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German President Wulff To Resign  
User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7063 posts, RR: 4
Posted (2 years 7 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1738 times:

German President will give TV statement on 11 am

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/02/17/wo...rmany-president-scandal/index.html


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
36 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineracko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4857 posts, RR: 20
Reply 1, posted (2 years 7 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1723 times:

Finally. It's about time.

User currently offlineTransIsland From Bahamas, joined Mar 2004, 2046 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (2 years 7 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1685 times:

Now, the question is, will Merkel's CDU nominate a genuinely presidential candidate this time, or will she park another potential up and coming, ambitious and power hungry competitor at Bellevue to avoid a challenge to her leadership of the party?


I'm an aviation expert. I have Sky Juice for breakfast.
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10735 posts, RR: 9
Reply 3, posted (2 years 7 months 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1672 times:

He hasnt committed a crime, and if there would have been any corruption I´d still be surprised. Too many dogs are a hare´s death. And much is just blown-up press hysteria.
But in the end iis own fault not to step back from "little" favours of rich "friends". And all this mainly because of this ugly boring house in a provincial village. Very poor.

Now I hope the hunt for Mr. Dieckmann starts, I bet journalists could find a lot of dirt in his backyard.
[quote=TransIsland,reply=2]Now, the question is, will Merkel's CDU nominate a genuinely presidential candidate this time, or will she park another potential up and coming, ambitious and power hungry competitor at Bellevue to avoid a challenge Are there any? Merkel reminds me a bit of the reckless Kohl in this respect, she doesnt let a flower in the garden grow higher than herself.


User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7957 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (2 years 7 months 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 1652 times:

Quoting CNN:
It took three rounds of voting in the Reichstag, or German parliament, before he won enough backing from lawmakers to assume the role.

Reichstag?!   
Whoah Nelly, it is Bundestag or perhaps Reichstag Building. Even that would not be correct, because the parliament does not elect the President. The Bundesversammlung does


Oh, and I am happy he's gone. After all it wasn't "just" the scandal itself but rather the way he handled the situation.
I am just not happy that we now have another early retiree who gets € 200.000 per year.

[Edited 2012-02-17 04:30:00]


I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9376 posts, RR: 29
Reply 5, posted (2 years 7 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1621 times:

Quoting TransIsland (Reply 2):
potential up and coming, ambitious and power hungry competitor at Bellevue to avoid a challenge to her leadership of the party?

There aren't any left, so don't worry. Mutti is the unchallenged number 1 , even cher Nicolas acknowledges that and his successor will very quickly get the message or he will sing in the Lady's choir, mon dieu.

Quoting na (Reply 3):
He hasnt committed a crime, and if there would have been any corruption I´d still be surprised. Too many dogs are a hare´s death. And much is just blown-up press hysteria.

Exactly. An unprecedented media campaign, there have been similar campaigns before but they never kicked a president out of the office. For all of those who applaud, his fatal sentence in one speech was, the the Islam belongs to Germany. How wrong he was.

Now the DA can start his investigation in which he has to prove that Wulff did not reimburse that media entrepreneur in cash. Even if he hadn't this simply cannot be proved. Hence, the whole matter will never go to court as there is nothing punishable.

After all, how stupid must a DA be to believe that for a lousy € 200,00 worth of hotel accomodation a (the he was) prime minister of a Bundesland can be bribed to approve a state surety for a 5 million bank loan



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinecolumba From Germany, joined Dec 2004, 7063 posts, RR: 4
Reply 6, posted (2 years 7 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 1600 times:

Now , I wonder who will be next target of Germany´s media they already had Westerwelle, Gutenberg and Wulff on the list. Okay Gutenberg and Wulff had dirt on their hands (the one more than the other) but the way the media was after them left a bad taste in my mouth........


It will forever be a McDonnell Douglas MD 80 , Boeing MD 80 sounds so wrong
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21462 posts, RR: 53
Reply 7, posted (2 years 7 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1589 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 5):
For all of those who applaud, his fatal sentence in one speech was, the the Islam belongs to Germany. How wrong he was.

No. He was simply correct. There are german citizens and even people "just" living here for decades and thus still contributing to our country who happen to be muslims, at least nominally and culturally if not always actually religiously.

We've pretended that people who happen to be muslims somehow can't possibly be a part of Germany in any way, and that pretense had to be called off officially.

Germany is not a "muslim country". It isn't even a "christian country" as such any more. But as much as catholics and protestants are part of it, so are muslims.

Formally ackowledging this reality is one of the few positive things Wulff has done in his term.

He also addressed the nazi terrorism more or less the right way.

But that he has left a consistent trace of rather sticky chumminess with "friends" with whom he has seemed to trade favours in his former political life in Lower Saxony is the other side. He has certainly damaged the office and tarnished the reputation of the country by sticking to his office even in the face of strong evidence for questionable conduct. His attempt to threaten and manipulate the press (even if it was just the Bild tabloid) should have been immediate grounds for stepping down.

His few achievements pale in comparison to the sordid mess of his endlessly delayed resignation.

Good riddance – at least now Merkel can't attempt to ram through yet another partisan candidate. That ship has sailed – and hit a cliff.

Twice now, actually.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9376 posts, RR: 29
Reply 8, posted (2 years 7 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1578 times:

Well Guttenberg was never charged nor put on trial. The case was closed against payment of € 20.000,00 which, we can assume, is below that what would go into the registry (the threshold here is 90 days equivalent pay) One can assume that Gutti makes more than € 222,00 per day.

The main purpose was fulfilled anyhow, the man was taken off the political agenmda, at least for the time beeing. Not very democratic BTW, the people should have that right in democratic elections, not self appointed plagiate watchdogs.


with Wulff it will likely be the same and he should not enter into any deals with the DA, he should go to court, if the DA thinks he has enough to make a case, and ffight for a clean release.

BTW, in Germany people are innocent until proven guilty, both names here have not been proven guilty for anything.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (2 years 7 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1569 times:

May I ask a question? OK, I just have  

There was a request that immunity could be lifted so that further enquiries could be made into a number of other allegations. Now that Wulff has resigned, does he automatically lose immunity or does it still have to be officially lifted?


User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 35
Reply 10, posted (2 years 7 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1570 times:

Quoting columba (Reply 6):
they already had Westerwelle, Gutenberg and Wulff on the list. Okay Gutenberg and Wulff had dirt on their hands (the one more than the other) but the way the media was after them left a bad taste in my mouth........

Have to ask why you feel that way, columba?

As far as I'm concerned, the only appropriate status for politicians (especially 'appointed' ones) is that they should always be 'beyond reproach.' It's quite clear that Wulff did not 'qualify' (I don't know about the other two). So it's entirely appropriate that he should be fired - and that Merkel should have to face criticism for having appointed him?

So I don't see why you have a 'bad taste' about the media? Surely they're just doing their job, exposing corruption and bad faith? As far as I'm concerned, a 'free press' remains the best and most relevant safeguard all the Western democracies have?

Plenty of countries in the world where this sordid episode would never have seen the light of day. I'm glad that I don't live in one of them. Hope, on reflection, that you'll agree that you're fortunate that you don't live in one of them either?



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10735 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (2 years 7 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1565 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 7):
No. He was simply correct. There are german citizens and even people "just" living here for decades and thus still contributing to our country who happen to be muslims, at least nominally and culturally if not always actually religiously.

We've pretended that people who happen to be muslims somehow can't possibly be a part of Germany in any way, and that pretense had to be called off officially.

Germany is not a "muslim country". It isn't even a "christian country" as such any more. But as much as catholics and protestants are part of it, so are muslims.

Of cause he was right with this. There are millions of muslims in Germany with German passport, even if most were not born her. Only fools can deny that or want to drive them away. But also only fools would wish that they become even more. Germany is culturally a Christian country and should remain so. Islamic tendencies should never become part in official German belongings. Imho they should ask every Muslim applying for a German passport "in conflict, what comes first for you, the German law, or Allah?" If the latter is the answer, no German passport should be issued.


User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7957 posts, RR: 12
Reply 12, posted (2 years 7 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1553 times:

Ah yes, the popular 'blame-the-media' game.

May I remind some people here that Wulff announced his resignation a day after a request by a prosecutor for Parliament to lift the President's immunity from prosecution? It wasn't a reaction following the public's ongoing pressure (public - not just that of the press!). In other words you say the prosecutor, after months of doing nothing, is now doing the press a favor?

I don't say, the press' role was always commendable, but it is their job to be the watchdog of the powerful, and I want a press that scrutinizes every minute detail.

Besides, Wulff has lied beyond imagination, has thus lost the confidence of a large part of the population - definitely more than 50 percent - and can no longer represent Germany. It has probably been the first time in our history as a republic that, when the President invites 200 people over to Bellevue Palace, only 100 will show up. The others probably prefered to see a dentist or get a vasectomy ...



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21462 posts, RR: 53
Reply 13, posted (2 years 7 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1548 times:

Quoting na (Reply 11):
Germany is culturally a Christian country and should remain so.

It has christian traditions, yes, but also jewish and muslim ones, if to a smaller scale. And all of them are part of what Germany is today, as much as some people have attempted to eradicate traditions and even people who they objected to.

Quoting na (Reply 11):
Islamic tendencies should never become part in official German belongings.

You're confusing islamic with islamistic.

Radical evangelical or catholic christians give me the creeps just about as much as islamists do.

On the other hand, there are many moderate muslims whose attitudes effectively align with most moderate christians and unreligious people and who are willing to make constructive contributions to our community.

It's not the origin or label of people's affiliation, it's their actual attitudes that matter.

I'd have no problem with a christian, jewish or muslim president even though I'm areligious myself. But I have a problem with narrow-minded, authoritarian and hateful people in whatever capacity.

Wulff was relatively open-minded for his political background. That was a decent basis for becoming a good president. Too bad that his character was lacking with regard to his willingness to take material favours wherever he could.

He was thus effectively incapacitated about commenting on the greed, recklessness and complacency of some people as one reason for the financial crisis and the economical consequences we all have to bear. He was just not fit for his office.


User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7957 posts, RR: 12
Reply 14, posted (2 years 7 months 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1547 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 7):
Germany is not a "muslim country". It isn't even a "christian country" as such any more. But as much as catholics and protestants are part of it, so are muslims.

Right! Muslims are part of our society, have long been part of our society, and this is not going to change anytime soon - why would it?

This somewhat controversial statement was Wulff's best moment, if not the sole reason why we had a well-paid President after Köhler resigned.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9376 posts, RR: 29
Reply 15, posted (2 years 7 months 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1520 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 9):
Now that Wulff has resigned, does he automatically lose immunity or does it still have to be officially lifted?

Yes, the moment he said that he resigns from office he has lost all powers and whatever comes with the office. He will still get security, an office, a car, a secretary but immunity from prosecution is lost. The DA can question him immediately over that € 200 question.

Quoting NoUFO (Reply 14):
Right! Muslims are part of our society, have long been part of our society, and this is not going to change anytime soon - why would it?

Yes, but BILD did not like that. This sentence triggered the campaign. Just to explain for those who did not or did not want to understand what I wrote.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 13):
ut I have a problem with narrow-minded, authoritarian and hateful people in whatever capacity.

Pooh, compare that statement with what you wrote in the same reply:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 13):
He was thus effectively incapacitated about commenting on the greed, recklessness and complacency of some people as one reason for the financial crisis and the economical consequences we all have to bear. He was just not fit for his office.

or are capitalists unworthy people that should be shunned ? I mean, not all are like Mr. Mauschelmeier.....



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21462 posts, RR: 53
Reply 16, posted (2 years 7 months 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 1488 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 15):
or are capitalists unworthy people that should be shunned ?

There is a fundamental ethical difference between being hostile against people on the basis of who they are and being critical of people for what they've done in violation of their responsibilities.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9376 posts, RR: 29
Reply 17, posted (2 years 7 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1348 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 16):
There is a fundamental ethical difference between being hostile against people on the basis of who they are and being critical of people for what they've done in violation of their responsibilities.

Interesing, I am not hostile to anyone. I respect immigrants as well as managers. Esepcially, i do not have any prejudice to particular groups. You can talk about individuals and you find a..holes across the board in every group of people, but never generalise as you do.

Taking the example of Mr. Wulff, who stumbled across particular brilliant species of a..holes like Mr. Mauschelmeier and others, I guess we could agree on that. i would never agree woith you on blaming or labeling whole groups.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 35
Reply 18, posted (2 years 7 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1310 times:

In legal terms, I think the 'essentials' of this case are contained in the press article quoted in the opening post:-

"The scandal involves alleged political favors and financial impropriety while he was state premier of Lower Saxony.

"The Hanover prosecutor's office called Thursday for the government to waive the president's immunity from prosecution, in light of the evidence it had gathered.

"Following extensive analyses of new documents and the evaluation of further media reports, the Hanover Public Prosecutor's Office now has sufficient factual evidence and therefore grounds for initial suspicion of receiving bribes or being granted advantages," it said in a statement.

"(The Office) therefore proposes to the president of the German Parliament that immunity for the federal president be waived."


As I said earlier, politicians must always strive to be 'beyond reproach.' That story proves that, in the opinion of the 'regulators,' on the available evidence, Herr Wulff has a case to answer.

So, in my opinion, it is entirely appropriate that Herr Wulff should stand down. There is no way at all that he could remain president when likely to be charged with a criminal offence.

From here on, he is entitled to a fair trial - and, if he is acquitted, to due 'restitution' (up to, but not necessarily, IMO, including, re-appointment as president).

But that's as far as it goes. As some guy said way back in the reign of the first Queen Elizabeth, "The Queen's government must be carried on........" At the first whiff of (even possible) scandal, Herr Wulff had to stand down. It's the same everywhere. If he is eventually acquitted, good luck to him and I hope that, if he is indeed acquitted, he gets yet another cushy job.

But he could not possibly have been allowed to remain as president once this fundamental doubt arose.........

It's just the way politics works.........



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21462 posts, RR: 53
Reply 19, posted (2 years 7 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1305 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 17):
Interesing, I am not hostile to anyone. I respect immigrants as well as managers. Esepcially, i do not have any prejudice to particular groups.

Who said you should?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 17):
i would never agree woith you on blaming or labeling whole groups.

And I've not done that either, except apparently in your imagination.


User currently offlineCerecl From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 729 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1204 times:

Quoting na (Reply 11):
Islamic tendencies should never become part in official German belongings.

Not a Muslim myself, but this is like saying "yes OK you are here, but we don't like to acknowledge it". IMHO it is unjust and a great recipe for social exclusion if a country does not even want to officially acknowledge there are more than one religion practised by its citizens and practitioners of different religions sometimes do things a bit differently.

Quoting na (Reply 11):
Imho they should ask every Muslim applying for a German passport "in conflict, what comes first for you, the German law, or Allah?" If the latter is the answer, no German passport should be issued.

I doubt Allah, as a religious figure, would ever be in conflict with Germany. What if Catholics/Christians choose God/Jesus over German law in a conflict (If such a scenario, just like that with Allah, even makes sense)? Do you support rescinding their citizenship?


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9376 posts, RR: 29
Reply 21, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1179 times:

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 20):
Not a Muslim myself, but this is like saying "yes OK you are here, but we don't like to acknowledge it"

Religion is, in a secular state, a private matter. Meanwhile, Islam studies are offerend at universities, most states meanwhile offer religious classes for Muslim pupils. Muslims enjoy the full religious freedom guaranteed by the constitution and they can only exclude themselves from social live. Our consitution guarantees individual rights to anyone, including the right not to observe any religion. It is really up to anyone how he or she lead their private lifes.

Of course, the constitution also allows women the same rights as men and children are adults when they turn 18 and the family has no right whatsoever to tell them how to lead their lives. Like I said, Germany is a secular state.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7957 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1152 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 21):

True, but completely beside the point. When President Wulff said Islam was part of Germany, he did not mean to say that the authority of the state but rather the social life in this country would, to some extend, rely on Islam.
As Cerecl has said, arguing against this fact is akin to urging a muslim to **** off and leave this country.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9376 posts, RR: 29
Reply 23, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1145 times:

I wrote about the authority of the constitution which is superior to anything. Social life is based on the consitution. Or, you could also use your word "rely", relies on the consitution. I think this is a very important factor and Wulff cannot have meant anything else.

[Edited 2012-02-19 09:18:12]


E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7957 posts, RR: 12
Reply 24, posted (2 years 7 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1121 times:

That's a common misconception. The constitution does not really address individuals but state authorities.

The consitution
- stabilizes and constitutes the then newly founded republic
- limits the power of state authorities
- guarantees the basic rights of people when confronted with such state authorities

The constitution *does not* tell people how to spend their life or how to interact with each other. The constitution does not prohibit coerced prayers, the penal code does (§ 240 StgB) - unless a member of the state authorities forces you to pray.
Same with other common human rights: Should I kill my neighbor I would commit murder, not a human rights violation.

When Mr. Wulff said Islam was part of Germany, he simply acknowledged that many members of our society are muslims. If this had anything to do with the constitution, then in a way that the constitution protects their basic rights too when facing state authorities.



I support the right to arm bears
25 Post contains images NoUFO : And speaking of the office of the president and our constitution: I am very much hoping our politicians, both governmental coalition and opposition, k
26 Klaus : The two coalition parties CDU/CSU and FDP have just agreed to support Joachim Gauck as the new president, who had been proposed by opposition parties
27 NoUFO : There should not have been any talks whatsoever, with or without the Linke, please see Art. 54 (1) GG. In my opinion those talks have just rendered t
28 Post contains links Klaus : I don't see any inconsistency with that article: GG - Artikel 54 What are you referring to? I don't see it that way.
29 NoUFO : Art 54 (1) Der Bundespräsident wird ohne Aussprache von der Bundesversammlung gewählt. Wählbar ist jeder Deutsche, der das Wahlrecht zum Bundestage
30 aloges : It's a pretty decent solution for Mutti. She'll get a president whose ideals aren't too far from her own, Wulff is out of the game completely (he was
31 Klaus : No, that just means that the election session does not have a debate attached to it, not that there couldn't possibly be any discussions otherwise. I
32 aloges : I thought the same - there's no parliamentary debate before the election.
33 Klaus : I'll give her this: Unlike most politicians she is not afraid to clearly and cleanly reverse course when absolutely everybody has already acknowledge
34 Klaus : Not least because half of the members of the Bundesversammlung have not been publically elected (they are civilians nominated and delegated by the pa
35 NoUFO : Ahem, no! I have welcomed the candidacy of Mr. Huntsman although he probably did never really have a chance. The difference here is that few high-ran
36 columba : Well, maybe I am old fashioned but I did not like the way the media was after them like vultures. It is their job to do so but sometimes it appeared
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