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Voter ID Issue Discussion  
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 3458 times:

The Obama Administration (Eric Holder in particular) denies that voter fraud is a problem, so James O’Keefe went and obtained Holder's ballot, no problem.

The video shows a young man entering a Washington, DC polling place at 3401 Nebraska Avenue, NW, on primary day of this year--April 3, 2012--and giving Holder’s name and address. The poll worker promptly offers the young man Holder’s ballot to vote.

The young man then suggests that he should show his ID; the poll worker, in compliance with DC law, states: “You don’t need it. It’s all right. As long as you’re in here, you’re on our list, and that’s who you say you are, you’re okay.”

http://www.youtube.com/embed/P5p70YbRiPw

By the way - the fine for not purchasing health insurance under Obamacare is $95 per person in 2014 (or 1% of taxable income, whichever is greater), $325 in 2015 (or 2%), and $695 in 2016 (or 2.5%). Thereafter, the mandate is indexed to inflation.

So how come penalizing you for not buying insurance is not a burden, but insisting on an ID to vote (less than $10 per year in most states, free in others) IS a burden.

I'm in favor of healthcare mandates (within certain criteria), but need help with Obama's logic here.



Discuss! Should people have to show their ID to vote? Is it an undue burden?


Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
184 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6612 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3447 times:
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Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
voter fraud is a problem,

It depends on the type fraud you are trying to prevent. Illegals voting? or just one person voting for another?

In the first issue, what is a "good" ID? Passport? Birth Certificate? License or State ID is obviously not good enough.

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
The Obama Administration (Eric Holder in particular) denies that voter fraud is a problem, s

Was fraud problem when GWB got elected (twice!!)??

That being said, i am in favor of asking for ID to vote. The ID should be akin to a National ID and should be free to obtain by any citizen. That should cover all you requirement no?

But i can heat the GOP now: (1) the govt want us to have National ID? They want to track us! and (2) how much would it cost?? we have no money!!!



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineKingairTA From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 458 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3436 times:

For those who think having to show id vote hurts the poor and the minorities just remember they need an id to participate in welfare programs, buy alcohol, cigarettes, drive a car, open a bank account, cash a check at a bank or check cashing store etc etc.

User currently offlinedfwrevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 984 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3436 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
So how come penalizing you for not buying insurance is not a burden, but insisting on an ID to vote (less than $10 per year in most states, free in others) IS a burden.

No need to jump through mental hoops drawing analogies to a different situation. The Supreme Court has ruled that Voter ID laws are constitutional and help protect the integrity of elections. See below:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crawford_v._Marion_County_Election_Board

The stink raised by the Obama administration is that those southern states which still require election pre-clearance from the Department of Justice under the Voting Rights Act of 1965 are attempting to systematically disenfranchise the poor by placing unreasonable burdens on them. Keep in mind that the South Carolina law being challenged gives the photo ID away for free and provides a 1-800 number to call for free transportation to a government office to obtain the ID.

It would figure that the most transparent, post-racial President and AG would throw the race/poverty card to oppose a fundamentally constitutional measure to uphold due process.  
Quoting mt99 (Reply 1):
License or State ID is obviously not good enough.

Why not? The IDs issued by states have every anti-counterfeit feature you would put in a national ID card. Elections are administered by the states, not the federal government.

[Edited 2012-04-09 15:19:52]

User currently onlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6612 posts, RR: 6
Reply 4, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3416 times:
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Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 3):
Why not? The IDs issued by states have every anti-counterfeit feature you would put in a national ID card. Elections are administered by the states, not the federal government.

Beacuse state ID or licenses do not prove citizenship

Plus, Obama wad able to forge a Birt Certificate from 1961. Didnt he? :$



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 5, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3409 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 1):
In the first issue, what is a "good" ID? Passport? Birth Certificate? License or State ID is obviously not good enough.

Since elections are managed by the states, I think state ID should be sufficient, but only if actually issued by the state (not a student ID or similar). National ID such as a Passport or national ID (see below) should be fine as well. A birth certificate is worthless as ID, as it has no picture.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 1):
That being said, i am in favor of asking for ID to vote. The ID should be akin to a National ID and should be free to obtain by any citizen. That should cover all you requirement no?

But i can heat the GOP now: (1) the govt want us to have National ID? They want to track us! and (2) how much would it cost?? we have no money!!!

Quite apart from the voting issue, I think a national ID is a good idea, and would be indicate citizenship/residency status, and should be a requirement to get any job, or receive any federally managed benefits.

But I see no reason why it should be free. An administrative fee of $10-20 is perfectly reasonable.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently onlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6612 posts, RR: 6
Reply 6, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3397 times:
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Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
But I see no reason why it should be free. An administrative fee of $10-20 is perfectly reasonable.

So you want the Govmt to force you to buy broccolli as well?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
Since elections are managed by the states, I think state ID should be sufficient, but only if actually issued by the state (not a student ID or similar

Those do not prove citizenship. Do you want illegals voting?

So, for the second time: this wasnt a problem when GWB got elected or when the GOP took the 2010 elections?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5496 posts, RR: 14
Reply 7, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3398 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 1):
It depends on the type fraud you are trying to prevent. Illegals voting? or just one person voting for another?

No, it doesn't. Fraud is fraud.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 1):
Was fraud problem when GWB got elected (twice!!)??

A little red herring.

Voters should be required to provide an ID to register to vote:
-passport
-birth certificate
-naturalization certificate
-anything that proves citizenship

Then a voter should be required to provide an ID to vote. A driver's license or non-driver ID should suffice since in order to register, the person in question would have had to prove citizenship.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 4):

Because state ID or licenses do not prove citizenship

If that does prove to be a problem, then the ID can specify voter or non-voter, much like current IDs in some states distinguish an under 21 ID rather prominently.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently onlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6127 posts, RR: 29
Reply 8, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3398 times:
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Quoting KingairTA (Reply 2):
For those who think having to show id vote hurts the poor and the minorities just remember they need an id to participate in welfare programs, buy alcohol, cigarettes, drive a car, open a bank account, cash a check at a bank or check cashing store etc etc.

not to mention enroll their children in school.

I hear the argument that voter ID laws also cause problems for the elderly. I belong to a social club where a vast majority of members are elderly and I have had this discussion with them. They all tell me that they needed ID to open a bank account. Nearly all Social Security payments are direct deposit so they need to have a bank account to deposit them in. Those that still get a check get are required to show ID to cash the check.

I live in a lower middle/lower class area and check cashing places are as common as dirt and a lot of them are in liquor stores. I frequent those liquor stores and I can tell you that the ones by my house have signs saying you need a state ID to cash a check or money order. I also go to some payday loan place by my house because they have a fee free ATM and it is closer than the nearest credit union ATM and they have a sign on the window saying ID is required to cash checks and make loans.

Who are these "voters" who have no ID and how do they function in society?



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlinedfwrevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 984 posts, RR: 51
Reply 9, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 3396 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 4):
Beacuse state ID or licenses do not prove citizenship

The election administrators are still going to match the name on the photo ID to a list of registered voters in a given precinct. Citizenship is established during voter registration.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19953 posts, RR: 59
Reply 10, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3379 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
The Obama Administration (Eric Holder in particular) denies that voter fraud is a problem, so James O’Keefe went and obtained Holder's ballot, no problem.
Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
The video shows a young man entering a Washington, DC polling place at 3401 Nebraska Avenue, NW, on primary day of this year--April 3, 2012--and giving Holder’s name and address. The poll worker promptly offers the young man Holder’s ballot to vote.

So he's committed a felony and SHOULD be in jail right now. Is he? If not, then why not?

But I'd be fine with the requirement to show an ID if submitting a ballot were mandatory for all citizens, like in Australia. You don't have to vote (you can submit a blank one) but you have to submit one.


User currently onlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21681 posts, RR: 55
Reply 11, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3378 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Should people have to show their ID to vote?

People should have to show a form of ID to vote.

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Is it an undue burden?

Depending on the sort of ID that would be required, and how easy they are to obtain, perhaps.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineKent350787 From Australia, joined May 2008, 967 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3368 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
But I'd be fine with the requirement to show an ID if submitting a ballot were mandatory for all citizens, like in Australia.

Interestingly, you don't need to show ID here. At times, the electoral commission has forwarded non-compulsory voting cards, but it seems pretty pointless. Most eligible voters would have, or be named on, a Medicare card (non-photo), or drivers license or equivalent phot ID is readily availbel for nearly all eligible voters.


User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5496 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 3361 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
So he's committed a felony and SHOULD be in jail right now. Is he? If not, then why not?

Actually, he does not handle a ballot, nor does he actually say tha he's Holder, nor does he sign for the ballot. He just asks "Do you have an Eric Holder?" He provides an address. Really, that's all. The poll worker assumed he was Holder. Note, around 2:15 he doesn't handle the other ballot at all.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
But I'd be fine with the requirement to show an ID if submitting a ballot were mandatory for all citizens, like in Australia. You don't have to vote (you can submit a blank one) but you have to submit one.

Why would you tie the 2 together?

I find it incredible that we don't require ID to vote. It makes absolutely no sense at all. All the arguments against are easily refuted and border on irresponsible.

What we need ID's for:
Driving
Flying
Opening a bank accunt
Cashing a check
Entering some Federal Facilities
Paying Bills
Get a credit card
Use a credit card
Get Health Insurance
See a doctor for the first time
Get a passport
Give Blood
Get a loan
Enroll in school
Ship packages
Receive packages
Donate money to a political campaign (at least you're supposed to provide some)
Buy a gun
Check into a hotel
Rent a car
Get married
Get divorced
Buy a car
Get a phone
Establish utility service

Does it really make sense not to require ID for voting?



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently onlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6127 posts, RR: 29
Reply 14, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3354 times:
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Quoting fr8mech (Reply 13):
What we need ID's for:

Don't forget getting a hunting or fishing license.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 13):
Entering some Federal Facilities

entering a defense contractor's plant.

My dad does business with some firms that are defense contractors and he has had to show proof of US citizenship to walk onto the plant floor.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 15, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3348 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
The Obama Administration (Eric Holder in particular) denies that voter fraud is a problem

Eric Holder is an idiot. Why he is the U.S. AG is beyond me. I don't like the guy nor his views on the Obamacare.

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
By the way - the fine for not purchasing health insurance under Obamacare is $95 per person in 2014 (or 1% of taxable income, whichever is greater), $325 in 2015 (or 2%), and $695 in 2016 (or 2.5%). Thereafter, the mandate is indexed to inflation.

Huh? Source? I read it was $1K for every month a citizen does not have health insurance.

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
I'm in favor of healthcare mandates

In this rough economy, I am not. If one is required to have health insurance, then the government will not stop at requiring citizens to have other items, such as a cell phone (hello, big brother), celery, etc...

Quoting mt99 (Reply 1):
In the first issue, what is a "good" ID? Passport? Birth Certificate? License or State ID is obviously not good enough.

Passport and/or birth certificate is a start.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 1):
the govt want us to have National ID?
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
I think a national ID is a good idea

How many times do I have to repeat this?! Your National ID is your passport! You have some form of ID that is issued by the U.S.A. and has been like that since the existence of this country. I have both, the regular passport and the passport card.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 10):
So he's committed a felony and SHOULD be in jail right now. Is he? If not, then why not?

Ageed, but he is trying to prove a point on two things: 1) To show that Eric Holder is an idiot. and 2) To show how easy it is to impersonate someone at the polls. Keep in mind that the majority of the folks who are running the polling stations are Seniors with nothing else to do. That is also saying something..... But I am not age discriminating anyone...its just that some Seniors are too trusting with others. Back in the 40's and 50's, a lot of people around that time used to be able to leave the house without locking their doors....

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 13):
What we need ID's for:
Driving
Flying
Opening a bank accunt
Cashing a check
Entering some Federal Facilities
Paying Bills
Get a credit card
Use a credit card
Get Health Insurance
See a doctor for the first time
Get a passport
Give Blood
Get a loan
Enroll in school
Ship packages
Receive packages
Donate money to a political campaign (at least you're supposed to provide some)
Buy a gun
Check into a hotel
Rent a car
Get married
Get divorced
Buy a car
Get a phone
Establish utility service
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 13):
Don't forget getting a hunting or fishing license.

  



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5496 posts, RR: 14
Reply 16, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3338 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 15):
How many times do I have to repeat this?! Your National ID is your passport! You have some form of ID that is issued by the U.S.A. and has been like that since the existence of this country. I have both, the regular passport and the passport card.

Yes, but a passport is not compulsory, thus does not act as a National ID.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 15):
Ageed, but he is trying to prove a point on two things:

Again, tell me what this man did illegal.

Let's keep the debate on target...voter ID.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 17, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 3329 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 16):
Yes, but a passport is not compulsory, thus does not act as a National ID

Yes it does. It is issued by the U.S. Government.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 16):
Again, tell me what this man did illegal.

Identity theft...for starters. It does not matter if a person is trying to see if a specific someone was on the voter rolls. The person working at said polling place SHOULD have asked for ID before going any further than that.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 16):
Let's keep the debate on target...voter ID.

It has always been on topic.   



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5496 posts, RR: 14
Reply 18, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3318 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 17):
. It does not matter if a person is trying to see if a specific someone was on the voter rolls.

So, if I were to go up and ask to know whether my son is on that particular roll, I've committed ID theft?

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 17):
The person working at said polling place SHOULD have asked for ID before going any further than that.

Is he REQUIRED to?

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 17):
Yes it does. It is issued by the U.S. Government.

No, it does not. It may be issued by the the U.S. government, but it is not a national ID. It is not compulsory. No law enforcement official can demand it as a form of identification. I'd hazard, that in some parts of the country, some people have never seen one. A passport, in the U.S., has one official function, to grant re-entry into the United States. I have used it as a form of identification to enter some military facilities, but a driver's license would have worked just as well.

Can it be a national ID? Yes, but its cost may prove to be a barrier. $135 for an initial book. Even the $55 for a initial card may be too steep.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 17):
It has always been on topic.

When you entertain the notion that what is depicted in the video is illegal, you're chasing the red herring.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 19, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3305 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 18):
So, if I were to go up and ask to know whether my son is on that particular roll, I've committed ID theft?

There is probably many ways to commit ID theft, directly and indirectly. In my eyes, this is ID theft indirectly.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 18):
Is he REQUIRED to?

I don't know, but I do know in some states it is required....Arizona, for example.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 18):
No, it does not.

Yes it does! It has your picture and your info right on there with the biometric thing. Tell me this: What is required for a citizen to get a passport. Work from that.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 18):
Can it be a national ID? Yes, but its cost may prove to be a barrier. $135 for an initial book. Even the $55 for a initial card may be too steep.

I agree on that. But it is a start.....

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 18):
When you entertain the notion that what is depicted in the video is illegal, you're chasing the red herring.

Your opinion. However, I was not the only one entertaining that notion.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinehomsaR From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1189 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 3306 times:

Is this an actual problem, or are we imagining that it is a problem?

Whether or not someone can go into an election office and pretend to be someone else, and the actual evidence that people are doing so are two different things.

I've heard plenty of claim that there is this "voter fraud" problem, but not much in the way of actual statistics indicating how much it happens.



I was raised by a cup of coffee.
User currently offlineGuitrThree From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2054 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 3282 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 19):
There is probably many ways to commit ID theft, directly and indirectly. In my eyes, this is ID theft indirectly.



No it's not. If I walk into a bank and ask if they have $50,000 cash and then walk out, it is simply really different from saying "I have a gun and give me $50,000. He asked for INFORMATION and was given it. He never once attempted to vote on that ballet. You're either blind or partisan. And as usual, I'm guessing the later. Quit looking like a fool and look at the facts.

[Edited 2012-04-09 19:01:02]


As Seen On FlightRadar24! Radar ==> F-KBNA5
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 22, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3265 times:

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 21):
No it's not.

Yes it is, and I stand by my argument whether you agree or not.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13140 posts, RR: 15
Reply 23, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3258 times:

There is a long history of voter and election fraud in the USA. From 'getting the dead vote', disposing of ballots of the opposition party, bribing drunks, using confusing ballot layouts, someone filling out an absentee ballot for a relative or claiming to be one, altering the collection of votes (even easier in new model computer/digital voting machines), there are many ways over the years voter fraud has occurred. Most states have strict laws that at least reduce that risk. One major problem for the USA is that we don't have a National ID card or citizen registration (unless one is a naturalized citizen)

One problem is that over the years the process to register has been made easy in the USA, perhaps too much so, with potential fraudulent voting possible. When I initially registered to vote in 1972, you had to present your original raised seal birth certificate and other ID (drivers license) to a actual government official in person. In the USA since the late 1970's generally voter registration is done by mail, on trust and penalties only if you are caught in a fraud.

The real issue against stricter voting ID rules is that prior to 1965, most African Americans in the Southern USA states were in fact excluded from voting. The whites used various methods from 'poll taxes', intelligence tests, intimation if a Black person tried to register or try to vote. Most persons of color believe strict voter ID requirements at the polling place is a throwback to those evil days and won't tolerate it. Then you have older as well as other voters that may have issues in getting original documents needed to get a State issued ID, if cheaply or easliy get the documents or get the ID card if in a distant place or with other issues.

Politicians don't want to lose any votes from older voters or from non-white voters or tagged as racist if want major ID rules in conflict with those (mostly Republicans) that want to use the ID law to suppress Democratic party or leaning voters. I suspect this is an issue that will continue to be a battle site and hopefully a sound balance will develop to make sure elections are fair, voters have access without abusive procedures and those not qualified to vote are kept out.


User currently onlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21681 posts, RR: 55
Reply 24, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3257 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 15):
2) To show how easy it is to impersonate someone at the polls.

Putting together a fake ID is pretty easy as well. Next time this guy just cooks up an ID with Eric Holder's name and address on it, slaps his own photo on, and then he gets Holder's ballot when he shows up at the polling station.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 18):
No law enforcement official can demand it as a form of identification.

No law enforcement official can demand any particular form of ID, whether it's issued by the federal government or the state.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 25, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3303 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 24):
No law enforcement official can demand any particular form of ID, whether it's issued by the federal government or the state.

Yes, they can. So what do you do when you get pulled over and is asked for license, registration and proof of insurance? Give him/her the registration and insurance only?



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently onlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21681 posts, RR: 55
Reply 26, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3300 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 25):
Yes, they can. So what do you do when you get pulled over and is asked for license, registration and proof of insurance? Give him/her the registration and insurance only?

They're asking for the license because you're driving a car, and they want to make sure you're qualified to do so. That the license doubles as an ID is incidental - even if it didn't double as an ID, they'd want to see it (such as when you go to the FAA to take a flight check - they want to see your certificate, but only to establish your qualifications, since it doesn't have a photo - they'll also want to see some form of photo ID to establish your identity). The police can't mandate you show them a particular document in order to identify yourself. They can create standards (such as something with a photo), but they can't insist solely on a passport, or solely on a driver's license, etc.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 27, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3307 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 26):

Fair point, but when a cop on the street stops you when you are walking on the sidewalk and he/she asks for ID for their investigation, you have to show it. If you don't, they can legally detain you until you or someone can identify you. There was a thread on the Arizona immigration law a year or two ago and this exact subject came up on that.

Quoting Mir (Reply 26):
They can create standards (such as something with a photo), but they can't insist solely on a passport, or solely on a driver's license, etc.

Then what is the solution? The National ID is out of the question as the majority of Americans do not want it. But then again, we already have one: The U.S. Passport.

But nevermind that, some people here don't believe it is a National ID when it was issued by the U.S. Government all along. The postal service does not issue it, the State Department does. That is good enough for me. At the same time, I asked earlier:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 19):
Tell me this: What is required for a citizen to get a passport.

I should clearly that: a U.S. Passport.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Azerbaijan, joined Oct 2003, 14077 posts, RR: 62
Reply 28, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3304 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 18):
Can it be a national ID? Yes, but its cost may prove to be a barrier. $135 for an initial book. Even the $55 for a initial card may be too steep.

The Indians are currently IDing every citizen. This means more than a billion people. Every citizen gets an ID card including biometrical data (since many poorer Indian´s fingertips are worn down due to physical work, a retina scan is also taken).
There are several reasons for this motion:
- to fight corruption and sleeze. E.g. aid to poor people is often pocketed by corrupt civil servants, who falsify receipts.
- many million Indians are virtually identityless and can´t vote or claim pensions or welfare because they don´t exist for the state.
- to prevent election fraud.

I doubt that each booking will be as expensive vas the you claim.
The whole motion is being carried by an Indian equivalent of Bill Gates, who uses the brightest IT brains to get the problems sorted.
One example: each applicant will have his data (this includes the fingerprint and retina scans) crossmatched against the whole database to prevent fraudsters from registering multiple times under different identities. Imagine the computer power required to do this!

Jan


User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 4020 posts, RR: 4
Reply 29, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 3264 times:

In the UK you get sent a polling card several weeks prior to the election, but you don't need it to vote. Infact you don't need anything to vote - just walk in, state your name and address and they give you the ballot paper.

And we don't have widespread voter fraud, so perhaps the better fix would be to solve the underlying sociological issue rather than try and force everyone to carry a form of ID.


User currently offlineGuitrThree From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2054 posts, RR: 8
Reply 30, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3240 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 22):
Yes it is, and I stand by my argument whether you agree or not.

Umm, you do know that voting records ( list of registered voters names, their addresses, and when they voted) are public documents, and are open to the public. Right? Thats how you get all those advertisements in the mail. The candidates go get the voting data from your local voting office. Heck, anyone can do the same. So, using your logic, I guess every candidate is committing ID Theft too. They are just doing it thousands of times more.

No, you're wrong any way you put it. He just ASKED for INFORMATION in a different method. He went there with the intention of showing how easy it is to illegally vote, and no intention of voting at all. And was he ever wildly successful.

Why don't you move on to the more important part of this discussion about how easy it is to illegally vote, and ask yourself why the Democrats are pushing so hard to make mandatory ID during voting illegal?



As Seen On FlightRadar24! Radar ==> F-KBNA5
User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 4020 posts, RR: 4
Reply 31, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3227 times:

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 30):
No, you're wrong any way you put it. He just ASKED for INFORMATION in a different method.

I just watched the video, and I have several issues with it personally.

Firstly, he didn't "ask for information in a different method", he did something that that polling officer has probably seen dozens of times that day - he asked 'do you have "me"'. 'Yes, you do have "me", great'. There is little reason to do that just to verify someone elses deails - it can be comfortably presumed that if you are there and you are asking, then you are asking to vote under that name, not that you are requesting someone elses infromation.

Secondly, aside from most of the video being meaningless cuts and quick shots, he keeps going back to the black man saying "there is no proof that there is a problem", as if his video disputes that - yet not once did he actually show anyone else other than himself trying to vote illegally.

He didn't disprove the point being made - he only proved it was possible to vote without ID.

Seems very "Michael Moore" in character, I must say.


User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 4025 posts, RR: 28
Reply 32, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3200 times:

Serious question - why is this even an issue up for discussion? Requiring an official photo ID to vote is of the most basic common sense. What are the people who are against it trying to protect?

BTW, suggest you watch the other videos, funny as heck. There is the dead people voting in New Hampshire, but registering Tim (Timothy) Tebow and Tom (Thomas) Brady to vote in Minnesotta has to be a classic. "Oh, I am sorry, Tom Brady can't come out, he is too depressed, can I just register him myself instead?"   



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5496 posts, RR: 14
Reply 33, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3192 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 19):
I don't know, but I do know in some states it is required....Arizona, for example.

And, that is the crux of the debate. I would like to see every state require an ID in order to vote. An ID that matches the name on the roll.

Quoting homsaR (Reply 20):
Is this an actual problem, or are we imagining that it is a problem?

Whether it is a problem or not, apparently there exists the distinct possibilty that voter fraud exists.

I couldn't recall what it took to register to vote, so I looked it up. In Kentucky, you fill out a form, affirm a couple of things through your signature or mark and 'poof' you're registered to vote. I looked up the information in the other jurisdictions I lived (Tarrant County, TX & King's County, NY) and basically found the same thing. There is no requirement that any form of ID need be shown at registration. In my opinion, until that is fixed, ID at the poll is a stop gap. I still feel that an ID must be shown at the poll, but we have to go deeper and require it, with proof of citizenship, at registration.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 19):
Yes it does! It has your picture and your info right on there with the biometric thing. Tell me this: What is required for a citizen to get a passport. Work from that.

It is an identification. It is issued by the U.S. government. And yes, you have to prove that you're a citizen to obtain one. But, there is no requirement that you obtain one. It is not mandatory. Much like it is not madatory that anyone have any ID. We do not have a national ID system. We have an ID that can be used as a national ID, but is not used and can not be used as such because of certain hurdles (cost among them).

Quoting moo (Reply 31):
he asked 'do you have "me"'

No, he did not say "Do you have me, Eric Holder?" He said "Do you have an Eric Holder?"

He was asking for information. We can only suppose that the poll worker assumed that the person in the video was Eric Holder and was going to provide him with Eric Holder's ballot. The man never represented himself as Eric Holder...came close, but never did it.

Quoting moo (Reply 31):
it can be comfortably presumed that if you are there and you are asking,

Which is why we should do what we can to prevent fraud. Because it is so easy.

Quoting moo (Reply 31):
He didn't disprove the point being made - he only proved it was possible to vote without ID.

Which is a problem.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2739 posts, RR: 8
Reply 34, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3190 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
So how come penalizing you for not buying insurance is not a burden, but insisting on an ID to vote (less than $10 per year in most states, free in others) IS a burden.

Good question.

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Discuss! Should people have to show their ID to vote?

Yes. A valid State ID where you have to proove your citizenship

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Is it an undue burden?

No. As has been stated you need a valid ID to do just about anything in this country.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 1):
Illegals voting? or just one person voting for another?

All the above.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 1):
The ID should be akin to a National ID and should be free to obtain by any citizen. That should cover all you requirement no?

We already have that n the form of our passports.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 4):
Beacuse state ID or licenses do not prove citizenship

But they could if required.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 6):
So, for the second time: this wasnt a problem when GWB got elected or when the GOP took the 2010 elections?

It has always been a problem. But even more so now with the huge amount of illegals.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 15):
How many times do I have to repeat this?! Your National ID is your passport!

Correct. And it could be changed into a simpler form. Do we really need all the stamp spots in the book? It should be changed.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4672 posts, RR: 2
Reply 35, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3190 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
The young man then suggests that he should show his ID; the poll worker, in compliance with DC law, states: “You don’t need it. It’s all right. As long as you’re in here, you’re on our list, and that’s who you say you are, you’re okay.”

This part of voting always amazes me, but it highlights some simple facts.
1, If you are registered to vote, you are on your polling location's forms.
2. When you announce who you are, the name is crossed off.

If voter fraud was rampant, you would imagine there would be many cases of folks running in and finding out someone had already voted as them.

I think voter fraud is not the most pressing issue, as the time constraints and logistics of deciding where voter fraud can be used to an advantage and knowing who and who is not on the ballot list is next to impossible.


That being said, I think an ID would be nice, but I don't really think there is a widespread problem looking for an expensive solution.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 4020 posts, RR: 4
Reply 36, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3181 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 33):
No, he did not say "Do you have me, Eric Holder?" He said "Do you have an Eric Holder?"

And that is a question asked in a context where one can acceptably presume a given intention.

Having worked as a polling station volunteer in the UK on four occasions, I can offer my experience that you get asked similar questions regularly during a polling day - a lot of people tend to identify themselves at a polling station by asking a question similar to the above rather than a statement of identity. But I doubt they are all fraudulently voting...

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 33):
He was asking for information. We can only suppose that the poll worker assumed that the person in the video was Eric Holder and was going to provide him with Eric Holder's ballot. The man never represented himself as Eric Holder...came close, but never did it.

So? Again, in the given context, one can reasonably presume the intention of the question - you don't go to a polling station to refresh your marketing list, you go to vote. Every question asked of the polling officers can reasonably be interpreted in that context.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 33):
Which is why we should do what we can to prevent fraud. Because it is so easy.
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 33):
Which is a problem.

Is it a problem of such magnitude that spending billions of dollars solving is worth the outcome? Because anyone defrauding an election on a professional or organised basis won't be trivially stopped just by the requirement to show ID.

You are going to have to ensure that anything you enact will not prevent legitimate voters from voting - and thats not easy, unless you are going to issue them with that ID for free. And a lot of people do not want to hold a state or federal identification document out of principle - how do you reasonably allow them to vote?


User currently onlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6612 posts, RR: 6
Reply 37, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3179 times:
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Quoting windy95 (Reply 34):
It has always been a problem. But even more so now with the huge amount of illegals.

So you re saying that GBW and the 2010 election were won because of illegals?

Quoting windy95 (Reply 34):

We already have that n the form of our passports.

Which is not free,,..Want to make it free? I am all for that!

Quoting windy95 (Reply 34):
Quoting mt99 (Reply 4):
Beacuse state ID or licenses do not prove citizenship

But they could if required.

Required by whom exactly? The Federal Government as to violate the rights of the states? I would LOVE to hear your answer to this one.



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlinehomsaR From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1189 posts, RR: 0
Reply 38, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 3177 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 23):
There is a long history of voter and election fraud in the USA. From 'getting the dead vote', disposing of ballots of the opposition party, bribing drunks, using confusing ballot layouts, someone filling out an absentee ballot for a relative or claiming to be one, altering the collection of votes (even easier in new model computer/digital voting machines), there are many ways over the years voter fraud has occurred. Most states have strict laws that at least reduce that risk. One major problem for the USA is that we don't have a National ID card or citizen registration (unless one is a naturalized citizen)

You bring up a lot of points, but only one that I can see ("getting the dead to vote," which happened a long time ago, no indication it is still a real problem today) could be resolved with an ID requirement. The other issues, particularly when it comes to ballot layouts (which had demonstrable impacts on voting and election results 12 years ago), or how computers with no paper trail count votes, would not be resolved by IDs, and those have actually happened.



I was raised by a cup of coffee.
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 39, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3151 times:

In response to complaints about requiring some sort of ID to vote....


Call me an elitist, but if you don't have your personal affairs in sufficient order to secure a state-issued picture ID card I'm not sure you are ready to participate in the political workings of a republic. With rights come certain responsiblities - I think establishing who you are in fact is a reasonable requirement to place on those who want a say in the future of the country!


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 40, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3152 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 34):
We already have that n the form of our passports.
Quoting windy95 (Reply 34):
Correct. And it could be changed into a simpler form. Do we really need all the stamp spots in the book? It should be changed.

Which is it? You say that the passport serves the function, but should be simplified, getting rid of all those pages. A passport NEEDS those pages in order to serve as a passport.

A passport is a document conforming to international standards required for foreign travel. They must be in a certain format (book, with stampable pages), which by necessity costs a bit of money. Not everyone needs a passport.

A national ID card would simply be the photo/data page out of the passport. But non-citizens should be able to have a national ID as well (unlike passports), so a key difference for the national ID card is that it prominantly states your status, either citizen, or student visa (with expiration date), or green card (with expiration date) etc.

Most states provide official ID cards for $10 to $15 for those I checked. I'm sure a national one can be done for a similar amount.

Quoting casinterest (Reply 35):
This part of voting always amazes me, but it highlights some simple facts.
1, If you are registered to vote, you are on your polling location's forms.
2. When you announce who you are, the name is crossed off.

If voter fraud was rampant, you would imagine there would be many cases of folks running in and finding out someone had already voted as them.

I was thinking about that, and I have no idea how or if that is reported at all. A voting official, faced with a crossed off name and someone insisting that he is that person and who presents a photo ID to prove it would probably get waved through, and the official isn't sure if the mark was made by accident or did someone really commit fraud. What happens if someone gives a false name, and the name is crossed off already? Is the person held for questioning, or is he allowed to walk away, saying, "Oh well, I guess I forgot I already voted"?)

And then of course you have the fact that many people don't bother to vote, and if you know a few names from the local nursing home you have a pretty good chance of picking a few "good ones". In a country where only around half of eligible people vote, there is a lot of wiggle room.

Overall I think the main problem is that such incidents are simply not documented, and may happen quite often.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 4020 posts, RR: 4
Reply 41, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3150 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 39):
Call me an elitist, but if you don't have your personal affairs in sufficient order to secure a state-issued picture ID card I'm not sure you are ready to participate in the political workings of a republic. With rights come certain responsiblities - I think establishing who you are in fact is a reasonable requirement to place on those who want a say in the future of the country!

Ahem - "papers please!"


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 42, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3145 times:

Quoting moo (Reply 41):
Ahem - "papers please!"

Stupid comment. Smitty is right - with power (to participate in the direction of the country) comes responsibility.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 4020 posts, RR: 4
Reply 43, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3136 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 42):
Stupid comment. Smitty is right - with power (to participate in the direction of the country) comes responsibility.

You consider the US government being "responsible" these days with the power thats been granted to them?

DMCA, SOPA, ACTA, the TSA, the PATRIOT Act, "Free Speech Zones" etc etc etc


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6639 posts, RR: 24
Reply 44, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 3133 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 40):
Overall I think the main problem is that such incidents are simply not documented, and may happen quite often.

Maybe because they rarely ever happen. Sorry, but if fraud was such a problem, you'd be hearing more about it. The bigger question is why do some people get so worried about voter fraud with little evidence that it really happens? What's the real agenda behind all this "concern" about voter fraud?

And the bigger question is why would anyone commit voter fraud? What gain is there? Unless it's done on a massive and organized scale, it's unlikely to have much impact on the election.

I don't have a problem showing ID to vote, however, I don't think voter fraud is a real problem to start with and there are other areas that are far more problematic.


User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5496 posts, RR: 14
Reply 45, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 3120 times:

Quoting moo (Reply 36):
You are going to have to ensure that anything you enact will not prevent legitimate voters from voting - and thats not easy, unless you are going to issue them with that ID for free. And a lot of people do not want to hold a state or federal identification document out of principle - how do you reasonably allow them to vote?


I have no problem with a free ID given to citizens who are eligible to vote. No problem with that at all. I would caution that it should be used only for voting and not as some sort of general ID.

Those who do not hold a state ID already refuse to participate in all the activities, and many more, that I listed in reply 13. Do you think they vote? And, if they do vote, I do believe it should be incumbent on them to prove citizenship.

The integrity of our free election process is that important.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 4020 posts, RR: 4
Reply 46, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 3121 times:

Rather than IDs, you may as well just issue out polling cards with a valid unique token for that election, and only allow votes to be cast when a valid card is produced.

Thats your proof of ID for that election.


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11720 posts, RR: 15
Reply 47, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 3117 times:

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 3):
Elections are administered by the states, not the federal government.

Why, then, did the FEDERAL COURT decide our president in 2000?

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
the fine for not purchasing health insurance

People rant and rave that it is "free" health care. But ever single American will purchase health care at a REASONABLE price. None of this $600 a month with $5000 deductable garbage.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 7):
Quoting mt99 (Reply 1):Was fraud problem when GWB got elected (twice!!)??
A little red herring.

No, it is not. Proving a point. No one was interested in "voter fraud" until a Democrat got into the White House. All of a sudden, the far right wing starts screaming about needing to count every ballot and make sure every vote is legitimate. Remember when the right-wing was screaming about voter fraud when people were just adding random names to registration rolls? The state would have thrown those names out. There would have been none of those fake names on the ballot rolls. The state would make sure of that. But, since an organization who helps innercity people register was the target, it stands to reason they are the only ones who commit voter fraud? Really? No one on the right has ever in the whole history of this nation has ever committed voter fraud?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6865 posts, RR: 34
Reply 48, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 3107 times:

It is utterly indefensible from an intellectual standpoint to not support the use of IDs to vote.

Voter fraud is a bigger problem than most people reqalize, especially in our big cities; the stories are plentiful of bussing to different precincts, of dead people voting, it happens frequently.

This is one topic where I am absolutely vehement and passionate about: our right to vote is SACRED. Our nation shed blood to maintain the right of self-determination and integrity in our elections and yet it's treated as a game by many, particularly on the left.

Every poll states that the overwhelming number of Americans support a voter ID bill, yet the loony left hangs on to its outdated and baseless claims of voter disenfranchisement. What they forget is that it is us--citizens who protect and value our very right to vote--that are the ones who get disenfranchised by unchecked fraud.


User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 4020 posts, RR: 4
Reply 49, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 3107 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 47):
Why, then, did the FEDERAL COURT decide our president in 2000?

They didn't - the Florida Supreme Court ruled on several things, and the Federal Supreme Court ruled on constitutional matters related to the Florida Supreme Courts rulings.

The Federal Supreme Court didn't rule on anything directly related to the Florida election, it was all constitutionally based. The Florida Supreme Court could have then gone back and made an amended, constitutional ruling, but they chose not to.


User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 4020 posts, RR: 4
Reply 50, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3096 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 48):
This is one topic where I am absolutely vehement and passionate about: our right to vote is SACRED. Our nation shed blood to maintain the right of self-determination and integrity in our elections and yet it's treated as a game by many, particularly on the left.

Funnily enough, I agree with you on that, but my view is the polar opposite of yours - I think that because the right to vote is sacred and hard won, there should be as few obstacles between people and the ability to vote as there can possibly be.

Voting should be one of the easiest things to do, the easiest interaction you are ever going to have with your local, state or federal government (or whatever your national equivalents are...). There should be no pain or issues with registering your opinion on the ballot.


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6639 posts, RR: 24
Reply 51, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3095 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 48):
Voter fraud is a bigger problem than most people reqalize

Show some real data to back that claim up. A few random anecdotes mean nothing.

Quoting slider (Reply 48):
Every poll states that the overwhelming number of Americans support a voter ID bill

If it's overwhelmingly supported, then it should have no trouble passing.


User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4672 posts, RR: 2
Reply 52, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3079 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 40):
Overall I think the main problem is that such incidents are simply not documented, and may happen quite often.

I think they are few and far between.

The folks running these polling locations are volunteers. VOLUNTEERS. That means that they see fit to spend their time and resources to ensure American's have polling locations and a good experience voting. These folks also have a vested interest in fairness. A once off line cross might go unreported, but if there were suddently hundreds to thousands of folks doing this, there would be a lot more noise.

Also the concernted organziation that would be required in order to effectively commit voter fraud is insurmountable in most big elections . Small ones, I could see being possible, but when a lot of people are voting, there is a big problem in prediction and polling to determine where voter fraud is possible and effective to commit.

Quoting slider (Reply 48):
Voter fraud is a bigger problem than most people reqalize, especially in our big cities; the stories are plentiful of bussing to different precincts, of dead people voting, it happens frequently.

If voter fraud was that big of a deal , there would have been countless folks in jail for it.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5496 posts, RR: 14
Reply 53, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3063 times:

Quoting moo (Reply 50):
Funnily enough, I agree with you on that, but my view is the polar opposite of yours - I think that because the right to vote is sacred and hard won, there should be as few obstacles between people and the ability to vote as there can possibly be.

Yes, but if you lower the bar, it makes fraud more likely...or more to the point...easier to commit.

A government issued ID should not present an undue burden on the citizenry that is eligible to vote.

Look online at some of the states' requirements to register to vote. They're laughable. Some states allow you to register by mail.

How about this; clean up the registration process so that only citizens who are eligible to vote can register and we'll talk about identification required at the polling place.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 54, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3065 times:

Quoting moo (Reply 41):
Ahem - "papers please!"

This is a bullshit comment if you are equating what I said to Nazism.

Protecting legitimate votes against illigitimate ones is a worthy enough goal - in my opinion - to expect citizens to expend the ridiculously trivial level of effort required to establish their identity. Especially considering how much sacrifice has been made to secure that right. I don't think believing in the concept of personal responsiblity makes me a National Socialist.

Accessabilty and security of the vote are two sides of the same coin. Without ensuring the integrity of the individual's vote, what good is ease of access? Voters are entitled to both, and erring too far on the side of accessibility - though it may make us feel better about ourselves - is ultimately foolish.

Quoting moo (Reply 50):
Funnily enough, I agree with you on that, but my view is the polar opposite of yours - I think that because the right to vote is sacred and hard won, there should be as few obstacles between people and the ability to vote as there can possibly be.

"...[as few obstacles] as there can possibly be?" I disagree. There should be the minimum number of obstacles necessary to ensure that when a voter pulls the handle to register his/her vote, he/she can be confident that it will not be negated by a fraudulent vote cast in the next booth over.

Photo ID is one solution, some sort of voter token/card that you suggested is also a great idea.

[Edited 2012-04-10 09:56:39]

User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 4020 posts, RR: 4
Reply 55, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3056 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 54):
This is a bullshit comment if you are equating what I said to Nazism.

Why? I absolutely despise the idea of a centrally mandated and required government ID - I acted against it in the UK when the idea was raised recently, and I will act against it again.

And yet we in the UK don't seem to have a fundamental problem with voter fraud, despite having no requirements in place to verify yourself at the polling station - why is that?

There are so many problems with a centrally mandated ID card, its a flawed concept and we stand to lose many freedoms by allowing it to happen.


User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2739 posts, RR: 8
Reply 56, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3049 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 40):
Which is it? You say that the passport serves the function, but should be simplified, getting rid of all those pages. A passport NEEDS those pages in order to serve as a passport

It is pretty much all electronic now. I have been around the world on my last two passports and I do not have one stamp in it. No reason it cannot all become electronic. In the Military now your ID has a chip in it with all of your info that you carry with you. It can be swiped anywhere so your data can be used. But I think my point is that we can have a national ID along the lines of the Passport. It could even be simply the Photo/ID section of the passport. When you apply for the one you get a large one for international use if you require it and a smaller one for for for use in countries that do not require a stamp to prove citizenship and domestic use for voting, getting fed benefits and applying for jobs.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 37):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 34):
We already have that n the form of our passports.

Which is not free,,..Want to make it free? I am all for that!

Yes it should be free.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 37):
Required by whom exactly? The Federal Government as to violate the rights of the states? I would LOVE to hear your answer to this one.

I am all for requiring a Federal ID of some type that can be used for proving citizenship. If not then I think states should carry the voter ID law one step further to require proof of citizenship to get your state ID.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 40):
Most states provide official ID cards for $10 to $15 for those I checked. I'm sure a national one can be done for a similar amount.

Free for everyone.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 47):
Why, then, did the FEDERAL COURT decide our president in 2000?

Wrong. They did not do that.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6865 posts, RR: 34
Reply 57, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3046 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 51):
If it's overwhelmingly supported, then it should have no trouble passing.

Not if the elite oligarchs don't support it, led by a Demcoratically controlled Senate and a POTUS who won't sign it.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 51):
Show some real data to back that claim up. A few random anecdotes mean nothing.

The internet is for everyone. Try using the Google every once in a while, it's astounding!

http://www.nationalreview.com/articl...9/ghosts-voters-past-deroy-murdock

Pew has discovered that 1.8 million dead Americans are registered to vote. Perhaps worse, 2.75 million Americans are enrolled in two states each, while 68,725 are signed up in three. Indeed, Pew found, “24 million — one of every eight — active voter registrations in the United States are no longer valid or are significantly inaccurate.”
U.S. Election Assistance Commission reported in June 2009 that in North Dakota, registered voters totaled 101.6 percent of the voting-age population. In
Michigan, that figure was 101.9 percent; in Alaska, 102.2 percent; and in Maine, 103.9 percent.

http://www.timesunion.com/local/arti...ictims-in-ballot-trial-3308048.php
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...in-new-york-voter-fraud-case/print
Voter fraud convictions in Troy, NY. Another ACORN-related group.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...ead-guilty-to-attempting-to-steal/
Falsification of absentee ballots in WV.

http://www.phillyburbs.com/news/loca...sidents-cry-foul-over-ballots.html
PA Democratic voter fraud, more absentee ballot issues.

http://www.truethevote.org/resources/stories/interviews
A site dedicated just to this issue, with interviews and stories of voter fraud, etc.

In the 2010 presidential election, stories arose of absentee and military ballots being excluded. We had the infamous stories in Milwaukee of cigarette bribes for the homeless to vote.

http://www.heritage.org/research/rep...otecting-the-security-of-elections

A very thorough thesis on voter fraud, voter ID, with links, tons of references to fraudulent issues.

Wow, and that only took a couple minutes without even trying to search for any exhaustive reference on the subject. To deny it’s happening is to believe in a flat earth.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19953 posts, RR: 59
Reply 58, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3049 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 15):
Ageed, but he is trying to prove a point on two things:

And his butt needs to be in jail. Committing a crime to "prove a point" does not excuse the crime.

The 9/11 attacks were intended to "prove/make a point."


User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5496 posts, RR: 14
Reply 59, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3039 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 58):
And his butt needs to be in jail. Committing a crime to "prove a point" does not excuse the crime.


Again, where is the crime? He solicited information. The poll worker made assumptions based on the information that was requested. It's called fishing (or, for some reason, phishing). The person in the video did not act (take a ballot or sign the register) on the information received.

As a physician, I assume you do that. Well, maybe not, children may not be as susceptible to fishing.

[Edited 2012-04-10 10:44:41]


When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 60, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 3032 times:

Quoting moo (Reply 43):
You consider the US government being "responsible" these days with the power thats been granted to them?

DMCA, SOPA, ACTA, the TSA, the PATRIOT Act, "Free Speech Zones" etc etc etc

I see that you omit some key ones, like AFDC, which just goes to prove what you get when irresponsible people get to vote.

Churchill once said, "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time." (from a House of Commons speech on Nov. 11, 1947). We tend to worship the word, but democracy is not perfect by a long shot - see the irresponsible governments we have elected over the years (on whatever side. While democracy is preferable to any known alternative, we should know the pitfalls, and teach them to our children, in order to mitigate them.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 44):
Maybe because they rarely ever happen. Sorry, but if fraud was such a problem, you'd be hearing more about it.

I seem to remember the issue poping up in the 80's. Every month or so, we hear about elections in the US being stolen or attempted to be stolen - how many more happen when nobody notices?

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 44):
And the bigger question is why would anyone commit voter fraud? What gain is there?

Oh, come ON! There is massive gains to be had if "your" candidate gains power, especially when the position in question has the power to throw a lot of bones your way (SEIU, Solyndra, UAW etc).

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 44):
Unless it's done on a massive and organized scale, it's unlikely to have much impact on the election.

That's the reason for being for many of these groups, such as SEIU or ACORN - to provide boots on the ground for elections. Selective registrations, bribery and intimidation are how they work.

Take it to the next level. Let's say a group puts together bogus registrations for 50 people - picking names out of a phone book, cemetary or nursing home - in a dozen different precincts. On election day they find 50 volunteers, hire a bus, and hand out a list of names they registered, and assign a name to each volunteer. They go to the first precinct, vote, then go to the second, and vote there, and then the third. Such a setup, with a little bit of organization, can easily add several hundreds votes with 50 volunteers. Right now, in states which do not require IDs, there is nothing that prevents that sort of thing, and you'd be naive to think that it doesn't happen.

A photo ID would at least place a significant obstacle to this sort of thing. Let's all remember that many elections are decided by just a few hundred votes across entire states. If you say that fraud only accounts for 0.1% of the vote, that is still enough to swing a key state like Florida, Ohio or Minnesota.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 45):
Those who do not hold a state ID already refuse to participate in all the activities, and many more, that I listed in reply 13. Do you think they vote?

If they can get away with it, sure.

Quoting moo (Reply 46):
Rather than IDs, you may as well just issue out polling cards with a valid unique token for that election, and only allow votes to be cast when a valid card is produced.

Thats your proof of ID for that election.

How would you distribute it, by mail? Expect a lot of reports of stolen mail.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 47):
Why, then, did the FEDERAL COURT decide our president in 2000?

They didn't. The electorate did (as confirmed by endless post facto recounts). The USSC simply put a stop to 6 weeks of procrastination.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 47):
People rant and rave that it is "free" health care. But ever single American will purchase health care at a REASONABLE price. None of this $600 a month with $5000 deductable garbage.

Why would they? The penalty is far less than the cost of insurance. Evidence is growing that tens of millions will lose their employer-sponsored healthcare coverage, forcing them to choose between the penalty of $600 or so per year versus buying insurance (which will certainly be higher than $600 per year).

I'll bet you dollars to donuts that by 2016 there will be fewer people with proper health insurance under Obamacare (if it is allowed to live) then there are today. That was the result it was designed for.

[Edited 2012-04-10 10:51:15]


Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4672 posts, RR: 2
Reply 61, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3026 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 57):
Wow, and that only took a couple minutes without even trying to search for any exhaustive reference on the subject. To deny it’s happening is to believe in a flat earth.

one look at those links, and I can already see the flat earth society is in charge of the " Reference"



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5675 posts, RR: 10
Reply 62, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3027 times:

Why has no one asked the most important question: Is voter fraud, of the type that would be prevented by a presented ID (i.e. not ballot stuffing and other "behind the scenes" methods), enough of a problem to even bother with? The fact that it CAN happen is one thing, the fact that it does occasionally happen is another, but whether it impacts election results is another issue entirely.

The big question is does this type of vote fraud have any effect on election results? Are they statistically significant? Most issues have always been from behind the scenes ballot stuffing and the like. And a presented ID will do nothing to affect that. So where is it best to target your resources?

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6639 posts, RR: 24
Reply 63, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3025 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 57):
Pew has discovered that 1.8 million dead Americans are registered to vote. Perhaps worse, 2.75 million Americans are enrolled in two states each, while 68,725 are signed up in three. Indeed, Pew found, “24 million — one of every eight — active voter registrations in the United States are no longer valid or are significantly inaccurate.”
U.S. Election Assistance Commission reported in June 2009 that in North Dakota, registered voters totaled 101.6 percent of the voting-age population. In
Michigan, that figure was 101.9 percent; in Alaska, 102.2 percent; and in Maine, 103.9 percent.

And none of this would be fixed by requiring an ID. This points to a problem in the registration process and states failing to maintain their registrations rolls. This has little to do with ID fraud, but instead lazy states and bad local politicians.

Quoting slider (Reply 57):
In the 2010 presidential election, stories arose of absentee and military ballots being excluded.

First, I'm real curious what presidential election occurred in 2010? Second, note you said "stories" but not facts. I can tell you "stories" about minority voters being blocked from accessing the polls, but I doubt you would care.

Quoting slider (Reply 57):
To deny it’s happening is to believe in a flat earth.

I don't deny that fraud happens, but what I deny is that it is happening with any significance. No one has shown that this fraud has had any impact on the actual election.


Quoting slider (Reply 57):
Not if the elite oligarchs don't support it, led by a Demcoratically controlled Senate and a POTUS who won't sign it.

Well, if all these Democrats are getting elected, maybe your overwhelmingly majority isn't so overwhelming.

But why is it the Federal government's job to set ID law when the government has no power to levy a federal ID? Plus, shouldn't conservatives be repulsed by the idea of the government levying new rules/laws that overstep federal jurisdiction.


User currently onlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6612 posts, RR: 6
Reply 64, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3015 times:
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Quoting windy95 (Reply 56):
Quoting mt99 (Reply 37):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 34):
We already have that n the form of our passports.

Which is not free,,..Want to make it free? I am all for that!

Yes it should be free.

And add to the deficit?

Quoting windy95 (Reply 56):

I am all for requiring a Federal ID of some type that can be used for proving citizenship.

Please. Tea Part people wouldn't even fill out the census forms. Do you see this working?

Quoting windy95 (Reply 56):
. If not then I think states should carry the voter ID law one step further to require proof of citizenship to get your state ID.

Then its not a Federal (ie not the current adim) problem. Its would be a state issue, How come the states are not acting?

Quoting slider (Reply 57):
une 2009 that in North Dakota, registered voters totaled 101.6 percent of the voting-age population.

You mean die hard republican North Dakota? is that how the GOP won?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 60):
Thats your proof of ID for that election.

How would you distribute it, by mail? Expect a lot of reports of stolen mail.

Maybe you should force each citizen to go to an Federal Govt office to take a DNA test to get approved to vote.



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlinestarbuk7 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 599 posts, RR: 5
Reply 65, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 3008 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 64):
Tea Part people wouldn't even fill out the census forms


I would lay odds that most of the Tea Party people have ID cards.

I do not see why this is a big issue for some here. You go in to vote, present your ID card, they verify that it is you, find your name on the list, but a check mark that your identification has been verified, and you go vote.

This way, that is no one voting for someone that has passed away, no one voting for someone else, etc, etc. Not a very difficult thing to comprehend as far as I am concerned.


User currently onlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6612 posts, RR: 6
Reply 66, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3002 times:
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Quoting starbuk7 (Reply 65):
Quoting mt99 (Reply 64):
Tea Part people wouldn't even fill out the census forms


I would lay odds that most of the Tea Party people have ID cards.

That fine, but would the be OK with federally issued cards carrying information about themselves?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 67, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3006 times:

Quoting GuitrThree (Reply 30):
Why don't you move on to the more important part of this discussion about how easy it is to illegally vote, and ask yourself why the Democrats are pushing so hard to make mandatory ID during voting illegal?

I'm a Republican and I want to see ID mandatory in order to vote. Be it with a Passport or a Drivers License. Only one of those proves citizenship.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 33):
It is an identification. It is issued by the U.S. government. And yes, you have to prove that you're a citizen to obtain one.

Thank you.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 33):
But, there is no requirement that you obtain one.

There should be a requirement if the U.S. Government can get the cost down to something more reasonable.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 33):
We do not have a national ID system.

Again, yes we do. It is the passport. And like you said, it is not required. And it should be required.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 33):
We have an ID that can be used as a national ID, but is not used and can not be used as such because of certain hurdles (cost among them).

Oh, I have used my passport to travel many, many times domestically at the TSA security checkpoint. And I was let through every time. And oh, I also used my passport for my I-9 forms. And I used my passport to obtain my customs seal at F9.... Need I go on??

Quoting moo (Reply 46):
Rather than IDs, you may as well just issue out polling cards with a valid unique token for that election, and only allow votes to be cast when a valid card is produced.

They already do that, especially here in Colorado.

Quoting moo (Reply 46):
Thats your proof of ID for that election.

No, it isn't. There is no photo of you on it.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 53):
How about this; clean up the registration process so that only citizens who are eligible to vote can register and we'll talk about identification required at the polling place.

I can support that idea. It would take some time to do it, but everyone would need to re-register at their local county courthouse and prove their citizenship in person. If they cannot, then they snooze & they lose.

Quoting moo (Reply 55):
a flawed concept and we stand to lose many freedoms by allowing it to happen.

I'm just curious on what you think.... so enlighten me: What freedoms would be lost?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 58):
And his butt needs to be in jail. Committing a crime to "prove a point" does not excuse the crime.

The 9/11 attacks were intended to "prove/make a point."

Ok, Doc... you are going too far on this one, apples and oranges comparison here. This dude did not kill anyone to prove a point. The Hijackers did kill someone to prove a point.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 64):
Tea Part people wouldn't even fill out the census forms.

You know why? Because the census is a crock of crap. They count everyone, including the illegals. Therein lies the problem.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5496 posts, RR: 14
Reply 68, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 3000 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 64):
And add to the deficit?

Nope, I would just cut funding to ACORN, its ilk and its derivative organizations. Should be plenty left over for a simple ID card.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently onlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6612 posts, RR: 6
Reply 69, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2996 times:
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Quoting fr8mech (Reply 68):
Nope, I would just cut funding to ACORN, its ilk and its derivative organizations. Should be plenty left over for a simple ID card.

prove it.. thow some numbers at us.

Let see 300,000,000 Americans.. $10 per ID.. that is $30,000,000,000..

How much does ACORN get a year?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 70, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2995 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 68):
Nope, I would just cut funding to ACORN, its ilk and its derivative organizations.

I would rather disband ACORN as a whole and be done with it.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6639 posts, RR: 24
Reply 71, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2990 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 67):

I'm a Republican and I want to see ID mandatory in order to vote. Be it with a Passport or a Drivers License.

A passport only proves citizenship, it does not prove residency so fraud would still be easily possible.


User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2739 posts, RR: 8
Reply 72, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2981 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 64):
And add to the deficit?

No, I would eliminate the Dept of Education.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 64):
Please. Tea Part people wouldn't even fill out the census forms. Do you see this working?

Yes. I would fill out the census if it did not let illegals participate and stopped asking for ethnicity.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 73, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2982 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 64):
Please. Tea Part people wouldn't even fill out the census forms. Do you see this working?

The census was going into non-relevant areas.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 66):
I would lay odds that most of the Tea Party people have ID cards.

That fine, but would the be OK with federally issued cards carrying information about themselves?

Nobody from the Tea Party movement is going to object to a federally issued card that has your name, address, key info like birthdate, photo and residency status. They would object if it is to contain salary range, political affiliation, religion and such (that were on the census), then yes, you would have objections.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently onlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6612 posts, RR: 6
Reply 74, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2981 times:
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Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 73):
Nobody from the Tea Party movement is going to object to a federally issued card that has your name, address, key info like birthdate, photo and residency status. T

Ha!.. i doubt it.. Give it a shot.. let me know how it goes!



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 75, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2977 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 71):
A passport only proves citizenship, it does not prove residency so fraud would still be easily possible.

So now, we have another problem here. However, people move all the time..... I think citizenship is a priority here.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6639 posts, RR: 24
Reply 76, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2963 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 75):
However, people move all the time..... I think citizenship is a priority here.

Except that the biggest problems with fraud have been with states not removing people from voter rolls (either cause they are dead or moved) and tampering with mailed in absentee ballots. Neither of these problems is fixed with having a passport.

Illegals are less of a problem since most are afraid of going to places (like polling places) where there identity might be questioned. You'll rarely find illegals engaging in activities that don't provide them a clear and immediate financial benefit. Voter fraud doesn't provide them any near-term benefits and it's questionable if it would even provide them a long-term benefit.

You want to stop voter fraud. It's real easy. Tell the states/municipalities to properly manage their registration rolls. There's no excuse for millions of dead people to sit on the registration rolls for years on end because states are too lazy/incompetent to manage their rolls.


User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5675 posts, RR: 10
Reply 77, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2960 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 67):
You know why? Because the census is a crock of crap. They count everyone, including the illegals. Therein lies the problem.

The Census' purpose is to count everyone. Period. The fact that illegals get counted is part of that process and is basically unavoidable. If it is not, how do you propose to avoid counting them? Ask them? Yeah that will for sure. Ask for ID? Yeah the Tea Party types would love that even more.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 72):
Yes. I would fill out the census if it did not let illegals participate and stopped asking for ethnicity.

As I asked above, how do you screen out people that are illegally in the country? And make no mistake, I support enforcement efforts to reduce and end the permanent population of illegals residing in our country nor do I think we should grant amnesty or any advantage to them becoming a citizen faster than those that respect our laws and follow the proper process.

But my question stands: Why do you want to waste the $3+ odd billion (a number thrown out by someone above) to do something that adds no value to the process? Why waste that money? Voter fraud where an ID would make any difference is not a problem that impacts our elections. And before you tell me to "prove it", I want you to prove it before you go and waste my (and everybody's) tax money on it.

Tugg

[Edited 2012-04-10 13:43:08]


I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 78, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2951 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 77):
The Census' purpose is to count everyone. Period. The fact that illegals get counted is part of that process and is basically unavoidable.

Counting the illegals defeats the purpose of having a Census.

Quoting tugger (Reply 77):
If it is not, how do you propose to avoid counting them?

Simple: Do away with the Census. I think it is silly.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6639 posts, RR: 24
Reply 79, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2948 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 78):
Simple: Do away with the Census. I think it is silly.

Could create quite a problem for the House of Representatives which is population based. How will you know how many Congressmen each state should get? Not to mention, you'll have to amend the Constitution.


User currently onlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6612 posts, RR: 6
Reply 80, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2950 times:
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Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 78):

Simple: Do away with the Census. I think it is silly.

And go against the Constitution?!!



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 81, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2951 times:

Besides getting federal money for the local schools based on population, what else does the Census purpose serve?

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 79):
Could create quite a problem for the House of Representatives which is population based.

I had no idea that this is also what it was used for.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5675 posts, RR: 10
Reply 82, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 2949 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 81):
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 79):
Could create quite a problem for the House of Representatives which is population based.

I had no idea that this is also what it was used for.

Actually this is it's one true primary purpose:

Quote:
Article 1, Clause 3:
Apportionment of Representatives and taxes

Representatives and direct Taxes shall be apportioned among the several States which may be included within this Union, according to their respective Numbers, which shall be determined by adding to the whole Number of free Persons, including those bound to Service for a Term of Years, and excluding Indians not taxed, three fifths of all other Persons. The actual Enumeration shall be made within three Years after the first Meeting of the Congress of the United States, and within every subsequent Term of ten Years, in such Manner as they shall by Law direct. The number of Representatives shall not exceed one for every thirty Thousand, but each State shall have at Least one Representative;

Tugg

[Edited 2012-04-10 13:22:56]


I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5496 posts, RR: 14
Reply 83, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 2927 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 69):
Let see 300,000,000 Americans.. $10 per ID.. that is $30,000,000,000..


Of course, my statement was tongue in cheek. Did you get thrown off by the lack of a   ?

My point is that we waste money in so many stupid places, that money could easily be found to fund a voter registration identification system.

By the way, near as I can tell, the voter population is about 210,000,000. But, I don't think that accounts for ineligible folks like felons.

http://www.census.gov/hhes/www/socde...lications/p20/2010/Table1_2010.xls

Quoting tugger (Reply 77):
Why do you want to waste the $3+ odd billion (a number thrown out by someone above) to do something that adds no value to the process? Why waste that money? Voter fraud where an ID would make any difference is not a problem that impacts our elections. And before you tell me to "prove it", I want you to prove it before you go and waste my (and everybody's) tax money on it.


Tugg, there are some things that have to be done on principle. We have a free election system. The potential for fraud, both at registration and at the box, is very real.

Once the system appears to have been undermined, you can consider it undermined. This is a case where perception is reality. If enough people think there is widespread fraud, then there may as well be.

It's actually a common tactic of the Left. Make The People think that something is happening and they will demand that something happen.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6639 posts, RR: 24
Reply 84, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2908 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 83):
Tugg, there are some things that have to be done on principle. We have a free election system. The potential for fraud, both at registration and at the box, is very real.

The potential for fraud in most things exists, yet conservatives seem loathe to have the federal government get involved.

The banking/finance industry is rife with fraud, but conservatives have fought against regulating the industry. The defense contracting industry has been plagued with fraud, but conservatives just want to throw more money at it. Many state governments are plagued with bribery and fraud and conservatives want to give those states more money and power.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 83):
If enough people think there is widespread fraud, then there may as well be.

Maybe so, but other than a few people on the very far right, I don't know many who are that worried about voter fraud. I've never seen a poll where voter fraud ranks as a big concern. I also note that conservative concern about voter fraud tends to be driven largely by if their chose candidates are winning or losing. In 2000/2004, conservatives could have cared less about fraud, but magically they became worried in 2008. Gee, what a coincidence?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 83):
My point is that we waste money in so many stupid places, that money could easily be found to fund a voter registration identification system.

But why spend the money at all? Shouldn't we give it back to the taxpayers or pay down our debt instead?


User currently offlinehomsaR From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1189 posts, RR: 0
Reply 85, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2902 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 62):
Why has no one asked the most important question: Is voter fraud, of the type that would be prevented by a presented ID (i.e. not ballot stuffing and other "behind the scenes" methods), enough of a problem to even bother with?

I guess this just goes to prove that nobody reads my posts.

Quoting homsaR (Reply 20):
Is this an actual problem, or are we imagining that it is a problem?

Whether or not someone can go into an election office and pretend to be someone else, and the actual evidence that people are doing so are two different things.

I've heard plenty of claim that there is this "voter fraud" problem, but not much in the way of actual statistics indicating how much it happens.
Quoting homsaR (Reply 38):
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 23):
There is a long history of voter and election fraud in the USA. From 'getting the dead vote', disposing of ballots of the opposition party, bribing drunks, using confusing ballot layouts, someone filling out an absentee ballot for a relative or claiming to be one, altering the collection of votes (even easier in new model computer/digital voting machines), there are many ways over the years voter fraud has occurred. Most states have strict laws that at least reduce that risk. One major problem for the USA is that we don't have a National ID card or citizen registration (unless one is a naturalized citizen)

You bring up a lot of points, but only one that I can see ("getting the dead to vote," which happened a long time ago, no indication it is still a real problem today) could be resolved with an ID requirement. The other issues, particularly when it comes to ballot layouts (which had demonstrable impacts on voting and election results 12 years ago), or how computers with no paper trail count votes, would not be resolved by IDs, and those have actually happened.

But yeah, thus far nobody has actually provided any data that shows how many people are actually voting illegally at the polls. The only thing we have are anecdotes, and some numbers that show that maintenance of the voter registration rolls is flawed.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 81):
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 79):
Could create quite a problem for the House of Representatives which is population based.

I had no idea that this is also what it was used for.

Wow. Just, wow.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 39):

Call me an elitist, but if you don't have your personal affairs in sufficient order to secure a state-issued picture ID card I'm not sure you are ready to participate in the political workings of a republic. With rights come certain responsiblities - I think establishing who you are in fact is a reasonable requirement to place on those who want a say in the future of the country!
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 42):
Smitty is right - with power (to participate in the direction of the country) comes responsibility.

Then why stop at requiring an ID? Why not require that people actually be informed about the issues and people before them on the ballot before allowing them to cast a vote?

People who don't want to vote for Obama "because he's a Muslim" should be shown the door and have their voting registration revoked. (Note: I'm just using that as an example. I'm not saying people should have to vote for him, but if their reason for voting for or against a certain person or ballot measure is based on an absolute and easily disprovable falsehood, and they can't be bothered to spend 30 seconds looking up basic facts, then maybe they shouldn't be allowed to cast a vote that impacts national, state, or local direction and policies for years to come).

If people really don't know how their own government functions, should they be allowed to vote in an election?

I mean, if we're going to talk about "responsibility" being necessary to vote, then what's more important? Being responsible enough to have an ID, or being responsible enough to know how the vote you cast will have an impact on you and those around you for years to come?

That's all rhetorical, of course.

Overall, it seems like those on the right like to make big deals out of little issues to distract people from actual issues. Hence this move to fix "voter fraud."

An interesting note from this article:
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...r-on-voting-20110830#ixzz1r5HSfVEp

Quote:
A major probe by the Justice Department between 2002 and 2007 failed to prosecute a single person for going to the polls and impersonating an eligible voter, which the anti-fraud laws are supposedly designed to stop. Out of the 300 million votes cast in that period, federal prosecutors convicted only 86 people for voter fraud – and many of the cases involved immigrants and former felons who were simply unaware of their ineligibility. A much-hyped investigation in Wisconsin, meanwhile, led to the prosecution of only .0007 percent of the local electorate for alleged voter fraud.

Again. I'm still not convinced there's a problem here.



I was raised by a cup of coffee.
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 86, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2888 times:

Quoting homsaR (Reply 85):
Wow. Just, wow.

Keep saying that... "Wow".   

I honestly had NO idea that is what the Census was used for. All I knew was 1) I was required by federal law to fill one out and 2) The purpose was to help local school districts get money.**

All in all, I learned something on this thread. You could have been a bit nicer, homsaR. WTH?!

**Edit add: Filling out the Census is every 10 years.

[Edited 2012-04-10 17:50:51]


A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13140 posts, RR: 15
Reply 87, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2867 times:

One real problem with voter fraud is when you have a very close election, especially on the municipal level. In my town with about 5000 registered voters and typically about 50 to 75% participation, I have seen maybe 6 to 10 votes be the difference of one candidate winning and one losing. It is not improbable that many votes, and probably a few more, were fraudulently done leading to a distorted vote count. Even for Federal office, a few 100 votes can make the difference in a Congressional or US Senate race and you can easily have that many fraudlent votes in a district or state.

Most of the USA's voting system is built on trust and honesty but with any other huge system, there is huge opportunities for error, for fraud and abuse. Any relatively small flaws can have significant implications, from a small town council seat to even a Presidential election as we saw in Florida in 2000.

Perhaps we need some regular system of registration renewal or acknowledgement process to make sure if someone moves, dies, becomes unable to vote, or otherwise unqualified, their registration isn't used. Require some better training of poll workers to spot fraud other requiring strict ID. We could go back to the old days when states used to issue voter registration cards issued to your home address when you register and could be asked to show to vote or you had to register with showing your identity papers in person, like to get a drivers license or a passport, to a designated municipal or county official.


User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 88, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2832 times:

Quoting moo (Reply 55):
There are so many problems with a centrally mandated ID card, its a flawed concept and we stand to lose many freedoms by allowing it to happen.

I'll admit that I'm not up to speed on the problems that you are alluding to with respect to ID, but if you are telling me that your concern is that an ID requirement itself erodes essential liberties, then I can understand and respect that.

The line of thinking to which I object is the "pity party" that is often thrown on behalf of these hypothetical huddling masses of unfortunates who can't somehow obtain a photo ID...that we are creating unreasonable barriers to their ability to exercise their rights. Which I believe is a fiction on one hand and 'enabling' poor citizenship on the other.


User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5496 posts, RR: 14
Reply 89, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2821 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 84):
The potential for fraud in most things exists, yet conservatives seem loathe to have the federal government get involved

I guess I'm looking at this differently.

My take on it is that the institution of voting must remain 'pure', for lack of a better term. We, as a people, should do everything we can to ensure that, there not only is no fraud, but everything we can to prevent fraud (within consitituional boundaries) should be done.

Is there fraud? Yes. Is it wide spread? Probably not. But any fraud undermines the institution.

Why do you think there is so much regulation in the banking sector? Do you really think, as a percentage of funds/customers/transactions that there is wide spread fraud? No, there isn't. But any indication of fraud undermines the system. Therefore, we regulate it to the umpteeth level so that we project a trustworthy institution.

Some things we have to spend money on. This is one of those things.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 4025 posts, RR: 28
Reply 90, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2820 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 73):
The census was going into non-relevant areas.

I did not fill out a census form even though I am a legal (temporary) resident of the U.S. because I opened the form and quickly realized 90% of the questions were about race.



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently onlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6612 posts, RR: 6
Reply 91, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2798 times:
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Quoting Pyrex (Reply 90):
I did not fill out a census form even though I am a legal (temporary) resident of the U.S. because I opened the form and quickly realized 90% of the questions were about race.

90%- really can you prove this?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5675 posts, RR: 10
Reply 92, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2769 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 83):
Tugg, there are some things that have to be done on principle. We have a free election system. The potential for fraud, both at registration and at the box, is very real.

Once the system appears to have been undermined, you can consider it undermined. This is a case where perception is reality. If enough people think there is widespread fraud, then there may as well be.

While I do not believe that there is any true perception or belief that there is any significant voter fraud going on in the USA, I do understand that we need to keep voting safe and secure and open. That is why I do not agree with the drive to make voting electronic and I also dislike the growing use of absentee-style ballots for everyone (though I know many people here prefer it and think its great). Both are additional pathways for voter fraud. I say keep it simple and make it as transparent as possible.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 83):
It's actually a common tactic of the Left. Make The People think that something is happening and they will demand that something happen.

Isn't that also a "common tactic" of the Right as well? Neither "side" is innocent of using this as a tool to get people to demand something. It is a fear tool: "If we don't do this, [x] will happen", so people run screaming that something must be done!

Quoting homsaR (Reply 85):
I guess this just goes to prove that nobody reads my posts.

Sorry HomsaR, my bad on that. You did ask the question and re-raised it, people just kept ignoring it.


Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 88):
I'll admit that I'm not up to speed on the problems that you are alluding to with respect to ID, but if you are telling me that your concern is that an ID requirement itself erodes essential liberties, then I can understand and respect that.

The line of thinking to which I object is the "pity party" that is often thrown on behalf of these hypothetical huddling masses of unfortunates who can't somehow obtain a photo ID...that we are creating unreasonable barriers to their ability to exercise their rights.

  
While I don't really support or see the need for an ID requirement for voting (though I fully support an ID requirement for registering to vote, which if I am not mistaken is already a requirement), I don't understand the argument that people couldn't get an ID.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 91):
Quoting Pyrex (Reply 90):
I did not fill out a census form even though I am a legal (temporary) resident of the U.S. because I opened the form and quickly realized 90% of the questions were about race.

90%- really can you prove this?

There are/were two questions relating to race/ethnicity:
http://2010.census.gov/2010census/about/interactive-form.php
(The actual form can be found here: http://www.census.gov/schools/pdf/2010form_info.pdf )

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently onlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6612 posts, RR: 6
Reply 93, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2768 times:
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Quoting tugger (Reply 92):

Quoting mt99 (Reply 91):
Quoting Pyrex (Reply 90):
I did not fill out a census form even though I am a legal (temporary) resident of the U.S. because I opened the form and quickly realized 90% of the questions were about race.

90%- really can you prove this?

There are/were two questions relating to race/ethnicity:

So Pyrex,, the census form you got had 2.2222 Questions?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5496 posts, RR: 14
Reply 94, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2757 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 92):
do understand that we need to keep voting safe and secure and open. That is why I do not agree with the drive to make voting electronic and I also dislike the growing use of absentee-style ballots for everyone (though I know many people here prefer it and think its great).

Don't get me started on electronic voting with no paper trail. I'm basically OK with absentee ballots, so long as you present yourself to the polling authority (county clerk, in most cases, I guess) and provide a valid reason with proof as to why you can't exercise your constitutional right and duty at the appointed time.

I'm also a bit squirrelly on the early voting thing.

Quoting tugger (Reply 92):
Isn't that also a "common tactic" of the Right as well?

Oh yes, but the Left has it down to a science.

Quoting tugger (Reply 92):
though I fully support an ID requirement for registering to vote, which if I am not mistaken is already a requirement),

It is not. At least not in the jurisdictions I've lived in (TX, NY, KY). It probably varies from state to state.

I think that voter fraud prevention has to start at registration and carried through at the polling place. Prevention during registration prevents the ineligible (felons, non-citizens, kids, the dead, etc.) from registering to vote. ID checks at the poll prevent someone impersonating a registered voter.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5675 posts, RR: 10
Reply 95, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2755 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 94):
Don't get me started on electronic voting with no paper trail. I'm basically OK with absentee ballots, so long as you present yourself to the polling authority (county clerk, in most cases, I guess) and provide a valid reason with proof as to why you can't exercise your constitutional right and duty at the appointed time.

I'm also a bit squirrelly on the early voting thing.

  
A paper trail and open, public voting (as open and public as reasonable) are important. Mail-in ballots/abusing absentee ballots are just not what real voting is about and a box with a bunch of paper ballots is a hell of a lot cheaper, simpler, and more difficult to fake and tamper with than any of these stupid electronic systems we are seeing pop up. What an enormous waste of money (If you have a problem with "hanging chads" then do don't use them as your paper ballot, do something where you mark an "x" instead).

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 94):
It is not. At least not in the jurisdictions I've lived in (TX, NY, KY). It probably varies from state to state.

I think that voter fraud prevention has to start at registration and carried through at the polling place. Prevention during registration prevents the ineligible (felons, non-citizens, kids, the dead, etc.) from registering to vote. ID checks at the poll prevent someone impersonating a registered voter.

I do believe that for registering to vote you should have to prove that you are a citizen and resident of the district/city/county/state you live in. That is not an undue burden nor very intrusive.
I know in California you can register while you are getting your drivers license (and that raised a stink when that was implemented) so I assumed ID was essentially required, perhaps I am making an assumption that is not wholly true.

At the polling location level, I still just don't see the need. Of course it would impact me at all I just don't see the need and don't like the idea of "one more government intrusion" if it is not absolutely necessary.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 96, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2746 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 94):

I think that voter fraud prevention has to start at registration and carried through at the polling place.

And there is the big problem.

Let's recall my earlier example:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 60):
Let's say a group puts together bogus registrations for 50 people - picking names out of a phone book, cemetary or nursing home - in a dozen different precincts. On election day they find 50 volunteers, hire a bus, and hand out a list of names they registered, and assign a name to each volunteer. They go to the first precinct, vote, then go to the second, and vote there, and then the third. Such a setup, with a little bit of organization, can easily add several hundreds votes with 50 volunteers.

In states that require no ID, and if the fraudsters exercise a little caution not to raise flags (don't use the names of people who probably will turn up and vote), there is no reason why such an exercise can't work quite well, and nobody will notice anything. There is no way of tracking how much of this has gone on, but I'll bet anyone that such fraud has happened, and on a pretty large scale.

It's a glaring and obvious flaw in our election system, and I will go ahead and go on record that anyone who is opposed to requiring ID at the voting booth is either 1) Dumb as a brick (you'd have to be to believe that ID is somehow a hardship), or 2) knows very well that this is a means for fraudulant means to swing elections - and for too many people, the end justifies the means.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5675 posts, RR: 10
Reply 97, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2741 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 96):
Let's recall my earlier example:
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 96):
but I'll bet anyone that such fraud has happened, and on a pretty large scale.

But is it a real problem? At all? It has been investigated, thoroughly, by various agencies under various administrations and has not been found to be a real problem. I cannot understand why you do not accept the investigations. Is it a conspiracy?

The only one that I can recall was the voter fraud that occurred in the 50's/60's that supposedly helped get JFK elected.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...ntial_election,_1960#Controversies
The man on the grassy knoll was probably connected with it all.

Quoting homsaR (Reply 85):
An interesting note from this article:
http://www.rollingstone.com/politics...r-on-voting-20110830#ixzz1r5HSfVEp

Quote:
A major probe by the Justice Department between 2002 and 2007 failed to prosecute a single person for going to the polls and impersonating an eligible voter, which the anti-fraud laws are supposedly designed to stop. Out of the 300 million votes cast in that period, federal prosecutors convicted only 86 people for voter fraud – and many of the cases involved immigrants and former felons who were simply unaware of their ineligibility. A much-hyped investigation in Wisconsin, meanwhile, led to the prosecution of only .0007 percent of the local electorate for alleged voter fraud.

Again. I'm still not convinced there's a problem here.

.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 96):
It's a glaring and obvious flaw in our election system, and I will go ahead and go on record that anyone who is opposed to requiring ID at the voting booth is either 1) Dumb as a brick (you'd have to be to believe that ID is somehow a hardship), or 2) knows very well that this is a means for fraudulant means to swing elections - and for too many people, the end justifies the means.

And it means that you like to introduce new government intrusion and regulations into the basic actions of American life that are not demonstrated to be needed or cost effective. If there is a problem then yes let's address it but there just isn't.

This is fear mongering, playing on people's fears, plain and simple. How many other things can we point to and say: "Oh look, someday there could be a problem there! We need the government to step in and fix it!"

Tugg

[Edited 2012-04-11 12:26:08]


I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 98, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2734 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 91):
Quoting Pyrex (Reply 90):
I did not fill out a census form even though I am a legal (temporary) resident of the U.S. because I opened the form and quickly realized 90% of the questions were about race.

90%- really can you prove this?

A representative sample Census form can be found here: http://www.census.gov/dmd/www/pdf/d61a.pdf

What amazes me about the 'race' questions (7 and 8) is that if you are Asian they care about the difference between Chinese/Japanese/Korean/Vietnamese/Filipino etc., but if you are of European descent you just put "White". I was looking for a "Hibernian/British Islander" category but there was none. I almost wrote it in under "other". LOL

It just seems like arbitrary and haphazard data collection with a fixation on Asian/Pacific Islander people.

Sorry to go off topic, just had to share that since I felt the same way as Pyrex when I opened my form.


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8329 posts, RR: 9
Reply 99, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2724 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
An administrative fee of $10-20 is perfectly reasonable.

Until you get it related to the right to vote - then it gets to be a Poll Tax, which has been shot down by the USSC.

The sad reality is that the $10 or $20 that is trivial for you (and me) is far from trivial for a lot of people. So you are, for many, saying that they can vote if they give up food for a day. Impressive.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 6):
Those do not prove citizenship. Do you want illegals voting?

At some point we need to get realistic on the costs involved. What is the cost burden that politicians are so willing to dump on Americans. And what is the added costs to the government organizations involved in the administration of this new law? I guess a Billion here and a Billion there is unimportant. Especially since voter fraud is such a major issue.  
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 7):
Fraud is fraud.

But there is a huge difference between some yahoo with an ego voting for Holder and, say, Madoff. I'm not concerned about a handful of people playing games to make it "look" like there is widespread voter fraud.

The situation these days is focused on the fear some white folks have on the shift in majorities we are moving towards. Whites are rapidly becoming a minority and some feel that everything possible needs to be done to "protect the whites".

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 7):
Then a voter should be required to provide an ID to vote. A driver's license or non-driver ID should suffice since in order to register, the person in question would have had to prove citizenship.

At what cost? Are you willing to have taxes cover the costs associated with ensuring that changes to the voting laws do not block anyone rom exercising their right to vote?



How much proof is really needed for some places? If someone is white, speaks English with the local accent, has a Drivers License and goes in to register my bet is that they will be able to register without a birth certificate. Regardless of their citizenship. I also doubt that someone who fits that bill, but is not a US Citizen, would go to that much effort to get their voter's card. Reality is that their "illegal vote" would be like pissing in the ocean - it's not going to have a huge impact.

But Billions paid on the program for a handful of folks trying to pollute the ocean.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 15):
In this rough economy, I am not.

The harsh reality is that public health care costs continue in bad times as well as good. The ER's around the country continue to be used as the "Family Doctor", accidents rapidly change lives (both medically and financially) and diagnoses of major (and expensive) medical conditions continue.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 15):
If one is required to have health insurance, then the government will not stop at requiring citizens to have other items

So you don't want insurance, and we are required to pay for you if you're in an accident, or get a cancer diagnosis? With the explosion of costs a Dx of, say, acute leukemia can top $500K in costs. And you sound like you want us to pick up your costs because you don't want to pay for insurance.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 39):
I'm not sure you are ready to participate in the political workings of a republic.

Sounds like the literacy tests that a was used in the South to keep blacks from voting. These days it is the white conservative looking to obstruct "others" from voting.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 23):
Most persons of color believe strict voter ID requirements at the polling place is a throwback to those evil days and won't tolerate it.

Obstructing citizens from voting is a throwback to the Bad Old Days.

Only white conservatives benefit from that obstruction.

Quoting moo (Reply 36):
Is it a problem of such magnitude that spending billions of dollars solving is worth the outcome?

For those afraid of a multi-racial voter block gaining a majority it would be.

Quoting moo (Reply 36):
You are going to have to ensure that anything you enact will not prevent legitimate voters from voting

Not going to happen. The OBJECTIVE of these new laws is to be an obstruction for "those people" voting.


User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5496 posts, RR: 14
Reply 100, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2707 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 99):

Not going to happen. The OBJECTIVE of these new laws is to be an obstruction for "those people" voting.


The only people I, and every other Conservative/Republican, want to prevent from voting are those who are ineligible to vote. It's really that simple.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 99):
At what cost? Are you willing to have taxes cover the costs associated with ensuring that changes to the voting laws do not block anyone rom exercising their right to vote?


As I've stated before...yes. I believe this is a valid use of tax money. It protects the integrity of our electoral system. I see that as no different than protecting our borders.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 99):
If someone is white, speaks English with the local accent, has a Drivers License and goes in to register my bet is that they will be able to register without a birth certificate.


Let's see: I'm white. I've been here since I was 2 months old. When I turned 18 I had a 'local' (that would be Bensonhurst with a touch of Coney Island) accent. Now, I was naturalized at 7. But, if I wasn't, I would have still been able to register at 18 because there was NO requirement that I provide one shred of proof that I was a citizen of the United States. That, my friend, is WRONG.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 99):
Whites are rapidly becoming a minority and some feel that everything possible needs to be done to "protect the whites".
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 99):
Only white conservatives benefit from that obstruction.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 99):
For those afraid of a multi-racial voter block gaining a majority it would be.


Oh, I know this will get deleted or get me banned, but:
How does it feel to be a racist? I mean, you clearly hate whites. It shows in this thread and others. Or is it more sinister? Do you feel that 'the others' need your help to get to a better place. 'They' can't do it on their own?

We should ensure citizenship at registration and identity at the poll. Whether there is wide spread fraud, sporadic fraud or no fraud at all. In this day and age, with the technology available to us, there should never be a case where someone votes who is not supposed to. It is those on the Left that want non-eligible folks to vote...whether those folks be white, black, green or blue....they are all welcome to vote for the Left.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5675 posts, RR: 10
Reply 101, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2706 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 100):
It is those on the Left that want non-eligible folks to vote...

Fr8mech, look I do agree with quite a bit of what you have been saying (not all obviously) but that is a totally ridiculous statement and puts in with what you are arguing the Ken777 shouldn't be doing either. I say this with respect.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlinehomsaR From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1189 posts, RR: 0
Reply 102, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2688 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 100):
there should never be a case where someone votes who is not supposed to.

But it's simply not happening.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 100):
It is those on the Left that want non-eligible folks to vote

That is absolutely, blatantly untrue.

What folks on the left really want to avoid is voter suppression, in which eligible voters are harrassed or discouraged from voting, or flat-out prevented from voting. It is a much bigger issue than this mythical "voter fraud," and, in fact, still to this day happens all the time.

This very real problem is something the folks on the right never want to address (probably because they're the ones doing it), while inventing fake problems like "voter fraud" to scare people into a frenzy over nothing.



I was raised by a cup of coffee.
User currently offlinevin2basketball From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 318 posts, RR: 0
Reply 103, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 2674 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 26):
They're asking for the license because you're driving a car, and they want to make sure you're qualified to do so. That the license doubles as an ID is incidental - even if it didn't double as an ID, they'd want to see it (such as when you go to the FAA to take a flight check - they want to see your certificate, but only to establish your qualifications, since it doesn't have a photo - they'll also want to see some form of photo ID to establish your identity). The police can't mandate you show them a particular document in order to identify yourself. They can create standards (such as something with a photo), but they can't insist solely on a passport, or solely on a driver's license, etc.

And voter ID's would be the government saying, you're showing up to vote, "and they want to make sure you're qualified to do so."

Quoting mt99 (Reply 69):

prove it.. thow some numbers at us.

Let see 300,000,000 Americans.. $10 per ID.. that is $30,000,000,000..

How much does ACORN get a year?


True voting age population of the US, between 210 and 220 million, of which roughly 115 million already have passports (according to the State Department), that leaves about 100 million people, then subtract out those people who have access to a birth certificate, and you're realistically looking at 30-40 million ppl. Now for these people, even $30 IDs would only cost $1.2 billion at the most (it's essentially a one-time cost), and $10 IDs would be only $300-400 million.

also, slight correction to your math. If we were to ID the entire US population of 300 million people at $10 per ID, then the cost would be $3 billion, not $30 billion as you quoted.

Quoting homsaR (Reply 85):
People who don't want to vote for Obama "because he's a Muslim" should be shown the door and have their voting registration revoked. (Note: I'm just using that as an example. I'm not saying people should have to vote for him, but if their reason for voting for or against a certain person or ballot measure is based on an absolute and easily disprovable falsehood, and they can't be bothered to spend 30 seconds looking up basic facts, then maybe they shouldn't be allowed to cast a vote that impacts national, state, or local direction and policies for years to come).

If that's a valid complaint, then people who don't have the faintest idea about basic economics (read a good chunk of the Democratic party base) should be barred as well. If these people can't take the time to spend an hour reading up on basic Macro, then maybe they shouldn't be allowed to cast a vote that impacts national, state, or local economic policies for years to come...

*Please note, I am not advocating in any way that it should happen, just trying to illustrate the absurdity of that claim, which goes against our very fiber as a nation.


User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4672 posts, RR: 2
Reply 104, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2646 times:

Quoting vin2basketball (Reply 103):
read a good chunk of the Democratic party base

Laughable atatement when most of the republican base only cares about guns and abortion, and have the lowest average IQ.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently onlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6612 posts, RR: 6
Reply 105, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2636 times:
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Quoting vin2basketball (Reply 103):
then subtract out those people who have access to a birth certificate

As pointed out before - birth certificates do not have photos. So add them back into your count,

Quoting vin2basketball (Reply 103):
If we were to ID the entire US population of 300 million people at $10 per ID, then the cost would be $3 billion, not $30 billion as you quoted.

Good catch. sorry!.

Quoting vin2basketball (Reply 103):
would only cost $1.2 billion at the most (it's essentially a one-time cost)

So you wouldn't give ID to new voters?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 106, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2638 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 104):

Laughable atatement when most of the republican base only cares about guns and abortion, and have the lowest average IQ.

During the 30's, prestigious German universities and scientific groups were used to send out very scientific-looking and serious research proving that the Jewish race were mentally/morally deficient in various ways. That sort of thing has been going on for ages.

All I can say is that I look around at the people I know, and it seems to me that generally the successful management-level or self-employed people I know tend to be GOP, and those who are low down on the education scale (administrators, secretaries, etc) and young, well educated people straight out of college tend to be Democrats (fresh out of Indoctrination U, I suppose - they start changing after a few years). And then of course you have the special interest groups that tend to be Dems. That's my observation.

I'm just saying that those "studies" that come out are as loaded and bogus as anything that came out of the Propaganda arms of the Soviet Union or Nazi Germany. Look around for yourself, and make up your own mind.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4672 posts, RR: 2
Reply 107, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 2635 times:

[quote=Dreadnought,reply=106]quote]


My statement was only done to show how absurd the previous one was.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6865 posts, RR: 34
Reply 108, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2629 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 99):
Until you get it related to the right to vote - then it gets to be a Poll Tax, which has been shot down by the USSC.

The sad reality is that the $10 or $20 that is trivial for you (and me) is far from trivial for a lot of people. So you are, for many, saying that they can vote if they give up food for a day. Impressive

Ken, every measure for voter ID that I've read has included a free ID if requested and even HAND-DELIVERED in some states. This is a red herring. There's no poll tax implication in any of the voter ID bills that have come along, and the ID issue has also been addressed.

Quoting homsaR (Reply 102):
That is absolutely, blatantly untrue.

What folks on the left really want to avoid is voter suppression, in which eligible voters are harrassed or discouraged from voting, or flat-out prevented from voting. It is a much bigger issue than this mythical "voter fraud," and, in fact, still to this day happens all the time.

Kinda like the Black Panthers?

Yeah, Holder passed on prosecuting that one.


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 109, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2603 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 90):
I did not fill out a census form even though I am a legal (temporary) resident of the U.S.

You broke the law. You are required by law to fill one out!

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 90):
because I opened the form and quickly realized 90% of the questions were about race.

This just goes to show that you are ignorant then. Because when I filled mine out in 2010, I never got that vibe.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 91):
90%- really can you prove this?

Trust me, he can't. He did not want fill it out, maybe got lazy. It takes 5 minutes. 5 minutes out of his day to fill it out. Big deal.

Quoting tugger (Reply 92):
There are/were two questions relating to race/ethnicity:

  

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 94):
provide a valid reason with proof as to why you can't exercise your constitutional right and duty at the appointed time.

I think this has been discussed in the past. People don't simply have the time to go in an vote on a Tuesday. People have lives. Some people have 3 kids they have to deal with and don't have the time to go vote. This is one of the many reasons why voter turn out has been low. Doing elections on a Tuesday is an inconvenience for a LOT of people.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 99):
So you don't want insurance, and we are required to pay for you if you're in an accident, or get a cancer diagnosis?

Uhhhh.... Ken.... I never said I did not want insurance. Show me where I said I did not want it. You can't becuase I did not say that. What I said was that I do NOT WANT IT MANDATED. I should not be required by the government to purchase health insurance. If the government wants to mandate health insurance, and they are successful, just see quick this puts many, many Americans into bankruptcy..... $1K for every month a citizen does not have health insurance...that racks up pretty quick!

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 99):
And you sound like you want us to pick up your costs because you don't want to pay for insurance.

Again, I did not say I did not want insurance. Got it??

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 100):
The only people I, and every other Conservative/Republican, want to prevent from voting are those who are ineligible to vote. It's really that simple.

I am with you on that 100%!!!!



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5496 posts, RR: 14
Reply 110, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 18 hours ago) and read 2582 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 109):
I think this has been discussed in the past. People don't simply have the time to go in an vote on a Tuesday. People have lives. Some people have 3 kids they have to deal with and don't have the time to go vote. This is one of the many reasons why voter turn out has been low. Doing elections on a Tuesday is an inconvenience for a LOT of people.

I agree, the 1st Tuesday after the 1st Monday in November is a throwback to the 18th Century.

But, polls are open 12+ hours. They are spread all over the place (at least where I have lived). And, you know what? If you give a crap...you'll find a way to vote on the appointed day.

Absentee ballots need to be for those who can prove they will be out of their polling district on the day in question. To open it up to anyone who doesn't (or thinks they can't) make it to the polls just opens it open to fraud.

Now, don't get me wrong, I would absolutely support a move to get the date of elections changed to a weekend.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 111, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 2561 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 110):
Now, don't get me wrong, I would absolutely support a move to get the date of elections changed to a weekend.

Hear! Hear! I don't understand why that is so difficult to do. It gets everyone a chance to vote and eliminates the need for mail-in ballots thus making elections cheaper. I don't see a big of a deal moving them to a Saturday or a Sunday when no one is working. I can see the voter turn out improving.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 110):
1st Tuesday after the 1st Monday in November is a throwback to the 18th Century.

I agree. We don't operate like that anymore.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8329 posts, RR: 9
Reply 112, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 2556 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 100):
The only people I, and every other Conservative/Republican, want to prevent from voting are those who are ineligible to vote.

Which is why the conservatives are also CLOSING the voting window - reducing the ability for many to vote.

Cutting back on opportunities to vote is simply another obstruction to vote.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 100):
It protects the integrity of our electoral system.

The shams associated with the voting process carried out by those responsible for managing the process are a far greater danger to the integrity of the system than a handful of voters who might (or might not) be eligible to vote.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 100):
I would have still been able to register at 18 because there was NO requirement that I provide one shred of proof that I was a citizen of the United States.

If you had not been naturalized and went in and illegally registered your vote would have been a drop in the ocean. To be blunt, it is better that we ensure all citizens have the ability to vote than it is to obstruct them in any way. If that means a handful of nonresidents get to vote then that is a pretty small price to pay.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 100):
I mean, you clearly hate whites.

Not really. Especially since I'm white.

What I do hate is the discrimination I see, like in the efforts to obstruct non-whites in the voting process.

Basically I see no reason for the conservatives to fear Americans who aren't white. The efforts to push Americans down is a far greater risk to the country than someone who doesn't have their government card at the voting place.

But then the US is moving to a point where white people will not be the majority and I guess that scares the right wing.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 100):
How does it feel to be a racist?

Let's see. I'm white and have a pretty clear position that non-white Americans should be allowed to vote without the NEW obstructions that the Republicans are working hard to put in place.

And I'm the racist?

If you believe that then you must be a white conservative in favor of those obstructions.

Quoting homsaR (Reply 102):
What folks on the left really want to avoid is voter suppression, in which eligible voters are harrassed or discouraged from voting, or flat-out prevented from voting. It is a much bigger issue than this mythical "voter fraud," and, in fact, still to this day happens all the time.

BINGO!

Quoting vin2basketball (Reply 103):
If we were to ID the entire US population of 300 million people at $10 per ID, then the cost would be $3 billion, not $30 billion as you quoted.

Of course you then have to add in those who become of age each year, as well as new ones required because people actually change over the years. My wife presented her current "Green Card" (which is no longer green) with her Aussie passport when we returned from our trip last year. The gal at immigration told my wife to get a new card - the current one is 25+ years old.  

A program means that we need to have an ongoing program. Maybe a Department of National IDs. So a Billion here and a Billion there and eventually we will be talking serious money.

Quoting vin2basketball (Reply 103):
If that's a valid complaint, then people who don't have the faintest idea about basic economics (read a good chunk of the Democratic party base) should be barred as well. If these people can't take the time to spend an hour reading up on basic Macro, then maybe they shouldn't be allowed to cast a vote that impacts national, state, or local economic policies for years to come...

I doubt that any of the Founding Fathers took a course in Macro.

Doubt if a large percentage of the man and women who have served in uniform over my 67 years have taken a course.

These days Macro does seem to take a back seat to the very wealthy companies and individuals who are funding politicians with the Super Pacs. Makes Macro pretty unimportant to the country when wealth pushes it out of the way.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 105):
As pointed out before - birth certificates do not have photos.

LOL! Can you see walking into the voting place with your photo birth certificate and getting upset that no one can be sure it's actually you?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 106):
it seems to me that generally the successful management-level or self-employed people I know tend to be GOP,

So if we look at today's most successful company (Apple) the senior management is going to be GOP? My bet is that they will be 50/50 at best.

There can be no doubt, however, that if you want to rise in Corporate American you generally need to make GOP Noises. What you do in the voting booth, however, can be different. You sometimes just need to make the "right noise".

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 106):
and those who are low down on the education scale (administrators, secretaries, etc) and young, well educated people straight out of college tend to be Democrats

And yet we are seeing some of the wealthy (like Gates and Buffett) sounding like Democrats in some areas.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 106):
And then of course you have the special interest groups that tend to be Dems.

Like the American Petroleum Association?

The American Banker's Association?

Quoting slider (Reply 108):
This is a red herring.

No. It, along with other efforts to obstruct some voters from voting, is far from a red herring. It is a real concern for those old enough to remember the obstructions blacks faced. The only difference I see between then and today is then the hate was the driving force while today it is simply minimizing the electoral impact "those people" will have.

Quoting slider (Reply 108):
There's no poll tax implication in any of the voter ID bills that have come along, and the ID issue has also been addressed.

Can you really see the states (especially in the South) hand delivering free IDs so non-whites can vote?

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 109):
What I said was that I do NOT WANT IT MANDATED

If we do not address the issue of the uninsured then any efforts of reform/cost controls in the future will fail. The ONLY issue that mandating health insurance provides over the use of a Medicare system for all is the fact that the mandate approach supports private health insurance. That is why the GOP has supported it until Obama supported it. If you want the lowest priced medical care (the best bang for the buck) you forget about bringing in the private health insurance industry and use Medicare.

Personally I could easily go for core health care covered by public programs - just like Australia and other countries use with better options than we manage to achieve.

Quoting slider (Reply 108):
There's no poll tax implication in any of the voter ID bills that have come along, and the ID issue has also been addressed.

When you bring a direct or indirect cost to voting you are at risk of presenting a Poll Tax type obstacle to the poorer citizens. When you look at the "ID Issue" in conjunction with other efforts to obstruct voters (like limiting voter opportunities to actually vote) then there is a reason to be very concerned with the integrity of our democracy.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 110):
To open it up to anyone who doesn't (or thinks they can't) make it to the polls just opens it open to fraud.

The great thing about expanded voting times, including voting during the week before the election, and expansion of absenteeism voting is that these acts expand the ability to vote for those who work shifts, those who are serving in areas like the military, those who need to face medical issues (like scheduled surgery or pregnancy) and, of court, the handicapped. The limited time for voting was fine in the Era of the Founding Fathers. It doesn't work these days for a noticeable part of the eligible voters.


User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 4025 posts, RR: 28
Reply 113, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 2536 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 93):
So Pyrex,, the census form you got had 2.2222 Questions?

No, it was like that one alright. So I guess it was only 25% of the questions (since telephone number and name don't actually provide you with any statistically relevant information). Still takes up almost half of the real estate on the page, though, with all the different categorizations.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 98):
It just seems like arbitrary and haphazard data collection with a fixation on Asian/Pacific Islander people.

Not to mention the 4 different types of hispanics (which, for some weird reason, seems to include Spanish people).



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6865 posts, RR: 34
Reply 114, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 2508 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 112):
Can you really see the states (especially in the South) hand delivering free IDs so non-whites can vote?

Wow--so are you just openly playing the race card there?

Amazing. Just to remind you Ken, blacks aren't considered 3/5ths anymore, just to enlighten you.

The fact remains, regardless of your deliberate obfuscation, that voter fraud is real, showing an ID is NOT unreasonable, and your protestations to the contrary are illogical and unsupported beyond the usual liberal pablum of talking about the "poor disinfranchised rural blacks." This is the 21st century. Everyone has an ID and if they don't one will be provided. Full stop.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 112):
When you bring a direct or indirect cost to voting you are at risk of presenting a Poll Tax type obstacle to the poorer citizens. When you look at the "ID Issue" in conjunction with other efforts to obstruct voters (like limiting voter opportunities to actually vote) then there is a reason to be very concerned with the integrity of our democracy.

Funny the talk about integrity while you opnely espouse using a system that is lacking any and has loopholes to be exploited.


User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4672 posts, RR: 2
Reply 115, posted (2 years 6 months 2 weeks ago) and read 2500 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 114):
This is the 21st century. Everyone has an ID and if they don't one will be provided. Full stop.

Ho do you feel about the Individual Mandate ?



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlinehomsaR From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 1189 posts, RR: 0
Reply 116, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2462 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 114):
voter fraud is real

Prove it.



I was raised by a cup of coffee.
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 117, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2463 times:

Quoting casinterest (Reply 115):
Ho do you feel about the Individual Mandate ?

Irrelevant to the conversation.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13140 posts, RR: 15
Reply 118, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2457 times:

Some made the suggestion here of USA general elections to be held on a weekend. I would say it wouldn't work. Conservative Jews would't be able to participate as Saturday is their sabbath day, Christians would say no to Sunday for the same reasons.
Better in the USA to make the National election day a holiday, ending Veteran's Day National holiday (Nov. 11). In the USA, our Memorial Day is really the day we acknowledge our dead and survivors of wars much more than on 11/11. Problem would be a real fight by pro military and war veterans groups.

Some countries have voting mandates or penalties for not voting. That won't work in the USA for cultural reasons and could be seen as a poll tax which is illegal in the USA.

A few elsewhere over the year have suggest that every voter would get a lottery ticket for participating. One could reject the offer if offends for personal reasons or have a gambling problem, but if a few people in each polling place were to win $50 and statewide maybe $1000's or even a $1 Million jackpot, that might bring out the people to vote.

Perhaps the real answer is to make your vote count, that you had a chance to vote for a real candidate of a party that would be progressive-centrist, not wedded to faith groups, and with leaders that would make hard but sound decisions, and not part of the corrupt money driven party politics of today. Perhaps more would get the ID's if they though their vote would count.


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8329 posts, RR: 9
Reply 119, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2449 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 114):
Wow--so are you just openly playing the race card there?

I guess the USSC was playing the "race card" when they shot down the Poll Tax.

The reality is that neither the Poll Tax of old, nor the other obstructions that the GOP is developing has a limited target of non-whites. The poor & elderly are two really good targets. Toss in those who are ill with long term medical conditions. Folks like that.

Quoting slider (Reply 114):
Just to remind you Ken, blacks aren't considered 3/5ths anymore, just to enlighten you.

But if the GOP can work at the state level to develop obstruction of various types they might be able to eliminate 40% of those various types from voting - basically reaching that 3/5ths goal that would really help them in November.

Quoting slider (Reply 114):
and your protestations to the contrary are illogical and unsupported

You are ignoring the reality of the GOP today. Obstructions, like limiting voting time, making it difficult to get absenteeism voting, etc. Maybe it's the reality that a black man won the Presidency that has them driving in this rancid direction, maybe it is the corporate cash flow that is pushing them in that direction. The Voter ID issue is just part of the package to obstruct voters who aren't in the "traditional GOP Camp".

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 118):

Some made the suggestion here of USA general elections to be held on a weekend. I would say it wouldn't work. Conservative Jews would't be able to participate as Saturday is their sabbath day, Christians would say no to Sunday for the same reasons.

Providing an opportunity to vote is supported for multiple days of voting, as well as voting by mail. That, unfortunately, is totally opposite of what the GOP wants.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 118):
ending Veteran's Day National holiday

Not necessary, Expanding voting days and expanding voting by mail eliminates the benefits of that. It should also be pointed out that using Vets Day actually shrinks the opportunity to vote. But the GOP would probably support that.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 118):
Problem would be a real fight by pro military and war veterans groups.

Or others who believe in honoring and supporting Veterans in general.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 118):
Perhaps the real answer is to make your vote count,

Good idea. You can start with ending the Electoral College and having a national vote. People who live in hard right or hard left states only have votes count if they vote with which ever side runs the state. How often do you see Presidential candidates working hard for voters in Oklahoma or Louisiana?


User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 4025 posts, RR: 28
Reply 120, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 2451 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 109):
You broke the law. You are required by law to fill one out!

I am sure the U.S. Government has plenty of ways of knowing who I am, where I live, what I do for a living, etc... I bet if I stopped paying my taxes tomorrow they wouldn't need any Census to track me down.



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 121, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2417 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 112):
If we do not address the issue of the uninsured then any efforts of reform/cost controls in the future will fail. The ONLY issue that mandating health insurance provides over the use of a Medicare system for all is the fact that the mandate approach supports private health insurance. That is why the GOP has supported it until Obama supported it. If you want the lowest priced medical care (the best bang for the buck) you forget about bringing in the private health insurance industry and use Medicare.

The thing I also want to see is how much this is going to cost ONE person per month. I want to see dollar figures here. How much is this going to cost per person? If it is less than $15 a month, THEN I will support it being mandated. Until I see some dollar figures on how much it is gonna cost per person, I'll be against it.

At the same time, just don't forget.... if it costs $70 a month per person (for example), many families who make less than $10 an hour cannot afford it. Imagine fining those families $1K per person, per month. Can you say Bankruptcy?? Not a good idea. I don't want to see people going bankrupt because they were forced to buy health insurance that they cannot afford and be fined for it at the same time. It is ridiculous and inappropriate to mandate health insurance right now. Wait till the economy improves first then see where we are at then. Until then, NO.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 112):
When you bring a direct or indirect cost to voting you are at risk of presenting a Poll Tax type obstacle to the poorer citizens.

There is no Poll Tax. Never was. The USSC has ruled that the Poll Tax is unconstitutional as someone else mentioned above. I do support State ID cards for free, provided that the applicant can produce some sort of proof that he/she is a citizen of the USA. If you have a Passport, use that for ID to vote.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 118):
Better in the USA to make the National election day a holiday

Many.many employers in the U.S. will not go for that either. Time is money, after all.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 118):
Some made the suggestion here of USA general elections to be held on a weekend. I would say it wouldn't work. Conservative Jews would't be able to participate as Saturday is their sabbath day, Christians would say no to Sunday for the same reasons.

IMO, that is too bad for them. They forgot that the Church and State are separated, per the Constitution. The Church does not run the U.S. Nobody is forcing anyone to vote. Heck, my best friend never votes. He doesn't care. No one bugs him about it.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 120):

You got lucky. REAL lucky!



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4672 posts, RR: 2
Reply 122, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2404 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 117):
Irrelevant to the conversation.

Not quite. Especially with a statement as strong as that about having a Voter ID.



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 123, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2401 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 119):
I guess the USSC was playing the "race card" when they shot down the Poll Tax.

The reality is that neither the Poll Tax of old, nor the other obstructions that the GOP is developing has a limited target of non-whites.

Your throwing around accusations of racism makes me sick. Not to mention that the poll tax was eliminated by the 24th amendment, not the USSC.

Secondly, tell me how an ID is equivalent to a poll tax, when you need the same ID to conduct the foloowing activities, AND you can get one for free (or nearly so) if you can't scrape $10 bucks together?

Driving
Flying
Opening a bank accunt
Cashing a check
Entering some Federal Facilities
Paying Bills
Get a credit card
Use a credit card
Get Health Insurance
See a doctor for the first time
Get a passport
Give Blood
Get a loan
Enroll in school
Ship packages
Receive packages
Donate money to a political campaign (at least you're supposed to provide some)
Buy a gun
Check into a hotel
Rent a car
Get married
Get divorced
Buy a car
Get a phone
Establish utility service

And by the way, the USSC has already pronounced itself on the subject, saying that Voter ID is not a poll tax, and Justice Stevens (hardly a conservative) declared that Voter ID requirments "is amply justified by the valid interest in protecting 'the integrity and reliability of the electoral process,", and "We cannot conclude that the statute imposes 'excessively burdensome requirements' on any class of voters,". Scalia: "The burden of acquiring, possessing and showing a free photo identification is simply not severe, because it does not 'even represent a significant increase over the usual burdens of voting."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24351798...upholds-voter-id-law/#.T4oxZrNYvKc

[Edited 2012-04-14 19:29:43]


Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8329 posts, RR: 9
Reply 124, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2389 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 121):
The thing I also want to see is how much this is going to cost ONE person per month.

Depends if you have employer nanny care, a government form of care (VA, BIA, etc.).

Break the mandate and you also need to add in existing conditions. Keep them in insurance companies and the costs go up. Kick them out in a capitalist "die fast" and boost profits and the premiums will reduct. Maybe. Might still go up to increase profits.

If you really want to reduce costs then put people on a Medicare based program.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 121):
How much is this going to cost per person? If it is less than $15 a month, THEN I will support it being mandated.

You can't get much non-subsidized medical care in this country for $15 a month. Base this country's health care on a $15 per month standard will simply push the country further down the list outcomes in civilized countries

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 121):
At the same time, just don't forget.... if it costs $70 a month per person (for example), many families who make less than $10 an hour cannot afford it.

Which is why we need to move to a Medicare based system for core care that is paid for via taxes.

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 121):
There is no Poll Tax. Never was. The USSC has ruled that the Poll Tax is unconstitutional as someone else mentioned above.

What is the difference between a poll tax and different ties of "requirements" to vote that increases costs to voters? From a practical position what is the difference for those people living in poverty? Or close to it?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 123):
Your throwing around accusations of racism makes me sick.

I've been pretty clear how I feel about obstructions to people voting, and the increasing costs are just one part of that. Non-shite status is also a part. As is those factors that might move voters to vote for democrats. Elderly people dependent on Social Security & Medicare. The poor who need Medicaid and Food Stamps. It isn't just race, but I think you already know that.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 123):
tell me how an ID is equivalent to a poll tax

And requirement that causes level voters to spend money that they can't really afford is just like a poll tax. It is a financial obstruction to voting.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 125, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2387 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 124):
And requirement that causes level voters to spend money that they can't really afford is just like a poll tax. It is a financial obstruction to voting.

The USSC disagreed with you decisively.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently onlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21681 posts, RR: 55
Reply 126, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2359 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 110):
Absentee ballots need to be for those who can prove they will be out of their polling district on the day in question. To open it up to anyone who doesn't (or thinks they can't) make it to the polls just opens it open to fraud.

You'd be disenfranchising me with that policy. I vote absentee because, with my on-call schedule, I have no idea where I'm going to be on election day. I might be home and able to go to the polling station, but I might not, and I might not know that until the day before, by which point it's too late to run down to the elections office and pick one up. Therefore, the best thing for me to do is to think as if I can't make it, and get an absentee ballot well ahead of time. And there are plenty of other people in similar situations.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 127, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2327 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 124):

I still don't see dollar figures from you. Again, how much is this ObamaCrap supposed to cost one person per month? Can you answer that at least??

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 124):
What is the difference between a poll tax and different ties of "requirements" to vote that increases costs to voters?

Again, there is no poll tax. The 24th amendment forbids it and the USSC upheld it. What part of that is confusing to you, sir?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 124):
And requirement that causes level voters to spend money that they can't really afford is just like a poll tax.

There is no poll tax.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 124):
It is a financial obstruction to voting.

How so? Explain how $10 is hardship to citizens. Again, if citizens cannot scrape up $10, they can get it for free as others have said earlier.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 125):
The USSC disagreed with you decisively.

  . Dreadnought.... do you have the case number on this one? I'm just wanting to read the decision.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 128, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2319 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 127):
  . Dreadnought.... do you have the case number on this one? I'm just wanting to read the decision.

Here is the decision.

http://www.scotusblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/07-21.pdf



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 129, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2279 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 128):
Here is the decision.

A lot to read! Thanks, Dread!  



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3566 posts, RR: 2
Reply 130, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2209 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
But I see no reason why it should be free. An administrative fee of $10-20 is perfectly reasonable.

Because it's considered a 'poll tax'

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 15):
Your National ID is your passport! You have some form of ID that is issued by the U.S.A.

The problem is only about 35% of Americans have a passport.

Quoting Mir (Reply 24):
No law enforcement official can demand any particular form of ID,

In Maryland it is illegal to walk around without an I.D.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 44):
Maybe because they rarely ever happen. Sorry, but if fraud was such a problem, you'd be hearing more about it. The bigger question is why do some people get so worried about voter fraud with little evidence that it really happens? What's the real agenda behind all this "concern" about voter fraud?

An Ohio judge recently stripped 200,000 voters from the rolls because of fraud. Coincidently, Øbama won Ohio by 200,000 votes.



"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 131, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2196 times:

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 130):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 5):
But I see no reason why it should be free. An administrative fee of $10-20 is perfectly reasonable.

Because it's considered a 'poll tax'

Not by the supreme court, which decided that in order to be a poll tax, it must be enough that people might not vite because of it. The supreme court decided in 2008 that voter ID laws do NOT constitute a poll tax, because ID is something that pretty much everyone needs and has already. for other purposes, and because it can be gotten at little to no cost.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3566 posts, RR: 2
Reply 132, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 2183 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 131):
and because it can be gotten at little to no cost.

I agree but that's the meme pushed by the left that it would be like a poll tax. In states that have pushed voter ID they have bent over backwards to make them free including free rides to state offices.



"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39906 posts, RR: 75
Reply 133, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 2179 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 112):
Can you really see the states (especially in the South) hand delivering free IDs so non-whites can vote?

  
Well here is a Black liberal Democrat from Alabama that doesn't agree with you and acknowledge voter fraud exist.
Listen to what fmr. Congressman Arthur Davis has to say about it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/1...davis-former-congre_n_1033226.html

"When I was a congressman, I took the path of least resistance on this subject for an African American politician,"
""Without any evidence to back it up, I lapsed into the rhetoric of various partisans and activists who contend that requiring photo identification to vote is a suppression tactic aimed at thwarting black voter participation."



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 134, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 2176 times:

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 132):
I agree but that's the meme pushed by the left that it would be like a poll tax.

The entire Democratic Party platform is based on such oversimplification and the use of red-meat language. I like to call it the Magpie Strategy, where they try to attract voters who are willing to be drawn by shiny objects. Obama supporters do not generally have much will. They lack independent judgment. They are easily distracted by shiny objects and Obama has a host of shiny things he uses to distract them from the real issues facing the nation. As he has no record upon which to run, Obama needs these shiny objects and they are critical to his re-election efforts. Among them:

The Buffet Rule - It glosses over the difference between earned income (not taxed at your employer, taxed on you) and capital gains (taxed at your employer already), and that the Buffet Rule would only generate about $4 billion per year - less than 1 percent of the current deficit. Obama knows that, but this shiny object gets the class warfare fans all fired up over nothing.

Romney’s tax returns - Obama has called on Mitt Romney to release his past tax returns, saying that candidates for office need to be “as transparent as possible.” Excuse me? This is the guy who won’t release his college records so we can see exactly who was bankrolling him, and who spent years doing some rather shady things under the umbrella of "community organizing". This is the guy who wages a war on whistle blowers. This is the guy who continuously blocks FOIA requests. This is the guy whose administration holds transparency meeting behind closed doors. But Obama can depend on his weak minded supporters to focus on this shiny object and ignore all the rest.

Oil company tax breaks - The Obama devoted think that increasing taxes on oil companies will somehow make gas cheaper and if not, well, at least this shiny object will inflict some pain on companies. They are unable to think through to the fact that whatever is lost will simply be passed along in higher costs. Obama also glosses over the fact that most of these "subsidies" are actually tax deductions for expenses which are deductible for other industries as well.

War on women - Dems deny it, but this has been an official talking point of theirs for a long time, and it's starting to bit back as brief moments of honesty by prominent liberals lately show exactly what they really think of women - especially mothers. And never mind the fact that the Obama white house has been shown to be a hostile place for women to work in.

These shiny objects are of no practical value. None of them would have any significant effect on the economy but Obama is hoping that they will continue to distract and mesmerize the zombies who dare not think seriously for themselves.

[Edited 2012-04-19 09:34:47]


Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently onlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6612 posts, RR: 6
Reply 135, posted (2 years 6 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 2171 times:
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Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 134):
These shiny objects are of no practical value.

You are right. People say the damnest things to get elected:

"Family Values"
"Gay Marriage Ban"

Do we need to get Karl Rove to round up the list?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 136, posted (2 years 6 months 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2123 times:

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 130):
The problem is only about 35% of Americans have a passport.

While that may be true, the passports can be cheaper in order to accommodate everyone in need of one. Again, this CAN serve as some form of a National ID, in which case, it already is.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 130):
In Maryland it is illegal to walk around without an I.D.

Isn't that a "blue law"?? I have never heard of that law.



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinePu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 724 posts, RR: 14
Reply 137, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2076 times:

This is such a non-issue clearly drummed up to boil the blood of emotional responses versus focusing attention on issues of substance.

For those worried about illegal voting: believe me, I've worked with criminals and illegal aliens quite a bit: the LAST thing they are going to do is walk into a polling place to try to vote. Not interested. Scared of any contact with authorities. Scared of jail. Completely unconcerned with the political process. Period.

In 2000 more people voted for a man who did not become president than voted for the man who did. From the outside looking in, that is an huge problem, yet some are worried about a non-existent problem of illegals voting.

NEWSFLASH: those inelligible to vote show up and vote in no significant numbers. This is purely a manufactured "problem" and neither "solving" it nor letting it fester will address the real issues facing America.

Pu


User currently offlineKingairTA From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 458 posts, RR: 0
Reply 138, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2073 times:

Concern about costs for the poor. Well if they are receiving any type of government assistance they have to have some form of picture ID.

And those who don't have an ID wouldn't take the time to vote anyways. They aren't voting now why would they vote later?


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8866 posts, RR: 24
Reply 139, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2055 times:

Quoting Pu (Reply 137):
NEWSFLASH: those inelligible to vote show up and vote in no significant numbers. This is purely a manufactured "problem" and neither "solving" it nor letting it fester will address the real issues facing America.

They were just interviewing someone on TV who found out that the name of her grandmother, who has been dead for 8 years, has been registered to vote for every election since then, and they even have the polling place records showing the name crossed out - meaning that someone showed up and voted with that name.

Look if it even happens once (yeah, right) why take the risk. Require voter ID. And restrict absentee ballots to those people who can provide some evidence that they can't make it to the voting booth that day.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5675 posts, RR: 10
Reply 140, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2037 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 139):
They were just interviewing someone on TV who found out that the name of her grandmother, who has been dead for 8 years, has been registered to vote for every election since then, and they even have the polling place records showing the name crossed out - meaning that someone showed up and voted with that name.

Look if it even happens once (yeah, right) why take the risk. Require voter ID. And restrict absentee ballots to those people who can provide some evidence that they can't make it to the voting booth that day.

You know, that is as weak a source as I have heard, you would never accept that as any form of justification in an argument if used to support a viewpoint opposing yours. For all we know it is the woman herself showing up and doing it or that nothing at all is happening and she is making it up to support and justify her fear.

"I saw an interview of a person who said...." Wow.

Yep, that's gotta be proof that sum'it bad is goin' on.

Frankly, I am surprised that you are using it. Everything I have read and seen and that I know of that has been investigated has shown that "voter fraud" where ID would do anything has shown it to be be inconsequential. The real danger of fraud is on the other side of the Poll, the back room, the electronic tabulation, the polling stations that have no monitoring.

The simple thing is that I find this to be such a non-issue, it is only a panic, distracting from real issues and from getting real problems addressed. I don't care about voter ID, it doesn't affect me or my community in any way. Go ahead, require ID, I won't care but to spend legislative time and effort and to spend real dollars on a problem THAT ISN'T A PROBLEM, is stupid. And for that I do care. We have real problems to spend our money on. We have real problems to spend our time on. Address them first.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlinePu From Sweden, joined Dec 2011, 724 posts, RR: 14
Reply 141, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 2035 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 139):
Look if it even happens once (yeah, right) why take the risk

1. Because you have limited resources and much larger problems. Petty issues are being used as an electioneering tool. So you can choose between "solving" a problem that does not exist, which at minimum would cost hundreds of millions of dollars better spent on known and indisputable complaints, or you could spend the money reducing the debt or educating your kids. Focusing on minutia that is emotionally appealing gets politicians elected and this issue serves only political rhetoric.

2. What is the risk you allege exists "even if it happens once" exactly?

Pu


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11720 posts, RR: 15
Reply 142, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2016 times:

It is so interesting to me that the right screams and cries and gnashes their teeth over "voter ID fraud" but deines the Deibold voting machines switch votes and want to use them in every presinct. Even when an evil Democrat shows the world how they switch votes.

AND, not every single vote is counted! The right does not care about that. Just the fact that people need to show ID when the show up to vote. They will go ahead and switch the ballots later.

Oregon solved that problem: Vote by mail. One voter, one ballot. Period. When I lived in Portland, I got one ballot. I filled it out and dropped it off. I did not/could not have a chance to commit fraud. Ever. But, I never knew if that ballot ever got counted. The right never cares about that.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5496 posts, RR: 14
Reply 143, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1994 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 142):
It is so interesting to me that the right screams and cries and gnashes their teeth over "voter ID fraud" but deines the Deibold voting machines switch votes and want to use them in every presinct. Even when an evil Democrat shows the world how they switch votes.

I, for one, want a paper trail when I vote. I like marking my ballot.

Oh, and please provide a citation for the 'vote switching'. I'd be interested in reading it. Any voter fraud is unacceptable.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 142):
Oregon solved that problem: Vote by mail. One voter, one ballot. Period. When I lived in Portland, I got one ballot. I filled it out and dropped it off. I did not/could not have a chance to commit fraud. Ever. But, I never knew if that ballot ever got counted. The right never cares about that.

Yeah...that solved the problem. I see all kinds of opportnities for fraud in that kind of system. I want to go to the polling place and vote. If, for some reason, I'm not going to be in town, I will use an absentee ballot. Simple.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently onlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6612 posts, RR: 6
Reply 144, posted (2 years 6 months 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 1992 times:
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Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 139):
Require voter ID

I agree with you 100%

However, what i find suspect is the timing of this "problem". This existed when GWB was elected twice, the GOP made huge gains in 2010 - but now,. when Obama is for re-election, it just happened to become a front burner issue,

Also, as stated before - its the states that run elections - so how come even the heavy "blue states" have not instituted Voter ID laws?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11720 posts, RR: 15
Reply 145, posted (2 years 6 months 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 1981 times: