights: I have read and understand that I hereby waive for the duration of my travel authorization obtained via ESTA any rights to review or appeal of a U.S. Customs and Border Protection Officer's determination as to my admissibility, or to contest, other than on the basis of an application for asylum, any removal action arising from an application for admission under the Visa Waiver Program.
In addition to the above waiver, as a condition of each admission into the United States under the Visa Waiver Program, I agree that the submission of biometric identifiers (including fingerprints and photographs) during processing upon arrival in the United States shall reaffirm my waiver of any rights to review or appeal of a U.S. Customs and Border Protection Officer's determination as to my admissibility, or to contest, other than on the basis of an application for asylum, any removal action arising from an application for admission under the Visa Waiver Program.
So you can't appeal the Border Patrol's decision. Seems reasonable- granting appeals to everyone refused who isn't seeking political asylum would be impossible. The same clause is in the regular visa application, and has been for as long as I can remember.
Where's the part where you "give up your constitutional rights"?
aerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 5820 posts, RR: 14 Reply 40, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2142 times:
Quoting something (Thread starter): I would still need to be afraid of being arrested over taking pictures of aircraft (which happened to a friend of mine at JFK)
I have done at least 3 extended trips to the USA (Florida/Washington/Illinois/Minnesota/Michigan/Georgia/Alaska/California/Texas) specifically for the task of plane spotting and photography. The police have observed me, questioned me where I was spotting (as they have to respond to any call by the public), and on one occasion asked to see what I had photographed, but I have never had any issues. I always stay polite and co-operative (answer any questions the ask etc) and in return I have only had one or two out of many that I would consider were rude and overly aggressive.
Quoting something (Thread starter): So my question is: Are there ways to enter the USA without losing my dignity and if so, what are they? Because if there aren't, and I've made this clear to my current employer, there's no way he'll see me state-side.
Sure there are, I always say if you go through screening expecting hassles and with a chip on your shoulder - you will find them at their worst. I go through organised and as early as possible, with my laptop out, shoes in hand, passport and boarding pass handy and as usual polite and courteous and I have again not had issues. I originally had problems at the thought of the body scanner, but I have only been through it once out of many flights - and I'm happy with the size of my cock so I don't worry about what they can or can't see . The stories are always far worse than reality. IMO. I never travel with liquids/gels in my cabin baggage though.
Border crossings to/from Canada are not usually problematic although I have been interrogated more there by customs than at the airports TBH. Still nothing to worry about. I was warned time and time again of how rude the immigration staff are, and I have never ever struck it at all. "Good morning, Yes Sir, No Sir. Please, Thank you. " I have never once been held at a passport check point with thumb/retina scan for more than about 2 minutes.
As far as ESTA international stuff, it is always about organisation. Plan yourself the time to comfortably transfer between flights. A lot of the stress and aggravation is because people try to fit too much into too little time. Also don't leave your application to the last minute...
Quoting imiakhtar (Reply 34): The UK is not exactly the beacon of freedom, justice and human rights as many hold out.
Precisely. I personally think both Australia and the UK have ruder, more aggressive, more racist/discriminatory security/customs officials than the US by some margin.
photopilot From Cuba, joined Jul 2002, 2418 posts, RR: 22 Reply 41, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2068 times:
Quoting ANITIX87 (Reply 6): You haven't heard about the hundreds of millions of people who travel to/from the USA every day and don't have a single problem.
100's of millions of people per day??? Now that's funny as hell, but somewhat overblown.
Quoting something (Reply 10): I wonder how we could even survive before 9/11 and all the laws, rules and regulations that brought us. How reckless we all were..
So yuou've gone from "reckless" to complete paranoia. It's interesting to note however the number of countries in the world that don't seem to have this astounding need to "protect themselves" and also have far less problems than the USA and no terrorist acts committed against them. Wonder why?
As a matter of note. I regularly fly in and out of Cuba (also domestic flights) and also regularly fly up to Minneapolis/St. Paul and I can assure you, it's a heck of a lot less hassles to get into Communist Cuba than freedom loving America. I can generalize and say that entering the USA (by air) involves rude snarky US border agents and security people yet while the Cubans can be just as strict, they are FAR MORE polite and gracious. The most ignorant security people I have EVER met have been at MSP trying to board a flight to either YYZ direct or thru ORD
aloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 7589 posts, RR: 51 Reply 42, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2043 times:
Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 40): Plan yourself the time to comfortably transfer between flights.
If Global Entry ever does get extended to more foreign nationals than Canadians and the Dutch, that will be less of an issue in general terms... fingers crossed!
Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
ual777 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 1447 posts, RR: 5 Reply 43, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 1985 times:
Quoting something (Reply 10):
No, I absolutely agree with you there, which is why I started this thread in the first place. If I can't find a way to get around ending up on the US's ''guest list'', I will not go. I'm looking for a legal work-around, a loophole if you will. I wouldn't enter the USA illegally for that purpose.
Oh jeez......
Quoting something (Reply 10):
It's obviously true that the majority of visitors don't have any noteworthy problems with the authorities. But neither do most women in Saudi Arabia. Does that mean I should just shut up, rock my burka and be happy my existence is being tolerated? That's not the philosophy I live my life by..
Its EXTREMELY rare...like getting struck by lightning rare...
I thought it would probably be England (seems so silly now I know), so I told him as much, and he informed that he was sorry, but I did not meet the eligibility requirements for entry into the US. I wrestled with my conscience for a bit before agreeing reluctantly to change my answer, at which point my passport was stamped and I was on my way.
sccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 4884 posts, RR: 32 Reply 45, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1935 times:
Quoting something (Reply 7): I am just extremely uncomfortable with the idea of having everything I do protocolled and stored inaccessible to me for 15 years, especially if I don't even know what is being protocolled and what information about me is accrued.
I am not fond of the TSA, and the notion that we even have an agency with an Orwellian name like "Department of Homeland Security" gives me the bejeebers...
...but your concerns, when you live in the most surveilled and recorded place on the planet, is remarkable.
We have our issues, but it is not "all that."
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
UAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 47, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1877 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 46): I'm sure it is. Cuba doesn't have boatloads of defecting Americans landing on it's shores.
Not to mention, countries in great economic distress care more about tourist dollars than tourist's security. Nor do they have the funds to properly perform security on the levels of economically healthy countries. (Yes, I know about the recessions, but we are talking night and day here in economic terms).
BTW, the original poster's opinions are just so out of line of what really happens here. If I, an American citizen, fly to New York, it is the culture of New York to be crass, loud, bossy, etc. That's what makes New York, New York. Same can be said of Chicago in some cases. It's part of that culture, it's not part of some government reason to treat foreigners poorly, or to take away your rights. Heck, you should see how American treat Americans on the streets of New York! It's fun if you realize that is how New York is! It's loud, bossy, and very "New York."
As far as taking your rights away, storing your info, blah blah blah, every country does this, including your own. To believe otherwise is selective ignorance on your part. Not going to try and explain it, because it has already been done above, but really, quitting your job, which no doubt you are successful at since it involves a lot of international travel, is completely asinine.
No one in the US is going to be rude to you because you are a foreign national. Commanding and at times abrasive, perhaps, but that is New York, and inner city in most every major metropolitan area. Unless you are paying for a Mercedes Car to take you around new york, expect it from the Subway, to just being a pedestrian on the street. If you want sugar-coated politeness, go to ATL, DFW, IAH, the Midwest, or west coasts. New York isn't going to give it to you unless you are paying out the rear end for stellar hotels and transportation.
In other words, get over yourself on this issue, get a pair, and just realize it's culture more than anything. No one cares what you are looking at on Google, Tweeting on twitter, what you buy, where you go, as long as you follow the laws of the land, commit no crimes, and not start riots or anti-government protests (which you shouldn't anyway, because it's not your government). For instance, if you Tweet "Go Kill Obama" - then yes, expect some form of investigation, as ANY American citizen would be investigated on threats to the president as well. Sheesh!
czbbflier From Canada, joined Jul 2006, 891 posts, RR: 3 Reply 48, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1839 times:
Quoting signol (Reply 19): and walk accross a frozen lake.
Not a good idea. You can see footprints in the snow right up to the nearest road. Better to use a boat in a different season. A row boat. Onyx black and coverd so night vision and infrared goggles don't pick up the boat.
Quoting lewis (Reply 22): the US Constitution applies to everyone within the jurisdiction of the United States
UAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 49, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1825 times:
And BTW, the ONLY time I've come across a full body scanner, in my 1,000 plus flights, is at TUL of all places! It's a simple process, and I did not feel violated at all, not one bit.
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 18936 posts, RR: 52 Reply 50, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1826 times:
Quoting lewis (Reply 22): As far as I know, the US Constitution applies to everyone within the jurisdiction of the United States, regardless of citizenship or residence status
Quoting lewis (Reply 27): was surprised that ESTA requires you to waive your right for protection by the most basic constitutional rights - at least according to the post I was quoting - and this is what I find very weird if not unacceptable. I do not use ESTA to enter the US and I do not recall agreeing to something similar in order to get my work visa.
For info - and supported by US Supreme Court decisions - Constitutional Rights DO NOT APPLY at border points.
Matter or fact, courts have found border check-points as a special category of land, essentially grey area where common laws are not applicable.
The USCBP, and other agencies have powers of search, seizure, detainment, and ultimately refusal of entry at border checkpoints beyond what normal law enforcement has in day to day abilities.
This is why people can have their items and persons searched and confiscated without the need of things like warrants, or other due process. By presumption by appearing at such border checkpoints, you voluntarily subject yourself to such further review.
And this is not new - there is case law going back to shortly after the founding of the nation - and the ability to government to inspect and review persons, and cargo's coming and going. Matter of fact there is even a law that allows border agencies to work and inspect people and goods as far inland as 100 miles of a national border entry point.
And no - this is also not a US thing. In Canada for instance courts have also found that citizens Charter Rights are severely limited against search and seizures needed to facilitate customs and security at border post.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
Pyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 3212 posts, RR: 30 Reply 51, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1808 times:
Quoting something (Thread starter): So my question is: Are there ways to enter the USA without losing my dignity and if so, what are they?
Portuguese citizen living in the U.S., probably cross the border around 8 times a year. Never had any hassle whatsoever (sometimes I have to wait a long time, but when they roll out the electronic system the name of which I am forgetting to other countries even that should be easier).
BTW, Portugal recently refused to extradite to the U.S. a convicted murderer who escaped from prison in the U.S. and hijacked a plane (yes, you read it right, he hijacked a plane). The excuse for not extraditing him was that he apparently was now a Portuguese citizen even though he applied for his nationality under a false identity. The fact that the U.S. has allowed Portugal to remain a visa waiver country despite the fact we clearly showed them we have no control whatsoever on whatever scum can apply for a Portuguese passport is frankly more than I can ask.
Quoting FingerLakerAv8r (Reply 12): I never understood why people were afraid to come visit the USA...
I have figured that out... U.S. main-stream media frequently puts out self-loathing articles denegrating everything about the U.S. to satisfy their EW (enemy within) requirements. Those articles get selectively picked up by fellow-minded journalists abroad who use them to paint a totally misleading image of the U.S. - after having lived in the U.S. for a few years, reading the coverage on U.S. topics in European newspapers is just pathetic, focusing in on totally non-issue articles that don't even get seriously picked up by their U.S: colleagues.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
Maverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 3807 posts, RR: 4 Reply 52, posted (3 months 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 1786 times:
Quoting something (Reply 10): Or to any of the people in the thousands of youtube videos that document police brutality.
Oh give me a friggen break. Greater than 95% of videos posted as "police brutality" are bogus. I've seen far harsher treatment of completely innocent people by your police, and that doesn't stop me from visiting your country.
Quoting LAXintl (Reply 50): For info - and supported by US Supreme Court decisions - Constitutional Rights DO NOT APPLY at border points.
Yes, but I believe the wording of the ESTA disclaimer leads one to believe that foreign visitors have zero rights outside of the border area, which is completely not true.
Quokkas From Australia, joined Jan 2012, 440 posts, RR: 6 Reply 53, posted (3 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 1755 times:
A couple of points. First, the ESTA waiver does not require you to renounce any Constitutional Rights. It simply states that if you wish to apply for pre-clearance and are denied entry to the US on arrival you accept that you do not have a right to appeal or to request a review. If you are denied pre-clearance before departure it does not prevent you applying for a visa by the usual method. Should you be admitted to the US you will enjoy the same protection under law as any other person legally present in the US.
Second, you already submit lots of personal information whenever you book a flight as many countries require APIS data. This information which the airlines must submit to the competent authority includes not only details of your name, age, nationality, passport number, date of issue and expiry, place of issue as might be expected but also all the PNR, giving access to additional information. May include who made the booking, how it was paid, any booking changes, first point of departure, points of transit, last point of departure and/ or arrival, seat allocation, number of bags checked in, the total weight, baggage receipt numbers, etc, etc. All this is in line with ICAO protocols.
As might be expected, all this information is cross-checked, may be shared with other agencies and data mining is used to flag possible suspect passengers who warrant further investigation. But this is not something limited to the US. It occurs in many countries and as passenger numbers grow we can expect greater use of APIS simply because processing passengers the old way would cripple the industry.
I did read a review of APIS in relation to its voluntary adoption by Amtrak and passenger coach services on the US CBP website, so it seems that you may still need to provide some information anyway if you use one of those methods to enter from Canada.
ltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 11686 posts, RR: 8 Reply 54, posted (3 months 3 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 1731 times:
Even if traveling to Canada by air, I believe many of the same rules apply as to airline security and information that is needed to be given. There is no getting around the intrusive qualifications you despise.
If I travel to Europe, the USA government requires the same standards to get on a plane. Within Europe, some countries used to require one to have their hotel stay registered with the local police authorities. In many areas of Europe, street cameras are all over urban areas, mainly to combat terrorism and crime. I would be reluctant to travel to Greece or many other countries due to political and social unrest. Within the USA, I would be more afraid of street crime and violence, not of 'intrusive' policies.
OA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 23091 posts, RR: 60 Reply 55, posted (3 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 1709 times:
Quoting UAL747 (Reply 49): And BTW, the ONLY time I've come across a full body scanner, in my 1,000 plus flights, is at TUL of all places! It's a simple process, and I did not feel violated at all, not one bit.
On my recent trip to MIA/SJU there was one in operation at SJU and I opted out , no big deal and the staff were friendly as was the immigration officer. I have to say I was apprehensive before I left purely because I had not been to the States for years but I was pleasantly surprised and would not be worried again . I did find the lines long for customs at SJU Cruise port though but the rest of the checks at MIA and departing SJU were fine.
Quoting Pyrex (Reply 51): after having lived in the U.S. for a few years, reading the coverage on U.S. topics in European newspapers is just pathetic, focusing in on totally non-issue articles that don't even get seriously picked up by their U.S: colleagues.
Or the smart person watches all news media from Europe and USA / Middle East etc...and then makes their own balanced opinion. Never take any media for gold.
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 54): I would be reluctant to travel to Greece or many other countries due to political and social unrest.
I can assure you just like my initial apprehension travelling to the USA ,travelling to any country in Europe including Greece is safe for the vast majority of tourists.
OLYMPIC AIR - ΟΛΥΜΠΙΑΚΗ "Η ΕΛΛΑΔΑ ΨΗΛΑ" "GREECE FLYING HIGH"
OzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2355 posts, RR: 5 Reply 56, posted (3 months 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 1692 times:
I really don't understand the logic of American posters drawing on their own experience of entering the USA as citizens to refute the claims of others as to what they experience entering the USA as non-Americans. Don't you get it? What is being claimed is that as non-Americans, subjected to very DIFFERENT treatment, including a wholesale written renunciation of rights, protocols reserved elsewhere for someone being arrested by the police (fingerprints, agressive questioning, etc), often abusive treatment by Border Protection (although this aspect has improved), some non-Americans feel they are compromising on their dignity.
Saying this is all necessary because of 9/11 is quite rich: ALL of the 9/11 terrorists would have been spared this treatment today, as they were ALL on DOMESTIC flights of US airlines and were US residents. I like how agressive treatment of overseas arriving visitors is the logical control for what was an entirely domestic event and failure of domiestic alirport security.
To the OP however, I as an Australian citizen entering the UK, am subjected to systematic borderline abusive treatment by your Immigration Officers every time I visit. I have been tempted to feel the same way about the UK that you do about the US.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
windy95 From Israel, joined Dec 2008, 2141 posts, RR: 6 Reply 57, posted (3 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 1682 times:
Quoting something (Thread starter): Are there other people out here with similar problems as me?
Not to many. You should see the planeloads of Brits, Germans, Koreans, Japanese and all types of South Americans unloading everyday in Orlando and Tampa. All without a complaint. And on top of that they even have the nerve to buy timeshares, condos and homes all without the Stasi takeing them out back with a rubber hose and beating them.
Quoting something (Thread starter): Are there ways to enter the USA without losing my dignity and if so, what are they? Because if there aren't, and I've made this clear to my current employer, there's no way he'll see me state-side.
The answer is no unless you come across the southern border with the illegals then it is okay to enter this country without a passport or being searched. You can then also receive free health care, a job and a tax refund.
Quoting something (Reply 7): rule the USA out as a vacation destination though
Just like I have ruled out Europe due to the excess taxation. Cheaper and easier to visit other Continents.
Quoting something (Reply 7): But surrendering my entire privacy, and having all of that monitored and saved in a database?
Is not London surrounded by a million cameras?
Quoting something (Reply 7): But when I am asked to agree that I will not be protected by the most basic constitutional rights as a visitor
Quokkas From Australia, joined Jan 2012, 440 posts, RR: 6 Reply 58, posted (3 months 3 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 1663 times:
Quoting windy95 (Reply 57): Since when do non citizens get that right?
Persons legally in the US are afforded the protection of law regardless of their citizenship status. People present illegally may find things a bit different.
I agree that something is being a bit over cautious and sensitive but one reads the number of posts from US citizens ranting about how their civil liberties are being infringed by the "nudiscope" and the "freedom grope", alleged violations of the 4th Amendment or whatever. It seems that barely a week goes by without a US poster pointing to an article about an old lady having her sanitary pads inspected or an old man being yanked out of a wheelchair. In the light of these postings by, presumably otherwise well-balanced, US members is it not understandable that a person who has never enjoyed a visit to the US might feel a little apprehensive?
jwenting From Netherlands, joined Apr 2001, 10213 posts, RR: 24 Reply 59, posted (3 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 1635 times:
Quoting flymia (Reply 20): Visitors should get full consitutional rights? I highly doubt when I go to the UK I get all the rights someone from their would get.
You'd get the same rights to protection from unreasonable search and seizure (which is protected for US citizens under the constitution...) as UK citizens. By signing an ESTA waiver you lose that, you're not fair game for unlimited detention by any DHS Agent or cop in the country, or for having them take your belongings for any reason or no reason whatsoever.
And that's just the start of it.
I've decided as well to not visit the US until this idiocy stops and foreigners are no longer automatically treated as terrorists. North Korea is right now more friendly to foreign visitors than is the US.
Quokkas From Australia, joined Jan 2012, 440 posts, RR: 6 Reply 60, posted (3 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 1616 times:
Quoting jwenting (Reply 59): you're not fair game for unlimited detention by any DHS Agent or cop in the country, or for having them take your belongings for any reason or no reason whatsoever.
Maybe you mean "you are fair game" ?
But is there any evidence for this? ESTA applies only to pre-clearance procedures. If you arrive at a airport in the US and they have grounds to suspect that you are barred from entry for some reason you may be detained. True.
If however, you are admitted you have the same rights as any other person who has been lawfully admitted to the US. Now,if you attract the attention of law enforcement you may be arrested. The same would apply if you had arrived under the visa application system.
But I wonder how different this is to alleged illegal immigrants being arrested and held in detention while their status is determined in other countries, including my own. In Europe countries that are members of the Schengen agreement still allow checks to be carried out to determine whether people might have entered illegally. For example, when the fighting was going on in Libya French officials checked to make sure that people moving from Italy into France were entitled to, despite the Schengen Treaty suggesting that movement between those states that have signed the agreement is free after the initial point of entry.
Your final point I find a bit bizarre. Things may have changed but when close friends of mine visited North Korea they were required to hand over their phones and were accompanied by an official guide wherever they went. I admit that this was about three years ago and things may have changed, but I do not recall the US ever insisting that mobile phones be surrendered or that you must be shadowed everywhere you go.
The restrictions may be irksome: let's not exaggerate them.
Bongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 2575 posts, RR: 2 Reply 61, posted (3 months 3 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 1604 times:
In July I will be boarding a plane to Florida, when I deplane at MCO I will be a guest of the USA, it is not my right to enter as I am a foreign national, rather it is a privilege. I have already given my personal details to British Airways, indeed they are held on their system for my convenience in order to save me the effort of inputting them each time I fly. In addition I have now completed my ESTA which grants me permission to step on the plane at LGW.
I would like to think of myself as a law abiding person of reasonable standing with no secrets to hide, bearing this in mind what objection could I have to not only providing this information, but to it being stored for a period of time ?
I would suggest to anyone from any nation who wishes to travel abroad, remember that entry is a privilege and you might then answer the questions with the correct attitude. If you aren't prepared to do so, stop at home.
Not exactly since the highjackers were not from the US, it was an intelligence failure.
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 61): In July I will be boarding a plane to Florida, when I deplane at MCO I will be a guest of the USA, it is not my right to enter as I am a foreign national, rather it is a privilege.
Great post
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 61): I would suggest to anyone from any nation who wishes to travel abroad, remember that entry is a privilege and you might then answer the questions with the correct attitude. If you aren't prepared to do so, stop at home.
Another great statement, it is not someones "right" to visit another country.
Crossing a border you do lose any rights to resist a search and of course the country you are trying to travel in has the right to turn you away if they wish. Just like I have the right to not let anyone who I want into my home or car.
It seems that the OP has not really commented much anymore, maybe he realized his statements were a bit out of line.
To the OP.. Do you still plan on not coming to the US? Have some of the opinions changed your mind at all? I am interested to see if you still feel the same on this matter.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
I am repeating myself but anyway... Can you provide me a source that says non-citizens do not get protection from the Constitution? I am talking about due process, freedom of speech, the right to remain silent etc. Based on the status of the non-citizen, the punishment for small crimes may be immediate deportation and I am not talking about rights that are reserved for citizens such as the right to bear arms. I am talking about the basic rights the Constitution guarantees. Correct me if I am wrong but I thought the law of the land applies equally to all the people that are in a country legally.
skysurfer From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2004, 1131 posts, RR: 17 Reply 64, posted (3 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 1556 times:
Quoting something (Reply 7): But I've never crossed the Canadian-USA border and don't know if I'd still need to fill out the ESTA to enter the USA this way?
I used to cross numerous times at the 1000 Islands crossing. I never had a problem and after the customary questioning it was: park the car, head into the office, explain where I was going, why, where I was coming from, what I did for a job and (this became new) the address i'd be visiting/staying at. Buy the visa (valid for 3 months) and off you go on your merry way.
I hate to say it but I actually had more hassle from a Canadian custom's guy than any US custom's personnel.
The only time i've had a bad experience with US officials is flying MSP when a woman treated me like an idiot as they were taking a digital scan of my finger...no need in talking to me like a 5 year old at all.
I don't agree nor like all of the security measures/rules but if I want to visit the states i've no choice but to be compliant. If not, well.....I can't go!
Stu
Edited to say I reside in Ontario, Canada but am from the UK.
[Edited 2012-02-03 09:41:37]
In the dark you can't see ugly, but you can feel fat
zckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 245 posts, RR: 0 Reply 65, posted (3 months 3 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 1552 times:
Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 56): I really don't understand the logic of American posters drawing on their own experience of entering the USA as citizens
Note not everybody's flag here matches their country of citizenship
Quoting jwenting (Reply 59): By signing an ESTA waiver you lose that, you're not fair game for unlimited detention by any DHS Agent or cop in the country, or for having them take your belongings for any reason or no reason whatsoever.
Nobody has yet shown me this mythical text which signs away all your rights. All we've had is a bit of text which waives your rights to appeal the decision to turn you away if the DHS so chooses. So what?
Quoting jwenting (Reply 59): I've decided as well to not visit the US until this idiocy stops and foreigners are no longer automatically treated as terrorists. North Korea is right now more friendly to foreign visitors than is the US.
If you, for example, took a photo of a plane in North Korea, there's a reasonable chance you'd be locked up and put to work every day until you starved or died of exhaustion. How is your statement even remotely rational?
vikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 6516 posts, RR: 29 Reply 66, posted (3 months 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 1514 times:
Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 56): I really don't understand the logic of American posters drawing on their own experience of entering the USA as citizens to refute the claims of others as to what they experience entering the USA as non-Americans.
Quoting something (Reply 10): Or to any of the people in the thousands of youtube videos that document police brutality.
Quoting something (Reply 10): Please visit any sizeable spotter-forum in the USA you can find and you will see they have a dedicated ''Run Ins With The Law'' sub-section, where members discuss issues they've been having with the police and security at the various spotting locations.
....applies to US citizens as well.
The spirit of Massachusetts is the spirit of America!
Docpepz From Singapore, joined May 2001, 1894 posts, RR: 4 Reply 67, posted (3 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 1467 times:
My passport has stamps from Iran, Oman, the UAE, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Egypt. I've entered the USA twice in the past 6 months and both times, immigration officers didn't even look at me twice. NYC was full of Arab tourists when I was in there in July.
LAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 18936 posts, RR: 52 Reply 68, posted (3 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 1434 times:
Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 61): I would suggest to anyone from any nation who wishes to travel abroad, remember that entry is a privilege and you might then answer the questions with the correct attitude. If you aren't prepared to do so, stop at home.
As they say, when in Rome.....
So unless people are willing to jump through the hoops required, and accept the law of the land whether in the US, UK, Singapore, UAE, Russia or North Korea, stay at home.
Travel and entry into other nations is indeed a great privilege, not a right by an means.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
photopilot From Cuba, joined Jul 2002, 2418 posts, RR: 22 Reply 69, posted (3 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 1416 times:
Quoting UAL747 (Reply 47): it is the culture of New York to be crass, loud, bossy, etc. That's what makes New York, New York. Same can be said of Chicago in some cases. It's part of that culture, it's not part of some government reason to treat foreigners poorly, or to take away your rights. Heck, you should see how American treat Americans on the streets of New York! It's fun if you realize that is how New York is! It's loud, bossy, and very "New York."
Perhaps people find this repugnant because they come from countries where good manners, politeness and being friendly is the norm, not the exception. It's really a question of being civil and frankly, it's amazing how low down the civility scale some cultures can fall and still think themselves acceptable.
Quoting Quokkas (Reply 58): Persons legally in the US are afforded the protection of law regardless of their citizenship status.
Quoting lewis (Reply 63): Can you provide me a source that says non-citizens do not get protection from the Constitution? I am talking about due process, freedom of speech, the right to remain silent etc. Based on the status of the non-citizen, the punishment for small crimes may be immediate deportation and I am not talking about rights that are reserved for citizens such as the right to bear arms. I am talking about the basic rights the Constitution guarantees. Correct me if I am wrong but I thought the law of the land applies equally to all the people that are in a country legally.
Quoting zckls04 (Reply 65): Nobody has yet shown me this mythical text which signs away all your rights. All we've had is a bit of text which waives your rights to appeal the decision to turn you away if the DHS so chooses. So what?
Boy guys.... do a little reading on the National Defense Authorization Act that gives US authorities the right to strip all rights away from a person and hold them WITHOUT CHARGE, WITHOUT TRIAL, and WITHOUT APPEAL forever!!!!!
Why on earth would any rational person present themselves at a US border point (who cares mode of travel) for admission to the USA and face what could be the loss of your freedom...FOREVER!!!! The scariest part is that you (foreigner or American citizen) have absolutely no recourse, no appeal, no nothing.... forever! Think about that then try to tell my you're living in "The Land of the Free"!!!!
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 2697 posts, RR: 25 Reply 70, posted (3 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 1404 times:
Quoting photopilot (Reply 69): Perhaps people find this repugnant because they come from countries where good manners, politeness and being friendly is the norm, not the exception. It's really a question of being civil and frankly, it's amazing how low down the civility scale some cultures can fall and still think themselves acceptable.
Everything is an attack against America with you. I'm well traveled and I have seen good and bad in all cultures, probably the rudest guy was in Luxembourg but I'm not gonna bash everyone in Luxembourg because there are some great people there. Never had a problem with "repugnant" NYCers, but whatever
zckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 245 posts, RR: 0 Reply 71, posted (3 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 1400 times:
Quoting photopilot (Reply 69): Perhaps people find this repugnant because they come from countries where good manners, politeness and being friendly is the norm, not the exception. It's really a question of being civil and frankly, it's amazing how low down the civility scale some cultures can fall and still think themselves acceptable.
After this load of xenophobic crap I can't believe I'm dignifying you with an answer, but.....
Quoting photopilot (Reply 69): Boy guys.... do a little reading on the National Defense Authorization Act that gives US authorities the right to strip all rights away from a person and hold them WITHOUT CHARGE, WITHOUT TRIAL, and WITHOUT APPEAL forever!!!!!
Have a valium and calm down. The NDAA has nothing to do with ESTA, which was the OP's original concern, and as you state below (and contrary to what the media would have you believe) applies to US citizens just as much as non-citizens. It's a poorly thought out law which almost nobody in the US agrees with, but if you genuinely believe you are in danger of indefinite detention the next time you fly to the USA then put the valium back down again and find something stronger.
Quoting photopilot (Reply 69): Why on earth would any rational person present themselves at a US border point (who cares mode of travel) for admission to the USA and face what could be the loss of your freedom...FOREVER!!!!
"Rationality" is about weighing risk. It seems to me that you are unable to do that. Why would any rational person get on a plane or in a car? You could lose your life!
I agree totally, a man such as yourself has no place in America, you should stick with your instincts.
Quoting GBLKD (Reply 2): Do I really want myself, wife, and 12 year old son poentially treated like criminals on our holiday?
Read Pravda much? Or whatever the Iranian news agency is?
I fly BA 3-6 times a month between London and America, the Brits often are through immigration before the Americans are. Almost everyone of them I meet is in love with the place, which seems odd given they are 'treated like criminals' in at least someone's imagination.
luckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1409 posts, RR: 0 Reply 73, posted (3 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1247 times:
Quoting photopilot (Reply 69): Quoting UAL747 (Reply 47):
it is the culture of New York to be crass, loud, bossy, etc. That's what makes New York, New York. Same can be said of Chicago in some cases. It's part of that culture, it's not part of some government reason to treat foreigners poorly, or to take away your rights. Heck, you should see how American treat Americans on the streets of New York! It's fun if you realize that is how New York is! It's loud, bossy, and very "New York."
Perhaps people find this repugnant because they come from countries where good manners, politeness and being friendly is the norm, not the exception. It's really a question of being civil and frankly, it's amazing how low down the civility scale some cultures can fall and still think themselves acceptable.
New York is a country???? That is news indeed!!! Beyond that...some of the rudest, most abrupt people on the planet hail from the UK, so the user shouldn't have an issue with that.
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 1): I'm sure Puerto Rico is full of TSA too, but Toronto may work.
My worst TSA experience was actually at the San Juan airport (concourse B security for those who care). My bag and computer bag was scanned four times. Granted...I had a laptop, Kindle. and two external hard drives in there, so I can't complain. I hadn't had any issues the day before with the Kindle or hard drives when I cleared in ATL, so I pulled out my laptop and didn't give the rest a second thought. Oops. I did, however, get a brand new tube of toothpaste confiscated. The whole thing took like ten minutes. In Toronto you preclear with the same customs and border patrol rules that you do stateside.
I'm also curious how often you travel to Australia? How different is their ETA from the US' ESTA?
seb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 8614 posts, RR: 19 Reply 74, posted (3 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1206 times:
Quoting something (Reply 7): But when I am asked to agree that I will not be protected by the most basic constitutional rights as a visitor, have my every step monitored and may end up getting arrested and deported over a ridiculous post on Twitter?
I went to Mexico last year on a cruise. Puerto Vallarta, Mazatlan and Cabo. In Mazatlan, I felt like I would be shot at any second for no reason. I used the internet at a McDonalds there. The Mexican government tracked the one site I went to, probably. I sent a group e-mail to my family. Was I worried that the Feds in Mexico knew what I was up to? No. Why? Because I was doing nothing wrong. I read through the document American Customs makes us read and fill out. A lot of scary stuff in there. But, since I declared my 2 bottles of tequila and didn't have to declare my $20 worth of cheap Mexican trinkets, I didn't worry.
There are some things that are not worth my time worrying about. Routine things like border crossings and TSA screenings. These things happen. I do not do anything illegal, so I don't worry about them. I suggest you do the same!
Wheel of morality turn, turn, turn. Tell us the lesson that we should learn
mham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2557 posts, RR: 3 Reply 75, posted (3 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1173 times:
Quoting Pyrex (Reply 51): after having lived in the U.S. for a few years, reading the coverage on U.S. topics in European newspapers is just pathetic, focusing in on totally non-issue articles that don't even get seriously picked up by their U.S: colleagues.
Thanks for saying that, I see the same thing but of course, my opinion means little because of the flag next to my name. I am often surprised about the blatantly poor journalism about the US coming from countries who believe themselves superior. It is even more surprising the amount of people who believe it.
Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 56): I really don't understand the logic of American posters drawing on their own experience of entering the USA as citizens to refute the claims of others as to what they experience entering the USA as non-Americans.
But, have you understood the logic of the multiple posts from foreign travelers in this thread? How does their relatively easy experiences happen and where exactly are you seeing these differing opinions? Not in this thread.
Quoting Quokkas (Reply 58): I agree that something is being a bit over cautious and sensitive but one reads the number of posts from US citizens ranting about how their civil liberties are being infringed by the "nudiscope" and the "freedom grope", alleged violations of the 4th Amendment or whatever.
Perspective. What many people do not realize is that Americans have always been known for robust self-criticism. Problems arise when those who hear it feel that they need to chime in. We do a fine enough job as it is, we really don't need help from outside.
shamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 3757 posts, RR: 14 Reply 76, posted (3 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1086 times:
Quoting seb146 (Reply 3): Geez!! You all make us sound like a police state; like North Korea.
Hmmm... sorry, but the patriot act took America very sadly in that direction. But, and it's only fair to point out, you are not alone, many so called Free societies in the "Western World" have gone exactly the same way.
Quoting zckls04 (Reply 5): I don't have a lot of sympathy for this point of view to be honest. If you're not prepared to abide by the rules of the country you're visiting don't go.
I think that this is what the OP is suggesting. He simply finds that aspects of US entry requirements violate his personal ethical code, as he is quite entitled to do.
Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 56): Saying this is all necessary because of 9/11 is quite rich: ALL of the 9/11 terrorists would have been spared this treatment today, as they were ALL on DOMESTIC flights of US airlines and were US residents. I like how agressive treatment of overseas arriving visitors is the logical control for what was an entirely domestic event and failure of domiestic alirport security.
While the terrorists were allegedly Saudi, I agree to an extent - many security rules in the US are directed solely at International flights and not domestic ones (I'm not going to mention what they are for obvious reasons), which I find bizarre to a huge degree.
Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 56): To the OP however, I as an Australian citizen entering the UK, am subjected to systematic borderline abusive treatment by your Immigration Officers every time I visit. I have been tempted to feel the same way about the UK that you do about the US.
Unfortunately, you are right here. UK border staff can be complete arseholes when they want to be, along with the security staff, where rules are applied "BEYOND" the letter, to the point of the non application of ANY common sense whatsoever. As an Irish passport holder, I get no hassle from the UK border agency as I have a right of stay in the UK, but I have seen it metted out to the Ozzies on many occasions.
Quoting UAL747 (Reply 47): BTW, the original poster's opinions are just so out of line of what really happens here. If I, an American citizen, fly to New York, it is the culture of New York to be crass, loud, bossy, etc. That's what makes New York, New York. Same can be said of Chicago in some cases. It's part of that culture, it's not part of some government reason to treat foreigners poorly, or to take away your rights. Heck, you should see how American treat Americans on the streets of New York! It's fun if you realize that is how New York is! It's loud, bossy, and very "New York."
Well, forgive me then - but if someone is rude, crass, bossy to me, then I have every right to be rude, crass and bossy back. The unfortunate reality though is that if I do so to a TSA staff member or Immigration officer, I will likely be denied entry. So, sadly, I cannot engage in the local culture and it strictly goes one way, which is a little unfair I think you will agree.
To the OP, I understand exactly where you are coming from regarding aspects of the entry "experience" to the US. I absolutely detest having to give my fingerprints like some criminal, and I totally hate the US government for making me do it when I come from a country with such long and positive relations with the USA, but if you can swallow your pride just until you get out of the airport, you will find that some of your other concerns are unfounded, and it's actually a wonderfully relaxed place!
Rudeness is just part of the air travel experience in the US. You will experience it at least once on every trip in the US, be it from the airline staff, security staff, or immigration staff, and in fact usually someone will be SO rude to you, it will actually leave you breathless for a second.......BUT, and I can safely say, you will not experience it outside the airport.
Americans are some of the friendliest and most welcoming people around, so just give it a chance. You'll come home saying "Sure, the airport was a nightmare, but the US was awesome!"
Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 14050 posts, RR: 55 Reply 77, posted (3 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1083 times:
Quoting seb146 (Reply 3):
Geez!! You all make us sound like a police state; like North Korea.
Well, we're not quite North Korea yet. But we are a police state. More of our population is in prison than any other "democracy." Our police are armed like our military (the OWS response demonstrated that) and often treat civilians like enemy combatants.
My advice to foreigners would be stay out if you don't have to come. Your rights and liberties are far safer in your own country (unless you're from North Korea).
OzGlobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2355 posts, RR: 5 Reply 78, posted (3 months 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1018 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 75): Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 56):
I really don't understand the logic of American posters drawing on their own experience of entering the USA as citizens to refute the claims of others as to what they experience entering the USA as non-Americans.
But, have you understood the logic of the multiple posts from foreign travelers in this thread? How does their relatively easy experiences happen and where exactly are you seeing these differing opinions? Not in this thread.
As I hope everyone here knows, the treatment of non-US citizens on arrival is governed by different and additional protocols vs US citizens re-entering their country. Even if some posters here have been lucky enough to have smooth experiences as non-US citizens on arrival, the differing requirements are an objective fact. Hence my point that, objectively, the situations are not comparable and, do a search, you'll find hundreds of horror stories of non-US citizens treatment by US Immigration and Border Security under these procedures which do NOT apply to US citizens.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
windy95 From Israel, joined Dec 2008, 2141 posts, RR: 6 Reply 80, posted (3 months 2 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 952 times:
Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 78): Hence my point that, objectively, the situations are not comparable and, do a search, you'll find hundreds of horror stories of non-US citizens treatment by US Immigration and Border Security under these procedures which do NOT apply to US citizens.
But you still have millions over the year that have no problems. Including the many Brits and South Americans that are buying property here in Florida. If there was that much of a problem Disney and Universal would be closed. It is funny to hear a complaint like this from someone who lives in a country there are cameras on every part of the country. Big brother is watching everyone there but people are still complaining about a few extra hoops to cross to come into this country. Do i like the excess we have gone to on security in the name of protecting us, no. But it is not as extreme or as common as anyone would like to believe.
PanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 6513 posts, RR: 25 Reply 81, posted (3 months 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 925 times:
Getting a bit late into this discussion and did not read most of it, but: I checked the ESTA rules which is basically nothing else than the green form which was / is filled out on board. It has to be accepted and agreed and basically that you have no right to appeal if the CBP officer does not like your face and refuses admittance to the promised land. Agreeed, I am a citizen of a country that let's in almost anyone and certainly most Americans unless they are members of the American Nazi Party which we don't want to see here for good reasons.
Now, that's nothing new, has been the fine print before as well I guess. Once you're in the country you have the full rights and obligations as anybody else, inclduing the consitutional rights. That is agreed in the consular traties countries usually sign and ratify. As a European you have to be aware that the US is over policed, that you should not say NO to a police officer or argue the way you can do here in Germany.
They don't like that and get nasty , so, skip it. Better, not get involved with the guys in first place. If caught parking wroing, accept the ticket and be friendly. Simple rules. OK, the country has changed since 9/11 , which is a pity, they should not see a potential enemy in very visitor. Follow the rules, which may sometimes be funny but OK, they are prudes and donÄt like people to drink alcohol in the public and they don't know what they are missing.
UAL747 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 83, posted (3 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 788 times:
Okay okay. I just flew through LHR today as a "CONNECTING" passenger. I was frisked, to the point where the guy grabbed my underwear underneath my jeans and had a tug at them. I was like, OMG, this guy is seriously grabbing my underwear inside of my pants. So forgive me if I don't see the irony of your post regarding US security.
shamrock604 From Ireland, joined Sep 2007, 3757 posts, RR: 14 Reply 84, posted (3 months 2 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 788 times:
Quoting UAL747 (Reply 83): Okay okay. I just flew through LHR today as a "CONNECTING" passenger. I was frisked, to the point where the guy grabbed my underwear underneath my jeans and had a tug at them. I was like, OMG, this guy is seriously grabbing my underwear inside of my pants. So forgive me if I don't see the irony of your post regarding US security.
UAL
It's a fair point - UK security is pretty draconian, and you should try being crew passing through a British Airport - they just love giving you an even harder time than the passengers.
A recent frisk was a particularly uncomfortable experience - but i'd still take being felt up than being photographed naked.
Flown EI,FR,RE,EIR,VE,SI,TLA,BA,BE,BD,VX,MON,AF,YS,WX,KL,SK,LH,OK,OS,LX,IB,LTU,HLX,4U,SU,CO,DL,UA,AC,PR,MH,SQ,QF, EY, EK
georgetown From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 223 posts, RR: 1 Reply 85, posted (3 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 628 times:
I usually try to come up with well thought out and measured responses here, and I'm very glad that some have, but I'm really not going to bother this time. To the OP, please know that I do not mean this personally, but your view on the US is painfully ignorant. This is a backhanded way of trying to give you comfort, but you logic is consistent with refusing to fly on an A320 because they have crashed in the past. I have to admit that your naievete is such that it could very easily come off as contrived and that you have something to hide.
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