Sponsor Message:
Non Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
Greece: Problem Solved Or Extra Time?  
User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3314 posts, RR: 8
Posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 1686 times:

http://www.gulf-daily-news.com/NewsDetails.aspx?storyid=325420

So, if you have been watching the markets, you'll notice that there was a lot of anxious nail biting on whether Greece would convince creditors to take over 50% losses on their bonds. Indeed, the threshold was met and over 75% of creditors have agreed to take part in this swap. However, with Greece still struggling with 160% debt to GDP, an economy battered by recession and made worse by harsh (but needed) austerity measures, and that this is the second bailout Greece has had, has Greece finally solved its debt problem and on the road to recovery, or was this a gimmick by eurozone countries to buy more time until a thorough solution is found (if any)?


"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
22 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineQFA380 From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 2081 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1672 times:

While not completely abreast of the situation, I don't think we've seen the end just yet.

I think there are more structural issues at hand which cannot be fixed by bailouts or haircuts. The Euro has proven itself to be fundamentally flawed in its current form, because it takes away some aspects of a nations sovereignty while leaving others there that critically undermine the whole idea. Can't forget the rest of the PI(G)S too...

The demoralising thing is that (nearly) everyone is a loser in this situation no matter what happens. Seeing European pensions wiped out in the event of a default will hurt many who have not benefited at all from the prior recklessness of the Greek government, while on the other hand continued bailouts will only give those same people more debt themselves. Taking out debt to pay off debt is a vicious cycle.

And ordinary Greeks themselves are losing their future to hard austerity and income cuts, though they benefited through the good and will have to wear the consequences.

The only people who seem to be doing well are the banksters and politicians who will be saving their own behinds while royally screwing all of Europe and particularly Greece.

Then you read stories like this which take away any hope you have left. http://mjperry.blogspot.com.au/2012/...-bureaucracy-in-choking-greek.html

But thankfully, we all have capitalism to blame for this mess.  


User currently offlineswissy From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 1734 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1581 times:

Look at Greeks history?? Did they ever make it?

Cheerios,


User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3672 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1523 times:

Quoting einsteinboricua (Thread starter):

I don't think this is the end of it. People are talking about a future 3rd bail out that may be needed so the masters of the plan are not even sure themselves. There is also the issue of the upcoming elections. From one side, the ruling parties have agreed to keep up with the program but what happens if the people vote for the party that has made no such agreements? Only time will tell. I would guess that by mid-summer things will be clearer as it is the time when structural and economic improvements might start to show, if they ever do.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Thread starter):
by harsh (but needed) austerity measures

Allow me to disagree. Austerity and cutbacks are needed but for the time being they have been targeting the wrong group of people. The state is still unable to raise revenues and they have not been addressing the cause, all they have done was to over-tax the population that already paid their taxes through PAYE. People who cheated the system are still doing that with impunity. Having hospitals running out of gauze and other necessities while ministries still pay land-line phone bills in the millions (per month) is not my idea of "needed austerity".

Quoting swissy (Reply 2):
Look at Greeks history?? Did they ever make it?

Most of the times. In modern history, foreign intervention was always part of the mix.


User currently offlineswissy From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 1734 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1489 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 3):
Quoting swissy (Reply 2):
Look at Greeks history?? Did they ever make it?

Most of the times. In modern history, foreign intervention was always part of the mix.

Sure  .... what ever makes the day   I guess... only the Greeks can make it right... united, accepting facts the sh.. that flew in the past wont fly anymore. Until every Greek is understanding and willing to make it work nothing will change...still do not understand how on earth the EU could be that blind...

But hey that is just my personal opinion   and yes I voted twice against the CH joining the EU club... I am all for a united Europe/World but not at any cost... people/citizens have to understand what is at stake  ...There is tons of $$$ in Greece but they are not to many people willing doing their fair share or make the "sacrifice" for a better future...

Cheerios,


User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3672 posts, RR: 5
Reply 5, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1485 times:

Quoting swissy (Reply 4):
There is tons of $$$

Sure there is, nicely turned into real estate in London and some billions here and there in accounts in Switzerland, Lichtenstein and other offshore locations. I can only wish that the Greek elite repatriates at least some of it but I won't hold my breath.


User currently offlineType-Rated From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 6, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1483 times:

Don't worry, Greece still has plenty of time to knock out any gains our stock market has made due to their financial incompetance. I am so tired of hearing "Greece may be having more financial problems" and that very day our stock market plunges another 150 points or so.

User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10925 posts, RR: 37
Reply 7, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1482 times:

They can't keep going one bailout after another. Somebody's going to have to pay.
Selling Greek Islands off to who-ever can afford them is not enough.

Papademos is a technocrat. He does not care about the welfare of the people.

I wonder what will happen. Will the people revolt and the situation become really explosive? Will there be a revolution? Will there be a military coup the same as they had in 1967? Will Greece have to leave the E.U. and the Euro?

Big question mark. It could be either or any of these.

I am sad to see Greece in such state.

 



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineswissy From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 1734 posts, RR: 4
Reply 8, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1479 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 5):
Quoting swissy (Reply 4):
There is tons of $$$

Sure there is, nicely turned into real estate in London and some billions here and there in accounts in Switzerland, Lichtenstein and other offshore locations. I can only wish that the Greek elite repatriates at least some of it but I won't hold my breath.

Bingo Lewis  , being a Swiss cheese, I am pissed to no end with these f... Swiss banks... the little guys have to report where they got the 20$ from and these farts? sweet f.. all

Cheerios,


User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3672 posts, RR: 5
Reply 9, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1477 times:

Quoting swissy (Reply 8):
Bingo Lewis , being a Swiss cheese, I am pissed to no end with these f... Swiss banks... the little guys have to report where they got the 20$ from and these farts? sweet f.. all

It is funny though that the Fin Minister is "begging" for people to repatriate their money while at the same time allegations are coming in about politicians sending out suspicious wires. Waiting to see how these investigations will turn out.


User currently offlineswissy From Switzerland, joined Jan 2005, 1734 posts, RR: 4
Reply 10, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1471 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 9):
It is funny though that the Fin Minister is "begging" for people to repatriate their money while at the same time allegations are coming in about politicians sending out suspicious wires. Waiting to see how these investigations will turn out.

I hear you  ... I can't get a Swiss bank account anymore in Switzerland, you know a simple one, just like one I had before I immigrated to Canada... I do not hide income in Canada, I pay what I have to pay legally...and I cannot have a family travel account over there...   it is the double standards... move 7 figures and up you are fine  

cheerios,


User currently offlineiakobos From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 3316 posts, RR: 34
Reply 11, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 3 days ago) and read 1456 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 7):
Papademos is a technocrat. He does not care about the welfare of the people.

Nice non-sensical cliché  
Quoting lewis (Reply 9):
Waiting to see how these investigations will turn out.

Dont loose your time Lewis, since everyone "high up" there has a hand in the same basket, the only thing the investigation will produce is dust.
If an intrepid judge, ...if any, would really shake the basket, chances are he would quickly end up as food for the octopus.


Quoting lewis (Reply 3):
The state is still unable to raise revenues and they have not been addressing the cause, all they have done was to over-tax the population

Reducing its expenses and impose taxes that are felt by the poor and the slowly disappearing mid-income classes.
But right, the causes are not adressed (yet ?), this cannot take place before years.

Quoting lewis (Reply 3):
People who cheated the system are still doing that with impunity.

They are more cautious and will become slightly better citizens.
If caught (common people of course) the penalties are mind boggling.


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10925 posts, RR: 37
Reply 12, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1400 times:

Breaking

Moody's: Greece has defaulted

10 March, 2012, 03:49
Moody's Investors Service considers Greece to have defaulted per its default definitions. The announcement comes despite Athens reaching a deal with private creditors for a bond exchange that will shave %u20AC107 billion from its %u20AC350 billion debt.

*The agency pointed out that even though 85.8 per cent of the holders of Greek-law bonds had signed to the deal, the exercise of collective action clauses that Athens is applying to its bonds will force the remaining bondholders to participate.

http://rt.com/news/moody-s-greece-default-debt-241/


and from Forbes -

ISDA Says Greece In Default, CDS Will Trigger
3/09/2012 @ 2:51PM

UPDATE 2 (2:48 p.m.): ISDA has now declared that Greece%u2019s restructuring does represent a default, meaning credit default swaps will trigger.




There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14132 posts, RR: 62
Reply 13, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1373 times:

Interestingly Greece has quite a big military:

Alone the airforce has more than 500 aircraft (this includes SAR and firefighting aircraft, but does Greece need 150 F-16s or 45 Mirage 2000?)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenic_Air_Force

Similarly the Greek Army has more than 1000 main battle tanks (mainly Leopard 1 and 2, though a few older American models are still in use)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_equipment_of_the_Hellenic_Army

The Army has 90.000 soldiers (many conscripts) in peacetime.

I understand that during Cold War they were guarding the NATO front against an invasion from Yugoslavia, Albania and Bulgaria, but now it seems to me that it is more a p#ssing match with the Turks.

I also understand that the Greek military have a reputation of carrying out military coups if the officers are not happy with the civilian government and cuts in the military might trigger exactly this.

Jan


User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5603 posts, RR: 15
Reply 14, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1359 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 7):
hey can't keep going one bailout after another. Somebody's going to have to pay.

But, Europe will continue to because they can't allow a Euro nation to spiral into default/depression etc. They'll hgave to expel Greece.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 7):
He does not care about the welfare of the people

It is quite possible that the State caring too much for the welfare of the people is what brought Greece to this place.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 13):
Interestingly Greece has quite a big military:

Always been a hedge against the Turks.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3314 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (2 years 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1354 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 12):

That isn't really news. All the major credit rating agencies said it would technically be a default if this swap went through. It's like going to the bank to pay for your house and saying "I'm out of money. Charge me only about 40% of what I owe you."

The question now is what rating will those new bonds have and whether the Greek economy will start to improve.



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3672 posts, RR: 5
Reply 16, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 1233 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 13):
Alone the airforce has more than 500 aircraft (this includes SAR and firefighting aircraft, but does Greece need 150 F-16s or 45 Mirage 2000?)

I had no idea they were that many. Are they all still active?

As for the need of those aircraft, I do believe .they are excessive in numbers. But, I would ask that question to the peeps living in areas like Agathonissi, Fournoi and other "grey areas" in the Aegean who witness dogfights over their heads on a daily basis. Hell, even inhabitants of Athens can witness Turkish frigates cruising near by! As long as Greece's allies (and especially the EU, since Greek borders/territories = EU) do not take a firm stance in guaranteeing Greece's borders and sovereignty based on international laws and as long as the casus belli against Greece is in place, the situation will not change one bit. Stupid decisions from both sides that cause unnecessary expenditure. But in the end, I'd rather have my country have a chance at defending itself if it ever comes to that, instead of relying on its "allies"

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 14):
It is quite possible that the State caring too much for the welfare of the people is what brought Greece to this place.

The state never cared much about the welfare of the people. Even during the "good times", public services were awful. Just because some things are offered for free does not mean they actually work well for the people, be it public education, public healthcare or anything else.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 7):

Papademos is a technocrat. He does not care about the welfare of the people.

I am not a fan of the guy, especially considering the fact that he was head of the Bank of Greece during the country's entry to the EZ, so I am sure that he was involved in the "number fudging". On the other hand, I just cannot see anyone fitter to be Prime Minister right now, which is sad. At least he is not affiliated with any political parties so he may just be the one who will get things going.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27255 posts, RR: 60
Reply 17, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 1203 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 16):

It actually suits the EU to have a strong Greek armed forces and navy etc... Greece is the last stop of the EU and therefore must protect its borders. Greece has been advised by the EU to increase vigilance on the porous borders to stop various illegal trades and illegal immigrants from using Greece as a transit point to the Western EU states.

With regards the current issue June is the key date to watch for . It will be the implementation of the next wave of major cuts . The average wage now is €20 per day so anyone saying that austerity is not being faced by the Greek people are totally ignorant and removed from the reality on the ground.


User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5603 posts, RR: 15
Reply 18, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 1192 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 16):
The state never cared much about the welfare of the people. Even during the "good times", public services were awful. Just because some things are offered for free does not mean they actually work well for the people, be it public education, public healthcare or anything else.


Pretty much my point exactly, but maybe not well made. The State has poured money into social (read that as jobs programs) programs that really do not help the people. That costs money for very little return.

I have sampled the Greek social program bureaucracy, and have found it very wanting in services, but overly abundant in cheery people who tell you what line to stand in next to get the next stamp on your papaerwork.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10925 posts, RR: 37
Reply 19, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1147 times:

E.U. leaders are playing with bailouts while the people of Greece are becoming desperate and need food. A parallel society is being created so people can eat and find shelters.
This is dangerous. Hungry people will revolt.

Greece on the breadline: amid the fury, solidarity
Jon Henley goes to meet Greeks who have responded to austerity with innovation and resourcefulness as well as anger

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012...breadline-social-strife-solidarity


Greece on the breadline: the children of Athens too hungry to do PE
Jon Henley is in Athens finding out how ordinary Greeks are pulling together to cope amid the financial meltdown

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/blog...reece-breadline-hungry-children-pe


Greece on the breadline: 'We are kicking homeless pregnant women on to the streets'
Jon Henley meets a woman who has decided to do something – help the unemployed improve their skills and self-confidence

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/blog/...e-volunteers-moved-homeless-plight

 Wow!



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27255 posts, RR: 60
Reply 20, posted (2 years 8 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 1130 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 19):
Jon Henley goes to meet Greeks who have responded to austerity with innovation and resourcefulness as well as anger

And thats the only good point really. During the boom times people got greedy , removed themselves from these type of ''pulling together'' situations just like they did in Ireland in my local community. Now in my area people are starting to set up these groups / social gatherings and looking after the eldery etc.... If any good comes of this it will be this . Ive read daily and heard from first hand experience the things normal everyday Greeks are doing to help their fellow citizens and it brings some kind of comfort that the social fabric has not been lost totally.


User currently offlineMillwallSean From Singapore, joined Apr 2008, 1284 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 862 times:

Personally I just don't understand why certain countries needs several bailouts and keeps having a lot of hidden issues even after a round or two of so called austerity measures.
Look at the sales of assets. Going really well they achieved one out of 80 sales...

It's also hard to understand why we constant see new surprises in the Greek financial budget. It's like a cat and mouse game. That to me just shows that the politicians refuse to be honest and upfront with its people and the rest of the EU.

Deep down if you want change you have to do what the Estonians and Latvians did in 2008. What the Icelandic people did after their collapse. It hurts, it hurts really bad. But do it and do it swift, no more hidden surprises bring it all up to the surface, be honest to the people and after two-three years things slowly starts to get better.

Greece seem to be financial responsibility by a thousand cuts. I don't see a real will to deal with the issues, not even a will among the politicians to come clean and say sorry. We have screwed this up badly and promised things we didn't have money for. We did this to win elections and out of good will but it wasn't sustainable. Now we have to roll back all those reforms and live within our means.
It's really horrible for those dependant upon the government but where has the idea come from that a government can pay out a lot more than it earns in revenue?

I feel for the ordinary Greeks. They will of course bear the burnt of it. But the ruling classes in Greece needs to seriously wake up and understand this isn't a political game or a farce. This is real and Greece needs to do the right thing and match debit with credit. Time to right the wrong.

Yeah youngest retirement age in Europe doesn't do any favours nor does the top dog position in missed tax revenue. What was it the survey made found, that 26% of government expenditure went to people who didn't exist or had passed away. There needs to be a mentality change and not a society where others are blamed for what is a Greek problem.

Sometimes I just wanna scream its not someone elses problem, its not someone elses fault and its not about resisting change or trying to negotiate a smoother deal or cheat the system yet again. That will just come back to bite Greece in the tail.
To get out of this mess the politicians must accept they have erred and take the consequences of previous actions and change their previous behaviour to one where there is accountability and financial prudence.



No One Likes Us - We Dont Care.
User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7508 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (2 years 8 months 1 week 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 843 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 3):
From one side, the ruling parties have agreed to keep up with the program but what happens if the people vote for the party that has made no such agreements?

As with the Irish vote on the EU treaty if it ever comes to a victory it will never stand, the international community will find a way to have another election called which will result in the true intentions of the Greek people. Greece has accepted the EU mandated bailout and its conditions.

As for the size of the Greek military, 500 planes, 1,000 tanks and number of ships being excessive, they can be cut to save money.
One caveat based on my line of thinking, 500 planes is at least 800+ pilots, after all each plane is not for a single pilot, then a minimum of what 3 ground crew per plane, then 1,000 tanks with at least 4 crew thats 4,000, then the maintenance personnel for each tank, then the ships, etc. etc. etc. Now when you consider that for the planes their officers / pilots are usually from the "educated class" with wealthy and influential families, the maintenance folks, the rest of the army personnel and you are talking about putting thousands of people out of work into the civilian work force who are also being put out of work and loosing pensions and in my line of thinking you have a recipe for disaster.

If such a drastic draw down is considered one of the potential opposing proposals that may be "proffered" is a war, use those people and equipment to fight someone, take the peoples minds off the civilian and occupy their equipment and talents on an external environment.


Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
The Chicken Or The Egg Riddle Solved posted Wed Jul 14 2010 07:00:50 by einsteinboricua
The Best Pop (aka Soda Or Coke) Of All Time. posted Fri Mar 19 2010 23:13:54 by LOT767-300ER
Full Time College + Part Time Job Or Vice Versa? posted Thu Oct 30 2008 19:14:35 by KLM672
It's Time For: Man Or Woman? posted Sun Mar 25 2007 20:34:54 by Thom@s
Time To Ban Trick Or Treat? posted Sat Oct 28 2006 15:28:08 by Cosec59
Time Or Newsweek posted Sat Jul 29 2006 09:36:06 by Pulkovokiwi
Problem With A Coworker To Tell Or Wait? posted Sun Jun 25 2006 04:11:30 by KLM672
Taxes:On Time,Extension?Refund Or Pay? posted Sun Apr 16 2006 01:25:59 by Psa53
It's That Time Of The Year: Boxers Or Briefs posted Fri Mar 10 2006 12:58:10 by Senorcarnival
First Time Snowboarding Or Skiing posted Tue Feb 7 2006 19:21:27 by Mirrodie