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US Soldier Kills Afghans In Shooting Spree  
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 6545 times:

Al Jazeera is reporting that a US soldier has shot dead several Afghans before handing himself in.

Quote:
"The soldier went through three separate houses, shooting at people as they slept in their beds. After the soldier shot these people, he turned himself in.

It is not known what triggered this action - perhaps the accumulated stress of working in a hostile environment.

Coming so soon after the Qur'an burning incident, this may trigger further anti-American sentiment and violence. Relations between the US and the Government in Kabul, already described as tense, are likely to be more strained.

My hope is that any further loss of lives on all sides can be avoided.

265 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13793 posts, RR: 63
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 6512 times:

In this eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth society only a public execution by hanging or firing squad of the soldier outside the US military camp, no reasons why he killed the civilians, will satisfy the Afghan public.
They would expect exactly the same from the Afghan justice system if an Afghan would have committed the murders.

Jan


User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12878 posts, RR: 12
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 6512 times:

This will probably be played down by the USA press for obvious reasons. Part of the blame is that often the 'enemy' is not in a uniform in post-WW II warfare. Part is that the USA is in a place where they or any other 'infidel outsider' is not wanted. The USA has been in Afghanistan to destroy the Taliban rule as revenge for a major supporter of the al-Queda movement that was behind the terror acts and de facto acts of war of 9/11. Problem is that we have created a endless loop of attacks that eventually the Afghans will win with our withdrawal that no politican in the USA wants to give on.

To the Afghans, probably the only penalty for this solder, if he did these events, would be a painful execution in public and who could blame them. They don't see mental stress as an excuse due their lack of education as to such factors as well as narrow tribal and religious beliefs. What a sorry situation and I hope the solder(s) involved do face military criminal persecution as well as get the mental health help they need.


User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 6493 times:

In all possibility their will be revenge killings. But the family of the victims can "excuse" the killer if they so choose. There has been a number of instances where Australia has paid compensation to the families of people killed accidentally, by cross fire, stray bullets, that sort of thing.

Quote:
The payments serve as compensation but are also made for cultural reasons. Pashtun tribespeople are beholden to seek revenge where their people have been wronged, but will settle grievances with cash.

The link is a bit dated but the practice still continues.

Whether the families will be as forgiving in this instance which to them may be seen as premeditated...

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 2):
I hope the solder(s) involved do face military criminal persecution

I don't know whether the US adopts the same approach to compensation as the Australians do, but I believe that the soldier will be subject to US Military discipline and receive a medical assessment and any help required. One of the sticking points in the negotiations between the US and Kabul has been over jurisdiction in matters involving serving personnel, so there is no chance that the soldier will be subjected to Afghan laws. He will still be entitled to fair treatment.

But this incident certainly makes it harder for all the troops on the ground. As I say, let us hope that the damage can be contained.


User currently offlineimiakhtar From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 6477 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 2):
What a sorry situation and I hope the solder(s) involved do face military criminal persecution
muslim life is cheap

The US Marine Corps has discharged the man convicted over the killing of Iraqi civilians in Haditha, a spokesman said.

Former Sgt Frank Wuterich, 31, was given a general discharge under honourable conditions and completed his service on Friday, he added


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haditha_killings


User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2010 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 6467 times:

While this is horrible and tragic, I wouldn't place it in any larger context. Stuff like that happens if you supply a large number of men with very deadly machinery.


Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 6450 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 2):
What a sorry situation and I hope the solder(s) involved do face military criminal persecution as well as get the mental health help they need.

I'm afraid that, in Western legal terms, ltbewr, it has to be one thing or the other. If the guy can be shown to have been legally insane at the time (which seems only too likely), he can be committed to a mental institution (for the rest of his life, if that turns out to be necessary) - but he cannot be convicted of murder. Still less executed for it.

I wouldn't expect the Afghans (or, indeed, quite a high proportion of Westerners) fully to understand or accept that principle. But it's our system - the system under which the guy will be tried. And in my view it's the only 'proper' system - I wouldn't care to live under the alternative, which would amount to executing mad (nowadays they say 'mentally ill') people.......

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 3):
But this incident certainly makes it harder for all the troops on the ground.

I'd agree, but go further, Quokkas. I think it makes the task facing the other guys downright impossible. In my view, the Afghanistan thing is over, and the sooner we get the Americans, British, Australians, and all the other 'coalition' troops
out of there, the better.

It's just 'over.'



"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3701 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 6441 times:

9 of the killed where children ...

http://www.dagbladet.no/2012/03/11/n...tenriks/drap/afghanistan/20633775/



These kind of incidents also have direct consecuence on soldiers from other nations in the country. As a direct conscuense of the burning of the Koran in february, a led and built Norwegian millitary base was attacked by over 200 protesters armed with rocks and handgrenades. The base is Norwegian, but soldiers from other nations are also stationed inside, including American.:

You can see pictures of that here:

http://www.dagbladet.no/2012/03/11/n...ghanistan/norge/meymaneh/20635875/


Unfortunetly the Afghan people don't see the difference between an US millitary uniform and that of other nations ...

[Edited 2012-03-11 07:07:36]

User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13793 posts, RR: 63
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 6355 times:

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 6):
I'd agree, but go further, Quokkas. I think it makes the task facing the other guys downright impossible. In my view, the Afghanistan thing is over, and the sooner we get the Americans, British, Australians, and all the other 'coalition' troops
out of there, the better.

But we should give all the progressive Afghans, who hoped that NATO would help them to bring Afghanistan into the 21th century and who would now be on the Taliban execution list (among them many women) asylum in Europe, Australia, Canada or the US.

Also to those later, who don´t want to live under Taliban rule.

Jan


User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2690 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 12 hours ago) and read 6334 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 2):
This will probably be played down by the USA press for obvious reasons

Like Abu Ghraib or Haditha?



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlinejcs17 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 8065 posts, RR: 40
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 11 hours ago) and read 6267 times:

Is it politically incorrect to say I really don't care? American soldiers by accident burned some copies of the Koran, and several are massacred at their bases. Bases at which American and coalition troops are trying to draw up plans to help the Afghan people and rid them of the Taliban. Burn a Bible or a copy of the Torah, 50% of believers would just shrug, the other 50% would say it's offensive and then shrug.

I'm so tired of trying to help a people whose mentality is rooted firmly in the eighth century. The politically correct say no one culture is better than another, I would direct their eyes to Afghanistan and Pakistan. I dare you to tell me those cultures are equal to ours.

[Edited 2012-03-11 10:35:17]


America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
User currently offlinewolbo From Netherlands, joined Mar 2007, 476 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 6233 times:

Quoting jcs17 (Reply 10):

Is it politically incorrect to say I really don't care?

Don't think it has anything to do with being politically incorrect. While I share some of your frustration about the situation in Afghanistan I find it sad when a human being doesn't care anymore about 9 innocent children being shot in their sleep.


Quoting jcs17 (Reply 10):

I'm so tired of trying to help a people whose mentality is rooted firmly in the eighth century.

Sounds like another lost vote for Santorum.


User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3049 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 6192 times:

As usual,civilians are caught in the middle of wartime,just like Vietnam,I don't remember the guys name,but a US soldier opening fire killing people is not the first time.Very sad.

Some other thoughts:

I don't give a crap what the Taliban say nor should they be given the spotlight as it's dynminte oppotuntity for them but the ultra liberal media will give them 24/7 coverage.

Maybe it's time for Obama to pull out.He might win the election hands down if he does.



Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8044 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 10 hours ago) and read 6171 times:

I believe that we need to take a hard look at the shooter, including how many times he has been deployed into combat.

We have had over a decade of wars without a draft. Instead of young men (and women) serving 2 years, with 8 to 12 months in a war zone, we have young men and women serving multiple deployments. Forced retention after the normal period of active duty commitment has also caused problems.

I wouldn't be surprised if this young man has been over deployed, or has PTSD. While I can deeply regret the loss of life we also need to understand that we have created these situations.


User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3049 posts, RR: 4
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 6134 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 13):
We have had over a decade of wars without a draft. Instead of young men (and women) serving 2 years, with 8 to 12 months in a war zone, we have young men and women serving multiple deployments. Forced retention after the normal period of active duty commitment has also caused problems.



Well put. Been thinking that myself.But what politician wants to make such a suggestion in bringing back the draft.
It's almost committing political suicide. And the media certainly won't encourage it.



Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlineronglimeng From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 624 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 6071 times:

I don't suppose that you guys with the American flags in your headers, expressing a minimal sympathy to the dead, but then spending most of your post suggesting how this tragedy can be explained...i.e. showing sympathy and understanding towards the killer, realise that you appear just like the moderate Muslims who come here and attempt to explain the actions of their own crazy people ?

User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3049 posts, RR: 4
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 6057 times:

Quoting ronglimeng (Reply 16):
I don't suppose that you guys with the American flags in your headers, expressing a minimal sympathy to the dead, but then spending most of your post suggesting how this tragedy can be explained...i.e. showing sympathy and understanding towards the killer, realise that you appear just like the moderate Muslims who come here and attempt to explain the actions of their own crazy people ?

Are we better in our trying an explaination and accounting of this tradegy then that of the Taliban, who are in the same league as sadistic drug dealers, who have done far,far FAR worse to they're own people without shedding any tears? And not even being accounted for?

[Edited 2012-03-11 12:57:26]


Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24631 posts, RR: 86
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 6052 times:
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Quoting NAV20 (Reply 6):
In my view, the Afghanistan thing is over, and the sooner we get the Americans, British, Australians, and all the other 'coalition' troops
out of there, the better.

It's just 'over.'

I think it was "over" some time ago. Once bin Laden was found I could not work why we - Australians - were still there and no politician, of any party, has ever been able to explain to me what "victory" in Afghanistan looks like.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8044 posts, RR: 8
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 6007 times:

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 12):
Maybe it's time for Obama to pull out.He might win the election hands down if he does.

Well he HAS gotten us out of Iraq and is pushing for an exit from Afghanistan.

[Edited 2012-03-11 13:11:31 by srbmod]

User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12878 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 6007 times:

The saddest part of this whole situation is a number of children were brutally murdered for just being in the wrong place in the wrong time. As to the American solder alleged to have done these apparent terrible actions, I am not excusing him.

We also don't know the situation at the location of these deadly shootings, if the men there were being sought for involvement in killing American soldiers by IED's or by guns or had taken a defensive position with their guns drawn and ready for use when the American soldiers entered.

It would be interesting if there were other American solders with the alleged shooter and they did little to stop the alleged atrocity or if they had bad or deliberately incorrect information by their Afghan sources as wanted this household's persons dead for their own reasons. Still, even then, it would not rationalize or be acceptable to have murdered the children.


User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3701 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 5951 times:

Quoting jcs17 (Reply 10):
Bases at which American and coalition troops are trying to draw up plans to help the Afghan people and rid them of the Taliban.

It will never happen. A day or two after we leave Afghanistan, things will be back to just like it were before. The correct balance between firepower and aid is needed to convince the Afgahn people not to fall in under Taliban rule. Sadly the correct balance is not present. There is just way to little effort in the aid expenditures compared to the millitary expenditures.

[Edited 2012-03-11 13:43:49]

User currently offlinephotopilot From Canada, joined Jul 2002, 2632 posts, RR: 18
Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 5928 times:

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 12):
As usual,civilians are caught in the middle of wartime,just like Vietnam,I don't remember the guys name,but a US soldier opening fire killing people is not the first time.

It was the My Lai Massacre in Vietnam and Second Lieutenant William Calley, a platoon leader was found guilty of killing 22 villagers. He was originally given a life sentence, but only served three and a half years under house arrest.

Basically, another white-wash by the US Military and a slap on the wrist for the murders. Frankly, I don't expect much better this time when the US and it's military are involved. American soldiers have a history of wanton killing of civilians and the list is long of the atrocities committed.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 13):
I wouldn't be surprised if this young man has been over deployed, or has PTSD.

Sounds like the apologists are already lining up their excuses.

Oh, and you might want to read this report.

"They (Americans) poured chemicals over their dead bodies and burned them," Samad told Reuters at the scene.

Neighbors said they had awoken to crackling gunfire from American soldiers, who they described as laughing and drunk.

"They were all drunk and shooting all over the place," said neighbor Agha Lala, who visited one of the homes where killings took place.

"Their (the victims') bodies were riddled with bullets."


Full story here. Of course the American's are denying everything, but multiple witnesses are reporting different versions of events.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/soldier-det...civilian-casualties-060915360.html


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10725 posts, RR: 38
Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 5917 times:

I hope he will be taken before the martial court to be judged and he will be punished to the extent of the rampage he has committed.

He is a serial murderer whatever his motivations might be.

I would have no pity on such an individual. No forgiveness.

RIP innocent victims.

 Wow!



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3240 posts, RR: 17
Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 5876 times:
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Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 22):
innocent victims

Some here do not agree it seems

Quoting jcs17 (Reply 10):
I'm so tired of trying to help a people whose mentality is rooted firmly in the eighth century. The politically correct say no one culture is better than another, I would direct their eyes to Afghanistan and Pakistan. I dare you to tell me those cultures are equal to ours.

 



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineflood From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 1381 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 month 1 week 6 hours ago) and read 5850 times:

Quoting jcs17 (Reply 10):
Is it politically incorrect to say I really don't care?
Quoting jcs17 (Reply 10):
I dare you to tell me those cultures are equal to ours.

Claiming your culture is somehow superior while not caring about the murder of innocent children. That's brilliant.


25 Giancavia : What a ****. Rip to the kids and folks who were killed. This one twisted moron just made the target on every other soldiers head that much more bigger
26 Post contains images n229nw : That is sick. But don't expect certain people to be able to understand that. I don't know what it has to do with political correctness. To me it just
27 Giancavia : I just dont understand how he can walk off base at 0300 by himself randomly... it shouldnt be possible. It is not only the psycho murderer that has qu
28 Post contains images stasisLAX : But in Afghan society, the offender can be "forgiven" for his actions by the families of those harmed/killed, usually for a significant sum of money
29 TheCol : We live in a civilized society, with a civilized justice system. The search of an explanation (ie. investigation) is absolutely necessary. If the sho
30 Giancavia : Cool, Lets use that crap excuse for everyone who murders. .every day everywhere. Would love to see the opinion of the same people if some random sick
31 Post contains images qantas077 : interesting, American's polled about the punishment that Maj Hasan should receive believe he should be put to death, I wonder if they will feel the sa
32 Post contains images aloges : to the victims. Wherever they are now, may they find the peace that they probably never had on earth.
33 BMI727 : In that case they will be unsatisfied. If there are I only hope that American retaliation will be swift. The soldiers inside would have no problem ju
34 aloges : Boy, have you got a lot to learn...
35 PPVRA : Time to leave Afghanistan. These events, along with collateral damage, are turning the Afghanis against the coalition. Saying "sorry" works a couple o
36 ual777 : When compared to who?! The US military has a pristine record when compared to most other countries in wartime. False. The vast majority of Afghan opi
37 Flighty : It's not credible to invade somebody, sit around blowing up the land for 10-20 years and expect them to like us. Our strategy was designed by fools bu
38 Post contains images SOBHI51 : I do not understand the following, when the Afghans, Pakistanis, Arabs or Muslims do stupid act of killing it's there culture at fault, fine, but whe
39 Ken777 : Probably. Which our efforts in the ME should have been to go after OBL. Instead Bush & Cheney decided to go after OIL, not OBL. In general terms,
40 ModernArt : I take it history is not your strong subject.
41 Flighty : As long as we treat Muslims overseas or Americans with dark skin by the same standard, giving them the benefit of the doubt, (which we always should)
42 Post contains images NAV20 : Quoting photopilot, Reply 21: "Full story here. Of course the American's are denying everything, but multiple witnesses are reporting different versio
43 Post contains links Quokkas : I concur and even suggest that it was over before it started. No outside force has been able to impose its definition of order in the area in centuri
44 MD11Engineer : Just check the Filipino-American war during the late 19th, early 20th century. There were numerous systematic attrocities committed by the US forces
45 MD11Engineer : it looks like Karzai is playing politics and in view of a possible NATO withdrawal from Afghanistan, is trying to make friends with the Taliban, Jan
46 soon7x7 : Al Jazeera...about as credible as the New York times...Not!...And such is war, one we responded too. If two buildings in New York City were not rando
47 Post contains images TheCol : You're free to go live in Afghanistan if that's the kind of justice you want to see. I wasn't aware you had access to all the evidence. Would you min
48 QFA380 : I'd certainly feel more sympathy if I didn't read every other week that Afghan soldiers have decided to kill Coalition forces. Troops are supposed to
49 Giancavia : I am also free not to shoot a bunch of kids in the head.. Free will and all that. Defend the child murderer if you must.. That poor bloke, Signed up
50 Post contains links windy95 : http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/12/wo...american-soldier-held.html?_r=1&hp His fourth Tour.
51 Post contains links and images NAV20 : We have lots of evidence, TheCol - from the Afghan eyewitnesses. They all appear to talk about 'soldiers' - plural......... Or is it your contention
52 Ken777 : Don't think so. The man is under US jurisdiction and will be investigated by US authorities. Any other investigations by other countries can obviousl
53 Giancavia : Sure and those people are not given excuses or defended because there is no defence for executing 9 Children. He was so unstable he did all that then
54 CASINTEREST : It may have been one person, it may have been more, but that is what investigations are for. To play the leap to conclusions game is just wrong at th
55 Ken777 : That is the problem with over deployment to war zones. People outside those zones will obviously be looking at the issues based on their safe and sou
56 photopilot : That is not a valid comparison as McVey killed American civilians in the USA. Postulate your response using an example of a US Soldier who kills non-
57 NW747400 : This is indeed tragic. If the soldier is found to be sane he should definitely face the harshest punishment. I personally have my doubts about his san
58 ltbewr : I think one other issue not discussed much here or elsewhere was the serious problems of military leadership from the Pentagon right on down. This sol
59 StarAC17 : What goal does the US have in Afghanistan? You can kill as many of the Taliban in any fashion you want all you will do is create more enemies. The US
60 DocLightning : Well, I'll throw in the understatement of the year: "This will not end well."
61 BMI727 : Find and then kill and capture terrorists. Not build schools, not ensure equality, not spread democracy. Simply kill the people who want to kill us.
62 Ken777 : McVey was a guy mentally stuck in the military frame of mind. He had been involved in GW I. And his exposure to a vicious combat environment was not
63 Post contains images TheCol : But you're not crazy, and therefore won't even entertain the thought. I rest my case. How would it be any different if he committed this crime in the
64 DocLightning : True.
65 StarAC17 : And you wonder why the US is on a downslope and hated worldwide. Staying in Afghanistan contributed very much to the Soviet Union falling apart, the
66 BMI727 : Hated doesn't matter. Every day that I wake up and some terrorist doesn't is a good day. If that's the case then there will be a billion people we ha
67 petertenthije : + Anyone else see the irony in this? Not that I want to defend terrorists, but if proven guilty then from an Afghani point of view this soldier could
68 Aesma : When has that ever worked ? I mean, in what country help coming from military bases helped the people ? Indochina/Viet Nam ? Any African country ? So
69 flipdewaf : LOL! TEAM AMERICA! They do say one mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. I think the soldier should get his fair and free trial and be asse
70 Post contains links and images zkojq : That made my day. Thanks. In many ways the true price of these wars is yet to come. I would have thought that walking off base along at 0300 wouldn't
71 Post contains images NAV20 : Hi, zkolq, thanks for a good constructive 'on-topic' post.. Tend to agree (again 'on present evidence') with the first part - but not with the second.
72 Post contains images zkojq : I'm not suggesting they would let him get away with it as such. I would think that: -There will be a trial/investigation and that if he (and/or other
73 Quokkas : In the interests of the ISAF personnel maybe but what about the interests of the families of those so brutally murdered to see justice done. Nav20 ma
74 Bongodog1964 : He was on Afghan sovereign territory, he went AWOL by leaving his base and commited an atrocity on the civilian population, of course he should be de
75 Flighty : This I cautiously agree with, but we also have to win the PR war. If we lose a PR war against billions of people, in a world where China's military t
76 Post contains images Quokkas : Now you wash your mouth. You're speaking heresy.
77 WestJet747 : You have a great deal of difficulty with the phrase "violence begets violence" eh? The opinions of a select few in this thread would suggest they hav
78 CASINTEREST : I would expect it to be released. However I still think that the more I hear the more this was an unstable soldier that committed a horrible act on f
79 Ken777 : I wouldn't be surprised if money was paid t the families, with various Afghanistan politicians taking their cut along the way. The family members mig
80 BMI727 : This isn't about winning over the civilian populations, it's about killing those who want to kill us. It doesn't really matter if they love us or hat
81 WestJet747 : Then you are no better than the people you claim to be superior to. Please show me where I said, or even implied, that. This isn't a video game. Turn
82 Quokkas : Do you really believe that a two year old child wanted to kill you? If you can justify killing unarmed civilians who are children and women who have
83 Ken777 : This started as an effort to get OBL after 9/11. Unfortunately we quickly turned our back on that effort so we could invade Iraq for "Weapons of Mass
84 DocLightning : Oooh! Genocide! Always a good plan. Usually solves all the problems, too. Why didn't I think of that?
85 bjcc : Its worrying that some citizens of the USA believe the 'kill them all' attitude. You never, ever beat terrorism in that way. It only feeds terrorism,
86 Post contains images Bongodog1964 : [quote=BMI727,reply=80]Quoting Bongodog1964 (Reply 74):If you go in with this attitude, you've lost before you begin. In order to be successful any ca
87 petertenthije : Having read some of the, let's be polite and say somewhat more gun ho, arguments: I think it is fair to question if some of the people here are stupid
88 soon7x7 : Were you present?...I wasn't...doubt anyone here was... for any civilized individual to take this report as credible from the likes of Al Jazeera wou
89 DocLightning : One wonders if maybe the genocide should be targeted at all Americans. ...which would work out poorly for me.
90 BMI727 : We never were. The only thing we have at the end of the day is the belief that we are right and they are wrong. Of course we don't deliberately targe
91 DocLightning : No. You talked about killing a billion people. If I knew your name and address, I'd probably have told the cops about it. Someone talking like that n
92 Post contains links NAV20 : Looks as if Obama and Cameron are actively discussing Afghan forces being required to take over responsibility for security from 'mid to late 2003,' a
93 WestJet747 : Where do you think terrorists come from?! OBL didn't just pull them out of his @$$, they came from the general population! If you stop giving the civ
94 SmittyOne : If the insanity is ever going to stop, somebody has to be willing to walk away from a fight. We used to call that "being the bigger man".
95 BMI727 : Someone said that current policy could potentially create a billion radical Muslim terrorists, at which point I replied by saying we'll have to get t
96 Mir : So if a foreign country were to set up shop in your neighborhood or your city, declared themselves to be an occupation force who weren't your friends
97 Ken777 : And as long as we push those wars on terrorism we will find their army growing. For everyone you kill you help recruit another handful. What is the l
98 SOBHI51 : No we do not want that. I really find it very difficult to respond to one of the posters here. I can not believe some of the ideas he got. Thanks God
99 BMI727 : Not at all, I'd hate every minute of it. But how far has this nation building nonsense gotten us? Ten years of it and they still don't like us. As ha
100 Post contains images NAV20 : Had the same thought about John Wayne movies a while ago, Ken777. If your main source of information about war is the movies, most wars only appear t
101 DocLightning : You just admitted your cause could create a billion terrorists. We see how the aggression tactic is working for Israel.
102 BMI727 : In the short term that's probably necessary. Hang on long enough to give units back from Iraq some R&R and then go balls to the wall in Afghanist
103 StarAC17 : Or China. It is but there are other reason for that mainly the political pressure for a conflict because a lot politically connected defence contract
104 BMI727 : No, but I do buckle my seatbelt. The understanding ends when they pick up a gun or a grenade. We cannot become a nation that negotiates with terroris
105 bjcc : No ones asking you to negotiate with terrorists, just to understand one simple thing. You win against terrorism by stopping it's support. You do not d
106 BMI727 : There's being nice and then there is using our money to build them a country, which is what we've been doing rather ineffectually for the last decade
107 bjcc : Oh dear.....Such a shame logic plays such a small part in your life. Some surprises for you. 1. Terrorism does not exists simply because people dislik
108 BMI727 : Good then I don't really care. Unless the Brits are going to hatch a plan to hijack planes and crash them into buildings or harbor the world's most w
109 Post contains links Quokkas : Why change the habit of a lifetime? Do a bit of reading and you will find that the US has provided material support for terrorist groups. For example
110 SmittyOne : True, but we also don't have to act like this is our planet and the other 6.7 billion people are just living on it. There is a huge difference betwee
111 Post contains images zkojq : Because I feel that the short term risks of retaliation are too great. In Iraq there was minimal retaliation after additional information about the A
112 StarAC17 : The US always does at some point, often because those negotiations are in your interests or it saves American lives. It's easier than that most of th
113 Post contains images Rara : It's probably a good thing BMI727 posts from America, because in a number of countries his remarks would have become... legally relevant by now.
114 BMI727 : They aren't terrorists when they're on our side. Of course not. The vast majority of those 6.7 billion don't spend their time plotting how to kill us
115 BMI727 : ...and look where that has gotten us. There is no high ground in the war on terror. It's simply a matter of getting them before they get us.
116 flipdewaf : Maybe you should try putting them in a river, if they sink they are innocent and if they float they are witches terrorists. If it were a video game y
117 SmittyOne : If you want to resign yourself to a world where this is the only option, that is your choice. But I prefer to work toward a solution that doesn't inv
118 Post contains links CASINTEREST : I 'd like to bring this back to the discussion at hand. A video of the surrender was taken and shown to the afghan officials to show one person retur
119 Post contains images NAV20 : With due respect - I think that's probably where you're going wrong, BMI727. There are always plenty of 'good people' on BOTH sides....... As I've sa
120 BMI727 : If you insist on reading what you want to read rather than what I actually wrote, then there is really nothing I can do to help you. Show me where I
121 Post contains images WestJet747 : I'm not entirely sure how you can have such an over-simplification of such a complicated issue. Also, there is always a high ground in every situatio
122 BMI727 : No, if they are on our side they are patriots. If they are our enemies, then they are terrorists. There's no reason to make the differences bigger th
123 Post contains images flipdewaf : My take from this was that you thought it acceptable to kill children in their sleep as this was a response to that exact question. Don't do that, th
124 CASINTEREST : Must be nice to live in a black and white world. When you get older, hopefully you will learn there are a lot of shades of gray in between. Probably
125 BMI727 : Not at all, for heaven's sake Minority Report was just a movie. It was pretty black and white on 9/11. Maybe that's the root of the problem. Spend a
126 CASINTEREST : You have to believe in something at some point. At this point we are nothing more than intruders in afghanistan. When was the last time they attacked
127 SmittyOne : False dichotomy. There are a wide range of solutions between the Neville Chamberlain approach and your 'scorched earth' policy of hunting down and ki
128 Post contains images WestJet747 : Yes, there is. There is something very wrong if you cannot at least identify the high road in any given situation, taking said road remains to be ano
129 bjcc : BMI I can only presume that your attitude is due to your age, and probably a real lack of knowledge of the world outside of the USA. I am fully aware
130 lewis : So you just finished the war with S.Arabia and are now heading for Pakistan... oh wait!
131 victrola : I think the Russians already tried this in Afghanistan. As I recall, it didn't work.
132 Ken777 : You tend to ignore the reality that the terrorists are very willing to keep their actions going for over 100 years if necessary. And we are continual
133 Rara : Number of believers: 1.
134 BMI727 : It would suck. But if I hated it enough to attack the invading troops I would fully expect to be shot at. They don't have to like it. They just have
135 petertenthije : Back during the cold was the USA actively supported the Mujahideen in their fight against the Soviet Union. The USA supplied weapons, money, training
136 BMI727 : They aren't terrorists because they were on our side. The distinction between a patriot and a terrorist is purely based on point of view. You can't e
137 ronglimeng : I'm really impressed with the number of members here who are taking the time and making the effort to educate a "16-20" year-old. However, at some poi
138 SmittyOne : Like lose this attitude: When you violate another country's sovereignty, the damage is done whether you get away with it or not. 100% true. We did no
139 petertenthije : Might I direct you to the dictionary to look up terrorism: Nowhere here do I see a distinction on who is commiting the terrorism or for what aim. Ter
140 SmittyOne : LOL. I would but it's like a train wreck...I know I should but I just can't look away. Really, I love the US and think that the ideals that the count
141 BMI727 : So your saying that the solution it to acquiesce to the terrorists' wishes? We've never intentionally targeted civilians in the War on Terror, but th
142 SOBHI51 : Not in so many words, but, you did not fool anybody really. Question: Would you have the same feelings if the enemy was a Christian, Jewish or any ot
143 SmittyOne : I'm not condoning terrorism, or their overall goals - but it would be naive to believe that none of the other grievances that empower their cause hav
144 Post contains links NAV20 : On the thread topic - the soldier concerned has been flown out of Afghanistan, and the authorities are refusing to say where he is being taken. http:/
145 mariner : I don't think anyone is suggesting that it end - I'm surely not. But are we fighting terrorists in Afghanistan - or are we fighting Afghanis who are
146 Post contains links NAV20 : Turns out that the (still un-named) shooter has been flown to a US prison establishment in Kuwait. Apparently the video showing his 'return to base' c
147 YVRLTN : A terrorist simply causes terror. Whether the agenda is one you agree with or not is irrelevant, anybody who engages in this activity, particularly a
148 darksnowynight : I don't agree with a thing he's saying and I think his opinions belong in a sandbox. But don't you think you're being a bit over the top here?
149 Flighty : Yeah, that sounds like a fundamentalist religion. One point to make is while we refuse to accept "terroristic threats" and behaviors from non-white A
150 BMI727 : Yes. Al Qaeda are no more or less terrorists than Timothy McVeigh or any other non-Muslim terrorist. No one even pretends that Muslims have anything
151 mariner : I don't know that all of the Taliban are the bomb planters, that's the trouble with generalizations. Some may be the warlords of old Afghanistan, and
152 BMI727 : Clean them out as best we can, set up a government of vetted officials, leave, and if it starts to go south then we'll have enough smart bombs to go
153 mariner : Just bomb the country to hell, you mean? And who decides if it is "going south"? The Taliban made no aggressive moves towards the United States when
154 Post contains links and images NAV20 : Fascinating response, BMI727. My own 'posture' - and, I expect, that of most of the posters on here - is that I want to see justice done. The facts a
155 flipdewaf : It seems that maybe you have watched too many movies You seem to be in favour of similar style diplomacy. It isn't bribing, you genuinly want them to
156 BMI727 : That would be wasteful and needlessly barbaric. They just allowed a safe haven for terrorists to plot several attacks against Americans. And for what
157 SmittyOne : Honestly I don't think you are really reading what I've been trying to say here. Aid has nothing at all to do with convincing people to "like" us. Th
158 SmittyOne : Perhaps the problem was that we invaded and unleashed violence on these countries as part of the 'improvement' program. What are you talking about..h
159 mariner : You advocated bombing the place because you didn't like the government. And what if your intelligence is wrong about that government, as much of the
160 ltbewr : So far, the name and some other identifying information as to who the alleged mass killer has not been made public. In part, that is to protect him, b
161 flipdewaf : And I'm sure that this attitude will be reciprocated. If you kill them they will kill you. So in a fashion you are increasing American deaths (and Au
162 Post contains images StarAC17 : If they have something you want (such as resources), your government will and has in the past. I would question that the US support for Israel was th
163 Post contains images NAV20 : Thanks for some sensible responses, 'on topic,' BMI727. Worth mentioning, though, that the Ruby/Oswald thing happened in the heart of the USA. As far
164 Quokkas : The response of the Taliban was to request proof that OBL was involved, in line with normal procedures where an extradition treaty might apply. On 4t
165 Post contains images NAV20 : Really nice one, Quokkas.
166 Post contains links SmittyOne : I agree with you personally, but that is just my opinion...legally this is not always the case. The "Status of Forces Agreements" that the US has wit
167 Post contains images Mortyman : No you did'nt. When it comes to Afghanistan, the United States has used very small amounts on aid compared to what it has used on millitary expenditu
168 Post contains images Quokkas : It's comforting to see that my posts are sometimes appreciated. May I say that I am pleased by the number of US posters who do not share the white ha
169 par13del : I wonder why they kept him in the region if their intent was to sweep everything under the rug and pervert the course of justice. I mean after the fu
170 BMI727 : Well, we killed some war criminals, but that wasn't many people. By 1947 we still had detained 90,000 Germans. God only knows what the Soviets were d
171 SOBHI51 : Maybe the second richest but not powerful in the day to day running of the country.
172 mariner : There have been very few times in Afghanistan's recent (say, two hundred years) history when there has not been "resistance" to the ruling government
173 Dreadnought : I haven't piped in on this thread, but I just wanted to say that if the Afghans have any intention of fairness and justice, that they would apologize
174 flipdewaf : What?! Were the 2 year olds sticking their tongues out a him? What provoked him into killing innocent children? Fred
175 ltbewr : From a number of news reports as to the accused solder: He is currently at a US Base in Kuwait and may be brought to the military prison at Leavenwort
176 Post contains links NAV20 : Another fragment of information appears to have 'leaked out' - from the Afghans rather than the Americans. Up to now we have been 'spoonfed' the idea
177 Post contains links NAV20 : Good prediction, ltbewr. He is indeed being moved to Leavenworth. He has also been named as Sergeant Robert Bales. Most current press stories (appare
178 bjcc : BMI I'm curious. So lets put a different scenario to you. You are probably too young to know this, and American, so as this happened outside the USA y
179 Quokkas : @ bjcc reply=178 "would have been perfectly justified in killing everyone we knew or thought to be a terrorist?" That certainly would have made things
180 BMI727 : Yes, they should have dealt with the terrorists in the most severe manner as there is simply no place for that in the modern world. When it comes to
181 StarAC17 : Well look at the history of the conflict with the IRA for yourself, they and Ireland weren't exterminated and they managed to secure peace quite quic
182 bjcc : BMI So, you think that world opinion, including that of your own country, where some members of your population actively supported (though ignorance a
183 BMI727 : Yes they are. The UK would have been perfectly justified in trying to arrest or kill them. Obviously the ideal way to go about it would be working wi
184 flipdewaf : So lets extend that story, the Brits go the the US and try to kill a terrorist. Whilst doing this someone who happens to be a soldier who doesn't und
185 ltbewr : I am very concerned that he name of the alleged killer was disclosed. My main issue is the serous threat to the lives of the soldier's family, physica
186 BMI727 : No it doesn't because it's enforcing sovereignty rather than aiding terrorists. A country has a right to enforce its sovereignty. That's why you have
187 NAV20 : I think that's a very important point, ltbewr. We hear a lot of stuff about the killer and his family - nothing at all about his victims and what is
188 Post contains links Quokkas : This is about the saddest part in the whole sorry story. It's as if the victims are the ones at fault and that the soldier was the victim. His lawyer
189 SmittyOne : That's pretty harsh...but 9 times out of 10 = true. People bag on Americans for being ignorant of world affairs, but I don't believe that keeping bet
190 SmittyOne : I don't blame his lawyer for cultivating this (that is his job), but it is sad that we're not hearing more vocal challenges to this notion. If one we
191 flipdewaf : So, the US army go to Afghanistan and try to kill terrorists. Whilst doing this an Afghan sees a US soldier shooting at what is seemingly a normal ci
192 Quokkas : The scale of 9/11 was such that there was no room for the average person to "rationalise" it. The sheer horror of it was unfathomable to most. While
193 Post contains images NAV20 : Just WHAT kind of twisted crap is THAT? Meaning the lawyer, not you, Quokkas...... This guy shot and killed 16 unarmed people, mostly women and child
194 BMI727 : He's the defense attorney, he's not supposed to care. He has one job and one job only: help his client get away with murder. Anything less would be a
195 SmittyOne : A bad choice of words on my part. What I meant to say is that our foreign policy is now more proactively focused. A foreign policy where we are not a
196 NAV20 : Interesting angle there, BMI727? Are you seriously suggesting that 9/11 was organised by AFGHANS?
197 Quokkas : Yes, his role is to represent the interests of his client and I would not expect any different from him. My point, as I believe you are well aware, i
198 Post contains links ltbewr : This article gives some more info that point, as well as some other info as to the soldier's background: http://news.yahoo.com/soldier-accuse...killi
199 BMI727 : Maybe if we'd done that after the embassy bombings or the USS Cole we wouldn't be sitting here talking about 9/11. It was organized by people in Afgh
200 Post contains images NAV20 : On all the evidence, BMI727, that's just plain wrong. We can probably agree that the primary 'organiser' of 9/11 was Osama Bin Laden. He was a Saudi-
201 seb146 : There are also many Afghans living in the area who claim there were more than one soldier carrying out this tragedy. Either way, this guy was on his
202 flipdewaf : BMI727, is this what you want to see? The US army go to Afghanistan and try to kill terrorists. Whilst doing this an Afghan sees a US soldier shooting
203 bjcc : Smitty Yes, your right about the reasoning for the American insular attitude, and to be fair, there's more than enough that happens in the US to fill
204 Ken777 : I doubt that if someone who had been financing the war got shot one night that the US would be too concerned. Maybe those SAS guys can take out those
205 SmittyOne : I was talking a little bit farther back...the dramatic change in American policy after World War 2, compared to our diplomatic stance at the turn of
206 DocLightning : Shell, ExxonMobil, Amoco/BP, and friends? Or the DEA and friends?
207 sbworcs : So what you are saying is that you are correct and can solve the issue whilst all the military experts with real experience in this area are wrong? A
208 BMI727 : That's a joke. Osama was inside Afghanistan until late 2001 along with a considerable number of Al Qaeda fighters and their training camps, some of w
209 darksnowynight : If you know more than everyone else, you better find someone who matters and tell them. Honestly, what an embarrassing, nightmarific boon-doggle this
210 seb146 : Bush held hands and kissed and bent over backward for the Saudi royal family. Consider Bin Laden is an important family in Saudi Arabia and 17 of 19
211 NAV20 : Thing is, though, darksnowynight, this wasn't a 'policy violation' - it was a hideous crime. But there seems to have been nothing in the nature of a
212 MD11Engineer : Do youguys realize that all these incidents (starting from the Q´ran burning, where the embarrasment could have been easily been prevented by consult
213 sbworcs : So taking Northern Ireland as an example it would be better to still be having violence and killings rather thant the situation we have now just as l
214 cmf : Do you realize that you justify the actions of terrorists? From everyone. There are always more to learn and even your biggest enemy may do some thin
215 windy95 : But policy will change because of it. The man spent three tours in Iraq and was wounded twice including head trauma from an IED. Perhaps the policy t
216 aloges : Neither can I, so I say this as a born and raised German with a pretty good idea of my nation's history: Those ideas are exactly the ones we need to
217 MD11Engineer : Exactly. What did Kaider Wilhelm II say during the Boxer rebellion in China (against Europeans, Americans and Japanese, who each wanted to cut pieces
218 Quokkas : We can only hope so but as you go on to say The outcome is not guaranteed. Policy may change but, despite my normal caution of anything posted in the
219 DocLightning : Yeah we do. You've told us exactly what you know. Which isn't very much. It frightens me. If people like BMI727 get their way, we will be building co
220 Flighty : i'm not sure it should be called "attacks on US forces" but rather, "defense of the age old Afghan homeland against invaders from America." The fact
221 Post contains images BMI727 : Sure, even in terrorist cases arrest is usually preferable to assassination. But negotiating with terrorists should never be on the table. Except I n
222 StarAC17 : Yes after they are convicted through due process and your government's unwillingness to do that and in fact now have the right to detain US citizens
223 Flighty : I thought our national policy was to kill those people. Which is fine. One doesn't put combatants on trial one by one; why not just give them what th
224 aloges : You did: __ It was always ridiculous, even when you were still suggesting it:
225 sbworcs : BMI - I would appreciate an answer to the above as to whether it would be better to still have killings as long as we did not negotiate? Thanks
226 SmittyOne : I think this was part of it, but I also think it was a litte more complex than what you describe...otherwise, why all the "Iraqi Freedom" nonsense? I
227 Post contains images NAV20 : The only 'facts' that have come to light so far are copious references to the traumas and difficulties faced by Sergeant Bales (and his family). The
228 BMI727 : Arrest is generally a preferable option, but usually presents more challenges from an operational standpoint. It needs to be handled on a case by cas
229 WestJet747 : You continuously ignore the fact that negotiation has worked historically. You can't dispute recorded facts.
230 BMI727 : ...worked for the terrorists. There is no excuse for the civilized world to tolerate terrorism.
231 Post contains links WestJet747 : Looks like Sgt. Bales finally met with his lawyer face-to-face. Source Please, develop that thought and entertain us. How did the terrorists win in No
232 Post contains images Ken777 : This would be a legitimate (?) use of DADT.
233 BMI727 : Well, there was the early release of those imprisoned for attacks, and the agreement of the British to reduce their military presence. In short, it d
234 WestJet747 : This was a condition on BOTH sides. I'm starting to see that this is a pride thing for you. What you describe here is that it would hurt your pride i
235 seb146 : Just my observation: After Osama bin Laden carried out the attack on the United States on Sept 11, Bush ordered the Bin Sultan air base in Saudi Arab
236 BMI727 : It's not a pride thing. It's a justice thing. Civilized nations have to take a stand to not legitimize, tolerate, or acquiesce to terrorism and inste
237 NAV20 : A couple of straight questions for you, BMI727. On the thread subject. 1. A man armed with an automatic weapon enters two peaceful villages, kills ni
238 ltbewr : Sgt. Bales met with his legal team on Monday. Sgt. Bales wife made a statement expressing grief for the loss of lives that her husband is alleged to h
239 WestJet747 : News reports I was reading before bed last night suggested charges were expected to be laid by week's end. Entirely speculation of course, but I read
240 SmittyOne : Your idea of 'justice' seems to be a one way street. You ascribe a moral deficiency on the part of the terrorist for intentionally killing civilians
241 starbuk7 : And you really believe that the terrorists would stop being terrorists if we give them a "good deal" somehow, leave the middle east and let them have
242 WestJet747 : Ask yourself this: Why? They didn't just wake up one morning, spin a globe, stop it on the US and say "screw these guys!".
243 BMI727 : I suppose. Yes, which is why he is being held in prison pending trial, where I hope he is dealt with in the most severe manner. He'll be lucky to not
244 bjcc : BMI So terrorism should never prosper? We (the civilised world) should never talk to terrorists? You forget something sunshine, your country was born
245 Post contains links and images NAV20 : Not exactly 'full-hearted,' BMI727, but we're 'making progress'...... I'm afraid that it looks less and less likely that he'll suffer much of a penal
246 BMI727 : Well I guess it's lucky that the Brits are soft on terrorism, gave up, and went home. Of course being British might not be so bad, but whatever. I've
247 sbworcs : Again I ask for a direct answer. Would it be better for there to still be bombings in both Northern Ireland and mainland Britain causing anquish, dea
248 SmittyOne : Actually, they pissed away a bunch of their talent and resources trying to resolve a situation by force that they could probably have resolved by neg
249 BMI727 : Yes. I don't think that civilized nations should legitimize terrorism and the accompanying atrocities by acquiescing to terrorists' demands. It is no
250 sbworcs : And how did the terrorists in Northern Ireland get what they want? I can't believe you think that it is better to have killings and bloodshed rather
251 Post contains links MD11Engineer : According to his lawyer, the Sgt. is innocent, since "there has been no forensic evidence secured and there is no confession". http://www.bbc.co.uk/ne
252 Post contains links NAV20 : A certain amount of 'good news' on that score in this story:- "Murder charges against Army Staff Sgt. Robert Bales are expected to be filed Friday, f
253 windy95 : I thought you said there was no investigations afterwards? There is no good news in all of this. Including these charges. Could you imagine if Bush a
254 Post contains images NAV20 : I did, windy95 - and I stand by that view. The press reports say that the information on the increased death toll etc. is the result of 'new investig
255 vegetables2001 : I'm surprised incident like these don't happen more often, soldiers aren't generally very pleasant or intelligent people. Put them in someone else's c
256 Post contains images SmittyOne : Not sure that making sweeping generalizations about groups of people is particularly helpful. But 'if' your assessment is true, then I suppose it's b
257 ltbewr : That Sgt. Bales has been formally charged is important. That it took almost 2 weeks is not unreasonable, especially when the logistical and other circ
258 Post contains links NAV20 : "(AP) WASHINGTON - American officials say U.S. investigators now believe the U.S. soldier accused of killing 17 Afghan civilians split the slaughter i
259 L-188 : Dude, I just can't even begin to start with what is wrong with that statement. I don't see how. And as history has shown at many places including the
260 vegetables2001 : Sorry, I work in a workplace that is approximately 40%-50% ex-uk military. When they are not banging on endlessly about rag-headed muslims they are s
261 Post contains links Quokkas : It is now being reported that the US has paid compensation to the victims' families, according to a local official. The amounts being claimed as havin
262 Post contains links and images NAV20 : Dunno, L-188 - as I said earlier, unless a pitched battle is going on, ammunition in disciplined forces is usually only issued against a signature an
263 jcs17 : I don't understand what you're really angry about. Facts are facts. The Koran is more important to many in the Islamic world, than basic peace and ju
264 Post contains links NAV20 : Looks like more important people than me are also worried about possible failures of command:- "WASHINGTON - Gen. John Allen, the top U.S. commander i
265 Post contains links NAV20 : Sorry for the double post, but this programme was shown on SBS, our 'multicultural' TV station, last evening; and I thought that I should make it avai
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