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The Rise Of The Electric Highway  
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19687 posts, RR: 58
Posted (2 years 6 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2318 times:

http://news.yahoo.com/first-big-piec...-highway-gets-juice-170557062.html

Quote:
CENTRAL POINT, Ore. — Following a trail blazed by Indians and pioneers in covered wagons, electric car drivers hit the road Friday to inaugurate the first major section of a West Coast "Electric Highway" dotted with stations where they can charge up in 20 minutes.

The stretch of 160 miles of Interstate 5 served by eight stations marks the next big step in developing an infrastructure that until now has been limited primarily to chargers in homes and workplaces.

This is an interesting example of how a little government investment can drive a big change in the free market.

There are three major barriers to the mass adoption of electric vehicles.

1) Lack of charging infrastructure
2) Charge-to-drive time ratio
3) Short range

This gets around issues (1) and (2). The frequency of the stations will reduce "stranding anxiety." Even if you miss one, you can hit the next one (usually). Also, the charge time is decreased at the higher voltage. 20 minutes per hour or so of freeway driving time.

That's still not even remotely competitive with my '10 Prius, which takes about ten minutes of fueling for every 8-10 hours of freeway driving time. But issues (2) and (3) will change with better technology (which is inevitable). Eventually, it will be more like ten minutes of charge per 2-3 hours of driving, and that is not so bad for most people who only rarely drive more than 90 minutes at a stretch.

When the price of fuel is so high and the price of electricity is so low, I think a large portion --even the majority of the driving public-- will start to embrace electric cars.

What do you think?

[Edited 2012-03-18 18:43:45]

121 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19687 posts, RR: 58
Reply 1, posted (2 years 6 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2290 times:

http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/News/2011/May/13051102.asp

Quote:
13 May 2011

A new carbon based material for supercapacitor electrodes could allow them to store the same amount of energy as a lead-acid battery but with much faster charge times. The porous material shows power densities an order of magnitude better than current carbon supercapacitors and can be made in a simple method that could be easily scaled to industrial quantities.

That is also going to change things a lot. The article mentions that the scientist who made this discovery thinks that it can be improved upon. With these EDLC's, it's possible that energy densities 3-10 times those of a lead acid battery could be achieved with charge times of a couple of minutes. That's pretty cool stuff. Imagine an EV that could drive 300 miles on a 2 minute charge. Not to mention what it's going to do to cell phones!


User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3375 posts, RR: 9
Reply 2, posted (2 years 6 months 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2265 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):
That's still not even remotely competitive with my '10 Prius, which takes about ten minutes of fueling for every 8-10 hours of freeway driving time. But issues (2) and (3) will change with better technology (which is inevitable). Eventually, it will be more like ten minutes of charge per 2-3 hours of driving, and that is not so bad for most people who only rarely drive more than 90 minutes at a stretch.

Very true and exciting if this really gets going as it has to.

Oil in the long term isn't going down so we only have this way to go and the US is more than capable on supplying its electricity needs and will be for years to come.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19687 posts, RR: 58
Reply 3, posted (2 years 6 months 1 day ago) and read 2252 times:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 2):
Oil in the long term isn't going down so we only have this way to go and the US is more than capable on supplying its electricity needs and will be for years to come.

And even if we stick with coal, the carbon footprint from powering the US auto fleet by electricity will be much smaller than by using gasoline or diesel. And imagine the political implications.

I bet this technology will improve very rapidly. I'd bet that the next car I buy (5-7 years) will be electric.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 4, posted (2 years 6 months 1 day ago) and read 2231 times:

It's gonna depend on where the technology goes, as usual. Brazil has the infrastructure for ethanol, but for a long time, until more recently, it was a total failure. Lately it's still of questionable benefit, with ethanol only being able to compete with gas depending on how high gas prices go, and that's on top of the huge amount of taxes we already pay at the pump.

Once the technology is here, and assuming it is competitive with gasoline, there won't be a need for subsidies to build up the infrastructure. Just like there was never any subsidies to build up gas stations. This is only an issue with electric cars because the technology is obviously not ready for prime time, and as such, they need this type of thing to promote it.

It's a waste of money, and could well turn into a Concorde-type failure (an example of what not to do) if the technology doesn't pan out soon enough.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6594 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (2 years 6 months 15 hours ago) and read 2134 times:
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Quoting PPVRA (Reply 4):
Just like there was never any subsidies to build up gas stations.

So - are you saying that not a single company that participates in the process of getting a gallon of gas dispensed in the gas tank of you car has NEVER gotten as subsidy?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3375 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (2 years 6 months 15 hours ago) and read 2112 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 5):
So - are you saying that not a single company that participates in the process of getting a gallon of gas dispensed in the gas tank of you car has NEVER gotten as subsidy?

I think the point was that the money invested on building gas stations themselves where you go to get it didn't require a subsidy in construction.

The process of turning oil into gas most likely has.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 4):
This is only an issue with electric cars because the technology is obviously not ready for prime time, and as such, they need this type of thing to promote it.

It's a step in the right direction, we can't rely on gas forever so this is one of several logical steps in ways to take things.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 4):
It's a waste of money, and could well turn into a Concorde-type failure (an example of what not to do) if the technology doesn't pan out soon enough.

The Concorde failed not because it was technically deficient. It was loud and pissed off NIMBY's for good reason and it was a gas guzzler and not feasible for the airline industry post de-regulation.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineRabenschlag From Germany, joined Oct 2000, 1007 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 6 months 15 hours ago) and read 2108 times:

Still waiting for a standardized exchangeable battery pack - fueling would mean to drive up to a station and exchange the empty pack for a full one.

User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6594 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (2 years 6 months 15 hours ago) and read 2104 times:
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Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 6):
I think the point was that the money invested on building gas stations themselves where you go to get it didn't require a subsidy in construction.

The process of turning oil into gas most likely has.

All the same companies.. no? Exxon, BP et al? -

It doesn't change the fact that the gas on you tank has subsides in it. Why not give same treatment to other fuel sources?

OR - take away the subsides for ALL fuel sources.



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 9, posted (2 years 6 months 14 hours ago) and read 2081 times:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 6):
The Concorde failed not because it was technically deficient. It was loud and pissed off NIMBY's for good reason and it was a gas guzzler and not feasible for the airline industry post de-regulation.

It was uneconomical. It could have been a huge success for transatlantic and transpacific flights where there are few if any NIMBYs.

[Edited 2012-03-19 07:45:29]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2086 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (2 years 6 months 14 hours ago) and read 2074 times:

I have my doubts whether the range of all-electric cars will ever be significantly improved. I think the automobile industry is going down the wrong route. By trying to design electric vehicles to be as close to traditional cars as possible, they will continue to raise false expectations and their products will continue to disappoint.

I think we should regard electric cars as another and a new way of transportation, and shouldn't measure it by the capabilities of fuel-driven cars. Electric vehicles will probably complement cars more than replacing them. For instance, why shouldn't we have electric cars for short distances in the city, and regular cars for cross-country driving.

Anyone who has been to a large Chinese city and seen the thousands of electric mopeds that wizz past without making a sound will know that the age of electric vehicles has already arrived. We just shouldn't expect it to be like fossil fuel cars just without the fossil fuels.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 11, posted (2 years 6 months 14 hours ago) and read 2072 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 8):
It doesn't change the fact that the gas on you tank has subsides in it.

Don't forget to mention the anti-subsidy royalties, taxes, bureaucratic licensing process/lack of access to new fields, etc. After all, you don't want to come across as biased in a discussion forum!



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 12, posted (2 years 6 months 14 hours ago) and read 2071 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 10):

I think you are closer to the right idea than anyone else.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6594 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (2 years 6 months 14 hours ago) and read 2065 times:
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Quoting PPVRA (Reply 11):
Don't forget to mention the anti-subsidy royalties, taxes, bureaucratic licensing process/lack of access to new fields, etc. After all, you don't want to come across as biased in a discussion forum!

Aww poor babies... No wonder they businesses run in the red ALL the time..a

I am glad you accept that gas companies get subsidies, after all you don't want to come across as biased in a discussion forum by making it sound that alternative fuel sources are the only ones getting tax payer money.



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7361 posts, RR: 5
Reply 14, posted (2 years 6 months 13 hours ago) and read 2048 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Thread starter):

When the price of fuel is so high and the price of electricity is so low, I think a large portion --even the majority of the driving public-- will start to embrace electric cars.

I think you can expect the price of electricity to skyrocket if electric cars begin to make serious inroads in the market, I read somewhere recently that if 10-15% of the US carpark were electric the US wouldn't have enough generating capacity to charge them up and continue supply to all other users at the current rates.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12541 posts, RR: 25
Reply 15, posted (2 years 6 months 13 hours ago) and read 2045 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 4):
This is only an issue with electric cars because the technology is obviously not ready for prime time, and as such, they need this type of thing to promote it.

At one time the automobile was not ready for prime time. The electric car is bringing with it lower emissions, access to wind and solar power, less dependence on energy that comes from unstable regimes. Lots of reasons to promote it.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 6):
The Concorde failed not because it was technically deficient. It was loud and pissed off NIMBY's for good reason and it was a gas guzzler and not feasible for the airline industry post de-regulation.

Actually those things are technical deficiencies. Add to that it's low range and low payload, and you have a pretty impractical product, despite the fact that BA finally found a way to make money with it near the end.

Quoting Rara (Reply 10):

Anyone who has been to a large Chinese city and seen the thousands of electric mopeds that wizz past without making a sound will know that the age of electric vehicles has already arrived. We just shouldn't expect it to be like fossil fuel cars just without the fossil fuels.

It should be interesting to see how things turn out. There are lots more things that can and should be done to promote electric cars.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineAustrianZRH From Austria, joined Aug 2007, 1384 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 6 months 13 hours ago) and read 2038 times:

Quoting Rara (Reply 10):
For instance, why shouldn't we have electric cars for short distances in the city, and regular cars for cross-country driving.

Because I would have to fork out 15k for the everyday-to-work car, and then another 15k for the visit-parents-and-go-to-ski-vacations car. The plug-in hybrid approach makes more sense. Use the e-motor for the short distances, and if you have a longer distance switch on the gas engine - same effect as your two-car approach but less investment needed into the hardware  .

However, for the time being electric cars are more a shift of the CO2 generation from the road to the power plant...


BTW, back to the article: what the heck is a 45 kW battery? POWER is not the same as ENERGY. Annoys me all the time in papers. 1 GW of PV cannot replace 1 GW of nuclear, for instance. You'd need 9-10 GW to get the same 9 TWh per year. These mistakes take all credibility out of the news articles.



WARNING! The post above should be taken with a grain of salt! Furthermore, it may be slightly biased towards A.
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 17, posted (2 years 6 months 13 hours ago) and read 2023 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 13):
Aww poor babies... No wonder they businesses run in the red ALL the time..a

You should repeat this in the face of those hurting to pay for gas.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 13):
I am glad you accept that gas companies get subsidies, after all you don't want to come across as biased in a discussion forum by making it sound that alternative fuel sources are the only ones getting tax payer money.

All those "foreign interventions" are probably worse for the price of oil than whatever the government thinks it can "secure supplies".

Quoting Revelation (Reply 15):
At one time the automobile was not ready for prime time. The electric car is bringing with it lower emissions, access to wind and solar power, less dependence on energy that comes from unstable regimes. Lots of reasons to promote it.

Any new technology brings great promises. None of them needs subsidies, especially since subsidies means you have to take money away from another use (possibly funding of another technology) to subsidize electric cars, which may or may not pan out in the next 50 years without or even with subsidies. Worse, you may end up subsidizing an entirely wrong approach to electric cars that actually hurts widespread adoption and development of this technology.

[Edited 2012-03-19 09:00:26]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12541 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (2 years 6 months 12 hours ago) and read 1996 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 17):
Any new technology brings great promises. None of them needs subsidies, especially since subsidies means you have to take money away from another use (possibly funding of another technology) to subsidize electric cars, which may or may not pan out in the next 50 years with or even without subsidies.

Sorry, but subsidies have helped pretty much every new technology.

Aviation: greatly subsidized by government air mail, military R&D, etc. Money taken away from railroads.

Computers: first funded by government for calculating artillery tables and early atomic simulation, further funded for ICBMs and Apollo. Money taken away from human computers.

Electricity: public right-of-ways, huge hydroelectric projects, atomic energy. Loser: coal miners.

And yes, some things never pan out, but does that mean we should do nothing?



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6594 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (2 years 6 months 12 hours ago) and read 1983 times:
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Quoting PPVRA (Reply 17):
Quoting mt99 (Reply 13):
Aww poor babies... No wonder they businesses run in the red ALL the time..a

You should repeat this in the face of those hurting to pay for gas.

I do, actually.. i do it all the time as part of my job  
Quoting PPVRA (Reply 17):
All those "foreign interventions" are probably worse for the price of oil than whatever the government thinks it can "secure supplies".

SO,. you agree with stopping subsidies for oil companies?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineRara From Germany, joined Jan 2007, 2086 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (2 years 6 months 11 hours ago) and read 1969 times:

Quoting AustrianZRH (Reply 16):
Because I would have to fork out 15k for the everyday-to-work car, and then another 15k for the visit-parents-and-go-to-ski-vacations car.

True, but if I understand it correctly, electric engines will have an amazing lifespan, because there is next to no wear and tear on the engine. The battery will age, however.

The first step would be to cut taxes for the second car. At least in Germany, if you have a second car you pay full taxes on it (considerable expense). I'm not pro-auto, don't even have one, but I'd love to see that done away with. People owning several cars for several purposes would help the automobile industry, and cut energy consumption in the long run.

Right now, if you're a family of four, and go on holidays once or twice a year, you almost have to get a car that is oversized for almost every time you use it.



Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19687 posts, RR: 58
Reply 21, posted (2 years 6 months 11 hours ago) and read 1963 times:

Quoting Rabenschlag (Reply 7):
Still waiting for a standardized exchangeable battery pack - fueling would mean to drive up to a station and exchange the empty pack for a full one.

If you have a capacitor with 3-10x the energy density of a lead acid battery and a 120 second charging time, why do you need that?

Quoting Rara (Reply 10):

I have my doubts whether the range of all-electric cars will ever be significantly improved.

Much like people probably once doubted that computers could ever made practical because they filled up a room? We haven't even scratched the surface of the sort of electrical energy we can store in a given mass of storage medium.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 14):
I think you can expect the price of electricity to skyrocket if electric cars begin to make serious inroads in the market, I read somewhere recently that if 10-15% of the US carpark were electric the US wouldn't have enough generating capacity to charge them up and continue supply to all other users at the current rates.

It is a serious issue and we are going to have to build more power plants. I hope that they will be nuclear, but I doubt it will happen. My guess is that they will be mostly coal. That said, even the most obsolete, creaking, leaky coal-fired plant is far more efficient in terms of CO2 output per unit energy than a gasoline engine in a car. And electricity itself is a very low-loss medium. IIRC, typically, you can get >90% of the energy stored out of a battery. Conversion to mechanical power by motors is also very efficient with less than 20% loss in most cases.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 22, posted (2 years 6 months 11 hours ago) and read 1956 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 18):
Sorry, but subsidies have helped pretty much every new technology.

Nope.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 18):
Aviation: greatly subsidized by government air mail, military R&D, etc. Money taken away from railroads.

Aviation was invented in the private sector. Further development of it has benefited from subsidies, but my point is that it isn't needed, just like cars never got the same benefit and have come a long way on their own.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 18):
Computers: first funded by government for calculating artillery tables and early atomic simulation, further funded for ICBMs and Apollo. Money taken away from human computers.

The history of computing goes much further back than the 1900s.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 18):
Electricity: public right-of-ways, huge hydroelectric projects, atomic energy. Loser: coal miners.

Electricity: another private sector invention, just like the telephone.

Public rights of way: unnecessary.

Huge hydroelectric projects: unnecessary and environmentally harmful.

Atomic energy: used to kill people, and as far as electricity generation, apparently uses technology heavily influenced by the first murderous purpose due to the R&D subsidies used in that field while there are other nuclear technologies that are less troublesome alternatives that didn't get subsidized.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 18):
And yes, some things never pan out, but does that mean we should do nothing?

Who wants to do nothing? Not me!

Technology serves one purpose: to make our lives better. Subsidies serve to hide the true cost of technologies, and hiding true costs only serves to fool us into making wrong choices.

[Edited 2012-03-19 10:46:49]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12541 posts, RR: 25
Reply 23, posted (2 years 6 months 11 hours ago) and read 1937 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 22):
The history of computing goes much further back than the 1900s.

Yes, and Babbidge was subsidised by the government too.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 22):
Aviation was invented in the private sector.

Guess who the Wright Brothers first customer was? You got it, the US Army!

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 22):
Further development of it has benefited from subsidies, but my point is that it isn't needed

Who knows? Many many technologies would not exist without subsidies. Some may have come to fruition on their own, other might not have.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 22):
Subsidies serve to hide the true cost of technologies, and hiding true costs only serves to fool us into making wrong choices.

When you are emperor of the world, feel free to start banning subsidies.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 21):
My guess is that they will be mostly coal.

Natural gas is making a big comeback with recent finds.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 21):
That said, even the most obsolete, creaking, leaky coal-fired plant is far more efficient in terms of CO2 output per unit energy than a gasoline engine in a car.

  



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 24, posted (2 years 6 months 10 hours ago) and read 1928 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 23):
Yes, and Babbidge was subsidised by the government too.

And that project never went anywhere.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 23):
Guess who the Wright Brothers first customer was? You got it, the US Army!

Did they use US Army funds to research and build the Wright Flyer? Nope, while others did indeed and failed.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 23):
When you are emperor of the world, feel free to start banning subsidies.

I don't like manipulating people or demanding they do things against their will, so clearly you are a much better fit for the job.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
25 DocLightning : Wait, you think the Interstate system is unnecessary? It should have been built completely free-market? Wow... imagine if we'd done it your way. We'd
26 Post contains links PPVRA : "The Philadelphia and Lancaster Turnpike, first used in 1795, is the first long-distance paved road built in the United States . . . because the Comm
27 FlyPNS1 : Wrong. The automobile struggled in its early days because the infrastructure (mostly dirt roads) could not support it. The automobile became popular
28 PPVRA : Struggled, but did not stop it. And road subsidies at best influence which technologies automakers are going to invest in, not whether they will buil
29 Post contains links mt99 : This is an intersting govermnet agency http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DARPA But only the government could make it viable.. Using tax dollars.. See, i d
30 PPVRA : An agency that takes private funds from the market, and diverts it to military use. Highly inefficient and expensive. Wrong. But it certainly doesn't
31 DocLightning : Oh yes it does. If the oil companies had to fund all the wars we've had to fight on their behalf, gasoline would be well over $10/gallon.
32 PPVRA : That I agree, but we don't need those wars.
33 Post contains links mt99 : It doesn't have a budget from the Department of Defense? http://www.darpa.mil/NewsEvents/Budget.aspx . Then why didn't the private companies build it
34 Revelation : The fact that I could mention his name and you knew it is substantial. Sure, his computers never ended up being used during his lifetime, but it has
35 MD-90 : Yawn. Somebody wake me up when a hybrid or electric is built that isn't either dreadfully expensive (Fisker and Karma), woefully impractical (Leaf) or
36 FlyPNS1 : No one would have bought the cars, if they didn't have roads to drive them on. The auto survived and thrived because there were roads already in exis
37 Rara : Yeah, but specialists never really doubted the potentials of computing, did they? They even formulated Murphy's Law and almost institutionalized tech
38 DocLightning : Did you see the article I just posted in post #2? 10x improvement in capacitance... and that's without the sorts of refinements we will almost certai
39 Post contains links and images tugger : Are you meaning Moore's law? Murphy's law has been around a lot longer than Moore's and applies to pretty much everything in existence, and pretty mu
40 Post contains images mham001 : But it is incrementally every year. Beyond that, there are the ever-present big breakthrough announced and coming down the pike. We shall see. That's
41 Revelation : There are various quotes around saying that in the 50s, IBM was afraid to enter the computer business because it thought the country would only ever
42 signol : I thought of that about 20 years ago, shame the concept has yet to take off. Or how about for the major highways, an electrified overhead mesh (like
43 DocLightning : And Bill Gates: "I laid out memory so the bottom 640K was general purpose RAM and the upper 384 I reserved for video and ROM, and things like that. T
44 Post contains images Rara : Ah bugger kinda confirmed old Murphy there. Thanks for pointing it out.
45 mham001 : Already being heavily researched, albeit it will be wireless embedded in the road.
46 StarAC17 : That seems to be a logical step the problem is that would have to be stadardised so it could be made to fit all cars or a select few for different si
47 Post contains images PPVRA : They did. Read the article. Thanks to this stuff popping up exactly during the years it did, it should't be surprising that the first major costumers
48 Post contains links and images mham001 : It sometimes astounds me the things people write with apparent straight faces. I'd be curious about your expertise regarding National Lab research, b
49 Post contains links mt99 : Ok got it - i misread it the first time. I apologize. But in any case - the Private company did not built it until PA determined it could not afford
50 Pyrex : So once again the government trying to pick up winners and losers, hum? Natural gas could be the future of transportation, or hydrogen could be it, bu
51 PPVRA : Not any single source, but reading I've done over time. And btw, I only glanced over the link, but it is full of "energy efficiency initiatives" that
52 Revelation : LOL! You haven't proven any of your points, and now the fact that things don't fit your world view, it's just an fluke of timing? Riiight. Let's just
53 Post contains links mt99 : Here are a few... http://www.heritage.org/research/reports/2011/05/whats-an-oil-subsidy The government has funded hydrogen fuel cell technology..
54 Post contains links mham001 : Which recent war in the middle east cannot be traced back to oil? (excluding Israel) Actually the government is also pushing others too. You might wa
55 FlyPNS1 : The private sector tried to build roads and perpetually failed. All you got was some piece-meal turnpikes that failed to provide a meaningful road ne
56 mham001 : Private companies also did not have the power of imminent domain to build those roads either.
57 PPVRA : The facts are that aviation was invented and developed by the private sector, and due to it's potential use in war, it quickly came under the influen
58 FlyPNS1 : They failed even when there were no subsidies. A high-speed network of roads connecting cities and allowing for TRILLIONS of dollars of commerce is i
59 PPVRA : Japan has very weak eminent domain powers, yet it has the infrastructure that would give liberals an orgasm. Eminent domain in yet another unnecessar
60 PPVRA : No they didn't, there was plenty of private road construction before. And at what cost??? You DESTROYED the railroad network that you had also helped
61 Post contains links mt99 : Despite this emphasis on tenant rights, the government exercises a formidable eminent domain power and can expropriate land for any public purpose as
62 Post contains links PPVRA : Narita is an example of how weak their eminent domain powers are, read up on the history of the farmers who didn't want to move and how long it took
63 PPVRA : At best, we've had DIMINISHED benefits thanks to your approach.
64 mt99 : So I guess we have dueling Wikipedia articles.. So - going with your "weak power" article ans Narita - it actually proves the opposite point that you
65 FlyPNS1 : Lots of construction, but not making any money. No, the automobile and airplane destroyed the railroad network. And I might note, the railroad networ
66 Post contains images PPVRA : The airplane destroyed long-range rail travel. The interstate highway system made it possible for medium range trips to be taken over by cars.
67 tugger : Actually no, the electric street cars also received favorable treatment, and there was also a coordinated effort by oil and auto companies as others
68 Revelation : We have no way of knowing what would or would not be inevitable. We do know what happened via government support. So you're saying the private sector
69 PPVRA : Actually yes. And no, GM did not kill electric street cars, that's a conspiracy theory. Indeed, unfortunately. Correct, it's obviously wrong. Nobody
70 tugger : And I would say cars and trucking are far more efficient modes for this type of transit than trains. Actually I do know about my own countries histor
71 PPVRA : You would GUESS. And no, it does not seem likely that it would be more efficient, especially given that it created urban sprawl and today's traffic j
72 Revelation : The point is they would not sell "just as they did" if the public did not invest lots of money in building and maintaining roads.
73 tugger : One does not equate the other. The fact that the human body's circulatory system has failures and weaknesses does not make it any less effective at d
74 mham001 : Not only a theory but a conviction. You just don't get it. That report IS the legal state definition of government subsidies. You can huff and puff,
75 DocLightning : The decision to use roads was more than just based on civilian factors. During WWII, both the US and the Nazis used railroads for domestic movement o
76 zckls04 : A small point, but there's a difference between lobbying for something, and bribery. The two have come to be synonymous due to the corruption endemic
77 DocLightning : You will notice that he has made a number of factually false statements that have been refuted with sources during this thread, and yet he has not re
78 Post contains links PPVRA : Investments in roads would grow as cars became more popular. There is indeed an efficiency in that. But there is also a cost, a cost that at times is
79 tugger : To use your words: Really? NEVER? Even when one is offered fair market value/rates for whatever is being "seized"? And where to not be able to acquir
80 zckls04 : In a representative democracy how can you advocate that politicians aren't allowed to advance the causes of their electorate if asked to do so?
81 mham001 : Merriam and Webster do not write legal definitions of words, they have nothing to do with this conversation. But going along with that.... Definition
82 PPVRA : And then the left accuses people like me of only thinking about money. Shame on you. No, Tugger, to take someone's house, farm or whatever against th
83 mham001 : Then what is it?
84 tugger : Sorry, in business, public, and for the individual that is not a good idea when applied without exception. Where has this ever been shown to be a goo
85 DocLightning : You claimed that Japan had no eminent domain. You did not concede you were wrong. You claimed that DARPA was privately funded. You were wrong. You cl
86 Revelation : If you were correct, why did Republican "Ike" even need to propose the Interstate Highway system? Right after WWII the car was well-developed, there
87 zckls04 : I'm afraid not. The point of representative democracies in all parts of the world is that the elected representative represents his constituents at a
88 PPVRA : Read the very link you posted and take some accounting and finance courses. Again, it's completely unnecessary. And? No I didn't. No I did not. Take
89 tugger : You apparently are not reading things very clearly. You made the comment that: Which means that you are not understanding how to read definitions: "t
90 PPVRA : But there is no grant of money in thing like accelerated depreciation and reduced royalty payments. You're the one not paying any attention. Those fu
91 zckls04 : No, your point was that "nobody should be allowed to lobby a politician for special treatment". I explained that lobbying is perfectly acceptable unl
92 tugger : Yes, there is money involved with "accelerated depreciation and reduced royalty payments". It is all about money. The money is always there. Money is
93 PPVRA : Nice spin. I specifically addressed the issue of lobbying - and agreed that it should be allowed - on my very first reply to you. Secondly, on the is
94 PPVRA : You don't know what those things are - and I don't blame you. That said, if you're gonna start making big claims about it, you have the responsibilit
95 Post contains links Revelation : We've seen tons of examples like http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independence_Air where the private sector grew way too fast (in 2 years, 200 daily depa
96 zckls04 : It isn't spin- I'm genuinely having trouble understanding your point- I apologize if I'm being dense. This was your very first reply to me: That does
97 Revelation : Your pathetic point that we can trust the public sector to provide public infrastructure has no basis in any reality that I'm aware of. Lots of count
98 Post contains links ozglobal : In France, after the great success of public bicycles with automated docking stations (25,000 bikes and 350 stations in central Paris for example), we
99 PPVRA : Don't put words in my mouth, I never said such thing. Further, when private sector businesses fail, they seize to exist. When public policy fails, it
100 ozglobal : May naysayers such as yourself said the same about vel-lib, the public bicycles, and they are a huge success. Let's hope you are equally wrong this t
101 zckls04 : We do not live in the 1700s. The requirements for road building are rather more complex these days. How would this work in practice? Would private co
102 Post contains links PPVRA : Indeed they are, but the methods for building roads today are much better too. Yes they would own the roads, and they would obtain right of way by pu
103 Revelation : What besides your persistent faith in capitalism would prevent a corporation from gaining and using monopoly pricing power? Laying down N roads side
104 zckls04 : Privatization in Europe has been universally disastrous. Look at the rail services in the UK- worse service for more money. You know why? Rail service
105 Revelation : As above, I suppose we could just have each company lay its tracks and roads side by side.
106 mham001 : Where is the logic here? Do you think? If I tell Joe he does not have to pay as much for something that I can normally sell at regular price, there i
107 PPVRA : Monopoly pricing power is not anywhere as ugly as you insinuate it to be. No, they can't just raise prices infinitely to maximize profit - that would
108 PPVRA : Where is the logic??? Let's see: Jurisdiction A has a 10% income tax. Jurisdiction B has an 8% income tax. Is jurisdiction B subsidizing their busine
109 zckls04 : With respect I think Economics 101 has not told you anything. You've failed to address any of the problems suggested in previous posts, and now you'r
110 PPVRA : Huh? No, I am claiming that there are problems with some of the privatization model. You are so illiterate about this subject you are not even aware
111 Revelation : My comments directly address the point you made, namely: My example shows how the private sector did create one massive program (Independence Air), d
112 PPVRA : Independence Air was a massive program? Oh no, there are plenty of examples where the private sector did not act prudently - and they fail. But that'
113 Post contains images zckls04 : Oh dear, your arguments are getting even weaker. I'm amazed that's possible. Rather than criticizing my grasp of economics why not try demonstrating
114 Revelation : As above, in 2 years, 200 daily departures to 37 destinations. Maybe in 1890, but today, things are quite different. You may see it that way, but I s
115 mham001 : In my area there once was a series of private roads. It was a complete mess, especially over the relatively remote mountains outside San Jose. Each l
116 mt99 : If you think like PPVRA, "subsidies" do not exist. There are no "subsides" to ANY industry.. Turns out that the Wind and Solar industry do not receiv
117 PPVRA : Because the idea that simply raising prices will naturally increase profits is demonstrably wrong by an econ 101 student. You are wasting my time. Yo
118 Post contains links and images Revelation : Striking off on a greenpeace bashing tangent? Right here in my town a highway was stopped not due to environmentalism, but because the landowners sim
119 PPVRA : Bashing? Too bad they had to go through all this process. Running out of arguments, are you? Uh oh, you had to throw in "businessman" in there, didn'
120 Revelation : If the shoe fits... Too bad the area didn't get the road it needed. I hope their grandkids don't bitch about traffic jams. You are the one not bother
121 PPVRA : It doesn't! If anything, I protected them. As if building more roads has ever solved traffic problems. When they are in a system set up by you, defin
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