mham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2557 posts, RR: 3 Posted (3 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 4334 times:
VW has let reporters drive the 2013 Jetta Hybrid and claim it will see 45 US mpg combined, ~8% higher than the Jetta TDI. A little short of the Prius but a significant milestone on their part. VW has sandwiched a 20 kW motor between a 1.4l turbo and a 7 speed gearbox fed by a small 1.1 kWh battery pack. It will drive the car up to 44 mph and 1.4 miles before the gas engine kicks in and will also be used as a boost assist in passing situations.
Today, rumors abound about BMW dropping the 335d in this market. They have 2 problems, the upcoming ActiveHybrid 3 series and the realization that their new 328i gasser nearly matches both efficiency and power of the 335d. Tom Plucinsky, BMW product communications manager, was quoted today, "The F30 328i has the same EPA rating as the 335d. We need to up our game if we're going to continue to offer a 3 Series diesel in the U.S."
Buick, sometimes mentioned as a possible diesel recipient, also released news today that their mild hybrid system, eAssist, will come standard equipment on the 2013 Regal, as it already is on the LaCrosse where it sees 25/37 mpg in a 3,800 lb car. Buicks LaCrosse eAssist includes a 15hp electric motor adding 70 lbs of torque for start and passing assist. Interestingly, the hybrid car only gained 6 pounds through smaller gas tank, more use of aluminum, etc. Price of the LaCrosse eAssist is the same as the V6 option.
flymia From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 5674 posts, RR: 6 Reply 1, posted (3 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 4284 times:
This is pretty horrible news. I know BMW and VW will make a great hybrid and it will drive well like a TDI can. The top of the line VW in the US is a hybrid, a 370hp Turbo V6 SUV but still a hybrid. But unless it is a supercharged beast like the Touareg Hybrid I just hate them, think they are horrible just for what they stand for.
People honestly think they are saving the environment driving a hybrid but they are not. The amount of extra energy and man hours etc.. it takes to make a hybrid with the battery and mining, technology far out weighs the environmental impact it saves on less gas. A conventional car or better yet a TDI is much better for the world than a hybrid. But you will see commercials about saving the world and people saying look I am "green" I drive a hybrid.
Me driving a 10 year old 6,000lb Mercedes SUV getting 12mpg is better for the environment in the big picture than someone buying a new hybrid. TDI is the real winner IMO, too bad people just do not realize it.
Full electric cars: That is a different story. Those are good if anyone wants to deal with them.
Hopefully VW keeps the V6 TDI for the Touareg and it would be great to see Jeep get a TDI in there.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
cv640 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 946 posts, RR: 6 Reply 3, posted (3 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4221 times:
I just test drove a Golf TDI with a manual and was quite impressed. Smooth, quiet, and still fun to drive. It definitely changed my original thoughts on diesels.
MD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8227 posts, RR: 15 Reply 4, posted (3 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 4214 times:
Quoting mham001 (Thread starter): VW has let reporters drive the 2013 Jetta Hybrid and claim it will see 45 US mpg combined, ~8% higher than the Jetta TDI.
If it's only 45 combined I'm betting it won't be as good as the current Jetta TDI is on the highway, especially with the manual. If you have commute on open roads and not stop and go traffic the current TDI might even still be a better choice. And you don't lose any interior space to the batteries.
mham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2557 posts, RR: 3 Reply 6, posted (3 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4199 times:
Quoting flymia (Reply 1): The amount of extra energy and man hours etc.. it takes to make a hybrid with the battery and mining, technology far out weighs the environmental impact it saves on less gas.
That is just not true. Have you considered the energy expended for one gallon of fuel? Estimates range up to 7 gallons of equivalent energy went into retrieving, refining and distributing that one gallon. Anyway, it goes far beyond just the environmental aspects.
Quoting flymia (Reply 1): Me driving a 10 year old 6,000lb Mercedes SUV getting 12mpg is better for the environment in the big picture than someone buying a new hybrid.
I agree with that, but not everybody can hold off on a new car. 13-14 million cars will be sold here this year.
Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 2): Oh look, a diesel bashing thread from a.nets resident diesel basher
Just reporting the news today. I've taken a lot of heat for saying that this was coming and now diesel manufacturers themselves are saying the same things. Gassers have closed the gap in efficiency and hybrids kill diesel. Notwithstanding the potential of a diesel series hybrid, diesel is dead in the US.
The news gets worse....
Mercedes-Benz has no interest in pursuing BMW down the diesel performance rabbit hole, according to Autocar. The publication spoke with Ola Kallenius, chairman of the board of management at Mercedes-Benz AMG, who said the company explored the idea of performance diesels in the past and found the concept too fraught with compromises to be worthwhile. Kallenius said gasoline engines have obvious advantages when it comes to weight, sound, agility and response. The AMG guru also pointed to the fact that the company's modern performance engines have borrowed considerable diesel technology, including direct injection and turbocharging, to reach their current power and efficiency levels.http://www.autoblog.com/2012/02/07/m...iesels-may-greenlight-911-fighter/
Fly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 7, posted (3 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 4190 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 6): Notwithstanding the potential of a diesel series hybrid
This is the only type of hybrid system I agree with. Prototypes have been tested with this system that get well over 100mpg. Yet I don't know WTF they're waiting to release them, they've (mainly volvo and other euro brands) been toying around with this concept for the last decade at least.
Parallel hybrids are stupid. They're heavy, have lame performance and still rely on rare, expensive, toxic metals batteries. With a diesel-electric you'd get all the advantages of an all-electric drive train minus the pathetic range and charging problems of an all electric car. Heck, trains have used that system in very large scale for half a century already.
But hybrids use fuel too and their numbers are not much better and sometimes worse than a TDI. That's my point, you add the amount of energy it takes for both the fuel and battery and extra technology. With a car your getting just the fuel. It is not like hybrids don't use gas. Yes a hybrid Jetta is better than a Chevy Suburban but it is not better than a 2.5L Jetta.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
mham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2557 posts, RR: 3 Reply 10, posted (3 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4120 times:
Quoting flymia (Reply 8): But hybrids use fuel too and their numbers are not much better and sometimes worse than a TDI. That's my point, you add the amount of energy it takes for both the fuel and battery and extra technology. With a car your getting just the fuel. It is not like hybrids don't use gas. Yes a hybrid Jetta is better than a Chevy Suburban but it is not better than a 2.5L Jetta.
It's not? The 2.5l is an outdated motor for which they have already announced a replacement. If a hybrid can't beat that, those engineers in Wolfsburg must have made a serious error in judgement.
The only claim so far by VW is a combined 45 mpg for the hybrid on the US test. The 2.5l Jetta gets 26 combined. Average mileage might be 12,000/year. The hybrid will save 195 gallons of gas/year. Account for the amount of energy saved by not refining 195 gallons, conservatively, 4x for 780 gallons/year not used. For an 8 year period (the amount of time the batteries are generally warranted), the average driver would save 6,240 equivalent gallons of energy.
What evidence do you have that the 1.1 kWh pack in the Jetta consumes more than 6,240 gallons of energy to produce? edit: not all of the efficiency of the hybrid comes from that tiny battery pack, but I still look forward to your evidence of great energy losses from battery manufacturing.
It gets much better than this though. All three of these manufacturers are already missing the boat. Prius and the Volt have beat them to the punch. They need an onboard charge controller and a plug. Plugins are the mid-future. Once people realize that electric is smooth, quiet and economical, they are going to ask why they are limited to only charging by a ICE burning dirty smelly chemicals when most of their driving can be accomplished with electric only. Word is getting around from Volt owners who are scheduling their next fuel purchase months from now. This is a wonderful thing.
prebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 5810 posts, RR: 56 Reply 11, posted (3 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 4105 times:
Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 7): With a diesel-electric you'd get all the advantages of an all-electric drive train minus the pathetic range and charging problems of an all electric car. Heck, trains have used that system in very large scale for half a century already.
Diesel-electric trains are much older than half a century - came already some 90 years ago, and were mass produced during the 30'es.
They have the disadvantage to lose at least 10% on the power generator, plus 10% on the electric motor = minimum 20%.
Therefore (at least here) diesel trains from 1991 and later have gearbox transmission with clutch much like an ordinary manual car, but automatic (electronic and electro-mechanical) operation of clutch and gear change.
Going diesel-electric in cars would efficiency wise be a step backwards - not much better than the old-fashioned automatic gear with hydraulic torque converter. The dual clutch gear, as pioneered by VW, is the way forward since it offers the same efficiency as ordinary manual gear.
Diesel-electric locomotives are still viable for heavy freight trains, especially in not so flat countries.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
Fly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 12, posted (3 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 4049 times:
Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 11):
Going diesel-electric in cars would efficiency wise be a step backwards - not much better than the old-fashioned automatic gear with hydraulic torque converter.
It can't possibly be that bad. This diesel electric gets 128mpg:
Granted, the diesel engine doesn't necessarily run full time.
I can't remember who it was, nor can I find the article, but I do recall seeing another diesel electric series hybrid prototype (similar to the C30 above) that would use no batteries and the engine would run continuously (aside from a start/stop system); it still got upwards of 100mpg. You don't need a ridiculously large engine to drive a generator for a hatchback. You make a small diesel and optimize it to a certain RPM and hook it up to a generator and drive small electric motors at each wheel.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 11547 posts, RR: 27 Reply 13, posted (3 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 4025 times:
Quoting mham001 (Thread starter): "The F30 328i has the same EPA rating as the 335d. We need to up our game if we're going to continue to offer a 3 Series diesel in the U.S."
Good thing that they just upped their game on the X6, X5, and 5 Series then. The new M Performance line diesels should be more than competitive with the Audi S cars, considering that the M550xd will outrun the Audi S5, the S6 will have its work cut out for it.
Of course those wonderful models might not make it to the US because of draconian environmental regulations.
Quoting flymia (Reply 1): it would be great to see Jeep get a TDI in there.
They had their diesel Liberty, which was just horrid.
Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 5): That's too bad. I've been hoping for diesel to get more common here.
I'm not going to complain about GM not putting a diesel in the Buick. When they tried it with Oldsmobile they set diesel powered cars back a decade or two.
Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 7): Parallel hybrids are stupid. They're heavy, have lame performance and still rely on rare, expensive, toxic metals batteries.
Those are precisely the hybrids that make sense. Use a mini-battery pack as a KERS type boost, and such a system could be weight neutral with standard all wheel drive anyway. The only thing that would be nice is if they could package a flywheel into a consumer car rather than a battery. Porsche has the formula right with the 911 and 918.
Quoting mham001 (Reply 10): Word is getting around from Volt owners who are scheduling their next fuel purchase months from now.
Word is travelling so fast that people aren't even trying to go to their Chevy dealers because they believe they can't possibly land a Volt. And the poor dealers have been forced to turn down some or all of their Volt allocations because of it.
Of course, you could buy a Volt for $32000, or get a Mini Countryman S and 48000 miles worth of gas (at $3.50 per gallon). Or a Ford Focus and 60000 miles of gas or a Fiesta and 113000 miles of fuel. If performance is more your thing, you could always buy a VW GTI and drive it 27000 miles by the time you've spent Volt money and the Focus ST will likely be more than competitive with that too. And that's before you even consider used models.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
B777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 719 posts, RR: 3 Reply 14, posted (3 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3989 times:
The new 3-series will be offered for sale in Germany on the 11th of this month. The 320d Efficient Dynamics version will offer 163hp, 380nm of torque, and fitted with the 8-speed autobox will burn 4.1L/100km on the combined cycle while emitting 109g CO2/km. 4.1L/100km translates to roughly 57.3 MPG (US), casually flipping the bird to the frutility of hybrids.
As a sop to the Americans the 3-series will become available next year as a hybrid, but I very much doubt it'll burn less fuel than the 320d ED.
From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
racko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4736 posts, RR: 23 Reply 15, posted (3 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3962 times:
Hybrids do well when it comes to inner-city driving, Diesels do well when it comes to long range driving.
Quoting B777LRF (Reply 14):
The new 3-series will be offered for sale in Germany on the 11th of this month. The 320d Efficient Dynamics version will offer 163hp, 380nm of torque, and fitted with the 8-speed autobox will burn 4.1L/100km on the combined cycle while emitting 109g CO2/km. 4.1L/100km translates to roughly 57.3 MPG (US), casually flipping the bird to the frutility of hybrids.
From what I understand, American customers are not enthusiastic about relatively "small" engines. In the US, the entry-level engine for a VW Golf is a 2.5 liter, here it's a 1.2 liter...
mah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 30441 posts, RR: 77 Reply 16, posted (3 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3926 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 6): Just reporting the news today. I've taken a lot of heat for saying that this was coming and now diesel manufacturers themselves are saying the same things. Gassers have closed the gap in efficiency and hybrids kill diesel. Notwithstanding the potential of a diesel series hybrid, diesel is dead in the US.
You're quite hysterical. Diesel sales in the United States have skyrocketed. Volkwagen yesterday introduced the 2013 Beetle TDI. Mercedes-Benz just put the S-Class diesel on sale in the states, while GM is adding Cruze and ATS diesels; Chrysler a Grand Cherokee diesel; and Mercedes-Benz will add a GLK diesel.
Diesel is anything but dead, and hybrids don't kill diesel, because hybrids are significantly more expensive.
Furthermore, U.S. EPA testing does diesel mileage no justice. A Jetta TDI gets 50-55 MPG highway with ease, but until the EPA develops a system that accurately test diesel mileage, VW can't advertise it's real life MPG.
Mercedes-Benz has no interest in pursuing BMW down the diesel performance rabbit hole, according to Autocar. The publication spoke with Ola Kallenius, chairman of the board of management at Mercedes-Benz AMG, who said the company explored the idea of performance diesels in the past and found the concept too fraught with compromises to be worthwhile. Kallenius said gasoline engines have obvious advantages when it comes to weight, sound, agility and response. The AMG guru also pointed to the fact that the company's modern performance engines have borrowed considerable diesel technology, including direct injection and turbocharging, to reach their current power and efficiency levels.http://www.autoblog.com/2012/02/07/m...iesels-may-greenlight-911-fighter/
You're using a quote from the chairman of AMG as proof that Diesels are dying in the US. Couldn't you have found one from the CEO of Ferrari, just to complete the picture?
Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 2): Oh look, a diesel bashing thread from a.nets resident diesel basher
That's all there is to this.
Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
mham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2557 posts, RR: 3 Reply 18, posted (3 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3759 times:
Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 12): It can't possibly be that bad. This diesel electric gets 128mpg:
Except that concept is not using a diesel motor.
Quoting B777LRF (Reply 14): translates to roughly 57.3 MPG (US), casually flipping the bird to the frutility of hybrids.
Here we go again, throwing out numbers that do not correlate to this market. Knock ~20% off if you want to compare mileage tests.
Quoting mah4546 (Reply 16): hybrids are significantly more expensive.
In many or most cases, that is factually incorrect, although somewhat difficult to track with package options, especially since nobody has a hybrid, a diesel and a petrol to compare yet. VW will soon.. The Buick LaCrosse eAssist for example, is the same price as the V6 gas model. GM is introducing scale into the market and prices are falling. Battery prices continue to drop as well. The Prius also seems to be quite competitive.
For comparative purposes, I recommend this site. Try comparing the Prius with any VW diesel. You will be very surprised. Or try the LaCrosse against the E350 Bluetec... http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/findacar.shtml
Quoting mah4546 (Reply 16): Furthermore, U.S. EPA testing does diesel mileage no justice. A Jetta TDI gets 50-55 MPG highway with ease, but until the EPA develops a system that accurately test diesel mileage, VW can't advertise it's real life MPG.
VW would love to change the test to focus on long, steady, monotonous drives. Problem is, that scenario does not reflect day-to-day life here. The average commute is ~16 miles.
Quoting aloges (Reply 17): You're using a quote from the chairman of AMG as proof that Diesels are dying in the US.
No, that just happened to be in the news yesterday. I used the quote because he mentioned some insight about the advantages and recent advances of petrol engines and why they would not bother with diesel, some things often forgotten by diesel fanboys.
aloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 7589 posts, RR: 51 Reply 19, posted (3 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3726 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 18): why they would not bother with diesel
Precisely my point, they won't bother with a Diesel engine, them being AMG. While I do admire their technological achievements, they are not exactly a player in the mass market. IIRC, the BMW M Diesels aren't even for sale yet, so perhaps AMG will change their mind if those prove to be a success.
ACDC8 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 7587 posts, RR: 47 Reply 20, posted (3 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 3718 times:
Quoting racko (Reply 15): In the US, the entry-level engine for a VW Golf is a 2.5 liter
Its actually the only engine offered unless you go TDI or turbo with the GTI .Same with the Mk4's, they were only offered with the 2.0 unless you went TDI or GTI.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 11547 posts, RR: 27 Reply 25, posted (3 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3719 times:
Quoting aloges (Reply 17): You're using a quote from the chairman of AMG as proof that Diesels are dying in the US. Couldn't you have found one from the CEO of Ferrari, just to complete the picture?
There used to be a time when Porsche would never build an SUV and Ferrari would never build a car with all wheel drive too.
Quoting aloges (Reply 19): IIRC, the BMW M Diesels aren't even for sale yet, so perhaps AMG will change their mind if those prove to be a success.
The M diesels won't really be competition for AMG. They will be a mid-range group between standard models with the M package and the real M cars that are meant to compete with the Audi S series.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
dazbo5 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 2087 posts, RR: 5 Reply 26, posted (3 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3700 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 18): In many or most cases, that is factually incorrect, although somewhat difficult to track with package options, especially since nobody has a hybrid, a diesel and a petrol to compare yet
Actually, that's factually incorrect. There's the Toyota Auris. Base model petrol: £16,730. Base model diesel: £18,230. Base model hybrid £20,295.
Darren
Equipment: Canon EOS 50D & 350D; Sigma 10-20 EX DC HSM, 50-500 EX APO DG, Canon 24-105 f/4 L, Speedlite 430EX
tugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 3557 posts, RR: 4 Reply 27, posted (3 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3708 times:
Quoting dazbo5 (Reply 26): Actually, that's factually incorrect. There's the Toyota Auris. Base model petrol: £16,730. Base model diesel: £18,230. Base model hybrid £20,295.
Yes but:
Quote: toyota-auris-hsd-003-f.jpg
It’s worth noting that there are three Auris HSD models; the entry-level model can manage 74.3 mpg and 89 g/km CO2. The other two models have 215 45 R 17 tyres and alloy wheels – these make the car look better, but result in the economy dropping to 70.6 mpg and the CO2 increasing to 93 g/km CO2. Although this is 4 g/km higher, such CO2 levels are still excellent for this class of car.
In comparison, the one diesel engine in the Auris line-up, the 1.4 D-4D, only manages 58.9 mpg and 128 g/km CO2 – which is quite a way off the HSD.
fruitbat From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 496 posts, RR: 7 Reply 28, posted (3 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 3704 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 24): You've never experienced torque like an electric motor produces. It shames any ICE from 0 rpms.
I know; and when I can get an electric car here in the UK that (a) does 500 miles between charges (b) charges up from zero to full overnight (c) can carry 2 teenage kids, 2 dogs and two weeks camping equipment and (d) will take me 24k miles per year without any fuss or bother, I'll get one. Straight away. I promise. Until then I'm sticking with my oil burner, as on balance it's the best solution for me and my requirements.
I also appreciate that what works for me doesn't necessarily work for others. And that's my two cents - I'm not going to engage in any more powertrain fundamentalism!
Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel.
I've driven them (Auris), I know. I was just pointing out there are models out their to compare pricing between petrol, diesel and hybrid models. Of course emissions and fuel consumption will vary between them, they have different powerplants and weights.
Following on from the other thread, I'm still getting better fuel consumption out of my diesel than the Prius I had.
Darren
Equipment: Canon EOS 50D & 350D; Sigma 10-20 EX DC HSM, 50-500 EX APO DG, Canon 24-105 f/4 L, Speedlite 430EX
Going diesel-electric in cars would efficiency wise be a step backwards - not much better than the old-fashioned automatic gear with hydraulic torque converter.
It can't possibly be that bad. This diesel electric gets 128mpg:
This is not a diesel-electric car as you mention in reply #7.
It is a rechargeable hybrid. It does 124mpg (not 128) on a 93 miles distance when you start out with fully charged battery and end with an empty battery. The article doesn't tell anything about your milage in case you drive more than 93 miles (or in case you start out with a not fully charged battery).
Diesel-electric cars of similar system as diesel-electric trains do not exist. If they ever will exist, then it won't be for fuel efficiency gain over present day ordinary cars.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
WildcatYXU From Canada, joined May 2006, 2303 posts, RR: 7 Reply 31, posted (3 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3625 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 18): Here we go again, throwing out numbers that do not correlate to this market. Knock ~20% off if you want to compare mileage tests
I realize that I'm repeating myself, but I have yet to drive a car that comes even close to the test mileage in real life. I don't know who designed those tests, but they are IMO completely useless.
Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 30): It does 124mpg (not 128) on a 93 miles distance when you start out with fully charged battery and end with an empty battery.
I hate when they state something like this. Where they think the energy in the battery came from? The wall plug???
Quoting ACDC8 (Reply 20): Its actually the only engine offered unless you go TDI or turbo with the GTI .Same with the Mk4's, they were only offered with the 2.0 unless you went TDI or GTI.
I don't really think there would be too many customers for a 1200 ccm car for $25k around here, despite the reasonaple horsepower and quite respectable torque. As far as the fivebanger is concerned, I'm renting one right now and it's a quite sweet ride.
RayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 7560 posts, RR: 6 Reply 32, posted (3 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3594 times:
I think in the end, it all comes down to this: the enormous cost of making turbodiesel engines meet the EPA Tier 2 Bin 5 emissions certification, which has tough standards for diesel particulates and NOx levels.
I do think that BMW may offer the 2.0-liter 170 bhp turbodiesel engine in the US market, especially since the engine has to soon meet Euro6 emission rules, which are very close to the Tier 2 Bin 5 certification. BMW will like offer this engine only with the 320d, possibly the 120d coupe, and the upcoming US market version of the X1 small crossover.
I do think VW is probably certifying its 170 ps (168 bhp) turbodiesel for the US market, and it will be used on more sporting versions of the Passat and Jetta sedans.
flanker From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1506 posts, RR: 1 Reply 33, posted (3 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3599 times:
Would still take a diesel over any of these Eco shit boxes. I would have loved to get an A3 diesel, but because of the Eco crowd they only offer it in FWD and not Quattro. On a side note, If you buy an Audi that is anything but Quattro you deserve to be shot.
I have been looking forward to an affordable diesel on the market other than used up old VW's and the likes of Audi and Benz... (not that they are bad, just expensive) I remember back in 2007 we had a Bosch A4 Testbed come in that was diesel. It was a test car, but a good sign. Only its taking forever. Here are the pics..
I wish my 1991 420SEL was a diesel.
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction
Flighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 6724 posts, RR: 3 Reply 34, posted (3 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3574 times:
Quoting mah4546 (Reply 16): while GM is adding Cruze and ATS diesels; Chrysler a Grand Cherokee diesel; and Mercedes-Benz will add a GLK diesel.
This is (mostly) highly dubious at least according to thread starter and this humble poster as well.
Quoting RayChuang (Reply 32):
I think in the end, it all comes down to this: the enormous cost of making turbodiesel engines meet the EPA Tier 2 Bin 5 emissions certification, which has tough standards for diesel particulates and NOx levels.
Agree. It was a $5000 premium over Euro vehicles. Arguably a hybrid may be cheaper to build than a diesel car in this market.
The combo of electric and turbo gasoline can produce any amount of torque. For heavy trucks, diesel is still king. For other things, diesel has no role to play in 2012...
B777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 719 posts, RR: 3 Reply 35, posted (3 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3532 times:
Quoting Flighty (Reply 34): For other things, diesel has no role to play in 2012...
Right-o. Do make sure you let the people of Germany, France, Spain etc. know that, since roughly 70% of all the cars they buy are diesel powered. But, hey, what do those stupid Europeans know, right? I mean, after all, they're only building the most sought after cars on the planet ....
From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
KiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 3628 posts, RR: 2 Reply 37, posted (3 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3530 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 18): In many or most cases, that is factually incorrect, although somewhat difficult to track with package options, especially since nobody has a hybrid, a diesel and a petrol to compare yet. VW will soon
In the Norwegian market the base prices (without option) for the Touareg are as follows:
V6 TDi 204hp 779,300 NOK
V6 TDi 245hp 820,400 NOK
V8 TDi 340hp 1,281,000 NOK
V6 Hybrid 380 1.303,300 NOK
LOT767-300ER From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 38, posted (3 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3533 times:
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 37): In the Norwegian market the base prices (without option) for the Touareg are as follows:
V6 TDi 204hp 779,300 NOK
V6 TDi 245hp 820,400 NOK
V8 TDi 340hp 1,281,000 NOK
V6 Hybrid 380 1.303,300 NOK
Any insider info how much the KY to go along with those prices? Dealer throws that in for free or...?
Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 31): I don't really think there would be too many customers for a 1200 ccm car for $25k around here, despite the reasonaple horsepower and quite respectable torque. As far as the fivebanger is concerned, I'm renting one right now and it's a quite sweet ride.
If its the 2.5L Jetta I can safely say the position of the cigarette lighter is enough for me to never consider that car. Ever.
WildcatYXU From Canada, joined May 2006, 2303 posts, RR: 7 Reply 40, posted (3 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3467 times:
Quoting LOT767-300ER (Reply 38): If its the 2.5L Jetta I can safely say the position of the cigarette lighter is enough for me to never consider that car. Ever
It's a Golf. However, I couldn't care less about the cigarette lighter's position (or of any other accessory's for that matter). Handling, engine power, transmission, space - basically that's what I'm looking at. I'd love to say braking power too, but if I'd really look at it, I couldn't buy any car built for the North American market.
Flighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 6724 posts, RR: 3 Reply 42, posted (3 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3406 times:
Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 31): I realize that I'm repeating myself, but I have yet to drive a car that comes even close to the test mileage in real life. I don't know who designed those tests, but they are IMO completely useless.
They are scientific. Usually people do not correctly multiply the mileage ratings to get total. In metric your l/100km are easy to multiply. Our USA mileage (test is pretty accurate) needs to be converted to gallons/100mi before you can easily predict results.
Example: 10 MPG city / 45 MPG highway. Salesman says "look, this is a 45 mpg car."
Actually, if you drive equal distances city and highway:
So, it is a 16 MPG rated car, not 45 mpg at all. But, most people just look at highway "45 mpg" and get all disappointed.
The combined EPA ratins are quite low. You can drive fast... illegally fast.. and meet the ratings. As long as we are using them as they were intended... which automakers would rather you not. They try to play up the hwy rating.
dazbo5 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 2087 posts, RR: 5 Reply 43, posted (3 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3374 times:
Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 31): I don't know who designed those tests, but they are IMO completely useless.
I've never driven a car that achieves the manufacturers fuel efficiency figures, but I've been close to them. In Europe at least, they are test laboratory figures based on an EU regulation that's explained here. If you're careful, I've been within 10% of manufacturer quotes. Many people have a lead right foot though and there are probably more traffic lights, junctions and congestion than the tests take account of. It also very much depends on the ratio of urban and extra-urban miles. I wouldn't say the numbers are completely useless, they are only a guide but are useful to compare two models. They aren't absolutes that you will achieve.
Darren
Equipment: Canon EOS 50D & 350D; Sigma 10-20 EX DC HSM, 50-500 EX APO DG, Canon 24-105 f/4 L, Speedlite 430EX
I'm afraid you misunderstood me. I can't even reach the highway rating even when I zero the board computer after entering the highway and I often have problems to reach the city values in combined driving. The test conditions must be way too far from real life driving.
mirrodie From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 7334 posts, RR: 69 Reply 45, posted (3 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3356 times:
Flighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 6724 posts, RR: 3 Reply 46, posted (3 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3349 times:
Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 44): I'm afraid you misunderstood me. I can't even reach the highway rating even when I zero the board computer after entering the highway and I often have problems to reach the city values in combined driving. The test conditions must be way too far from real life driving.
OK that suggests maybe an ethanol blended gasoline, cold weather, or just conditions outside what most people do. Our US EPA ratings got adjusted down in 2008 so they ought to be met usually. Can't see people doing worse than 14-15 MPG in a 90s Grand Cherokee. But that is the (amended) rating.
aloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 7589 posts, RR: 51 Reply 48, posted (3 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3270 times:
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 47): It's Norway you get screwed when you buy anything here, peoples butts are so loose from the screwing lubricant isn't needed.
To be fair, the average pay isn't low either.
Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
njxc500 From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 185 posts, RR: 0 Reply 49, posted (3 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3244 times:
My work truck has been diesel powered since 1998, and I'll never look back. It is my opinion that a diesel engine is inherently simpler, and with a good design can be fantastic overall. My parents own 2 VW Passat TDI's, averaging over 40mpg on the highway. Overall they have been great cars.
There are one or two things to note though....they take power steering out of many of these cars to reduce fuel consumption. It really isn't a problem, but is noticeable on long trips.
I don't think diesel is going anywhere...not gonna happen. My work truck is 475HP and 1000TQ, still makes 18-20 MPG on the highway, can pull a house, rides "fairly" comfortable and will run for almost a million miles. Show me a hybrid that can do it all. Not gonna happen.
flanker From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1506 posts, RR: 1 Reply 50, posted (3 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3244 times:
Quoting mirrodie (Reply 45): Much like any thread started by the OP.
Quoting njxc500 (Reply 49): I don't think diesel is going anywhere...not gonna happen. My work truck is 475HP and 1000TQ, still makes 18-20 MPG on the highway, can pull a house, rides "fairly" comfortable and will run for almost a million miles. Show me a hybrid that can do it all. Not gonna happen.
mham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2557 posts, RR: 3 Reply 52, posted (3 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3137 times:
Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 31): I realize that I'm repeating myself, but I have yet to drive a car that comes even close to the test mileage in real life. I don't know who designed those tests, but they are IMO completely useless.
That just makes the European test look that much worse. Anecdotally, I get better in my car and worse (horribly) in my work truck. They are best just used for comparative purposes.
Quoting njxc500 (Reply 49): It is my opinion that a diesel engine is inherently simpler,
Not even close. Look at the Prius. It's gas engine does not use any of the fancy new technology. No direct injection, no high pressure, just a simple forced induction engine running the Atkinson cycle. This gets little mention, the fact that Toyota is not just matching, but beating diesel mileage with a comparatively low tech motor. The secret is the Atkinson cycle which is as efficient as the diesel cycle but with less weight.
Another thing that is widely overlooked, (apparently) nobody can get a start-stop diesel to pass emissions. Every startup releases too much (something). I read this in several places but cannot find official EPA verification, although people claim it is out there somewhere... If this is true, diesel will have huge problems competing in city driving.
Quoting B777LRF (Reply 35): Right-o. Do make sure you let the people of Germany, France, Spain etc. know that, since roughly 70% of all the cars they buy are diesel powered. But, hey, what do those stupid Europeans know, right? I mean, after all, they're only building the most sought after cars on the planet ....
You have apparently confused me with somebody who cares what Europe chooses. I don't, as long as they are the ones dealing with the oil markets/wars after we abandon it. But since you bring it up, last I read, hybrid sales in Europe are rising as overall auto sales are declining.
Quoting fruitbat (Reply 28): I know; and when I can get an electric car here in the UK that (a) does 500 miles between charges (b) charges up from zero to full overnight (c) can carry 2 teenage kids, 2 dogs and two weeks camping equipment and (d) will take me 24k miles per year without any fuss or bother, I'll get one. Straight away. I promise. Until then I'm sticking with my oil burner, as on balance it's the best solution for me and my requirements.
Tesla unveiled a vehicle yesterday very close to what you desire. 300 miles they claim, seats 7, front and rear trunk spaces (no motor), 4 hour recharge time.
Quoting aloges (Reply 51): I bet its economy is still excellent when you floor it... oh wait, no.
And so? Electricity does not defy the laws of physics. What is your point?
Quoting mirrodie (Reply 45): Much like any thread started by the OP.
You may not like the message but that is today's reality. Change is coming.
So reviews for the Jetta Hybrid are coming out. VW is getting praise for injecting some driving excitement into the affordable hybrid market. The car is not fast but they believe it is pulling 7-8 second 0-60. VW says 9 secs. I think the Germans will bring a lot to the table, look for some good things to come in the electric motor department.
Toyota is widely thought to have hit a massive home run with the Prius C. This Prius hater could almost see himself buying one of those for a family member. It just needs a plug.
KiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 3628 posts, RR: 2 Reply 53, posted (3 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3122 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 52): This gets little mention, the fact that Toyota is not just matching, but beating diesel mileage with a comparatively low tech motor. The secret is the Atkinson cycle which is as efficient as the diesel cycle but with less weight.
In what world is this happening, cause it's not in this one. When you add in the electric motor and battery which are part of the drive train it's significantly heavier, the Prius isn't a light vehicle.
Quoting mham001 (Reply 52): Tesla unveiled a vehicle yesterday very close to what you desire. 300 miles they claim, seats 7, front and rear trunk spaces (no motor), 4 hour recharge time.
In what real world driving conditions will a Model S do 300 miles, that's also the most expensive version which will cost over 80k USD, you could buy a nice 5 series for significantly less and get many thousands of miles driving for the money saved over the Model S. Those back 2 seats are for dwarves, plus they face backwards which as far as I'm concerned makes them near useless..
mham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2557 posts, RR: 3 Reply 54, posted (3 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3107 times:
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 53): In what world is this happening, cause it's not in this one. When you add in the electric motor and battery which are part of the drive train it's significantly heavier, the Prius isn't a light vehicle.
And yet, despite dragging around all that dead weight at highway speed, it still gets 15%!! better highway mileage than the Jetta TDI.
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 53): In what real world driving conditions will a Model S do 300 miles, that's also the most expensive version which will cost over 80k USD, you could buy a nice 5 series for significantly less and get many thousands of miles driving for the money saved over the Model S. Those back 2 seats are for dwarves, plus they face backwards which as far as I'm concerned makes them near useless..
racko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4736 posts, RR: 23 Reply 56, posted (3 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3066 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 54): And yet, despite dragging around all that dead weight at highway speed, it still gets 15%!! better highway mileage than the Jetta TDI.
Taken from the official homepages:
Toyota Prius 4,0l/100km
BMW 320d ED 4,1l/100km
VW Jetta 1.6 TDI BlueMotion 4,2l/100km
The EU driving cycle is 2/3 inner city and still the 320d is within 0,1l, the Jetta within 0,2l.
Quoting mham001 (Reply 52): Another thing that is widely overlooked, (apparently) nobody can get a start-stop diesel to pass emissions.
The aforementioned BMW 320d has start-stop (in fact I believe almost all BMW Diesels have it by now).
DIesel fuel consumption gets really, really interesting when you want a car that you can have tons of fun with and still are also able to drive economically.
A 381HP Tri-Turbo BMW M550d uses 6,3l/100km. Blows my mind.
Absolutely not...GM put out the worst diesel engine known to man. Ford wasn't far behind with their earlier diesels. I don't think anyone got past these terrible piles of worthless parts.
Fly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR: Reply 59, posted (3 months 2 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3006 times:
Quoting njxc500 (Reply 49):
There are one or two things to note though....they take power steering out of many of these cars to reduce fuel consumption. It really isn't a problem, but is noticeable on long trips.
Says who? Are you talking about the passats? If so, and I know this for a fact, they do have power steering, but it's electrohydraulic. Not to mention no car company in their right mind would remove power steering from a car weighing more than 2000lbs. I've driven older work trucks that have completely manual steering and they're damn near impossible to steer when stationary.
Too bad we don't get this engine in the US. Stupid CAFE laws
Quoting njxc500 (Reply 58): Honestly, I had no idea the prius was a rotary engine....why is that not publicized?
Because it's not a rotary. It's still pretty much your standard otto cycle with modified valve timing. That's it. And of course they're pretty secretive of their technology since they want to keep the edge over competitors.
RayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 7560 posts, RR: 6 Reply 60, posted (3 months 2 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2962 times:
The reason why we don't see the 1.6-liter TDI engine in the US market is simple: the engine is only rated at around 110 bhp, which could make the VW Golf with this engine a bit lacking on high-end power.
But the 2.0-liter I-4 turbodiesel from BMW is another matter altogether. It's reasonably powerful (165 bhp but with a high torque peak), and would make a perfect engine for the high-efficiency 320d model for the US market, especially now the engine is very close to meeting Tier 2 Bin 5 emissions certification anyway.
KiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 3628 posts, RR: 2 Reply 61, posted (3 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2960 times:
Quoting RayChuang (Reply 60): The reason why we don't see the 1.6-liter TDI engine in the US market is simple: the engine is only rated at around 110 bhp, which could make the VW Golf with this engine a bit lacking on high-end power.
The US obsession with power is crazy when most people drive in the city and suburbs where high-end power isn't needed, plus a Golf with this engine can still cruise all day long on an autobahn at 130-180kph, far faster than you are legally allowed to drive in the US.
dazbo5 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 2087 posts, RR: 5 Reply 62, posted (3 months 2 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2953 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 52): This gets little mention, the fact that Toyota is not just matching, but beating diesel mileage with a comparatively low tech motor.
I'll repeat what I've said before on this and other threads. I've driven and compared many vehicles, including the Prius and not just looked on paper. The Prius works in some situations, but not in all. The company I work for has won a few green vehicle awards for the fleets low emmissions, and it chose not to use the Prius. While I'm not knocking the fuel consumption of the Prius, it's a pretty good product, it is only matching some diesels. It's not light years ahead like the marketing spin makes you believe with many diesels far surpassing it. I'm still getting better overall fuel consumption from my much larger, heavier, higher specification and cheaper diesel.
Quoting mham001 (Reply 52): nobody can get a start-stop diesel to pass emissions
Mine works fine and passes no problem.
Quoting mham001 (Reply 52): Tesla unveiled a vehicle yesterday very close to what you desire. 300 miles they claim
The operative word being they claim. If tests of their other vehicles are anything to go by, this'll be more like 200 miles in the real world. Before you say 'how many times do you drive that far in a month?, so far this month, twice. That may have meant an overnight stop twice for charging purposes as fast charging points are very few and far between. There's also the problem of cost. Only a small minority can afford this type of vehicle, it's never going to be mainstream.
Quoting mham001 (Reply 52): This Prius hater could almost see himself buying one of those for a family member. It just needs a plug.
I just hope it's better than their normal Prius hybrid or it'll be a 'no thanks' as it was when I test drove them this time last year. We've just had a fast charging point installed at work to swap one of our diesel pool vehicles to electric, with fast charging points installed at other offices so we can at least hop between them if needed, for evaluation. I'm not sure which electric vehicle we're getting yet, it'll be interesting to use it and see first hand what all the hype is about. I'll be sticking with my diesel for the time being though.
Darren
Equipment: Canon EOS 50D & 350D; Sigma 10-20 EX DC HSM, 50-500 EX APO DG, Canon 24-105 f/4 L, Speedlite 430EX
racko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4736 posts, RR: 23 Reply 63, posted (3 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2942 times:
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 61): The US obsession with power is crazy when most people drive in the city and suburbs where high-end power isn't needed, plus a Golf with this engine can still cruise all day long on an autobahn at 130-180kph, far faster than you are legally allowed to drive in the US.
I don't get it either. These are cars for people who are not interested in the performance of a car (we're comparing to a Prius after all). What's the problem? The same goes for the petrol TSIs.
dazbo5 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 2087 posts, RR: 5 Reply 64, posted (3 months 1 week 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2917 times:
Quoting RayChuang (Reply 60): The reason why we don't see the 1.6-liter TDI engine in the US market is simple: the engine is only rated at around 110 bhp, which could make the VW Golf with this engine a bit lacking on high-end power.
I have this engine in a larger car than the Golf. What it lacks in high end power, it more than makes up for in torque. 70mph (the legal UK speed limit) is not a problem for it. If you need high end power, of course this engine isn't going to provide what you need. It's not intended for that. It's intended for high fuel efficiency in the model where it's being used. For day to day use in a small to medium sized vehicle, it's more than enough. If you want a performance vehicle, look elswhere. If you want a fuel efficient vehicle and aren't too bothered about 0-60 times or towing, it's more than up to the job.
Darren
Equipment: Canon EOS 50D & 350D; Sigma 10-20 EX DC HSM, 50-500 EX APO DG, Canon 24-105 f/4 L, Speedlite 430EX
flanker From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1506 posts, RR: 1 Reply 65, posted (3 months 1 week 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2864 times:
Quoting RayChuang (Reply 60): The reason why we don't see the 1.6-liter TDI engine in the US market is simple: the engine is only rated at around 110 bhp, which could make the VW Golf with this engine a bit lacking on high-end power.
That engine provides great torque numbers, maybe not a very high top end speed but acceleration is great. Its ideal for most city/suburban driving for someone who wants good mileage and does not do any work that requires a powerful engine.
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction
Flighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 6724 posts, RR: 3 Reply 66, posted (3 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2806 times:
Quoting racko (Reply 63):
I don't get it either. These are cars for people who are not interested in the performance of a car (we're comparing to a Prius after all). What's the problem? The same goes for the petrol TSIs.
It is a wealthy sort of ignorance. Most people do not know anything about cars, but they want a V6 or a V8 because it is a cultural norm. But from an aircraft buyer's perspective, an American sedan should have about 130hp and get 45 MPG. Almost nobody in the US needs more than 130hp. My car has about 200 and it's not possible to really use that much power anywhere in the US. But, these days 200hp is the base engine and 300hp is the optional motor. Camry is like that too. Hyundai Sonata. Audi A4. And so on. Why?... I have no idea. Strong acceleration between 100-130 mph and a top speed above 150 is not something anybody here has a way to use.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 11547 posts, RR: 27 Reply 67, posted (3 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2799 times:
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 61): The US obsession with power is crazy when most people drive in the city and suburbs where high-end power isn't needed,
I want a fast car and I'm willing to pay for it. If other people don't that's alright with me, unless of course they drive like morons. The problem is the government telling me that a) I can't have a car like that or b) punishing me for doing so.
Quoting racko (Reply 63): I don't get it either. These are cars for people who are not interested in the performance of a car (we're comparing to a Prius after all).
The thing is that there is a sort of expected level of performance even for perfectly average cars. Think of it like something people won't miss until it's gone. Especially for a brand like BMW, who wants to make sure that their image remains intact. They can't sell a 3 Series here with 114 horsepower and an 11 second 0-60 time in the US while calling themselves the "Ultimate Driving Machine" without people snickering.
Quoting Flighty (Reply 66): Strong acceleration between 100-130 mph and a top speed above 150 is not something anybody here has a way to use.
That's what you think.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
KiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 3628 posts, RR: 2 Reply 68, posted (3 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2792 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 67):
I want a fast car and I'm willing to pay for it. If other people don't that's alright with me, unless of course they drive like morons. The problem is the government telling me that a) I can't have a car like that or b) punishing me for doing so.
But there aren't many lower powered options for people.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 67): They can't sell a 3 Series here with 114 horsepower and an 11 second 0-60 time in the US while calling themselves the "Ultimate Driving Machine" without people snickering.
I don't think anyone is suggesting selling 316's in North America, but you could sell 320i or 320d both have 184hp and will do 0-60 in about 8 seconds which is more than enough for the vast majority of buyers.
flanker From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1506 posts, RR: 1 Reply 69, posted (3 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2790 times:
Quoting Flighty (Reply 66): I have no idea. Strong acceleration between 100-130 mph and a top speed above 150 is not something anybody here has a way to use.
I think what most people like myself crave is acceleration and good torque numbers, especially from a turbo. I really don't care if my car can go more than 100mph around here in Chicago, as long as it gets there quick.
One of the most satisfying feelings is when you hit boost and feel the car just want to run away from underneath you.
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction
srqmuc From Germany, joined Jun 2010, 54 posts, RR: 0 Reply 70, posted (3 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2782 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 67): I want a fast car and I'm willing to pay for it. If other people don't that's alright with me, unless of course they drive like morons. The problem is the government telling me that a) I can't have a car like that or b) punishing me for doing so.
Out of curiosity: How is the government telling you that? Last time I checked I still free to buy whatever car I'd like to.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 67): Strong acceleration between 100-130 mph and a top speed above 150 is not something anybody here has a way to use.
That's what you think.
I support that everybody is free to do what they want to do but it is quite fair to say that the majority simply most people don't need to have that kind of power. But if you want to pay a premium for that you are free to do so.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 67): The thing is that there is a sort of expected level of performance even for perfectly average cars. Think of it like something people won't miss until it's gone. Especially for a brand like BMW, who wants to make sure that their image remains intact. They can't sell a 3 Series here with 114 horsepower and an 11 second 0-60 time in the US while calling themselves the "Ultimate Driving Machine" without people snickering.
I think that is certainly true as BMW has a bigger premium image in the US than in Germany. But I think the 320D would do quite well on the US market (whereas you quoted 316D specs) with 163-184 hp.
swissy From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 1711 posts, RR: 6 Reply 71, posted (3 months 1 week 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2764 times:
Quoting srqmuc (Reply 70): I think that is certainly true as BMW has a bigger premium image in the US than in Germany. But I think the 320D would do quite well on the US market (whereas you quoted 316D specs) with 163-184 hp.
You are spot on... drive up in a Busen Muessen Wakeln, MB or Audi here in North America and they think you are loaded... even if you are driving a "base" model. Still cannot get my head around it even after 16 years of living in Canada that there is such a great miss conception. There are days I have to leave my MB @ home and take the wife's Subi
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 11547 posts, RR: 27 Reply 72, posted (3 months 1 week 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2751 times:
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 68): But there aren't many lower powered options for people.
Sure there are. Maybe not with the luxury badges, but those options are out there.
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 68): I don't think anyone is suggesting selling 316's in North America, but you could sell 320i or 320d both have 184hp and will do 0-60 in about 8 seconds which is more than enough for the vast majority of buyers.
If I were BMW, I would be very wary of offering all but the top diesels in the US. Diesels still suffer from a bit of a stigma here and I wouldn't want to send a diesel that has lower performance than some of the lower range gas engines lest it get a very poor reputation. Especially when it comes to a brand known for superior driving qualities, I think the performance floor in America is a bit higher than elsewhere and I would not want to unintentionally send a message of "diesels are lower performance than gas" by offering an engine with even marginal performance.
That said, I think they should start importing diesel Minis yesterday. Maybe not the 90 hp one, but I bet the 110 hp variant could prove quite popular. And maybe finagle a way to squeeze a bigger BMW diesel in there too.
Quoting srqmuc (Reply 70): Out of curiosity: How is the government telling you that?
1. CAFE laws. They force manufacturers to build cars that consumers don't necessarily want and may preclude them from selling cars consumers may want by fining manufacturers if they don't meet standards. Actually may have contributed to wasting fuel since it killed station wagons in favor of light trucks.
2. Gas Guzzler tax. It's a straight up surcharge for vehicles below a certain fuel mileage that gets tacked onto the price. Also at least partially responsible for the rise of the SUV. Either way, this is the only tax that rivals the inheritance tax for dumbest tax levied in the US.
It's also worth noting that US emissions regulations are written in a way that is biased against diesel. Foreign oil this and energy independence that but nobody will rewrite the regulations to actually help do any of that, even though it would cost nothing and remove a market manipulation. (Of course, Europe is absolutely covered in smog from all the diesel) The other thing is that diesel is taxed more than gasoline here. It varies by locale, but the tax is higher in an attempt to charge the trucking industry.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
TheRedBaron From Mexico, joined Mar 2005, 1538 posts, RR: 4 Reply 73, posted (3 months 1 week 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2734 times:
Quoting Flighty (Reply 66): It is a wealthy sort of ignorance. Most people do not know anything about cars, but they want a V6 or a V8 because it is a cultural norm. But from an aircraft buyer's perspective, an American sedan should have about 130hp and get 45 MPG. Almost nobody in the US needs more than 130hp. My car has about 200 and it's not possible to really use that much power anywhere in the US. But, these days 200hp is the base engine and 300hp is the optional motor. Camry is like that too. Hyundai Sonata. Audi A4. And so on. Why?... I have no idea. Strong acceleration between 100-130 mph and a top speed above 150 is not something anybody here has a way to use.
Ding DING DING we have a winner here.... exactly why the USA will never get the idea of a small, diesel powered car that gets 40+ MPG in any cycle or conditions, they want to get 350 horsepower on a Mustang only to drive it like an old Geezer and be a complete fool in real driving.
Id love to get one of those super macho USA drivers and get it on a lowly Chevy spark and hit 100MPH on a Mexican highway to find out what crazy driving is (FLYHMO won't let me lie how crazy and fast people drive on the highway in Mexico) who cares about driving economy PEDAL TO THE METAL. so Basically we have people here who buy very cheap frugal cars and people who buy expensive exports sedans and drive them like crazy. The point? who needs a fast car that you can drive fast LEGALLY ? the USA should be making cheap and very frugal cars for the city (just like in Europe) and cars that have their consumption / weight / power based on the 65 top speed of most freeways/higways in the USA.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 67): I want a fast car and I'm willing to pay for it. If other people don't that's alright with me, unless of course they drive like morons. The problem is the government telling me that a) I can't have a car like that or b) punishing me for doing so.
You may want a fast car, but what is the purpose of a car that can't be driven as designed to? (e.g. a Posrche)
I have a small Peugeot for city driving (31 MPG), I sports car that I only drive in autocross/track and such and my main highway car is a Golf Sportwagen, I use them in the way they are intended to, no complaints here, but always when I travel to the USA I really wonder why people have fast cars if they can't drive them like that....
P.D. read all the Car and driver magazine of yesteryear that involve going south of the border just to hit over 100 MPH...
BTW A diesel is a lot more simple than a Hybrid and should be more economical to run for like 200 K miles Just sayi´n..
KiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 3628 posts, RR: 2 Reply 77, posted (3 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 2667 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 72): but I bet the 110 hp variant could prove quite popular. And maybe finagle a way to squeeze a bigger BMW diesel in there too.
They already have the 2.0 143hp motor from the X18d series cars in the MINI.
RayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 7560 posts, RR: 6 Reply 79, posted (3 months 1 week 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2597 times:
I think it's very likely that by the New York Auto Show in April 2012 that BMW will officially announce that the 165 bhp 2.0-liter turbodiesel engine will become available in the US market, especially now that with Euro6 certification the engine only needs very minor tweaks to meet Tier 2 Bin 5 certification for 50-state sale. The most likely US-model cars to get this engine: 3-Series (as 320d), 1-Series coupe (as 120d), and the US version of X1 (X1 xDrive20d).
mham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2557 posts, RR: 3 Reply 80, posted (3 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2577 times:
Quoting racko (Reply 56): The EU driving cycle is 2/3 inner city and still the 320d is within 0,1l, the Jetta within 0,2l.
Quoting racko (Reply 56): The aforementioned BMW 320d has start-stop
Once again, this discussion is about what we get and what will pass emissions in the US. Europe has no relevance. Particularly its weak mileage test.
Quoting flanker (Reply 69): One of the most satisfying feelings is when you hit boost and feel the car just want to run away from underneath you.
You're really going to love a good electric motor. No spooling up, no worries about keeping it in the power band. Instant, unrelenting torque.
As for the diesel/gas hybrid thing. Some are saying the diesel is as efficient as the hybrid, why bother. Well, Toyota has publicly stated that the next logical progression is plug-ins and pure EV's. This is a progressive vision of the future in which diesel will not compete.
What do the European diesel pushers have to offer us long term? BMW's chief designer recently stated that the ICE has reached limits. The only thing they had now was to make the engines smaller. This does not necessarily mean more efficient and at the end of the day, you are still importing oil and transferring great amounts of wealth overseas.
Fortunately, BMW is firmly going electric. VW, on the other hand, I believe may just be pretending. They hate the idea of hybrid/electric. I can see them putting out a hybrid and not marketing it, then the 3rd largest manufacturer can claim, "See, nobody wants hybrids, buy our filthy diesels." This is already happening among some Chevy dealers and salesmen with the Volt. Prospective customers report being told "the Volt is no good, them batteries is dangerous, now let me show you a Cruze..." I can also see VW setting up the Jetta Hybrid for failure. We shall see.
L410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5320 posts, RR: 22 Reply 81, posted (3 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2566 times:
Quoting RayChuang (Reply 60): The reason why we don't see the 1.6-liter TDI engine in the US market is simple: the engine is only rated at around 110 bhp, which could make the VW Golf with this engine a bit lacking on high-end power.
Why does the US - out of all countries - need a "high-end power" for something that is meant to be a daily commuter car? To drag 65mph at best on the interstate? If the 1.6 is fine for German autobahn then it's already too good for the interstate.
Last but not least, bhp in diesels does not really matter that much.
WildcatYXU From Canada, joined May 2006, 2303 posts, RR: 7 Reply 82, posted (3 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2538 times:
Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 81): Why does the US - out of all countries - need a "high-end power" for something that is meant to be a daily commuter car? To drag 65mph at best on the interstate? If the 1.6 is fine for German autobahn then it's already too good for the interstate.
The sad truth is that people don't even use the car's power to accelerate properly. At least here, in Ontario, Canada. 80% of drivers takes off from the lights very slowly. Same is true for entering the motorway. I can't understand the people who have the guts to enter the highway at 80 km/h knowing that the transport trucks are riding the governor at 105 km/h.
That said, having only 110 hp wouldn't be a problem by itself. After all, there was a City Golf with the fivebanger rated at 110 hp not so long time ago. While that engine isn't available in the Golf anymore, VW still offers it in entry level Jetta's.
What would IMHO be a problem, is the combination of 1.6TDi's higher price combined with (relatively) lower power output.
Sure, it's a selective quote, but it did make me laugh!!
I believe, sir, that you may be trolling this thread (despite the fact you are the OP!!) Maybe you should have stated in your first post that anyone born / living outside the US should refrain from getting involved....
Anyway, for most (all?) auto manufacturers, Europe has MASSIVE relevance. This is because a key challenge for the manufacturers is to meet different emissions requirements and fuel economy evaluations in a cost effective (i.e. profitable) manner. They can't afford to develop fundamentally different technological solutions for every different market. Most legislators on both sides of the Atlantic understand this as well.....so I think that as a result of the recent / current global economic upheaval (rather than any sort of environmental agenda) over the next 10-15 years you will see a convergence in legislative requirements and economy evaluation tests in the US and Europe. And no, I'm not prepared to speculate as to just how far these will go - that will depend of how effective the automotive industry (including trucks) is at lobbying...........
Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel.
flanker From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1506 posts, RR: 1 Reply 84, posted (3 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2511 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 80): You're really going to love a good electric motor. No spooling up, no worries about keeping it in the power band. Instant, unrelenting torque.
I know what a electric motor feels like and its bland. Its a like a fine meat that taste like shit.
Give me the turbo spool, symphony of the motor/exhaust and that good old driver/machine relationship and I will be happy.
Twin Turbo V8 FTW!!
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 11547 posts, RR: 27 Reply 85, posted (3 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2458 times:
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 77): They already have the 2.0 143hp motor from the X18d series cars in the MINI.
I think they should offer that engine here before they offer smaller diesels in actual BMWs. A bad diesel could do serious damage to their reputation.
Quoting mham001 (Reply 80): This is already happening among some Chevy dealers and salesmen with the Volt. Prospective customers report being told "the Volt is no good, them batteries is dangerous, now let me show you a Cruze..."
They have talking pricetags now?
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
RayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 7560 posts, RR: 6 Reply 86, posted (3 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2461 times:
The main reason why VW was able to get the 2.0 TDI to the US market is simple: that engine is rated at 140 bhp, which gives it ample power for American driving preferences. That's why you see it in the Golf, Jetta, Beetle and even US-market Passat models. VW is seriously considering qualifying the higher-power 168 bhp TDI engine for the US market, and it could show up on the Tiguan small SUV and maybe the Passat sedan, too.
I do know that the 2.1-liter OM651 engine found on the Mercedes-Benz C250 CDI BlueEFFICIENCY model is being qualified for the US market, probably rated at around 190-192 bhp for the US market version. I think it will likely be found on the US-market C-Class sedan/coupe models and GLK-Class small SUV.
KiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 3628 posts, RR: 2 Reply 88, posted (3 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 2405 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 85): A bad diesel could do serious damage to their reputation.
It's not a bad diesel, it's one of the best on the market, it's the most produced engine BMW make, I've been told that more than half of all BMW's annual production uses the 2.0 diesel engine
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 11547 posts, RR: 27 Reply 89, posted (3 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2324 times:
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 88):
It's not a bad diesel, it's one of the best on the market, it's the most produced engine BMW make,
It wouldn't be the engine being poor, but if the car itself doesn't live up to people's expectations of how a BMW should perform. It could set the brand, and to some extent diesel, overall back somewhat.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
B777LRF From Luxembourg, joined Nov 2008, 719 posts, RR: 3 Reply 90, posted (3 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2307 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 85): I think they should offer that engine here before they offer smaller diesels in actual BMWs. A bad diesel could do serious damage to their reputation.
Just to make it clear, BMW produces just one 2.0 litre diesel, but it's available in 116 (16d), 143 (18d), 163 (20d ED), 184 (20d) and 205hp (25d) versions. And it's the finest 4-pot diesel in the world bar none. On the 6-pot diesel side they also produce just one motor, in various outputs from around 200 to nearly 400hp. The difference is, apart from ECU's and various oily bits, the number of turbos. 30 is single, 35 is twin and 50 is triple. The 25 used to be a 6-pot, but is being replaced by aforementioned 4-pot.
From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
Interesting, so its only the fact that its a Twin turbo and a V8 that counts? maybe thats the problem in the states, they don't want to drive their cars, just play top trumps with them?
cmf From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 1060 posts, RR: 24 Reply 92, posted (3 months 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2226 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 72): Quoting srqmuc (Reply 70):
Out of curiosity: How is the government telling you that?
1. CAFE laws. They force manufacturers to build cars that consumers don't necessarily want and may preclude them from selling cars consumers may want by fining manufacturers if they don't meet standards. Actually may have contributed to wasting fuel since it killed station wagons in favor of light trucks.
2. Gas Guzzler tax. It's a straight up surcharge for vehicles below a certain fuel mileage that gets tacked onto the price. Also at least partially responsible for the rise of the SUV. Either way, this is the only tax that rivals the inheritance tax for dumbest tax levied in the US.
Talk about not seeing the forest for the trees. But hey, as long as it it your special interest everyone else is wrong
Don’t repeat earlier generations’ mistakes. Learn history for a better future.
mirrodie From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 7334 posts, RR: 69 Reply 93, posted (3 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2185 times:
I'm thinking of a new car to replace a 2000 Altima with 102K on it. Runs well but after the wife has been sideswiped twice,
I think its time to get her a bigger cage.
So recommendations on a 2-4 year old diesel SUV? All options on the table, we're no longer brand whores.
Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
flanker From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1506 posts, RR: 1 Reply 94, posted (3 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2172 times:
Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 91): Interesting, so its only the fact that its a Twin turbo and a V8 that counts? maybe thats the problem in the states, they don't want to drive their cars, just play top trumps with them?
No, its not, I was just making a point! Whether its a single turbo, v6, 4banger or a W12... its the over all car that makes the experience worth while. However the engine is the heart of the car so yes in a sense it does matter a lot.
I was perfectly happy with my 1.8TQ A4, although I would be even happier with an S4, or URS4.
You don't need a big engine to be happy although its amazing. Personal taste bro.
Now I drive a 91 420SEL that has no power what so ever but is damn comfy and gets 14mpg.
Quoting flanker (Reply 84): Give me the turbo spool, symphony of the motor/exhaust and that good old driver/machine relationship and I will be happy.
[Edited 2012-02-14 08:46:45]
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction
Molykote From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1313 posts, RR: 33 Reply 98, posted (3 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2123 times:
I've only skimmed this thread, but I haven't seen anyone mention that (IMO) BMW simply brought the wrong diesel to the US. Any US buyer looking for power and a sporting experience would rather have the 335 (non "d") or even a 328. While I concede that the massive torque output of the 335d makes it unnecessary, the lack of a manual transmission goes further toward making the 335d less of a driver's car. All of this combined with the price premium simply makes me wonder who BMW was targeting with this vehicle. If they made a 320d available here (at a reasonable price), I think it could have sold well (all preceeding comments about the E90 chassis).
I do understand that BMW didn't want to certify two engines straight away (and that the 3.0 had more potential across the model line), but the 3.0 diesel in the 3 series is borderline idiotic in the US. I also wonder how much people paying well over $50k for a 335d (which is fairly expensive by US standards) really care about their fuel bill.
mirrodie From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 7334 posts, RR: 69 Reply 99, posted (3 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2108 times:
Yeah I thought BMW and MB had diesels here a few years.
Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
mham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2557 posts, RR: 3 Reply 100, posted (3 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2083 times:
Quoting fruitbat (Reply 83): I believe, sir, that you may be trolling this thread (despite the fact you are the OP!!) Maybe you should have stated in your first post that anyone born / living outside the US should refrain from getting involved....
If you look at the thread title, the geographical location of this discussion is fairly apparent. There is little point in you telling us what you think we need, what you have and what you think it gets when we will never see it. That information has no relevance.
Quoting fruitbat (Reply 83): Anyway, for most (all?) auto manufacturers, Europe has MASSIVE relevance. This is because a key challenge for the manufacturers is to meet different emissions requirements and fuel economy evaluations in a cost effective (i.e. profitable) manner.
Europe and the US are both losing influence to Asia. They have the growing market and the cars being designed today will be influenced by Asian needs. As that pertains to diesel/hybrids, Japan for example is going firmly hybrid. China is pushing it as well. This is not good for further development of diesel technology.
klm77 From Canada, joined Sep 2009, 141 posts, RR: 0 Reply 101, posted (3 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2060 times:
Few people mentioned about big engine sizes in North America...What's the point of owning anything bigger then a V6? Also, what on earth is the point of having a hybrid in a 6 cylinder or higher... Your not going to be helping the environment if that's what you really care about and your're not going to get great fuel economy either if that's what you're looking for, all your doing in the end is buying a bigger car and saying hey look I'm saving the planet....(No you're not...). Take for example , an S400 Hybrid and an S350 Bluetec. Hybrid cost 108,200 and diesel cost 109,900.
Hybrid figures: Engine 3.5L V6 DOHC 24-valve + electric motor HP (hp@rpm), 295 @ 6000 Torque (lb.ft@rpm), 284 @ 3000, Automatic Transmission city / highway (L/100 km) 11.2 / 7.9 , CO2 Automatic Transmission (KG/year) 4462.
Diesel figures: Engine 3.0L V6 turbo diesel DOHC 24-valves, HP (hp@rpm) 240 @ 3600 Torque (lb.ft@rpm) 455 @ 1600, Automatic Transmission city / highway (L/100 km) 10.2 / 6.3 , CO2 Automatic Transmission (KG/year) 4536.
I'm sorry but for the extra 1,900 bucks on the base price, I wouldn't even think twice of buying the diesel. Environmentally friendly? Well according to the CO2 numbers, diesel is pretty much on par with the hybrid... Fuel economy? Yea okay nobody believes those figures to be exactly true and i'm sure they're not but the diesel.... still better. If there is one major significance... torque... o wait... 455 for the diesel compared to 284 for the hybrid... who wins?
I know this example isn't the best because I'm comparing high class luxury cars, V6 engines, but if your talking about being green and being environmentally friendly, well, according to those numbers, I'm convinced diesel is pretty green compared to the hybrid...
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 14050 posts, RR: 55 Reply 102, posted (3 months 1 week 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 2067 times:
Quoting flymia (Reply 1):
People honestly think they are saving the environment driving a hybrid but they are not. The amount of extra energy and man hours etc.. it takes to make a hybrid with the battery and mining, technology far out weighs the environmental impact it saves on less gas.
This is a lie based on a heavily manipulated "study" that keeps on getting repeated. It is not true.
mham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2557 posts, RR: 3 Reply 103, posted (3 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2056 times:
VW is expected to expand the powertrain options for the new Golf....
The all-new hatch will be available with a wider range of powertrains than today’s model, including a plug-in hybrid good for 243bhp and more than 50mpg, an electric model and a super-clean version fuelled by natural gas.http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/261258/
KiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 3628 posts, RR: 2 Reply 104, posted (3 months 1 week 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2044 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 103): VW is expected to expand the powertrain options for the new Golf....
Nice selective quoting. You can bet the farm on it that the twin turbo 2.0 diesel will do way more then 50mpg.
Quote: Mainstream models will be powered by a completely new family of downsized petrol engines (codenamed EA211) and super-frugal diesel units (EA288). The range-topping non-GTD 2.0 diesel is good for 181bhp and 280lb ft (there’s also a twin-turbo 220bhp version on test for the GTD)
mham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2557 posts, RR: 3 Reply 106, posted (3 months 1 week 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1968 times:
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 104):
Nice selective quoting. You can bet the farm on it that the twin turbo 2.0 diesel will do way more then 50mpg.
No, I did not quote the entire article. Isn't that against A.net rules? Everybody (I thought) knows that they have diesel motors. Gas ones too. The news is that they are quickly expanding into hybrid/electric waters. Big news for VW.
I wouldn't be quite so cocky about those mileage numbers yet. The quickly cobbled-together Jetta Hybrid is easily VW's most efficient model in this market. That plug-in is going to blow them all away.
In other news, Toyota has had tremendous response to it's Prius C (Aqua) requiring an immediate increase in production...
Earlier this month, Hybrid Cars, again citing the Nikkei, reported that Toyota received about 120,000 orders for the Aqua from Dec. 26 - 31, the first days the car was available to the Japanese public. Toyota, which targeted sales of 12,000 Aquas a month, had already gotten about 60,000 pre-orders for the model.http://green.autoblog.com/2012/02/15...-prius-compact-to-meet-high-deman/
Flighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 6724 posts, RR: 3 Reply 108, posted (3 months 1 week 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 1917 times:
Quoting flanker (Reply 69): One of the most satisfying feelings is when you hit boost and feel the car just want to run away from underneath you.
Agree.
Turbos are great. These days it's the way to go.
Quoting Molykote (Reply 98): I do understand that BMW didn't want to certify two engines straight away (and that the 3.0 had more potential across the model line), but the 3.0 diesel in the 3 series is borderline idiotic in the US. I also wonder how much people paying well over $50k for a 335d (which is fairly expensive by US standards) really care about their fuel bill.
Yes, the buyers do not care. It was a tech demonstration by BMW. They will be beloved used cars always. But, I still think the new gas 328i turbo is the way forward. Gets the same mileage as the 335i. Probably can match its speed, too. Drool.....
mirrodie From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 7334 posts, RR: 69 Reply 110, posted (3 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1823 times:
mham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2557 posts, RR: 3 Reply 111, posted (3 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1816 times:
Quoting aloges (Reply 107): When they were quickly expanding into Diesel waters, were they signalling the death of petrol engines?
I don't doubt they were trying. Do you? VW's current gas engine lineup is pretty sorry compared to the competition. Do you not believe they were putting their eggs mostly in the diesel basket?
Quoting mirrodie (Reply 110): So perhaps diesel and gas/petrol are here to stay......
the US has enough oil. Drill baby drill while continuing to make strides in more efficiency over time...
Notice it is the dealers complaining while all the manufacturers signed on. All except VW. Anyway, claiming to know what consumers will afford 12 years from now is weak. I expect if the mileage numbers are truly unobtainable as the deadline comes up, it will be modified, just like it always has been.
WildcatYXU From Canada, joined May 2006, 2303 posts, RR: 7 Reply 112, posted (3 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1814 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 111): VW's current gas engine lineup is pretty sorry compared to the competition.
Please tell me, compared to whom? Granted, I don't understand VW's North American engine lineup either, but I'd say that VW's gasoline engines are currently among the most technologically advanced ones.
flanker From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1506 posts, RR: 1 Reply 113, posted (3 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1811 times:
Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 112):
Quoting mham001 (Reply 111):
VW's current gas engine lineup is pretty sorry compared to the competition.
Please tell me, compared to whom? Granted, I don't understand VW's North American engine lineup either, but I'd say that VW's gasoline engines are currently among the most technologically advanced ones.
Yep the Veyrons technological piece of art of an engine isnt advanced, nor is the Lambo lineup which trickles down to Audi and the likes...Oh neither is Bentley LOL...nor any of the lineups awesome diesels.
Quoting mham001 (Reply 111): VW's current gas engine lineup is pretty sorry compared to the competition
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction
mham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2557 posts, RR: 3 Reply 114, posted (3 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1812 times:
Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 112): I'd say that VW's gasoline engines are currently among the most technologically advanced ones
I am out of time here but if that were so, why have they announced they will be replacing their mainstay, the 2.5? No turbo, no direct injection, abysmal economy, a dog by all accounts. Both the 2.0 and the 2.5 are decades old. Where are these technological advances?
WildcatYXU From Canada, joined May 2006, 2303 posts, RR: 7 Reply 115, posted (3 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1800 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 114): I am out of time here but if that were so, why have they announced they will be replacing their mainstay, the 2.5? No turbo, no direct injection, abysmal economy, a dog by all accounts. Both the 2.0 and the 2.5 are decades old. Where are these technological advances?
Well, as I wrote above, I don't really understand VW's NA lineup. They have it all - direct injection, turbo, multiple turbos, turbo/supercharger combo. Just not here. Wiki has a pretty nice list:
mham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2557 posts, RR: 3 Reply 117, posted (3 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1784 times:
Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 115): Well, as I wrote above, I don't really understand VW's NA lineup. They have it all - direct injection, turbo, multiple turbos, turbo/supercharger combo. Just not here. Wiki has a pretty nice list:
Plenty of companies offer plenty of things in different markets. I am only commenting on what is offered here, a point which seems lost on plenty of posters. But anyway, you agree, VW's offering in gas engines in VWs here is pathetic.
You think they weren't banking on storming the market with diesel? Plenty of people here have fallen for the hype..."see, our TDI diesels are 40%!!! better than those silly gas engines..." all without mentioning that their gas engines are dogs to start. And failing to mention that the competition has already closed the gap with petrol.
WildcatYXU From Canada, joined May 2006, 2303 posts, RR: 7 Reply 118, posted (3 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1777 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 117): Plenty of companies offer plenty of things in different markets. I am only commenting on what is offered here, a point which seems lost on plenty of posters. But anyway, you agree, VW's offering in gas engines in VWs here is pathetic.
Yes, I have to agree with this - to a certain extent. While I sort of understand it in smaller vehicles (nobody would buy a Jetta with a 1.2 litre engine around here), I don't understand making the 2.5 litre IL5 base engine for the Passat. The Passat would definitely deserve the TSI. But OTOH, nobody offers a better choice as the base engine in their midsize sedans. So they are only going with the flow.
VW's premium offering doesn't have this problem though. This is why I wrote that I only agree to a certain extent.
Quoting mham001 (Reply 117): You think they weren't banking on storming the market with diesel?
No. Whatever the people at Wolfsburg are, they aren't stupid. They know that gasoline is the king around here, they know that only a small percentage of gas stations actually offers diesel around here. So they would definitely know that a storm like this won't work. Believe me, if the fuel would be taxed the same way as it is in Europe, they'd offer nothing but diesel vehicles.
Quoting mham001 (Reply 117): And failing to mention that the competition has already closed the gap with petrol.
That's what you keep saying. How about some data - such as results of comparative tests, etc?
mham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2557 posts, RR: 3 Reply 120, posted (3 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 1682 times:
Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 118): No. Whatever the people at Wolfsburg are, they aren't stupid.
No they are not stupid. That does not mean they don't dream of owning a (hopefully) burgeoning diesel market. They have openly spoke of their diesel hopes and I'm sure, think of becoming the diesel Prius in the US.
Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 118): That's what you keep saying. How about some data - such as results of comparative tests, etc?
mham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2557 posts, RR: 3 Reply 121, posted (3 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 1589 times:
It seems VW is also signaling the death of diesel in Asia as well....
VW plans to start EV production in China in 2014
Feb 14 (Reuters) - Volkswagen AG's two joint ventures in China plan to start making electric cars in 2014 and to ramp up to mass production by 2018, its China chief said on Tuesday.
Initial EV output at Shanghai Volkswagen and FAW Volkswagen was estimated at a few thousand vehicles, rising to 100,000 by 2018, the president and chief executive of Volkswagen's China operations, Karl-Thomas Neumann, told an EU-China business convention in Beijing.
E-vehicles have so far been limited by cost batteries, and a lack of economies of scale and models considered appealing to car buyers, but Neumann said they were needed to reduce China's pollution and reliance on oil.
"I am convinced e-vehicles will be a success in China because I think it is desperately needed," he told the convention.
....just before they launch a new plugin Golf in the west.....
VW Golf Plug-in Hybrid
The MkVII Volkswagen Golf will be available with hybrid power – a first for the Golf. And we’ve driven a prototype of the plug-in.
It’s based on the current three-door model, and featured a 1.4-litre TSI turbo petrol engine, boosted by an 80Kw electric motor. It also had a lithium-ion battery that can be topped up from the mains.
On the move, the plug-in Golf is very impressive indeed. Under most driving conditions it’s effectively an electric car – and you really need to press very hard on the throttle for the petrol engine to cut in at all.
In town, it’s fast enough for you to breeze through traffic. Plus, the motor is so powerful, the engine is barely used on high-speed roads.
VW says the Golf will have an electric-only range of around 30 miles and should be able to return 141mpg with overall CO2 emissions as low as 46g/km.
IH8BY From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1085 posts, RR: 3 Reply 122, posted (3 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1571 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 121): ....just before they launch a new plugin Golf in the west.....
Exciting stuff, certainly, though who's to say that a plug-in diesel hybrid wouldn't have even more impressive emissions and fuel efficiency than the gasoline hybrid? Likewise, who's to say, as gasoline engines improve in efficiency and performance, that diesels won't also improve?
I don't see why this has to be such a polarised issue. I welcome the developments in gasoline and hybrid technology - at the end of the day, vehicles that are more efficient without making severe compromises on performance are a win-win situation for drivers and for our environment.
I drive a diesel at the moment and until such time as the car I want to drive gets a gasoline or hybrid engine that offers a better blend of performance and efficiency for the right price I will continue to drive diesels. The 1.6 litre diesel in my car is lively, economical and very smooth, and that's enough for me for the time being. I am interested in hybrids, but at this point the choice is limited, particularly amongst smaller cars, and the price premium too high.
Have you ever felt like you could float into the sky / like the laws of physics simply don't apply?
mham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2557 posts, RR: 3 Reply 123, posted (3 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1567 times:
Quoting IH8BY (Reply 122): Exciting stuff, certainly, though who's to say that a plug-in diesel hybrid wouldn't have even more impressive emissions and fuel efficiency than the gasoline hybrid? Likewise, who's to say, as gasoline engines improve in efficiency and performance, that diesels won't also improve?
I don't see why this has to be such a polarised issue. I welcome the developments in gasoline and hybrid technology - at the end of the day, vehicles that are more efficient without making severe compromises on performance are a win-win situation for drivers and for our environment.
Those are good points. I believe there are reasons that diesel hybrid may not make it. The diesel premium for one thing. Also that diesel is apparently not passing the stop-start emission tests. How much farther gas progresses is anybody's guess. Much of the recent improvements to gas engines were first introduced on diesel. BMW is saying they believe they have reached limits with ICE. Time will tell.
The polarization comes from the incessant diesel whining and claims that the world is doomed without it among some circles. In the US, we are at a junction in transportation energy policy. Do we focus on the next incremental step - diesel, which is ultimately a dead-end, or do we jump to what will be our future, pure ev through hybrids. Fortunately, our government is focusing on the future.
This mule was spotted recently cold weather testing. The font on the door suggests VW...
fruitbat From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 496 posts, RR: 7 Reply 124, posted (3 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 1536 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 123): I believe there are reasons that diesel hybrid may not make it. The diesel premium for one thing. Also that diesel is apparently not passing the stop-start emission tests.
What's the "diesel premium"? Is this a US-only thing or does Europe have it as well? Is it real?
I note the use of the word "apparently". Surely any hybrid (where the electric motor does the low speed work) will pass the stop-start emissions test? Or am I missing something? Does the stop-start test that you are referring to start before the vehicle has stopped, or not stop after the vehicle has started?
I have a diesel auto with stop-start (yes it IS possible!) and it seems to be OK for the European market.......obviously it's the NOx / CO2 / reputation of diesel / car manufacturers / Obama / recession / GOP / big oil / stonecutters (delete as applicable) that kills the option in the US..........
I love the way we've spent 120+ posts arguing about US vs Europe emissions and economy standards and no-one has provided a summary of the differences between the two or a way of converting one to the other so we can really understand what's going on......then again, knowing the way these things work, doing this would result in a PhD award!
Quoting IH8BY (Reply 122): I don't see why this has to be such a polarised issue.
Polarisation (trans: Polarization ) in the argument is because that there are evangelists (on both sides) who make claims that are more subjective than objective......human nature, and much like any other topic, really.........
Weaseling out of things is important to learn. It's what separates us from the animals ... except the weasel.
I think this is in reference to the start / stop systems of non-hybrid vehicles such as that on the VW Bluemotion / Skoda Greenline etc. I think it's a great system that the engine shuts down when you're stationary at traffic lights an instantly starts up as soon as you depress the clutch. As it's a fuel saving measure, I can't see how it would fail emission regulations as there are no emissions when it shuts down and very little when it starts up again. It's estimated to save an average of 10g/km in the car I drive. With energy recouperaton thrown in for good measure, it's half way to being a hybrid and as I've said before, this combination in my experience gives a better fuel consumption than the Prius I had.
Darren
Equipment: Canon EOS 50D & 350D; Sigma 10-20 EX DC HSM, 50-500 EX APO DG, Canon 24-105 f/4 L, Speedlite 430EX
aloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 7589 posts, RR: 51 Reply 126, posted (3 months 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1458 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 123): The polarization comes from the incessant hybrid whining and claims that the world is doomed without it among some circles.
There, I fixed it for you.
Quoting fruitbat (Reply 124): Polarisation (trans: Polarization ) in the argument is because that there are evangelists (on both sides) who make claims that are more subjective than objective.
Just take a look at some other threads on Diesel and/or hybrid engines started by the member who started this one.
Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
mham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2557 posts, RR: 3 Reply 127, posted (3 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 1406 times:
Quoting fruitbat (Reply 124): What's the "diesel premium"? Is this a US-only thing or does Europe have it as well? Is it real?
The diesel premuim here is approximately $2-3k for the more heavily built diesel engine (and the direct injection, etc goodies). On top of that, diesel fuel costs 10-20% more than gas. A diesel could make financial sense for the average US driver only if one of those premiums were missing.
Quoting fruitbat (Reply 124): I have a diesel auto with stop-start (yes it IS possible!) and it seems to be OK for the European market
But won't pass US emissions. Too many pollutants on startup.
Quoting aloges (Reply 126): Just take a look at some other threads on Diesel and/or hybrid engines started by the member who started this one.
All in response to wild claims of diesel saving the world, much from your side of the pond. I have never commented on the European decision to push diesel 15 years ago. It made sense then. I have always actually liked diesel engines, enough so that I once studied its history. Different story today.
So the question is, why are you as a German who generally argues for anything green, so adamantly opposed to a US policy that weans it off foreign oil relatively quickly?
RayChuang From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 7560 posts, RR: 6 Reply 128, posted (3 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1388 times:
I think right now diesel again makes sense, especially now with the new Euro6 emissions certification, which means diesel engines effectively as low-polluting as better gasoline (petrol) engines.
As such, that drastically reduces the barrier for Mercedes-Benz and BMW to offer their smaller turbodiesel engines for the US market. M-B has officially said their 2.2-liter turbodiesel engine will arrive in the US market starting in early calendar year 2013 (probably with the C250 BlueTec and GLK 250 Bluetec models), and BMW has suggested that we could see their 2.0-liter I-4 turbodiesel also come to the US market in early 2013 (probably with the 120d coupe, 320d sedan, and X1 xDrive20d small SUV).
aloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 7589 posts, RR: 51 Reply 129, posted (3 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1367 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 127): So the question is, why are you as a German who generally argues for anything green, so adamantly opposed to a US policy that weans it off foreign oil relatively quickly?
I am not at all opposed to electric cars - provided of course that the generation of the electric power required to run them doesn't pollute more than an ICE. I do oppose hybrid engines because in my view, they unite the worst of both worlds - complicated and heavy electric systems plus the weight, complexity and pollution of an ICE. If you're going to have an ICE, make it the best it can be and don't faff about with half-baked additions. If you're going to have an electric car, make that the best it can be and at worst add a small petrol-powered range extender.
As for going off foreign oil, I distinctly remember a clip collage from the Daily Show where they had quotes from every president since Carter (or earlier) pledging to make the US energy-independent within such-and-such time.
My personal utopia contains massive solar power plants in e.g. deserts used to power hydrogen generation plants and and a car fleet that runs mostly on that fuel.
Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
geezer From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 715 posts, RR: 1 Reply 130, posted (3 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1343 times:
Quoting njxc500 (Reply 49):
I don't think diesel is going anywhere...not gonna happen. My work truck is 475HP and 1000TQ, still makes 18-20 MPG on the highway, can pull a house, rides "fairly" comfortable and will run for almost a million miles. Show me a hybrid that can do it all. Not gonna happen.
Tell me njxc500, are you driving a Ford, G.M. or Dodge Ram and getting 18-20 MPG ?
My 2000 stock Cummins is only about 250 HP, with maybe, if I'm lucky, about 450 lbs ft of trorque; I haven't pulled any houses with it, but with the truck at 7,500 lbs and my 22 ft tilt deck trailer at 2,500 lbs, I have made 4 or 5 trips from Cincinnati to near Terre Haute with about 5 tons on the trailer. I don't get my usual 19 to 20 mpg with the trailer though.
Just a word of advice.......keep your fuel filter element changed regularly............new injection pumps are a BITCH !
Aesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 3001 posts, RR: 3 Reply 131, posted (3 months 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 1277 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 127): So the question is, why are you as a German who generally argues for anything green, so adamantly opposed to a US policy that weans it off foreign oil relatively quickly?
Drilling more is not exactly green, and diesel isn't either (but no worse than petrol).
One point to consider is that the US must import gas and export diesel fuel currently, since the consumption is so unbalanced. France is in the opposite situation, and that's no better.
Considering Americans love heavy cars and SUV, those should definitely be mostly diesel powered.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
mham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2557 posts, RR: 3 Reply 132, posted (3 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1256 times:
Quoting aloges (Reply 129): I am not at all opposed to electric cars - provided of course that the generation of the electric power required to run them doesn't pollute more than an ICE. I do oppose hybrid engines because in my view, they unite the worst of both worlds - complicated and heavy electric systems plus the weight, complexity and pollution of an ICE. If you're going to have an ICE, make it the best it can be and don't faff about with half-baked additions. If you're going to have an electric car, make that the best it can be and at worst add a small petrol-powered range extender.
The hybrids we see today are only the beginning and a necessary first step towards plugins and pure EVs. (BTW, there are several types of systems of varying complexity and weight, the Buick hybrid weighs the same as the V6) Plugins are going to change everything and that complexity you moan (can't believe that's coming from the land of the most complex cars ever) will allow us to ditch a large, large percentage of our fuel purchases. From there, pure Evs, as battery tech moves forward, are the next logical step, and if too much complexity is a problem, electrics are simpler by many factors. I'm good with hydrogen and CNG too, we just need to lose the oil. Diesel does nothing for that and is a dead end. Implementing a diesel policy in this country will barely, if that, cover year-to-year growth.
I was a hybrid hater 10 years ago too. I was wrong. Toyota has proven that they work, the batteries are robust, the cars are safe and they are today, the mileage kings.
As for going off foreign oil, I distinctly remember a clip collage from the Daily Show where they had quotes from every president since Carter (or earlier) pledging to make the US energy-independent within such-and-such time.
The Daily Show is a farce. I was also one who would have derided Carter as a fruity nutcase. In fact I did. Problem is, in hindsight, he was right. If he had been able to get his energy policy through 35 years ago, we would be in much better shape today. We need a Manhatten type project. Since then, only George W Bush and Barack Obama have made serious attempts to get off oil. Success will have immense implications, all of them positive for my country. Because of this, I will be voting for Obama, my first Democratic presidential vote.
This is Obama's proposed budget for the Dept of Energy...along with $4 billion in oil subsidy cuts....
KiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 3628 posts, RR: 2 Reply 133, posted (3 months 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1236 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 132):
The hybrids we see today are only the beginning and a necessary first step towards plugins and pure EVs.
I doubt we will ever be driving pure electric cars in massive numbers, they will remain city cars for the most part. I'm convinced that hydrogen is the future of motoring, electric is just a sop to the environmental crowd.
dazbo5 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 2087 posts, RR: 5 Reply 135, posted (3 months 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 1214 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 132): I was a hybrid hater 10 years ago too. I was wrong. Toyota has proven that they work, the batteries are robust, the cars are safe and they are today, the mileage kings.
But you keep forgetting that those that have driven them in the real world (and not relying on manufacturer figures) don't necessarily agree with your statements. While Toyota certainly moved things forward and produce an admirable product, I'm still not convinced by hybrids. I car shared with 2 work colleagues at the beginning of the month to a meeting 78 miles from our office while my boss, who has a Prius took two in his. Given the same mileage, route, road conditions and traffic, guess who won the mpg race? I'll give you a clue, I was having a beer that night and he wasn't. In city driving alone, I've no doubt he'd have been having the beer but in mixed driving and once you leave the city, hybrids aren't all they are cracked up to be. Good yes, but ...
Aesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 3001 posts, RR: 3 Reply 136, posted (3 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1154 times:
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 133): I doubt we will ever be driving pure electric cars in massive numbers, they will remain city cars for the most part. I'm convinced that hydrogen is the future of motoring, electric is just a sop to the environmental crowd.
You mean hydrogen electric, with a fuel cell ?
Still, hydrogen is a pain to stock, and that won't go away. It's also dangerous, or at least perceived as such.
If your beef with electric is range, what do you think of Better Place ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
KiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 3628 posts, RR: 2 Reply 138, posted (3 months 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1137 times:
Quoting Aesma (Reply 136): You mean hydrogen electric, with a fuel cell ?
I do, I think hydrogen fuel cells are the future.
Quoting Aesma (Reply 136): If your beef with electric is range, what do you think of Better Place ?
So if I wanted to drive 1000km with Better Place I'd probably have to change batteries 5-6 times, hope that the correct replacement battery was ready for me, nope it's rubbish. Until battery technology is good enough to cover the range of the average diesel powered car it's not going to be good enough for me.
mirrodie From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 7334 posts, RR: 69 Reply 139, posted (3 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1123 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 127): why are you as a German who generally argues for anything green, so adamantly opposed to a US policy that weans it off foreign oil relatively quickly?
A quick fix is not necessarily the best. Why does it have to be 'all or none'? I thought this was America. I thought we were allowed certain freedoms of choice.
Why not drill more, lower the price of oil here in the US AND continue toward more remarkable hybrid/alternative energy cars?
Quoting RayChuang (Reply 128): BMW has suggested that we could see their 2.0-liter I-4 turbodiesel also come to the US market in early 2013 (probably with the 120d coupe, 320d sedan, and X1 xDrive20d small SUV).
Would be curious to see the small SUV.
Quoting mham001 (Reply 132): The hybrids we see today are only the beginning and a necessary first step towards plugins and pure EVs. (BTW, there are several types of systems of varying complexity and weight, the Buick hybrid weighs the same as the V6) Plugins are going to change everything and that complexity you moan (can't believe that's coming from the land of the most complex cars ever) will allow us to ditch a large, large percentage of our fuel purchases. From there, pure Evs, as battery tech moves forward, are the next logical step, and if too much complexity is a problem, electrics are simpler by many factors. I'm good with hydrogen and CNG too, we just need to lose the oil. Diesel does nothing for that and is a dead end. Implementing a diesel policy in this country will barely, if that, cover year-to-year growth.
So you agree these are a beginning and necessary first step. You acknowledge that. Yet why throw out old proven technology in the meantime?
mham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2557 posts, RR: 3 Reply 140, posted (3 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1083 times:
Quoting mirrodie (Reply 139): Why not drill more, lower the price of oil here in the US AND continue toward more remarkable hybrid/alternative energy cars?
I don't disagree with that much, but believing that US oil will influence the price of oil in any great degree is an old mistake. We will not drill our way out of this.
Quoting mirrodie (Reply 139): So you agree these are a beginning and necessary first step. You acknowledge that. Yet why throw out old proven technology in the meantime?
I'm not throwing it out, I'm refusing to embrace it, as the likes of VW would like us to do. It would be a colossal mistake for the US to embrace diesel now as our savoir and get complacent (again) when it has nowhere left to go. It won't get cleaner. It won't get more economical. It won't get more prolific. It is a dead end. Electricity is cleaner and getting more so, it is cheaper and getting more so and it is only beginning. Electricity is not filling the pockets of Hugo Chavez, the House of Saud or (indirectly) the Ayatollah.
Quoting dazbo5 (Reply 135): Out of interest, I take it you're driving a Prius or EV?
Nope. Wouldn't be caught in a Prius and waiting for a plugin I can afford. I'd be all over a Volt if my daughters didn't enjoy their expensive school.
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 133): I doubt we will ever be driving pure electric cars in massive numbers, they will remain city cars for the most part. I'm convinced that hydrogen is the future of motoring, electric is just a sop to the environmental crowd.
If it ain't oil, go for it. One thing I don't fully understand is the desire for another fuel to which you are beholden to some large corporation. I'll take that electricity, which I am fully capable of creating on my own. Cheaply too. Maybe that can change for hydrogen...
Thats another thing. Over the last 2 years, the Chinese have flooded the solar panel market. Solar power is approaching the cost of cheap coal. The beauty of it is that anybody who sees the sun in moderate degrees can make their own fuel without government or corporate intrusion. And they don''t need to keep paying for it. This is a wonderful thing. A $10k investment now will easily power a full household and commute cars for >30 years. Easily. Only problem right now is storage. How can you charge a car at home directly from your panels when you use it during the sunlight hours? Swap fuel cells?
KiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 3628 posts, RR: 2 Reply 141, posted (3 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1075 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 140): I'll take that electricity, which I am fully capable of creating on my own. Cheaply too. Maybe that can change for hydrogen...
But not everyone can, what about people who live in apartments.
Quoting mham001 (Reply 140): This is a wonderful thing. A $10k investment now will easily power a full household and commute cars for >30 years.
As above, what it you live in an apartment, or in a place without much sunlight?
So you're lucky but more people aren't going to be living in a situation where you can fill up their cars with free electricity. The rest of us will have to pay, there will come a time when the currently free public charging points won't be free, I guess it will be sometime within the next 10 years.
dazbo5 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 2087 posts, RR: 5 Reply 142, posted (3 months 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1063 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 140): Nope. Wouldn't be caught in a Prius and waiting for a plugin I can afford
So why all the hybrids are king talk then? Surely you should be practicing what you're preaching here? You didn't answer the question either. That is exactly part of the points many of us have been making and you seem to be dismissing. It's ok Tesla et al bringing out all the EV vehicles, but the vast majority of the population can't afford anything near to the price range they are offered at and given the alternatives for a lot less money, that's the reason why they aren't king yet either and diesel is a current alternative for affordable motoring.
Quoting mham001 (Reply 140): I'll take that electricity, which I am fully capable of creating on my own
You obviously have the privilege of having the room, finances and sunlight in order to do that. A lot of the world hasn't. The UK is going through an energy review at the moment with opposition to nuclear, not wanting to be reliant on fossil fuels, hydroelectric being insignificant and environmentally damaging in some cases, wind power seen as either being an eyesore or concentrated in part of the country making distribution an issues, solar being ok when we get some sunlight, to name but a few. If everyone went EV, we wouldn't have anything left for lights and kettles! There are no ideals and major compromise is needed. If only we lived in a perfect world.
Darren
Equipment: Canon EOS 50D & 350D; Sigma 10-20 EX DC HSM, 50-500 EX APO DG, Canon 24-105 f/4 L, Speedlite 430EX
swissy From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 1711 posts, RR: 6 Reply 144, posted (3 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 904 times:
Quoting Rabenschlag (Reply 143): Whatever may happen to the Diesel in the US, we are about to enjoy a few more fast and frugal diesels on the eastern side of the pond.
There is plenty of "life" left in a diesel... the sky is the limit but we have to see passed our nose and not live in the past anymore , guess the US is just not be able to see past their nose tip and forget the lousy diesels of the past I just wish there would be more diesels available in Canada...
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 11547 posts, RR: 27 Reply 145, posted (3 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 878 times:
Quoting Rabenschlag (Reply 143): Whatever may happen to the Diesel in the US, we are about to enjoy a few more fast and frugal diesels on the eastern side of the pond.
That car could skyrocket to the top of the list of great cars America doesn't get, but hopefully BMW will see the light. It will be a fine compromise between performance and practicality and should be more than a competitor for the Audi S cars.
And nobody ever bricked a diesel, no matter how careless they may be.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
mham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 2557 posts, RR: 3 Reply 147, posted (3 months 17 hours ago) and read 784 times:
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 141): But not everyone can, what about people who live in apartments.
There will be charging points, not everybody can mount panels on their roof, but millions and millions can.
Quoting dazbo5 (Reply 142): So why all the hybrids are king talk then?
Because hybrids lead to plugin hybrids which drives research to develop better batteries which will provide us with an OIL-FREE transportation system. It is mind boggling the most resistance seems to come from the European side. What happened to that smug 'green' attitude we see so often?
Quoting dazbo5 (Reply 142): Surely you should be practicing what you're preaching here?
If I were buying new cars, you would have a point. I drive a 12 year old econo car and a work truck. I drive my cars until they drop. The only vehicles I have ever bought new are motorcycles. Speaking of which, there are some killer electric bikes out. I think I'll start a new thread....
Quoting dazbo5 (Reply 142): You didn't answer the question either.
What question?
Quoting dazbo5 (Reply 142): The UK is going through..........
For the third (fourth?) time, you have confused me with somebody who cares what happens with European energy policy. I don't. Why do you care so much what we drive here?
Quoting dazbo5 (Reply 142): It's ok Tesla et al bringing out all the EV vehicles, but the vast majority of the population can't afford anything near to the price range they are offered at and given the alternatives for a lot less money
You fail to realize that battery prices are currently dropping like a rock. ~75% in the last 2 years and another 50% expected in the next 2 years. Notice that the Prius price has actually dropped in the 12 years or so since they were introduced. The Prius C will retail for under $20k. You cannot buy a diesel here for less that $25k.
Quoting swissy (Reply 144): There is plenty of "life" left in a diesel... the sky is the limit
Really. What is the next step for diesel? BMW recently said they believed they had reached limits with only the possibility of smaller motors. Explain how diesel could relieve the US of it's foreign oil problem. Please. With numbers. Actual figures including expected growth.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 145): And nobody ever bricked a diesel, no matter how careless they may be.
JJJ From Spain, joined May 2006, 1487 posts, RR: 2 Reply 148, posted (2 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 671 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 147): There will be charging points, not everybody can mount panels on their roof, but millions and millions can.
I already have panels, they give me hot water which in turn helps the gas boiler in keeping the house warm. I have ridiculously low gas bills for that.
Quoting mham001 (Reply 147): What happened to that smug 'green' attitude we see so often?
You're misunderstanding everyone. What most of us are saying is that gas hybrids now can't beat a well-proven technology that already exists and works. There's no need to upgrade infraestructure or to pump billions in research because we have it now, and the savings can be had now, not in 10 or 20 years time.
It will take several years for electricity to be a viable alternative to fossil fuels. Until then, diesels simply make more sense than gas from a purely environmental point of view.
From an economic point of view, it depends on miles driven, but especially in the US a lot of drivers (and the environment) would be much better off if the choice of diesel engined cars was better.
I think you're getting your future and present tenses mixed up in all this. You're taking about the future while we're talking about the present. You can't charge a vehicle at a charging point that isn't in place yet! Of course the future will see more efficient and affordable products. But that's the future. What are you going to drive until such time as that becomes mainstream?
Quoting mham001 (Reply 147): For the third (fourth?) time, you have confused me with somebody who cares what happens with European energy policy. Why do you care so much what we drive here?
Since we all live on the same planet, you should care. I was only pointing out it wasn't as simple as you seem to think. I wasn't comparing anything at different sides of the pond. The atmosphere has no borders.
Quoting mham001 (Reply 147): If I were buying new cars, you would have a point.
Now we're getting down to it. You're criticising others and basing your judgement on something you haven't or don't drive? Many of the comments on here, and many others on threads you've started are from people who drive both diesel and hybrid vehicles, or at least have experience of them. It seems you haven't other than manufacturer quotes that you quite rightly pointed out, are not always accurate.
Quoting mham001 (Reply 147): It is mind boggling the most resistance seems to come from the European side. What happened to that smug 'green' attitude we see so often?
That isn't true, it's just we have an alternative at the moment that in many cases are more fuel efficient. Once hybrid technology is a clear advantage over diesel and electric becomes mainstream, diesel will be the choice of the majority at this side of the pond. Again, we're talking current tense rather than future. As for smug, I wouldn't say that but the company I work for holds a commendation for Fleet of the Year (above 250 vehicles) at the latest Green Fleet Awards running a fleet of diesel and LPG vehicles.
Quoting mham001 (Reply 147): Really. What is the next step for diesel?
Diesel powered vehicles get more fuel efficient every year. It's not all about the actual mechanics of the engine, it's the whole package. Couple it with hybrid technology that is starting to come on the market, even diesel-electric, and the future of diesel is rosy. Diesel will be around for a while yet.
Quoting mham001 (Reply 147): You fail to realize that battery prices are currently dropping like a rock. ~75% in the last 2 years and another 50% expected in the next 2 years.
I don't fail to realise it at all. I'm looking at the current prices of EV's and they are beyond my budget and that of the majority. Plus I'd have nowhere to charge one in a reasonable time currently. Products normally get cheaper as years go by but that doesn't help at the moment. We've just had a fast charging point installed at our office and we get a new EV on trial in April so it'll be interested to take that out for a spin and see if it lives up to it's reported range (I won't hold my breath on that). It might be useful to go between offices, but probably won't be of much use day to day in our jobs until more charging points are available.
Quoting mham001 (Reply 147): The Prius C will retail for under $20k. You cannot buy a diesel here for less that $25k
I can appreciate where you're coming from with that as you don't have the choice of engines that we have over here. From our perspective though, the Prius et al are more expensive (by some margin) to similar specified diesel models with similar fuel consumption making them less attractive. It's not that many don't like hybrids, there are better choices currently.
Quoting mham001 (Reply 147): which will provide us with an OIL-FREE transportation system
Is that ever realistically going to happen? In our lifetimes anyway. While vehicles over the next 10-20 years may go more towards electric, and I fully support that by the way, you have to remember the power to charge them has to come from somewhere. Is coal / oil / gas ever going to be superceded by nuclear, solar and wind? There are no such things as zero emission vehicles that EV's are claimed to be when you factor in where they are powered from.
Darren
Equipment: Canon EOS 50D & 350D; Sigma 10-20 EX DC HSM, 50-500 EX APO DG, Canon 24-105 f/4 L, Speedlite 430EX
mirrodie From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 7334 posts, RR: 69 Reply 151, posted (2 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 544 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 140): colossal mistake for the US to embrace diesel now as our savoir and get complacent (again)
I do agree there but I don't think anyone here has toted diesel as being the savior. Yet YOU are the one ringing bells that it has died while the followers stayed near its tomb, and have returned to see it rise again.....sounds familiar....
anyway,
Quoting mham001 (Reply 140): I'd be all over a Volt if my daughters didn't enjoy their expensive school.
Whats a Volt go for anyway? Personally, its too small a car for me.
Here is my own observation. We have an SUV and ever since driving from that platform, I can't imagine driving a sedan anymore. The point of view is great, so now anytime I get into a car, its like you're dragging your a** on the floor.
But we are constantly screwed out of choices offered abroad. Yes we American soccer moms want our big cars but we also want a choice in how its powered. Why not offer more choices in diesel platforms? Ah,wait, that IS happening now!
AND,....keep working on more hybrid and electric choices as well. But don't take any the choices we have.
Shit, SPAM is still offered for sale. If there is a market for spam,....
Quoting JJJ (Reply 148): What most of us are saying is that gas hybrids now can't beat a well-proven technology that already exists and works. There's no need to upgrade infraestructure or to pump billions in research because we have it now, and the savings can be had now, not in 10 or 20 years time.
Well said. Its not about ditching old and proven stuff or the new stuff. It should all be worked together toward the common goal of better efficiency.
Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
Sticker is north of $40k, and with the price credit you'll still pay over $32,000 for a compact car. Obviously, you could buy a standard compact car and a buttload of fuel with the change at that price point. But, considering that GM's had trouble moving them, you might be able to get yourself a deal on a Volt.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
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Word is travelling so fast that people aren't even trying to go to their Chevy dealers because they believe they can't possibly land a Volt. And the poor dealers have been forced to turn down some or all of their Volt allocations because of it. 
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That's all there is to this.
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.Same with the Mk4's, they were only offered with the 2.0 unless you went TDI or GTI.
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