mham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2557 posts, RR: 3 Posted (3 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4334 times:
VW has let reporters drive the 2013 Jetta Hybrid and claim it will see 45 US mpg combined, ~8% higher than the Jetta TDI. A little short of the Prius but a significant milestone on their part. VW has sandwiched a 20 kW motor between a 1.4l turbo and a 7 speed gearbox fed by a small 1.1 kWh battery pack. It will drive the car up to 44 mph and 1.4 miles before the gas engine kicks in and will also be used as a boost assist in passing situations.
Today, rumors abound about BMW dropping the 335d in this market. They have 2 problems, the upcoming ActiveHybrid 3 series and the realization that their new 328i gasser nearly matches both efficiency and power of the 335d. Tom Plucinsky, BMW product communications manager, was quoted today, "The F30 328i has the same EPA rating as the 335d. We need to up our game if we're going to continue to offer a 3 Series diesel in the U.S."
Buick, sometimes mentioned as a possible diesel recipient, also released news today that their mild hybrid system, eAssist, will come standard equipment on the 2013 Regal, as it already is on the LaCrosse where it sees 25/37 mpg in a 3,800 lb car. Buicks LaCrosse eAssist includes a 15hp electric motor adding 70 lbs of torque for start and passing assist. Interestingly, the hybrid car only gained 6 pounds through smaller gas tank, more use of aluminum, etc. Price of the LaCrosse eAssist is the same as the V6 option.
flymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 5674 posts, RR: 6 Reply 1, posted (3 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4284 times:
This is pretty horrible news. I know BMW and VW will make a great hybrid and it will drive well like a TDI can. The top of the line VW in the US is a hybrid, a 370hp Turbo V6 SUV but still a hybrid. But unless it is a supercharged beast like the Touareg Hybrid I just hate them, think they are horrible just for what they stand for.
People honestly think they are saving the environment driving a hybrid but they are not. The amount of extra energy and man hours etc.. it takes to make a hybrid with the battery and mining, technology far out weighs the environmental impact it saves on less gas. A conventional car or better yet a TDI is much better for the world than a hybrid. But you will see commercials about saving the world and people saying look I am "green" I drive a hybrid.
Me driving a 10 year old 6,000lb Mercedes SUV getting 12mpg is better for the environment in the big picture than someone buying a new hybrid. TDI is the real winner IMO, too bad people just do not realize it.
Full electric cars: That is a different story. Those are good if anyone wants to deal with them.
Hopefully VW keeps the V6 TDI for the Touareg and it would be great to see Jeep get a TDI in there.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
cv640 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 946 posts, RR: 6 Reply 3, posted (3 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4221 times:
I just test drove a Golf TDI with a manual and was quite impressed. Smooth, quiet, and still fun to drive. It definitely changed my original thoughts on diesels.
MD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8227 posts, RR: 15 Reply 4, posted (3 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4214 times:
Quoting mham001 (Thread starter): VW has let reporters drive the 2013 Jetta Hybrid and claim it will see 45 US mpg combined, ~8% higher than the Jetta TDI.
If it's only 45 combined I'm betting it won't be as good as the current Jetta TDI is on the highway, especially with the manual. If you have commute on open roads and not stop and go traffic the current TDI might even still be a better choice. And you don't lose any interior space to the batteries.
mham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2557 posts, RR: 3 Reply 6, posted (3 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4199 times:
Quoting flymia (Reply 1): The amount of extra energy and man hours etc.. it takes to make a hybrid with the battery and mining, technology far out weighs the environmental impact it saves on less gas.
That is just not true. Have you considered the energy expended for one gallon of fuel? Estimates range up to 7 gallons of equivalent energy went into retrieving, refining and distributing that one gallon. Anyway, it goes far beyond just the environmental aspects.
Quoting flymia (Reply 1): Me driving a 10 year old 6,000lb Mercedes SUV getting 12mpg is better for the environment in the big picture than someone buying a new hybrid.
I agree with that, but not everybody can hold off on a new car. 13-14 million cars will be sold here this year.
Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 2): Oh look, a diesel bashing thread from a.nets resident diesel basher
Just reporting the news today. I've taken a lot of heat for saying that this was coming and now diesel manufacturers themselves are saying the same things. Gassers have closed the gap in efficiency and hybrids kill diesel. Notwithstanding the potential of a diesel series hybrid, diesel is dead in the US.
The news gets worse....
Mercedes-Benz has no interest in pursuing BMW down the diesel performance rabbit hole, according to Autocar. The publication spoke with Ola Kallenius, chairman of the board of management at Mercedes-Benz AMG, who said the company explored the idea of performance diesels in the past and found the concept too fraught with compromises to be worthwhile. Kallenius said gasoline engines have obvious advantages when it comes to weight, sound, agility and response. The AMG guru also pointed to the fact that the company's modern performance engines have borrowed considerable diesel technology, including direct injection and turbocharging, to reach their current power and efficiency levels.http://www.autoblog.com/2012/02/07/m...iesels-may-greenlight-911-fighter/
Fly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (3 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4190 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 6): Notwithstanding the potential of a diesel series hybrid
This is the only type of hybrid system I agree with. Prototypes have been tested with this system that get well over 100mpg. Yet I don't know WTF they're waiting to release them, they've (mainly volvo and other euro brands) been toying around with this concept for the last decade at least.
Parallel hybrids are stupid. They're heavy, have lame performance and still rely on rare, expensive, toxic metals batteries. With a diesel-electric you'd get all the advantages of an all-electric drive train minus the pathetic range and charging problems of an all electric car. Heck, trains have used that system in very large scale for half a century already.
But hybrids use fuel too and their numbers are not much better and sometimes worse than a TDI. That's my point, you add the amount of energy it takes for both the fuel and battery and extra technology. With a car your getting just the fuel. It is not like hybrids don't use gas. Yes a hybrid Jetta is better than a Chevy Suburban but it is not better than a 2.5L Jetta.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
mham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2557 posts, RR: 3 Reply 10, posted (3 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4120 times:
Quoting flymia (Reply 8): But hybrids use fuel too and their numbers are not much better and sometimes worse than a TDI. That's my point, you add the amount of energy it takes for both the fuel and battery and extra technology. With a car your getting just the fuel. It is not like hybrids don't use gas. Yes a hybrid Jetta is better than a Chevy Suburban but it is not better than a 2.5L Jetta.
It's not? The 2.5l is an outdated motor for which they have already announced a replacement. If a hybrid can't beat that, those engineers in Wolfsburg must have made a serious error in judgement.
The only claim so far by VW is a combined 45 mpg for the hybrid on the US test. The 2.5l Jetta gets 26 combined. Average mileage might be 12,000/year. The hybrid will save 195 gallons of gas/year. Account for the amount of energy saved by not refining 195 gallons, conservatively, 4x for 780 gallons/year not used. For an 8 year period (the amount of time the batteries are generally warranted), the average driver would save 6,240 equivalent gallons of energy.
What evidence do you have that the 1.1 kWh pack in the Jetta consumes more than 6,240 gallons of energy to produce? edit: not all of the efficiency of the hybrid comes from that tiny battery pack, but I still look forward to your evidence of great energy losses from battery manufacturing.
It gets much better than this though. All three of these manufacturers are already missing the boat. Prius and the Volt have beat them to the punch. They need an onboard charge controller and a plug. Plugins are the mid-future. Once people realize that electric is smooth, quiet and economical, they are going to ask why they are limited to only charging by a ICE burning dirty smelly chemicals when most of their driving can be accomplished with electric only. Word is getting around from Volt owners who are scheduling their next fuel purchase months from now. This is a wonderful thing.
prebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 5810 posts, RR: 56 Reply 11, posted (3 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4105 times:
Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 7): With a diesel-electric you'd get all the advantages of an all-electric drive train minus the pathetic range and charging problems of an all electric car. Heck, trains have used that system in very large scale for half a century already.
Diesel-electric trains are much older than half a century - came already some 90 years ago, and were mass produced during the 30'es.
They have the disadvantage to lose at least 10% on the power generator, plus 10% on the electric motor = minimum 20%.
Therefore (at least here) diesel trains from 1991 and later have gearbox transmission with clutch much like an ordinary manual car, but automatic (electronic and electro-mechanical) operation of clutch and gear change.
Going diesel-electric in cars would efficiency wise be a step backwards - not much better than the old-fashioned automatic gear with hydraulic torque converter. The dual clutch gear, as pioneered by VW, is the way forward since it offers the same efficiency as ordinary manual gear.
Diesel-electric locomotives are still viable for heavy freight trains, especially in not so flat countries.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
Fly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 12, posted (3 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4049 times:
Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 11):
Going diesel-electric in cars would efficiency wise be a step backwards - not much better than the old-fashioned automatic gear with hydraulic torque converter.
It can't possibly be that bad. This diesel electric gets 128mpg:
Granted, the diesel engine doesn't necessarily run full time.
I can't remember who it was, nor can I find the article, but I do recall seeing another diesel electric series hybrid prototype (similar to the C30 above) that would use no batteries and the engine would run continuously (aside from a start/stop system); it still got upwards of 100mpg. You don't need a ridiculously large engine to drive a generator for a hatchback. You make a small diesel and optimize it to a certain RPM and hook it up to a generator and drive small electric motors at each wheel.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 11547 posts, RR: 27 Reply 13, posted (3 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4025 times:
Quoting mham001 (Thread starter): "The F30 328i has the same EPA rating as the 335d. We need to up our game if we're going to continue to offer a 3 Series diesel in the U.S."
Good thing that they just upped their game on the X6, X5, and 5 Series then. The new M Performance line diesels should be more than competitive with the Audi S cars, considering that the M550xd will outrun the Audi S5, the S6 will have its work cut out for it.
Of course those wonderful models might not make it to the US because of draconian environmental regulations.
Quoting flymia (Reply 1): it would be great to see Jeep get a TDI in there.
They had their diesel Liberty, which was just horrid.
Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 5): That's too bad. I've been hoping for diesel to get more common here.
I'm not going to complain about GM not putting a diesel in the Buick. When they tried it with Oldsmobile they set diesel powered cars back a decade or two.
Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 7): Parallel hybrids are stupid. They're heavy, have lame performance and still rely on rare, expensive, toxic metals batteries.
Those are precisely the hybrids that make sense. Use a mini-battery pack as a KERS type boost, and such a system could be weight neutral with standard all wheel drive anyway. The only thing that would be nice is if they could package a flywheel into a consumer car rather than a battery. Porsche has the formula right with the 911 and 918.
Quoting mham001 (Reply 10): Word is getting around from Volt owners who are scheduling their next fuel purchase months from now.
Word is travelling so fast that people aren't even trying to go to their Chevy dealers because they believe they can't possibly land a Volt. And the poor dealers have been forced to turn down some or all of their Volt allocations because of it.
Of course, you could buy a Volt for $32000, or get a Mini Countryman S and 48000 miles worth of gas (at $3.50 per gallon). Or a Ford Focus and 60000 miles of gas or a Fiesta and 113000 miles of fuel. If performance is more your thing, you could always buy a VW GTI and drive it 27000 miles by the time you've spent Volt money and the Focus ST will likely be more than competitive with that too. And that's before you even consider used models.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
B777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 719 posts, RR: 3 Reply 14, posted (3 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3989 times:
The new 3-series will be offered for sale in Germany on the 11th of this month. The 320d Efficient Dynamics version will offer 163hp, 380nm of torque, and fitted with the 8-speed autobox will burn 4.1L/100km on the combined cycle while emitting 109g CO2/km. 4.1L/100km translates to roughly 57.3 MPG (US), casually flipping the bird to the frutility of hybrids.
As a sop to the Americans the 3-series will become available next year as a hybrid, but I very much doubt it'll burn less fuel than the 320d ED.
From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
racko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4736 posts, RR: 23 Reply 15, posted (3 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3962 times:
Hybrids do well when it comes to inner-city driving, Diesels do well when it comes to long range driving.
Quoting B777LRF (Reply 14):
The new 3-series will be offered for sale in Germany on the 11th of this month. The 320d Efficient Dynamics version will offer 163hp, 380nm of torque, and fitted with the 8-speed autobox will burn 4.1L/100km on the combined cycle while emitting 109g CO2/km. 4.1L/100km translates to roughly 57.3 MPG (US), casually flipping the bird to the frutility of hybrids.
From what I understand, American customers are not enthusiastic about relatively "small" engines. In the US, the entry-level engine for a VW Golf is a 2.5 liter, here it's a 1.2 liter...
mah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 30441 posts, RR: 77 Reply 16, posted (3 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3926 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 6): Just reporting the news today. I've taken a lot of heat for saying that this was coming and now diesel manufacturers themselves are saying the same things. Gassers have closed the gap in efficiency and hybrids kill diesel. Notwithstanding the potential of a diesel series hybrid, diesel is dead in the US.
You're quite hysterical. Diesel sales in the United States have skyrocketed. Volkwagen yesterday introduced the 2013 Beetle TDI. Mercedes-Benz just put the S-Class diesel on sale in the states, while GM is adding Cruze and ATS diesels; Chrysler a Grand Cherokee diesel; and Mercedes-Benz will add a GLK diesel.
Diesel is anything but dead, and hybrids don't kill diesel, because hybrids are significantly more expensive.
Furthermore, U.S. EPA testing does diesel mileage no justice. A Jetta TDI gets 50-55 MPG highway with ease, but until the EPA develops a system that accurately test diesel mileage, VW can't advertise it's real life MPG.
Mercedes-Benz has no interest in pursuing BMW down the diesel performance rabbit hole, according to Autocar. The publication spoke with Ola Kallenius, chairman of the board of management at Mercedes-Benz AMG, who said the company explored the idea of performance diesels in the past and found the concept too fraught with compromises to be worthwhile. Kallenius said gasoline engines have obvious advantages when it comes to weight, sound, agility and response. The AMG guru also pointed to the fact that the company's modern performance engines have borrowed considerable diesel technology, including direct injection and turbocharging, to reach their current power and efficiency levels.http://www.autoblog.com/2012/02/07/m...iesels-may-greenlight-911-fighter/
You're using a quote from the chairman of AMG as proof that Diesels are dying in the US. Couldn't you have found one from the CEO of Ferrari, just to complete the picture?
Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 2): Oh look, a diesel bashing thread from a.nets resident diesel basher
That's all there is to this.
Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
mham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2557 posts, RR: 3 Reply 18, posted (3 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3759 times:
Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 12): It can't possibly be that bad. This diesel electric gets 128mpg:
Except that concept is not using a diesel motor.
Quoting B777LRF (Reply 14): translates to roughly 57.3 MPG (US), casually flipping the bird to the frutility of hybrids.
Here we go again, throwing out numbers that do not correlate to this market. Knock ~20% off if you want to compare mileage tests.
Quoting mah4546 (Reply 16): hybrids are significantly more expensive.
In many or most cases, that is factually incorrect, although somewhat difficult to track with package options, especially since nobody has a hybrid, a diesel and a petrol to compare yet. VW will soon.. The Buick LaCrosse eAssist for example, is the same price as the V6 gas model. GM is introducing scale into the market and prices are falling. Battery prices continue to drop as well. The Prius also seems to be quite competitive.
For comparative purposes, I recommend this site. Try comparing the Prius with any VW diesel. You will be very surprised. Or try the LaCrosse against the E350 Bluetec... http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.shtml
Quoting mah4546 (Reply 16): Furthermore, U.S. EPA testing does diesel mileage no justice. A Jetta TDI gets 50-55 MPG highway with ease, but until the EPA develops a system that accurately test diesel mileage, VW can't advertise it's real life MPG.
VW would love to change the test to focus on long, steady, monotonous drives. Problem is, that scenario does not reflect day-to-day life here. The average commute is ~16 miles.
Quoting aloges (Reply 17): You're using a quote from the chairman of AMG as proof that Diesels are dying in the US.
No, that just happened to be in the news yesterday. I used the quote because he mentioned some insight about the advantages and recent advances of petrol engines and why they would not bother with diesel, some things often forgotten by diesel fanboys.
aloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 7589 posts, RR: 51 Reply 19, posted (3 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3726 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 18): why they would not bother with diesel
Precisely my point, they won't bother with a Diesel engine, them being AMG. While I do admire their technological achievements, they are not exactly a player in the mass market. IIRC, the BMW M Diesels aren't even for sale yet, so perhaps AMG will change their mind if those prove to be a success.
ACDC8 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 7587 posts, RR: 47 Reply 20, posted (3 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3718 times:
Quoting racko (Reply 15): In the US, the entry-level engine for a VW Golf is a 2.5 liter
Its actually the only engine offered unless you go TDI or turbo with the GTI .Same with the Mk4's, they were only offered with the 2.0 unless you went TDI or GTI.
mham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2557 posts, RR: 3 Reply 24, posted (3 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3648 times:
Quoting fruitbat (Reply 22): Or, more to the point, Haters never gonna surf a real torque wave!
You've never experienced torque like an electric motor produces. It shames any ICE from 0 rpms.
25 BMI727: There used to be a time when Porsche would never build an SUV and Ferrari would never build a car with all wheel drive too. The M diesels won't reall
26 dazbo5: Actually, that's factually incorrect. There's the Toyota Auris. Base model petrol: £16,730. Base model diesel: £18,230. Base model hybrid £20,295.
28 fruitbat: I know; and when I can get an electric car here in the UK that (a) does 500 miles between charges (b) charges up from zero to full overnight (c) can
29 dazbo5: I've driven them (Auris), I know. I was just pointing out there are models out their to compare pricing between petrol, diesel and hybrid models. Of
30 prebennorholm: This is not a diesel-electric car as you mention in reply #7. It is a rechargeable hybrid. It does 124mpg (not 128) on a 93 miles distance when you s
31 WildcatYXU: I realize that I'm repeating myself, but I have yet to drive a car that comes even close to the test mileage in real life. I don't know who designed
32 RayChuang: I think in the end, it all comes down to this: the enormous cost of making turbodiesel engines meet the EPA Tier 2 Bin 5 emissions certification, whic
33 flanker: Would still take a diesel over any of these Eco shit boxes. I would have loved to get an A3 diesel, but because of the Eco crowd they only offer it in
34 Flighty: This is (mostly) highly dubious at least according to thread starter and this humble poster as well. Agree. It was a $5000 premium over Euro vehicles
35 B777LRF: Right-o. Do make sure you let the people of Germany, France, Spain etc. know that, since roughly 70% of all the cars they buy are diesel powered. But
36 LOT767-300ER: Congrats, youve just described 50% of the European market. I do say well done chap!
37 KiwiRob: In the Norwegian market the base prices (without option) for the Touareg are as follows: V6 TDi 204hp 779,300 NOK V6 TDi 245hp 820,400 NOK V8 TDi 340
38 LOT767-300ER: Any insider info how much the KY to go along with those prices? Dealer throws that in for free or...? If its the 2.5L Jetta I can safely say the posi
40 WildcatYXU: It's a Golf. However, I couldn't care less about the cigarette lighter's position (or of any other accessory's for that matter). Handling, engine pow
41 flanker: Thank you kind sir. I fully agree. Here is a pic from my personal collection to make you happy. Lube when youre getting your ass rammed. Others might
42 Flighty: They are scientific. Usually people do not correctly multiply the mileage ratings to get total. In metric your l/100km are easy to multiply. Our USA
43 dazbo5: I've never driven a car that achieves the manufacturers fuel efficiency figures, but I've been close to them. In Europe at least, they are test labor
44 WildcatYXU: I'm afraid you misunderstood me. I can't even reach the highway rating even when I zero the board computer after entering the highway and I often hav
45 mirrodie: That will keep me laughing a while. Much like any thread started by the OP.
46 Flighty: OK that suggests maybe an ethanol blended gasoline, cold weather, or just conditions outside what most people do. Our US EPA ratings got adjusted dow
47 KiwiRob: It's Norway you get screwed when you buy anything here, peoples butts are so loose from the screwing lubricant isn't needed.
48 aloges: To be fair, the average pay isn't low either.
49 njxc500: My work truck has been diesel powered since 1998, and I'll never look back. It is my opinion that a diesel engine is inherently simpler, and with a go
50 flanker: Agreed, and with that much TQ u can pull Neptune
51 aloges: I bet its economy is still excellent when you floor it... oh wait, no.
52 mham001: That just makes the European test look that much worse. Anecdotally, I get better in my car and worse (horribly) in my work truck. They are best just
53 KiwiRob: In what world is this happening, cause it's not in this one. When you add in the electric motor and battery which are part of the drive train it's si
54 mham001: And yet, despite dragging around all that dead weight at highway speed, it still gets 15%!! better highway mileage than the Jetta TDI. You must have
55 KiwiRob: It might live but how many people are going to buy something with such a limited range and at such high cost?
56 racko: Taken from the official homepages: Toyota Prius 4,0l/100km BMW 320d ED 4,1l/100km VW Jetta 1.6 TDI BlueMotion 4,2l/100km The EU driving cycle is 2/3
57 brouaviation: Has Diesel ever been truly alive in the US?
58 njxc500: Honestly, I had no idea the prius was a rotary engine....why is that not publicized? Absolutely not...GM put out the worst diesel engine known to man
59 Fly2HMO: Says who? Are you talking about the passats? If so, and I know this for a fact, they do have power steering, but it's electrohydraulic. Not to mentio
60 RayChuang: The reason why we don't see the 1.6-liter TDI engine in the US market is simple: the engine is only rated at around 110 bhp, which could make the VW G
61 KiwiRob: The US obsession with power is crazy when most people drive in the city and suburbs where high-end power isn't needed, plus a Golf with this engine c
62 dazbo5: I'll repeat what I've said before on this and other threads. I've driven and compared many vehicles, including the Prius and not just looked on paper
63 racko: I don't get it either. These are cars for people who are not interested in the performance of a car (we're comparing to a Prius after all). What's th
64 dazbo5: I have this engine in a larger car than the Golf. What it lacks in high end power, it more than makes up for in torque. 70mph (the legal UK speed lim
65 flanker: That engine provides great torque numbers, maybe not a very high top end speed but acceleration is great. Its ideal for most city/suburban driving fo
66 Flighty: It is a wealthy sort of ignorance. Most people do not know anything about cars, but they want a V6 or a V8 because it is a cultural norm. But from an
67 BMI727: I want a fast car and I'm willing to pay for it. If other people don't that's alright with me, unless of course they drive like morons. The problem i
68 KiwiRob: But there aren't many lower powered options for people. I don't think anyone is suggesting selling 316's in North America, but you could sell 320i or
69 flanker: I think what most people like myself crave is acceleration and good torque numbers, especially from a turbo. I really don't care if my car can go mor
70 srqmuc: Out of curiosity: How is the government telling you that? Last time I checked I still free to buy whatever car I'd like to. I support that everybody
71 swissy: You are spot on... drive up in a Busen Muessen Wakeln, MB or Audi here in North America and they think you are loaded... even if you are driving a "b
72 BMI727: Sure there are. Maybe not with the luxury badges, but those options are out there. If I were BMW, I would be very wary of offering all but the top di
73 TheRedBaron: Ding DING DING we have a winner here.... exactly why the USA will never get the idea of a small, diesel powered car that gets 40+ MPG in any cycle or
74 BMI727: 1. It's awesome. 2. Who says you can't drive fast here?
75 flanker: I got clocked at 120mph once in my A4. sigh
76 TheRedBaron: Driving fast regularly in the USA = jail. Ask David Letterman...
77 KiwiRob: They already have the 2.0 143hp motor from the X18d series cars in the MINI.
78 flanker: Even non regularly...on first offense too,just depends how fast. lol
79 RayChuang: I think it's very likely that by the New York Auto Show in April 2012 that BMW will officially announce that the 165 bhp 2.0-liter turbodiesel engine
80 mham001: Once again, this discussion is about what we get and what will pass emissions in the US. Europe has no relevance. Particularly its weak mileage test.
81 L410Turbolet: Why does the US - out of all countries - need a "high-end power" for something that is meant to be a daily commuter car? To drag 65mph at best on the
82 WildcatYXU: The sad truth is that people don't even use the car's power to accelerate properly. At least here, in Ontario, Canada. 80% of drivers takes off from
83 fruitbat: Sure, it's a selective quote, but it did make me laugh!! I believe, sir, that you may be trolling this thread (despite the fact you are the OP!!) May
84 flanker: I know what a electric motor feels like and its bland. Its a like a fine meat that taste like shit. Give me the turbo spool, symphony of the motor/ex
85 BMI727: I think they should offer that engine here before they offer smaller diesels in actual BMWs. A bad diesel could do serious damage to their reputation
86 RayChuang: The main reason why VW was able to get the 2.0 TDI to the US market is simple: that engine is rated at 140 bhp, which gives it ample power for America
87 dazbo5: Removed as something when wrong when I posted and it rearranged / lost half my post. Darren[Edited 2012-02-13 01:00:38]
88 KiwiRob: It's not a bad diesel, it's one of the best on the market, it's the most produced engine BMW make, I've been told that more than half of all BMW's an
89 BMI727: It wouldn't be the engine being poor, but if the car itself doesn't live up to people's expectations of how a BMW should perform. It could set the br
90 B777LRF: Just to make it clear, BMW produces just one 2.0 litre diesel, but it's available in 116 (16d), 143 (18d), 163 (20d ED), 184 (20d) and 205hp (25d) ve
91 flipdewaf: Interesting, so its only the fact that its a Twin turbo and a V8 that counts? maybe thats the problem in the states, they don't want to drive their c
92 cmf: Talk about not seeing the forest for the trees. But hey, as long as it it your special interest everyone else is wrong
93 mirrodie: I'm thinking of a new car to replace a 2000 Altima with 102K on it. Runs well but after the wife has been sideswiped twice, I think its time to get he
94 flanker: No, its not, I was just making a point! Whether its a single turbo, v6, 4banger or a W12... its the over all car that makes the experience worth whil
95 WildcatYXU: I'm afraid your choices are limited to European cars. How about the one assembled in my old country - VW Touareg TDi?
96 flanker: Easiest to get are the Audi/VW diesels.
97 Kent350787: What about a US built vehicle like the BMW X5? Or has the diesel only recently been introduced in the US?
98 Molykote: I've only skimmed this thread, but I haven't seen anyone mention that (IMO) BMW simply brought the wrong diesel to the US. Any US buyer looking for po
99 mirrodie: Yeah I thought BMW and MB had diesels here a few years.
100 mham001: If you look at the thread title, the geographical location of this discussion is fairly apparent. There is little point in you telling us what you th
101 klm77: Few people mentioned about big engine sizes in North America...What's the point of owning anything bigger then a V6? Also, what on earth is the point
102 DocLightning: This is a lie based on a heavily manipulated "study" that keeps on getting repeated. It is not true.
103 mham001: VW is expected to expand the powertrain options for the new Golf.... The all-new hatch will be available with a wider range of powertrains than todayâ
104 KiwiRob: Nice selective quoting. You can bet the farm on it that the twin turbo 2.0 diesel will do way more then 50mpg.
106 mham001: No, I did not quote the entire article. Isn't that against A.net rules? Everybody (I thought) knows that they have diesel motors. Gas ones too. The n
107 aloges: Good. When they were quickly expanding into Diesel waters, were they signalling the death of petrol engines?
108 Flighty: Agree. Turbos are great. These days it's the way to go. Yes, the buyers do not care. It was a tech demonstration by BMW. They will be beloved used ca
109 fruitbat: ## deleted because to be honest I just got totally frustrated with the whole damn thing ##[Edited 2012-02-15 15:21:49]
110 mirrodie: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...al-will-price-out-millions-buyers/ So perhaps diesel and gas/petrol are here to stay...... the US has enough oi
111 mham001: I don't doubt they were trying. Do you? VW's current gas engine lineup is pretty sorry compared to the competition. Do you not believe they were putt
112 WildcatYXU: Please tell me, compared to whom? Granted, I don't understand VW's North American engine lineup either, but I'd say that VW's gasoline engines are cu
113 flanker: Yep the Veyrons technological piece of art of an engine isnt advanced, nor is the Lambo lineup which trickles down to Audi and the likes...Oh neither
114 mham001: I am out of time here but if that were so, why have they announced they will be replacing their mainstay, the 2.5? No turbo, no direct injection, aby
115 WildcatYXU: Well, as I wrote above, I don't really understand VW's NA lineup. They have it all - direct injection, turbo, multiple turbos, turbo/supercharger com
116 KiwiRob: You could also add the Porsche engines into this list as well, they are kinda part of VAG.
117 mham001: Plenty of companies offer plenty of things in different markets. I am only commenting on what is offered here, a point which seems lost on plenty of
118 WildcatYXU: Yes, I have to agree with this - to a certain extent. While I sort of understand it in smaller vehicles (nobody would buy a Jetta with a 1.2 litre en
119 aloges: I do, 100%. Pray tell, have you heard of their FSI and TSI engines?
120 mham001: No they are not stupid. That does not mean they don't dream of owning a (hopefully) burgeoning diesel market. They have openly spoke of their diesel
121 mham001: It seems VW is also signaling the death of diesel in Asia as well.... VW plans to start EV production in China in 2014 Feb 14 (Reuters) - Volkswagen A
122 IH8BY: Exciting stuff, certainly, though who's to say that a plug-in diesel hybrid wouldn't have even more impressive emissions and fuel efficiency than the
123 mham001: Those are good points. I believe there are reasons that diesel hybrid may not make it. The diesel premium for one thing. Also that diesel is apparent
124 fruitbat: What's the "diesel premium"? Is this a US-only thing or does Europe have it as well? Is it real? I note the use of the word "apparently". Surely any
125 dazbo5: I think this is in reference to the start / stop systems of non-hybrid vehicles such as that on the VW Bluemotion / Skoda Greenline etc. I think it's
126 aloges: There, I fixed it for you. Just take a look at some other threads on Diesel and/or hybrid engines started by the member who started this one.
127 mham001: The diesel premuim here is approximately $2-3k for the more heavily built diesel engine (and the direct injection, etc goodies). On top of that, dies
128 RayChuang: I think right now diesel again makes sense, especially now with the new Euro6 emissions certification, which means diesel engines effectively as low-p
129 aloges: I am not at all opposed to electric cars - provided of course that the generation of the electric power required to run them doesn't pollute more tha
130 geezer: Tell me njxc500, are you driving a Ford, G.M. or Dodge Ram and getting 18-20 MPG ? My 2000 stock Cummins is only about 250 HP, with maybe, if I'm luc
131 Aesma: Drilling more is not exactly green, and diesel isn't either (but no worse than petrol). One point to consider is that the US must import gas and expo
132 mham001: The hybrids we see today are only the beginning and a necessary first step towards plugins and pure EVs. (BTW, there are several types of systems of
133 KiwiRob: I doubt we will ever be driving pure electric cars in massive numbers, they will remain city cars for the most part. I'm convinced that hydrogen is t
134 aloges: You are a Diesel hater today. You are wrong.
135 dazbo5: But you keep forgetting that those that have driven them in the real world (and not relying on manufacturer figures) don't necessarily agree with you
136 Aesma: You mean hydrogen electric, with a fuel cell ? Still, hydrogen is a pain to stock, and that won't go away. It's also dangerous, or at least perceived
137 aloges: So is petrol, although there are of course significant advantages to a fuel that's liquid at room temperature.
138 KiwiRob: I do, I think hydrogen fuel cells are the future. So if I wanted to drive 1000km with Better Place I'd probably have to change batteries 5-6 times, h
139 mirrodie: A quick fix is not necessarily the best. Why does it have to be 'all or none'? I thought this was America. I thought we were allowed certain freedoms
140 mham001: I don't disagree with that much, but believing that US oil will influence the price of oil in any great degree is an old mistake. We will not drill o
141 KiwiRob: But not everyone can, what about people who live in apartments. As above, what it you live in an apartment, or in a place without much sunlight? So y
142 dazbo5: So why all the hybrids are king talk then? Surely you should be practicing what you're preaching here? You didn't answer the question either. That is
143 Rabenschlag: Whatever may happen to the Diesel in the US, we are about to enjoy a few more fast and frugal diesels on the eastern side of the pond. http://www.auto
144 swissy: There is plenty of "life" left in a diesel... the sky is the limit but we have to see passed our nose and not live in the past anymore , guess the US
145 BMI727: That car could skyrocket to the top of the list of great cars America doesn't get, but hopefully BMW will see the light. It will be a fine compromise
146 JJJ: More doom and gloom for diesels in the US. Diesel Cayenne, Diesel Mazda CX-5 and Diesel VW new new beetle coming soon. http://blog.caranddriver.com/po
147 mham001: There will be charging points, not everybody can mount panels on their roof, but millions and millions can. Because hybrids lead to plugin hybrids wh
148 JJJ: I already have panels, they give me hot water which in turn helps the gas boiler in keeping the house warm. I have ridiculously low gas bills for tha
149 dazbo5: I think you're getting your future and present tenses mixed up in all this. You're taking about the future while we're talking about the present. You
150 aloges: ...but you see, those companies just don't know what they're doing!
151 mirrodie: I do agree there but I don't think anyone here has toted diesel as being the savior. Yet YOU are the one ringing bells that it has died while the fol
152 BMI727: Sticker is north of $40k, and with the price credit you'll still pay over $32,000 for a compact car. Obviously, you could buy a standard compact car
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From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2557 posts, 
From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 5810 posts, 
Word is travelling so fast that people aren't even trying to go to their Chevy dealers because they believe they can't possibly land a Volt. And the poor dealers have been forced to turn down some or all of their Volt allocations because of it. 
From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 719 posts, 
From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4736 posts, 
From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 30441 posts, 
That's all there is to this.
From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 7587 posts, 
.Same with the Mk4's, they were only offered with the 2.0 unless you went TDI or GTI.
From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 496 posts, 
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