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Toyota GT-86 / Subaru BRZ  
User currently offlinevertigo From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 27 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3274 times:



Great video review from EVO Magazine's Chris Harris:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=romf-G6CZ7g


$25K / Rear Wheel Drive / Under 2700 LBS / Limited Slip Differential
Really excited about this "Toyobaru." First new car in a long time that I both want and can afford.

Here's a couple links with more info:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/201...n-the-ft86-and-its-chief-engineer/
http://www.autoblog.com/2011/12/05/2013-subaru-brz-first-drive-review/

67 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15692 posts, RR: 26
Reply 1, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3251 times:

Quoting vertigo (Thread starter):

This is what Scion should have been about from the beginning. Just shows that Toyota can do something cool when they try. Now please bring back the Supra, just bring it in at 3400 lbs or so like the old one and it should blow the American muscle cars away.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3251 times:

Only asian car I've been somewhat interested in pretty much forever. However, I hope in the future Subie comes out with an STI version, with the STI's engine and AWD system. That could potentially be a pretty epic car.

User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8780 posts, RR: 24
Reply 3, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3240 times:

Quoting vertigo (Thread starter):
Really excited about this "Toyobaru."

You could call it any of the following.

Soyota
Suyota
Subota
Subata
Subara
Tubaru
Tobaru
Toyaru
Toyoru
Toyotu



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15692 posts, RR: 26
Reply 4, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3233 times:

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 2):
However, I hope in the future Subie comes out with an STI version, with the STI's engine

I certainly hope for more powerful versions, but I'm not sure they could squeeze the 2.5L engine from the STi into the BRZ. Whatever Subaru does, it's only a matter of time before TRD has a nice line of go-fast parts for the FR-S.

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 2):
AWD system

I don't want AWD. The extra weight probably wouldn't be worth it, and seeing as how they tried to ensure that the CG is as low as possible, may run into packaging issues as well. I'd just as soon leave it as RWD. Maybe KERS would be a nice solution.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1330 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3221 times:

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 2):


Only asian car I've been somewhat interested in pretty much forever. However, I hope in the future Subie comes out with an STI version, with the STI's engine and AWD system. That could potentially be a pretty epic car.

In Car and Driver's review they mentioned something about AWD being unworkable due to engine positioning. Still, more power is probably on the way.


User currently offlinevertigo From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 27 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3206 times:

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 2):
However, I hope in the future Subie comes out with an STI version, with the STI's engine and AWD system.

Unfortunately the EJ257 won't fit in this car. The FA20 sits significantly lower and is closer to the firewall than the STI engine. You'd have to get really creative with the placement of the engine mounts, turbo, inter-cooler, and intake/exhaust manifolds to make it work.
Both Subaru and Toyota have hinted at a power bump for the mid-cycle refresh, but neither have confirmed rumors about a turbo or supercharger.


User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3167 times:

Quoting vertigo (Reply 6):
Unfortunately the EJ257 won't fit in this car. The FA20 sits significantly lower and is closer to the firewall than the STI engine. You'd have to get really creative with the placement of the engine mounts, turbo, inter-cooler, and intake/exhaust manifolds to make it work.

Interesting. Having done exhaust upgrades and what not on a EJ257 myself I would've thought there'd be plenty of room.


User currently offlinevertigo From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 27 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3146 times:

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 7):
Interesting. Having done exhaust upgrades and what not on a EJ257 myself I would've thought there'd be plenty of room.

Note the distance between intake manifold on cylinders 3 + 4 and the firewall. No room for uppipe much less the turbo. The exhaust manifold, uppipe, turbo location, and downpipe would all have to be custom. Not saying the EJ257 swap can't / won't be done, but it'll be difficult and expensive.







[Edited 2012-02-13 16:52:00]

[Edited 2012-02-13 17:01:26]

User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3138 times:

Quoting vertigo (Reply 8):
No room for uppipe much less turbo. Exhaust manifold, uppipe, turbo location, and downpipe would all have to be custom. Not saying the EJ257 swap can't / won't be done, but it'll be difficult and expensive.

Ah yes. Now that you put them side to side it's pretty obvious.

I guess one way to do it would be to relocate the battery to the trunk, would still be a very tight fit of course. The one thing that surprised me about the Subies is how easy they were to work on. I hope that will carry on to this new car.


User currently offlinevertigo From United States of America, joined Jan 2001, 27 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3131 times:

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 9):
The one thing that surprised me about the Subies is how easy they were to work on. I hope that will carry on to this new car.

You're right, that's one thing I absolutely love about Subarus. Though on the BRZ / 86 it's great to see how much effort went into making the car as small and light as possible. It's not much bigger than a Mazda MX-5!


User currently offlinestasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3280 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3116 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 4):
I don't want AWD. The extra weight probably wouldn't be worth it, and seeing as how they tried to ensure that the CG is as low as possible, may run into packaging issues as well. I'd just as soon leave it as RWD

  

The whole purpose of this car was to be as lightweight as possible and to handle as close to OR better than the Porsche Cayman. Porsche was and is the target for the FR-S and the BRZ - at a HUGELY discounted price tag. Similiar to what Toyota has accomplished with the success of the Lexus LS series - S class/7 series size and comfort, more reliable, and more quiet - the original LS Lexus looked exactly like a S-class sedan when it was launched back in 1990, and was half the price.

At least the FR-S and the BRZ looks completely different from a Cayman. And Subie will offer a turbocharged version of the motor in the BRZ - Subaru management has stated to numerous auto press outlets that ALL of their future turbocharged motors will be based on the BRZ's engine. It may take a middle-life update of the BRZ in two or three model years for STI to shoehorn in the plumbing for the turbocharger, but I am sure the Southern California "tuners" are already working on a aftermarket turbo "solution" at this moment!



"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15692 posts, RR: 26
Reply 12, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3109 times:

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 11):
The whole purpose of this car was to be as lightweight as possible and to handle as close to OR better than the Porsche Cayman.

I doubt they'll beat the Cayman. That is the car that wouldn't be offered with a limited slip differential because doing so would make it faster than the 911.

For what it's worth, the first really bad weather day of the winter has utterly reaffirmed my belief that RWD is superior to FWD in the snow. You can accelerate/brake or you can steer at a given time, but not both. The car was plowing everywhere and driving was a point and shoot procedure. My Avalon could only negotiate a cul-de-sac at barely more than a walking pace.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 11):
It may take a middle-life update of the BRZ in two or three model years for STI to shoehorn in the plumbing for the turbocharger, but I am sure the Southern California "tuners" are already working on a aftermarket turbo "solution" at this moment!

Just wait for SEMA. I bet we'll see at least a half dozen FR-S/BRZs.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineKaphias From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 296 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3101 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):
For what it's worth, the first really bad weather day of the winter has utterly reaffirmed my belief that RWD is superior to FWD in the snow.

...except on hills.
I'd love to have an AWD version of the Subie, but since that won't happen if I ever move somewhere where I know I could deal with RWD I'd certainly consider getting one. Great all around car.



Flown on: C150, C172, C206, Beaver, Otter, Jetstream 32, Q400, CRJ7/9, E135/40/45, A320, B732/4/7/8/9, B744, B752, B763
User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 60
Reply 14, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 3088 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):
For what it's worth, the first really bad weather day of the winter has utterly reaffirmed my belief that RWD is superior to FWD in the snow. You can accelerate/brake or you can steer at a given time, but not both. The car was plowing everywhere and driving was a point and shoot procedure. My Avalon could only negotiate a cul-de-sac at barely more than a walking pace.

Sounds more like you need a good set of winter tires. That will do more for you than any drive configuration.



Intentionally Left Blank
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15692 posts, RR: 26
Reply 15, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3074 times:

Quoting Kaphias (Reply 13):
...except on hills.

I've never had a problem, and my mom's caprice is about the least tail heavy a car could be. Besides, having that weight hung over the front wheels absolutely blows for the other 360 days each year.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 14):
Sounds more like you need a good set of winter tires. That will do more for you than any drive configuration.

Regardless of tires, rear wheel drive is still superior. The only compelling reasons for front wheel drive are cost and packaging.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3067 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 12):

For what it's worth, the first really bad weather day of the winter has utterly reaffirmed my belief that RWD is superior to FWD in the snow.

Not a chance in hell. Last nasty winter storm I was in over 70% of all stuck cars were RWD.

Of course nothing beats AWD. I got to play around in a WRX with winter tires when DCs big snowstorm last year came around. It was unstoppable. We were the only car moving in a controlled fashion at all that night. That's an epic combination of tires and drive train.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 14):
Sounds more like you need a good set of winter tires. That will do more for you than any drive configuration.

  

[Edited 2012-02-13 20:40:19]

User currently online747400sp From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3413 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 3047 times:

It would be nice to see a four built on this platform. An affordable RWD Toyota sport sedan under the Scion name, would be great.

User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15692 posts, RR: 26
Reply 18, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 3045 times:

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 16):
Not a chance in hell. Last nasty winter storm I was in over 70% of all stuck cars were RWD.

In my experience cars that end up in the ditch have skewed towards the econobox and family sedan part of the spectrum. The simple fact is that when a FWD car loses traction, you're just along for the ride.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7036 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2993 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 15):
Regardless of tires, rear wheel drive is still superior.

In what respect is RWD superior? I've owned both, in snow it's worse, that's been proven by experts far smarter than you and I, in motorsport nope, where front and rear wheel drive's have run in the same classes front wheel drives have won championships, the Citroen Xsara kit car was able to win tarmac rallies in the WRC, Seat handed BMW a hiding with the front wheel drive Leon in the WTCC.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 18):
The simple fact is that when a FWD car loses traction, you're just along for the ride

Depends on the driver, the road surface and the tyres, but it doesn't matter if its, front, rear or all wheel drive if you're going fast enough and lose traction your in the poo.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 18):
In my experience cars that end up in the ditch have skewed towards the econobox and family sedan part of the spectrum.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that one out, there are simply far more front wheel drive vehicles on the road than premium/sports rear wheel drives.

All this talk about front v rear wheel drive and the traction advantages of rear coming from a bloke who can't even drive a manual.


User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 60
Reply 20, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 2950 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 15):
Regardless of tires, rear wheel drive is still superior.

Superior for whom? Everyone? Or just you?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 18):
The simple fact is that when a FWD car loses traction, you're just along for the ride.

I actually find that to be the case with RWD more often than with FWD. And increasingly so now that virtually all new cars come equipped with stability control.

Out of curiosity, how many snowy winters have you driven in? And where were they?



Intentionally Left Blank
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8780 posts, RR: 24
Reply 21, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2944 times:

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 20):
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 18):
The simple fact is that when a FWD car loses traction, you're just along for the ride.

I actually find that to be the case with RWD more often than with FWD. And increasingly so now that virtually all new cars come equipped with stability control.

Probably because you don't know how to drive very well. (Don't mean to be insulting, but there it is). With FWD, the front wheels do everything, power and steering. In a RWD car steering can be done both front and rear (front with the wheel, rear with judicious use of power to induce either oversteer or understeer as needed.

Quoting 2H4 (Reply 20):

Out of curiosity, how many snowy winters have you driven in? And where were they?

20 years living and driving in Switzerland.

The key of course is weight distribution. Sure, in the old days of 70/30 front weight bias on a RWD platform will be pretty awful in the snow. But modern designs like the BMW 3-series have had close to 50/50 distribution for almost 20 years now. And a limited slip differntial helps too (on FWD as well).

I remember driving my late-model 3-series (I had several) up and down snowed in mountain passes on normal tires, and seeing front wheel drive cars unable to continue (especially in turns) while I kept going.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offline2H4 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 8955 posts, RR: 60
Reply 22, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 2936 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
DATABASE EDITOR

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 21):
Probably because you don't know how to drive very well. (Don't mean to be insulting, but there it is). With FWD, the front wheels do everything, power and steering. In a RWD car steering can be done both front and rear (front with the wheel, rear with judicious use of power to induce either oversteer or understeer as needed.

I'm quite familiar with the concept, and frankly, I don't appreciate the implication that I lack driving ability.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 21):
20 years living and driving in Switzerland.

For what it's worth - 20 years living and driving in Wisconsin and Michigan (in the lake-effect belt). Vehicles in those climates have included a number of years with a 1966 Ford pickup with bald, bias-ply tires, and a Mazda RX-7.

My questions in the first part of reply #20 stand.

[Edited 2012-02-14 08:40:34]


Intentionally Left Blank
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7036 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2915 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 21):
But modern designs like the BMW 3-series have had close to 50/50 distribution for almost 20 years now. And a limited slip differntial helps too (on FWD as well).

I remember driving my late-model 3-series (I had several) up and down snowed in mountain passes on normal tires, and seeing front wheel drive cars unable to continue (especially in turns) while I kept going.

Now you're having a laugh, my wife had a 2008 E91 3 Series Touring, with spiked winter tyres we often couldn't get from the street we live in up onto the main road, we had the same problem with the 2007 W203 C Class Touring we had before it, this was never a problem with the 2010 V70 or the VW Touran or my two MINI's, none of the FWD's we've owned have had spiked tyres either.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8780 posts, RR: 24
Reply 24, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 2904 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 23):
Now you're having a laugh, my wife had a 2008 E91 3 Series Touring, with spiked winter tyres we often couldn't get from the street we live in up onto the main road,

Can't explain that, apart from the fact that my '95 325, my '97 328 and my '01 325 had no such problems, and I never used spiked tires (illegal in Switzerland), just good winter tires.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
25 Post contains images BMI727 : Overall performance, weight distribution, handling qualities. The only real advantages for FWD are that it can be lighter, packed into a smaller spac
26 KiwiRob : There are front wheel drive cars that will run rings around anything close to there price tag which is rear wheel drive, the problem is you live in t
27 Dreadnought : Name a single racing series where RWD cars are allowed and where FWD cars are competitive (in the same class, for multiclass races). Even in ice-raci
28 KiwiRob : Current World Touring Car Championship British Touring Car Championships (RWD is allowed although BMW pulled out) Any touring car championship runnin
29 Dreadnought : Are we talking about the same class, power limitations etc? A 250 hp RWD car vs a 250 hp FWD car?
30 KiwiRob : FIA S2000 specifications include the following: Derived from production model, of which at least 2500 have been produced in the past year Maximum of 2
31 BMI727 : Although it is slower than a Nissan 370Z or Corvette Grand Sport that could be had for the same or less money. Even a Shelby Mustang could give it a
32 KiwiRob : 0-62 ain't everything, if you learn't how to drive a manual you'd realise that. Put it on a typical European back road and the RS500 will walk away f
33 BMI727 : I bet either would beat the Focus around a track too. The Focus might compare favorably on a tight autocross circuit, but anything wide open and it w
34 KiwiRob : All I can say is go out and learn to drive a manual before you spout off.
35 poLOT : Just out of curiosity BMI727, what car do you drive?
36 KiwiRob : I think he drives his mum's old Caprice, he's only a teenager.
37 Post contains links and images Fly2HMO : Lies. Just like a proficient driver can use oversteer to his advantage, same can be done with understeer. Oh really? I've done it myself. A lot. And
38 greasespot : I do not care about what safer or drives better. A sports car should be RWD. They are meant to be driven for fun. If you get stuck in the snow to bad.
39 747400sp : Look everybody! Motorcycle are RWD, speed boats are propelled from the rear and even jet skis are propelled from the rear, so to me, a true sport car
40 KiwiRob : RWD isn't bad, it's just crap in the snow, plus it annoys me when people don't have a clue about what they are spouting off about. Not all luxury car
41 Post contains images MrChips : Discounting the fact that AWD is just plain wrong in a lightweight car designed solely to be engaging for the driver, there simply isn't space in the
42 BMI727 : 2000 Toyota Avalon. The most average car ever made. Actually I'm not. How twisty is twisty? Depending on the track I think it would be a dead heat, t
43 LOT767-300ER : Dont you drive a golf cart and something the Europeans have no clue how to make: a van?
44 B777LRF : For 99% of all drivers FWD is safer in slippery conditions 99% of times. Particularly when the car is fitted with a manual gearbox, allowing one to us
45 BMI727 : And three times the price.
46 Post contains links KiwiRob : Not true BMW went out and built 2600 320si's, these came with a special engine designed specifically for racing, they did a pretty good job exploitin
47 Aesma : While true, it doesn't mean FWD made the difference. Maybe the RWD competition had less power/torque or was heavier, or the drivers were not up to pa
48 MrChips : When diesel power was first allowed in WTCC, it was granted a considerable advantage by the rules, much the same way the rules for LMP1/P1 cars favou
49 KiwiRob : There haven't been any RWD cars competing in the WRC since the Lancia 037, although Lotus will campaign the Exige R-GT in some of the tarmac rounds o
50 Fly2HMO : Audi/Porsche would beg to differ. AWD is the best drive train in pretty much any situation. The only real downside is that AWD cars tend to have so m
51 KiwiRob : Seat won the title in 2008, BMW won in 2007. BMW could have raced with the 320D, but the didn't, a fairly big mistake on there part, it's now a moot
52 B777LRF : Which is only a problem if you can't afford it, or can't find a way to afford it.
53 BMI727 : The GT-86/BRZ is nice if you can afford $20-25k. Once you can afford a car over $30k or so it's time to start looking at used M3s, 911s, Elise/Exige,
54 KiwiRob : The cars you mentioned are a whole different ballgame maintenance wise, I know a guy who bought a Ferrari 348, it was cheap, within two years he'd ne
55 BMI727 : They can be if you get a bad one. But if you do your homework and learn to do some maintenance yourself, they can be quite reasonable. Lotus got it r
56 KiwiRob : No you are wrong here, the cars you mentioned are exotics, cars like the NSX, 911, Lotus etc all sell much better if they have full service histories,
57 BMI727 : No you can't, but the equipment is not exactly unreliable. They've already depreciated a ton. You wouldn't buy a 911 for $35k as an investment anyway
58 KiwiRob : Ever heard of the classic car market, buy one for 35k put it away for a few years and you'll probably make money on it, the 964 series 911 is a model
59 BMI727 : You'd be unlikely to find a 993 or 964 for under $40k. Maybe the odd 964 or two, but in the $30-40k range you're likely looking at 996s and the oldes
60 MrChips : No, it isn't. In addition to weight, there's losses in terms of cost, fuel efficiency, complexity, ride quality and steering feel. I've driven both 2
61 Fly2HMO : Now you're just splitting hairs. From a strictly performance/grip perspective, AWD trumps almost all. And I can bring up a similarly long list of dra
62 MrChips : No argument there, but you don't need to have piles of grip to have a fun, rewarding driving experience. Just have a look at Chris Harris' recent vid
63 KiwiRob : I watched that, sure looked like a hell of a lot of fun, made me think of a Trophee Andros ice racer.
64 mham001 : Fwd and rwd simply have different technique to master. Which is 'better' is mindless. Just learn to drive what you have. Few will ever reach the limit
65 Fly2HMO : True. One of the most fun cars I've ever driven was my VW Type1. Slow as hell, but loads of fun. Heck, if I really pushed it, I even gave some guys i
66 mham001 : I think great fun can be had in the less advanced cars, they are easier to push limits without having to worry about jail time. I used to hotrod Type
67 N1120A : Much prefer RWD overall, except in the case of my current car, which is a FWD car that thinks its RWD.
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