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Hiring An Employee, Bad References  
User currently offlinenjxc500 From United States of America, joined Dec 2007, 239 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3957 times:

Ok I need some input here....

I am helping my wife hire an employee to help with her business. We have a young girl who has graduated with a degree in the field we are looking for. She has been very persistent, waited over the winter and now its time to hire someone.

We got her resume out, called her current job listed, and she doesn't work there any more(original resume). We asked about this girl, all the manager would say "all I can say is she worked here". WTF. So I go in to this place, order a bagel, and I ask the nice young man at the counter if he knows her. It was not busy so we talked for a couple minutes, turns out this girl quit without notice, was unmotivated while working there, and was not liked in general.

We also called her internship employer, which had more of the same information. Did not recommend her.

We already had her scheduled for an interview, so we continued, and now we have to turn her down. No big deal.

The Question:

How much should I tell her? Or do I simply say, we are going with another applicant.

For Example:
Your references all came back negative.
You lied during your interview.
You quit your last job without notice.

Part of me wants to do this kid a favor and tell her she won't get a job in this field until she at least has a good reference. What on earth do you have a resume for, and you include all bad references, or are you ignorant.

Some sort of rant would ensue, but which way will be better for this girl.

Input?

74 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 1, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3948 times:

Quoting njxc500 (Thread starter):
Some sort of rant would ensue, but which way will be better for this girl.

I would say since young kids nowadays just never seem to be held accountable for anything anymore and have this idiotic sense of entitlement you should do her a favor and tell her straight up why you won't hire her. Hopefully she will correct her mistakes.

I personally however find it pretty aggravating when I'm just told "we found somebody better". It's pretty insulting to my intelligence. I much rather be told specifically why I was not chosen instead of just being blown off with no explanation. I also know lots of people that don't give a rats ass either way. But I appreciate constructive criticism, though most kids nowadays take it too damn personal. Just be tactful and upfront about it and you'll be fine. If she throws an immature rant tell her she's giving you even more reasons to NOT hire her.

[Edited 2012-03-01 09:58:22]

User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3617 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3927 times:

If you are really interested in a way that would be "better for the girl" then be frank about the reasons for not extending an offer to her. Young people nowadays do a lot of stupid things when looking for a job, I have had a lot of face-palm moments at campus recruiting events and since I am still young, I do try to be frank with people and I immediately tell them what not to do again if they ever wish to get a job. I do give them feedback so they can at least improve their approach and not keep repeating the same mistakes.

As Fly2HMO mentioned, I don't really like the generic negative responses which lack any substance whatsoever. I have had a few of them when I was younger and they offered no feedback for me to use and improve. She may end up being rude about it, at which point you will realize that maybe she didn't deserve your approach but that is fine, at least you tried.


User currently offlinedfwrevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 957 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3925 times:

Quoting njxc500 (Thread starter):
We already had her scheduled for an interview, so we continued, and now we have to turn her down. No big deal.

Not that you are seeking confirmation here, but you are absolutely doing the right thing. It is never worth settling on the wrong candidate just to get a position filled. Multiple unfavorable references cannot be ignored.

Quoting njxc500 (Thread starter):
How much should I tell her? Or do I simply say, we are going with another applicant.

For Example: Your references all came back negative.

I would just say that she is no longer in consideration for the position because her references came back unfavorable. I would not say that you are going with another application if you don't actually have another applicant in mind.

Quoting njxc500 (Thread starter):
Some sort of rant would ensue, but which way will be better for this girl.

You don't necessarily need to speak to the candidate. A letter will also suffice if you think she will explode on the phone.


User currently offlineFly2HMO From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3905 times:

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 3):
A letter will also suffice if you think she will explode on the phone.

So what if she does. He should just hang up if it gets to that point.

I think OP should just be upfront about it. A letter is so impersonal. Just call her, tell her straight up, and be done with it. If she want's to throw a bitch-fit about it that's her problem, not OP's. OP would have done his job by helping her improve. Whether she want's to take it maturely or not is her responsibility.

In fact, I may as go as far as to say that if she takes it in a (very) mature way, maybe she may be worth reconsidering, assuming you haven't found anybody significantly better.

[Edited 2012-03-01 10:07:16]

User currently offlinePlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11607 posts, RR: 60
Reply 5, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3878 times:

Quoting njxc500 (Thread starter):
How much should I tell her? Or do I simply say, we are going with another applicant.

For Example:
Your references all came back negative.
You lied during your interview.
You quit your last job without notice.

Normally I'd say go for it, but I'm presuming the manager wouldn't tell you more details because of company policy or data protection? Certainly that has been my experience with a couple of previous employers in the UK who flatly refuse to do anything more than acknowledge that I worked for them, making the 'reference' worth sod all other than filling a gap in my history. So telling her what you found out could be dropping the manager and/or the employee at her previous work right in it if she thinks they had no right to spill the beans and complains.


Dan  



...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
User currently offlineCASINTEREST From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4432 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3862 times:

Quoting njxc500 (Thread starter):
ow much should I tell her? Or do I simply say, we are going with another applicant.

I think Honesty is the best policy. Too many people get coddled through bad situations and it doesn't solve theirs or future employers issues.

Just say, "we went and checked references, but no one could really recommend you other than to say that you worked there".

From there on it is your choice, but she should know that she needs to be positive and professional in her job for future considerations, and or drop those references off of her Resume. If they gave that kind of recommendation, I doubt she even apprached them to be references.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinembmbos From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2597 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3859 times:

I'm assuming you're talking about hiring someone in the U.S. Giving a bad job review to an outside source can have serious legal ramifications, and that's why calling former employers often garners little useful information. My company allows us to confirm term of employment, title and salary - only. We are instructed to say that our refusal to discuss job performance is neither an endorsement of nor a condemnation of the candidate - it's strictly neutral information we provide.

I would encourage you not to relay the kind of responses you've received about her, especially since they were references she didn't provide. It's up to her to figure out why she keeps getting turned down for jobs and surely she already has a clue.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8780 posts, RR: 24
Reply 8, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3840 times:

Quoting Fly2HMO (Reply 1):

I personally however find it pretty aggravating when I'm just told "we found somebody better". It's pretty insulting to my intelligence. I much rather be told specifically why I was not chosen instead of just being blown off with no explanation. I also know lots of people that don't give a rats ass either way. But I appreciate constructive criticism, though most kids nowadays take it too damn personal. Just be tactful and upfront about it and you'll be fine. If she throws an immature rant tell her she's giving you even more reasons to NOT hire her.
Quoting mbmbos (Reply 7):
I'm assuming you're talking about hiring someone in the U.S. Giving a bad job review to an outside source can have serious legal ramifications, and that's why calling former employers often garners little useful information.

Bingo. You were able to "get the goods" on this girl because she worked (if I understand correctly) in a shop where you could easily approach her collegues as a member of the public. Most of the time you can't do that.

I agree entirely that it would be far better for everyone involved to tell the person straight up "I didn't hire you because your references came back negative" or whatever. But as mbmbos says, in today's legalistic society for of idiots who think the world owes them something, you can get yourself into trouble like that. What if the girl goes back to her old employer and starts harassing people, or finds some schyster lawyer to file a defamation suit against them? Her employer then has grounds to go after you legally, because you should not have told her.

Which all comes back to tort reform. If we banned the practice of lawyers working on a contingency basis, (where they get 50% of any settlement or awards, basically turning the justice system into a lottery), you'd get rid of much of this problem.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinestlgph From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 9266 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3833 times:

Quoting njxc500 (Thread starter):
So I go in to this place, order a bagel, and I ask the nice young man at the counter if he knows her. It was not busy so we talked for a couple minutes, turns out this girl quit without notice, was unmotivated while working there, and was not liked in general.

With what was said above, you pretty potentially broke several HR laws.

Your response is "we are not able to offer you employment at this time, thank you for your interest."

End story.



Eternal darkness we all should dread. It's hard to party when you're dead.
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2247 posts, RR: 13
Reply 10, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3816 times:

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 7):
I'm assuming you're talking about hiring someone in the U.S.

Wow, that's quite harsh. I've only heard of the opposite - that the employer is careful not to tell why the application wasn't successfull. In countries with a strong legal protection of racial and other minorities (like disabled people), it could lead to litigation against the firm offering the job.

It's especially important in cases where the law tells the employer to use "reverse discrimination" - to favor a disabled over another applicant if they are equally qualified.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3617 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3816 times:

I was not aware that giving a recommendation (whether negative or positive) can get you into trouble in the US. As a general rule, people should first contact their former employer, letting them know (or asking for permission in case of specific company rules) that they are going to use them as references in the future. In my opinion, someone is not very smart to list as references prior employers who will probably give negative feedback. I do not see how there would be legal problems if that girl listed her previous employer as someone you could contact for a reference.

Quoting stlgph (Reply 9):
With what was said above, you pretty potentially broke several HR laws.

This may indeed be a problem as she did not list any of her ex-colleagues as references but her employer only. I think something along the lines of Reply #6 "We could only get a confirmation of you working there and nothing more" would suffice. If you still want to be somewhat specific for your reasons of not hiring her, there is no harm in saying that, at least she knows what part of her future applications she should improve.


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3807 times:

Quoting njxc500 (Thread starter):
We asked about this girl, all the manager would say "all I can say is she worked here".

That is all they can say under the HR privacy laws.

Quoting njxc500 (Thread starter):
So I go in to this place, order a bagel, and I ask the nice young man at the counter if he knows her. It was not busy so we talked for a couple minutes, turns out this girl quit without notice, was unmotivated while working there, and was not liked in general.

   What you did was illegal. You can get SUED by the girl if she found out that you went to her place of work asking around about her. And you can lose big time on that. You are now between a rock and a very hard place.

Quoting stlgph (Reply 9):
With what was said above, you pretty potentially broke several HR laws.

   Yeah, good luck with that if the girl finds out. The chances are, she probably knows now. She may have have some friends still working at her old employer. You shouldn't of done that.

Quoting stlgph (Reply 9):
"we are not able to offer you employment at this time, thank you for your interest."

A lot of employers nowadays send out letters with this example. This is what I would do.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2247 posts, RR: 13
Reply 13, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3777 times:

As a (often) kind and generous person, I'd try to give some help.

I would invite her over for a talk, but also write that you are very cautious because of the reference.

Then tell her of the feedback you got - of course the one you got from the reference listed.) Ask her out about her version, and question her. "Are you really sure you did a good job there? Can you explain the feedback I got from your reference?". And tell her to re-apply in 6, 8 or 12 months.



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8780 posts, RR: 24
Reply 14, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3769 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):

What you did was illegal. You can get SUED by the girl if she found out that you went to her place of work asking around about her. And you can lose big time on that. You are now between a rock and a very hard place.
Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):

Yeah, good luck with that if the girl finds out. The chances are, she probably knows now. She may have have some friends still working at her old employer. You shouldn't of done that.

Isn't that the whole problem here? Yes, it may have been illegal, but it's not wrong. How can the government tell me that I am not allowed to inform myself in regards to a potential employee - a person who, if employed, could really screw me up by stealing from me, or ruining my reputation by showing a bad attitude towards my customers, or not being diligent about her work so that others have to fix her mistakes behind her, etc? I have a natural right to chose who I want to hire and to use selection criteria relevant to the job.

I should not take into account if she has children, is divorced, lives in a shed or a mansion, is a lesbian, because those have nothing to do with the job. But if she's a shitty worker, I should know about it.

The problem here appears to be laws that go too far, not the perspective employer.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8525 posts, RR: 14
Reply 15, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3757 times:
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Employment laws differ widely around the world, so I won't presume to tell you what is and is not appropriate in your situation, but I would recommend that you check with someone who is familiar with your local situation before doing anything 'non-standard' even with the best of intentions.

I know that for many companies , regardless of the ex employees performance it is standard to offer nothing more than a strictly neutral 'Ms/Mr X was employed by us from "date" to "date" '. As you say, this tells you very little ( although, I would think that as a rule of thumb, the wider apart the dates are the less likely that they had a problem with the employee - but even there you have to be careful, sometimes it just means that it took a long time for them to get caught doing something wrong!)



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 16, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 3747 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
But if she's a shitty worker, I should know about it.

Why should you know? It isn't your business. Personally, I wouldn't want my "new" employer to know about what I did or did not do at my "current" place of employment. I have a right to privacy. If you really want to know the type of worker a person is, that is why you require at least 3-4 references or don't hire. But then again, having references is kind of risky sometimes. You never know who you can trust nowadays.....

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
The problem here appears to be laws that go too far....

I disagree. The only reason why is because I believe in second chances and fair chances.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
How can the government tell me that I am not allowed to inform myself in regards to a potential employee - a person who, if employed, could really screw me up by stealing from me, or ruining my reputation by showing a bad attitude towards my customers, or not being diligent about her work so that others have to fix her mistakes behind her, etc?

That is why we have probationary periods. One has 30 days of protection after hired (meaning they cannot be terminated during the first 30 days) and then after that, if the employer does not like the applicant, they can terminate the applicant for any reason with or without cause as long as it is not linked to any type of discrimination based on sex, religion, race, etc etc..... That is the beauty of probationary periods. Generally, most employers are 90 days, some are 6 months (Like at AS) and up to a year depending on job function.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
I have a natural right to chose who I want to hire and to use selection criteria relevant to the job.

Of course you do. No one is denying that right. But laws are put in place to protect both, the employee and the employer....and it generally favors the employer than the employee. In rare cases, like this thread, unfortunately it favors the would be employee. HR laws were violated and she has the right to sue if she finds out regardless if she was a lousy worker at her previous job or not. Both the would-be employer and the former employer would be at fault here.

Could you imagine the type of chaos we would have if we did not have the current employment laws? It would be extremely hard to get a job anywhere and many, many people would be out of work. The unemployment rate would be through the roof!!!! That is not good.

[Edited 2012-03-01 11:58:35]


A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8780 posts, RR: 24
Reply 17, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 3690 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 16):
Why should you know? It isn't your business

Like hell it isn't!!! When I hire an employee, I am entrusting them with my business, my livelihood. A single employee can sink a company.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 16):
Personally, I wouldn't want my "new" employer to know about what I did or did not do at my "current" place of employment.

Maybe it's a generational thing, but I came up in my professional career having been taught "The New York Times Rule". You are never, ever to do, say or write anything in your professional career that you would mind if they splattered it all over the front page of the New York Times. I believe I have lived up to that standard, and so should everyone else.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 16):

That is why we have probationary periods.

Which is all fine and dandy, but you have already spent money training that person (even if it's fellow colleagues simply showing them how to do stuff), and now have to restart the search process that you had stopped.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 16):
Could you imagine the type of chaos we would have if we did not have the current employment laws? It would be extremely hard to get a job anywhere and many, many people would be out of work. The unemployment rate would be through the roof!!!! That is not good.

Getting carried away with the hyperbole, aren't we? I think the vast majority of people out there are fine, decent people who work as hard as they can. These laws that you speak of are not there to protect them. They are there to protect the wastoids who drift from job to job, because nobody will shake them by the shoulders and tell them to wake the F... up and get it together. These are the guys who I think made up 90% of the OWS crowd who were out there demanding work but chased away those people who went to OWS to organize a little job fair and actually offer them work.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8162 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 3688 times:

She has a degree? Ask for a copy of her grades on the schools form. Look at the various courses she took and the grades she obtained.

As for the company that only confirmed employment, that is the policy of many companies these days because of legal exposure if they honestly talk about undesirable employees. Sometimes all you get is a certification of employment. THe problem is that outstanding employees sometimes get passed over by a policy that applies to everyone.

Another issue that needs to be understood is that many times a female staff member is hit upon by a manager, or someone else. That is often the reason for a woman leaving a job without notice. Other games are just as evident when it comes to not providing notice.

Another thing to remember. The applicant has a degree, but has worked in a fast food place because that is all there was. That might be one of the reasons why her attitude was not the best. What was her degree in? What were her actual jobs after getting her degree? And what job is she applying for?


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 19, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3652 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
Like hell it isn't!!!

The law disagrees with you, unfortunately.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
When I hire an employee, I am entrusting them with my business, my livelihood.

I understand where you are going with this, and I do agree. But the law is the law.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
A single employee can sink a company.

True, but not always.....

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
You are never, ever to do, say or write anything in your professional career that you would mind if they splattered it all over the front page of the New York Times.

Doesn't that contradict everything you are saying on this subject??? Such as:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
But if she's a shitty worker, I should know about it.

So, which is it? You want to know about your would-be employee or do you not want others to know about your work history in depth?? You cannot have it both ways.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
you have already spent money training that person (even if it's fellow colleagues simply showing them how to do stuff), and now have to restart the search process that you had stopped.

It is like that in every industry. If a worker is not what they advertised themselves to be and/or not up to the company's standards then they are shown the door. Simple as that.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
Getting carried away with the hyperbole, aren't we?

It is a fact of life. It is what it is in every industry.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
These laws that you speak of are not there to protect them.

Yes, they are. Look up the Equal Opportunity Laws. Look at what the EEOC does. The Fair Pay Act, etc etc....

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
They are there to protect the wastoids who drift from job to job, because nobody will shake them by the shoulders and tell them to wake the F... up and get it together.

I think that is the unions fault. They are the ones protecting these folks. But then again, you find these kinds of people everywhere in every industry. There is not much you can do about it. However, this thread isn't about unions.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
These are the guys who I think made up 90% of the OWS crowd who were out there demanding work but chased away those people who went to OWS to organize a little job fair and actually offer them work.

Everyone has the right to have a job, providing that they meet the criteria for such a job..... You don't want people living out on the street and causing all sorts of problems, do you?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 18):
She has a degree? Ask for a copy of her grades on the schools form.

The chances are, she probably doesn't have one. I would contact the Admissions office of said school to verify that she does, in fact, have a specific degree.

But then again, I would hire this person anyway, put her on a strict probationary period (100 days) with bi-weekly reviews. If she is not up to par, it would be the easy out in getting rid of her rather than getting caught with snooping around and finding out about this person a little bit more from co-workers, risking getting sued by this girl. Hiring her and making her go through a probationary period is the easy way out, IMO. It is cheaper.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinephotopilot From Canada, joined Jul 2002, 2704 posts, RR: 18
Reply 20, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3646 times:

Quoting mbmbos (Reply 7):
Giving a bad job review to an outside source can have serious legal ramifications, and that's why calling former employers often garners little useful information. My company allows us to confirm term of employment, title and salary - only. We are instructed to say that our refusal to discuss job performance is neither an endorsement of nor a condemnation of the candidate - it's strictly neutral information we provide.

Absolutely right. Many of the companies where I've worked as a Manager have this exact policy. We stress that this is a completely neutral reference of employment, dates, and salary RANGE only. The rest is considered private information.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 12):
What you did was illegal. You can get SUED by the girl if she found out that you went to her place of work asking around about her. And you can lose big time on that. You are now between a rock and a very hard place.

At this point, the best advice might be to contact a good lawyer. There's a better than average chance you might be needing one. Sorry, but that's the fact of today's employment world.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
Isn't that the whole problem here? Yes, it may have been illegal, but it's not wrong. How can the government tell me that I am not allowed to inform myself in regards to a potential employee - a person who, if employed, could really screw me up by stealing from me, or ruining my reputation by showing a bad attitude towards my customers, or not being diligent about her work so that others have to fix her mistakes behind her, etc? I have a natural right to chose who I want to hire and to use selection criteria relevant to the job.

Ok.... you talked to a young man behind the counter. Tell us. Did he have the right to speak for the company? Was he perhaps a jilted boyfriend or a guy that had made a pass at the girl and been rejected and now is seeking to trash her.... when the complete opposite of what he says might indeed be the truth? Maybe she quit without notice because her former boss made an inappropriate pass/grab/assault upon her and she chose to leave rather than get the police involved. The trouble is... YOU DON'T KNOW. You could be facing a HUGE settlement if you took this unauthorized information at face value from someone not authorized to give it.... and who wasn't told that the information they were providing in an informal "chat" was in fact being used as a job reference.
Between a rock and a hard place???? Heck, at this point I'd say you're fully under the rock. Try to extricate yourself with some dignity and the least legal problems at this point. That's why I suggest full legal advice. The few dollars you spend on a lawyer might save you a fortune later.


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 21, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3625 times:

Quoting photopilot (Reply 20):
Heck, at this point I'd say you're fully under the rock.

I hope you are referring to the OP and not me. With that in mind, he should have thought of that before he went off on his own. If someone had their own business, they should have known the HR laws we have here in the U.S. before starting up their own business and wanting people to work for them.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 19):
I would contact the Admissions office of said school to verify that she does, in fact, have a specific degree.

I forgot to add.... This, I think is one of the legal ways to find out about someone without getting sued. Airlines do this all the time when they are about to hire someone. They also hire investigative services companies to do the background checks for them. I think that is as far as you can get when finding out about someone legally without the due recourse by an applicant. But the employment laws, whether we agree with them or not, still have to be followed.

Quoting photopilot (Reply 20):
Try to extricate yourself with some dignity and the least legal problems at this point. That's why I suggest full legal advice. The few dollars you spend on a lawyer might save you a fortune later.

Or.... she can just be hired temporarily and terminated when her services are no longer required.... almost similar to what I said in reply 19. It's like getting rid of a potential lawsuit in exchange for temporary employment. The OP would still win in this scenario.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineStabilator From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 694 posts, RR: 0
Reply 22, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3610 times:

Quoting photopilot (Reply 20):

Dreadnought isn't the one needing legal advice. I think he is just advocating to an extent the viewpoint of the OP, i.e wanting to know as much as possible about an applicant.

To the OP, just hope the person who waited on you isnt in communication with your applicant. And don't mention her poor reference.



So we beat on against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8780 posts, RR: 24
Reply 23, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3608 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 19):

I understand where you are going with this, and I do agree. But the law is the law.

Then to quote Dickens, "then the law is an ass." Just because something "is the law" does not make it right. Did you know that it is illegal to run out of gas in Youngstown OH?

http://www.conwaygreene.com/Youngsto....dll?f=templates&fn=main-h.htm&2.0

Do a Quick Search for section 331.44.

Just because something is the law does not prevent it being stupid.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 19):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
You are never, ever to do, say or write anything in your professional career that you would mind if they splattered it all over the front page of the New York Times.

Doesn't that contradict everything you are saying on this subject??? Such as:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 14):
But if she's a shitty worker, I should know about it.

So, which is it? You want to know about your would-be employee or do you not want others to know about your work history in depth?? You cannot have it both ways.

Not at all. I never said that my work history should be secret. As long as it does not interfere with professional secrecy, I have no problem with people answering about the diligence with which I did my work, attitude at work etc.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 19):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 17):
These laws that you speak of are not there to protect them.

Yes, they are. Look up the Equal Opportunity Laws. Look at what the EEOC does. The Fair Pay Act, etc etc....

We aren't talking about those laws. We are talking specifically about the law that prevents a prospective employer from finding out whether a prospect is a fuck-up or not.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 19):

Everyone has the right to have a job, providing that they meet the criteria for such a job..... You don't want people living out on the street and causing all sorts of problems, do you?

Everyone has the right to LOOK for a job, not have one. And as I've said before I don't have an issue with safety nets, as long as they are not excessive.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 24, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 3593 times:

I went back and re-read the OP's post.... and I should answer these questions:

Quoting njxc500 (Thread starter):
How much should I tell her?

After the snooping around you did, I wouldn't tell her a damn thing.

Quoting njxc500 (Thread starter):
Or do I simply say, we are going with another applicant.

I would, yes. But in a legal and tactful way.

Quoting njxc500 (Thread starter):
For Example:
Your references all came back negative.

No.

Quoting njxc500 (Thread starter):
You lied during your interview.

What did she lie about exactly?

Quoting njxc500 (Thread starter):
You quit your last job without notice.


A huge NO! That will just give her more of a reason to sue you. She would be like "How in the hell did you find that information out?" Plus, that is not your business. The only way that it makes it your business is if she volunteerly (however you spell it) discloses that to you. Then she cannot sue you.

This is why interviewers set up questions like "What was the most you liked about your job?" or "What made you leave your last job?" and "What were your weaknesses during your last job?"

Quoting njxc500 (Thread starter):
Part of me wants to do this kid a favor and tell her she won't get a job in this field until she at least has a good reference.

You don't want to do that. That is not your place and not your call and it is very unprofessional. You are not her parents.

Quoting Stabilator (Reply 22):
To the OP, just hope the person who waited on you isnt in communication with your applicant. And don't mention her poor reference.

  

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 23):
Just because something "is the law" does not make it right.

I also agree with you on that. But again, the law is the law.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 23):
Did you know that it is illegal to run out of gas in Youngstown OH?

Interesting. What does this have to do with the thread?    How does this help the OP?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 23):
Do a Quick Search for section 331.44.

No need to since this is off topic.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 23):
Everyone has the right to LOOK for a job, not have one.

This is where I need to correct myself. Everyone has the right to look for a job, however once a person has earned the job, they have to prove themselves to earn the privilege of keeping said job.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 23):
We are talking specifically about the law that prevents a prospective employer from finding out whether a prospect is a fuck-up or not.

You are keeping people from getting a job, hence why I brought up the high unemployment. We don't want that. I should also state that not all jobs are one size fits all.

Laws are set to protect both, the employer and the employee/applicant.

[Edited 2012-03-01 14:18:08]


A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
25 Post contains images Flighty : Absolutely. The dignified thing to do is to say their references weren't very good. Nobody says that, but they are liars when they omit the reason. S
26 AirframeAS : Why would you want to do that. Sounds a bit unprofessional to me telling her to straighten her act if she wants a job anywhere. It isn't his place to
27 Dreadnought : So what is the place to tell her that. How more appropriate can you get than being able to tell the person honestly "This is why I'm not hiring you",
28 lewis : If even a quarter of potential employers that I applied to when I was younger gave me an honest reason for not extending an offer instead of the gene
29 Flighty : You know what I think is unprofessional? Lies and not answering direct business questions. Oh well.
30 redflyer : Not a damn thing. You don't owe her any explanations. I'm curious, but what laws were broken? What would be the claim on such a suit? All he did was
31 lewis : Very true, but the OP has already stated: Which is quite admirable in today's world.
32 aa757first : What law? None, because this isn't true (in most jurisdictions, at least). An employer cannot defame an employee by making knowingly false statements
33 redflyer : Unfortunately, it is not up to an employer to teach our youth good interview habits or work ethics that should have been taught at home and at school
34 Post contains images AirframeAS : Employers don't say that so that they don't have to have a confrontation and it protects them from unwanted problems during the process. HR does not
35 njxc500 : Than you everyone for the input and spirited discussion. Here's what I am struggling with now: She provided an employer company name, not a manager na
36 stasisLAX : Tell her NOTHING. Simply decline her (preferably by mail, so you don't slip up while speaking to her!) Any company that I've worked for (and they are
37 lewis : Again, as I stated before, I agree that they don't HAVE to but it is just a nice gesture to give a proper reason for the rejection. Some call it feed
38 aa757first : It isn't a wise idea to go snooping around someone's private life, but asking her former manager if she was a good employee is a good idea. Sounds li
39 stasisLAX : The only time I have been allowed to provide interview feedback to any job candidate is when the candidate is an internal candidate, meaning they are
40 AirframeAS : It is now more common to not give a manager or a supervisor name these days. Don't be shocked if people don't do that anymore. Managers and superviso
41 lewis : Unless your feedback includes religion, race and other no-nos, I do not see what kind of lawsuit you see could come your way if you reject the candid
42 redflyer : My apologies; I hope I didn't come across as obstinate in my response. I completely agree with you that it would have been a nice gesture. And if a p
43 lewis : Really no need for it, I was just trying to make my point clear enough. I do believe the safest bet is for an employer to not give a reason at all, a
44 aa757first : Nothing stops you from getting sued. I suppose you'd be in trouble if you asked about her religion, but you didn't. No one here can point to a specif
45 DocLightning : You're 25, right? Anyway, did she lie on her resume? That is something valid to disclose. I think references, though, are held in confidence by tradi
46 Post contains images Pellegrine : Someone should tell this girl to use a reference checking service. Meaning you get a company (or just a friend who can fake it) to call your reference
47 Post contains images AirCanada787 : I'm not sure why I am jumping into this topic so late but I was actually talking about a similar situation with a friend the other day. While in schoo
48 AirframeAS : You are going off base here, you know exactly that is not what I meant. Your question is not even worthy enough to respond to. He should be in deep d
49 njxc500 : Duly noted, and I think we can all agree on this one. MN law prevents the previous employer from being sued, specifically since 2004. The employee wo
50 DocLightning : Been in exactly that situation. Was very honest during the interview that my current workplace was unpleasant and that I would not be leaving on good
51 Post contains links photopilot : "There are two ways that you can file a lawsuit against your former employer for giving out negative references about you. One way is by suing for de
52 darksnowynight : As many others have said, this is a terrible idea. No answer is required. Correct. Nothing potential about it. A good deal of liability now exists he
53 Post contains links aa757first : You said you can't be fired within 30 days of your hire. I really don't know what you mean at all. That's probably policy at unionized airlines, but
54 StarAC17 : Sometimes that is just the truth and often an interviewer will look at the personality of an employer and see how that would suit with the current wo
55 Pellegrine : I don't care what MN law says. I said the employee (giving the derogatory statements) can be sued, and in fact you can also. I made no comment about
56 darksnowynight : I only spent about ten minutes reading that, but I didn't see anything that supports your earlier assertion. The crux of that case was that the previ
57 zippyjet : These days, former employers and even you have to watch it when it comes to references and getting information. Check your state's employment laws. If
58 photopilot : I know how I'd answer this. "I'm sorry, but my Facebook page(s) is private and only for Family and a very select group of close personal friends. I'm
59 zippyjet : I actually heard this strategy/idea on several different radio interviews of different IT and HR experts. I personally would be taken a back a little
60 Pyrex : Not true at all. You either have work ethic or you don't, the specific job is meaningless - if something is worth doing it is worth doing well. I sho
61 Pellegrine : Playing devil's advocate. If I had an advanced degree, MA/MS/JD/Doctor etc, it would piss me off daily if I had to work in fast food. I'd probably ge
62 AirframeAS : But why would you want to do that? Why would you want a reference from a hostile workplace? Gawd, I wouldn't! We established that already, especially
63 BlueJuice : Having hired many people over the course of my career, simply state that her qualification do not meet the needs of the role at this time. Thank her f
64 Flighty : It may be the only sensible action, but it is nevertheless kind of an absurd letter. It's not really a communication. Hopefully companies don't go ou
65 AirframeAS : This is what a lot of companies are doing nowadays. The best way to avoid confrontation and they don't even have to disclose as to why they did not p
66 aa757first : Right, they don't have a duty to do so, but they can't be extremely dishonest in either direction. Sorry, that comment wasn't direct to you. I was ta
67 Pellegrine : You know what's funny in this thread to me? The amount of posters ready to vilify this lady seeking employment rather than the opposite. I think it is
68 Post contains images swissy : It is simple If big brother is here on the a.net the answer is: SURE 100% other wise... no f... way. Are there any $$$ figures out there on how much f
69 aa757first : Right, because the practices of the employer here aren't very alarming at all. I'd fully expect a future employer to call my past employer and ask ho
70 AirframeAS : I dunno. But as you stated, airlines here in the U.S. spend a lot of money doing research on a candidate during the hiring process with the FBI. I ca
71 garnetpalmetto : And then FERPA comes into play here. Schools can disclose directory information without the consent of a student, although not all schools will. When
72 AirframeAS : What does this mean? Students don't have directory information like teachers do in school districts.
73 garnetpalmetto : Some most certainly do - when I was both an undergrad and grad student you could search USC and NC State's student directories and find me. As for wh
74 AirframeAS : Pardon me. I thought you were speaking of primary and secondary schools, not Community Colleges or Universities. My apologies.
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