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Tesla Unveils Electric Crossover 0-60 In 4.4  
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3681 posts, RR: 3
Posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2266 times:

Tesla unveiled its crossover yesterday, the Model X. It has some very impressive numbers as well as some interesting design features. Built on an extended Model S frame, they say it will be offered with 2 battery options with the range of the larger pack at ~280 miles. Seats 7, has 2 trunks, the front is cavernous as there is no motor in the usual spot. 0-60 in 4.4 seconds, the base motor will be 300hp with a second 150hp as an option. No torque figures have been released, although that should be easily computed. All wheel drive can be had with that second motor. Recharge time of 4 hours. Elon Musk says the turning radius is the same as a Mini Cooper. Price will range from ~$57k-90k.



More space than a minivan. Quicker than a Porsche 911 Carerra. The functionality of a minivan and the performance of a sports car. What could go wrong?

Well, some might say the practicality of the one feature most people will grasp, the swing-up doors.


How that will play out in snow country remains to be seen.

Another issue is price. Tesla opined that they would bring a car for the masses. $60+K does not exactly fit that category.

91 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21677 posts, RR: 55
Reply 1, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2260 times:

Quoting mham001 (Thread starter):
What could go wrong?

Perhaps this:

Quoting mham001 (Thread starter):
with the range of the larger pack at ~280 miles.

And how long is it going to take to recharge that? If it's anything over fifteen minutes, I don't really see the point.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3681 posts, RR: 3
Reply 2, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2258 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
And how long is it going to take to recharge that? If it's anything over fifteen minutes, I don't really see the point.

4 hours to fully recharge. I suppose that fails it, because everybody drives 281 miles a day.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21677 posts, RR: 55
Reply 3, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2253 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 2):
because everybody drives 281 miles a day.

If I were going to spend that much money on a car of that type (i.e. one that can hold a lot of stuff), I'd want to use it on a road trip or two.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineALTF4 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1214 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2233 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
If I were going to spend that much money on a car of that type (i.e. one that can hold a lot of stuff), I'd want to use it on a road trip or two.

On the other hand, if I had the money to spend on a car of that type, I'd just rent another car when I have to drive more than 300 miles in a day.

Granted, I don't have money to spend on a car like that, so I'm not going to.



The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2432 posts, RR: 24
Reply 5, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2220 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
If I were going to spend that much money on a car of that type (i.e. one that can hold a lot of stuff), I'd want to use it on a road trip or two.

At least in Denmark, it makes good sense to buy an electric vehicle since it is almost tax free, and there is free parking in the city. Normal tax on a car is 180% of its original value and then you also have to pay for the car itself of course. . So go figure  

[Edited 2012-02-10 13:16:36]

User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21677 posts, RR: 55
Reply 6, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2213 times:

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 4):
On the other hand, if I had the money to spend on a car of that type, I'd just rent another car when I have to drive more than 300 miles in a day.

But then you couldn't show it off to your buddies.

Electric cars are going to be great someday. But they need to get past the time-to-charge barrier first - until they do that, I can't see them being anything other than novelty pieces.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineALTF4 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1214 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2206 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
But then you couldn't show it off to your buddies.

Are you implying I'm such a hill-billy that I don't have friends within a 300 mile radius of me?  
Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
Electric cars are going to be great someday. But they need to get past the time-to-charge barrier first - until they do that, I can't see them being anything other than novelty pieces.

Spot on.



The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
User currently offlineswissy From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 1734 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2199 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
Electric cars are going to be great someday. But they need to get past the time-to-charge barrier first - until they do that, I can't see them being anything other than novelty pieces.

Agree, do like the looks and I do hope that car will be reality. For us it could work just fine since we have 2 cars and 99% of the time only one is being used  

Cheerios,


User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2841 posts, RR: 12
Reply 9, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2194 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 3):
If I were going to spend that much money on a car of that type (i.e. one that can hold a lot of stuff), I'd want to use it on a road trip or two.

You're point below is valid, no doubt, but charging stations are getting more and more convenient in places like Seattle or even across WA state in general. That said, very few vehicle trips are made over that distance. The last time I took a trip with a 1 way distance over 200 miles was last July. From Seattle I could drive to Vancouver, BC or Portland with that range. It basically has a full tank of gas range, and how many people go on a trip frequently enough to burn an entire tank of gas?

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):

Electric cars are going to be great someday. But they need to get past the time-to-charge barrier first - until they do that, I can't see them being anything other than novelty pieces.

At $57-90K/vehicle I'd guess people buying this would have another car that looks just as nice. Off topic I know, but do all new electric cars have to have noise generators on them now?



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 60
Reply 10, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2187 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 9):
It basically has a full tank of gas range, and how many people go on a trip frequently enough to burn an entire tank of gas?

Agreed. I think it's another case of people wanting certain functionality because they might use it someday. 4-wheel-drive is similar...many people refuse to live without it because they might need it 2 or 3 times per year. To them, being prepared for those two or three potential trips is worth dealing with inferior fuel economy for the rest of the year, and more expensive maintenance over the lifetime of the vehicle.

In the case of electric vehicles like this one, some people will use similar logic and will opt for a less efficient vehicle that is otherwise identical. They might want to go on 2 or 3 longer trips every year, so they'll sacrifice fuel economy for the other 99% of their driving to accommodate those trips.



Intentionally Left Blank
User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3790 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2182 times:

It looks awfully like a Citroen DS5...




And it looks nice, but it's a bit pricey for a city car.
You could save yourself 30K and buy yourself a luxury compact.
30K buys you a lot of gas...



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15778 posts, RR: 27
Reply 12, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 2167 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 11):
30K buys you a lot of gas...

And there is a big, big issue for all the electric cars.

Assume you could buy a Model X for $80k. A BMW X5 diesel can be had for $60k and the savings will buy enough $4.00 per gallon fuel to go about 100,000 miles.

A Mercedes ML diesel does even better. You could get one of those for about $55k, and the savings could take you up to 130,000 miles.

Of course, maybe performance matters too. In which case that $80k could buy you a nice sports car or sports sedan and an SUV.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2841 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2138 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 11):
And it looks nice, but it's a bit pricey for a city car.
You could save yourself 30K and buy yourself a luxury compact.

Why would someone looking to buy a CUV with three row seating for 7 buy a luxury compact instead?



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2121 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
Electric cars are going to be great someday. But they need to get past the time-to-charge barrier first - until they do that, I can't see them being anything other than novelty pieces.

The most realistic solution I've seen is where they standardized batteries and made them easily switchable. They had it setup so a robot did the job and it would take one or two minutes so essentially like filling up today.

I think this is a beautiful solution but can't see OEMs be able to agree on a standard so think it is doomed.

The other option is to accept that most days we drive well below a full charge and for those days we need more distance rent a different car.


User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 15, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2080 times:

Quoting mham001 (Thread starter):
Recharge time of 4 hours.

That sounds ridiculously optimistic. That can't possibly be from a fully discharged state. No way. Many laptops take longer to charge than that.

What's your source? I searched over 10 articles on the car already and checked the official website and can't find a single mention about charge times.

Quoting mham001 (Thread starter):
What could go wrong?

I bet it weighs like a tank. Those batteries ain't light. Sure it may be fast in a straight but I bet it's a hog on the curves. Top Gear clearly showed how the roadster's heavy weight ruined the once epic handling the original platform had, which is borrowed from the Lotus Elise...

http://www.topgear.com/uk/videos/electric-shocker


User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3790 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2037 times:

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 13):
Why would someone looking to buy a CUV with three row seating for 7 buy a luxury compact instead?

Why would someone buy a luxury CUV with 3 rows seating for 7 that can't go outside of town?

I'm sure even posh soccer moms do cross country trips once in a while...

But fine, even if in that case, you could still go for a 'standard' compact-ute and still get enough change to buy you years worth of gas...



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3681 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1986 times:

A little too much is being made of the mileage. Let's say I need to drive SJ-LA. 5+ hours, just over 300 miles. I do it 3-4 times a year but rarely will I do it all at one time. There is generally always a food break. 1 hour will charge approximately 62 more miles. More than enough to get to LA and pushing the limits of what I want to drive in a day anyway.

That said, those mileage numbers Tesla gives are at 55 mph. I don't know what relevance that has, I could not drive I-5 at 55. Nor do they talk about weight in the car for that mileage. Realistically, my trip to LA would need a longer break in the plan.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 15):
That sounds ridiculously optimistic. That can't possibly be from a fully discharged state. No way. Many laptops take longer to charge than that.

What's your source? I searched over 10 articles on the car already and checked the official website and can't find a single mention about charge times.
http://www.teslamotors.com/models/facts and several magazine articles. Tesla website says 62 miles worth of charge time per hour.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 15):
I bet it weighs like a tank. Those batteries ain't light. Sure it may be fast in a straight but I bet it's a hog on the curves. Top Gear clearly showed how the roadster's heavy weight ruined the once epic handling the original platform had, which is borrowed from the Lotus Elise...

It may not be as heavy as you think, remember there is no ICE and no transmission. I thought I saw something about 4,200 lbs.
The day I believe Top Gear's entertainment as a true representation of a car is the day I need to check in to a mental hospital. They have their agenda.


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7550 posts, RR: 4
Reply 18, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1973 times:

Quoting mham001 (Thread starter):
they say it will be offered with 2 battery options with the range of the larger pack at ~280 miles.

Big fail that would get me to the next town over from where I live but I'd then have to wait around for it too recharge before I come home again, until an electric vehicle can give me a 500 mile range it's going to be next to useless.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 2):
4 hours to fully recharge. I suppose that fails it, because everybody drives 281 miles a day.

Some live a long way from anywhere, so yup I can easily drive 280 miles in a day if I need to. I also take my family on car holidays and have been known to tow things from time to time, what would the range be towing a 3500kg boat, bugger all I'm sure.


User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2841 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 1957 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 16):
Why would someone buy a luxury CUV with 3 rows seating for 7 that can't go outside of town?

If the range they are advertising is correct at around 450 km on a full charge then I don't see why you are arguing that they are selling a vehicle that can't get outside of town. The majority of vehicle trips are within town anyway.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 18):
Some live a long way from anywhere, so yup I can easily drive 280 miles in a day if I need to. I also take my family on car holidays and have been known to tow things from time to time, what would the range be towing a 3500kg boat, bugger all I'm sure.

Then someone with these driving habits obviously aren't who they're marketing this vehicle to. I could go buy a F-350 with a tow package, but realistically I'm only going to use it a few times a year. The market they're trying to market too is someone who would buy a Porsche Cayenne not a F-350.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7550 posts, RR: 4
Reply 20, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 1940 times:

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 19):
The market they're trying to market too is someone who would buy a Porsche Cayenne not a F-350.

So people who buy Cayennes (hopefully me in the next couple of years) don't go on long drives or tow. Our next family vehicle (according to my wife) will be one of the following an X5/Cayenne/Q7/M Class/Touareg/Discovery or RR Sport, it needs to be able to tow a 2000kg boat, be able to get from where I live to Oslo (580km) in a day, it's then got to be able to get me, the family, and maybe the boat from Oslo to the Mediterranean coast in two days, my demands aren't high, they aren't much different form many others, I can't see the Model X getting close to being able to do what I want done. The Model X is a great big city car, it's not for someone who wants a Cayenne or similar.


User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3681 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1911 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 16):
Why would someone buy a luxury CUV with 3 rows seating for 7 that can't go outside of town?

The very same people who use SUV/CUV 4x4s as grocery haulers with the intent of maybe someday driving to Tahoe. Thinking about it, this is the size in which there is to be had the highest percentage of fuel savings. Exactly the size vehicle we need to wean off oil first.


User currently offlineACDC8 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 7643 posts, RR: 35
Reply 22, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1900 times:

Quoting ALTF4 (Reply 4):
On the other hand, if I had the money to spend on a car of that type, I'd just rent another car when I have to drive more than 300 miles in a day.

If you're gonna spend that kind of money on a car, one had better not have to rent a car for a roadtrip or weekend getaway. Sorry, but its one thing to spend $15-$20K on a small, fuel effecient car to get around town on a day to day basis but to spend 3 - 5 times that on a car that can't even get you to the cottage and back without a 4 hour re-charging break is just plain useless. If I'm gonna put that kind of coin down for a vehicle, I intend to drive it everywhere and not spend even more money at Budget and wait to see what I end up with.



A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
User currently offlineKingairTA From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 458 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1891 times:

How much range is lost running ac or heat? Where are you going to charge it when you get where your going? If you do find a place will it be 110 or 220.

Novelty is all it is.

Now if they can come up with something similar to the Volt for a price comparable to a competitive conventionally powered car then they'll have something.


User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3790 posts, RR: 11
Reply 24, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1889 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 21):
The very same people who use SUV/CUV 4x4s as grocery haulers with the intent of maybe someday driving to Tahoe.

But will they buy this thing knowing that they can't drive to Tahoe, regardless of whether they do or not?

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 19):
If the range they are advertising is correct at around 450 km on a full charge then I don't see why you are arguing that they are selling a vehicle that can't get outside of town.

I just drove 450Km the other day on an 'errand' I had to run.
The city I drove to was 200Km away, plus the running around in the city, and boom, 450Km.
It was under 20 deg F that day so I had the heater on full blast the whole way, which is not a problem in a gas engine but would be a huge drain on a battery if I'd had to use an electric heater.

At the end of the day, I would have been stuck somewhere on the highway 50 klicks from home.

I'm not saying you can't get out of town, but you certainly can't go far away from it, and you'd better plan ahead if you do.

I'm not against electric cars, especially for driving around town, but let's face the facts: they're still far from practical when outside of it.
There might be a day when you can do a full recharge in minutes at any station across the country and drive over 300 miles on a charge with full climate control, but until then gas will reign king for better or worse.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2841 posts, RR: 12
Reply 25, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1914 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 20):
So people who buy Cayennes (hopefully me in the next couple of years) don't go on long drives or tow. Our next family vehicle (according to my wife) will be one of the following an X5/Cayenne/Q7/M Class/Touareg/Discovery or RR Sport, it needs to be able to tow a 2000kg boat, be able to get from where I live to Oslo (580km) in a day, it's then got to be able to get me, the family, and maybe the boat from Oslo to the Mediterranean coast in two days, my demands aren't high, they aren't much different form many others, I can't see the Model X getting close to being able to do what I want done. The Model X is a great big city car, it's not for someone who wants a Cayenne or similar.

I'm not debating that this vehicle is going to be everything for everyone, but if you have enough money to spend on a $100K car with room for 7 and 3 row seating you are more than likely going to have another $50K+ car in the driveway as well. One that could likely do everything you think you need to do 6 times a year. You're making this argument like you only have one vehicle.

I don't buy for one minute that anyone with a Cayenne is towing a trailer or driving 200 km everyday. Just like I don't believe that people with 4WD vehicles use 4WD more than a handful of times a year.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlineACDC8 From Canada, joined Mar 2005, 7643 posts, RR: 35
Reply 26, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1916 times:

So here's a question ... if you have a car that can go from 0-60 in 4.4 seconds, you're obviously burning a lot more fuel than you would if you would accelerate in a much more moderate manner. So how does this work with electric cars? Do you drain the battery more/faster if you punch it for quick acceleration?


A Grumpy German Is A Sauerkraut
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15778 posts, RR: 27
Reply 27, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1913 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 16):
But fine, even if in that case, you could still go for a 'standard' compact-ute and still get enough change to buy you years worth of gas...

Not even a compact one. You could buy a luxury SUV and still have tons of cash left for gas.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 17):
There is generally always a food break. 1 hour will charge approximately 62 more miles.

...because every Denny's has an outlet in the parking lot. Granted the infrastructure changes are far less than for hydrogen, but still.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 17):
That said, those mileage numbers Tesla gives are at 55 mph. I don't know what relevance that has, I could not drive I-5 at 55. Nor do they talk about weight in the car for that mileage.

It's going to matter.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 17):
The day I believe Top Gear's entertainment as a true representation of a car is the day I need to check in to a mental hospital. They have their agenda.

Except Top Gear is absolutely right in this case. In going from an Elise to a Tesla Roadster, the Lotus packed on 700 lbs. Essentially, they killed it.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 21):
Exactly the size vehicle we need to wean off oil first.

We don't need to be forcibly weaning anything off of oil. If people want to tool around town in a vehicle that gets 5 mpg, it's their problem. If you want an electric car that badly, go buy one. (I hear there are plenty of Volts around looking for buyers) But don't try and force anyone else to buy electric cars because for many of us, they simply don't meet our needs.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7550 posts, RR: 4
Reply 28, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1914 times:

This vehicle would probably be a success if it had a range extending fuel cell, the pure electric vehicle is only useful as a city runabout, which this clearly isn't.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 25):
One that could likely do everything you think you need to do 6 times a year. You're making this argument like you only have one vehicle.

I have two vehicles but only one is big enough to fit everyone, I can't fit everyone in my Countryman nor can I tow a boat with it, nor has it got enough luggage room to take the family away on a trip. Our next major purchase is probably going to be a weekend getaway house (very common in Norway almost everyone has one or access to one) where we would like to buy is about 3 hours from where we live, I'm going to be pushing to get there with a Model X if I've got a full vehicle and towing a trailer, plus there is a lot of uphill driving which will I guess place a larger strain on the battery.


User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2841 posts, RR: 12
Reply 29, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1916 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 24):
I'm not saying you can't get out of town, but you certainly can't go far away from it, and you'd better plan ahead if you do.

Yes you are, because you said this:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 16):
Why would someone buy a luxury CUV with 3 rows seating for 7 that can't go outside of town?

Every argument I've seen so far in this thread goes completely against the real world driving habits of people. Yes, there are going to be people that this car won't work for, I readily admit that. But, the overwhelming majority of people who own cars don't use a vehicle to drive over even as much as 100 km a day. Here's the real data on US travel patterns:

U.S. daily travel averages 11 billion miles a day — 40 miles per person per day
The average US driver drives 29 miles a day
45 percent of daily trips are taken for shopping and errands (that means up the street, less than 10 miles)

http://www.bts.gov/programs/national...ld_travel_survey/daily_travel.html

In a two car household that buys "luxury vehicles" this will work. If you have this hypothetical need to tow a boat, RV or trailer 5-10 times a year or drive farther than 450 km a day...well get a big truck, buy another SUV, or one of those luxury compacts you talked about.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlineswissy From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 1734 posts, RR: 4
Reply 30, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1906 times:

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 29):
Every argument I've seen so far in this thread goes completely against the real world driving habits of people. Yes, there are going to be people that this car won't work for, I readily admit that. But, the overwhelming majority of people who own cars don't use a vehicle to drive over even as much as 100 km a day. Here's the real data on US travel patterns:

  

Like I said already.... it would work in our case because we can flip the car if one of us has to drive excessively... no problem to install a 240v or higher charging station in our garage.

We average about 80km a day...

cheerios,


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7550 posts, RR: 4
Reply 31, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1903 times:

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 29):
If you have this hypothetical need to tow a boat, RV or trailer 5-10 times a year or drive farther than 450 km a day...well get a big truck, buy another SUV, or one of those luxury compacts you talked about.

Why is it a hypothetical need, it's not, a lot of the people I work with jump into there cars on a friday afternoon and drive anywhere up to 400km to holiday home and ski huts nearly every weekend, why would they want an SUV type vehicle which wouldn't have the range to do this?

The Model X is pretty much a non starter since it won't be able to do what most folks want a vehicle like this to do even if they rarely do it.


User currently offlineswissy From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 1734 posts, RR: 4
Reply 32, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1898 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 31):
The Model X is pretty much a non starter since it won't be able to do what most folks want a vehicle like this to do even if they rarely do it.

I would say it is the ignorance of the majority of people not willing to accept Model X would work in most cases   but hey it runs on electric    (agree, price or predicted price is high)

The only major draw back is it charging time.... electric cars did exist before gas... however they lost out as soon the gas cars came widely available... lots changed since then  

Cheerios,

PS also have a look at the MB GL with the diesellllll   lots of power/space/range and towing  


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7550 posts, RR: 4
Reply 33, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1886 times:

Quoting swissy (Reply 32):
I would say it is the ignorance of the majority of people not willing to accept Model X would work in most cases but hey it runs on electric (agree, price or predicted price is high)

That's it problem it's expensive and can't do what the vehicles it competes against can.

Quoting swissy (Reply 32):

PS also have a look at the MB GL with the diesellllll lots of power/space/range and towing

Very very expensive in Norway, well over 1 million NOK for the base model with no options, for that kind of money I'd buy a Range Rover before a GL, not that I could afford either.


User currently offlineswissy From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 1734 posts, RR: 4
Reply 34, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1871 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 33):
Quoting swissy (Reply 32):

PS also have a look at the MB GL with the diesellllll lots of power/space/range and towing

Very very expensive in Norway, well over 1 million NOK for the base model with no options, for that kind of money I'd buy a Range Rover before a GL, not that I could afford either.

Holly cr... what if you received a GL as a "gift" lets say from Canada   payed by an anonymous person named KiwiRob  

cheerios,


User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 35, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1867 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 27):
But don't try and force anyone else to buy electric cars because for many of us, they simply don't meet our needs.

Who is forcing it on anyone? Don't want it, don't buy it. That simple.

But are the people who want it allowed to buy it without being told it can't do a lot of things they don't need?

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 29):
Every argument I've seen so far in this thread goes completely against the real world driving habits of people.

  

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 28):
This vehicle would probably be a success if it had a range extending fuel cell, the pure electric vehicle is only useful as a city runabout, which this clearly isn't.
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 31):
Why is it a hypothetical need, it's not, a lot of the people I work with jump into there cars on a friday afternoon and drive anywhere up to 400km to holiday home and ski huts nearly every weekend, why would they want an SUV type vehicle which wouldn't have the range to do this?

I know a lot of people who live like you describe. But not five of them live here in Miami. Here the range is plenty enough. It is plenty enough for driving the kids to school, soccer and what not. Even better, it has 7 seats so now friends can come along again. That was tough when everyone had to have Mazarati.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 31):
The Model X is pretty much a non starter since it won't be able to do what most folks want a vehicle like this to do even if they rarely do it.

Again, have to disagree. Performance is plenty enough for most people here in Miami. Price is a different issue. But that isn't different from today. They people who will buy this car are already driving cars most people can't afford.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 33):

That's it problem it's expensive and can't do what the vehicles it competes against can.

It is not expensive. The people who will buy it here have gone through Cayenne, Bentley, Mazarati and are currently driving Panamera. This will be the most practical car they have had in ages. Not that practical matters.


User currently offlineprebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6480 posts, RR: 54
Reply 36, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1851 times:

A while ago a test of electric cars was made here in Denmark. A few cars were put in the hands of "ordinary people" who commuted some 25km back and forth to work. The test was conducted during six months of the cold season.

It wasn't an expensive Tesla X, but a rather modest micro car with a 25-30 kW/h battery which could be charged overnight using a pretty standard household electric installation. And an advertised range of slightly over 100km.

The general consensus of the test drivers was that it was COLD! And it was pretty difficult to look out of the windscreen because of dew.

In order to make it home in the afternoon it was clever not to run the heating system. That wouldn't have been a problem during summer, but then those cars were not equipped with air conditioning.

When there was snow on the road, or worse - half melted snow, the the wheel drag increased to the point where they had to call rescue service to make it back home.

The special low drag tires on the cars were awful in winter conditions, and illegal in most other European countries in winter conditions. Snow tires were not available. If they had been available, then they would have increased the power consumption since good snow tires have considerably higher running drag on a dry road than ordinary summer tires. (Funny thing, unlike all neighbor countries, here in Denmark it isn't strictly illegal to drive in snow on summer tires - it's only stupid - it will change when the law makers find out).

As for the Tesla X, it would be nice if they gave us a few more numbers, for instance the battery capacity. But from the data given we can calculate some rough data.

A 7 seat full size car with exceptionally low air drag and exceptionally low drag tires on a dry road - roads flat as Texas - driving constantly 55 mph will require approximately 20kW power. Going not 55 miles, but 280 miles, that will be 110kW/h on the wheels. Assuming a 90% efficiency on the motor and power train that calls for a 120kW/h battery. That's heavy duty stuff!!! No wonder it is expensive.

Charging that at home in just four hours, well, that's possible. But that will require an electric installation which is roughly ten times bigger that what blows our fuses at an ordinary household installation. That installation will cost a nice little fortune in addition to the car. Still expensive, but way less expensive if you can accept a full charge to last 12 hours instead.

Electricity comes for free, well, almost. Not so much in my country where it is taxed like everything else, more so for households than industries. I pay US$ 0.39 per kW/h. Assuming 90% efficiency on the battery charger, and 90% on the battery itself a full charge runs on just under 150kW/h = $58.

$58 for 450km isn't too bad. That's roughly the same as my VW Golf 1.4 TSI with today's local gas price = $8.00/gallon. So if you pay less than $8/gal, then you'd better also have some cheaper electricity.

But what are the real figures when we drive up and down hills, start and stop in town traffic, run headlights, heating/air-con, windscreen wipers, and when we drive on snow using snow tires etc.? Is it less than half like the Danish test showed? 200km for $58 isn't a bargain.



Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15778 posts, RR: 27
Reply 37, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1849 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 35):
Who is forcing it on anyone? Don't want it, don't buy it. That simple.

Except that the government subsidizes these things and raises CAFE standards and gas guzzler taxes. Where's my tax credit?



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 38, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1835 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 37):
Where's my tax credit?

Why should you get a tax credit for using old technology? Why should we not invest in alternatives?


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15778 posts, RR: 27
Reply 39, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1834 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 38):
Why should you get a tax credit for using old technology?

Why should they get a tax credit for using new technology?

Quoting cmf (Reply 38):
Why should we not invest in alternatives?

If by "we" you mean car companies, they absolutely should since there is a lot of money to be made. If by "we" you mean the government, it shouldn't be done because that is not the government's business. It crosses the line between good regulation and bad regulation.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 40, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1829 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 39):
Why should they get a tax credit for using new technology?

You forgot to answer why you should get a tax credit for using old technology.

As to why new technology should get it. Because it is good for the country to direct resources in that direction.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 39):
If by "we" you mean car companies, they absolutely should since there is a lot of money to be made. If by "we" you mean the government, it shouldn't be done because that is not the government's business. It crosses the line between good regulation and bad regulation.

Tesla is a private company.

Completely fail to understand why the government should not invest in making the country better. Think of government as a company with citizens as shareholders and you will probably understand better.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21677 posts, RR: 55
Reply 41, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1828 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 39):
Why should they get a tax credit for using new technology?

Because it's worth encouraging investment in.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15778 posts, RR: 27
Reply 42, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1827 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 40):
You forgot to answer why you should get a tax credit for using old technology.

Well, they get one for buying a car, I should get one for buying a car.

Quoting cmf (Reply 40):
Because it is good for the country to direct resources in that direction.

If the technology is really worthwhile, private entities will have no trouble directing resources themselves. Companies don't need the government to inform them which technologies are worthy of development.

Quoting cmf (Reply 40):
Tesla is a private company.

...that got nearly a half billion in government loans. So have GM and Fisker (who just announced layoffs by the way).

Quoting cmf (Reply 40):
Completely fail to understand why the government should not invest in making the country better.

This isn't investing in making the country better, this is investing in cars. It crosses a line. If they want to make the country better go rebuild roads and hike speed limits up 30 mph.

Quoting cmf (Reply 40):
Think of government as a company with citizens as shareholders and you will probably understand better.

Really? When do I get my dividend check? Can I diversify to protect myself from executive idiocy?  

See that's the problem. The government isn't a company and we aren't shareholders. The government is the government and should act as such, and not try to be everyone's fund manager. I can find other, smarter people to help me manage my money.

Quoting Mir (Reply 41):
Because it's worth encouraging investment in.

Good. Then you go invest in it and leave the rest of us to manage our money as we see fit. Seriously, this isn't rocket science.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7550 posts, RR: 4
Reply 43, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1803 times:

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 36):
But what are the real figures when we drive up and down hills,

Luckily for you Denmark doesn't have any hills, it's flatter than Texas.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 36):
start and stop in town traffic, run headlights, heating/air-con, windscreen wipers, and when we drive on snow using snow tires etc.? Is it less than half like the Danish test showed? 200km for $58 isn't a bargain.

With winter running increasing battery drain you'll probably have to plug it in every second night, it'll probably end up more expensive to run than a conventional diesel powered SUV, especially in countries with expensive electricity like Denmark and Norway.


User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2841 posts, RR: 12
Reply 44, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 1763 times:

Where to start....

Quoting swissy (Reply 32):
The only major draw back is it charging time....

I can't disagree with this point. I'm not going to be the first to go run out and buy an electric car, but if a company comes along saying you can go 450 km on a charge and I go and post government statistics about the average trip distance people in the US drive and I continue to hear how someone absolutely has to have the ability they need to tow a trailer, RV, boat or drive 500 km a day, they're arguing against real world data.

Quoting cmf (Reply 35):
Who is forcing it on anyone? Don't want it, don't buy it. That simple.

Absolutely right. No one here is going to force anyone on this forum to buy one, why do you all feel like we're trying to make you?

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 36):
The general consensus of the test drivers was that it was COLD! And it was pretty difficult to look out of the windscreen because of dew.

That's a valid point. And, it's one that if you're trying to get every bit of the 450 km they say you can travel on a full charge would be a problem, but if you look at the statistics I posted above you probably could run the heat or AC for the majority of the trips people make over a year.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 27):
Not even a compact one. You could buy a luxury SUV and still have tons of cash left for gas.

Depends on which luxury SUV someone buys.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 27):
We don't need to be forcibly weaning anything off of oil. If people want to tool around town in a vehicle that gets 5 mpg, it's their problem. If you want an electric car that badly, go buy one. (I hear there are plenty of Volts around looking for buyers) But don't try and force anyone else to buy electric cars because for many of us, they simply don't meet our needs.

Who's forcing you?

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 18):
until an electric vehicle can give me a 500 mile range it's going to be next to useless.

Again, that goes against all the statistics. If it doesn't work for you fine, don't buy one.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3681 posts, RR: 3
Reply 45, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1755 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 24):
But will they buy this thing knowing that they can't drive to Tahoe

Actually, they could make it to Tahoe from SF, it is a major destination option for ~5 million people.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 27):
If people want to tool around town in a vehicle that gets 5 mpg, it's their problem.

No, it is my problem too because I am subsidizing their waste.

Quoting cmf (Reply 35):
It is not expensive. The people who will buy it here have gone through Cayenne, Bentley, Mazarati and are currently driving Panamera. This will be the most practical car they have had in ages. Not that practical matters.

Exactly. I missed in a previous answer, according to a writer at Automotive News who was at the event, Tesla is attracting the trendy nouveau riche, not so much the soccer moms. http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dl...e?AID=/20120210/OEM05/120219980/-1

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 36):
A while ago a test of electric cars was made here in Denmark. A few cars were put in the hands of "ordinary people" who commuted some 25km back and forth to work. The test was conducted during six months of the cold season.

Maybe they should have used a better car. One of Tesla's main markets is Scandinavia. Maybe somebody can translate... http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...layer_detailpage&v=U-fMmw17v7g

These people don't seem to have too much trouble.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=tH_mSJC21f8

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 36):
$58 for 450km isn't too bad. That's roughly the same as my VW Golf 1.4 TSI with today's local gas price = $8.00/gallon. So if you pay less than $8/gal, then you'd better also have some cheaper electricity.

Your electricity is quite high. Beyond that, your numbers are all significantly off because you made wrong assumptions in the beginning. Battery pack sizes are well publicized, 60 and 80 kWh. A full recharge will not require all that because battery draw will be limited to preserve them. How much Tesla dictates, I don't know but the Volt uses 50% and the Leaf ~80%.

Quoting cmf (Reply 40):
You forgot to answer why you should get a tax credit for using old technology.

The kid is 18 years old and stubbornly refuses to acknowledge the immense costs oil places on society. He's not worth the time, especially with statements like this....

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 42):
This isn't investing in making the country better, this is investing in cars.


User currently offlineflanker From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1641 posts, RR: 2
Reply 46, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1755 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 2):
4 hours to fully recharge. I suppose that fails it, because everybody drives 281 miles a day.
Quoting mham001 (Thread starter):
What could go wrong?

There it is : $60,0000 for a 4 hour recharge at 280miles. Throw it in the garbage and start again.



Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a drug dealer an unlicensed pharmacist
User currently offlineflanker From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1641 posts, RR: 2
Reply 47, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1753 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 6):
Electric cars are going to be great someday. But they need to get past the time-to-charge barrier first - until they do that, I can't see them being anything other than novelty pieces.

Spot on bud!



Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a drug dealer an unlicensed pharmacist
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 48, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1742 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 42):
Well, they get one for buying a car, I should get one for buying a car.

Because it is not given for buying a car. It is given to incentivise the alternatives that are good on a macroeconomic level.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 42):
If the technology is really worthwhile, private entities will have no trouble directing resources themselves. Companies don't need the government to inform them which technologies are worthy of development.

LOL. You make the mistake to think what is good for companies is always good for the country.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 42):
...that got nearly a half billion in government loans. So have GM and Fisker (who just announced layoffs by the way).

So what? Don't set unrealistic requirements. And spare us the Limbaugh blindfold logic.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 42):
This isn't investing in making the country better, this is investing in cars. It crosses a line. If they want to make the country better go rebuild roads and hike speed limits up 30 mph.

No. It is about making the country better.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 42):
Really? When do I get my dividend check? Can I diversify to protect myself from executive idiocy?

The rules to select management are well established. If you don't like the dividends use the established processes to change it or move somewhere where things work the way you like and hope they will accept you.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 42):
See that's the problem. The government isn't a company and we aren't shareholders. The government is the government and should act as such, and not try to be everyone's fund manager. I can find other, smarter people to help me manage my money.

Of course they are not a company, but you're wrong when you say we are not the shareholders. There are many differences in the rules of how they operate but for both the goal is to make the "owners" happy.

Biggest difference is that governments are creating environments that are long term beneficial for the people living in their jurisdiction.

Fortunately most people are smart enough to understand this and vote for politicians supporting these policies.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 42):
Good. Then you go invest in it and leave the rest of us to manage our money as we see fit. Seriously, this isn't rocket science.

It isn't rocket science, but a bit of economics will help.


User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3790 posts, RR: 11
Reply 49, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 1714 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 45):
Actually, they could make it to Tahoe from SF, it is a major destination option for ~5 million people.

Tahoe is about 200 Miles from downtown SF, which means you'd have to leave it there for a charge for a few hours before attempting to go back.

Quoting cmf (Reply 35):
Who is forcing it on anyone? Don't want it, don't buy it. That simple.

Exactly, but the issue there is whether enough people will be interested buy it to make it anything other than another anecdotal electric car attempt.
Still, I'm glad they're getting better.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 29):
Yes you are, because you said this:

Let's not start picking on semantics.
I'm just not seeing the point of marketing such a car. no doubt some people will buy it, maybe the very wealthy who already own a Panamera and want something a little more trendy to show off their earth-loving edge to their neighbor.

Otherwise, the range limitation, lack of available charging facilities and the length of said charge make it a very uncompetitive product compared to the gas powered competition.
It will only appeal to the rich greenies as mentioned above, in fact, I'm sure De Caprio, Clooney, Diaz and all the other Prius drivers up in Hollywood have ordered one already.
Technology only imposes itself when it becomes more practical/economical than the one it replaces. That's the way it works. You can't ask people to change their habits just because we need electric cars, but make the electric car as practical and cheap as a gas engined car and they will come.

The other hurdle on the way of electric cars is taxes:
70 cents of every Euro I spend on gas goes my dear government (varies depending on countries, but the point remains).
If we all suddenly stopped driving on gas and used electricity, I'm fairly certain my dear government will want to get that money from me elsewhere. It's badly enough in debt as it is...
Now, I'm not worried, my dear government excels in finding smarter and sneakier ways to tax us, so at the end of the day, I'm unconvinced electric cars will make driving cheaper.
Thus remains the ecological advantage, which is that which least worries most buyers...

Some way to go yet.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15778 posts, RR: 27
Reply 50, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1682 times:

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 44):

Who's forcing you?

The government is actively and blatantly attempting to influence my buying decisions, and I don't appreciate it.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 45):
No, it is my problem too because I am subsidizing their waste.

No, you're not. There is nothing stopping the government from recalling all the troops and aircraft carriers in the Middle East tomorrow, which incidentally, might accomplish what all these idiotic tax credits and loans have failed to do.

You just don't like how the government uses its resources. You do this moronic drivel in every single thread, and you're still wrong.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 45):
The kid is 18 years old and stubbornly refuses to acknowledge the immense costs oil places on society. He's not worth the time, especially with statements like this....

How much oil I use isn't anybody's problem but mine. It's that simple.

Quoting cmf (Reply 48):
It is given to incentivise the alternatives that are good on a macroeconomic level.

The government shouldn't be giving incentives for alternatives, it isn't their purpose. If the alternatives were that good they wouldn't need incentives in the first place anyway.

Quoting cmf (Reply 48):
LOL. You make the mistake to think what is good for companies is always good for the country.

If the government has to push these companies (who let's remember are horribly greedy and whose executives would sell their own mothers, or so the story goes) to develop alternatives and they are not willing to do so on their own, despite the potentially huge payoff for doing so, what might that tell you?

A little logic goes a long way.

Quoting cmf (Reply 48):
The rules to select management are well established. If you don't like the dividends use the established processes to change it or move somewhere where things work the way you like and hope they will accept you.

The point is that I do not want nor do I need the government to invest my money for me. I can do that on my own. If I wanted stock in GM, I'd buy GM stock. If I wanted stock in Tesla, I'd buy Tesla stock. I don't need the government to tell me where I should invest my money.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 51, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1668 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 50):
How much oil I use isn't anybody's problem but mine. It's that simple.

As long as you take care of all side effects from using that oil, sure. But you not doing that.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 50):
The government shouldn't be giving incentives for alternatives, it isn't their purpose.

Actually it is.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 50):
If the government has to push these companies (who let's remember are horribly greedy and whose executives would sell their own mothers, or so the story goes) to develop alternatives and they are not willing to do so on their own, despite the potentially huge payoff for doing so, what might that tell you?

Don't try to make this in to some political stereotype about greed. The issue is that what is good on the company level often isn't good for the country, microeconomics and macroeconomics.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 50):
A little logic goes a long way.

It does. Understanding the full picture goes further.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 50):
The point is that I do not want nor do I need the government to invest my money for me.

You do want most of the things government provide. You just do not understand it yet.

What you really do not want is a society where regulation is created by industry. Where most of what is provided by government is provided by private companies instead. Can you imagine having to pay a traffic light fee at each intersection. Having to negotiate right of way whenever you want to go somewhere. Hey, if you use extremes then so can I. A society without government would be a horrible place.

So you may think you do not want government to provide incentives, but it is part of how society get ready for tomorrow. And if you give it some thought, you will understand industry alone is not capable of preparing society for the future. Both are needed are needed to make life good for what matters, the people.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15778 posts, RR: 27
Reply 52, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1662 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 51):
As long as you take care of all side effects from using that oil, sure. But you not doing that.

I swipe my card at the pump, like everybody else. That's all I care about, but that doesn't mean I won't fight government attempts to manipulate me. Swipe the card, pump the gas, go drive. How the gas gets to the pump doesn't concern me in the least.

Quoting cmf (Reply 51):
Don't try to make this in to some political stereotype about greed.

Oh but it is. The same people telling us that alternative energy is ready for the mainstream now and the government needs to push it are the same people whining about how greedy companies are. But if alternative energy is as big a goldmine as they would have us believe, why aren't the greedy companies making the investment on their own to hit it big?

Quoting cmf (Reply 51):
You do want most of the things government provide.

Let's see. I need the military. I need the police and justice system. Roads and airports are nice too, but some of that could stand to be privatized. It's nice when they negotiate treaties and stuff for me, that would be a bitch to do on my own. It's also nice when the government makes sure that the toaster I buy won't kill me and my car won't fold like an accordion if I get in an accident.

But here's what I don't need: I don't need the government to tell me what or how much to put in my gas tank. I don't need the government to tell me what technology is best for the future. I don't need the government to tell me how to invest my money. And I don't need Social Security, I can save my own damn money.

Quoting cmf (Reply 51):
What you really do not want is a society where regulation is created by industry.

Industry has to be involved since 1) government bureaucrats skew towards being morons and 2) industry people are the people who know the most.

Quoting cmf (Reply 51):
A society without government would be a horrible place.

Good thing we have a government then. If only we could get them hemmed in where they belong.

Quoting cmf (Reply 51):
And if you give it some thought, you will understand industry alone is not capable of preparing society for the future.

Yes they are. What do you think oil companies are going to say when the last oil well runs dry? "Well, we're out guys. Pack it up and good luck finding a new job." Of course not, companies are greedy and will look for new ways to make money. That's why greed is a wonderful thing.

Quoting cmf (Reply 51):
Both are needed are needed to make life good for what matters, the people.

Have government to make sure that a new technology won't blow up and kill us all and private industry for everything else.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 53, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1655 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 52):
Quoting cmf (Reply 51):
Don't try to make this in to some political stereotype about greed.

Oh but it is.

No it isn't. But the extremest on both sides try to make it all black and white like that.

For the rest of us it is about attacking problems smartly.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15778 posts, RR: 27
Reply 54, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1653 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 53):
For the rest of us it is about attacking problems smartly.

Good. Then car companies can attack problems smartly with their own money. If they aren't willing to put their own money into it, how sound of an investment could it be? If they aren't going to put their money into it, I sure as hell don't want my money being put into it without my consent.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinestasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3283 posts, RR: 6
Reply 55, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1654 times:

Quoting mham001 (Thread starter):
Tesla unveiled its crossover yesterday

Honda called - they said that they want their Crosstour's ass-end back   



"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 56, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1641 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 54):
I sure as hell don't want my money being put into it without my consent.

Consent is given at elections. If you don't like the result you're free to move.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15778 posts, RR: 27
Reply 57, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1637 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 56):

How can people not have a problem with these subsideies? Companies are basically saying "we don't feel comfortable putting our money into it, but we'll be more than happy to use yours."



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 58, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1626 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 57):
How can people not have a problem with these subsideies? Companies are basically saying "we don't feel comfortable putting our money into it, but we'll be more than happy to use yours."

Because they understand a good deal when they see one. They understand that society gets much more back than what they invest.

Your characterisation that companies say the will not put in their funds is fundamentally wrong. Companies put in money. Subsidies in whatever form they take speed up the process. Of course it doesn't work each time. Neither does company funded R&D.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15778 posts, RR: 27
Reply 59, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1619 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 58):
Because they understand a good deal when they see one.

If it's a good deal, I'll make it myself. Or hire a fund manager to do it. It isn't something for the government to be doing.

Quoting cmf (Reply 58):
Your characterisation that companies say the will not put in their funds is fundamentally wrong.

Not at all. They don't need the government's money if the idea is that wonderful. There are how many venture capitalists, private equity funds, hedge funds, etc. around to help fund the next big thing?

If the you are unwilling or unable to put the funds into an idea, and the banks won't loan you money for it, and the hedge fund managers won't invest in it, and the private equity people won't invest in it, and the angel investors won't invest in it, and the venture capitalists won't invest in it why is it all the sudden okay for the government to involuntarily put my money into the idea?

Quoting cmf (Reply 58):
They understand that society gets much more back than what they invest.

Screw society, this is a business issue. It's always been a business issue and always will be a business issue. Until "society" sends me a dividend check, that is irrelevant. It's an extraordinarily poor idea for the government to be pushing ideas that do not pull their weight economically. And I'm sure that all of the people employed in the oil industry are pleased that the government is trying to torpedo their industry.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 60, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1618 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 59):
Screw society, this is a business issue. It's always been a business issue and always will be a business issue. Until "society" sends me a dividend check, that is irrelevant. It's an extraordinarily poor idea for the government to be pushing ideas that do not pull their weight economically. And I'm sure that all of the people employed in the oil industry are pleased that the government is trying to torpedo their industry.

Good luck in finding a society that work the way you want. The rest of us enjoy the benefits of working together.


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7550 posts, RR: 4
Reply 61, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1601 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 45):
One of Tesla's main markets is Scandinavia.

I've never seen a Tesla in any Scandinavian country, it doesn't mean there isn't the odd one or two here but I don't see it as a main market, I also wouldn't base that on a video review from a financial newspaper on youtube either.


User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2432 posts, RR: 24
Reply 62, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1595 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 61):
I've never seen a Tesla in any Scandinavian country,

I saw at least 10 Tesla Roadsters the last time I was in Oslo.


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7550 posts, RR: 4
Reply 63, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1583 times:

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 62):
I saw at least 10 Tesla Roadsters the last time I was in Oslo.

You're probably confusing them with Elises.

Anyway now that it's been decided you could get from LA or San Fran to Tahoe for a days skiing, charge her up whilst there and drive her back, there is another problem, where do you put your skis, with the fancy opening doors there's now way you can put racks or a roof box on top to crry them.

According to Musk these door will make production.



User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3790 posts, RR: 11
Reply 64, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1577 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 63):
According to Musk these door will make production.

I hope they're not electrically powered...



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2432 posts, RR: 24
Reply 65, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1578 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 63):
You're probably confusing them with Elises.

Nope.

Many of them were parked down close to the harbour.

There are also a few (2-3) close to where my parents live in Denmark.


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7550 posts, RR: 4
Reply 66, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1570 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 64):
I hope they're not electrically powered...

According to a customer of mine who ownes an SLS these doors have a couple of big disadvantages over conventional doors, you get a hell of a lot wetter if it's raining and you can't open them if you roll it.

[Edited 2012-02-13 03:12:38]

User currently offlinedazbo5 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 2920 posts, RR: 2
Reply 67, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1540 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 66):
you can't open them if you roll it.

The SLS has a ballistic release mechanism that blows the hinges off if you roll it and and it ends up on it's roof. I'd rather just have conventional doors though.

Darren



Equipment: 2x Canon EOS 50D; Sigma 10-20 EX DC HSM, 50-500 EX APO DG, Canon 24-105 f/4 L, Speedlite 430EX
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6722 posts, RR: 12
Reply 68, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1522 times:

Quoting cmf (Reply 14):
The most realistic solution I've seen is where they standardized batteries and made them easily switchable. They had it setup so a robot did the job and it would take one or two minutes so essentially like filling up today.

I think this is a beautiful solution but can't see OEMs be able to agree on a standard so think it is doomed.

Better Place : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Better_Place

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 15):
Quoting mham001 (Thread starter):
Recharge time of 4 hours.

That sounds ridiculously optimistic. That can't possibly be from a fully discharged state. No way. Many laptops take longer to charge than that.

It depends on the plug you got. If you have something like tri-phase 440V, it's quicker.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 17):
The day I believe Top Gear's entertainment as a true representation of a car is the day I need to check in to a mental hospital. They have their agenda.

Light is right is not entertainment, it's an universal truth.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 24):
I had the heater on full blast the whole way, which is not a problem in a gas engine but would be a huge drain on a battery if I'd had to use an electric heater.

The engine is probably watercooled, so after a few miles, no need to use the battery to get heat in the cabin.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7550 posts, RR: 4
Reply 69, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1520 times:

He rolled it, I'm just repeating what he told me. He had to get out the front window.

User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2841 posts, RR: 12
Reply 70, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1508 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 50):
The government is actively and blatantly attempting to influence my buying decisions, and I don't appreciate it.

As recently as 10 years ago you could deduct up to $100K for the purchase of a heavy vehicle like a Hummer or Escalade, in 2007 that deduction was still $25K. Would you have taken advantage of it then? Even though they were trying to influence your purchasing decision for a SUV?

The government hasn't told anyone here they can't buy a car because of its energy source or MPG. You could go out tomorrow and buy a Bugatti Veyron that gets 8 mpg in the city. CAFE standards don't restrict ownership.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlineflanker From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1641 posts, RR: 2
Reply 71, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1503 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 63):
According to Musk these door will make production.
Quoting francoflier (Reply 64):
I hope they're not electrically powered...

AHHAHAHHHAAHA ... omg what a shitbox.. Good luck when you roll it. Charging at least 60K for this POS They should have at least put blast charges like on the SLS doors.

Hooray for another shitty ecobox that makes absolutely no sense except as a novelty.

Quoting flanker (Reply 46):
$60,0000 for a 4 hour recharge at 280miles. Throw it in the garbage and start again.
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 66):
According to a customer of mine who ownes an SLS these doors have a couple of big disadvantages over conventional doors, you get a hell of a lot wetter if it's raining and you can't open them if you roll it.

Except they have blast charges if you roll it and you could always buy the convertible to get around that!!!



Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a drug dealer an unlicensed pharmacist
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7550 posts, RR: 4
Reply 72, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1496 times:

Quoting flanker (Reply 71):
Except they have blast charges if you roll it and you could always buy the convertible to get around that!!!

see email below

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 69):
He rolled it, I'm just repeating what he told me. He had to get out the front window.


User currently offlinedazbo5 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 2920 posts, RR: 2
Reply 73, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1498 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 69):
He rolled it, I'm just repeating what he told me. He had to get out the front window.

That's rather worrying then;

"Safety specifications were revealed pertaining to the safety of the SLS AMG's gullwing doors. Ten to fifteen milliseconds after a detected rollover, explosive bolts situated at the top of the door frame fire and bell cranks separate the doors from the car for easy exit during a serious accident."

Is what is supposed to happen!

Darren



Equipment: 2x Canon EOS 50D; Sigma 10-20 EX DC HSM, 50-500 EX APO DG, Canon 24-105 f/4 L, Speedlite 430EX
User currently offlineflanker From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1641 posts, RR: 2
Reply 74, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1491 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 72):
see email below

See dazbo5's post :P

Quoting dazbo5 (Reply 73):
That's rather worrying then;

"Safety specifications were revealed pertaining to the safety of the SLS AMG's gullwing doors. Ten to fifteen milliseconds after a detected rollover, explosive bolts situated at the top of the door frame fire and bell cranks separate the doors from the car for easy exit during a serious accident."

Is what is supposed to happen!



Calling an illegal alien an 'undocumented immigrant' is like calling a drug dealer an unlicensed pharmacist
User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 75, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1436 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 17):
Tesla website says 62 miles worth of charge time per hour.
IF and only IF you have a 20 Kwh outlet available in your home. That's way more than many home HVACs need. So, in real life, my point stands, unless you have a ridiculously overpowered and dedicated outlet, you ain't seeing the promised charge times. 'nough said.

[Edited 2012-02-13 13:00:31]

User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15778 posts, RR: 27
Reply 76, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1421 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 63):
You're probably confusing them with Elises.

Actually the Tesla looks a lot more like an Evora than the Elise it was based on.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 66):
you can't open them if you roll it.

They have explosive bolts to release the doors if the car ends up on its roof.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 70):

As recently as 10 years ago you could deduct up to $100K for the purchase of a heavy vehicle like a Hummer or Escalade, in 2007 that deduction was still $25K

That's stupid too. The only tax credit that would be defensible would be some portion that could be deducted on cars bought for work purposes, but that should not discriminate based on type. Such a deduction should apply equally whether you're buying a Prius or an owner-operator's new semi.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 70):
The government hasn't told anyone here they can't buy a car because of its energy source or MPG.

They've just taken to punishing manufacturers whose cars aren't efficient enough and incentivising hybrids and EVs while levying additional taxes on less efficient vehicle.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 70):
You could go out tomorrow and buy a Bugatti Veyron that gets 8 mpg in the city. CAFE standards don't restrict ownership.

It's an additional punitive cost for the manufacturer, that gets passed on to the customer. Gas guzzler tax is the same, but is more transparent. It's absolutely indefensible that the government will charge me $1000 or more for the privilege of paying them more in gas taxes. As if that wasn't enough, like the CAFE laws, the gas guzzler tax likely contributed more to to waste than fuel savings.

Quoting flanker (Reply 71):
Hooray for another shitty ecobox that makes absolutely no sense except as a novelty.

At that price it is going to be a novelty no matter what sort of doors it has. But I would suggest that making it more like a DeLorean is a bad idea.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3790 posts, RR: 11
Reply 77, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1427 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 68):
The engine is probably watercooled,

Interesting. I am not an avid follower of electric motor technology for cars, but I didn't know they had started using watercooled motors.
Still, due to their efficiency (ironically), I'm unsure whether the heat they generate is enough to heat a passenger cabin during the winter. And you still have to electrically pump that liquid and blow the air around.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 68):
If you have something like tri-phase 440V, it's quicker.

Ah yes, who doesn't have triphased 440V at home? 



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 78, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1402 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 77):
Ah yes, who doesn't have triphased 440V at home?

Homes in America. Most have only one phase split in two legs for 240V or more commonly 120V (called 110V) when one leg is connected to neutral.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6722 posts, RR: 12
Reply 79, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1360 times:

He was being funny, we don't have that at home either (but 220/230V is standard and already much better than 120/115/110). The idea of quick charging is for trips/parking spots/etc., at home you should slow charge. Quick charging has a negative impact on the endurance of the battery, it will last less cycles. That's one of the reasons (the others being that quick charging is not quick enough, and batteries are expensive) why there are concepts of quickly exchangeable batteries with a monthly fee : the batteries are charged optimally, while you can "fill up" in 59 seconds, and not worry about killing you 20K battery.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 80, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 1357 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 79):
He was being funny, we don't have that at home either (but 220/230V is standard and already much better than 120/115/110).

Most homes in Europe have three phases being delivered to them. Using a three phase connector you get a steadier flow of electricity and can charge better without the quick charge disadvantages.


User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2841 posts, RR: 12
Reply 81, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 1326 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 76):

They've just taken to punishing manufacturers whose cars aren't efficient enough and incentivising hybrids and EVs while levying additional taxes on less efficient vehicle.

I don't have a problem with the way CAFE' standards penalize those cars. Someone buying most of the cars that those additional taxes are applied too not only can pay them but likely don't care that they have too.

I suggest you focus your disdain on the incredibly stupid air quality regulations that have kept high mpg diesel vehicles out of the US market.

Quoting cmf (Reply 80):
Most homes in Europe have three phases being delivered to them. Using a three phase connector you get a steadier flow of electricity and can charge better without the quick charge disadvantages.

The installation of a home charging station in US homes is fairly straightforward with existing wiring. But most require a electrical inspection.

At least in the Vancouver, BC to Portland, OR corridor there are a number of public electric vehicle charging stations along I-5. The plan is to have them installed from Vancouver to the Mexico border. If the article is to be believed "Drivers will be able to fully charge electric vehicles in less than 30 minutes with level-3 DC fast-chargers, or in several hours with level-2 medium-speed chargers, officials said.

There's also a lot of chargers in the Seattle area. I've said before, I'm not going to run out and buy an electric car but the argument that it's impractical if it gets even half the mileage per charge ignores how people really drive.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15778 posts, RR: 27
Reply 82, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1299 times:

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 81):
Someone buying most of the cars that those additional taxes are applied too not only can pay them but likely don't care that they have too.

So now it's a "they can afford it, so we'll take their money" tax? Isn't that missing the point completely? Why not just levy a luxury tax on cars over a certain price or if it's deemed "unnecessary" for a certain person? We could call it the "you're too rich" tax.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 81):
I suggest you focus your disdain on the incredibly stupid air quality regulations that have kept high mpg diesel vehicles out of the US market.

Don't worry. I have more than enough disdain to go around.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2841 posts, RR: 12
Reply 83, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1292 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 82):
So now it's a "they can afford it, so we'll take their money" tax? Isn't that missing the point completely? Why not just levy a luxury tax on cars over a certain price or if it's deemed "unnecessary" for a certain person? We could call it the "you're too rich" tax.

I get that you don't like the perception that the government is influencing your purchases. But, in this case cars are basically small, portable power plants that have emissions which effect everyone . Just like second hand smoke does. I don't have a problem with realistic regulation of emissions through CAFE standards. Emphasis on realistic.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 82):
Don't worry. I have more than enough disdain to go around.

I'm also for less regulation overall, and in my industry I disdain a lot of what I see from government regulations. If you look at what I've said so far in this thread it's not that I don't think a car like a Veyron shouldn't be available to buy or that I think that this electric car is the holy grail. The power has to come from somewhere, likely a coal plant since everyone hates nuclear power. I'm only debating that it is a realistic alternative to gas powered vehicles for daily use.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15778 posts, RR: 27
Reply 84, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1275 times:

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 83):
I don't have a problem with realistic regulation of emissions through CAFE standards.

CAFE is not emissions standards, it's fuel economy standards.

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 83):
I don't think a car like a Veyron shouldn't be available to buy

Not only should they be available to buy, people should not be punished for buying one. In other words, the government should not fine me $7700 to buy one.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3681 posts, RR: 3
Reply 85, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 1275 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 49):
Tahoe is about 200 Miles from downtown SF, which means you'd have to leave it there for a charge for a few hours before attempting to go back.

Well, yea. That is the whole point of going to Tahoe. Skiing, gambling..

Quoting francoflier (Reply 49):
Otherwise, the range limitation, lack of available charging facilities and the length of said charge make it a very uncompetitive product compared to the gas powered competition.

That depends. Charging points are popping up all over here.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 52):
Oh but it is. The same people telling us that alternative energy is ready for the mainstream now and the government needs to push it are the same people whining about how greedy companies are.

Oh crap. True conservatives are onboard because a true conservative realizes the benefits of losing the foreign oil addiction. True conservatives believe in self sufficiency. Even George Bush was onboard. Faux conservatives who call themselves Republicans and march top the beat of Rush Limbaugh - not so much..

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 61):
I've never seen a Tesla in any Scandinavian country, it doesn't mean there isn't the odd one or two here but I don't see it as a main market, I also wouldn't base that on a video review from a financial newspaper on youtube either.

Would the fact that Copenhagen is home to one of only 5 European dealers convince you that they believe it?

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 63):
where do you put your skis, with the fancy opening doors there's now way you can put racks or a roof box on top to crry them.

That's an excellent point. I think those doors are stupid, a solution to a problem that doesn't exist. Not at all practical.


User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3681 posts, RR: 3
Reply 86, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 1228 times:

Tesla has announced a few sales numbers.....


From the time the electric crossover was driven out on stage at Tesla Design Studios late Thursday night/early Friday morning until Valentine's Day four days later, the company says it has received over $40 million worth of reservation love.

What that means is that over 500 people have plunked down a significant amount of cash – $5,000 for regular production version or $40,000 for a Signature package.....
While some of the orders did come from people switching their Model S reservation to the X, Tesla says sedan sales weren't cannibalized. In fact, the company says, sales of the S saw a boost of 30 percent following the big event.
http://www.autoblog.com/2012/02/15/t...l-s-sales-40-million/#aol-comments


User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2841 posts, RR: 12
Reply 87, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 1227 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 84):

CAFE is not emissions standards, it's fuel economy standards.

Although technically I misspoke, CAFE standards are in fact regulation of emissions. The CAFE testing done by the EPA to measure fuel economy is done using the same lab test used to measure exhaust emissions.

I wrote this piece of NEPA yesterday for a transportation project:

The EPA has issued a number of regulations that will significantly decrease Mobile Source Air Toxins and CO2 emissions by requiring the use of cleaner fuels and cleaner engines. In its regulations, EPA examined the impacts of existing and newly promulgated mobile source control programs, including the reformulated gasoline program, national low emission vehicle standards, Tier 2 motor vehicle emissions standards, gasoline sulfur control requirements, proposed heavy-duty engine and vehicle standards, and on-highway diesel fuel sulfur control requirements.

So yes, directly CAFE is not an emission standard, but it has the effect of reducing emissions from mobile sources.

All of this ignores the fact that the power for these vehicles has to come from somewhere. If we really want to use a fuel source other than oil or coal, wind power is not going to replace it. We need to embrace nuclear power.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 86):
Tesla has announced a few sales numbers.....

Remember that the Leaf is considered a failure and it sold 10,000 units in 2011. Not everyone is going to go out and buy a luxury electric CUV that costs $90K. Until they are sold for $20-$30K they won't be more common outside of a niche market.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3681 posts, RR: 3
Reply 88, posted (2 years 8 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1150 times:

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 87):
Remember that the Leaf is considered a failure and it sold 10,000 units in 2011.

The only people who consider(ed) the Leaf a failure were those hoping for failure.


In today's news.....

Tesla reported fourth quarter and full year earnings on Wednesday and in its shareholder’s letter revealed that it has started a development program with Daimler to build a new electric Mercedes-Benz vehicle with a Tesla powertrain.

So, an electric Mercedes is on the way!


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10763 posts, RR: 9
Reply 89, posted (2 years 8 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1145 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 20):
So people who buy Cayennes (hopefully me in the next couple of years) don't go on long drives or tow. Our next family vehicle (according to my wife) will be one of the following an X5/Cayenne/Q7/M Class/Touareg/Discovery or RR Sport

Get the Touareg, its the best in the group. The RR Sport is also nice, but much smaller inside, so I dont know if its right for you. On the other hand, there is no other car that shouts "look, I´ve money, but no taste" so loud like the Cayenne.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6722 posts, RR: 12
Reply 90, posted (2 years 8 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1111 times:

I've never ever seen a Cayenne pulling anything, by the way.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineswissy From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 1734 posts, RR: 4
Reply 91, posted (2 years 8 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1093 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 90):

I've never ever seen a Cayenne pulling anything, by the way.

you mean like 95% of all the others...  

cheerios,


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