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Anders Behring Breivik Trial Starts Today  
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7037 posts, RR: 3
Posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2231 times:

The trial of ABB starts today, for those who don't remember ABB is accused of murdering 77 people last July.

Quote:
Nine months after he inflicted the greatest national trauma on Norway since World War II, the trial of 33-year-old Anders Behring Breivik was getting underway in the Oslo City Court Monday morning. Breivik was driven in a convoy from his cells at Ila Prison outside the city to the courthouse, where he faces formal charges of committing terrorist attacks, 77 murders, 42 attempted murders and causing massive structural damage after bombing Norway’s government headquarters.

More info here

71 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 5974 posts, RR: 3
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2201 times:

.. and we're off to a flyer, with Breivik refusing to recognize the court, seeing as its legal mandate comes from "multi-cultural parties"  

[Edited 2012-04-16 01:35:50]

User currently offlineCXfirst From Norway, joined Jan 2007, 3020 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2196 times:

I'm watching it here from Australia, and it's just angering me. No sign of remorse, etc. Almost seems like he is enjoying himself.  

-CXfirst



From Norway, live in Australia
User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3369 posts, RR: 2
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2150 times:

I don't even see why Norway is having a trial. He admitted he did it (albeit not guilty). Most countries would just have a sentencing hearing and throw him in the slammer.


"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7037 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2148 times:

His crying during the playing of his video blog was a bit much to take. The police should have ended it with a bullet on Utoya.

User currently offlinetravelavnut From Netherlands, joined May 2010, 1586 posts, RR: 7
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2147 times:

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 3):
I don't even see why Norway is having a trial. He admitted he did it (albeit not guilty). Most countries would just have a sentencing hearing and throw him in the slammer.

Because, luckily, Norway is a civilized country...



Live From Amsterdam!
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7037 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 2144 times:

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 3):
Most countries would just have a sentencing hearing and throw him in the slammer.

That's an exaggeration, most civilised countries would have a trial, even the rest would have had a show trial. My beef is with the police, they could have made up for their incompetence by shooting him instead of arresting him.


User currently offlineAF1624 From France, joined Jul 2006, 652 posts, RR: 0
Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 2118 times:

I just read that the maximum sentence he can get is a renewable 21 years.

21 years ? Seriously ? For 77 lives ?



Cheers
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8780 posts, RR: 24
Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2107 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 6):
My beef is with the police, they could have made up for their incompetence by shooting him instead of arresting him.

But then you'd have the bleeding hearts of the world berating the police for having executed a man without trial, his rights were violated, yada yada yada...

But I'm glad you recognize that there are some people in the world that we could do better without. Can we count on your support for the death penalty then?



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1830 posts, RR: 10
Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 2089 times:

I'm not a proponent of the death penalty. But once in a while a case like this comes around where exceptions should be made. When there is this much carnage committed by one man/woman, and it is without a sliver of doubt that he/she was the perpetrator, then there is no reason my tax dollars should pay for them to be incarcerated for the remainder of their life.



Quoting CPH-R (Reply 1):
.. and we're off to a flyer, with Breivik refusing to recognize the court, seeing as its legal mandate comes from "multi-cultural parties"

He made this clear after he was arrested when he was remanded. I'm not surprised he is repeating this sentiment.

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 3):
Most countries would just have a sentencing hearing and throw him in the slammer.

I'm not aware of any first-world country that does that. No matter how sickening the crime, I believe everyone has the right to a trial. In this case, it will just be a slam-dunk for the prosecution. I just hope the defense doesn't stretch this out longer than it needs to be.



Flying refined.
User currently offlineCXfirst From Norway, joined Jan 2007, 3020 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2083 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
But then you'd have the bleeding hearts of the world berating the police for having executed a man without trial, his rights were violated, yada yada yada...

I agree here, just wish he would have raised a gun towards one of the police, so that they had just cause to put a bullet in his head......

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 9):
I'm not aware of any first-world country that does that. No matter how sickening the crime, I believe everyone has the right to a trial. In this case, it will just be a slam-dunk for the prosecution. I just hope the defense doesn't stretch this out longer than it needs to be.

Well seeing as there have been two sets of psychologists to study him, with one set saying he is criminally insane, and one saying he was sane and should be tried as a sane man, it is not as clear cut as many think it is. Yes, he did it, but that is not all the trial is about.

Although something is definitely not right with him, I believe with so much planning and thinking through of his actions, he should be tried as fully accountable, as he never seemed to stray from his ideas.

-CXfirst



From Norway, live in Australia
User currently offlinestealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5669 posts, RR: 45
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2075 times:
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Quoting travelavnut (Reply 5):
Because, luckily, Norway is a civilized country...

For the crimes he committed- 21 years, that is a joke!!
At something younger than I am now he will be a free man living a protected life with a new identity and a pension.. seems kinda wrong to me.

But this politically correct madness does escape me(read today of another "enlightened" European country that sentenced a woman that left her baby to die .. to avoid family shame! receiving a custodial sentence of 26 WEEKS)

I think Breivik should be committed to life without release.. in a mental prison(denying him the martyr/warrior status he craves)



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlinedc9northwest From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 2264 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2065 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
But I'm glad you recognize that there are some people in the world that we could do better without. Can we count on your support for the death penalty then?

I do not support the death penalty. I think murderers should be left to rot in jail, not killed so they don't feel anything anymore. Better that they suffer in jail...

Quoting AF1624 (Reply 7):
I just read that the maximum sentence he can get is a renewable 21 years.

Does Norway allow cumulative sentences? For example, 21 years for each victim?


User currently offlineAF1624 From France, joined Jul 2006, 652 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2052 times:

Quoting stealthz (Reply 11):
For the crimes he committed- 21 years, that is a joke!!

Especially when you think that these 21 years will be spent in a room that looks more like a hotel room than a prison cell... individual room with fully equipped bathroom, television, glass window, drawers...

This is a photo taken at Halden prison :

halden prison


Heck, I'd like my room to look as good as this...

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 12):
Does Norway allow cumulative sentences? For example, 21 years for each victim?

From what I've read in a French newspaper, there are no cumulative sentences, but there are renewable sentences. Meaning the court puts him in prison for 21 years, and this can be increased if deemed necessary (for bad behaviour for example). But if he behaves (which he probably will), then the maximum sentence is 21 years. It's sort of an automatic parole, if you will.



Cheers
User currently offlineCXfirst From Norway, joined Jan 2007, 3020 posts, RR: 1
Reply 14, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2030 times:

Quoting AF1624 (Reply 13):
From what I've read in a French newspaper, there are no cumulative sentences, but there are renewable sentences. Meaning the court puts him in prison for 21 years, and this can be increased if deemed necessary (for bad behaviour for example)

There are no cumulative sentences, but if he is deemed to still be a risk at the end of his sentence (if I understand it correctly), it can be extended. Wouldn't be surprised if he still keeps his political ideals and lack of remorse at the end of his sentence and be deemed a continued threat, and hence having sentence extensions given to him. I just can't imagine someone showing so little remorse after killing 77 ever becoming a non-threat.

-CXfirst



From Norway, live in Australia
User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2370 posts, RR: 21
Reply 15, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 2006 times:

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 2):

I'm watching it here from Australia, and it's just angering me. No sign of remorse, etc. Almost seems like he is enjoying himself.
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 4):
His crying during the playing of his video blog was a bit much to take. The police should have ended it with a bullet on Utoya.

I agree. This part is the most absurd part of the trial so far.. he shows no sign of remorse when they read the names of the victims out loud, but as soon as his home made video is played, he is crying. He really is a complete nutcase.

The worst part is that he will most likely never regret his actions and it seems like he is treated extremely well in prison and even has access to a computer. And when he is released in 21 years, he will have the right to receive state funded pension I guess... I would be extremely mad if someone I knew had been killed by him and now he is even allowed to explain how he sees the world during the trial and explain why he did what he did.

And one more thing.. it seems absurd that killing 1 or killing 77 people results in the same 21 years of punishment. Apparently you get a huge discount for killing more than 1 person like it is in some crazy way accepted by society to be a mass murderer.. he should have sentences added together like it is done in the US, just to clearly highlight what a disgusting person he is and to make sure that he will never set a foot outside prison again.

[Edited 2012-04-16 09:08:52]

User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2838 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1993 times:

Quoting AF1624 (Reply 7):
I just read that the maximum sentence he can get is a renewable 21 years.

21 years ? Seriously ? For 77 lives ?

I thought Norway was considering using some sort of "domestic terrorism" charge that would allow for a maximum of 30 years?

Quoting AF1624 (Reply 13):
Especially when you think that these 21 years will be spent in a room that looks more like a hotel room than a prison cell... individual room with fully equipped bathroom, television, glass window, drawers...

I don't think the Norwegian prison system was developed with someone like Breivik in mind. In general, the prison system there focuses on rehabilitation rather than punishment. I remember right after the attacks in Oslo we had an enlightening discussion about this here.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7037 posts, RR: 3
Reply 17, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1989 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
But then you'd have the bleeding hearts of the world berating the police for having executed a man without trial, his rights were violated, yada yada yada...

Police shoot people all the time, in this instance after what the arresting officers saw, I think it would have been justified, anyone who complained would have looked stupid.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 15):

I agree. This part is the most absurd part of the trial so far.. he shows no sign of remorse when they read the names of the victims out loud, but as soon as his home made video is played, he is crying.

All the Norwegian channels blanked out the descriptions of the deaths, you had to watch CNN, Sky or BBC to get the un censored version.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 15):
He really is a complete nutcase.

He's not nuts, the state tried to get him certified nuts, then they could have held him in an institution indefinitely, or until he showed remorse and they certified him sane, he could have been back on the streets in a couple of years, if he was nuts. He was certified sane.


User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2370 posts, RR: 21
Reply 18, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1987 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 17):
He's not nuts, the state tried to get him certified nuts, then they could have held him in an institution indefinitely, or until he showed remorse and they certified him sane, he could have been back on the streets in a couple of years, if he was nuts. He was certified sane.

I know all this but you're just not completely sane if you are able to do something like this. He is probably not psychotic, no..


User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8373 posts, RR: 3
Reply 19, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1982 times:

I hope during his trial 100s of girls describe how they will now reject pure Norwegian boys and have children exclusively with men from other countries, and make it clear that his actions directly caused the Norwegian bloodline to become more multicultural.

User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3806 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1960 times:

Quoting AF1624 (Reply 7):
I just read that the maximum sentence he can get is a renewable 21 years.

21 years ? Seriously ? For 77 lives ?

He can get 21 years + he can possibly be sentenced to containment (the Norwegian legal term is forvaring), a form of special protective custody which means he may be held in prison indefinitely and is subject to release only at the discretion of a judge after his sentence is served. Containment is roughly comparable to a life sentence in many other European countries. I am guessing that this is what he most likely will get. It basically means life in prison. He is not likely to get out.

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 12):
Does Norway allow cumulative sentences? For example, 21 years for each victim?

No

****************************


As for capital punishment in Norway:

An opinion poll taken after the 2011 Norway attacks showed that the opposition to the death penalty remained firmly entrenched, with 16 percent supporting and 68 percent opposed

[Edited 2012-04-16 10:06:39]

User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8780 posts, RR: 24
Reply 21, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1950 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 17):
Police shoot people all the time, in this instance after what the arresting officers saw, I think it would have been justified, anyone who complained would have looked stupid.

Look at all the people who whined and moaned that Osama Bin Ladin should have been captured instead of executed. I can't think of any time that a criminal killed by cops (even in the middle of a gunfight) didn't result in editorials and outrage among the bleeding heart crowd.

I'm not that much of a fan of the death penalty due to past errors. But when it comes to someone where there is no possible doubt, and where the crime shows a clear and total guilt combined with sociopathy, why keep him around?



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2838 posts, RR: 12
Reply 22, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1935 times:

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 20):
He can get 21 years + he can possibly be sentenced to containment (the Norwegian legal term is forvaring), a form of special protective custody which means he may be held in prison indefinitely and is subject to release only at the discretion of a judge after his sentence is served. Containment is roughly comparable to a life sentence in many other European countries. I am guessing that this is what he most likely will get. It basically means life in prison. He is not likely to get out.

That sounds like what Canada and England do for a small number of convicted people. In Canadian criminal law they get designated as a "dangerous offender" that lets them keep the person in prison for an indeterminate amount of time.

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 20):

An opinion poll taken after the 2011 Norway attacks showed that the opposition to the death penalty remained firmly entrenched, with 16 percent supporting and 68 percent opposed

And, it's your country. I may or may not agree with how your citizenry decides to punish criminals, but you are rightly free to deal with criminals your own way.

Thanks for posting the update on this trial. Outside of a few updates on the progress here in the news over the past year, there hasn't been much press coverage.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7037 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1915 times:

Quoting Flighty (Reply 19):
I hope during his trial 100s of girls describe how they will now reject pure Norwegian boys and have children exclusively with men from other countries, and make it clear that his actions directly caused the Norwegian bloodline to become more multicultural.

From my observations Norwegian girls won't go anywhere near the Pakistani, Somali, Arab imports we have, now Norwegian men on the other had don't appear to be very picky.


User currently onlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8668 posts, RR: 43
Reply 24, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1911 times:

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 18):
I know all this but you're just not completely sane if you are able to do something like this. He is probably not psychotic, no.

His crime and personality, or what transpires of it, remind me of certain characters constructed in books or movies: those which we refer to as "evil". They have some sort of higher aim that would strike any normal person as insane right away, but they pursue it with utter ruthlessness and astonishing (in the worst possible sense of the word) endurance. To them, human lives - no matter the number - are far less important than achieving what they have in mind, so they torture and murder without hesitation or remorse if it becomes "necessary".



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2838 posts, RR: 12
Reply 25, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1988 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 24):
His crime and personality, or what transpires of it, remind me of certain characters constructed in books or movies: those which we refer to as "evil". They have some sort of higher aim that would strike any normal person as insane right away, but they pursue it with utter ruthlessness and astonishing (in the worst possible sense of the word) endurance. To them, human lives - no matter the number - are far less important than achieving what they have in mind, so they torture and murder without hesitation or remorse if it becomes "necessary".

Have you read his manifesto? It certainly seems from what he wrote that is exactly how he saw himself as long as you replace "evil" with "hero".



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13942 posts, RR: 63
Reply 26, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1988 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 24):
Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 18):
I know all this but you're just not completely sane if you are able to do something like this. He is probably not psychotic, no.

His crime and personality, or what transpires of it, remind me of certain characters constructed in books or movies: those which we refer to as "evil". They have some sort of higher aim that would strike any normal person as insane right away, but they pursue it with utter ruthlessness and astonishing (in the worst possible sense of the word) endurance. To them, human lives - no matter the number - are far less important than achieving what they have in mind, so they torture and murder without hesitation or remorse if it becomes "necessary".

You have quite a few of those among people with radical political ideologies or religious fanatics.
Anything is justified as long as it serves the final goal.
You could include you standard SS concentration camp guard or internal KGB officer.
Most terrorists also fall under this category.
As Stalin said: "If one person dies, it is a tragedy. If a million people die, it is just statistics."

Jan


User currently onlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8668 posts, RR: 43
Reply 27, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1995 times:

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 25):
Have you read his manifesto?

No, I don't think it deserves the attention. In any case, I've already read more than enough hateful insane garbage on the internet and figured that I should stop at some point.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 26):
You have quite a few of those among people with radical political ideologies or religious fanatics.

absolutely   

By the way, one of the characters I was thinking of is Deacon Vorbis from Terry Pratchett's "Small Gods" - highly recommended; it may be comic fantasy, but it's packed to the point of bursting with parables.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13942 posts, RR: 63
Reply 28, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1987 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 27):
By the way, one of the characters I was thinking of is Deacon Vorbis from Terry Pratchett's "Small Gods" - highly recommended; it may be comic fantasy, but it's packed to the point of bursting with parables.

As are all books by Terry Pratchett. I´m a fan of his books.

Jan


User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2838 posts, RR: 12
Reply 29, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1977 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 27):
No, I don't think it deserves the attention. In any case, I've already read more than enough hateful insane garbage on the internet and figured that I should stop at some point.

I don't think it adds attention, only that it makes you more aware of what he was or wasn't thinking. Since the first mental competency exam said he was insane reading it lets you make your own informed determination (however unscientific) of whether you think he is or isn't. He seemed very cognizant of what he was doing from what I could tell. He spent months if not years preparing for that horrible day in Oslo.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3369 posts, RR: 2
Reply 30, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 1945 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 9):
I'm not aware of any first-world country that does that.

In the US if you plead guilty...no jury trial....straight to the sentencing hearing. I'd forgot they were still trying to determine his sanity.

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 12):
Does Norway allow cumulative sentences? For example, 21 years for each victim?

Nope.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 15):
he shows no sign of remorse when they read the names of the victims out loud,

Even while the prosecutor was reading exactly how each victim died, i.e. bullet to head.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 23):
From my observations Norwegian girls won't go anywhere near the Pakistani, Somali, Arab imports we have, now Norwegian men on the other had don't appear to be very picky.

  

They want foreign women who aren't so 'liberated'.

Tomorrow should be fun as he gets to take the stand for 15 mins.



"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13942 posts, RR: 63
Reply 31, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1929 times:

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 30):
In the US if you plead guilty...no jury trial....straight to the sentencing hearing. I'd forgot they were still trying to determine his sanity.

Sometimes you have people who confess having carried out crimes, where they were never involved in. Usually these people have some mental issues. The problem is that sometimes the police /prosecutor / judge go the easy way and sentence such a person, who then serves in jail, while the real criminal is still at large, committing more crimes.
So it is the prosecutor´s and police´s duty to also check evidence, which would give the suspect an alibi.

Jan


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19278 posts, RR: 58
Reply 32, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 1880 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
But I'm glad you recognize that there are some people in the world that we could do better without. Can we count on your support for the death penalty then?

I'd rather he go to jail with a bunch of "multicultural" prisoners. Don't worry; he won't last long.


User currently offlineCXfirst From Norway, joined Jan 2007, 3020 posts, RR: 1
Reply 33, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1825 times:

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 16):
I thought Norway was considering using some sort of "domestic terrorism" charge that would allow for a maximum of 30 years?

In Norway you can get 30 years for crimes against humanity, but I'm unsure if he will get this.

I also took notice to his calls to the police from Utoeya. These were calls during his killings. No real emotion, speaking without any stuttering, sounds like any other call, no rush, normal paced call where he states his name, what is role is (leader in....). If I was on the receiving end of that call, I would have thought it would be impossible for him to be in the middle of the process of killing 69 youths.

-CXfirst



From Norway, live in Australia
User currently offlinekiwiinoz From New Zealand, joined Oct 2005, 2165 posts, RR: 5
Reply 34, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1811 times:

I haven't watched any of it yet. But it seems he's not "crazy" in the clinical sense, correct? An extremist who was quite content to be brutal and destructive for his "cause"

If this is the case, obviously 21 years is not enough. For starters, he is unlikely to shed his beliefs over that period. When released, he will be like a hero of the extreme right and will probably cause further destruction.

That picture of the prison cell is luxury compared to what I lived in during my university days!!!


User currently onlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13005 posts, RR: 12
Reply 35, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 1811 times:

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 30):
Tomorrow should be fun as he gets to take the stand for 15 mins.

Is this a mandated requirement or is it optional for the accused in Norway? In the USA you are not required and indeed there are Constitutional level protections, with some limited exceptions, that you do not have to take the stand in any criminal trial to be subject to questions by your defense counsel or the prosecutor. I would be concerned that his time on the stand will be, as we have seen in many trials of political protesters, of him spewing his sick, offensive and mindless rantings rather than a presentation of a defense.

It is too bad Breivik didn't take his own life or try to shoot a cop, but then we didn't want an vigilante or murder by cop situation either. Since he is still alive he gets the opportunity of a trial and the system has to go it's way. Yes, the possible sentence is far too low compared to the standards in some countries but at least they don't have the moral challenging choice of a death penalty. Hopefully he will end up with the purgatory of living the rest of his life in a jail for the mentally ill.


User currently offlineYVRLTN From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 2435 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 1764 times:

Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 29):
He spent months if not years preparing for that horrible day in Oslo.

This is another thing. Will the trial look at how someone could plan such a thing, buy all the fertilizer & equipment etc without a single soul noticing he was at least a little odd? Surely after the bomb going off and the bullets being fired was not the first time anybody realized what views this man held? I mention it just in view of it not happening again by some copycat to support whatever agenda.



Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
User currently offlineCXfirst From Norway, joined Jan 2007, 3020 posts, RR: 1
Reply 37, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 1749 times:

Quoting YVRLTN (Reply 36):
Surely after the bomb going off and the bullets being fired was not the first time anybody realized what views this man held? I mention it just in view of it not happening again by some copycat to support whatever agenda.

People would have noticed his far-right views, etc. But I don't think anybody would even begin to imagine his actions. He had set up a farming business, so his purchase of fertilizer wasn't seen as odd (although we know now that the business wasn't real).

The prosecuter went through Breivik's life before the attack, and I couldn't see anything that would cause any alarms to go in my head. Possibly his involvement with the "Knights Templar", however, this was held pretty quiet, and the prosecuters are still unsure about his level of involvement, or even if the organization exists at all. There were of course purchases that might have put out alarms, but these were bought from different sellers at different points of time, and I know people who have more weapons than he bought, so again, hard to single him out before the event took place.

-CXfirst



From Norway, live in Australia
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7037 posts, RR: 3
Reply 38, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1723 times:

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 37):
People would have noticed his far-right views, etc. But I don't think anybody would even begin to imagine his actions. He had set up a farming business, so his purchase of fertilizer wasn't seen as odd (although we know now that the business wasn't real).

I think he was very good at hiding his point of view, most of the people who knew him didn't know anything about this. Besides being anti immigrant in Norway is more common than not.


User currently offlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 5974 posts, RR: 3
Reply 39, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 1714 times:

Indeed, in one of his manifests he even laid out how to purchase large quantities of fertilizer without arousing suspicion, stating how much farm land you need in order to purchase x amount of ANFO, and how to mask the purchase by buying y amount of other materials.

User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13942 posts, RR: 63
Reply 40, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1689 times:

Quoting kiwiinoz (Reply 34):
I haven't watched any of it yet. But it seems he's not "crazy" in the clinical sense, correct? An extremist who was quite content to be brutal and destructive for his "cause"

He was just as crazy as a member of the SS Einsatzgruppen, who executed Jews in the German occupied territories in WW2: The Jewish conspiracy is trying to destroy Germany, so we have to kill them all before they destroy us. No mercy with women and children, the children will eventually grow up into adult Jews. Just think about them as vermin, which has to be destroyed.
I think that Breivik´s mindset would have fitted very well in to the Nazi SS.

Jan

[Edited 2012-04-17 01:13:34]

User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3354 posts, RR: 9
Reply 41, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 1674 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
But then you'd have the bleeding hearts of the world berating the police for having executed a man without trial, his rights were violated, yada yada yada...

Look whoever thinks that is out to lunch.

I don't care how liberal someone is if you are a police officer that sees a person shooting anybody you shoot the shooter simple as that. If a cop shoots someone unarmed than there rights issue should come into play.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 9):

I'm not a proponent of the death penalty. But once in a while a case like this comes around where exceptions should be made. When there is this much carnage committed by one man/woman, and it is without a sliver of doubt that he/she was the perpetrator, then there is no reason my tax dollars should pay for them to be incarcerated for the remainder of their life.

It's an easy way out, If I ever killed someone even if it was in passion and knew I would get caught I would do everything possible to either get off or get the death penalty. So much better than a life sentence IMO.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 5974 posts, RR: 3
Reply 42, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 1668 times:

Looks like he delivered a key line as far as a potential "forvaring" sentence is concerned, by stating that he'd do it all again.

User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3806 posts, RR: 1
Reply 43, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 1564 times:

EXPLAINED: The Norwegian Legal System Where Mass Murderer Breivik Is On Trial

Read more: http://www.thejournal.ie/explainer-h...rate-420142-Apr2012/#ixzz1sKGjldZm


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13942 posts, RR: 63
Reply 44, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 1530 times:

The system with the lay judges sounds very much like the German system.

Jan


User currently offlineAirframeAS From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 14150 posts, RR: 24
Reply 45, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1489 times:

Quoting AF1624 (Reply 13):
This is a photo taken at Halden prison :

 Wow! That's not a prison! That's a hotel! You gotta be kidding me!!! I can't even get my room to look as good as THAT!



A Safe Flight Begins With Quality Maintenance On The Ground.
User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3369 posts, RR: 2
Reply 46, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 1485 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 35):
Is this a mandated requirement or is it optional for the accused in Norway?

No it's not mandated but it is his right.

He said in his 70-minute testimony he would do it again in a heart beat.



"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
User currently offlinedc9northwest From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 2264 posts, RR: 7
Reply 47, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 20 hours ago) and read 1464 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 45):
That's not a prison! That's a hotel! You gotta be kidding me!!! I can't even get my room to look as good as THAT!

You can tell a lot about a country by its prisons, and how it treats its inmates...

That said, some people definitely don't deserve such a prison cell, aka hotel room.

It does not seem to me that Breivik is someone who can be rehabilitated, unfortunately. I don't think the Norwegian justice system is designed to deal with such people, but it's still better than the antithesis (innocent people jailed in 3rd world countries, for one).

Quoting Mortyman (Reply 20):
Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 12):
Does Norway allow cumulative sentences? For example, 21 years for each victim?

No
Quoting AF1624 (Reply 13):
Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 12):
Does Norway allow cumulative sentences? For example, 21 years for each victim?

From what I've read in a French newspaper, there are no cumulative sentences, but there are renewable sentences. Meaning the court puts him in prison for 21 years, and this can be increased if deemed necessary (for bad behaviour for example). But if he behaves (which he probably will), then the maximum sentence is 21 years. It's sort of an automatic parole, if you will.

Thanks for the answers, guys. I didn't think so. Hopefully this fellow will get a full sentence, as there's no doubt of his guilt and of his being a menace to society. Don't think it matters that much if he'll be in a prison or a mental institution, as long as he doesn't walk around on the streets.


User currently offlineCXfirst From Norway, joined Jan 2007, 3020 posts, RR: 1
Reply 48, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1442 times:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 41):
I don't care how liberal someone is if you are a police officer that sees a person shooting anybody you shoot the shooter simple as that. If a cop shoots someone unarmed than there rights issue should come into play.

When the police arrived, he was not shooting, he had layed down his weapon and surrendered. If the police had shot him with that happening, there would have been a thorough investigation.

Let's not forget, at the start, witness reports were mentioning two shooters, and the police were also wondering if there was a larger network. Without Breivik's police interviews, some of these questions would have been left unanswered.

-CXfirst



From Norway, live in Australia
User currently offlineprebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6374 posts, RR: 54
Reply 49, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 1429 times:

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 47):
It does not seem to me that Breivik is someone who can be rehabilitated, unfortunately. I don't think the Norwegian justice system is designed to deal with such people...

I think you are very right.

To me it seems like the law makers in "our" part of the world look upon imprisoning of criminals only in a "single dimensional way". To me it has (at least) three dimensions:

1. To educate criminals to become non-criminal.
2. To protect society from criminality.
3. To "scare" potential criminals from passing the line to criminality.

It seems to me that politicians only talk about dimension number 1.

According to number 2 it is a crime against the Norwegian society if Breivik can get a time limited sentence. In this context I wouldn't exclude him being released on an amnesty after a few decades in case he changes to an entirely different person and proves rock stable over at least a decade in prison.

But taking number 3 into account? No, people who might plan similar things, they should know in advance that their exit from prison is the graveyard only.

We need more intelligent politicians who are able to look at our justice systems in a multi-dimensional way. What they call "humanity" in our justice systems is sometimes "crime" against ordinary people. And to what purpose? If we imagine that Breivik is released in some twenty years time, there is no way he can live a life. Nobody will want to walk on the same side of the streets as him. Nobody will talk to him. How many days (hours or minutes) will you give him before he gets killed? Police will in any case have to protect him until his dust is spread on the sea.

[Edited 2012-04-17 19:54:24]


Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7037 posts, RR: 3
Reply 50, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 1405 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 45):
Wow! That's not a prison! That's a hotel! You gotta be kidding me!!! I can't even get my room to look as good as THAT!

His cell will probably look even nicer than this one, from what I understand he will be kept in isolation in a prison annex all to himself.


User currently offlinestratosphere From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 1651 posts, RR: 4
Reply 51, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 14 hours ago) and read 1397 times:

Quoting AirframeAS (Reply 45):
That's not a prison! That's a hotel! You gotta be kidding me!!! I can't even get my room to look as good as THAT!

If you ever read the book by Frank Abingnale "Catch me if you Can" a movie staring Leonardo DeCaprio was made highlighting the book. Well in the book he was incarcerated in Sweden and his stay was much like this in Norway... One of his worst stays was in France. But Sweden was a country club I suspect Norway is the same.. Must be nice it's nice to not be in humane but this guy doesn't fit that bill or deserve to be treated humanely.



NWA THE TRUE EVIL EMPIRE
User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26338 posts, RR: 76
Reply 52, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 1366 times:

Quoting AF1624 (Reply 7):

I just read that the maximum sentence he can get is a renewable 21 years.

21 years ? Seriously ? For 77 lives ?

They can both renew the sentence and use this "containment" status to keep him in.

Quoting stealthz (Reply 11):
At something younger than I am now he will be a free man living a protected life with a new identity and a pension.. seems kinda wrong to me.

Yeah, that's not going to happen.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 21):
Look at all the people who whined and moaned that Osama Bin Ladin should have been captured instead of executed.

Meh. Bin Laden probably had guns and bodyguards. Shooting him was an easy choice.

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 51):
Must be nice it's nice to not be in humane but this guy doesn't fit that bill or deserve to be treated humanely.

That mentality then sinks to the level of a barbarian like this terrorist. Its hardly "humane" to be locked up and unable to leave any place.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlinestealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5669 posts, RR: 45
Reply 53, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 1346 times:
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Quoting N1120A (Reply 52):
They can both renew the sentence and use this "containment" status to keep him in.

But will they??

Quoting N1120A (Reply 52):
Yeah, that's not going to happen.

You underestimate the chronic stupidity of the "politically correct"



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlineNAV20 From Australia, joined Nov 2003, 9909 posts, RR: 36
Reply 54, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1322 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 6):
My beef is with the police, they could have made up for their incompetence by shooting him instead of arresting him.

Years back, I 'did time' as a National Serviceman on the border between West and East Germany. 'They' - whether Russians or East Germans - several times took 'potshots' at us, in our artillery observation posts. But either they'd never been taught to shoot, or they didn't know how - anyway, they never hit any of us.

Trouble was, though, we were forbidden to shoot back unless we were 'authorised' by an officer. And our junior officers (mostly 'Nashos' themselves) were 'reluctant' to give any such order - in fact, they never did........

On just one occasion, though, our battery commander, a regular, was visiting our OP - and the 'other lot' fired a full burst of light machinegun fire at us. When I got my head up again, I could clearly see one of them, head and shoulders above the trench parapet, in East German uniform, looking at us through glasses. I asked for permission to fire, and - for the only time ever - actually got it.

It took a while to set the sights and work the bolt, of course - but the guy was still clearly in view when I'd finished all that. In the end, though, I didn't fire, and he very soon ducked out of sight.........

Confirms my view that I don't think I'd ever have summoned the guts actually, directly, to kill someone unless my own life was clearly in danger. Artillery was different, of course - they used to call us 'the six-mile snipers,' we'd cheerfully have piled any number of shells into their positions. But shooting (or at least trying to shoot) a guy who was very clearly not shooting back, just looking at us through glasses, turned out to be beyond me.........

So, much as I'd like to blow Breivik's brains out for the awful things he did, I have to confess that (on available evidence) doing any such thing, in cold blood, is beyond me. In my view, we just have to hope that the Norwegian justice and prison system finds a way to keep the bastard 'out of circulation' for the rest of his life..........

I still sort of half-hope that someone more 'realistic' than me 'accidentally' kills him. But that's not a very honest viewpoint - knowing that, on past evidence, I just wouldn't have the guts to do it myself..........

[Edited 2012-04-18 08:02:43]


"Once you have flown, you will walk the earth with your eyes turned skywards.." - Leonardo da Vinci
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7037 posts, RR: 3
Reply 55, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 1296 times:

Quoting stratosphere (Reply 51):
If you ever read the book by Frank Abingnale "Catch me if you Can" a movie staring Leonardo DeCaprio was made highlighting the book.

That was a really good book, although he was pretty full of himself.

Quoting N1120A (Reply 52):

They can both renew the sentence and use this "containment" status to keep him in.

They can add blocks of 5 years to his sentance, however I doubt they will.

Quoting NAV20 (Reply 54):
In my view, we just have to hope that the Norwegian justice and prison system finds a way to keep the bastard 'out of circulation' for the rest of his life..........

If the prison system thinks he's be rehabilitated he could very well get out before his 21 years are up. Norway had a prolific serial killer who operated in the late 70's before being caught in 81. Nesset was convicted of 22 murders, all up he was suspected of murdering 138 people, he was sentenced to 21 years plus containment of 10 years, he was released after 12 years for good behaviour. The Norwegian justice system is all about rehabilitating the criminal, they couldn't give a crap about the victims, there is very little doubt in my mind that Brevik will be on the streets before his 21 years are served.


User currently offlineN1120A From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 26338 posts, RR: 76
Reply 56, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 1254 times:

Quoting stealthz (Reply 53):
But will they??

Probably.

Quoting stealthz (Reply 53):
You underestimate the chronic stupidity of the "politically correct"

The politically correct thing to do here is to hang first, ask questions later. Its hard for people to get the idea of due process for disgusting terrorists like this guy.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 55):
They can add blocks of 5 years to his sentance, however I doubt they will.

I'm thinking they do.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 55):
The Norwegian justice system is all about rehabilitating the criminal, they couldn't give a crap about the victims

Vengence is not the point of justice.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 55):
there is very little doubt in my mind that Brevik will be on the streets before his 21 years are served.

I wouldn't be so sure.



Mangeons les French fries, mais surtout pratiquons avec fierte le French kiss
User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3369 posts, RR: 2
Reply 57, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1180 times:

It was reported today that in 2006, Breivik took a year off to play World of Warcraft for 16 hours a day to train for his 'mission' and that he wanted to kill all 500 people on Utøya. He also wanted to behead a former Labor Party official who was on the island earlier in the day (I assume he meant former PM Gro Haarlem Brundtland).


"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7037 posts, RR: 3
Reply 58, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1167 times:

Quoting N1120A (Reply 56):
I wouldn't be so sure.

I would, Norway let out of prison a serial killer convicted of 22 murders after 12 years of a 21 year sentence, this guy was suspected of killing 138 people, far more than ABB. Justice in Norway is all about keeping as few a number of people as possible in prison, hence the reason why the state wanted him declared insane, if the panel of shrinks had found him insane the state could have put him in an institution. The Norwegian state loves putting criminals in mental institutions, it makes the prison population a lot smaller than it really should be.


User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2838 posts, RR: 12
Reply 59, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1147 times:

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 57):
It was reported today that in 2006, Breivik took a year off to play World of Warcraft for 16 hours a day to train for his 'mission' and that he wanted to kill all 500 people on Utøya. He also wanted to behead a former Labor Party official who was on the island earlier in the day (I assume he meant former PM Gro Haarlem Brundtland).

I understand you don't want to give him any more publicity than he's already getting, but there are some interesting bits from his Manifesto related to this.

For instance:

"Long term covers:
Say you play WoW (World of Warcraft) or another MMO and have developed an addiction for it. Say that are going to play hardcore for the rest of the year and it is no point trying to convince you otherwise. Inform them that you will be busy doing that in the future etc. Tell them that you are ashamed of it and you don’t want to talk any more about it.


and

"A couple of my friends have their suspicions though. However, I have managed to channel these suspicions far away from relating to my political convictions. Instead they suspect that I am playing WoW (and trying to hide it) and a couple of them believe that I have chosen semi-isolation because of some alleged homosexual relationship which they suspect I am trying to hide, LOL. Quite hilarious, as I am 100% hetero, but they may continue to believe what they want as it prevents them from asking more questions )"

There are just as many other things you could point to in that document on a number of other topics. He did write well over 1,500 pages of rambling nonsense.



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlineCXfirst From Norway, joined Jan 2007, 3020 posts, RR: 1
Reply 60, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 1085 times:

Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 57):
It was reported today that in 2006, Breivik took a year off to play World of Warcraft for 16 hours a day to train for his 'mission' and that he wanted to kill all 500 people on Utøya. He also wanted to behead a former Labor Party official who was on the island earlier in the day (I assume he meant former PM Gro Haarlem Brundtland).

Yes, he said that his plan was to set off the bomb at 10am, and be on the island at 11am, but got delayed. He also stated that at first he wanted to use a bomb on Utoeya, as that would have killed more (no ability to run away), but decided on shooting as it seemed simpler and gave out a stronger message.

His initial plan was 3 bombs and a shooting, the current bomb place, Aftenposten (newspaper and because NRK wasn't georgraphically suitable) and the palace, but without hurting the royal family. As well as a shooting at a reporters convention, but due to delay, he missed the March event date, and chose Utoeya.

The fact that he explains all this so objectively, with seemingly no emotion, is the scariest. From seeing him, I wouldn't be surprised that if he for some reason got to leave today, he would do his acts again without second thought.

-CXfirst



From Norway, live in Australia
User currently offlinebjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 3369 posts, RR: 2
Reply 61, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1007 times:

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 60):

Asked how he [Breivik] was able to talk about the atrocities in such an impassive manner, Breivik said he had learnt to rely on "technical, de-emotionalised language" — "if I was going to use normalised language it would not have been possible" to go through police interviews and "this trial", he added. "People say, 'he must be a monster, he cannot be from this planet, he must have no emotions and empathy left', but this has to do with preparing and training."



"I want to know the voice of God the rest is just details" --A. Einstein
User currently offlineKPDX From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2718 posts, RR: 2
Reply 62, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 970 times:

Breivik told how he shot young people who were paralyzed and could not run away in the head.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/20/world/...breivik-trial/index.html?hpt=hp_t3


I feel sick.



View my aviation videos on Youtube by searching for zildjiandrummr12
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8780 posts, RR: 24
Reply 63, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 965 times:

Quoting KPDX (Reply 62):
Breivik told how he shot young people who were paralyzed and could not run away in the head.

The more that comes out, the more I wonder how certain people take it. He is clearly not insane. His reasoning and understanding of society's laws appears completely intact. It's just that he doesn't give a crap. Completely in command of his faculties, but incapable of empathy, sympathy or shame. I don't consider it a mental illness. I think what we are seeing here is someone who is simply evil.

You hear every so often the opinion that there are no evil people - but that people are victims of their environment, or are "sick" and in need of medical help. I call BS.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently onlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13005 posts, RR: 12
Reply 64, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 933 times:

From what we are hearing so far, Breivik is just a sad and pathetic person, he definitely has some serious mental health and psychological problems. He apparently had few if any friends, not much for family, probably has very poor social development.

I am very interested as to what led him to this direction in his life. He seems to have some psychopath symptoms as well as feelings of persecution, wanting to do a big act or series of acts to get revenge and attention, seeing himself as a savior, accepting that killing so may innocents will cause support for his view. He is like a number of mass murders, from Timothy McVeigh, to Columbine, Dunblane, Tasmania, France, the leaders of the Nazi Holocaust/'final solution' and of course those involved with 9/11. May are frustrated, often 'losers' economically and socially, get involve in extreme and almost cult like beliefs that make them feel powerful.

From all of the mass murders we have see, including Breivik, we need to study them thoroughly and somehow figure out what caused him to end up to his obscene act. We need to determine who is likely to become a mass murders, what factors may lead to them to such acts and prevent others from going in that direction. In our world of much greater day to day isolation, less neighborhood and community, fewer accepting religion, growing selfishness, more consumerism, narrower worldviews, which also make some persons end up as a mass murders. Perhaps in further testimony from this trial we can gain a slight bit more of reaching that understanding as what we as individuals and as a society can do.


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13942 posts, RR: 63
Reply 65, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 920 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 64):

I am very interested as to what led him to this direction in his life. He seems to have some psychopath symptoms as well as feelings of persecution, wanting to do a big act or series of acts to get revenge and attention, seeing himself as a savior, accepting that killing so may innocents will cause support for his view. He is like a number of mass murders, from Timothy McVeigh, to Columbine, Dunblane, Tasmania, France, the leaders of the Nazi Holocaust/'final solution' and of course those involved with 9/11. May are frustrated, often 'losers' economically and socially, get involve in extreme and almost cult like beliefs that make them feel powerful.

It seems that he came from a rather wealthy neighbourhood and should have had good prospects if not for dropping out of highschool as a teenager due to pure laziness, but attributed to be the fault of others. His former peer are apparently all wellpaid management positions, while he got stuck with grandiose business plans, which consisted mainly of borrowing money from his mother and then wasting it on some harebrained ideas, which was again somebody else´s fault. He is a pathetic prick.
In a way he reminds me of Vladimir Iliych Sanchez, aka Carlos the Jackal, another narcist. Both were too full of themselves, and for "Carlos" the biggest punishment was not the life term in a very harsh French high security nick, but to be refused any special treatment as "POW" or political prisoner, but to be locked up with bog-standard criminals.

Jan


User currently offlineYVRLTN From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 2435 posts, RR: 0
Reply 66, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 900 times:

Various items I have picked up from news items the last couple of days through the trial

- He would not hesitate to do the same again
- He is disappointed he did not kill more
- We wants either to be set free or put to death - no prison term

Theres no way this man can ever go out on the street again, some way needs to be found that he is imprisoned for the rest of his worthless life. If it requires a special bill passed through parliament to do so, then so be it - this is an exceptional case, who is going to repatriate this bonzo?



Follow me on twitter for YVR movements @vernonYVR
User currently offlineCXfirst From Norway, joined Jan 2007, 3020 posts, RR: 1
Reply 67, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 892 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 63):
The more that comes out, the more I wonder how certain people take it. He is clearly not insane. His reasoning and understanding of society's laws appears completely intact. It's just that he doesn't give a crap. Completely in command of his faculties, but incapable of empathy, sympathy or shame. I don't consider it a mental illness. I think what we are seeing here is someone who is simply evil.

I agree, but I'm no expert, so I'm interested in how the experts will see it.

Although, I'm almost hoping that he'll be found insane. Not because I believe it, but it is the biggest insult to him. He'll go to prison believing he did the right thing and feeling like a hero. He does not want to be labeled insane and therefore his message insane. This is what he'll see as the worst punishment. This is quite evident as his main goal in the trial is to prove he is not insane and he should be tried fully for his actions.

-CXfirst



From Norway, live in Australia
User currently offlineMika From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 2847 posts, RR: 4
Reply 68, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 841 times:

Quoting CXfirst (Reply 67):
Although, I'm almost hoping that he'll be found insane. Not because I believe it, but it is the biggest insult to him. He'll go to prison believing he did the right thing and feeling like a hero. He does not want to be labeled insane and therefore his message insane. This is what he'll see as the worst punishment. This is quite evident as his main goal in the trial is to prove he is not insane and he should be tried fully for his actions.

Ageed. Out of the options available through the Norwegian judiciary system this certainly seems like the one he should get. Right now he's playing media and the court just like he wants to do, all attention is on him and he can act out everything he wishes to. I say let him have that, and then throw him in the looney bin.


User currently offlineMika From Sweden, joined Jul 2000, 2847 posts, RR: 4
Reply 69, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 836 times:

Also, i am personally almost certain that one of the strongest underlying factors in all of his actions and mindset is his broken relationship with his father.It wouldn't surprise me at all if his dad left the him and his mother for another woman from another culture, possibly with a muslim background. I think he has been using his hatred for muslims as a substitute for his own broken family (as he sees it) and the reasons behind it. My two cents.

User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7037 posts, RR: 3
Reply 70, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 823 times:

Quoting Mika (Reply 69):
It wouldn't surprise me at all if his dad left the him and his mother for another woman from another culture, possibly with a muslim background.

His father has been married 4 times, Anders was from his second marriage, he's been living in France since he retired from the Norwegian Foreign Service.


User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3806 posts, RR: 1
Reply 71, posted (2 years 2 months 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 800 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 58):
I would, Norway let out of prison a serial killer convicted of 22 murders after 12 years of a 21 year sentence, this guy was suspected of killing 138 people, far more than ABB. Justice in Norway is all about keeping as few a number of people as possible in prison, hence the reason why the state wanted him declared insane, if the panel of shrinks had found him insane the state could have put him in an institution. The Norwegian state loves putting criminals in mental institutions, it makes the prison population a lot smaller than it really should be.

I beleave that back then it was up to the prisons to decide when it was time to let go of the prisoner. This has been changed and it is these days ajudge that decides wether the grounds for releasing a person is good enough or wether to keep the person in continued containment


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