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Afghanistan Koran-burning Incident  
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12554 posts, RR: 25
Posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2901 times:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17152705

Protests have been going on for four days, and today 12 were killed.

The President and the commanding general have apologized.

I honestly doubt that the US meant anything evil by disposing of the holy books this way.

Seems the locals do not agree.

Seems we're not wanted there any more and we should leave.

We finally did reach "Mission Accomplished" status a few months ago when OBL took a round to the head.

No need to stick around for the inevitable inglorious withdrawal, let's just get it over with, for the sake of everyone involved.


Inspiration, move me brightly!
91 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineALTF4 From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1212 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2882 times:

They don't state where the books were burned. It sounds like it happened on base... who's the idiot who broadcast the "oops" globally?


The above post is my opinion. Don't like it? Don't read it.
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39884 posts, RR: 74
Reply 2, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2852 times:

Newt Gingrich tells it like it is on this topic;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=epBLAyZrsb0



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinedc9northwest From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 2292 posts, RR: 7
Reply 3, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2851 times:

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
I honestly doubt that the US meant anything evil by disposing of the holy books this way.

They're burning books now? Have they ever heard of Fahrenheit 451, I wonder?

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
Seems we're not wanted there any more and we should leave.

After some people on the US base burn their holiest book? Even by accident?

You think they don't want the US there? Congrats, you're absolutely right!


But yeah, that's not the whole story. How were these books burned?


User currently offlineronglimeng From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 625 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 2821 times:

I'm sorry if this sounds anti-American, but it seems to me that if the armed forces of any nation have the likelihood to step in it, it would be the American forces...and particularly the US Marines.

User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8841 posts, RR: 24
Reply 5, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2782 times:

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 3):

After some people on the US base burn their holiest book? Even by accident?
Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 3):
But yeah, that's not the whole story. How were these books burned?

So what? Theirs is a culture that inspires violent outrage over the destruction of inanimate objects, such as Quran copies, and relative indifference toward the extermination of human beings in the name of God.

Let's get things straight, folks:

1) Prisoners use Qurans to write messages to each other. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-...ed-qurans-held-extremist-messages/

2) A couple of dumb recruits, having been ordered to "dispose of" the desecrated Qurans (desecrated by Muslims, I might add) stupidly light a fire and throw the books on the fire in full view of Afghans.

3) Afghans go apeshit and start killing people. Including an Afghan soldier you kills US troops.

4) Obama and US Commander apologize

What's wrong with the picture? WE had to apologize??? Will it be that Afghans are perfectly entitled to value a copy of the Koran over the lives of two allied soldiers because that’s their culture, QED?

Has Karzai apologized yet, incidentally? I checked his website, where the announcement of Obama’s apology is prominently displayed, but found only a statement of regret about the civilians killed in the rampage plus some news about the delegations he’s putting together to get to the bottom of an accidental book-burning. Quote from the last link: “NATO officials promised to meet Afghan nation’s demand of bringing to justice, through an open trial, those responsible for the incident and it was agreed that the perpetrators of the crime be brought to justice as soon as possible.”

http://president.gov.af/en/news/7209

It's their people and their culture that kills people at the drop of a hat - not to mention THEIR soldier who kills our troops, and WE are the ones who have to apologize? When are we going to wake up and realize that they are NOT worthy of our respect?



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3474 posts, RR: 17
Reply 6, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2779 times:
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Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
Newt Gingrich tells it like it is on this topic;

Sorry but what he says is nonsense The Koran is not a radical Islamists material to start and the two American soldiers who were killed died in action not related to the burning incident, so Newt is mixing things in a way to serve his campaign only.
BTW few here ask Muslims when they move to the west to adapt to the way the west lives, should that not also applies to American forces in Islamic country, the burning of the Koran is an insult to all Muslims.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12554 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2771 times:

Quoting ronglimeng (Reply 4):
I'm sorry if this sounds anti-American, but it seems to me that if the armed forces of any nation have the likelihood to step in it, it would be the American forces...and particularly the US Marines.

They are trained to be soldiers, not diplomats.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 6):
the burning of the Koran is an insult to all Muslims

Yes, but it was a MISTAKE, and apologies have been issued from the President on down.

Isn't forgiveness in that holy book somewhere?



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinedc9northwest From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 2292 posts, RR: 7
Reply 8, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2771 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
So what? Theirs is a culture that inspires violent outrage over the destruction of inanimate objects, such as Quran copies, and relative indifference toward the extermination of human beings in the name of God.

As opposed to American troops, who kill people, but not in the name of God. That makes it alright, I guess.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 6):
Sorry but what he says is nonsense

Of course it is. He's a politician. They only say nonsense.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 6):
BTW few here ask Muslims when they move to the west to adapt to the way the west lives, should that not also applies to American forces in Islamic country, the burning of the Koran is an insult to all Muslims.

Yes, but the US doesn't have a good track record in respecting other cultures, so I can't say I'm surprised.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
1) Prisoners use Qurans to write messages to each other.

Some "terrorists" use the internet. Should we shut it down?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
Obama and US Commander apologize

Politics ergo bullshit. They don't mean it.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
It's their people and their culture that kills people at the drop of a hat - not to mention THEIR soldier who kills our troops, and WE are the ones who have to apologize? When are we going to wake up and realize that they are NOT worthy of our respect?

And in their opinion, the US isn't worthy of respect. Fair enough?

Have you ever watched a hollywood movie? Tell me, after seeing what people here want to do for fun during the weekend... that is, see as many decapitations and exsanguinations and explosions as possible, that the US culture is not inherently prone to violence.

Now, that doesn't make the Afghani right. But it sure as hell doesn't make the US right either.


User currently offlineGiancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2766 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 7):
They are trained to be soldiers, not diplomats.

Doesnt excuse having no common sense, Just makes life more difficult for themselves and their colleagues. Having said that these cretins will grasp at any reason they can to lynch some westerners.. Should just leave them to kill each other.


User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3474 posts, RR: 17
Reply 10, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2756 times:
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Quoting Revelation (Reply 7):
Yes, but it was a MISTAKE, and apologies have been issued from the President on down.

Isn't forgiveness in that holy book somewhere?

I was speaking about the action itself, the soldiers should have known that.
President Obama (and others) sincere apologies was a perfect action from a great president.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8841 posts, RR: 24
Reply 11, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2755 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 6):
BTW few here ask Muslims when they move to the west to adapt to the way the west lives, should that not also applies to American forces in Islamic country, the burning of the Koran is an insult to all Muslims.

I call BS on that. If you came over here and burned a Bible in a heavily baptist neighborhood, you might get some ugly looks and even get yelled at. But you won't get killed and the locals won't start looting and pillaging.

It's called civilization.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3474 posts, RR: 17
Reply 12, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2743 times:
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Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 11):
It's called civilization.

Sorry i will call you on that, you know where you are going, nobody even dream that part of the world is civilized, thanks to the cold war, the Russian invasion etc...
Still you go there you know the rules, you act accordingly.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12554 posts, RR: 25
Reply 13, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2720 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 10):
I was speaking about the action itself, the soldiers should have known that.

They and their commanders are saying they did not know better, and have apologized for their action.

Why do we have day after day of protest after the apologies have been made?

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 12):
Sorry i will call you on that, you know where you are going, nobody even dream that part of the world is civilized, thanks to the cold war, the Russian invasion etc...
Still you go there you know the rules, you act accordingly.

You say we didn't think that place was civilized then you say we knew the rules?

You can't have it both ways, so which do you believe?



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineGiancavia From Vatican City, joined Feb 2010, 1363 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2710 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 13):
Why do we have day after day of protest after the apologies have been made?

Its currently off season in female stoning league so they have to have some way to let off steam.


User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3474 posts, RR: 17
Reply 15, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2710 times:
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Quoting Revelation (Reply 13):
You can't have it both ways, so which do you believe?

I said you knew that place was not civilized due to what has been happening there and for sure they know the rules.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 13):
Why do we have day after day of protest after the apologies have been made?

I did not say i approve of those actions, but they felt that they were insulted and acted accordingly.
I believe the apologies were sincere, they may not have that same feeling, maybe they felt the same as:

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 8):
Politics ergo bullshit. They don't mean it.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineEmirates773ER From Pakistan, joined Jun 2005, 1449 posts, RR: 9
Reply 16, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2693 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 11):
It's called civilization.

Civilization? What freakin joke! Your forces invaded a country on false pretenses which led to tens of thousands of people dying yet you are getting our panties all tied up on this? US forces should be booted out of afghanistan (which they will soon be). This is only the start of the end game.



The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12554 posts, RR: 25
Reply 17, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2682 times:

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 16):
US forces should be booted out of afghanistan (which they will soon be). This is only the start of the end game.

They should leave, booted out or not.

It'll prolly happen after the November election, even if the GOP candidate (whomever it is) wins.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8841 posts, RR: 24
Reply 18, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2666 times:

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 16):
Your forces invaded a country on false pretenses which led to tens of thousands of people dying yet you are getting our panties all tied up on this?

Surely you are not confusing Iraq and Afghanistan are you?

Be that as it may, the vast majority of innocents/civilians killed in both countries in both countries were killed by your fellows, not ours. You see, we have something within us called a conscience that generally makes us try to avoid killing people who aren't trying to kill us. The same cannot be said for those whom you seem to sympathize with.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineronglimeng From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 625 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2654 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 7):
They are trained to be soldiers, not diplomats.

Well, maybe not diplomats of the striped-pants variety, but I do think they get diplomatic training along the "cultural sensitivity" line. My impression is that with American servicemen, it doesn't stick too well, as compared to others.

In this case, it seems that someone was particularly dumb about burning the trash. I have no personal objection to burning excess holy books, but jeez, you'd think they be a little more discrete about it.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8841 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2643 times:

Quoting ronglimeng (Reply 19):
Well, maybe not diplomats of the striped-pants variety, but I do think they get diplomatic training along the "cultural sensitivity" line. My impression is that with American servicemen, it doesn't stick too well, as compared to others.

How about the Afghans taking some "cultural sensitivity" classes? We're not the ones who start killing as soon as someone offends us by burning a book or a flag or whatever.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 4022 posts, RR: 28
Reply 21, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2639 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 12):
nobody even dream that part of the world is civilized, thanks to the cold war, the Russian invasion etc...

Oh, of course, blame it on the evil Westerners / Russians... That place has been uncivilized ever since the first wayward goat herder got lost in a blizzard, ended up on the wrong side of the Kybher Pass (assuming there is even a right side), looked around at a bunch of rocks and said to himself "You know what? This looks like it would be a great place to settle down and grow some opium." Don't try to deflect criticism on the Soviets or the Americans and let them take responsibility for their own actions.

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 16):
US forces should be booted out of afghanistan (which they will soon be).

Agree - put a bullet in Karzai's head (let's face it, he is going to end up killed by some rival war-lord anyway so might as well save him the trouble, he has fed on Uncle Sam's trough for long enough) and let them kill each other as they so enjoy doing. Just remember to put some drones circling the borders zapping everything that tries to get out to avoid they do any damage outside



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineronglimeng From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 625 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2624 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
How about the Afghans taking some "cultural sensitivity" classes?

Not likely to happen. They're not very cultured and they're not very sensitive to the feelings of others - only their own.

[Aside] My wife had what I thought was a great line today as we watched footage of the demonstration in Kabul.

"How do those guys", she asked facetiously, "Get time off work to demonstrate like that ?"


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19699 posts, RR: 58
Reply 23, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 2622 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 11):
I call BS on that. If you came over here and burned a Bible in a heavily baptist neighborhood, you might get some ugly looks and even get yelled at. But you won't get killed and the locals won't start looting and pillaging.

Oh, I think that in some neighborhoods, you might be facing a group of people armed with broken bottles and such. It wouldn't spread into widespread riots because we are not a fundamentalist-saturated country, but that's because of a relatively secular society, not because we're Christian.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 13):
They and their commanders are saying they did not know better,

This stuns me. Where the hell have they been living that they didn't know that burning the Q'uran was going to cause riots?


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8841 posts, RR: 24
Reply 24, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2610 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 23):
Oh, I think that in some neighborhoods, you might be facing a group of people armed with broken bottles and such. It wouldn't spread into widespread riots because we are not a fundamentalist-saturated country, but that's because of a relatively secular society, not because we're Christian

Then do the same in southern Italy or somewhere similar where they are deeply christian. You won't be killed, and there would be no riots.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineCerecl From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 729 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2721 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):

How about the Afghans taking some "cultural sensitivity" classes? We're not the ones who start killing as soon as someone offends us by burning a book or a flag or whatever.

The US forces are in Afghanistan. As such, they need to respect the culture of the land. If Afghans in the US start to kill after someone burnt a copy of Quran, then I would agree. As things stand, the US soldiers burnt the book in front of locals. If there is a better advertisement of "come and get us" I can't think of it. Are we really surprised about what ensued no matter how unpalatable/unreasonable WE might think it is?

[Edited 2012-02-24 17:13:43]

User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8841 posts, RR: 24
Reply 26, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2700 times:

Quoting Cerecl (Reply 25):
The US forces are in Afghanistan. As such, they need to respect the culture of the land.

Sorry, but there are limits. If you were to visit someplace and they practice cannibalism, should we be just peachy with that? This is no different - you have a culture that places their own needs (whether food, need to feel religiously dandy or whatever) above other people's lives.

I just realized - what you have over there is a sociopathic society.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1833 posts, RR: 10
Reply 27, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2723 times:

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 8):
Some "terrorists" use the internet. Should we shut it down?

  

Quoting Giancavia (Reply 9):
Doesnt excuse having no common sense

Common sense isn't so common unfortunately...

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 11):
If you came over here and burned a Bible in a heavily baptist neighborhood, you might get some ugly looks and even get yelled at. But you won't get killed and the locals won't start looting and pillaging.

Going to have to disagree with that. They might not start "looting and pillaging", but there will certainly be a bible-thumper or two in every neighbourhood south of the Bible Belt who would get violent.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 13):
Why do we have day after day of protest after the apologies have been made?

Maybe because you have overstayed your welcome?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
You see, we have something within us called a conscience that generally makes us try to avoid killing people who aren't trying to kill us.
Oh really?...

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26):
If you were to visit someplace and they practice cannibalism, should we be just peachy with that?

If you don't believe in cannibalism, don't go there.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26):
I just realized - what you have over there is a sociopathic society.

Sociopathy is more attributable to genetic factors, while societal attributes are environmental. Your statement of "sociopathic society" is grossly contradictory.



Flying refined.
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8841 posts, RR: 24
Reply 28, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2712 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 27):

Going to have to disagree with that. They might not start "looting and pillaging", but there will certainly be a bible-thumper or two in every neighbourhood south of the Bible Belt who would get violent.

You have the occasional nutjob anywhere, but the difference the here we put them in jail. You don't have a streetfull of homicidal maniacs. Remember the idiots from Abu Ghraib, or Mahmudiyah? Ask them how their careers did after that. The other difference is that we don't celebrate what they did.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 27):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
You see, we have something within us called a conscience that generally makes us try to avoid killing people who aren't trying to kill us.
Oh really?...

LOL, I remember that site claiming over a million. Maybe a few more months maybe it will be zero.

But anyway, from your site:

"The authors studied 92,614 Iraqi civilian direct deaths from the IBC database which occurred as a result of armed violence between March 20, 2003 through March 19, 2008. The authors found that most Iraqi civilian violent deaths during this time were inflicted by unknown perpetrators, primarily through extrajudicial executions which were disproportionately increased in Iraqi governorates with greater numbers of violent deaths. Unknown perpetrators also used suicide bombs, vehicle bombs, and mortars which had highly lethal and indiscriminate effects on Iraqi civilians. Deaths caused by Coalition forces of Iraqi civilians, of women and children, and of Iraqi civilians from air attacks, peaked during the invasion in 2003."

I didn't find specific numbers, but the message is that most civilian casualties were caused by people of their own culture.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinegeezer From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 1479 posts, RR: 2
Reply 29, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2691 times:

Here we go............................................

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 6):
BTW few here ask Muslims when they move to the west to adapt to the way the west lives, should that not also applies to American forces in Islamic country, the burning of the Koran is an insult to all Muslims.

I'm not sure just what you mean by the first half of that, about Muslims "adapting"; the "burning " part......we are all very aware that Muslims become very insulted when anyone burns a Koran; but let me ask you this.........are you suggesting that it's O.K. for a bunch of radical "street punks" ( who by the way, are all Muslims ) to kidnap American journalists, then make a video of a Muslim decapitating that journalist, (with his hands tied behind his back I might add), then drag the American flag through the gutter, before burning it ? If this IS what you are telling us, I should point out, a great many Americans, (myself among them), become highly "insulted" and extremely pissed off when we see this happening, and we see it happening almost every day; so perhaps you will be good enough to explain to us why this complete "double standard" is so "O.K." ?

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 8):
As opposed to American troops, who kill people, but not in the name of God. That makes it alright, I guess.

Unfortunately sir, you are attempting to tell 2% of a story (which I doubt that you understand), while leaving out the other 98% of the story, which if told accurately and truthfully, would indicate very clearly just how very much our American troops have done for the people of Afghanistan; but of course, it's not your intention to say anything "flattering" about our troops, is it ?

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 8):
Of course it is. He's a politician. They only say nonsense.

With all due respect, I must say, your "reasoning" is quite juvenile; now you are attempting to suggest that "all politicians are "evil", and only "speak" nonsense; ( I won't even bother to waste my time debating that.)
The people who "run" countries are known as "politicians"..........who would you suggest should run our country, if not politicians ? Oceanographers ? Used car salesmen ? Topologists perhaps ? Who ?

[quote=dc9northwest,reply=8]Yes, but the US doesn't have a good track record in respecting other cultures, so I can't say I'm surprised.

I would submit to anyone interested in hearing the truth, that the United States has a superlative record of respecting "other cultures"; I'm sure you wouldn't agree though, and that's just fine with me.

[quote=dc9northwest,reply=8]Some "terrorists" use the internet. Should we shut it down?


You may rest assured, you won't see any Americans trying to "shut down" the internet; what you WILL see though, is Americans "shutting down" terrorists; ( Seal Team 6 Vs. OBL comes to mind )

[quote=dc9northwest,reply=8]Politics ergo bullshit. They don't mean it.

I think you are referring to Obama now, so I won't even debate that one; (might find myself agreeing with you)

[quote=dc9northwest,reply=8]
Have you ever watched a hollywood movie? Tell me, after seeing what people here want to do for fun during the weekend... that is, see as many decapitations and exsanguinations and explosions as possible, that the US culture is not inherently prone to violence.

"Hollywood movies";..............your problem here is when you say, "what people here do for fun......." I'll point something out here, that you already know; there are several hundred million "people here"........and I can assure you, a very large % of those hundreds of millions are just as aware as you are that most Hollywood movies are inherently prone to violence; I would also point out, I personally don't watch very many Hollywood movies, although that's not necessarily why I don't. BTW........I don't recall seeing any "decapitations" in Hollywood movies lately; the decapitations I HAVE seen, were all perpetrated by Muslims, with victims whose hands were tied behind their backs.

Now, that doesn't make the Afghani right. But it sure as hell doesn't make the US right either.

When you refer to "the Afghani"...........I'm not at all clear just who you are referring to...........there are so many different "tribes", "cultures", "sides", etc etc etc in that country that I doubt that anyone knows "whose side" any of them are on.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 21):
Agree - put a bullet in Karzai's head (let's face it, he is going to end up killed by some rival war-lord anyway so might as well save him the trouble, he has fed on Uncle Sam's trough for long enough) and let them kill each other as they so enjoy doing. Just remember to put some drones circling the borders zapping everything that tries to get out to avoid they do any damage outside

Karzai is a snake; pure and simple; anytime you find yourself needing to maintain a "presence" in a place like Afghanistan, it's a fact of life that you're going to be obliged to "deal with snakes"; ( it's getting a little "old" watching this particular snake parading around in his silly looking green bath robe, wearing his silly looking "fuzzy cap / hat / or what ever you call that silly thing. Karzai is also a "joke"; not funny, but still a joke. But just wait..........one of these days, your "prediction will come true", Karzai's head will be over there, and his shoulders will be over here..........and for the next 2 weeks, all we'll hear about is Karzai this, and Karzai that, (ala W.H.) ( Tell me, is it safe to turn my TV back on yet ? )


I have tried to be patient; I have attempted not to offend anyone; I haven't told any lies; but apparently, like a few more responding to this topic, I'm also getting pretty weary (sp?) of the one-sidedness of this "being offended", "being insulted"..................................H.S.

There are people in Washingto D.C. whose job is to shovel worn-out paper money into an incinerator; yet I've never heard anyone getting "insulted", or wanting to wage a "Holy War" over that; I see a whole bunch of Muslims in Syria blasting away at their own people every day, with tanks and artillery, (who I'm sure are also Muslims); but I'm not here to "insult" , "blaspheme" or in any way attack a particular religion; I'm here attempting to point out that there are a hell of a lot of people who seem to adhere to a "double standard" , and which I think is a "crock".

Charley

P.S. I just happened to think of something that I think perhaps I should add to the above, so everyone reading this will be clear on one thing;

I happen to spend a considerable amount of time on a particular website that show-cases photography; (mostly landscapes and buildings) Not long ago, I ran across the work of a young fellow who happens to reside in the U.A E. His photography is mind-boggling, to say the least; I have been looking at world-class photography for many years now, and this guy's work is "world-class" and beyond; he also happens to be a Muslim; he even mentions this in his profile; I was so impressed, so "in awe" of this young man's work, that I emailed him; he's in his 20's and I'm in my late 70's..........yet his knowledge of photography and technique makes me feel like a "beginner"; we communicate via email; mostly about photography; I KNOW this fellow is a great photographer, and I very much "think" he's a good person; I don't think he would waste his time if he didn't think positively about me; so you see, that's exactly why it's always foolish to insult particular groups of people; I'm very inclined to see the "good" in individuals, regardless of the particular "group", "religion", or country they come from. So.......on the off chance that anyone decides to accuse me of being "anti" anything, just remember, it may be your opinion, but it won't true; therefore, it won't be worth much.
Thanks.



Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11654 posts, RR: 15
Reply 30, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2686 times:

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
Seems we're not wanted there any more and we should leave.

They never wanted foreign fighters on their land anyway. That was the whole point of our troops being blown up by them. That was why all the IEDs in Iraq. That is why thousands have been dying.

Perhaps a better use of those desicrated Quran's (they were written in, after all) would have been to decipher the codes. Maybe even pay off one of those involved to get information about what is going on?

Of course, it is easy to say after the fact. And, like the American flag, these desicrated Quran's should have been disposed of (burned) in a private and civilized cerimony. We are, after all, on THEIR land.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinestasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3283 posts, RR: 6
Reply 31, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2676 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
Let's get things straight, folks:

1) Prisoners use Qurans to write messages to each other. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-202_162-...ed-qurans-held-extremist-messages/

2) A couple of dumb recruits, having been ordered to "dispose of" the desecrated Qurans (desecrated by Muslims, I might add) stupidly light a fire and throw the books on the fire in full view of Afghans.

3) Afghans go apeshit and start killing people. Including an Afghan soldier you kills US troops.

4) Obama and US Commander apologize

  

Look, we Americans need a reality check here. The US Military burns Muslim Holy Korans because the "high value detainees" at the enormous Parwan prison were using them as a way to pass coded messages to each other. So, now let's look at this in a calm and realistic manner.

1. The Taliban execute bound, blindfolded, AFGHAN tribal elders at point blank range with an 82mm recoilless rifle, and release a video of it to the Aljazeera news network : Response of the Afghan people and International Press? Meh.

2. The Taliban torture and execute SIXTEEN bound and blindfolded Pakistani policemen and civilians with pistols and AK47s at point blank range, and release a video of it : Response of Afghan public and the international press - once again, Meh.

3. Americans throw some already-DEFACED Korans in the burn pile with their trash : RIOTS, MURDERS, AND INTERNATIONAL OUTRAGE.

4. Any questions whether the American public is being played for idiots and fools? MEH!!!

[Edited 2012-02-24 20:21:38]


"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1833 posts, RR: 10
Reply 32, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2663 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 28):
Maybe a few more months maybe it will be zero.

Should have been zero in the first place, but that's just wishful thinking...

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 28):
But anyway, from your site:

More your site than mine. It's maintained by Americans, and I found it through the Washington Post and the New York Times, outlets of American media.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 31):

So...let me get this right...you're justifying the mistake (and I'm willing to call it a mistake) of American troops by saying "well the Afghans do way worse stuff!!"?



Flying refined.
User currently offlinestasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3283 posts, RR: 6
Reply 33, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2654 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 32):
So...let me get this right...you're justifying the mistake (and I'm willing to call it a mistake) of American troops by saying "well the Afghans do way worse stuff!!"?

I am saying that most of the Afghan public seems to have screwed-up priorities. Period.



"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlinedc9northwest From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 2292 posts, RR: 7
Reply 34, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2651 times:

Quoting geezer (Reply 29):
Unfortunately sir, you are attempting to tell 2% of a story (which I doubt that you understand), while leaving out the other 98% of the story, which if told accurately and truthfully, would indicate very clearly just how very much our American troops have done for the people of Afghanistan; but of course, it's not your intention to say anything "flattering" about our troops, is it ?

Can you explain why you don't think I understand? Let me guess... is it my flag or my age? If one of the two, don't bother to respond, I don't care for your opinion. If not, feel free to comment.

To make something clear: if the Afghan people (Pashtun or Dari or both) do not want to US there, then the US troops should not be there. Even if they brought very tangible advancements to Afghani society (which they most certainly did, compared to the Taliban), if the Afghani people do not all want them there, the US troops should stay away from foreign soil.

I have as much say in US matters as you do and I want the US meddling in foreign affairs to stop. No one made the US the world police.

I have nothing against the troops except from the fact that they failed to exercise critical judgment in a critical situation. Burning Qurans in an Islamic country results in riots. If they don't understand that... well, they will never do well for themselves. Do I agree with the riots? Hell no. But they were avoidable by the use of a very tiny bit of common sense. So, I don't side with the locals or the troops.

Unlike many, I don't think that an Afghani life is worth less than an American life. At the same time, it's not our job to deal with the problems of Afghan society. I don't want the troops to die for someone else's conflict.

Killed Osama, good, now get out, out, out. To be perfectly frank, all that was needed for that was good intelligence, which comes partly from understanding cultures, not burning Qurans.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 32):
Should have been zero in the first place, but that's just wishful thinking...

Exactly.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 32):
So...let me get this right...you're justifying the mistake (and I'm willing to call it a mistake) of American troops by saying "well the Afghans do way worse stuff!!"?

It probably was a mistake. It wasn't intentional... but a bit of cultural understanding goes a long way. Any idiot could've seen what burning Qurans could lead to.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 31):
Look, we Americans need a reality check here. The US Military burns Muslim Holy Korans because the "high value detainees" at the enormous Parwan prison were using them as a way to pass coded messages to each other. So, now let's look at this in a calm and realistic manner.

Why are you posting on the internet, then? Terrorists use the internet to communicate.


User currently offlinestasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3283 posts, RR: 6
Reply 35, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2649 times:

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 34):
Why are you posting on the internet, then? Terrorists use the internet to communicate.

Okay, let's be rational for a moment, shall we?

I am NOT a terrorist, a murderer or an enemy combatant, nor I am under arrest in a PRISON. If I were a convict here in the USA, my personal liberties would be restricted in NUMEROUS manners. Furthermore, if someone torched a Bible in front of me, as a Christian, I would NOT murder that person because I am more open-minded, educated, tolerant, and compassionate than some other folks, and some others of different religions. What percentage of the Afghans can EVEN read the Koran?? Literacy is less than 10 percent!! The educated Afghans have by and large LEFT the country!!   

[Edited 2012-02-24 21:11:59]


"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1833 posts, RR: 10
Reply 36, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 2620 times:

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 33):
I am saying that most of the Afghan public seems to have screwed-up priorities. Period.

And they probably look at us and say North Americans have screwed-priorities. That IS part of the reason they hate us in the first place...

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 35):
I am NOT a terrorist, a murderer or an enemy combatant

But I would have no way of knowing that, because this is the internet and you could just be putting us all on while you scheme away. I think that's what dc9northwest was getting at.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 35):
Literacy is less than 10 percent!!

By "10 percent" I think you meant 28.1% of the population over the age of 15, most of which are bilingual. I'm not religious, but even I know you don't need to be able to read the bible to practice Christianity...



Flying refined.
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 37, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2613 times:

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 35):
What percentage of the Afghans can EVEN read the Koran?? Literacy is less than 10 percent!!

The following figures are from the CIA World Fact Book:

Literacy: (definition: age 15 and over can read and write)
total population: 28.1%
male: 43.1%
female: 12.6% (2000 est.)

School life expectancy (primary to tertiary education):
total: 9 years
male: 11 years
female: 7 years (2009)

Allowing for the possibility that the figures are dated and the fact that the country is a war zone, learning to read and recite the Qur'an is encouraged and viewed as a part of education in Muslim countries.

On thing that is being overlooked in the claim that US citizens would not kill someone simply because they burnt a bible is the context in which the burning takes place. Imagine if you will, the US has been occupied by a foreign power (Ok its isn't likely to happen any time soon). If that foreign power, for whatever reasons, started burning bibles are you saying that the majority of loyal US citizens would say, "Hey, I'm cool with that." I suspect that there would be plenty of people angry and that there would be riots, possibly resulting in death. There is a world of difference between an individual burning a book and the representatives of a foreign power doing the same thing in your own country, deliberately or by mistake.

But I wonder if the world's population will ever be mature enough to:

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people living life in peace

(John Lennon)


User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 4022 posts, RR: 28
Reply 38, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2600 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 28):
You have the occasional nutjob anywhere, but the difference the here we put them in jail. You don't have a streetfull of homicidal maniacs.

Forget about it - you are trying to argue with a moral relativist, there is no point. They will claim to be secular, but only when it applies to the U.S. and its predominant religions - anything done by someone of some other religion or country is automatically right and we should not judge them. Don't make them bring up examples of things that happened 500 years ago to justify their point!

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 32):
the Washington Post and the New York Times, outlets of American media.

The WaPo and the NYT are about as American as Al-Jazeera...



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineGyreaux130J From United States of America, joined Jun 2011, 126 posts, RR: 0
Reply 39, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2582 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 37):
Imagine if you will, the US has been occupied by a foreign power (Ok its isn't likely to happen any time soon). If that foreign power, for whatever reasons, started burning bibles are you saying that the majority of loyal US citizens would say, "Hey, I'm cool with that." I suspect that there would be plenty of people angry and that there would be riots, possibly resulting in death.

I'm gonna guess the reaction would be somewhere between "Hey, I'm cool with that" and "there would be plenty of people angry and that there would be riots, possibly resulting in death". Nice try at drawing a parallel between the average Afghan and the average American though. Logical fallacy much?



When all else fails, fly Martin Baker!
User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3474 posts, RR: 17
Reply 40, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2575 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting geezer (Reply 29):
I'm not sure just what you mean by the first half of that, about Muslims "adapting"; the "burning " part

In all discussions here there always this : If you move to the west it's a must that Muslims should adapt to the west way of living or go back home.
Now when an army move to another country should they not at least be sensitive to the way the local thinks, specially when it comes to the religion aspect?

Quoting geezer (Reply 29):
are you suggesting that it's O.K. for a bunch of radical "street punks" ( who by the way, are all Muslims ) to kidnap American journalists, then make a video of a Muslim decapitating that journalist, (with his hands tied behind his back I might add), then drag the American flag through the gutter, before burning it ? If this IS what you are telling us, I should point out, a great many Americans, (myself among them), become highly "insulted" and extremely pissed off when we see this happening, and we see it happening almost every day; so perhaps you will be good enough to explain to us why this complete "double standard" is so "O.K." ?

It might surprise you that i am more insulted by such actions than you. Somebody is kidnapping my religion to commit barbaric actions, no i never agreed with such behavior, and i do not care if the victim was an American or from the jungles, a human life is a human life.

BTW i am getting old, so can you remind me the reason of the riots few years ago in LA? how many people were killed, and the total damage to properties?



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10735 posts, RR: 9
Reply 41, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 2514 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 6):
BTW few here ask Muslims when they move to the west to adapt to the way the west lives, should that not also applies to American forces in Islamic country,

Anyone living in a foreign country with a different culture should adopt, unless this culture/society is unbearably inhumane. If a muslim chooses to live in a western democratic country, he must accept that in case of conflict that country´s constitution comes before anything said in the Koran. And if a Westerner lives in a muslim country its of cause utterly disrespectful to burn up a holy book.
I am always amazed how stupid and reckless a minority among the US Forces is.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 6):
the burning of the Koran is an insult to all Muslims.

I respect that. So what do you do to old, rotten Korans? You dont eat them. Are they going to the wastebin (with the danger of being burned with other rubbish on the junkyard)? Are they buried?
Someone could burn up 10 of these books today, and unless he is so stupid to advertise such stupidity no muslim will ever know, and no problem will arise.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 33):
I am saying that most of the Afghan public seems to have screwed-up priorities. Period.

I dont know if "most", but surely far too many. Afghanistan has been trouble as long as it exists. Leave those stoneage blockheads alone, is my wish. Let them prosper, let them go down, its a country I would never spend anything welfare $ for. There are many better places who need help who dont go on murder hunt against their helpers.


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10895 posts, RR: 37
Reply 42, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2493 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 37):
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people living life in peace

(John Lennon)

He's my man. I agree 100% with all the things he said.
No wonder he was murdered...

  



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10735 posts, RR: 9
Reply 43, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2479 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 42):

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 37):
Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people living life in peace

(John Lennon)

He's my man. I agree 100% with all the things he said.
No wonder he was murdered...

Unfortunately humans are not made of this stuff. As long as capitalism (egoism) and religions (chauvinism) rule, it´ll never get any decidedly better.


User currently offlineimiakhtar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 44, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2481 times:

Quoting na (Reply 41):
respect that. So what do you do to old, rotten Korans? You dont eat them. Are they going to the wastebin (with the danger of being burned with other rubbish on the junkyard)? Are they buried?

That's what I find ironic. Burning or burial is indeed the correct method of disposal for religious text. However, doing half a job and dumping the rest at a waste site is not.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
Newt Gingrich tells it like it is on this topic;

I see your true colours.

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
No need to stick around for the inevitable inglorious withdrawal, let's just get it over with, for the sake of everyone involved.

You can lead a horse to water.....


User currently offlineCerecl From Australia, joined Jul 2008, 729 posts, RR: 0
Reply 45, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2470 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26):
If you were to visit someplace and they practice cannibalism, should we be just peachy with that?

1. If you know the people from the place you want to go practise cannibalism, maybe you should reconsider your plan.
2. If you have to go to this place, you put yourself on guard, you avoid giving any cues to those who want to eat you. If you parade in front of the cannibals and expose your flesh, I doubt a lot of people would feel sorry for you if anything untoward happens. That said, there is no excuse for the murder of NATO soldiers who probably had nothing to do with this. As far as I understand, Koran burning was the mere trigger to the deadly protest, which probably had its roots in a whole range of issues.


User currently offlinecaliatenza From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 1577 posts, RR: 0
Reply 46, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2438 times:

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 16):

Civilization? What freakin joke! Your forces invaded a country on false pretenses which led to tens of thousands of people dying yet you are getting our panties all tied up on this? US forces should be booted out of afghanistan (which they will soon be). This is only the start of the end game.

uh, Afghanistan wasnt on false pretenses. I seem to recall a certain Taliban hiding a certain OBL...who was responsible for more than 3000 deaths on 9-11.


User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5712 posts, RR: 18
Reply 47, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2427 times:

Quoting ronglimeng (Reply 22):
"How do those guys", she asked facetiously, "Get time off work to demonstrate like that ?"

Only to get killed while rioting trying to prove the world what a "religion of peace" islam is. Priceless.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 31):
1. The Taliban execute bound, blindfolded, AFGHAN tribal elders at point blank range with an 82mm recoilless rifle, and release a video of it to the Aljazeera news network : Response of the Afghan people and International Press? Meh.

2. The Taliban torture and execute SIXTEEN bound and blindfolded Pakistani policemen and civilians with pistols and AK47s at point blank range, and release a video of it : Response of Afghan public and the international press - once again, Meh.

3. Americans throw some already-DEFACED Korans in the burn pile with their trash : RIOTS, MURDERS, AND INTERNATIONAL OUTRAGE.
Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 33):
I am saying that most of the Afghan public seems to have screwed-up priorities. Period.

Add to that "outrage" over the Danish cartoons, "outrage" over the South Park or concerns about Osama getting a proper musulman burial instead of being relieved that someone who supposedly does not represent "the religion of peace" is no more etc. etc. That being said the troops have been on the ground for quite a while and the screwed-up priorities are nothing new and should be taken into consideration in delicate situations like infidels handling muslims' favorite story book.
Of course that it's bizarre that Muslim insurgents shelling mosque in Fallujah or Taliban terrorists bombing mosque full of fellow muslims in Pakistan are a non-issue while everyone from Jakarta to London(istan) gets their panties in a bunch over a cartoon in a second-rate newspaper published on the other end of the world. But that's the way things are, and the way the US military handled this thing is a major screw up, at least for the sake of security of everyone from ISAF on the ground.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 36):
Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 35):
Literacy is less than 10 percent!!

By "10 percent" I think you meant 28.1% of the population over the age of 15

Wow, that makes the situation completely different. Thanks for clarification. Having not just one but almost three out of ten people who can read and write makes an "abbyssmal" difference.


User currently offlineN867DA From United States of America, joined May 2008, 1008 posts, RR: 0
Reply 48, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2391 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
Be that as it may, the vast majority of innocents/civilians killed in both countries in both countries were killed by your fellows, not ours. You see, we have something within us called a conscience that generally makes us try to avoid killing people who aren't trying to kill us. The same cannot be said for those whom you seem to sympathize with.

Paging Joseph McCarthy...paging Senator McCarth!

Get a grip. Stop making things in such black and white terms.



A nation turns its lonely eyes to you
User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3447 posts, RR: 2
Reply 49, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2369 times:

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 16):
What freakin joke!

Oh yeah, the joke is Pakistani security forces gave cover to the Taliban and OBL all the while claiming they didn't have anything to do with them.

Quoting ronglimeng (Reply 22):
"How do those guys", she asked facetiously, "Get time off work to demonstrate like that ?"

When someone insults Mo or defiles the Koran it's a national holiday.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 37):
School life expectancy (primary to tertiary education):
total: 9 years
male: 11 years
female: 7 years (2009)

The amazing thing about this stat is all you have to do is graduate from the 8th grade and you are qualified to be a teacher.

My Afghan friend told me once "if the Afghans are not fighting foreigners they are fighting themselves"



"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11654 posts, RR: 15
Reply 50, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2356 times:

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 47):
Only to get killed while rioting trying to prove the world what a "religion of peace" islam is. Priceless.

Let's not forget the Christians beating homeless and protesters in the United States and telling people they are going to die because they can not afford basic health care. Because Christianity is such a peaceful religion.

I say this because the entire far right-wing from FOX news to those running for president to those in control of the House are all screaming and crying and carrying on with their false assumption that the United States is a Christian nation.

Also, if foreign forces invaded the United States you can be darn sure that people would use IEDs to make a point to the foreign fighters they are not welcome here.

But, in Afghanistan, it is all about religion and absolutly nothing else. Since that is what FOX Christian news wants everyone to believe.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1833 posts, RR: 10
Reply 51, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2288 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 38):
Forget about it - you are trying to argue with a moral relativist, there is no point. They will claim to be secular, but only when it applies to the U.S. and its predominant religions - anything done by someone of some other religion or country is automatically right and we should not judge them. Don't make them bring up examples of things that happened 500 years ago to justify their point!

I hope you aren't trying to describe me, because if so, you have certainly made this atheist conservative's day    And please don't make me out to sound like an American-hater, because I am the furthest thing from it. But that's the thing with Americans, the second I disagree with you on anything, I'm made out to be the anti-christ.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 38):
The WaPo and the NYT are about as American as Al-Jazeera...

You'll have to elaborate on that one for me, because as far as I know they are American organizations run by born-and-raised Americans.

Quoting na (Reply 43):
As long as capitalism (egoism) and religions (chauvinism) rule, it´ll never get any decidedly better.

I agree with the religion part, but if capitalism truly ruled then people would realize it's just too damn expensive to go to war!

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 47):
Quoting ronglimeng (Reply 22):
"How do those guys", she asked facetiously, "Get time off work to demonstrate like that ?"

Only to get killed while rioting trying to prove the world what a "religion of peace" islam is. Priceless.

It appears (from your profile anyway) that you aren't an American, but surely you remember a little incident called the L.A. Riots? Just in case you don't remember (the link will help you), 53 Americans were killed (10 of which were shot by their own army/police) during six days of rioting. It's insulting to humanity that you try to claim yourself, or Americans, as superior. Everyone has faults, and sometimes there are people that have more than others. But discrimination is never the solution.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 47):
Wow, that makes the situation completely different. Thanks for clarification. Having not just one but almost three out of ten people who can read and write makes an "abbyssmal" difference.

How convenient you would choose to reply to my comment as opposed to Reply 37 by Quokkas, in which he goes into much greater detail with respect to those statistics.



Flying refined.
User currently onlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21625 posts, RR: 55
Reply 52, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2226 times:

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 31):
The US Military burns Muslim Holy Korans because the "high value detainees" at the enormous Parwan prison were using them as a way to pass coded messages to each other.

Burning them is not the only way of getting rid of them (or, rather, keeping them out of the hands of those who would use them for ill purposes).

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 31):
So, now let's look at this in a calm and realistic manner.

1. The Taliban execute bound, blindfolded, AFGHAN tribal elders at point blank range with an 82mm recoilless rifle, and release a video of it to the Aljazeera news network : Response of the Afghan people and International Press? Meh.

2. The Taliban torture and execute SIXTEEN bound and blindfolded Pakistani policemen and civilians with pistols and AK47s at point blank range, and release a video of it : Response of Afghan public and the international press - once again, Meh.

3. Americans throw some already-DEFACED Korans in the burn pile with their trash : RIOTS, MURDERS, AND INTERNATIONAL OUTRAGE.

4. Any questions whether the American public is being played for idiots and fools? MEH!!!

Your mistake is that you're trying to view the actions of those motivated by a religion through a lens of logic. And when you're motivated by something that is intrinsically illogical, that doesn't work. There is no logical explanation for why people would get pissed about US soldiers accidentally burning Korans when there's so much worse stuff that some Afghans are doing to worry about, but that is the way it is, and it's not going to change overnight. They don't need a logical reason to protest, they've got a religious reason to protest (one excludes the other). That's a constraint we need to be aware of, and to work within.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 53, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2205 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
Newt Gingrich tells it like it is on this topic;

Gingrich is a stupid idiot for acting very similar to the terrorists. If he ever gets elected I bet he will have more blood on his hands than any terrorist.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
Let's get things straight, folks:

OK. Lets's get things straight.
1) People who should have known better disposed of Qurans in the wrong way.
2) Predictable other people overreact.
3) Obama is smart enough to take steps to handle the situation by apologizing for stupid actions done by US troops.
4) Mostly right wing extremists decide to fuel the fire instead.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 23):
This stuns me. Where the hell have they been living that they didn't know that burning the Q'uran was going to cause riots?

Pretty much sums it up.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 26):
Sorry, but there are limits. If you were to visit someplace and they practice cannibalism, should we be just peachy with that? This is no different - you have a culture that places their own needs (whether food, need to feel religiously dandy or whatever) above other people's lives.

There are good ways and there are bad ways. Do you practice the same sentiment in all directions?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 28):
Remember the idiots from Abu Ghraib, or Mahmudiyah? Ask them how their careers did after that. The other difference is that we don't celebrate what they did.
Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 31):
Look, we Americans need a reality check here. The US Military burns Muslim Holy Korans because the "high value detainees" at the enormous Parwan prison were using them as a way to pass coded messages to each other. So, now let's look at this in a calm and realistic manner.

1. The Taliban execute bound, blindfolded, AFGHAN tribal elders at point blank range with an 82mm recoilless rifle, and release a video of it to the Aljazeera news network : Response of the Afghan people and International Press? Meh.

2. The Taliban torture and execute SIXTEEN bound and blindfolded Pakistani policemen and civilians with pistols and AK47s at point blank range, and release a video of it : Response of Afghan public and the international press - once again, Meh.

3. Americans throw some already-DEFACED Korans in the burn pile with their trash : RIOTS, MURDERS, AND INTERNATIONAL OUTRAGE.

4. Any questions whether the American public is being played for idiots and fools? MEH!!!

If we claim to be superior we need to live by the superior standards we preach.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 37):
But I wonder if the world's population will ever be mature enough to:

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people living life in peace

I once suggested that it is time to abandon the concept of nations here. Got some interesting comments  
Quoting na (Reply 41):
I respect that. So what do you do to old, rotten Korans? You dont eat them. Are they going to the wastebin (with the danger of being burned with other rubbish on the junkyard)? Are they buried?
Someone could burn up 10 of these books today, and unless he is so stupid to advertise such stupidity no muslim will ever know, and no problem will arise.

Actually burial or burning is the right, but the process of how it is done is as if not more important.

It is similar to halal, kosher, etc. where it is how it is done that matters, not the end result alone.


User currently offlinestasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3283 posts, RR: 6
Reply 54, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2145 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 53):
Burning them is not the only way of getting rid of them (or, rather, keeping them out of the hands of those who would use them for ill purposes).

Do we somehow smuggle the Korans in question out of the prison, fly the Korans to an undisclosed location, and dispose of them in some other culturally sensitive way? Is so, that's ridiculous. These people are killing unarmed civilians, bombing people, and killing US servicepeople with cowardly roadside bombs. Let's get back to the cause of the whole issue - the prison inmates defaced the Korans by using them as a means to communicate plans for further killings. Yes, it's logic in an illogical country - but logic is the truth - not the emotion. Now, as for the manner of burning the Korans, could it have been done in secret - YES.

But did the service people involved purposely do this burning to make a point to the Afghanis (we are leaving the country) as a "screw you" type of gesture - perhaps. Many service people are devout Christians - and religious hatred can go both ways.

[Edited 2012-02-25 16:33:26]


"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlinedc9northwest From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 2292 posts, RR: 7
Reply 55, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2141 times:

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 57):
But did the service people involved purposely do this burning to make a point to the Afghanis (we are leaving the country) as a "screw you" type of gesture - perhaps. Many service people are devout Christians - and religious hatred can go both ways.

Fair enough. The Afghanis should have just burned some Bibles. Would have been much fairer to everyone involved.


User currently offlinegeezer From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 1479 posts, RR: 2
Reply 56, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2085 times:

[quote=dc9northwest,reply=34]Can you explain why you don't think I understand? Let me guess... is it my flag or my age? If one of the two, don't bother to respond, I don't care for your opinion. If not, feel free to comment.

Alex;
I'll be happy to try to explain that; but first, go back and re-read the last paragraph of reply #29; I put that in there because I foresaw the need for it. Now, if you've read what I wrote, you will know two things about me......I neither like nor dislike people because of where they come from; I don't even have an opinion about Romania; I have never been there; I don't know anyone from there; When I hear Romania referred to, I usually always think of Radu Lupu; I'm assuming you know of, or are aware of who he is, (or was), hopefully he's still "with us"; Clearly one of the greatest pianists of this century. and one of the 4 or 5 greatest that I have ever been fortunate enough to hear "in person", and I've heard the very best. When I typed that reply, I had no idea if you were young or old; all I knew was, your opinions were not the same as mine. Now that I have read this reply, I actually realize I owe you an apology; I hope you will accept this as being it. Your last reply is quite well written, and I agree with much of it to a certain extent, but not all of it. In any case, it is not my intent to insult anyone, especially a young person; I see you are about the age of my grand son; I would become very irate if anyone were to attempt to harm him; you may rest assured, I very much like young people; they are our future. I especially applaud young people who are smart enough to realize the value of getting an education; ( I wasn't when I was your age )

When you mention "the Afghan people".........that right there is a very difficult concept to grasp, because it's a country that is very difficult for people in western countries to understand; It's like a lot of countries........the people from one region are usually "at war" with people from another region; even more important than "what region" they are from, is "what war lord" controls the region where you live ! That right there is why saying "the Afghan people" is completely meaningless. All of the controversy on this thread centers around "the Afghan People", but it's impossible to define exactly just who (or what) constitutes "Afghan People". I seriously doubt that many responding to this thread have ever been anywhere near Afghanistan; so like everyone else, they're basing all of their opinions on........other people's opinions; (which is seldom a good thing) I've never been there either; but I'm very close to someone who HAS been there; as recently as three weeks ago as a matter of fact. I'm not at liberty to mention any names, but I can say this; I have great faith in this person's integrity, and his opinions relative to the "situation on the ground" in Afghanistan; I can also say, he's an O-4 in the USAF; and that's all I can say.

I can also tell you this........you, and some other posters on this thread, are completely incorrect when you refer to what the "people of Afghanistan "want" or "need". What they both want and need, is a stable country in which to live and bring up their families, and they have never had that in their lifetimes, and as it looks now, possibly never will have.
This whole thing about burning Korans is the result of some one failing to provide adequate leadership in directing the people who had to do the actual "burning"; And if it's any comfort to all the people yelling about it, I can assure you that some one is going to pay dearly for this failure.

The reasons are many; far TOO many to get into here. It's real easy to "assume" what "you" think people in another country want and need, but it's also rather meaningless if you haven't been, or lived there for a period of time.

I'm in no way attempting to say anything negative about the people of Afghanistan; having said that, I must also say this; if you (or "we") were to conduct a complete census of all the people in this country, here's what it would find; based on total population, it would rank very near the bottom of total numbers of people per capita to have what we westerners consider a "proper education"; there are very few ways of making a living in the country; even though this is true, I can immediately think of at least one other country that is every bit as uneducated, backward, and even more lacking in terms of natural resources, yet THEY seem to get along just fine ! Are "they" happy, "content" ? I have no idea; they have nothing else to compare their lives to; so I suppose they are about as "content" as anyone else. (I'm speaking of course of Mongolia.)

Making blanket statements that "we" (meaning the U.S., U.K., and another NATO ally or two) "have no business" being there is rather simplistic. Attempting to make a case for this is really beyond the scope of this post, (or the inclination of the posters to read and try tom understand it, and even that's assuming that I'm qualified to write and explain it, which I'm obviously not !

Screaming and yelling about having their religion "insulted" is standard operating procedure for radical Islam; while at the very same time they are burning our flag, murdering and decapitating our journalists, and making every effort to kill any of our civilians when the opportunity presents it's self.

This whole bru-ha-ha is completely out of proportion to what occurred in Afghanistan; the very same thing could just as easily have occurred in Detroit, Michigan. Why Detroit you may ask ? Because there are damn near as many Muslims in Detroit as there are in all of Afghanistan ! ( And before anyone starts screaming about that statement being incorrect, I suggest you be prepared to point out the total populations of both places ! )

Everyone on this forum knows full well why the United States is "in" Afghanistan; the reasons are just a few, and they are pretty simple; Radical Muslim "extremists" were using this country as a safe haven of operation from which to wage their so-called "holy war" against.........the U.S. (and anyone else who doesn't "agree" with them; A previous administration lacked the "will" to try to "solve" the problem, so "their" easy and in-effective answer was a few Tomahawk Cruise Missiles; ( didn't work ) the next bunch tried "boots on the ground"; it has worked to an extent, but still suffers from a few "problems"; (such as radical Muslims who seem to get pissed off about everything any other country tries to do.) You may think everything we have done to date in Afghanistan is a failure, but I would disagree, and a hell of a lot of those "Afghan People would agree with me; the big problem is, everyone is tired of the fighting, the money being spent, yet a lot of those Afghan people are living a better life today than they were before we got there.

It is very unpopular in this country to "discriminate" against women, yet when our military attempts to do something about it in another country, the very same people who champion women's rights here, scream their heads off about our efforts there. Does that not seem to be a double standard to you ?

Hey......News Flash to all radical Muslims everywhere.........it's easy to stop ! Just stop using this mountainous 3rd world country as a base for exporting terrorism to the "real world"! No 2 Quit using same for "agriculture" for growing much of the world's supply of opium. Last but not least.......stop preventing little girls from going to school to learn things, and maybe stop trying to live in the 15th century, and trying to make everyone else do the same ! Do that, and all your problems in Afghanistan will disappear OVER NIGHT !

It takes too damn long to try to explain all this stuff, so I'm going to now go work on my art work.

Charley



Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
User currently offlinedc9northwest From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 2292 posts, RR: 7
Reply 57, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2045 times:

Quoting geezer (Reply 56):
I neither like nor dislike people because of where they come from; I don't even have an opinion about Romania; I have never been there; I don't know anyone from there; When I hear Romania referred to, I usually always think of Radu Lupu; I'm assuming you know of, or are aware of who he is, (or was), hopefully he's still "with us"; Clearly one of the greatest pianists of this century. and one of the 4 or 5 greatest that I have ever been fortunate enough to hear "in person", and I've heard the very best. When I typed that reply, I had no idea if you were young or old; all I knew was, your opinions were not the same as mine. Now that I have read this reply, I actually realize I owe you an apology; I hope you will accept this as being it. Your last reply is quite well written, and I agree with much of it to a certain extent, but not all of it. In any case, it is not my intent to insult anyone, especially a young person; I see you are about the age of my grand son; I would become very irate if anyone were to attempt to harm him; you may rest assured, I very much like young people; they are our future. I especially applaud young people who are smart enough to realize the value of getting an education; ( I wasn't when I was your age )

Sir,

I suppose I owe you an apology. I was quite brusque in replying to you. Let me explain why. I have gotten a lot of dismissive replies due to my age. I've also gotten a fair amount of dismissive replies in threads dealing with the US, not because I'm from Romania, but because I'm not immediately seen as American. Of course no one can know that I'm an US citizen simply looking at my profile (or at my flag). However, many simply assume I am not.

Of course, people do not always see eye to eye. No one completely agrees with anyone else, unless they have the same thing drilled into their heads--and I call that brainwashing.

In fact, I am very glad that you've replied to my post.

Quoting geezer (Reply 56):
I can also tell you this........you, and some other posters on this thread, are completely incorrect when you refer to what the "people of Afghanistan "want" or "need". What they both want and need, is a stable country in which to live and bring up their families, and they have never had that in their lifetimes, and as it looks now, possibly never will have.
This whole thing about burning Korans is the result of some one failing to provide adequate leadership in directing the people who had to do the actual "burning"; And if it's any comfort to all the people yelling about it, I can assure you that some one is going to pay dearly for this failure.

The reasons are many; far TOO many to get into here. It's real easy to "assume" what "you" think people in another country want and need, but it's also rather meaningless if you haven't been, or lived there for a period of time.

You're absolutely right. I have no first hand knowledge of what the people living in Afghanistan (whatever faction they might belong to) want or need. Similarly, it seems clear that a stable society is the goal (or should be the goal) for any country. Nevertheless, in my opinion, that is not why the US troops were sent there. While certainly there has been an improvement since the Taliban days (to what extent, I'll admit I do not know, as there seem to be numerous problems), should we disregard the territorial integrity of another country. I think not. Now, I do believe there's some legitimacy in the US presence in Afghanistan, as the Taliban were not a legitimate government. However, I don't see why as Americans we should fight for the freedom of the people of Afghanistan, trying to bring them more freedom while neglecting the freedom of those in the United States. Indeed, I have lived in the USA for only 7 years, but I have visited since I was 8 years old, every summer. I have seen many things go downhill since 9/11, starting from personal liberties (Patriot Act) and ending with the aviation industry.

In fact I support our troops--I want them to be safe, by staying home--or at least not on the sovereign soil of other nations. I do not want to tarnish their reputation--I really don't think this is the soldiers' fault. However, there is someone at fault here, because this incident should have never happened. Did the rioters act in a normal way? Well, yes and no. Not from a global perspective; not from my perspective--a book should not lead to this. Was it unexpected, though? No. It was easy to see what these actions would lead to. This tells me some US troops have no knowledge of the Islamic Afghani culture (I mean this generally, but we can refer strictly to what the Quran means to them), or chose to disrespect it. This could have all been avoided quite easily.

Quoting geezer (Reply 56):
I'm in no way attempting to say anything negative about the people of Afghanistan; having said that, I must also say this; if you (or "we") were to conduct a complete census of all the people in this country, here's what it would find; based on total population, it would rank very near the bottom of total numbers of people per capita to have what we westerners consider a "proper education"; there are very few ways of making a living in the country; even though this is true, I can immediately think of at least one other country that is every bit as uneducated, backward, and even more lacking in terms of natural resources, yet THEY seem to get along just fine ! Are "they" happy, "content" ? I have no idea; they have nothing else to compare their lives to; so I suppose they are about as "content" as anyone else. (I'm speaking of course of Mongolia.)

That is completely accurate. Afghanistan was, a possibly still is, a failed state. Is it the sole responsibility of the US, and American troops to rectify that? I don't believe so. Yes, the Taliban were an illegitimate government. OBL deserved his fate. But what next?

Quoting geezer (Reply 56):
Screaming and yelling about having their religion "insulted" is standard operating procedure for radical Islam; while at the very same time they are burning our flag, murdering and decapitating our journalists, and making every effort to kill any of our civilians when the opportunity presents it's self.

Radical religion in general is bad news. Radical Islamists often exaggerate, from our standpoint, at least. Now, I am not religious, so I cannot claim to understand what it means to them.

Indeed, flag-burning is an often occurring act... why lower ourselves to these standards and make public the fact that our servicemen burned their holy book?

Quoting geezer (Reply 56):
Making blanket statements that "we" (meaning the U.S., U.K., and another NATO ally or two) "have no business" being there is rather simplistic.

You may or may not know, but Romania has also contributed to the efforts in Afghanistan and suffered casualties. Yes, it's simplistic, but how detailed can we get on an internet forum that's geared towards aviation? I am a big believer in territorial sovereignty, and there are very few instances where I accept the need for foreign intervention. Afghanistan in the Taliban era would qualify, though. Now, Iraq does not. That said, it should have been a quick mission in Afghanistan. Factors, however, contributed to the long process--mountainous terrain, difficult conditions, etc.

Quoting geezer (Reply 56):
Hey......News Flash to all radical Muslims everywhere.........it's easy to stop ! Just stop using this mountainous 3rd world country as a base for exporting terrorism to the "real world"! No 2 Quit using same for "agriculture" for growing much of the world's supply of opium. Last but not least.......stop preventing little girls from going to school to learn things, and maybe stop trying to live in the 15th century, and trying to make everyone else do the same ! Do that, and all your problems in Afghanistan will disappear OVER NIGHT !

No 1 and no 3 I agree. However, keep in mind this: in the 10th-15th century Islamic nations were at their height, and there was much more done in Islamic nations than in the European Dark Ages. We are lucky there was something to prevent complete decadence after the fall of the Roman Empire.


Regarding no 2... there's a better solution. Legalize opiates, etc. That way the money will not reach the terrorist organizations or drug cartels, but legitimate farmers. If that happens, I can guarantee an economic boom in countries like Afghanistan or Bolivia. I'm sure you disagree, but I've studied the drug problem and the Drug War should not go on--all that happens if that the guys in Mexico who decapitate everyone get more and more money. Drugs have an inflexible demand curve--legal or illegal, it does not matter, they will never disappear.


User currently onlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21625 posts, RR: 55
Reply 58, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2038 times:

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 54):
Do we somehow smuggle the Korans in question out of the prison, fly the Korans to an undisclosed location, and dispose of them in some other culturally sensitive way?

Why do they have to be destroyed? Why not just keep them in a warehouse somewhere?

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 54):
Is so, that's ridiculous.

The whole religious motivation behind the protests is ridiculous. But saying that doesn't change it. It is what it is. Learn to adapt to the reality.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinestasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3283 posts, RR: 6
Reply 59, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 2025 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 58):
Learn to adapt to the reality.

The reality will take place when the United States military is no longer a presence in Afghanistan - and a Afghan civil war happens - any Afghan citizen was any sense will leave their country for the Opium traffickers and warloads before the US military completely withdrawls. The place is a complete dung hole and Bush should have never invaded Afghanistan - and Obama should have never supported the CIA war there - when all we needed to do was blow up a house in Pakistan where OBL was holed up - thanks to the Pakistani ISI.

US Military officers are now being murdered inside Afghan government offices. Two were killed tonite in the Afghan Interior Ministry. The United States needs to leave Afghanistan now - and end the financial gravy train of financial aid to the Afghan and the Pakistani governments immediately. Hopefully some kind of intellectual ‘renaissance’ will eventually bring the Afghan people out of their ignorant, brutal existence. Until then, the United States and her allies all need to get away and leave them to their own devices as long as they don’t pose a threat to the international community and OUR freedom.

Source: http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...istan-korans-idUSTRE81K09T20120226

[Edited 2012-02-25 22:02:10]

[Edited 2012-02-25 22:06:35]


"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8841 posts, RR: 24
Reply 60, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1915 times:

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 59):
US Military officers are now being murdered inside Afghan government offices. Two were killed tonite in the Afghan Interior Ministry. The United States needs to leave Afghanistan now - and end the financial gravy train of financial aid to the Afghan and the Pakistani governments immediately. Hopefully some kind of intellectual ‘renaissance’ will eventually bring the Afghan people out of their ignorant, brutal existence. Until then, the United States and her allies all need to get away and leave them to their own devices as long as they don’t pose a threat to the international community and OUR freedom.

I agree it's time to leave, but not that we shouldn't have gone there to begin with. We had no choice but to go after Afghanistan after they were shielding OBL. We went there in the hope that by doing what we could to avoid civilian casualties (going in on foot rather than carpet-bombing the place), by establishing a democratic government, by putting in schools, roads etc that we could get the Afghans out of the 11th century. Well it didn't work. For cultural and religious reasons, Afghans simply will not give up their misogynic, xenophobic ways.

But as westerners we had to try - our culture is built the hope that people are essentially good and will make the right choices if given a chance. What Afghanistan proves in a modern context is that no, some cultures are simply unyieldingly and violently intolerant of anyone without a Quran in one hand and a penis in the other. There is no hope for them to be pulled into the modern world. (and the same can be said to varying degrees of other countries as well.

The best solution would be to put a 20-mile high wall around the country and let them rot. But we can't do that.

So what do we do after we pull out? Obviously the Taliban will take over again. Islamists around the world will have HUGE victory with which to declare that this proves Allah is with them, that Jihad was the right thing to do, and Islamist movements will be bolstered across the world. If we think the 2000-2010 was bad in terms of international terrorism, I think it would be dwarfed by the impact of a defeat in Afghanistan. State sponsored terrorism will become an even bigger problem as more governments fall under Islamist rule and start acting more like Afghanistan and Iran.

So I agree that it's time to leave - we've done everything we could do modernize that country, and it didn't work - and more importantly there is nothing we can do to make it work. They are just too backward. But that failure will lead to a wider conflict. What will we do when a dirty bomb goes off in London or New York? The US will never again go for a ground war in the middle east, so the response will have to be restricted to air power. The question is how far do we have to go? Obviously the old way done under Clinton didn't work (token bombings). Should the Bush Doctrine be revived saying that if we know terrorists are operating out of a certain country and that the government is shielding them in any way, we will attack the government? For instance, if terrorists operating out of Pakistan strike US interests, we would turn their Ministries for Defence, Intelligence and other involved ministries into large craters - damn the collateral damage.

I think it will get ugly over the next couple of decades. History has shown that every few hundred years the Islamists go on a rampage and are only stopped (for a couple of centuries) when they are handed a major, major political and military defeat that makes them doubt in Jihad, like the Battles of Vienna or the end of the Reconquista. How can we do that without turning the middle east into a glass parking lot?



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently onlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12554 posts, RR: 25
Reply 61, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1882 times:

Quoting ronglimeng (Reply 19):
Well, maybe not diplomats of the striped-pants variety, but I do think they get diplomatic training along the "cultural sensitivity" line. My impression is that with American servicemen, it doesn't stick too well, as compared to others.

I imagine they are getting some cultural sensitivity training in basic training, but the main focus is on how to kill other human beings. You can only expect so much from soldiers. It's pure folly to put them into situations where they are supposed to be diplomats.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 60):
But as westerners we had to try - our culture is built the hope that people are essentially good and will make the right choices if given a chance. What Afghanistan proves in a modern context is that no, some cultures are simply unyieldingly and violently intolerant of anyone without a Quran in one hand and a penis in the other. There is no hope for them to be pulled into the modern world. (and the same can be said to varying degrees of other countries as well.

The problem I had is this aspect was 100% predictable both in Iraq and Afghanistan. The decision makers just chose to not listen to those who weren't on board with the neo-con vision. Instead we got statements such as the US would be welcomed as liberators, which if it wasn't such a tragic statement, would be laughable.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinephotopilot From Canada, joined Jul 2002, 2738 posts, RR: 18
Reply 62, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1872 times:

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 8):
the US doesn't have a good track record in respecting other cultures, so I can't say I'm surprised.

        

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 11):
I call BS on that. If you came over here and burned a Bible in a heavily baptist neighborhood, you might get some ugly looks and even get yelled at. But you won't get killed and the locals won't start looting and pillaging.

It's called civilization.

Uhhhh, you're completely wrong. Perhaps you should do some reading about the Philadelphia Bible Riots between Protestants and Catholics.

http://candst.tripod.com/boston3.htm

Now, it's easy to say ya well that was 150 years ago. Agreed, but you have to look at the point in Civilizations development in the USA at that time. Now compare that with Afghanistan's civilization's development today. Perhaps in 150 years the Afghan civil development will be equal to 1st World Advanced development. Who knows. But you can't judge a country's actions and development by comparing the USA today as your baseline comparison. Heck, there are many countries in the world that I dare say are more advanced than the USA, and there are many that are less advanced. The bottom line is that if the USA is going to pretend to be an advanced civilization and foister that on others, they they have to behave accordingly and act civilized and tolerant. Sadly the USA didn't in this instance with the burning of the Quoran's.


User currently offlineStabilator From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 710 posts, RR: 0
Reply 63, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1864 times:

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 59):
Bush should have never invaded Afghanistan

Thats almost like saying after the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor we should've just stayed at home.



So we beat on against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.
User currently offlinestasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3283 posts, RR: 6
Reply 64, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 1754 times:

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 63):
Thats almost like saying after the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor we should've just stayed at home.

OBL was already in his mansion in Pakistan, protected by the best and the brightest Pakistani ISI agents - he was NOT in Afghanistan. Wake up, it's disinformation that he commanded 9/11 from Afghanistan - it was done from Pakistan.



"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15742 posts, RR: 27
Reply 65, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1736 times:

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 64):
OBL was already in his mansion in Pakistan, protected by the best and the brightest Pakistani ISI agents - he was NOT in Afghanistan. Wake up, it's disinformation that he commanded 9/11 from Afghanistan - it was done from Pakistan.

   There are indications that Bin Laden didn't escape to Pakistan until the Battle of Tora Bora in late 2001. Accounts vary as to how close we actually got to getting him, but some indicate that it was believed that we had killed him for a time and that Osama may have been injured in a bombing attack before escaping to Pakistan.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10735 posts, RR: 9
Reply 66, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 1699 times:

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 63):
Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 59):
Bush should have never invaded Afghanistan

Thats almost like saying after the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor we should've just stayed at home.

No, it isnt. Japan attacked the US, Afghanistan didnt. Only a small number hiding in Afghanistan did (in a way). There is no reason why the US and its allies should stay on for years in this dirty rathole no one could ever conquer for long. This ridiculous dirty war lasts twice as long as WWII now, with zero perspective to bring it to a positive end. The Taliban still exist, the drug fields still exist, and the mightiest army does not have the power to change it, unless it leaves the rules of civilization behind.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9376 posts, RR: 29
Reply 67, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1694 times:

How man Englishmen made it over the Khyber Pass when retreating out of Afghanistan in the mid 19th century? Was the number 16 or so?

There is absolutely no sense in building up a "democracy" or something similar in Afghanistan when a simple error like burning a book sparks such riots. If military advsors get killed in a "safe" building, what reason is there to stay ? Where are we, when a German military commander has to apologise fpor something he did not do, nor any other German solider? Where are we, when even that apology does not keep some hoodlum from killing a German or any other western soldier if he has a chance to?

I cannot buy this BS of "fight against terror" any longer. The US has to re-think their strategy, as all other NAO partners involved there. Why go through all that expense, why risk all the lives for a totally corrupt regime with people stuck in the medieval thinking with a religion that buiulds on manipulating illiterates, which nworks like pushing a button any time they want.

Isolate Afghnaistan., let them get their act together and once they want to be a valid member of thre world community and behave as such, we can talk abut it again.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1214 posts, RR: 1
Reply 68, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 1691 times:

While the act of burning the Korans in view of Afghans was unbelievably idiotic, I do feel a little bit sorry for the soldiers who did it; a moment of thoughtlessness can cause a world of problems. For all we know, they may have thought that they were disposing of the Korans out of view of any Afghans.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
How about the Afghans taking some "cultural sensitivity" classes?

How many afghans actually attend school? Unfortunately many don't which is the root of many of the country's problems.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 27):
Going to have to disagree with that. They might not start "looting and pillaging", but there will certainly be a bible-thumper or two in every neighbourhood south of the Bible Belt who would get violent.

Remember what happened on the episode of Top Gear when they went to Alabama with some provocative slogans written on their cars?

Quoting seb146 (Reply 30):
Of course, it is easy to say after the fact. And, like the American flag, these desicrated Quran's should have been disposed of (burned) in a private and civilized cerimony. We are, after all, on THEIR land.

Or just buried where they won't be dug up. Personally I don't have too much of an issue with them getting burned, so long as no one witnesses it or finds out about it.

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 35):
The educated Afghans have by and large LEFT the country!!
And lets be honest, who wouldn't if we were in their shoes?

[quote=cmf,reply=53]OK. Lets's get things straight.
1) People who should have known better disposed of Qurans in the wrong way.
2) Predictable other people overreact.
3) Obama is smart enough to take steps to handle the situation by apologizing for stupid actions done by US troops.
4) Mostly right wing extremists decide to fuel the fire instead.

  

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 60):
we've done everything we could do modernize that country, and it didn't work

I disagree. While ISAF is doing pretty much all in its power to modernize/civilize Afghanistan, It is naive to think that it can be done in only 10 years. If we (the western world) really want to modernize the country it is likely going to take at least twice that.



Air New Zealand; first to fly the Boeing 787-9. ZK-NZE, NZ103 AKL-SYD, 2014/08/09. I was 83rd to board.
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13113 posts, RR: 12
Reply 69, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1662 times:

We have been in Afghanistan with military forces from about 3-4 weeks after the terror acts in the USA on 9/11/01 seeking massive revenge on their the government/tribes, generally referred to as the 'Taliban', the base of ops of 'al-Queda' that led the 9/11 and other terror acts against the world, killed many 1000's including too many innocents in a place we have little or no cultural understanding of.

The reaction of some Afghans toward the USA for the alleged burning of Korans by USA forces has been seen as a 'last straw' act, especially as seen by some Afghans as an insult as to Islam. They want the USA out and be left alone. All the USA is doing is just creating generations of more hate toward the USA from the Islamic world including more terror acts against the USA and our allies. We need to get out ASAP, even if it means China takes economic control of them. At least they won't send armies in, but instead engineers, to extract mineral wealth there they need for their economic needs.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9376 posts, RR: 29
Reply 70, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1651 times:

Quoting zkojq (Reply 68):
f we (the western world) really want to modernize the country it is likely going to take at least twice that.

or 50 or 500 or 700 years. You might as well predict the lottery numbers. Unless the religion goes through a phase of enlightenment things will stay as they are. If they want, forever. This is a complete waste of lives, money and ressources for all involved.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10735 posts, RR: 9
Reply 71, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1654 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 67):

Absolutely right. If I have ever supported the German participation there, this little support is gone by now. Afghanistan is no member of the civilized world, lets face it, and actually never has been. Fact is, its overly full of murderers, stone-age attitudes and chauvinistic blindness. Like stone-age muslims anywhere else they dont care for anyone helping them who is not muslim. Like so many stone-age muslims they act after the rule "better a bad muslim than a good christ". A generalization, yes, but thats whats always been at the bottom of this country.
And its not only soldiers, I would also suggest that much of the welfare $ going there should be transferred to more grateful countries in need. There are enough.


User currently offline757gb From Uruguay, joined Feb 2009, 676 posts, RR: 1
Reply 72, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1586 times:

Quoting geezer (Reply 56):
It takes too damn long to try to explain all this stuff, so I'm going to now go work on my art work.

Charley

It sure does but your post made fascinating reading. Sometimes I just can't spend the time required to read all the long posts but yours was definitely worth it. Thank you for such a clear description. I happen to agree with just about everything you said (knowing less on the topic I admit).

regards,
GB



God is The Alpha and The Omega. We come from God. We go towards God. What an Amazing Journey...
User currently offlineSomedayTrijet From China, joined Nov 2010, 140 posts, RR: 0
Reply 73, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1589 times:

As of the incident itself: Those Afghans involved in the protests overreacted greatly, from our perspective. But anyone with some common sense could have figured out that they would.

Naturally, those who come to the west will have to adapt to western values, however we doesn't seem to care about this when we go to Afghanistan. We, especially the U.S, seem to believe we have the right to act in whatever way we feel like in Afghanistan...

We came to Afghanistan for a mission. Now that we killed OBL, lets just get out of there, because right know we clearly are not accomplishing anything else. We have nothing to do there anymore. The people of Afghanistan clearly doesn't want to adapt to western values, so why should we force them? Its their choice which path they want to take. And we better respect that decision, as in not burning the Qur'an in public.

Quoting geezer (Reply 56):
Because there are damn near as many Muslims in Detroit as there are in all of Afghanistan ! ( And before anyone starts screaming about that statement being incorrect, I suggest you be prepared to point out the total populations of both places ! )

I'm sorry sir, but I actually believe that is incorrect. Afghanistan has a population of approximately 30 million, of which 99 percent are Muslims, so we have 29.7 million Muslims in Afghanistan.

The Metro Detroit area has a population of only 5.2 million people, and that includes people of all religions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demography_of_Afghanistan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit#Demographics


[Edited 2012-02-27 06:46:33]

[Edited 2012-02-27 06:47:00]

[Edited 2012-02-27 06:48:01]

Edited for spelling.


[Edited 2012-02-27 06:48:50]


Flown on: ATR72-5, Q300, E190, E195, A319/20/21, A332/3, 734/6/G/8, 744, 752/3, 763ER, 772ER/LR
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8841 posts, RR: 24
Reply 74, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1576 times:

Well, here we we have the result. A few days after Obama's apology for burning a few books (and Karzai's lack of apology for murdering our troops), here is Karzai's official response : Put U.S. Troops on Trial and Punish Them.

Quote:
Karzai, according to a BBC translation of his remarks made Sunday, told the Afghan people he was speaking to them after discussing the matter with “jihadi leaders,” “prominent scholars,” and Afghan elected officials, and that he spoke for the “pure sentiments” of the “Afghan nation” and the “Islamic world,” when he said: “We call on the US government to bring the perpetrators of the act to justice and put them on trial and punish them.”

At the same time Karzai was demanding the prosecution and punishment of U.S. troops involved in the Koran-burning incident, he conceded that the U.S. government had indicated that the Koran burning “was not deliberate.”

"We all know that regrettably some days ago an American soldier burnt our Holy Koran,” Karzai said, according to the BBC translation. “We condemn this vicious act in the strongest terms. The government and the people, scholars, tribal dignitaries, spiritual figures of Afghanistan, the educated people of our country all share the people's feelings... Our people's sensitiveness is right and is laudable.”

"The US government says that such act was carried out because of ignorance and lack of knowledge,” Karzai said. “This incident happened as a result of the ignorance of the US military officer about our vision about Islam and not recognizing the Koran. It was not deliberate."

"Today,” Karzai said, “we had a detailed session attended by jihadi leaders, prominent scholars, speakers of both houses--the lower house and the senate--the esteemed chief justice, vice presidents and other dignitaries and our government. We discussed the matter of the burning of the Holy Koran. Representing the Afghan nation and their pure sentiments, in fact the Islamic world, once again we call on the US government to bring the perpetrators of the act to justice and put them on trial and punish them."

While lauding the Afghan people for the “sensitiveness” to the Koran burning, and calling for the prosecution and punishment of the U.S. military personnel involved, Karzai appealed to Afghans to calm down and allow the Afghan and U.S. governments to move “pursue the matter.”

"We should all try to calm down and by calming down we should not allow the enemies of security and peace and progress of the people of Afghanistan to misuse or hurt our people's property or our people's lives by using the people's sensitiveness,” said Karzai. “We hope our people will be calm and develop the country. They should be sure that the government of Afghanistan and all its institutions will pursue the matter and we and the US government will pursue the matter."
http://cnsnews.com/news/article/karz...ut-us-troops-trial-and-punish-them

NOT ONE DAMNED WORD about trying and punishing the bastards who killed people over a damned book.

If anyone had any hope left that Afghans could in some way act in a civilized fashion, I think this puts it to rest. F... 'em.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineCASINTEREST From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4623 posts, RR: 2
Reply 75, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1539 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 74):
NOT ONE DAMNED WORD about trying and punishing the bastards who killed people over a damned book.

It's sad/funny 10+ years on to see myself proven correct amongs my friends and family about Afghanistan. I agreed with the invasion, but I said we needed to accomplish the mission and get out. My Argument was even more emphatic for Iraq, but still same problems. This is a culture that needs to decide for itself what it wants to do.

This is also the reason why the US needed to let the Arab Spring take place, even if it was against our best interests.
The US was founded amongs other things, on a principal of self determination We cannot drag Afghanistan into the Western world. It is for Afghanistan to determine it's own course. Should it's own course interfere with other countries, then we can revisit Afghanistan for the repurcussions.

Further nation building by the US is not warrented or recommended.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinestasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3283 posts, RR: 6
Reply 76, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1483 times:

Quoting CASINTEREST (Reply 75):
Further nation building by the US is not warrented or recommended.

  

Can the West get to the point where we commercially mine and extract the rare earth minerals we need from Afghanistan (before the Chinese manage to do that instead of us), helping them to build a modern economy (ie an economy not based on opium), and get the hell outta all of the 'Stans before anything even more tragic happens. We need to leave them to their own devices.



"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1833 posts, RR: 10
Reply 77, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1487 times:

Quoting SomedayTrijet (Reply 73):

Quoting geezer (Reply 56):
Because there are damn near as many Muslims in Detroit as there are in all of Afghanistan ! ( And before anyone starts screaming about that statement being incorrect, I suggest you be prepared to point out the total populations of both places ! )

I'm sorry sir, but I actually believe that is incorrect. Afghanistan has a population of approximately 30 million, of which 99 percent are Muslims, so we have 29.7 million Muslims in Afghanistan.

The Metro Detroit area has a population of only 5.2 million people, and that includes people of all religions.

Most of the Muslims in Michigan live outside of Detroit. The show All-American Muslim is set in Dearborn.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 74):
NOT ONE DAMNED WORD about trying and punishing the bastards who killed people over a damned book.

So first you say that they should "build a wall around them and let them rot", but now you actually care about their judicial system?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 74):
If anyone had any hope left that Afghans could in some way act in a civilized fashion, I think this puts it to rest. F... 'em.

Putting as much effort as you do into hating anyone must have serious ramifications on your health...

Quoting CASINTEREST (Reply 75):
This is also the reason why the US needed to let the Arab Spring take place, even if it was against our best interests.

How was it against your best interests? (I'm also not sure if you are referring to the entire Arab Spring, or just one of the countries)

Quoting CASINTEREST (Reply 75):
The US was founded amongs other things, on a principal of self determination We cannot drag Afghanistan into the Western world. It is for Afghanistan to determine it's own course. Should it's own course interfere with other countries, then we can revisit Afghanistan for the repurcussions.

Further nation building by the US is not warrented or recommended.

Agreed. Time to focus on paying off all that debt to China.



Flying refined.
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2725 posts, RR: 8
Reply 78, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1479 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 74):
If anyone had any hope left that Afghans could in some way act in a civilized fashion, I think this puts it to rest. F... 'em.




Never had a doubt that they would not pull themselves out of the stone-age. More wasting of our hard earned money.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19699 posts, RR: 58
Reply 79, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1461 times:

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 59):

The reality will take place when the United States military is no longer a presence in Afghanistan - and a Afghan civil war happens - any Afghan citizen was any sense will leave their country for the Opium traffickers and warloads before the US military completely withdrawls. The place is a complete dung hole and Bush should have never invaded Afghanistan - and Obama should have never supported the CIA war there - when all we needed to do was blow up a house in Pakistan where OBL was holed up - thanks to the Pakistani ISI.

Wait. OBL was in Afghanistan. If we hadn't invaded, he'd still be there.

Afghanistan was the country we SHOULD have invaded first, not Iraq. That was the country that launched the 9/11 attacks. The Taliban was very supportive of AQ in that respect.


User currently offlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1214 posts, RR: 1
Reply 80, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1419 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 70):
or 50 or 500 or 700 years. You might as well predict the lottery numbers. Unless the religion goes through a phase of enlightenment things will stay as they are. If they want, forever. This is a complete waste of lives, money and ressources for all involved.
Quoting SomedayTrijet (Reply 73):
As of the incident itself: Those Afghans involved in the protests overreacted greatly, from our perspective.

While I agree, it is my opinion that the protests are probably just as much a venting of anger at ISAF than specific retaliation for the burning of the Korans. Tensions among the Afghans have been building up for a long time.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 74):
NOT ONE DAMNED WORD about trying and punishing the bastards who killed people over a damned book.
If anyone had any hope left that Afghans could in some way act in a civilized fashion, I think this puts it to rest. F... 'em.

Despite the fact that the elections are manipulated, like any politician, Mr Karzai has to pander to public/popular opinion. In the meantime, Afghan authorities have launched a manhunt for the suspected killer.
www.todayonline.com/World/EDC120227-...or-suspected-killer-of-US-advisers
I'm not trying to defend Mr Karzai, BTW. The difference between him and any Taliban leader, while small to begin with, is diminishing at a worrying pace.   



Air New Zealand; first to fly the Boeing 787-9. ZK-NZE, NZ103 AKL-SYD, 2014/08/09. I was 83rd to board.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15742 posts, RR: 27
Reply 81, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1405 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 79):
OBL was in Afghanistan. If we hadn't invaded, he'd still be there.

   The only reason he went to Pakistan was because we chased him there in December 2001. It was painful how close we actually got to getting him back then.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3474 posts, RR: 17
Reply 82, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 1308 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting windy95 (Reply 78):
ever had a doubt that they would not pull themselves out of the stone-age. More wasting of our hard earned money.

Lets send the money to Israel instead so they can kill more Palestinians or throw them out of there homes and land.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14026 posts, RR: 62
Reply 83, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 1301 times:

No matter that nobody cries if the Taliban burn a mosque and destroy Q´ran books when they go on rampage against those Muslim groups they don´t consider "proper" Muslims, everybody involved with the current conflicts knows how easy it is for the Taliban to use an incident like this to stirr up unrest.
It would have been so easy for the troops involved to ask a Muslim representative of the military chaplain corps (after all there are Muslims serving in the American forces, if not there, just ask the British, who have muslim soldiers in their ranks) how best to deal with those books without causing trouble. Else, just ask a local Imam.
Why give the Taliban a huge propaganda victory and make it more difficult for the other soldiers?

I frankly don´t understand the attitude of certain American soldiers to provoke trouble just for the hell of it (remember the Marines, who p#ssed on the dead Taliban and, even worse, took pictures of the act?).

Jan


User currently offlinestasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3283 posts, RR: 6
Reply 84, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 1276 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 79):
Wait. OBL was in Afghanistan. If we hadn't invaded, he'd still be there.
OBL was skipping back and forth across the border between Pakistan and Afghanistan all the time, with lots of help from the Pakistani ISI. The radical muslims in the Pakistan military and intelligence services hid OBL under their skirts, to milk the US government for money, and the US military for high-tech arms. Recent events (including the news that OBL was living in a mansion near the "West Point" of Pakistan) has done extreme damage to the US-Pakistan relationship - all because of Pakistan's deep-seated need (paranoia?) to controil a weak Afghanistan in a game of regional one-upsmanship with India.

Now, there are rumors that the CIA drone attacks on (incorrect) civilian targets was based on (perhaps intentionally-wrong) Pakistani ISI intelligence, done to fuel the fires of anti-Americanism inside Afghanistan and Pakistan. Pakistan is the "puppet master" of the Taliban, and the sooner Americans realize this fact, the faster the US military withdrawl from Afghanistan. The current and the past US administrations are BOTH hiding the depth of Pakistan's involvement in the Afghan war - for their own profit and strategic purposes.

Source: http://www.thehindu.com/news/international/article2929240.ece

[Edited 2012-02-28 14:07:33]


"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlineCASINTEREST From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4623 posts, RR: 2
Reply 85, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1193 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 77):
How was it against your best interests? (I'm also not sure if you are referring to the entire Arab Spring, or just one of the countries)

"Even if" is the key phrase. There are some countries where from a political and even economics view, the US was better off with the dictators in power.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1833 posts, RR: 10
Reply 86, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1183 times:

Quoting CASINTEREST (Reply 85):
"Even if" is the key phrase. There are some countries where from a political and even economics view, the US was better off with the dictators in power.

Ah I see where you're coming from now, and I unfortunately agree.



Flying refined.
User currently offlinestealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5696 posts, RR: 44
Reply 87, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 923 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

There seem some that are of the opinion that the US and other Western nations are always in the wrong and despite admitting and apologising for mistakes(in this case allegedlely desecrating korans that had already been desecrated by terrorists) any violence towards them is justified and to be applauded.

Today we have reports of Commonwealth War graves in Libya being desecrated and vandalised by some in the local population ... would it be right for local residents in Canberra, London, Ottawa and Wellington to fire bomb the Libyan embassies?

By the standards of aggrieved "muslims" around the world ..seems to me it would be OK

If I decided the Libyan mission in Sydney or Canberra was fair game I could expect a heavily armed cadre of Aus Fed and NSW police trying to stop me .. A judicial system that would see me doing hard time for a long time .. yet the Muslim world consider themselves above that.. I just don't get it!!



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1214 posts, RR: 1
Reply 88, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 901 times:

Quoting stealthz (Reply 87):
Today we have reports of Commonwealth War graves in Libya being desecrated and vandalised by some in the local population ... would it be right for local residents in Canberra, London, Ottawa and Wellington to fire bomb the Libyan embassies?

I saw something about that on the news tonight. Absolutely sickening. I hope that those who are hateful enough to do such things pay dearly for it.

Quoting stealthz (Reply 87):
By the standards of aggrieved "muslims" around the world ..seems to me it would be OK

The whole idea behind being civilized is being above that. Acting maturely and rationally rather than retaliating out of anger, even if they deserve it.



Air New Zealand; first to fly the Boeing 787-9. ZK-NZE, NZ103 AKL-SYD, 2014/08/09. I was 83rd to board.
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2725 posts, RR: 8
Reply 89, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 864 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 79):
Afghanistan was the country we SHOULD have invaded first, not Iraq. That was the country that launched the 9/11 attacks. The Taliban was very supportive of AQ in that respect.

Ummm...We did invade Afghanistan first.. 
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 82):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 78):
ever had a doubt that they would not pull themselves out of the stone-age. More wasting of our hard earned money.


Lets send the money to Israel instead so they can kill more Palestinians or throw them out of there homes and land

Yes because the peace loving Arabs have been a very gracious host for the Israelis since 1947.  



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3474 posts, RR: 17
Reply 90, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 839 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting windy95 (Reply 89):
Yes because the peace loving Arabs have been a very gracious host for the Israelis since 1947.

Wow, since when does a land thief became a guest?



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15742 posts, RR: 27
Reply 91, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 837 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 89):
Yes because the peace loving Arabs have been a very gracious host for the Israelis since 1947.

What sort of guests do you have over at your house?

You probably have a nice house right? Well I have these friends of mine who have fallen on hard times and lost their house. I think I'm going to have them stay over at your place. Don't worry, they only need half of your bedrooms and one full bath and you can even keep the kitchen, garage and the basement. You won't mind will you? (That's just a courtesy, you don't get a choice. They'll arrive in a few days.)

[Edited 2012-03-05 13:52:15]


Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
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