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AA Fires Blogging Flight Attendant  
User currently offlineMcdu From United States of America, joined Apr 2005, 1487 posts, RR: 17
Posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 11051 times:

http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/Miami-F...opular-Videos-Fired-142762675.html

Wow, that was fast! This was a hotly debated topic here just a couple of weeks ago. Personally I am glad to see AA take a stand. The blog had some potential slanderous statements about managers.

64 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15833 posts, RR: 27
Reply 1, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 11004 times:

"Fighting his termination"? He seemed like he couldn't wait to leave.


Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinedarthluke12694 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 10880 times:

Wow....interesting. All that this is going to do is give Gailen David, along with American Airlines more publicity. Another "free speech" case. I'm on both sides with this one. David talked bad about AA, but then again he has freedom of speech. Although I believe AA made the right decision, I am big on rights. I wonder what the ACLU is going to have to say about this....?

User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15833 posts, RR: 27
Reply 3, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 10811 times:

Quoting darthluke12694 (Reply 2):
Although I believe AA made the right decision, I am big on rights.

You have the right to say what you wish. You don't have the right to work for American Airlines.

Quoting darthluke12694 (Reply 2):
I wonder what the ACLU is going to have to say about this....?

If they're smart, nothing.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinewjcandee From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 5344 posts, RR: 23
Reply 4, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 10811 times:

AA has known about this guy for a long time, it seems. I am sure that, with a bunch of expensive legal counsel, they lined their ducks up, documented stuff thoroughly, and were well-prepared for the battle before they canned this guy. "Counseling" him a year ago about passenger privacy and other "serious issues" means that they have been preparing to defend their position for a long time, and, apparently, that he stepped in it.

Ultimately, the validity of their position depends on what he said, whether it clearly violated a defensible policy, and whether he was given an opportunity to correct it or discontinue the conduct. Sounds like they waited until they had done enough to protect against the inevitable pushback.

[Edited 2012-03-15 20:25:42]

User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 5, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 10733 times:

I wonder what the union for the AA FA's response is to all of this...... I wonder of AA followed the termination process correctly or not.


A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinerenfnl From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 74 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 10654 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
You have the right to say what you wish. You don't have the right to work for American Airlines.

  
I think sometimes people forget its ALL about selling airline tickets, not your internal issues...that should remain internal. There is real work to be done and you can be a part of it or spend your time making internet videos that undermine it for everyone else

[Edited 2012-03-15 20:44:20]

User currently offlinedarthluke12694 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 7, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 10532 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
You have the right to say what you wish. You don't have the right to work for American Airlines.

Oh I agree with you 100%. It is just the reason AA fired him for. They fired him for exercising his freedom of speech right. (Unless there is some other issue that I/we don't know about). I'm sure if this guy really wanted to, he could drag this out into some long legal process. But in the end, good for AA for firing him.


User currently offlineusflyer msp From United States of America, joined May 2000, 2184 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 10528 times:

I normally would try to defend someone like this but after reading his site I do believe that he is unprofessional. He's like the Perez Hilton of AA. The etiquette stuff and videos are fine but spreading internal AA gossip and slandering peoples' names is not cool. He deserves to be fired.

[Edited 2012-03-15 20:55:48]

User currently offlinemoose135 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2402 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 10532 times:

Quoting darthluke12694 (Reply 2):
Another "free speech" case.

Many people make this same mistaken assumption. It isn't a "freedom of speech" case. In the United States, your constitutionally guaranteed Freedom of Speech only applies to the government restricting what you say. If this F/A worked for the federal government, there might be a freedom of speech issue, but a private company can restrict what you say while under their employment, and you can face penalties - up to and including termination - for making public statements they don't like.



KC-135 - Passing gas and taking names!
User currently offlineKaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12281 posts, RR: 35
Reply 10, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 10502 times:
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Quoting darthluke12694 (Reply 2):
Another "free speech" case

Free speech applies to the government, not a private company

Quoting darthluke12694 (Reply 2):
I wonder what the ACLU is going to have to say about this....?

Probably nothing. AA is a private company and can fire an employee for any/no reason. Government can't restrict free speech, private companies can and do.



“Once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, an
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15833 posts, RR: 27
Reply 11, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 10502 times:

Quoting darthluke12694 (Reply 7):
They fired him for exercising his freedom of speech right.

When you exercise that right you must live with the consequences. It's like firing an employee for showing up drunk. Drinking isn't illegal, but that doesn't mean that you can do it at work.

Quoting darthluke12694 (Reply 7):
he could drag this out into some long legal process.

That might not be the best way to use unemployment checks.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3217 posts, RR: 16
Reply 12, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 10456 times:

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 10):
AA is a private company and can fire an employee for any/no reason.

Absolutely not true.

They cannot fire all the females, blacks, muslims, etc, just for "any/no reason".


User currently offlinedarthluke12694 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 10457 times:

Quoting moose135 (Reply 9):
Many people make this same mistaken assumption. It isn't a "freedom of speech" case. In the United States, your constitutionally guaranteed Freedom of Speech only applies to the government restricting what you say. If this F/A worked for the federal government, there might be a freedom of speech issue, but a private company can restrict what you say while under their employment, and you can face penalties - up to and including termination - for making public statements they don't like.

I didn't know that. Thanks! I guess ya'll can just forget everything I said about that....

So here is my question. He said he is going to fight his termination. How is he going to fight it? Is there any way this guy can win?


User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13754 posts, RR: 61
Reply 14, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 10421 times:
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Quoting darthluke12694 (Reply 7):
It is just the reason AA fired him for. They fired him for exercising his freedom of speech right.

No, he was likely terminated for a combination of insubordination (he'd been counseled for this sort of public display before, apparently) and violating the company's code of conduct, which likely has a rule that says something along the lines of "Threatening, intimidating, or discourteous behavior to customers or employees at any time will not be tolerated."

Put another way, freedom of speech doesn't permit you to retain your job if you're using it to publicly talk smack about your employer or be discourteous to a co-worker or customer.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 5):
I wonder what the union for the AA FA's response is to all of this......

I'd imagine they've filed a grievance, as all unions typically do automatically in any sort of loss-of-pay disciplinary action. I'd also imagine they fully understand they have a snowball's chance in hell of getting his job back.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 15, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 10407 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 11):
That might not be the best way to use unemployment checks.

He wouldn't be eligible for unemployment since he was fired.

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 12):
Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 10):
AA is a private company and can fire an employee for any/no reason.

Absolutely not true.

Yes, they can. That is why most states are "At-Will" States. I am assuming Texas & Florida are At-Will States.

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 12):
They cannot fire all the females, blacks, muslims, etc, just for "any/no reason".

This would be a totally different ballgame. Totally different. However, the FA was not fired for any of the examples you listed.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineTranspac787 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3217 posts, RR: 16
Reply 16, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 10379 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 15):
This would be a totally different ballgame. Totally different. However, the FA was not fired for any of the examples you listed.

No, *not* totally different. The statement made was as follows:

Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 10):
AA is a private company and can fire an employee for any/no reason

"Any reason" could be AA deciding they just don't like blacks anymore and are going to fire them all. That would be beyond all sorts of illegal.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 15):
However, the FA was not fired for any of the examples you listed.

Irrelevant. I was disputing the comment made in reply 10, not the reasons for the FA's termination.


User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13754 posts, RR: 61
Reply 17, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 10381 times:
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Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 15):
Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 12):
Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 10):
AA is a private company and can fire an employee for any/no reason.

Absolutely not true.


Yes, they can. That is why most states are "At-Will" States. I am assuming Texas & Florida are At-Will States.

Even in cases of at-will employment, there's a big difference between having "just cause" for termination and "just 'cuz." No large company's HR and/or Legal department will sign off on a termination for arbitrary reasons.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 18, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 10314 times:

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 16):

I think you need to look up the "At-Will" laws for Texas and Florida, as what this thread is all about, or your own state. A company can fire you with or without cause. But they cannot fire you for the basis of sex orientation, nationality, race, disability, etc etc.....

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 17):
Even in cases of at-will employment, there's a big difference between having "just cause" for termination and "just 'cuz."

  

Quoting Transpac787 (Reply 16):
"Any reason" could be AA deciding they just don't like blacks anymore and are going to fire them all. That would be beyond all sorts of illegal.

It would be very difficult to prove that. You are grasping at straws here.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13754 posts, RR: 61
Reply 19, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 10271 times:
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Quoting moose135 (Reply 9):
In the United States, your constitutionally guaranteed Freedom of Speech only applies to the government restricting what you say. If this F/A worked for the federal government, there might be a freedom of speech issue

And even then, that's not entirely accurate. The First Amendment says, "Congress shall make no law..." in regard to restricting speech.

The government, as an employer, can and does restrict the speech of its employees as a condition of employment.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 10243 times:

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 19):
The government, as an employer, can and does restrict the speech of its employees as a condition of employment.

So, even if you work for the Federal Government, you are not protected under the Free Speech laws? This only applies when you are not employed, if I understand you correctly? Just want to make sure.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineCRJ900LR From United States of America, joined Mar 2011, 389 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 10186 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 5):
I wonder what the union for the AA FA's response is to all of this...... I wonder of AA followed the termination process correctly or not.

In the end AA has the final say weather he is employed or not, the union does not, the union can support him in his grievience, if one is filed, but AA gets the final word.


User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13754 posts, RR: 61
Reply 22, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 10186 times:
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Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 21):
Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 19):
The government, as an employer, can and does restrict the speech of its employees as a condition of employment.


So, even if you work for the Federal Government, you are not protected under the Free Speech laws? This only applies when you are not employed, if I understand you correctly? Just want to make sure.

The First Amendment states that the government cannot create laws that restrict the speech of its citizens. As being a government employee is a voluntary choice, it's perfectly legal for the government to have the same sort of workplace rules of conduct as a condition of employment that any other employer may have.

For example, my mother-in-law was a senior manager with the U.S. Department of Energy. While employed there, she oversaw many aspects of the department - most recently at the Savannah River National Laboratory - that were confidential in nature. She could not reasonably expect to use the First Amendment as a protection from dismissal if she were discussing confidential government business outside of work.

Similarly, a United States Postal Service employee could not reasonably expect to swear at a customer and use the First Amendment as protection from dismissal.

[Edited 2012-03-15 21:37:36]


"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 23, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 10105 times:

Quoting CRJ900LR (Reply 22):
In the end AA has the final say weather he is employed or not, the union does not, the union can support him in his grievience, if one is filed, but AA gets the final word.

Agreed. I just wanted to know what the union's stance is on this one. My bet is that they probably don't want to touch this with a 15 foot pole considering whats going on with AA in bankruptcy. They probably have bigger fish to fry.

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 23):
As being a government employee is a voluntary choice, it's perfectly legal for the government to have the same sort of workplace rules of conduct as a condition of employment that any other employer may have.

Gotcha. That is what I thought. Thanks.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineyvphx From United States of America, joined Jul 2009, 260 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 9 months 1 week 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 10118 times:

Call me wrong, but doesn't the 1st amendment covers free speech up/unto slander, obscene comments? So if in fact he decided he was protected against free speech; slandering your place of work is not covered.

If I was taken into my bosses office and I decided to swear like a mad man, cite untrue statements, and threaten him; I then would not have the 1st amendment covering me.

In most cases, 1st amendment only covers the right of free speech when it comes to the government or government agencies. Last I checked, AA is no (even in bankruptcy) a government entity.


25 Post contains images AirframeAS : There... fixed it for you. And you just answered your own question.
26 AR385 : I´m not familiar with labor law in the US. However, free speech or not, just out of common sense, you do not bash publicly the company you work for.
27 flyingcaT : Despite all the arguments about free speech the one issue that Mr. David will have a hard time defending is posting travel (date/destination) info on
28 Mcoov : Just to clear something up: The First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution protects a person's freedom of speech in the court of law, not in the court o
29 gaystudpilot : I'm always torn in these cases. - If an employee is this unhappy, disgruntled he/she should spend their energy finding another job - At some point I b
30 Post contains images PlanesNTrains : LOL! True! If only that were true. I've fired a number of people who have gotten unemployment. Here in the Seattle area, they bend over backwards to
31 EA CO AS : Well, being in the Seattle area you know the Washington state laws, particularly leave laws are FAR more relaxed and anti-employer than elsewhere in
32 ghifty : +1. I get tired of all these idiots running around screaming "free speech" (not here, but in real life). People need to realise that "freedom of spee
33 bjorn14 : ....or a judge. Usually, unless you are criminally prosecuted for an act at work you will get unemployment. I've seen some of the most worthless POSs
34 Post contains images PHX787 : Exactly. Nowhere does it say that an Airline can't terminate an employee for complaining about the company. I'm tired of hearing about these people c
35 flyingAY : In what kind of cases you're supposed to get the unemployment benefit over there?? Here you will not get unemployement benefit if you leave the job y
36 EA CO AS : I guess it just depends on the state, but here in AZ I've represented my company before many labor judges and have only had one uphold the awarding o
37 Post contains images ual777uk : I would be surprised if there were many co-workers at AA who would not agree with the above as well. Sure we all get peeved by our bosses every now a
38 DashTrash : Not quite. Flights attendants are bargaining employees covered under the RLA and can't be fired without violating something and that has to be proven
39 hamad : Seriously! when people do those things posting against their employers! If you are not that happy, please do your self a favor and find another job. S
40 ALTF4 : Finally, somebody else understands what freedom of speech means.
41 RyanairGuru : I don't work in aviation, but I have the exactly the same clause in my employment contract: if I bring the company brand into disrepute then I'm show
42 aztrainer : People misconstrue what they think their freedom of speech is and what it actually implies. You cannot go into a store and yell "fire" as part of your
43 sankaps : And herein lies the problem with the US airline industry. Where unions will defend what common sense says is not defendible (and what they themselves
44 DashTrash : I understand your sentiment I think the theory of it is to protect employees over safety issues. I remember delaying a flight because the flight atte
45 hrc773 : That's exactly what I did. I started working for an airline back when it was fun and they treated their employees like if they really cared for them.
46 135mech : WOW... I love all of the comments on this! It's truly sad that people can and will slander those they work for and yet fail to accept the consequences
47 thrufru : Actually, under the Railway Labor Act which governs Union/Management relations and most CBA's, the final word would actually be from the a mediator.
48 Post contains images qqflyboy : Before the termination, the union had already passed a resolution in support of the flight attendant, including legal representation. As for whether
49 qualitydr : I'm sure he's fighting it merely to make a point, which will then lead to financial settlement outside of a courtroom. If American has a case, they'l
50 777STL : You're wrong. Go look up what "at will employment" is and you'll find that employers need no reason to fire anyone they want, provided it's not discr
51 lhr380 : He's a netter!!!!!!! I watched just a little of one video and thought it was just to weird and stopped watching.....
52 DashTrash : Um, firing every employee of those groups mentioned would fit the definition of discrimination.
53 BMI727 : This should be very simple. They go to court, the prosecution blathers on for a while, American's lawyers enter some printouts from the blog into evi
54 EA CO AS : True, although in most cases the union pushes for reinstatement under a "last-chance agreement." Incorrect. The RLA does not mean every termination i
55 1stfl94 : Sounds about right this case. I feel bad for the guy for losing his job but you have to be careful about blogging whether its to do with your work or
56 AirframeAS : Question: Did AA terminate this FA following the At-Will laws of Florida or Texas? The reason why I ask is because their headquarters are in Dallas/Ft
57 lhr380 : I'm trying to understand this. He blogged and made fun of the company he worked fun on YouTube, got told off and told to stop/official warning, then C
58 EA CO AS : It would be based on wherever he's based. If he's a MIA-based Flight Attendant, the labor laws of Florida apply. But again, there are NO laws - regar
59 AirframeAS : Guess I was wrong. I was thinking originally that the TX laws apply because AA is Headquartered in Texas, which is obviously not correct as you point
60 Post contains links and images Superfly : So does this mean American Airlines will hire their first flight attendant since April 2001? Gailen David, a 24-year veteran of AA who was based in Mi
61 airportugal310 : I can attest to this phenomena, if you will...several of those types around me at a very small company. It's insidious, and a massive hindrance to an
62 JetBlueGuy2006 : I remembered reading a thread he was involved in, when I saw the story; I was 99% confident it was the same guy. Anyway, no one is questioning his ri
63 Post contains images TheCol : AA had every right to fire him.
64 Post contains images AirframeAS : Does anyone know who he is on this site? Who is it?
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