Sponsor Message:
Non Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Muslim Admits To Attacking Atheist  
User currently offlinestarbuk7 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 599 posts, RR: 5
Posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2833 times:

This is in Pennsylvania and sets a very bad precedent. We can not disregard our own laws for this kind of nonsense.

There needs to be a change on how Judges get their jobs and a way to get rid on the bad ones.

http://theconservativetreehouse.com/...lectures-atheist-on-joys-of-islam/

87 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9170 posts, RR: 29
Reply 1, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2806 times:

Can he appeal? Such a ruling would simply be impossible in Germany, Judges are independent but even if, the higher court would over rule this biased stuff.

Religion is a private matter, no one cannot be forced to believe in other peoples religion or follow their rules and a defendant who claims that he does not know that attacking people is unlawful in civilized countries should be sent back where he came from.

.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2775 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 1):
Can he appeal? Such a ruling would simply be impossible in Germany, Judges are independent but even if, the higher court would over rule this biased stuff.

It's no different here. Judges' rulings are subject to appeal in the US.


User currently offlineCASINTEREST From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4510 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2768 times:

Quoting starbuk7 (Thread starter):
This is in Pennsylvania and sets a very bad precedent. We can not disregard our own laws for this kind of nonsense.

There needs to be a change on how Judges get their jobs and a way to get rid on the bad ones.

I am looking for a better article on this. From what i have discovered, there are some fact missing on the dismissal of the Assault charges. The judge was not muslim as posted in the article.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineNoUFO From Germany, joined Apr 2001, 7943 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2753 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 1):
Such a ruling would simply be impossible in Germany,

Impossible is nothing. Unlikely yes, but then again a ruling like this was (and still is) unlikely in the U.S. as well.



I support the right to arm bears
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21530 posts, RR: 55
Reply 5, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2707 times:

Quoting CASINTEREST (Reply 3):
I am looking for a better article on this. From what i have discovered, there are some fact missing on the dismissal of the Assault charges. The judge was not muslim as posted in the article.

The article I saw said that the judge was an Iraq veteran, and that he threw out the case because of lack of evidence (it said nothing about the defendant having confessed). It did mention that he lectured the plaintiff, though.

EDIT: Can't find the article I saw, but here's another one that disputes that the judge is Muslim, and doesn't mention the defendant as having confessed:

7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6787 posts, RR: 34
Reply 6, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2651 times:

It should be appealed and had bloody well better be reversed.

Free speech still rules regardless of one Islamist sympathizing judge.

Sharia has entered the US judicial system.


User currently offlineiakobos From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 3312 posts, RR: 35
Reply 7, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2598 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 1):
Religion is a private matter

...ideally "should be" a private matter, however Islam is not a religion but an ideology.


User currently onlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1265 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2548 times:

Quoting starbuk7 (Thread starter):
This is in Pennsylvania and sets a very bad precedent. We can not disregard our own laws for this kind of nonsense.

There needs to be a change on how Judges get their jobs and a way to get rid on the bad ones.

If you're going to read garbage "news" sites like that you have to realize that most of the time the stories are made up. The case was dismissed because of lack of evidence, the judge is Lutheran not Muslim, and the charge was harrassment not assault.

The judge told this guy that dressing up as Mohamed probably isn't a great idea. It's good advice.

Quoting slider (Reply 6):
Sharia has entered the US judicial system.

A little over the top don't you think?

[Edited 2012-02-29 11:19:36]


If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6787 posts, RR: 34
Reply 9, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 2513 times:

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 8):
A little over the top don't you think?

Based on the judge's own words, no.

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/socie...theist-muslim-judge-dismisses-case

Quote:
Judge Michael Martin, a self-professed Muslim ruled against Pearce, and found the defendent "not guilty." Incredibly he admonished Pearce in the courtroom, even suggesting that if he had pulled the same stunt in a Muslim country he would have been put to death:

"Having had the benefit of having spent over 2 and a half years in predominantly Muslim countries I think I know a little bit about the faith of Islam. In fact I have a copy of the Koran here... I think you misinterpreted things. Before you start mocking someone else’s religion you may want to find out a little bit more about it it makes you look like a dufus and Mr. (Defendant) is correct. In many Arabic speaking countries something like this is definitely against the law there. In their society in fact it can be punishable by death and it frequently is in their society."

It's not nor should it be against the law HERE, yet that's how this idiot ruled. We are a rule of laws.

And, to point out again the double standard, not a SINGLE Catholic individual, church or organization made any protest when the guy dressed in a Pope costume. But say, do or act in ANY manner that is offensive to Islam, and you face criminal consequence now...ridiculous!!!


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13968 posts, RR: 63
Reply 10, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2490 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 1):
Can he appeal? Such a ruling would simply be impossible in Germany, Judges are independent but even if, the higher court would over rule this biased stuff.
Quoting NoUFO (Reply 4):
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 1):
Such a ruling would simply be impossible in Germany,

Impossible is nothing. Unlikely yes, but then again a ruling like this was (and still is) unlikely in the U.S. as well.

If it was such a very biased verdict, it could even be a case of Rechtsbeugung (Perverting the course of justice), which is felony over here.

Jan

[Edited 2012-02-29 12:34:00]

User currently offlineCASINTEREST From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4510 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2470 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 5):
EDIT: Can't find the article I saw, but here's another one that disputes that the judge is Muslim, and doesn't mention the defendant as having confessed:

I found one .
http://www.realclearpolitics.com/art...e_what_really_happened_113293.html

Judge is not a muslim
Case was dismissed for lack of evidence.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6787 posts, RR: 34
Reply 12, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2458 times:

Quoting CASINTEREST (Reply 11):
Judge is not a muslim

Whether he is or isn't--at least publicly--is really irrelevant and is a red herring. The fact is the judge lectured Perce for 6 minutes about being 'disrespectful' but not ONE word was said to Elboyomy about HIS actions, which WAS a violation of law.

Quote:
The judge added, “I think our forefathers intended to use the First Amendment so we can speak with our mind, not to p— off other people and cultures – which is what you did.”

Well, the great thing about this country and our nearly sacred freedom of speech is that we have the right to piss other people off with what we say. I may disagree with it, but his right to say it is inviolable.

And even worse, the victim, Ernest Perce, has received 471 verifiable threats. Although Perce never released any personal information on Judge Martin or Elbayomy, they released his, and now he has gotten threats at his home.

Nice…. STOP SHARIA IN AMERICA.


User currently offlineCASINTEREST From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4510 posts, RR: 2
Reply 13, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 2450 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 12):
which WAS a violation of law.

Which part of not enough evidence do you not comprehend?

Quoting slider (Reply 12):
STOP SHARIA IN AMERICA.

WTF does this have to do with anything above. Did you read any articles, or just jump in for the islam bashing?



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently onlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3427 posts, RR: 17
Reply 14, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2414 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting CASINTEREST (Reply 13):
Which part of not enough evidence do you not comprehend?

  

Quoting CASINTEREST (Reply 13):
WTF does this have to do with anything above. Did you read any articles, or just jump in for the islam bashing?

Islam bashing at it best, nothing new here.

I wonder why nobody accused those people

Quoting starbuk7 (Thread starter):
ttp://theconservativetreehouse.com/...lectures-atheist-on-joys-of-islam/

of biased reporting, changing facts and lying?


Whenever i read some of the postings bashing Islam i remember the movie The Russian are coming, i suggest another movie for this day and age ( The Sharia is coming)  biggrin 

[Edited 2012-02-29 14:33:26]


I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21530 posts, RR: 55
Reply 15, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2396 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 14):
Islam bashing at it best, nothing new here.

Well, not quite. From CASINTEREST's article:

With such conflicting testimony, Martin's decision to dismiss the case is entirely reasonable. The way in which he used his position as a bully pulpit is another story.

It is not unusual for judges to admonish the parties in a case, sometimes harshly, about their conduct. In this instance, though, the lecture was startlingly one-sided. Martin lambasted Perce for his disrespect for other people's culture and faith while not one critical word was spoken to Elbayomy.

There is nothing wrong with telling someone that just because he has a constitutional right to say something doesn't mean he should say it (which Martin told me was his point). Yet there is something inherently disturbing about a public official chastising a citizen for engaging in constitutionally protected expression, however obnoxious. It is especially troubling when it's a matter of criticizing or even lampooning religion, an area in which free speech has so often been trampled.

Meanwhile, Martin had before him a defendant who, by his own and his lawyer's admission, was grossly ignorant of the protections for free speech in America. Surely, a lecture on civics would not have been amiss.


I'm in complete agreement here. Whether he was guilty or not is one thing - I wasn't there, I can't say. But the judge was clearly showing preferential treatment to the defendant in saying that people should watch what they say about Islam to muslims because it's a very important subject to them, while saying nothing to the defendant about what freedom of speech actually means. And that's not right. It's not Sharia law, but it still shouldn't have happened.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6787 posts, RR: 34
Reply 16, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2383 times:

Quoting CASINTEREST (Reply 13):
WTF does this have to do with anything above. Did you read any articles, or just jump in for the islam bashing?
Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 14):
Islam bashing at it best, nothing new here.

Please try to pay attention to the facts....

Thanks Mir....


User currently onlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1265 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2366 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 12):
Whether he is or isn't--at least publicly

So you think he's a secret muslim just because he said to the guy that the First Amendment's purpose is not to piss people off? Do you realize how irrational that makes you sound? I would tell him the same thing- does that make me a muslim?

Quoting slider (Reply 9):
It's not nor should it be against the law HERE, yet that's how this idiot ruled.

He dismissed the case due to lack of evidence. But in seems you're not interested in the actual facts of the case- you just want to construct your own narrative to bolster your prejudices.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently onlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3427 posts, RR: 17
Reply 18, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2354 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting slider (Reply 16):
Please try to pay attention to the facts....

Yeh as if it is not the first time.
Fact the judge is not a Muslim
Fact the judge dismissed the case for lack of evidence
Fact the conservative tree house did a bias reporting
Fact you do bash Islam every time Islam is discussed

Did i pay attention to the facts?



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlinestasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3280 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2335 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 12):
Nice…. STOP SHARIA IN AMERICA.

VERY over the top - and the United States judical system is NOT based on sharia law - remember the seperation of church and state in the US Constitution??? Stop watching Fox News and listening to Rush   



"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlinehomsar From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1165 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2332 times:

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 17):
Quoting slider (Reply 12):
Whether he is or isn't--at least publicly

So you think he's a secret muslim just because he said to the guy that the First Amendment's purpose is not to piss people off? Do you realize how irrational that makes you sound? I would tell him the same thing- does that make me a muslim?

Wow, talk about putting words in someone's mouth.

Quoting slider (Reply 12):
Whether he is or isn't--at least publicly--is really irrelevant and is a red herring.



I was raised by a cup of coffee.
User currently offlineJakeOrion From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1253 posts, RR: 2
Reply 21, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 2326 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 15):
But the judge was clearly showing preferential treatment to the defendant in saying that people should watch what they say about Islam to muslims because it's a very important subject to them, while saying nothing to the defendant about what freedom of speech actually means. And that's not right. It's not Sharia law, but it still shouldn't have happened.

This pretty much sums up the issue. Given this, questions will arise and need to be answered. At the end of the day, he failed as a judge by not maintaining a neutral demeanor.



Every problem has a simple solution; finding the simple solution is the difficult problem.
User currently onlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1265 posts, RR: 3
Reply 22, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2328 times:

Quoting homsar (Reply 20):
Wow, talk about putting words in someone's mouth.

Not really- just quoting what he said above. If he wasn't entertaining the notion that the judge's Lutheran faith is a front for his secret muslim faith, can you explain to me why he felt the need to insert the phrase "at least publicly" into his sentence? Why not just put:

"Whether he is or isn't is really irrelevant and is a red herring. "

?



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2424 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2295 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 9):
Having had the benefit of having spent over 2 and a half years in predominantly Muslim countries I think I know a little bit about the faith of Islam.

Problem is Judge, we're not in that country you spent those 2 and a half years in.

Regardless, even with the links provided, I don't think we're getting the whole story here. We're getting more sensationalism than the real story. From the media? Shocking - I know!



Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlinegeezer From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 1479 posts, RR: 2
Reply 24, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days ago) and read 2288 times:

I haven't read the story in the press; (I have very little interest in the press as a general rule); I did see a photo of, and hear a little bit about the guy who started the ruckus ; all I can say about this "schmuck" is.......that he's a "schmuck" !
I have ZERO sympathy for him, regardless of what happened to him.

Now, before you get all excited and start screaming that it's "against the law" to assault people, punch them in the snot locker, kick them in the "groin", I'm Not necessarilly disagreeing with you, but on the other hand, I've already done all of the above, and at the time, I felt quite justified ! I've seen people commit murder because someone flipped them the bird !

Everyone is "uptight" every time they hear the word "Muslim"; do you really think that because there have been terrible things done by Muslims, that you should run around and insult, piss off, or attack every Muslim you see ?

Hey........I just heard that a Baptist raped a school bus full of girl scouts ! Should we run out and attack every Baptist we can find ? (I think not) I'm not "condoning" anyone's actions, or "sticking up" for anyone; I AM saying if you want to attack some one, or piss some one off, save it for the "some one" that did the deed that got you so fired up in the first place.

Charley



Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1830 posts, RR: 10
Reply 25, posted (2 years 5 months 3 days ago) and read 2328 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 9):
Based on the judge's own words, no.

http://www.opposingviews.com/i/socie...-case

You're quoting a news source whose tagline is "News. Controversy. Opinion."...what did you expect to read?

Quoting JakeOrion (Reply 21):
At the end of the day, he failed as a judge by not maintaining a neutral demeanor.

I wouldn't go so far as to say he "failed". Failure would have been if there was a miscarriage of justice, which in this case there was not. The judge simply did not carry himself with the decorum expected of a man in his position.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 22):
If he wasn't entertaining the notion that the judge's Lutheran faith is a front for his secret muslim faith, can you explain to me why he felt the need to insert the phrase "at least publicly" into his sentence? Why not just put:

"Whether he is or isn't is really irrelevant and is a red herring. "

?

  

Quoting geezer (Reply 24):
I have very little interest in the press as a general rule

Good for you. Some people (I'll even admit guilt from time to time) take things they read in the news to heart based on a single source.



Flying refined.
User currently offlinegeezer From United States of America, joined Aug 2010, 1479 posts, RR: 2
Reply 26, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2285 times:

You guys are all looking at this thing from the "legal" standpoint; like a judge is supposed to, like a prosecutor is supposed to; I'm looking at it as I would, if it had been ME that was there, instead of the Muslim guy; face it........the so-called "plaintiff" is a schmuck of a guy who has a known track record of running around, deliberately antagonizing people; one day he's antagonizing Catholics, another days it's Jews, this day it was Muslims; tomorrow it will be Pentecostals; I have no use for people like that; in my book, people like that need to have their heads thumped, their butts kicked, their knuckles cracked. Had I been there, and if I was a Muslim, ( or anything else that jerk is always screwing with ), he would probably have ended up worse than he did. Hey.........the law is great.......I'm ordinarily a very law-abiding citizen; but the law can't be everywhere, all the time; there are always going to be situations where you have to DO what you have to DO !

I'll give you an example; years back, I was going nice and legal in the right lane of I-275; it was pouring down rain; as I as passing a "get-on ramp", this fool comes flying down the get-on ramp, smacks my van, takes off my right mirror, then speeds up, trying to out-run me; I chased the idiot for 15 minutes, at speeds that are crazy on a wet road; he finally got off of a ramp, and got on a dead end street; I had him blocked in; I jumped out, hotter than hell, goes rushing up, and I can see the guy is drunk on his butt, has a fancy suit on, and then he starts threatening me ! He's threatening me, after just crashing my vehicle, trying to flee the scene, and NOW he's actually threatening ME ! I don't threaten very well even now, and I'm 79; Back then, I didn't threaten AT ALL; then, he actually sticks his finger in my face ! He very quickly ended up with 3 broken fingers, and a bad nose. At that point, I had his plate number, so I got back in my car and drove off; went home, called the cops, told them my side of what happened; they went straight to his house, cuffed him, and threw his sorry butt in the slammer. A few days go by, I got a call.......from HIS lawyer ! He's gonna SUE me! I didn't get a lawyer, but I did get a hair cut and a new suit; showed up in court, his lawyer says I'm some kind of ninja like guy, bunch of horse puckey.......the judge asks me if I'm a karate guy, and I says......No your honor, I'm just an average working guy, with 5 kids to raise, a good job, I don't drink or smoke, I just work, and I DO tend to get mad as hell when some irresponsible Schmuck tries to drive drunk, hit and run my car, then sticks his finger in my face, and tries to assault ME, when HE's Inebriated; the judge said......."obviously this clean cut young man is just a hard working citizen..........throw the plaintiff back in jail !

Granted, I was fortunate; there ARE a few good traffic court judges; I lucked out and got a good one.

My thinking is, if you're healthy, if you want to stay healthy, don't "mess" with people; if you do, sooner or later it's apt to make you unhealthy.

Charley







Charley



Stupidity: Doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting a different result; Albert Einstein
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9170 posts, RR: 29
Reply 27, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2261 times:

Quoting iakobos (Reply 7):
.ideally "should be" a private matter, however Islam is not a religion but an ideology.

"should" or "is" - no one should force his / her religious beliefs on other people. If muslims do not want to paint a picture of Mohammed, that's fine for them. But they have to tolerate if others do.

The Amish or the Hutterer do not want to paint pictures of people, that has to be respected. But they turn around if some disrespectful tourists photograph them, they don't beat them up and certainly don't kill others.

Sure islam is an ideology, like communism and other totalitarian .ideologies. The catholic church has, some centuries ago, very similar. Martin Luther has started to change that. Guess what islam needs.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19419 posts, RR: 58
Reply 28, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2253 times:

If you have to tell a lie to make your point, you have no point.

User currently onlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3427 posts, RR: 17
Reply 29, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2219 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting iakobos (Reply 7):
ideally "should be" a private matter, however Islam is not a religion but an ideology

Over one billion person do not agree with this statement.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10893 posts, RR: 37
Reply 30, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2203 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 29):
Over one billion person do not agree with this statement.

Islam is a good religion. Muslims are good people. It is the deviants, those who are misinterpreting the scripture, who are causing the problems, like in every other religion.



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently onlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3427 posts, RR: 17
Reply 31, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2181 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 30):
Islam is a good religion. Muslims are good people. It is the deviants, those who are misinterpreting the scripture, who are causing the problems, like in every other religion.

  
Merci MadameConcorde

[Edited 2012-03-01 02:19:12]


I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10893 posts, RR: 37
Reply 32, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2176 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 31):
Merci MadameConcorde

I am speaking from personal experience. I really mean what I said in my post.
I have always felt most welcome in Musliim countries every time I visited. The UAE, Bahrain, Iran, Indonesia, Malaysia, and others. I got to meet some of the best and nicest people imaginable.

     

[Edited 2012-03-01 02:27:26]


There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineronglimeng From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 625 posts, RR: 0
Reply 33, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2131 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 32):
I have always felt most welcome in Muslim countries every time I visited.

Yeah, just don't take a misstep...the consequences can be much more dire than in most other places.


User currently offlineiakobos From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 3312 posts, RR: 35
Reply 34, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2121 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 29):
Quoting iakobos (Reply 7):
ideally "should be" a private matter, however Islam is not a religion but an ideology

Over one billion person do not agree with this statement.

And over six billions would agree...


User currently offlineronglimeng From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 625 posts, RR: 0
Reply 35, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2116 times:

Muslims remind me of the Italian-American with a cousin in the Mafia.

He doesn't approve of his cousin's career choice and behaviour, but sometimes it's useful to let other people know about that cousin and how he's related.


User currently onlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3427 posts, RR: 17
Reply 36, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2106 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting iakobos (Reply 34):
And over six billions would agree

And six billion undecided that will make the earth population 13 billion. find your statement unreal and bordering on ignorance.
Quoting ronglimeng (Reply 33):
Yeah, just don't take a misstep...the consequences can be much more dire than in most other places.

You go to a country you respect the rules. Easy. No? otherwise don't bother to travel.

Quoting ronglimeng (Reply 35):
Muslims remind me of the Italian-American with a cousin in the Mafia.

That's much better than the Russian Mafia?   

[Edited 2012-03-01 05:28:00]

[Edited 2012-03-01 05:31:09]


I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 37, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2090 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 36):
So the earth population is 7 billion?

If you trust Wikipedia it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population


User currently onlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3427 posts, RR: 17
Reply 38, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2080 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 37):
If you trust Wikipedia it is: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_population

But i could find nowhere that 6 billion people believe Islam is an ideology not a religion
Quoting wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_populations



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1830 posts, RR: 10
Reply 39, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 2053 times:

Quoting iakobos (Reply 34):
And over six billions would agree...

Oh really? Well make that 6 billion minus 1.

Islam is a "good" religion (quotations used because I don't like the idea of ANY organized religion) and like any religion, it has its small population that go astray as Madame correctly indicated above.

To even suggest to know what 6 billion people agree or disagree with speaks volumes to one's grip with reality.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 36):
You go to a country you respect the rules. Easy. No? otherwise don't bother to travel.

Agreed. When I travel I go out of my way to respect local customs and culture, and I have never once had an incident.

Quoting ronglimeng (Reply 35):
Muslims remind me of the Italian-American with a cousin in the Mafia.

He doesn't approve of his cousin's career choice and behaviour, but sometimes it's useful to let other people know about that cousin and how he's related.

I don't see the problem...nothing wrong with having a little muscle behind you!   



Flying refined.
User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6787 posts, RR: 34
Reply 40, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1996 times:

Ah, another day, another example of radical Islamism in the news.

http://www.thelocal.fr/2685/20120227/

A Tunisian Islamist tries to set his 23 year old daughter on fire. For becoming "too Westernized"....


User currently onlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3427 posts, RR: 17
Reply 41, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1997 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting slider (Reply 40):
another example of radical Islamism in the news.

You said it (radical) never denied they do exist but not all Muslims are.
Let me make one thing very clear, in our area of the world honor, reputation, shame, virtue, virginity are things taken seriously not only by Muslims but by Christians in areas in Egypt, Syria, Algeria, Tunis etc.. it is not just religious beliefs but customs and culture.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineCASINTEREST From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4510 posts, RR: 2
Reply 42, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1981 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 16):
Please try to pay attention to the facts....

I am payting attention to the facts. You are introducing paranoia into this discussion.

Quoting Mir (Reply 15):

I'm in complete agreement here. Whether he was guilty or not is one thing - I wasn't there, I can't say. But the judge was clearly showing preferential treatment to the defendant in saying that people should watch what they say about Islam to muslims because it's a very important subject to them, while saying nothing to the defendant about what freedom of speech actually means. And that's not right. It's not Sharia law, but it still shouldn't have happened.

Free Speech is one thing ,but I am getting the impression from all of this that while the defendent in the assault was humble and apologetic, the "zombie Mohammad" was a bit more ignorant or adrift of the insults he was hurling. I think the judge was correct to point out how offensive he was being in this situation, and rightly or wrongly pointing out that ,yes in another country he could and probably would be killed for what here passes as free speech.

Either way, no charges, and we get a bunch of blowhards turning it into something it wasn't.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinestarbuk7 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 599 posts, RR: 5
Reply 43, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1974 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 41):


The incident that slider referred to is not radical or extremism. That was an "every day" Muslim trying to control someone.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 41):
Let me make one thing very clear, in our area of the world honor, reputation, shame, virtue, virginity are things taken seriously not only by Muslims but by Christians


Sure, those very words are taken seriously here as well but I would not try to light my daughter on fire if she wanted to do something that I did not agree with (I and my family are christian, by the way). I get tired of that same "extremist or radical" defense because it is not always the case.


User currently onlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1265 posts, RR: 3
Reply 44, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1951 times:

Quoting starbuk7 (Reply 43):
The incident that slider referred to is not radical or extremism.
Quoting starbuk7 (Reply 43):
Sure, those very words are taken seriously here as well but I would not try to light my daughter on fire if she wanted to do something that I did not agree with

Having traveled extensively in many Muslim countries and spoken to many people I can assure you this guy was unusual. It's not unheard of, but it is rare. I've known many Muslims and non-Muslims who have been angry with their daughters, but there's a big step up from that to setting them alight and it has nothing to do with religion.

Assuming this account is accurate I consider one of two possibilities- either this guy is severely mentally ill, in which case he should be institutionalized, or he is an evil criminal who should be in prison for a long time.

Blaming it on Islam rather than face the uglier truth that some people are just terrible human beings seems to me to be almost an excuse- a get out clause which absolves him of his crimes: "Blame the religion, not the poor chap who got caught up in it".



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6537 posts, RR: 9
Reply 45, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 1902 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 5):
It did mention that he lectured the plaintiff, though.

If nothing happened, what was the lecture about ?

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 36):
You go to a country you respect the rules. Easy. No? otherwise don't bother to travel.

Well, that's exactly what the Muslim guy in the story didn't do, had you followed. Apparently he was apologetic so I won't be too harsh with him or wish he got a sanction.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 38):
But i could find nowhere that 6 billion people believe Islam is an ideology not a religion

I don't know about other people, but I think every religion is an ideology, those are not exclusive. Never heard a religion saying that any other was right.

Quoting slider (Reply 40):
Ah, another day, another example of radical Islamism in the news.

http://www.thelocal.fr/2685/20120227/

A Tunisian Islamist tries to set his 23 year old daughter on fire. For becoming "too Westernized"....

Doesn't Islamism already mean "radical Islam" ? Anyway, I just read about that in the paper, I used to live in that exact street. Lots of Jews there, and a great street life. Expensive as hell, though.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently onlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3427 posts, RR: 17
Reply 46, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1882 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Aesma (Reply 45):
I don't know about other people, but I think every religion is an ideology

If you feel like calling all religions ideology that is your choice. I will not accept people who single one religion from all others and call it an ideology.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19419 posts, RR: 58
Reply 47, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1838 times:

This crap just smacks of the same sorts of smears against Jews that ran in German papers in the '30's.

User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 3948 posts, RR: 28
Reply 48, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1828 times:

Even if half the facts presented in that story are true, the behavior of that judge is unexcusable and he should be impeached and made to stand trial for subverting the U.S. justice system.

Quoting slider (Reply 6):
Sharia has entered the US judicial system.

And yet some people react all insulted when some states want to specifically ban it from being used in courts of law, saying it is not needed.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 29):

Over one billion person do not agree with this statement.

Oh, really? So you are telling me all 1 billion people that live in muslim-dominated countries are muslim and think the same way? When all muslim countries allow freedom of religion and do not sentence people to prison and/or death for switching religions / becoming atheists I will believe the 1 billion people number (not that everyone would think the same), until then your numbers are total baloney.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 36):

You go to a country you respect the rules. Easy. No?

Oh, you mean like the guy who assaulted that person clearly did not?



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19419 posts, RR: 58
Reply 49, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1836 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 48):
Even if half the facts presented in that story are true, the behavior of that judge is unexcusable and he should be impeached and made to stand trial for subverting the U.S. justice system.

Yeah, about 10% are, so actually the story is a COMPLETE AND TOTAL LIE other than the names.

I'd tell you the real story, but I'll do you one better: read above. The real story is completely different.


User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 3948 posts, RR: 28
Reply 50, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1824 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 49):
Yeah, about 10% are, so actually the story is a COMPLETE AND TOTAL LIE other than the names.

So you are saying a judge did not berate a person for dressing up as a zombie muhammad WHILE IN THE COMPANY OF A ZOMBIE POPE (which apparently is perfectly acceptable) and in so doing tacitally defend his assailant?



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21530 posts, RR: 55
Reply 51, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 1811 times:

Quoting CASINTEREST (Reply 42):
I think the judge was correct to point out how offensive he was being in this situation, and rightly or wrongly pointing out that ,yes in another country he could and probably would be killed for what here passes as free speech.

I would agree if he had then turned to the defendant and gave him a lecture on what free speech means, and how you can't assault someone for saying something that you find offensive. But that didn't happen.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 48):
And yet some people react all insulted when some states want to specifically ban it from being used in courts of law, saying it is not needed.

It isn't needed. Sharia law is already banned - we've got one justice system in this country, and it's established by the protections enshrined in the Constitution.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1830 posts, RR: 10
Reply 52, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1804 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 50):
WHILE IN THE COMPANY OF A ZOMBIE POPE (which apparently is perfectly acceptable)

If the gentleman dressed as the zombie pope were present (and identified as such, which there is no requirement because he was not the victim) then I'm sure he would have been berated all the same. So I'm not too sure why you bring that up.



Flying refined.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19419 posts, RR: 58
Reply 53, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1801 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 50):
So you are saying a judge did not berate a person for dressing up as a zombie muhammad WHILE IN THE COMPANY OF A ZOMBIE POPE (which apparently is perfectly acceptable) and in so doing tacitally defend his assailant?

He berated his plaintiff for disrespectful behavior in general and for disrespectful behavior in the courtroom.


User currently offlineSFBdude From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 124 posts, RR: 0
Reply 54, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1794 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 51):
I would agree if he had then turned to the defendant and gave him a lecture on what free speech means, and how you can't assault someone for saying something that you find offensive. But that didn't happen.


If the case was thrown out due to lack of evidence, giving a speech to the defendant about how wrong it is to assault someone over free speech would make it appear as though he is guilty of that accusation.


User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 55, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1789 times:

One Muslim does something bad and all Muslims are bad. Or at least that is the impression that some people wish to create.

I saw on television that in the US there has been another case of some young person taking a gun to school and shooting his class-mates. Now it appears that this guy had no religious motive or any other apparent motive. Should I conclude from this that all Americans are likely to shoot someone for no reason at all?

Intentional homicide figures may provide some perspective. Comparative deaths per 100,000 population by countries reveal the following:
Bahrain 0.77;
UAE 0.92;
Qatar 0.93;
Saudi Arabia 1.04;
Egypt 1.24;
Morocco 1.37; compared to
Iran with 3.0 and the
United States with 5.0.

While religion is not behind most homicides in the US it still appears to be a more violent society if one goes by those figures alone.

It seems the world's people will never mature. Before the second world war all the world's problems were pinned on Jews. After WWII it was all the fault of the "commies". Now that the hammer and sickle are rusted away it is all the fault of Muslims. So many people want to hate someone else and pretend at the same to be morally superior to everyone else.


User currently onlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3427 posts, RR: 17
Reply 56, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1726 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 48):
until then your numbers are total baloney.

I chose 1 billion from 1.7 billion Muslim worldwide so my figures are acceptable but you called that baloney, at the same time the 6 billions which is the rest of the world is ok with you? I call that double standard.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21530 posts, RR: 55
Reply 57, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1692 times:

Quoting SFBdude (Reply 54):
If the case was thrown out due to lack of evidence, giving a speech to the defendant about how wrong it is to assault someone over free speech would make it appear as though he is guilty of that accusation.

Not necessarily. Lack of evidence doesn't mean that you didn't do it, it just means that it can't be proven. The system, fortunately, is set up so that you need proof, so he's innocent. But that doesn't mean he can't be educated on what free speech means.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinestarbuk7 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 599 posts, RR: 5
Reply 58, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 1666 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 55):
Bahrain 0.77;
UAE 0.92;
Qatar 0.93;
Saudi Arabia 1.04;
Egypt 1.24;
Morocco 1.37; compared to
Iran with 3.0 and the
United States with 5.0.


Interesting set of countries you picked here, No other major players except the U.S. Throw some European, Asian or even your own country in the mix from wherever you got the numbers from then lets do some comparisons.

I am not throwing all of Islam under the bus here because I know the majority of Muslims are peaceful, I just never seem to see the outcry form the so called "moderate" Muslims any time this kind on thing happens.


User currently offlineSFBdude From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 124 posts, RR: 0
Reply 59, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 1652 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 57):
Not necessarily. Lack of evidence doesn't mean that you didn't do it, it just means that it can't be proven. The system, fortunately, is set up so that you need proof, so he's innocent. But that doesn't mean he can't be educated on what free speech means.

-Mir

If it can't be proven that such attacks took place, then there is no point in lecturing him on what free speech means since there was a lack of proof. Its like giving a lecture to a defendant in a murder trial about how killing is bad and illegal even though he was never convicted. The judge would be making him look as though he is guilty even though there is no longer a case against him.


User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 60, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 1647 times:

Quoting starbuk7 (Reply 58):
Throw some European, Asian or even your own country

As requested:

Austria (no kangaroos) 0.56;
Germany 0.84;
Netherlands 0.87;
Japan 0.83;
China 1.12
Australia 1.16;
India 3.4;
Pakistan 7.3.

If we jump to Ukraine it is 7.0 while Russia is 12.0. The highest figures tend to be in Central and South America, followed by some African States. What the figures do show is that Muslims are not generally more predisposed to violence than people of other backgrounds.

Quoting starbuk7 (Reply 58):
"moderate" Muslims

Unfortunately they often get drowned out in the clamour. There have been reports in the media that Islamic organisations have condemned acts of violence and I have seen some of our fellow members who are Muslims stating that they are opposed to violence, yet what they say is either dismissed or simply ignored. When a crowd is baying for blood it seldom listens to reason and that is true in every country.


User currently onlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1265 posts, RR: 3
Reply 61, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1624 times:

Quoting SFBdude (Reply 54):
If the case was thrown out due to lack of evidence, giving a speech to the defendant about how wrong it is to assault someone over free speech would make it appear as though he is guilty of that accusation.
Quoting Mir (Reply 57):
Not necessarily. Lack of evidence doesn't mean that you didn't do it, it just means that it can't be proven. The system, fortunately, is set up so that you need proof, so he's innocent. But that doesn't mean he can't be educated on what free speech means.

I'm confused. Didn't he give a speech to the plaintiff? The defendant was the Muslim guy. Or am I missing something?

The judge doesn't believe the Muslim "harrassed" this guy. He was giving advice about the wisdom of dressing as zombie Mohamed, the veracity of which has never been questioned.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6537 posts, RR: 9
Reply 62, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1589 times:

Quoting SFBdude (Reply 59):
If it can't be proven that such attacks took place, then there is no point in lecturing him on what free speech means since there was a lack of proof. Its like giving a lecture to a defendant in a murder trial about how killing is bad and illegal even though he was never convicted. The judge would be making him look as though he is guilty even though there is no longer a case against him.

So, let me get this straight : the defendant said he didn't do anything ? Then why the lecture to the plaintiff about his costume, since nothing happened ? The only lecture should be about frivolous accusation or something like that.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 3948 posts, RR: 28
Reply 63, posted (2 years 5 months 20 hours ago) and read 1514 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 56):
I chose 1 billion from 1.7 billion Muslim worldwide so my figures are acceptable

Sorry, did't know you had exact statistics on who was a believer and by how much. Where did you get them from, the Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice?

Quoting starbuk7 (Reply 58):
I am not throwing all of Islam under the bus here because I know the majority of Muslims are peaceful, I just never seem to see the outcry form the so called "moderate" Muslims any time this kind on thing happens.

They are the ones in the back of the violent demonstration against Mohammad cartoons, planning a clean escape in case the wind starts blowing the other way.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 60):
Pakistan 7.3.

Sounds incredibly low... does that include all the people that get blown to pieces at Mosque, in the market, etc. by their fellow contrymen? Also notice Afghanistan, Iraq, Lybia and Syria are suspiciously absent...



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 64, posted (2 years 5 months 20 hours ago) and read 1507 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 63):
Sounds incredibly low...

Peace loving people from the West went into some of those countries bearing gifts of missiles, helicopter gunships, killing innocent people at weddings. Of course those deaths are not included in the deaths listed. Remind me who sold WMDs to Iraq so that it could fight a proxy war against Iran? Who equipped the Taliban when they were fighting the USSR? The West was quiet happy to sponsor terrorism and local wars when it suited their agenda. Now that it has come back to bite them in the proverbial, the West cries foul. For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind.

This ridiculous white hat black hat positioning is precisely that which ensures lasting hatreds. For example, criticising the person who states a figure of 1 billion people but ignoring the claim of 6 billion by somebody else on even fewer grounds. The fact is no-one knows the exact figures one way or the other. So why criticise one and not the other?


User currently onlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3427 posts, RR: 17
Reply 65, posted (2 years 5 months 19 hours ago) and read 1503 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 63):
Sorry, did't know you had exact statistics on who was a believer and by how much. Where did you get them from, the Committee for the Propagation of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice?

No i used my brains, maybe others may start using theirs.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 63):
They are the ones in the back of the violent demonstration against Mohammad cartoons, planning a clean escape in case the wind starts blowing the other way.

And you know that for a fact because?

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 64):
So why criticise one and not the other?

I asked that question before but was ignored, of course we know the answer to that.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 66, posted (2 years 5 months 12 hours ago) and read 1458 times:

Whether actual harassment took place or not, I think this judge was out of line. Another blatant example of the pro-religion establishment in the US.

As for whether or not one should mock other people's religions....

"Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions."
- Thomas Jefferson

If one believes that religion is the problem with the world and resents the favored position it enjoys in our society, dressing up as a zombie Pope or zombie Mohammed is a pretty harmless way to express it - not like assaulting somebody, strapping yourself up with C-4, or invading a country.

Too bad if you're not secure enough in your position to weather ridicule. Of course that is how most religions have consolidated and maintained their power - violent response to any criticism and embedding themselves in the government.


User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 3948 posts, RR: 28
Reply 67, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 1344 times:

This thread is really interesting in order to be able to assess the left's ranking of values:

Non-Christian religions > atheists > Christian religions > U.S. people that live more than 60 miles away from an ocean

If you know the above you will know what side the left will take in any argument.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 64):

Peace loving people from the West went into some of those countries bearing gifts of missiles, helicopter gunships, killing innocent people at weddings. Of course those deaths are not included in the deaths listed.

Oh, of course, it is the West, is it. I am sure innocent civilians die once in a while - it is war, after all - but I also know that there has never been a military in the history of the world more concerned about preventing civilian casualties (often to the detriment of their own safety) than the current Western ones.

Now your turn to be honest and then I will let you go back to your self-loathing - of the hundreds of thousands of civilians that have died in Iraq and Afhanistan since the invasion how many have died because of acts of violence by their fellow countrymen, in acts deliberately targeting civilians (such as bombs in mosques, marketplaces, etc.)? 90%? 95%?

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 64):
For example, criticising the person who states a figure of 1 billion people but ignoring the claim of 6 billion by somebody else on even fewer grounds. The fact is no-one knows the exact figures one way or the other. So why criticise one and not the other?

What 6 billion? I am not disputing any figure because claims that everybody thinks alike are ridiculous. I was simply criticizing the person who brought up a made-up number of people who supposedly believed in something (and all of them in the same fashion) to justify why that thing must be correct (must I really go back a few centuries to bring up the number of people in the world that thought slavery was right?).

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 65):
And you know that for a fact because?

Ok, it is not, fine? Just let me know exactly how many bomb attacks in public places, violent riots against mohammad cartoons or accidental burnings of some old book, imposition of religious law to settle civil matters in Western countries, etc. we must go through before we can finally admit that perhaps Islam is not a religion like the others.



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1336 posts, RR: 0
Reply 68, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 1319 times:

Isolating Islam in respect to violent ideology and events reeks of scapegoating. The incidents you people cite against it every other day take place for dozens of reasons in dozens of places. To imply that every incident of violence that involves a Muslim is a result of religious conviction demonstrates a willful disregard for every other cultural, economic, and political context. Are Muslim immigrants in Europe attempting to settle their disputes via Islamic law doing so for the same reason riots are happening in Afghanistan over Koran burning? Not hardly.

User currently onlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3427 posts, RR: 17
Reply 69, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 1311 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 67):
we must go through before we can finally admit that perhaps Islam is not a religion like the others.

The only thing this incidents show that there are few radical Islamists who are more dangerous on Islam as a religion than anything else. Religion and radicals does exist hand in hand in about all religions.
The bombing in Norway July 2011 was committed for religious reasons did you hear or see any Muslims attacking Christianity for that, or calling all Christians terrorists?
All those school attacks lately in the USA were not committed by Muslims, why you do not say anything about it?
Or only Islam is the bully in this day and time?



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlinedarksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1347 posts, RR: 3
Reply 70, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1288 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 15):

I'm in complete agreement here. Whether he was guilty or not is one thing - I wasn't there, I can't say. But the judge was clearly showing preferential treatment to the defendant in saying that people should watch what they say about Islam to muslims because it's a very important subject to them, while saying nothing to the defendant about what freedom of speech actually means. And that's not right. It's not Sharia law, but it still shouldn't have happened.

I think that's where the line was crossed, yes. There was no need or cause for a lecture of any nature.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 36):

You go to a country you respect the rules. Easy. No? otherwise don't bother to travel.

Why, in your best words, does this not apply to the defendant?

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 36):
find your statement unreal and bordering on ignorance.

Maybe. But it was in reference to your own, which was equally so.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 44):

Blaming it on Islam rather than face the uglier truth that some people are just terrible human beings seems to me to be almost an excuse- a get out clause which absolves him of his crimes: "Blame the religion, not the poor chap who got caught up in it".

I think that's fair. The worst people I have ever had to deal with in my own life have had nothing to do with islam.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 46):
I will not accept people who single one religion from all others and call it an ideology.

You're going to have a tough time then. Most of us don't live in or near saudi. We're allowed to say and think whatever we want or need about your or anyone else's ideology/religion.

Quoting SFBdude (Reply 54):


If the case was thrown out due to lack of evidence, giving a speech to the defendant about how wrong it is to assault someone over free speech would make it appear as though he is guilty of that accusation.

Not an expert, but as a technical matter of law, I think this is correct. The plaintiff even more so, should never have been lectured. This judge owes the plaintiff an apology and the knowledge that his rant will be stricken from the record. We'll what happens though.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 55):

While religion is not behind most homicides in the US it still appears to be a more violent society if one goes by those figures alone.

We are incredibly violent here. But what those figures don't show are the rampant injustices that places like saudi arabia use, quite recklessly, to achieve those results. They may have a lower homicide rate, but you'd sooner find me living in the most violent environs of Detroit (and I do hate winter too!), then in some lawless theocracy.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 66):

Too bad if you're not secure enough in your position to weather ridicule. Of course that is how most religions have consolidated and maintained their power - violent response to any criticism and embedding themselves in the government.

Quite very true. If islam is serious about trying to appear more moderate, a zero tolerance policy towards indignant outrage whenever someone insults old mo' is absolutely required. Currently though, there is nothing in the koran or sharia law to provide for this. islam can claim to peaceful all it wants, but until we start walking the walk (at least in theory if nothing else), I find it most difficult to take that claim seriously.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 69):

The bombing in Norway July 2011 was committed for religious reasons did you hear or see any Muslims attacking Christianity for that, or calling all Christians terrorists?

If it happened with the frequency that islam based attacks do, I suspect there would be plenty of that, and it would be well earned.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 69):
All those school attacks lately in the USA were not committed by Muslims, why you do not say anything about it?

First, plenty has been said about that. Such events are usually litigated extensively in this country and we now have metal detectors at many schools.

Second, what does that have to do with ideology based attacks? That is almost never the case in those incidents.



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently onlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3427 posts, RR: 17
Reply 71, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 1278 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 70):
Why, in your best words, does this not apply to the defendant?

Never defended him, if he broke the law he should be punished, period.

Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 70):
Maybe. But it was in reference to your own, which was equally so.

Nope it was not, Saying that one billion out of 1.8 billion Muslim believe that Islam is a religion is a fact, but to come back with 6 billions believe it is not, if that is not bordering on ignorance i don't what will be.

Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 70):
You're going to have a tough time then. Most of us don't live in or near saudi. We're allowed to say and think whatever we want or need about your or anyone else's ideology/religion.

Anybody can say what they like, it's my choice to accept it or not, i have the right to defend what i consider is the truth. Does me living in Saudi Arabia denies me this rights?

Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 70):
If it happened with the frequency that islam based attacks do, I suspect there would be plenty of that, and it would be well earned.

Islam based or Radical Islamists? huge difference here, one are few who are using religion to explain there actions the other is calling all Muslims terrorists. Your choice.

Quoting darksnowynight (Reply 70):
Second, what does that have to do with ideology based attacks? That is almost never the case in those incidents.

Just showing that acts of terror could happen without it being based on religion.
Again Islam is a religion even the Vatican accept that fact, not an ideology.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 72, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 1226 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 67):
Non-Christian religions > atheists > Christian religions > U.S. people that live more than 60 miles away from an ocean

I am completely at a loss to understand what your simple flow chart is supposed to show. Personally, I don't care whether someone is a Christian or follower of Erich von Däniken. As long as they are prepared to live a decent life with due regard for others there are no problems. I have no idea where other posters live as the flags shown are not always indicative of what country a person is in, let alone how far they are from the nearest McDonalds.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 67):
I will let you go back to your self-loathing

From where do you get this idea of self-loathing? At the risk of being accused of those other silly little (and meaningless) jabs so favoured by those who prefer labels to analysis - moral relativism and political correctness - I simply show that all people from all backgrounds can be shown to either be violent or support violence when it suits them. This is not something limited to people who profess Islam.

Love and affection from this politically correct, self-loathing moral relativist human being.   


User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6787 posts, RR: 34
Reply 73, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 1160 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 69):
The only thing this incidents show that there are few radical Islamists who are more dangerous on Islam as a religion than anything else. Religion and radicals does exist hand in hand in about all religions.

Ah, continued equivocation.... well, at least you're consistent SOBHI.


User currently onlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1265 posts, RR: 3
Reply 74, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1140 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 67):
This thread is really interesting in order to be able to assess the left's ranking of values:

Non-Christian religions > atheists > Christian religions > U.S. people that live more than 60 miles away from an ocean

That's what it's about to you isn't it- grouping everybody into little groups and ranking them from best to worst.

Consider the facts of the case rather than always trying to fight your little war against liberals.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently onlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3427 posts, RR: 17
Reply 75, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 1133 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting slider (Reply 73):
Ah, continued equivocation.... well, at least you're consistent SOBHI.

Because this is what i believe without any prejudice.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21530 posts, RR: 55
Reply 76, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1123 times:

Quoting SFBdude (Reply 59):
If it can't be proven that such attacks took place, then there is no point in lecturing him on what free speech means since there was a lack of proof.

The defendant admitted that he confronted the plaintiff and threatened to call the police, believing that insulting Mohammed was a crime. That right there is grounds for a civics lecture.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 61):
He was giving advice about the wisdom of dressing as zombie Mohamed, the veracity of which has never been questioned.

Which is fine. What I have a problem with is that he didn't give similar advice to the other party about the wisdom of free speech laws, and what they mean, and what is illegal and what one is obligated to tolerate.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently onlinezckls04 From United States of America, joined Dec 2011, 1265 posts, RR: 3
Reply 77, posted (2 years 4 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1122 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 76):
Which is fine. What I have a problem with is that he didn't give similar advice to the other party about the wisdom of free speech laws, and what they mean, and what is illegal and what one is obligated to tolerate.

That I can agree with. He should have made that clear, or better still not lectured either of them.

I agree the judge handled it badly. But I don't agree it's part of some "Muslim conspiracy", or that the judge was a "secret Muslim", or even that he needs to be sacked as a result.



If you're not sure whether to use a piece of punctuation, it's best not to.
User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6787 posts, RR: 34
Reply 78, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 1048 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 75):
Because this is what i believe without any prejudice.

Hey, your call if you want to continue to front and cover, make excuses and equivocate for a fascist way of life. I'm still waiting for the so-called Islamic "reform" to happen...

Meanwhile, I'm not waiting from continuing to calling Islam out for all the things it is.


User currently onlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3427 posts, RR: 17
Reply 79, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 1028 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting slider (Reply 78):
ey, your call if you want to continue to front and cover, make excuses and equivocate for a fascist way of life. I'm still waiting for the so-called Islamic "reform" to happen...

Meanwhile, I'm not waiting from continuing to calling Islam out for all the things it is.

That is where we differ i call it without prejudice you call it with.

http://www.muhajabah.com/otherscondemn.php

[Edited 2012-03-06 09:52:57]


I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26376 posts, RR: 76
Reply 80, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1000 times:

As usual, extremist websites connected to Andrew Breitbart have spread false information in order to inflame bigoted tendencies. I guess such practices will continue beyond his death.

Quoting starbuk7 (Thread starter):
There needs to be a change on how Judges get their jobs and a way to get rid on the bad ones.

Do you even know how "judges get their jobs" in Pennsylvania? Do you know the process of "getting rid of the bad ones" in Pennsylvania? It varies from state to state and the states vary from the federal judiciary.

Quoting slider (Reply 6):
Sharia has entered the US judicial system.

No it hasn't.

Quoting zckls04 (Reply 8):
A little over the top don't you think?

Extremely. Nothing new.

Quoting Mir (Reply 15):
But the judge was clearly showing preferential treatment to the defendant in saying that people should watch what they say about Islam to muslims because it's a very important subject to them, while saying nothing to the defendant about what freedom of speech actually means.

I don't think the judge was showing preferential treatment, rather he was pointing the finger at the other party.

Quoting Mir (Reply 76):
Which is fine. What I have a problem with is that he didn't give similar advice to the other party about the wisdom of free speech laws, and what they mean, and what is illegal and what one is obligated to tolerate.

I think its entirely possible that the judge figured that the guy who was arrested had learned his lesson by being taken into custody and having the threat of jail hanging over his head.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21530 posts, RR: 55
Reply 81, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 993 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 80):
I don't think the judge was showing preferential treatment, rather he was pointing the finger at the other party.

Is that to say that the guy brought it on himself by dressing up as Zombie Mohammad?

Quoting N1120A (Reply 80):
I think its entirely possible that the judge figured that the guy who was arrested had learned his lesson by being taken into custody and having the threat of jail hanging over his head.

Entirely possible. But he still should have said something to him. Redundant, perhaps, but sometimes a justice system requires some redundancy in order for the impression of fairness to be maintained.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19419 posts, RR: 58
Reply 82, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 993 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 80):
have spread false information

Let's call it what it is: have spread LIES.

I was born and raised in Michigan and we're known for being straight talkers. It's not "false information." It's lies.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26376 posts, RR: 76
Reply 83, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 935 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 81):
Is that to say that the guy brought it on himself by dressing up as Zombie Mohammad?

I think the judge was being kind of practical - don't be an a-hole, and people won't treat you like one.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 82):
Let's call it what it is: have spread LIES.

I was born and raised in Michigan and we're known for being straight talkers. It's not "false information." It's lies.

Point well taken.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21530 posts, RR: 55
Reply 84, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 922 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 83):
I think the judge was being kind of practical - don't be an a-hole, and people won't treat you like one.

But we've got the right to be a-holes, for better or worse. "Pointing the finger at the other party" seems to imply that the guy deserved to get confronted and threatened, which I have a serious problem with (well, maybe not the confronting part).

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26376 posts, RR: 76
Reply 85, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 920 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 84):
But we've got the right to be a-holes, for better or worse. "Pointing the finger at the other party" seems to imply that the guy deserved to get confronted and threatened, which I have a serious problem with (well, maybe not the confronting part).

The idea of provocation being a lesser excuse is a relatively new thing in common law jurisprudence. Its possible that the Lutheran judge was kind of an old-school guy.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21530 posts, RR: 55
Reply 86, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 908 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 85):
Its possible that the Lutheran judge was kind of an old-school guy.

In which case criticism of the way he handled the case would be entirely justified, so that he can figure out that his methods need to be updated.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26376 posts, RR: 76
Reply 87, posted (2 years 4 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 897 times:

Incidentally, I'm still trying to figure out where the OP thinks the State of Pennsylvania can improve its magistrate selection process.


Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
Australia - Schools To Teach Atheist Logic posted Sat Dec 13 2008 18:51:56 by High_flyr69
Victim Admits To Taunting Tiger Before Attack posted Fri Jan 18 2008 00:11:12 by RJdxer
L.A. Mayor Admits To Love Affair posted Tue Jul 3 2007 23:15:38 by AeroWesty
First Muslim Elected To Congress posted Wed Nov 8 2006 04:29:13 by TedTAce
Muslim Cabs To Signify Alcohol-Free Cars posted Mon Oct 2 2006 15:55:39 by Dtwclipper
Pope Invites Muslim Envoys To Rome posted Sat Sep 23 2006 00:27:45 by Cedars747
Worldwide Muslim Reaction To Denmark Cartoons posted Sat Feb 4 2006 16:50:48 by RJpieces
Muslim Youths To Guard Churches Over Christmas... posted Sat Dec 10 2005 20:34:55 by Joness0154
North Korea Admits To Possessing Nuclear Weapons posted Thu Apr 24 2003 20:18:39 by B757300
Al Qaeda Admits To Bali Bombing posted Thu Nov 7 2002 18:16:10 by Ryanb741