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Chrysler Launches All New 640 Hp Viper Sportscar  
User currently offlinestasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3283 posts, RR: 6
Posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2488 times:

The big news from the New York Auto Show is NOT that the Subaru Outback wagon has been restyled or that the Lincoln MKZ has seat fabrics that mimick champagne bubbles - the REALLY BIG NEWS is that the beastly Dodge (now SRT) Viper sportscar has returned to the marketplace!

2013 SRT Viper


Featuring a all-aluminum, front-mid-engine 8.4-liter V-10 delivers an estimated 640 horsepower and 600 lb.-ft. of torque through a six-speed manual transmission - "the most torque of any naturally aspirated sports car engine in the world" says Chrysler, chassis enhancements bring 50 percent improvement in torsional stiffness, standard safety features include electronic multistage stability control, traction control and new 4-channel anti-lock brake system, all-new "innovative interior designs set new standards with premium materials, new technologies and superior craftsmanship", all-new carbon-fiber and aluminum skin is sculpted for high-speed stability and a slippery .36 drag coefficient (Cd), and a timeless exterior design incorporates "iconic Viper styling cues with a contemporary execution" gloats Chrysler from it's official press release. Please note that the engine does not offer any high-tech features like direct injection or supercharging - it's a naturally aspirated (but huge displacement) petrol engine.

The Viper is no longer sold as a Dodge - it is now sold as a "SRT" brand model instead (Chrysler's new high-performance division). Ultra-high-performance versions include a special "track" package with upgraded Pirelli sport tires and a GTS variant with a more luxurious interior, offering better interior materials and leather. Chrysler has moved away from it's pure sports car roots with this new-generation Viper by offering standard safety nannies such as electronic stability control and traction control help to maximize traction performance - and to keep over-confident drivers from launching the Viper into low-earth orbit and to keep lawsuits to a minimum. Finally, Chrysler will hand-build the Viper at its Connor Avenue assembly plant in Detroit, bringing approximately 150 auto workers back from layoff - which is good news for Detroit. No pricing has been released yet, but the Viper will definitely be very rare and very expensive. I personally think this new Viper looks sinister and mean, and looks like it would eat Corvettes for breakfast.

Source: http://www.leftlanenews.com/srt-viper.html

[Edited 2012-04-04 15:38:26]

[Edited 2012-04-04 15:44:45]


"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
47 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15781 posts, RR: 27
Reply 1, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2466 times:

Oh yes, bringing back the best of the Viper. A car that will try to kill you, and possibly make others want to kill you too. What's not to like?

As I said in the other thread, they took a few pieces from their corporate cousins (the good ones), but the overall package is wonderful, inside and out. Anyway, I can't wait to see what the guys at HPE can do with this bad boy.

Also, special props to Chrysler for giving the finger to CAFE with the SRT branding.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2455 times:

Hard to believe a couple of years ago Cerebus was trying to sell off the Viper during their disastrous ownership. But leave it to the folks at Fiat to help inject some Italian supercar and sportscar DNA to the Corvette's true American rival....

I love the fang in the grill, which on a quick glance looks like the standard Dodge "crosshair" grill, but the vertical element to is strikes right through the horizontal.

http://www.allpar.com/cars/viper/2012-dodge-viper.html

There are rumors that the Viper could be the basis of the next generation Maserati GranTourismo (Interestingly enough, early rumors had this the other way around.), and looking at the new Viper, I can visualize this being reworked into a Maserati.


User currently offlinestasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3283 posts, RR: 6
Reply 3, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 2447 times:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 2):
There are rumors that the Viper could be the basis of the next generation Maserati GranTourismo (Interestingly enough, early rumors had this the other way around.), and looking at the new Viper, I can visualize this being reworked into a Maserati.

Along with rumors that the Viper will underpin a new Alfa Romeo 8C, and autopress rumors also had the Viper being based on the Alfa 8C - just like the Maserati....

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
Also, special props to Chrysler for giving the finger to CAFE with the SRT branding.

And special props to Fiat for preventing the sale of the Viper brand - the "old" Chrysler nearly sold the Viper brand, factory, and tooling to raise cash!!   

[Edited 2012-04-04 16:28:09 by srbmod]


"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2259 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2381 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
Also, special props to Chrysler for giving the finger to CAFE with the SRT branding.

CAFE had nothing to do with giving it SRT branding, you have to get over your obsession with those laws. The ability to better market it globally and reinforce SRT=performance were the main drives behind the move.


User currently onlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1366 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2351 times:

Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
The Viper is no longer sold as a Dodge - it is now sold as a "SRT" brand model instead (Chrysler's new high-performance division).

Small correction/clarification- SRT has been around for quite some time. The previous Viper was sold as an "SRT-10."


User currently offlineKaphias From United States of America, joined Nov 2010, 310 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2308 times:

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 5):
Small correction/clarification- SRT has been around for quite some time. The previous Viper was sold as an "SRT-10."

Correction: The previous car was a "Dodge Viper SRT-10", it is now a "SRT Viper". Much like the Dodge Ram no longer exists...



Flown on: C150, C172, C206, Beaver, Otter, Jetstream 32, Q400, CRJ7/9, E135/40/45, A320, B732/4/7/8/9, B744, B752, B763
User currently onlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1366 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2290 times:

Quoting Kaphias (Reply 6):

Correction: The previous car was a "Dodge Viper SRT-10", it is now a "SRT Viper". Much like the Dodge Ram no longer exists...

Yeah you're right, the point is that while SRT as a stand alone brand is new here, the SRT badge itself is not.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39907 posts, RR: 75
Reply 8, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2264 times:

Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
8.4-liter V-10 delivers an estimated 640 horsepower and 600 lb.-ft. of torque through a six-speed manual transmission -

Sweet! !   
              


I was afraid that their next big announcement would be some new hybrid minivan.

Quoting srbmod (Reply 2):
There are rumors that the Viper could be the basis of the next generation Maserati GranTourismo (Interestingly enough, early rumors had this the other way around.), and looking at the new Viper, I can visualize this being reworked into a Maserati.

  
Great idea!
Perhaps a return of the Chrysler TC by Maserati but this time around, it will have some serious performance credentials!  
Would love to see this with hand stitched Corinthian leather seats.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineAvObserver From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 2472 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2235 times:

Sadly, only a relative handful of these beasts will be sold. The climate of rapidly rising fuel prices will give even some of those well heeled enough to afford them some pause. Even if bought just as a weekend toy, the spectre of possible $7.00 plus for premium gas in a couple years or so will further limit an already limited market for such a delightfully retrograde monster pavement ripper.

User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39907 posts, RR: 75
Reply 10, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2226 times:

Quoting AvObserver (Reply 9):
Sadly, only a relative handful of these beasts will be sold. The climate of rapidly rising fuel prices will give even some of those well heeled enough to afford them some pause. Even if bought just as a weekend toy, the spectre of possible $7.00 plus for premium gas in a couple years or so will further limit an already limited market for such a delightfully retrograde monster pavement ripper.

Do you think high fuel prices will hurt the sales of the V12 powered European sports cars?
Even if gas were to go back to $1 per gallon, sales would still be very limited because they are expensive to begin with. Not practical for everyday use and can only carry two passengers.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineAF1624 From France, joined Jul 2006, 664 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2213 times:

Do they finally have independent suspension or are they sticking with the all-American "all power, no grip" motto ?

  



Cheers
User currently online2707200X From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 8624 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2212 times:

Glad to see the Dodge Viper back in production.

Quoting AvObserver (Reply 9):
The climate of rapidly rising fuel prices will give even some of those well heeled enough to afford them some pause.

The people who are buying the Viper are not necessarily concerned with the price of gas on their behalf.



"And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by." John Masefield Sea-Fever
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39907 posts, RR: 75
Reply 13, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2201 times:

All of this talk about Chrysler and Maserati has me really exited about possibly seeing a return of these kinds of seats.   

Has any exotic sports car ever had plush seats?







Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinejohnkrist From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 1399 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2185 times:
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Will that be Lancia Viper in Europe? 
Still can't believe they renamed the Voyager to Lancia, that brand has a history of making crap cars in the 80's 90's, so bad that no dealer in Sweden wanted to be associated with it....



5D Mark III, 7D, 17-40 F4 L, 70-200 F2.8 L IS, EF 1.4x II, EF 2x III, Metz 58-AF1
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7565 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2147 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 10):

Do you think high fuel prices will hurt the sales of the V12 powered European sports cars?

No those V12 European sportscars have pedigree, history and desirable badges. Not many outside of North American have ever really wanted a Viper (or Corvette).


User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6127 posts, RR: 29
Reply 16, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2129 times:
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Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 15):
No those V12 European sportscars have pedigree, history and desirable badges

Of bankrupcy and various owners? Just like Chrysler; Chrysler even owned Lamborghini for a while.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 15):
Not many outside of North American have ever really wanted a Viper (or Corvette).

Doesn't really matter, there have been plenty of European cars that weren't all that desirable in the USA.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 8):
Perhaps a return of the Chrysler TC by Maserati but this time around

There is one for sale near my work. I always liked the looks of those cars.

Quoting Polot (Reply 4):
CAFE had nothing to do with giving it SRT branding, you have to get over your obsession with those laws. The ability to better market it globally and reinforce SRT=performance were the main drives behind the move.

That might be the official stance, but I am sure it had to do more with CAFE than with anything else. The same goes for Ram trucks losing the Dodge truck brand.

Quoting johnkrist (Reply 14):
that brand has a history of making crap cars in the 80's 90's, so bad that no dealer in Sweden wanted to be associated with it....

The last Lancias sold in the USA were junk too. Occasionly I'll still see one in a junk yard, but that is about it. I have a Car & Driver from 1980 and they lump praise on the Lancia but in another article they dump on the Chevy Monte Carlo. 32 years later and you never see a Lancia on the road, but 1980s Monte Carlos are a dime a dozen. There are two of them on my block alone. I like reading old car magazines and laugh when they lump praise on cars that turned out as being crappy and dump on cars that turned out to be good.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 10):
Do you think high fuel prices will hurt the sales of the V12 powered European sports cars?

no way... most exotic cars aren't driven all that much and if you can afford to buy one you can afford the gas. The few people I have known with exotic cars never drove them as a daily driver. I never see exotic cars (or even a Corvette) driving around in the snow or on a crappy day. I rarely see them beeing driven in the rain either. I know there are lots of places in the USA that have great weather all time, but I still doubt most owners drive them all the time. When I see advertisments for older exotic cars they rarely have a lot of miles on them.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlinebohica From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2717 posts, RR: 0
Reply 17, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2118 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 8):
I was afraid that their next big announcement would be some new hybrid minivan.

Please do not give Chrysler any useless ideas.  


I hope the Viper comes in black. I always wanted my own batmobile.  


User currently offline747400sp From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3677 posts, RR: 2
Reply 18, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2089 times:

Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
The big news from the New York Auto Show is NOT that the Subaru Outback wagon has been restyled or that the Lincoln MKZ has seat fabrics that mimick champagne bubbles - the REALLY BIG NEWS is that the beastly Dodge (now SRT) Viper sportscar has returned to the marketplace!



2013 SRT Viper



Featuring a all-aluminum, front-mid-engine 8.4-liter V-10 delivers an estimated 640 horsepower and 600 lb.-ft. of torque through a six-speed manual transmission - "the most torque of any naturally aspirated sports car engine in the world" says Chrysler, chassis enhancements bring 50 percent improvement in torsional stiffness, standard safety features include electronic multistage stability control, traction control and new 4-channel anti-lock brake system, all-new "innovative interior designs set new standards with premium materials, new technologies and superior craftsmanship", all-new carbon-fiber and aluminum skin is sculpted for high-speed stability and a slippery .36 drag coefficient (Cd), and a timeless exterior design incorporates "iconic Viper styling cues with a contemporary execution" gloats Chrysler from it's official press release. Please note that the engine does not offer any high-tech features like direct injection or supercharging - it's a naturally aspirated (but huge displacement) petrol engine.

Thank god!!!!!!!!!! It still has the V-10.


User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6127 posts, RR: 29
Reply 19, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2085 times:
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Quoting bohica (Reply 17):
Quoting Superfly (Reply 8):
I was afraid that their next big announcement would be some new hybrid minivan.

Please do not give Chrysler any useless ideas.

They had this concept on display at the Detroit Auto Show this year.

http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb309/NWA747/2012Autoshow163.jpg



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2259 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2074 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 16):
That might be the official stance, but I am sure it had to do more with CAFE than with anything else. The same goes for Ram trucks losing the Dodge truck brand.

It is Corporate Average Fuel Economy. It doesn't matter whether Chrysler brands it Dodge/Chrysler/Jeep/Ram/SRT/Plymouth/whatever, it will still have the same effect. Contrary to what some people seem to think, CAFE is not influencing every decision an automaker makes.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15781 posts, RR: 27
Reply 21, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2065 times:

Quoting AF1624 (Reply 11):
Do they finally have independent suspension or are they sticking with the all-American "all power, no grip" motto ?

The new one has traction control. Besides, with rear tires like that they'll have grip with any sort of suspension.

Quoting johnkrist (Reply 14):
Will that be Lancia Viper in Europe?

For the first time, it will probably be branded the same as in the US.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 15):
Not many outside of North American have ever really wanted a Viper (or Corvette).

Enough wanted them that both have been sold there.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 16):
That might be the official stance, but I am sure it had to do more with CAFE than with anything else. The same goes for Ram trucks losing the Dodge truck brand.

   That was the reason the Viper was nearly canned for good. Part of the wonderful thing about the Viper is that, besides being a great sports car, is that pretty much everything about it is a swift kick in the nuts to practicality and environmentalism.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 16):
The few people I have known with exotic cars never drove them as a daily driver.

There's a word for people who drive exotics every day. They are called 911 owners.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7565 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2059 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 16):
Of bankrupcy and various owners?

Ferrari has never been bankrupt and has only been sold once, to Fiat, Pagani has never been bankrupt, Porsche is going from strength to strength.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 16):

Doesn't really matter, there have been plenty of European cars that weren't all that desirable in the USA.

Well it does matter, Chrysler needs to sell them, if they don't sell it will go, Ferrari sells more cars in a year then Chrysler sells Vipers, maybe if they dropped in the Hemi V8 the car might be of more interest outside the US.

There might have been plenty of Euro cars which weren't popular in the US, (probably because they were never sold in the US), but they were popular in other markets outside Europe, something US designed cars haven't really managed.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 16):
32 years later and you never see a Lancia on the road, but 1980s Monte Carlos are a dime a dozen.

But you'll see old Lancias all over Europe, doubt you'll find a Monte Carlo.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 16):
I never see exotic cars (or even a Corvette) driving around in the snow or on a crappy day.

There's a guy that lives down the road from me who uses a Ferrari F430 as a daily driver, he's been driving it for the last 4 years, all year round, even when it snows.


User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6127 posts, RR: 29
Reply 23, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2047 times:
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Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 22):
But you'll see old Lancias all over Europe

I haven't seen that many old cars in Europe, not like you see on US roads. I saw more old cars in Switzerland than anywhere else on the continent. I was amazed how many I saw and nearly all of them were American cars.

I have seen 100s of old cars in the UK, but I spend my time in rurual north counrty where vintage cars and trucks appear to be as common as they are in the rural US.

I have seen plenty of old American cars in Germany too. The first time I was in Germany I was there for tweo weeks and only saw one 123 chassis Mercedes on the road and back home in Detroit they are still very common.

I have seen plenty of classics at European car shows, but I don't see cars from the 50-60-70s just driving around like I do in the USA.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 22):
There's a guy that lives down the road from me who uses a Ferrari F430 as a daily driver, he's been driving it for the last 4 years, all year round, even when it snows.

Most exotic car owners are not like that.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 21):
There's a word for people who drive exotics every day. They are called 911 owners

That is true!

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 22):
maybe if they dropped in the Hemi V8 the car might be of more interest outside the US.

why? That would be boring! Maybe that sounds good to some people but when you can get that engine in a pickup or sedan it isn't all that neat anymore.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 22):
Ferrari has never been bankrupt and has only been sold once, to Fiat

They weren't doing all that well when they sold out. Fiat has a poor reputation in some parts of the world.

Quoting Polot (Reply 20):
It is Corporate Average Fuel Economy. It doesn't matter whether Chrysler brands it Dodge/Chrysler/Jeep/Ram/SRT/Plymouth/whatever, it will still have the same effect. Contrary to what some people seem to think, CAFE is not influencing every decision an automaker makes.

I'm saying that every decision is made that way, but that is what was being reported in the press, in the Detroit area, a few years ago. They did away with Dodge Trucks for a reason and marketing in Europe wouldn't one of them. Big trucks don't sell there in large numbers, However I have seen Dodge Ram trucks in the Czech Republic, but only three. Which is two more than I saw anywhere else in Europe. I can't think of any good reason why you take an established brand and change it to something else. Dodge was only trucks and vans in the Canadian market for many years because Dodge was best known as a truck brand.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlinejohnkrist From Sweden, joined Jan 2005, 1399 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2047 times:
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Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 22):
But you'll see old Lancias all over Europe, doubt you'll find a Monte Carlo.

Hmm, not north of Rome. Stand next to one and say "winter" and it crumbles to a pile of rust.

Anyone who can afford a car that costs $300 per 100km to drive doesn't if a litre of gas costs $2.50 like it does here in Sweden



5D Mark III, 7D, 17-40 F4 L, 70-200 F2.8 L IS, EF 1.4x II, EF 2x III, Metz 58-AF1
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15781 posts, RR: 27
Reply 25, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2088 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 22):
Porsche is going from strength to strength.

Porsche spent a good portion of the 80s and 90s at death's door. Once they introduced the Boxster things turned around and have been great ever since, but before that they were financially shaky for some time.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6127 posts, RR: 29
Reply 26, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2082 times:
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Quoting johnkrist (Reply 24):
Hmm, not north of Rome. Stand next to one and say "winter" and it crumbles to a pile of rust.


just like a 1970s/80s Fiat. I have talked with people who had them and they said they would rust away before they were paid off. My 81 Ford F100 may be rusty, but the chassis and frame are solid and she is safe to drive. If I see a Lancia at the junkyard it is usually the rustiest thing in the place, and that seems to go for any older Italian car. You don't see many anymore because they all rusted away 20 years ago. Old Japanese cars were the same way, but they have greatly improved.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7565 posts, RR: 4
Reply 27, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2091 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 21):

Enough wanted them that both have been sold there.

They've only built 16,000 Vipers since production started, I bet there would be less than 500 in Europe.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 23):

why? That would be boring! Maybe that sounds good to some people but when you can get that engine in a pickup or sedan it isn't all that neat anymore.

Bentley have dropped a 4.2 litre V8 in the Continental, so I don't see any reason why the Viper couldn't have a second engine option.

Quoting falstaff (Reply 23):
They weren't doing all that well when they sold out.

Enzo sold to Fiat in the 60's, he only did it so he could have more money for racing, the road side of the business held no interest for him.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 25):

Porsche spent a good portion of the 80s and 90s at death's door.

That's a myth, they were never at deaths door.


User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2259 posts, RR: 1
Reply 28, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2069 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 23):
However I have seen Dodge Ram trucks in the Czech Republic, but only three. Which is two more than I saw anywhere else in Europe. I can't think of any good reason why you take an established brand and change it to something else. Dodge was only trucks and vans in the Canadian market for many years because Dodge was best known as a truck brand.

I think they separated out Ram so they could better market other commercial vehicles under the brand, plus they were running into issues with being pigeon holed with "Ram" styling on their cars, with mixed results. Honestly the Ram separation doesn't make sense and doesn't to most people (who just continue to call them Dodges, as I am sure they will with the new Viper), but I am also of the belief that they are slowly winding down the Dodge brand over the course of the next decade and going to replace it with Alfa Romeo...


User currently offlinestasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3283 posts, RR: 6
Reply 29, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2037 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 28):
Honestly the Ram separation doesn't make sense and doesn't to most people (who just continue to call them Dodges, as I am sure they will with the new Viper), but I am also of the belief that they are slowly winding down the Dodge brand over the course of the next decade and going to replace it with Alfa Romeo...

Chrysler is doing with the Ram brands what General Motors has done for years with the GMC (of the "We are professional grade!" slogan) brand - marketing a brand that only sells trucks. Since Freightliner is no longer part of Chrysler (Daimler got 100 percent of it in the divorce since Daimler owned Freightliner prior to the so-called "merger of equals"), Fiat is rumored to be anxious to sell it's line of commercial vehicles through the new "Ram" marketing/dealership entity. Fiat has announced plans to bring their heavy truck subsidiary (known as Iveco in Europe) to the American market. Fiat chairman Sergio Marchionne has already stated publicly that he'd like to see the full line of Iveco trucks sold here in the home of the brave by the end of 2013.

And I honesty do not think the Dodge brand is going to be replaced by Alfa Romeo. The new Dart (which is based on an Alfa Romeo platform) would have been the perfect "jumping off" spot if Fiat really wanted to reintroduce Alfa Romeo to the "mainstream" U.S. market - but in my mind Alfa is much more likely to replace the Chrysler brand in my mind (Alfa is seen as a premium brand by Fiat, just like Chrysler) - or Chrysler could replace (decaying) Lancia altogether in Europe if Fiat decides to keep the Chrysler brand.



"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7565 posts, RR: 4
Reply 30, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 1992 times:

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 29):
Fiat has announced plans to bring their heavy truck subsidiary (known as Iveco in Europe) to the American market. Fiat chairman Sergio Marchionne has already stated publicly that he'd like to see the full line of Iveco trucks sold here in the home of the brave by the end of 2013.

IVECO is no longer owned by Fiat, it was spun off in 2011 along with all there other non automotive divisions.


User currently offlineJJJ From Spain, joined May 2006, 1862 posts, RR: 1
Reply 31, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 1967 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 30):
IVECO is no longer owned by Fiat, it was spun off in 2011 along with all there other non automotive divisions

IVECO is owner by Fiat Industrial, whose CEO is Sergio Marchionne (yes, the same Marchionne, CEO of Fiat S.p.A.) and whose main shareholder is the Agnelli family (again, same as Fiat).

The separation from Fiat was a largely cosmetic operation.


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7565 posts, RR: 4
Reply 32, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 1928 times:

Quoting JJJ (Reply 31):
The separation from Fiat was a largely cosmetic operation.

The Agnelli family holding company Exnor S.p.A own 30.45% of Fiat S.p.A and 30.45% of Fiat Industrial S.p.A, as I said Fiat Industrial was de-merged from Fiat, Fiat no longer own IVECO.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15781 posts, RR: 27
Reply 33, posted (2 years 6 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 1888 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 27):
They've only built 16,000 Vipers since production started, I bet there would be less than 500 in Europe.

It was never a lot (same for Corvette) but they were officially sold in Europe for some time under the Chrysler brand. I think that they were referred to as Chryslers when racing in Europe too.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 27):
That's a myth, they were never at deaths door.

Death's door might be overstating it, but the situation was far from rosy. The combination of a weak US economy, currency issues, and executive turmoil put Porsche in a very unenviable situation during the late 1980s and early 1990s. Their turnaround in the years since is quite a feat.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinestasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3283 posts, RR: 6
Reply 34, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 1855 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 32):
The Agnelli family holding company Exnor S.p.A own 30.45% of Fiat S.p.A and 30.45% of Fiat Industrial S.p.A, as I said Fiat Industrial was de-merged from Fiat, Fiat no longer own IVECO.

Is IVECO a seperate subsidiary? The below article (from yesterday) states Fiat is IVECO's parent company, and that IVECO's commercial vehicles (especially the IVECO line of vans) will indeed be sold through approximately 2,400 "Ram" dealerships in North America. So it looks like Chrysler has a great replacement for their Dodge Sprinter (aka Mercedes) cargo van.

Source: http://www.nasdaq.com/article/iveco-...with-van-after-2013-20120405-00944



"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7565 posts, RR: 4
Reply 35, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 1836 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 33):
I think that they were referred to as Chryslers when racing in Europe too.

There were initially sold as Chryslers, then in 2005 they were rebranded to Dodges, in the UK they wewre sold as Dodge SRT-10's. When racing they were Viper GTS-R

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 34):

Is IVECO a seperate subsidiary? The below article (from yesterday) states Fiat is IVECO's parent company, and that IVECO's commercial vehicles (especially the IVECO line of vans) will indeed be sold through approximately 2,400 "Ram" dealerships in North America.

Since 2011 there are now two different Fiats, Fiat S.p.A. and Fiat Industrial S.p.A. Fiat Industrial is the parent company for IVECO. The interesting thing is Fiat Auto makes vans and IVECO makes vans, but they are not the same vans.

IVECO Daily

http://dayerses.com/data_images/posts/iveco-daily/iveco-daily-10.jpg

Fiat Ducato (also sold by Peugeot and Citroen)



User currently offlineJJJ From Spain, joined May 2006, 1862 posts, RR: 1
Reply 36, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1797 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 35):
Since 2011 there are now two different Fiats, Fiat S.p.A. and Fiat Industrial S.p.A. Fiat Industrial is the parent company for IVECO.

Sure, but they share the same CEO and have very similar ownership structure.


User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7565 posts, RR: 4
Reply 37, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 1778 times:

Quoting JJJ (Reply 36):

Sure, but they share the same CEO and have very similar ownership structure.

No they don't, Sergio Marchionne is CEO of Fiat S.p.A. and Chairman of Fiat Industrial, the Chairman of Fiat S.p.A. is John Elkann (grandson of Gianni Agnelli), the CEO's of Fiat Industrial are Alfredo Altavilla (IVECO) and Harold Boyanovsky (CNH Global). They are separate companies linked only via Exnor S.p.A. the Agnelli family holding company, Exnor owns a 30.45% holding in each company.


User currently offlineAvObserver From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 2472 posts, RR: 9
Reply 38, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1561 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 10):
Do you think high fuel prices will hurt the sales of the V12 powered European sports cars?
Even if gas were to go back to $1 per gallon, sales would still be very limited because they are expensive to begin with. Not practical for everyday use and can only carry two passengers.

I realize they're ALL niche market cars from the get-go but the niche will shrink even below where it had been because of the economic malaise partly caused by such high fuel prices; also certain factions have created a stigma that cars such as these are now socially unacceptable and while hardly most prospective buyers will be swayed by that, some will be. Some of the vaunted Euro models may even start downsizing their powerplants and using turbos, superchargers and the like because of new E.U. fuel economy and emissions mandates. Prior exemptions from such Draconian standards may well be revolked in tears to come. Smaller engines are being discussed for upcoming Corvettes; Viper may too have to follow in time to comply with aggressive CAFE regulations. Not my preference but cars like these are most surely living on borrowed time unless more sensible energy policies are implemented to get fuel prices back to more reasonable levels.


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15781 posts, RR: 27
Reply 39, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1560 times:

Quoting AvObserver (Reply 38):
also certain factions have created a stigma that cars such as these are now socially unacceptable

The Viper has never been socially acceptable. And that's why we love it.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineAvObserver From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 2472 posts, RR: 9
Reply 40, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 1476 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 39):

The Viper has never been socially acceptable. And that's why we love it.

I'm not demonizing Viper but others are; along with more useful SUVs and such. When you've, in my opinion, near-Draconian fuel mileage standards coming down the pike, how long can carmakers hold onto cars like this if it threatens their fleet average? I've got to think that high-powered V10 autos are on the endangered list unless carmakers unite to slow down the upcoming regulations.
http://www.nhtsa.gov/About+NHTSA/Pre...+54.5+mpg+Fuel+Efficiency+Standard


User currently offlinestasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3283 posts, RR: 6
Reply 41, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 1471 times:

Quoting AvObserver (Reply 40):
I've got to think that high-powered V10 autos are on the endangered list unless carmakers unite to slow down the upcoming regulations.

The SRT Viper is a "halo" vehicle for Chrysler/Fiat. It's meant to bring buyers into their showrooms, who will stare in amazement at the Viper, and perhaps the saleperson will get them to test-drive a new Dodge Dart or Charger, or maybe sell these dreamers a nice, shiny new Jeep Cherokee! On a serious note, Chrysler is using the Viper to be competitive with the higher-end models of the Corvette line - like the Corvette ZR1 and the Z06.



"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39907 posts, RR: 75
Reply 42, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 1471 times:

Quoting AvObserver (Reply 40):
in my opinion, near-Draconian fuel mileage standards coming down the pike, how long can carmakers hold onto cars like this if it threatens their fleet average?

The government is setting it very high knowing that car makers can't meet those figures. They're just looking for new ways to generate more taxes.
Our government has gone wild.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineAvObserver From United States of America, joined Apr 2002, 2472 posts, RR: 9
Reply 43, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1377 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 42):
The government is setting it very high knowing that car makers can't meet those figures. They're just looking for new ways to generate more taxes.
Our government has gone wild.

Much agreed on that last count and wondering how that drive can be slowed down. I'm for better fuel economy where possible but not for legislating car choice out of existence. If we had a responsible energy policy, there'd be no reason for such extreme regulations. We could see overall fleet averages be incrementally raised over a much longer period of time while ramping up our own energy production where feasible and avoid killing cars people actually like to drive.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39907 posts, RR: 75
Reply 44, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 5 days ago) and read 1313 times:

Quoting AvObserver (Reply 43):
I'm for better fuel economy where possible but not for legislating car choice out of existence.

CAFE laws is like mandating that people drink water.
People are going to do it anyway. Fuel efficiency was going up years before the first CAFE laws were introduced in 1975. As I've stated many times before, car companies were stressing fuel efficiency as a selling point long before the first oil embargo. The 1958 AMC Ambassador boasted about being the first compact car (by standards of that era) to feature luxury options only found on bigger, more expensive cars. They knew that smaller cars were going to be the way to go in the future. George Romney was saying this back in the 1950s.
The suburbanization and longer commute times throughout the 50s & 60s increased demand for smaller cars.
Even if gas were to drop to $1 a gallon tomorrow, people will not rush out to buy a 640HP Viper.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 45, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 1302 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 44):
Even if gas were to drop to $1 a gallon tomorrow, people will not rush out to buy a 640HP Viper.

I'm not so sure.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 44):
CAFE laws is like mandating that people drink water.
People are going to do it anyway. Fuel efficiency was going up years before the first CAFE laws were introduced in 1975.

Somewhat, but in the end Fuel economy is a directly inverse function of how much consumers are willing to pay for their transportation. If a family feels comfortable spending around $100 per month on gas (based on how much disposable income they have), and travel about 1000 miles per month, they will tailor their car purchases accordingly, no matter if gas is $1 per gallon or $5 per gallon. The difference is only if gas is at $1, they don't mind having a car that gets 10 MPG, so they might get a Hummer, whereas the same family will by a Prius with $5 gas.

CAFE was developed out of politics. The government wanted to push fuel economy higher, but was not willing to do the politically unpopular thing that would most directly push people to buy more efficient cars - raise the taxes on gasoline. So they came up with this convoluted, bureaucratic method of trying to force car companies to build cars nobody wanted (the car companies compensated with price, having to almost give away the small cars at little or no profit margin).

But CAFE also had a loophole big enough to drive a truck through - literally. Trucks (rather loosely defined) were exempt from CAFE, so consumers who were still willing to pay a gas bill, but car companies were pushing on them some pretty awful cars at the time (late 70s early 80s in particular), went to a segment that previously had sold in very limited numbers to farmers and tradesmen - the pickup truck and its enclosed cousins - and the SUV craze was born, after becoming fashionable - free of CAFE limitations, car companies were happy to oblige.

So thanks to the US government, we now have these massive, inefficient monsters on the road in massive numbers, like 500hp Porsche Cayennes, Hummers and Suburbans. You're welcome.

Had the government decided to phase in additional gas taxes at 5 cents per year from 1975 to the present, Americans would have never gotten into SUVs, and we'd be driving cars very similar to what they have in Europe today, and our oil imports would be a fraction of what they are today.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39907 posts, RR: 75
Reply 46, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1283 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 45):
But CAFE also had a loophole big enough to drive a truck through - literally. Trucks (rather loosely defined) were exempt from CAFE, so consumers who were still willing to pay a gas bill, but car companies were pushing on them some pretty awful cars at the time (late 70s early 80s in particular), went to a segment that previously had sold in very limited numbers to farmers and tradesmen - the pickup truck and its enclosed cousins - and the SUV craze was born, after becoming fashionable - free of CAFE limitations, car companies were happy to oblige.

At that time, a luxury truck was completely unheard of. The idea of urban folks driving a truck as an everyday vehicle was unheard of. Trucks & SUVs of that time were stripped down and you'd be lucky if you got FM stereo as an option.


I found a speech by former AMC CEO, George Romney where he talks about compact cars being the future just after WWII.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZHYbyA9Ovo&feature=relmfu

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKyzZhOeDL8&feature=relmfu



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineMolykote From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 1341 posts, RR: 15
Reply 47, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1280 times:
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Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
slippery .36 drag coefficient (Cd)

In other words, the same as a Chevrolet Tahoe Hybrid! Not awful for a car where dramatic flared styling was obviously a priority, but not "slippery".

Porsche 911 Turbo S = 0.31
Porsche 911 Turbo S cabrio = 0.32
Porsche Cayenne = 0.35
Chevrolet Corvette = 0.28
Chevrolet Corvette Z06 = 0.34 (with deliberate aero tweaks to increase balance/stability)
M-B W211 E-class = 0.26

I have to say that I do love the Viper. My tastes are more toward handling than power, but the sledgehammer approach is appealing now and then.



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