Sponsor Message:
Non Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Costa Allegra Going Adrift Near The Seychelles  
User currently offline777 From Italy, joined Sep 2005, 514 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2656 times:

Just seen on the Italian news website "Corriere della Sera"...

Due to a fire onboard (now estinguished without consequences for the passengers and the crew) the Costa Allegra has stopped the engines and is now going adrift 260 NM out of the Seychelles!

Are we maybe watching "live" the end of a brand (Costa)?

Link in Italian
http://www.corriere.it/cronache/12_f...-6150-11e1-8325-a685c67602ce.shtml

[Edited 2012-02-27 07:12:13]

[Edited 2012-02-27 07:16:49]

39 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 2942 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2637 times:

Quoting 777 (Thread starter):
Are we maybe watching "live" the end of a brand (Costa)?

It will take more than a grounded ship and a fire on-board another one to finish off a brand. Did we see the end of AA back in 2001 when 3 airplanes were lost that year alone (and another almost, but foiled)?

Carnival also had a couple of problems. Remember Carnival Splendor back in 2010? Carnival Destiny also ran out of power once in the Caribbean as well.

What Costa should focus on is to assess the condition of its fleet, retrain its staff to handle situations better, etc. But certainly, Costa is a well established brand and Carnival Corp. will not let it go away just because of the bad judgment of one captain and an accident in another ship.



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8780 posts, RR: 24
Reply 2, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2590 times:

I took a cruise on Costa back in 1980 and I found it fantastic - wonderful memories of that cruise. It's sad to see that they have let their standards slip.


Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9097 posts, RR: 29
Reply 3, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2578 times:

The worrying part of the message is, that the ship is "adrift", without power. That is only OK as long as there's enough water under the keel and the weather is fine.

The other part that is worrying is the region they are in, if pirates get the news they'll flock in by the hundreds.

So, the engineers should get power back as quick as possible and some Navy ships as well as tug boats should be on the way.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offline777 From Italy, joined Sep 2005, 514 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2574 times:

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 1):
It will take more than a grounded ship and a fire on-board another one to finish off a brand.

I really hope you are right!


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10864 posts, RR: 38
Reply 5, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2562 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 3):
if pirates get the news they'll flock in by the hundreds.

I thought of that too when I heard of the fire on board with the ship drifting away.
Pirates are now equipped with the latest state-of-the-art equipment.

I hope the captain hasn't jumped ship this time and the engines can be re-started asap.

http://www.costacrociere.it/B2C/I/Default.htm

Tried looking up the ship's webcams but they stopped transmitting.




 Wow!

[Edited 2012-02-27 08:17:34]


There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9097 posts, RR: 29
Reply 6, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2544 times:

Assistance is under way and wind is 4, which is moderate. The ship drifts near Alphonse Island, which belongs to the Seychelles.. A life vest and boat drill would be a splendit idea right now.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 5):

I hope the captain hasn't jumped ship this time and the engines can be re-started asap.

Even Schettino would not have done that in the open waters of the Indian Ocean.

 



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinedc9northwest From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 2262 posts, RR: 7
Reply 7, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2498 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 5):
I hope the captain hasn't jumped ship this time and the engines can be re-started asap.
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 6):
Even Schettino would not have done that in the open waters of the Indian Ocean.

Schettino didn't jump ship, he "tripped" and "fell [conveniently] into a life boat". Poor guy. I feel so very sorry for him, tripping at that exact crucial moment!

As for this incident, let's hope Cap'n Johnny Depp and company don't arrive for a bit of the old plundering and looting.


User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3712 posts, RR: 11
Reply 8, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2450 times:

I really doubt pirates would attack such a target.

The conscequences would be too great. They'd end up with the Navies from half the planet on their behinds. And god forbid there were any Russian or Chinese nationals on board...

I don't think they're that stupid ...then again.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10864 posts, RR: 38
Reply 9, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2374 times:

The BBC has an updated article with a picture of the Costa Allegra

Quote
The closest vessel to the ship - a French fishing boat - is likely to reach the Allegra at around 2300 GMT, ahead of the tug boats.
A plane from the Seychelles flew over the cruise ship and confirmed that there was "no danger for the people on board," according to Commander Cosimo Nicastro of the Italian coast guard.
Cmdr Nicastro told the BBC that it took the crew a few hours to extinguish the fire.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-17183134

I hope there will be no storms out there in the Indian Ocean and all passengers on board can be kept safe.
Also I hope the ship will be able to go to the next port on her own engines.

There's some really bad luck for Costa Crociere.

 Wow!



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26794 posts, RR: 58
Reply 10, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2369 times:

Just off a 9 night cruise with NCL which was lovely. Safety drills for passengers same day of boarding in Barcelona and Malaga. Q&A with the Finnish Captain touched on the Concordia issue although of course he was very careful with his words but some information was interesting.

I personally would not book a cruise with Costa again . They didn't over impress me the two times I was on their ships. MSC was another one I wouldn't book on either. The food was awful.

There is no doubt Costa has been tarnished but I doubt it will bring them down. This incident today is rather unlucky for them as anything to do with Costa will hit the press no matter how small.


User currently offlineME AVN FAN From Switzerland, joined May 2002, 13920 posts, RR: 25
Reply 11, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2263 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
I took a cruise on Costa back in 1980 and I found it fantastic - wonderful memories of that cruise. It's sad to see that they have let their standards slip.

-
I don't know whether they have let their standards slip. In case of the Concordia, some things went wrong and the captain added mistakes to his previous mistakes. And the new thing sound like a technical problem of the kind which of course can happen.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 3):
The other part that is worrying is the region they are in, if pirates get the news

-
News have it that two units of the Seychelles Coast Guard have gone to the place to look for the safety of the cruise-ship
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Images/Trinkat1.jpg


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19278 posts, RR: 58
Reply 12, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2243 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 8):
I really doubt pirates would attack such a target.

The conscequences would be too great.

They've attacked a Spanish warship (and got their arses handed to them for their trouble).

The reason why they might not take this ship is because they have no way to bring it to their port. A disabled ship is of little use to them at that distance from port.


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10864 posts, RR: 38
Reply 13, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2155 times:

Costa Allegra was met by a French fishing vessel and being towed. The ship and passengers are now in good hands.

The story in French.
http://fr.news.yahoo.com/costa-alleg...au-large-syechelles-045217669.html

BBC News article in English
Italian cruise ship adrift off Seychelles taken in tow

A French fishing vessel is taking the Costa Allegra to a nearby island where passengers will be disembarked before being transferred to the Seychelles.
....
the ship is being towed to the Desroches island, near Alphonse island, south-west of the Seychelles.

Once there the passengers will be disembarked to the one hotel on the island, and then await transfer to the main Seychelles island of Mahe.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-17186829

Does this mean the Costa Allegra engines were made inoperant by the fire?

 



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9097 posts, RR: 29
Reply 14, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2148 times:

That's the logic explanation, Madame. Either the engine or the generator or both are destroyed by the fire and cannot be fixed with board equipment / ressources. That nmeans there is no electricity which means nothing works, not even the toilets.

That island has a landing strip which can handle the Twin Otters and it will take over 30 flights just to evacuate the passengers. . Looks like the passengers are in for some fun.

Good business for Air Seychelles.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10864 posts, RR: 38
Reply 15, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2138 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 14):
Either the engine or the generator or both are destroyed by the fire and cannot be fixed with board equipment / ressources. That nmeans there is no electricity which means nothing works, not even the toilets.

The French article provides a lot of details as to the situation on board.
This is a rough English translation.

"The ship is adrift, there is no propulsion, but no incident was reported on board", confirmed the Commander Moretti. "A fire broke out in the morning (from Monday)". "Firefighters quickly extinguished it, but damaged the generators," he said.

According to Commander Moretti, the ship has with its battery of emergency electricity to run just the lights on, but has no air conditioning, kitchens are closed and propellers out of order.

While the Commander of the vessel raised the maximum alert, passengers have been grouped on the upper decks of the ship. "It provides bread, water." "The situation is quiet", he said. Mr. Moretti, a helicopter will bring Tuesday morning of fresh food to people on the ship, and the means of communication, as they are blocked, except an emergency with Captain satellite link.

Several vessels, merchant vessels and fishing were expected during the night in the area where the Costa Allegra was drifting.

All is well. A French fishing trawler went out to Costa Allegra's rescue and is towing Costa Allegra. They are now in good hands.



  



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9097 posts, RR: 29
Reply 16, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2121 times:

Nice article. As mentioned before, about the worst that can happen on a ship is a fire and having no power comes very close to that. They are lucky that winds are moderate, although 4 is a bit choppy already. Amazing that except for the emergeny power they have nothing. If the wind was blowing a bit heavier and the sea rougher the passengers would be sitting in the boats already. I would not want to be on a ship that size that has no rudder

They better get more assistance than that trawler PDQ



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9097 posts, RR: 29
Reply 17, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2064 times:

some updates - the trawler towes the ship at a "speed" of 2-3 knots whoich is walking speed. They will go to the main island as the infrastructure at that small island is totally inadequate.

Weather is freshing up with wind at 6 now Not very comfortable at all More ships are under way and aircraft/helicopters are monitoring the area. The Indian navy seems to be involved and they care less about pirates than the Europeans.

.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10864 posts, RR: 38
Reply 18, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2059 times:

Latest details in this article in Le Figaro
http://www.lefigaro.fr/international...derive-au-large-des-seychelles.php

A rough English translation with some of the new information

French trawler, the Trévignon, owned by the French company of Ocean tuna, arrived on site Tuesday morning at 2: 40 p.m. to take in tow the giant and take him to the capital of the Seychelles, Mahe.
It was intended at first to reach the small nearby island of Desroches, but Costa Cruises finally found that it "does not guarantee the necessary and adequate security conditions for the arrival of the vessel and the landing of passengers. Island infrastructure would only be able to host temporarily the 636 passengers, including about 130 French, accompanied by 413 crew.

Two tugs will be sent to assist the trawler to increase the speed. Weather conditions are favourable for the time being and towing operations go well, said the owner of the trawler.. A second tuna trawler, the Talenduic, belonging to the same owner, was also sent Tuesday morning toward the cruise ship, according to the operational regional Centre of emergency and rescue (Cross) in La Réunion. He did not specify if this boat was part of the two reinforcements announced by Costa or whether it was a fourth boat.

An Indian aircraft escorted the ship, alternating with a Seychelles aircraft, to prevent the threat of Somali pirates. It unveiled Tuesday the first images of the boat in distress:

(see the video on the link)



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13941 posts, RR: 63
Reply 19, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2050 times:

You have to remember, that while they are defintely not salvage tugs with powerful engines, the trawlers are no small ships themselves. They are big longrange trawlers and not the small coastal fishing vessels we usually see in our ports.

Jan

[Edited 2012-02-28 05:12:51]

User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9097 posts, RR: 29
Reply 20, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2031 times:

The trawler is about 90 meters, but Captain Igloo does not have the horsepower that is needed to tow a cruise ship 2 or 3 times the size (at least).

By the time it takes to tow the vessel to Mahe, they might have the spare parts ready delivered by helicopter, if it can be repaired while at sea.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13941 posts, RR: 63
Reply 21, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2028 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 20):
The trawler is about 90 meters, but Captain Igloo does not have the horsepower that is needed to tow a cruise ship 2 or 3 times the size (at least).

But it can keep the cruise ship´s bow facing the wind and waves (thus preventing her from capsizing) and it can keep it away from drifting into reefs or islands.

Jan


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26794 posts, RR: 58
Reply 22, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2024 times:

Bit of a bad coincidence for one family :

Costa Cruise Mum Speaks Of Anguish

A mother has been speaking of her anguish after another of her children was caught in a life-threatening incident on a Costa cruise liner - this time in the Indian Ocean.

http://news.sky.com/home/video/16178663


User currently offlineBongodog1964 From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2006, 3527 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 2013 times:

Am I alone in questioning the lack of system redundancy in these modern ships ? I'm sure there was a time when a ship of this size would have had at least two separate self contained bolier and engine rooms, in order that it could continue to function in the event of a large failure or even flooding. If not two separate engine rooms, at least a second way of generating power.

We now have one ship which foundered due to hitting an underground rock, where some migt have expected that sufficient watertight sections would have kept her afloat, and another where one fore takes out the entire electical capacity.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9097 posts, RR: 29
Reply 24, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 1983 times:

That vessel was not really new, actually it is a re-build former container ship.

Redundancy - well, you usually have one large Diesel and one drive shaft that brings the power to the propellor. There are emergeny power units and if there is an electric fire you might not even have the cables to supply that mergency power. Looks like this is what happened here. Of sh*t happens, it happens in a remote place and they were even lucky, LikeJan says:



Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 21):
But it can keep the cruise ship´s bow facing the wind and waves

if that trawler or another ship large enough to take over had not been near the vessel could have capsized in stormy weather.

This is a small one, but the large ships that carry 4000 to 7000 passengers and crew and oif they get the elements wind and water in combination from the side while drifting they have little chance to survive that.

Fortunately, these monsters usually ply the Carribbean where help is near and available.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineEY460 From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 268 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2055 times:

Let's not forget that Costa Allegra is an older ship, a container ship build in the late 60s and converted in the 90s into a cruise ship. The tendency in recent years about marine safety is "safe return to port" which means the duplication of all important machinery and equipment.

The problem with all diesel-electric ships is that once you loose the generators (or in this case the main switchboard) you loose electrical power and therefore propulsion, air conditioning, toilets, running water, power to the galleys, etc. Conditions on board become very difficult.

No problems with pirates. Most Italian flagged ships are carried armed navy soldier when transiting in dangerous waters.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13941 posts, RR: 63
Reply 26, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 2045 times:

As seen here (and almost in the case of the other Costa cruise ship), these cruise ships get so big that in more remote areas, the locals can easily be overwhelmed by the amount of passengers and crew they have to rescue.
This is still a cruise ship of moderate size. Can you imagine one of the monsters getting into trouble and having to be helped by the coast guard of a small, poor country?

Jan


User currently offlineDano1977 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Jun 2008, 481 posts, RR: 0
Reply 27, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1931 times:

Quoting EY460 (Reply 25):

Let's not forget that Costa Allegra is an older ship, a container ship build in the late 60s and converted in the 90s into a cruise ship.

That's why it looks so damn ugly.


I was reading on the BBC news page last night, and they said due to the location of the cruise it had armed security guards (in the form of Italian Marines).



Children should only be allowed on aircraft if 1. Muzzled and heavily sedated 2. Go as freight
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10864 posts, RR: 38
Reply 28, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1736 times:

According to an article from France 24 Costa Allegra has arrived in the port of Mahé, Seychelles.

Translation:
Deprived of engines and electricity after a fire struck on Monday in the open Indian Ocean, the cruise ship Costa Allegra, property of Costa Cruises, docked Thursday in the port of the capital of Seychelles after having been escorted to Mahé

There is a video on the page, with the ship in port with passengers/crew waving from the port holes and a line up of airplanes ready to repatriate passengers to Europe.

http://www.france24.com/fr/20120301-...ndie-costa-croisieres-ocean-indien

Article in English

Disabled cruise ship arrives in Seychelles port

VICTORIA, Seychelles (AP) — A disabled cruise ship docked in the island nation of the Seychelles Thursday after three days at sea without power. Dozens of officials flocked to the port to help passengers, some of whom applauded as the Costa Allegra neared shore.

The Seychelles Red Cross set up tents to assist any passengers needing medical help and embassy and consular officials were at the port to receive their citizens. Tour operators lined up dozens of buses to take passengers to either the airport or a Seychelles resort. Disembarkation of the more than 1,000 people onboard was expected to take several hours.

http://news.yahoo.com/disabled-cruis...ves-seychelles-port-055412360.html


  

Costa cruises will be heavily discounted after this... that is if they still want to have passengers on their ships.

[Edited 2012-03-01 02:33:40]


There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19278 posts, RR: 58
Reply 29, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 1598 times:

I wonder why, after a few of these sorts of incidents, ships don't have backup generators physically isolated from the engine room with enough reserve fuel for 24 hours of electricity. A few aviation-style APU's would do the trick without taking up too much space.

If you're hauling 3-5,000 people around in a ship, it seems like a pretty reasonable precaution to me.


User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13478 posts, RR: 62
Reply 30, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1557 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):
A few aviation-style APU's would do the trick without taking up too much space.

Those APUs are turbine engines in and of themselves, though - I'd imagine the engineering space may be an issue, although I doubt there's much in the way of a weight penalty like with aircraft.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineEY460 From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 268 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 1531 times:

The new regulation is moving towards that: ensuring that a "minor" incident does not cripples a large cruise ship. The fire on the Costa Allegra was not large and it was quickly extinguished but it damaged some vital components of the vessel. The link below explains very well these new regulations called "Safe Return to Port".

http://www.skibstekniskselskab.dk/pu...10%20safe%20return%20to%20port.pdf

These are some interesting points:
- Cruise ship are getting larger and larger and carry more people. The most important point of the new regulation is to improve the vessel survivability as "a ship is its own best lifeboat",
- A casualty threshold is introduced by the regulation. Below this threshold all essential systems should remain in operation,
- Essential systems includes propulsion, steering, fuel transfer, fire-fighting systems, navigation systems but also basic services to support Safe Areas (Toilet system, potable water, galleys, lighting, air conditioning, etc.);
- A safe area is an area outside the damaged area which can safely accommodate all persons on board and provide them with basic services (sanitation, water and food, shelter from the weather, light and ventilation).


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10864 posts, RR: 38
Reply 32, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1514 times:

Costa Crociere are not all clear.
I was looking in La Stampa, could not find the article but I have got an English version.

Sex, drugs claims in cruise ship disaster

LEAKED documents from a probe into the Costa Concordia disaster contain allegations that officers were seen snorting cocaine and getting drunk on two of the operator's ships, newspaper La Stampa reports.

"The officers and crew were very often drunk," a former employee who worked on the Costa Concordia for two months in 2010 before quitting, said in one testimony published by the paper, which could not be independently verified.

"We often asked ourselves at parties: 'Who would save the ship if there was an emergency?'," she said.

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/wor...aster/story-e6frf7lf-1226286691442

uuhhh.... only two ships??

 Wow!

Considering all the bad publicity they get from these repeated accidents/incidents they will have to heavily discount their cruises if they want to have passengers on board their ships.



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8162 posts, RR: 8
Reply 33, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 1428 times:

Quoting EY460 (Reply 25):
The problem with all diesel-electric ships is that once you loose the generators (or in this case the main switchboard) you loose electrical power and therefore propulsion, air conditioning, toilets, running water, power to the galleys, etc. Conditions on board become very difficult.

I'm not an engineer (clearly) but I find it very difficult to believe that these ships cannot have back up emergency systems in place - and frequently tested. When I was on the LONG BEACH our primary power was nuclear. But we had emergency generators and they were frequently tested.

With a ship full of passengers it is critical that there be water supplies for the toilets as a basic health concern. It's also critical that some areas, like communications areas and medical areas be provided electricity. There will also be a need to provide electricity to pax who depend on medical equipment.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 29):

I wonder why, after a few of these sorts of incidents, ships don't have backup generators physically isolated from the engine room with enough reserve fuel for 24 hours of electricity

It looks to me that the bean counters override the engineers. It also looks like we need to start reviewing standards, with the bean counters left out of the discussions.


And I believe that we need to start publishing the engineering standards of cruise ships, especially in the area of redundancy.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19278 posts, RR: 58
Reply 34, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 10 hours ago) and read 1407 times:

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 30):
Those APUs are turbine engines in and of themselves, though - I'd imagine the engineering space may be an issue, although I doubt there's much in the way of a weight penalty like with aircraft.

Generally, a turbine that can generate a given power output will be smaller and lighter than the internal combustion engine that makes the same power output. The efficiency (fuel per watt) may be a bit worse with the turbine.

Either way, ships really need APU's that are physically isolated from other power generation equipment to serve as a back-up. Whether those APU's are turbine, pistons, or hamsters running on wheels is less important.

Being adrift is bad. Being adrift without any onboard power and thousands of people aboard is far worse.


User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2838 posts, RR: 12
Reply 35, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1384 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 33):
I'm not an engineer (clearly) but I find it very difficult to believe that these ships cannot have back up emergency systems in place - and frequently tested. When I was on the LONG BEACH our primary power was nuclear. But we had emergency generators and they were frequently tested.

I don't disagree with your post about the criticality of water and power on these ships, but I'd venture a guess that on a warship the number of people on board trained to deal with similar issues faced by the cruise ships is much higher. With the size of the crew and what the cruise companies are selling, most of the crew on a cruise ship aren't technicians their customer service people.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 32):
LEAKED documents from a probe into the Costa Concordia disaster contain allegations that officers were seen snorting cocaine and getting drunk on two of the operator's ships, newspaper La Stampa reports.

Two disgruntled ex-employees, and the claims of one couldn't be independently verified.

Quoting EY460 (Reply 31):
- Essential systems includes propulsion, steering, fuel transfer, fire-fighting systems, navigation systems but also basic services to support Safe Areas (Toilet system, potable water, galleys, lighting, air conditioning, etc.);

Seems like this one would have made a big difference in this case. One has to laugh about how soft we've become though. A 150 years ago you'd have had to take a sailing ship from England around Africa through this very same region to get to India without air conditioning. A trip that would have taken months. A few days on a cruise ship without power and people thought the end of the world was upon them because they didn't have AC, electricity or flushing toilets. Uncomfortable sure, an inconvenience because it was supposed to be a pleasure trip, but not life or death.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19278 posts, RR: 58
Reply 36, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1384 times:

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 35):
Seems like this one would have made a big difference in this case. One has to laugh about how soft we've become though. A 150 years ago you'd have had to take a sailing ship from England around Africa through this very same region to get to India without air conditioning. A trip that would have taken months. A few days on a cruise ship without power and people thought the end of the world was upon them because they didn't have AC, electricity or flushing toilets.

Those sailing ships were DESIGNED to operate without electricity. They were made of wood and had a lot of air circulation. People did their business overboard, too. They didn't carry thousands of people and often people would die of scurvy on the voyages.

Not a fair comparison at all.


User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2838 posts, RR: 12
Reply 37, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1361 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 36):

Those sailing ships were DESIGNED to operate without electricity. They were made of wood and had a lot of air circulation. People did their business overboard, too. They didn't carry thousands of people and often people would die of scurvy on the voyages.

I think if you ever spent any time below decks on a wooden sailing ship in the summer you might revisit that assessment. Most people on sailing ships spent their days above decks if they could because of the limited air circulation. And, nobody on this ship was going to die of scurvy, you know that Doc. It was only 3 days or so.

I'll give you that It is unfair to compare the sanitary conditions. Should be some interesting stories coming from that experience. I wouldn't want to swim in the pool anytime soon. Here the people on holiday at least had bottled water and weren't drinking out of barrels of water and eating salt pork that may be over a year old.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8162 posts, RR: 8
Reply 38, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 1338 times:

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 35):
but I'd venture a guess that on a warship the number of people on board trained to deal with similar issues faced by the cruise ships is much higher.

I believe that the basic Navy ship in the 60s had a pretty close ratio in the engineering spaces. (Nuke spaces are different) There are, of course, support staff in Supply, Admin and Medical. Otherwise the bulk of personnel will be in weapons and operations (which includes radar in CIC) and Navigation for the military operations of the ships. When we had fires we went to General Quarters to allow Damage Control to do their thing (and they were exceptional).

That compares with cruse ships that have entertainment and Pax services (and Casinos) in place of Weapons Departments.


User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2838 posts, RR: 12
Reply 39, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 1334 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 38):
That compares with cruse ships that have entertainment and Pax services (and Casinos) in place of Weapons Departments.

I'm not really arguing with you because you were at sea. I guess I'd just say that everyone on board a warship is trained specifically for the tasks that a warship performs, which could result in a catastrophic event (like the Forrestal fire) onboard. Even cooks on a warship have a battle station. Cruise ships have stage performers, waiters, bartenders, etc. who wouldn't be nearly as proficient at damage control/evacuation in the event of a catastrophic event as a seaman would.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Five-word Story #1 - Keep The Story Going! posted Thu Dec 2 2010 02:02:09 by jasp25
Anyone Going To The Luxury Travel Expo? posted Mon Nov 15 2010 11:30:01 by VintageTravel
Anyone Else Going To Discovery's Last Launch? posted Tue Nov 2 2010 08:04:51 by dxing
What's Going On With Rand Paul? posted Fri May 21 2010 15:13:36 by Ken777
Anyone Going To The Chino Airshow This Weekend? posted Fri May 14 2010 06:48:14 by Braniff747SP
Yanks Going Overseas For Medical Care posted Mon Apr 26 2010 07:38:13 by Ken777
Tea Partiers Now Going After Lindsey Graham posted Fri Apr 23 2010 16:28:35 by Ken777
Going To Cairns, Any Suggestions? posted Sun Apr 18 2010 18:18:56 by jdwfloyd
Bill Maher's Advice To Democrats, "Keep Going"! posted Sat Mar 27 2010 13:37:08 by MoltenRock
What's Going On With MSN.COM/IE? posted Thu Mar 25 2010 10:12:22 by varigb707