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I've Noticed A Change...  
User currently offlineAirlinelover From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 5580 posts, RR: 23
Posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2807 times:

I was in here, browsing the forums, and I finally decided to open the first "why not believe in god" thread.. This was last nite, when it had about 230-240 replies.. I started by thinking.. HOPING.. that it wasn't gonna turn bad the more that I read in it.. Well..

I just wanted to say I have noticed a change in a lot of ppl here on the forums, and I must say it is for the better. That thread, while it may have had the potential to become a huge flamewar, didn't. I actually learned some stuff there that I didn't know, which was a NICE surprise.. So I just wanted to let everyone know that.. Posts like that, with THAT MANY REPLIES, and no real flaming going on, is the kind of thing that makes me proud to be a member and moderator on this site  Smile

Way to go everyone  Big thumbs up

Chris



Lets do some sexy math. We add you, subtract your clothes, divide your legs and multiply
75 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEric505 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 592 posts, RR: 4
Reply 1, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2664 times:


I agree with you, I think its starting to get better.



Alcohol is the anesthesia by which we endure the operation of life
User currently offlineAWspicious From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2657 times:

That's because I haven't responded to it, yet.  Laugh out loud
There are certain topics I try to stay away from, and, religion is one of them. Many wars were waged with religion playing a role in some form or another, so, I know better than to go there.

aw


User currently offlineKROC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2654 times:

I've noticed a change too. A complete intolerance by way too many people, on other peoples opinions. Only one Israel/Palestine thread at once? Never mind if someone has a totally different take to present. Somebody doesn't agree with something and they are all over the suggest delete button. Moderators working not on one set standard, but for the most part, their interpretation of said "standard". Tell me these are not problems. Tell me that the fact that there has to be a limit on "active" threads on a topic speaks well for the users and the site. These are pressing issues, and I KNOW I am not the only one who feels like this. It's great that the God thread went the way it did, but for every thread that goes like that, there are several others that all fall into the things I described above. These are great forums with great people...as long as everyone is allowed to have their opinions and discuss them freely without lighting fuses..........

User currently onlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21412 posts, RR: 54
Reply 4, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2646 times:

I guess it may be because that massive black hole "Palestine vs. Israel" is swallowing all the fire and the flamers around...  Wink/being sarcastic

User currently offline174thfwff From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2622 times:

These issues might be non-existent if we all worked in the same room. However this is not the case Kroc, and many of us have never talked at all. I only know of two other moderators besides myself, and only one I talk to often. That makes it hard to come up with one standard. Johan rely trusts us so much that contact with us is very little. Only very important issues he chimes in on. I have tried to set up a list of email, aim, icq #'s, etc. that would resolve this problem, but only 2 people replied. I hope you can see why the standards are different for a lot of us. I do however include in the delete post message why I deleted the message and include my personal email address for people to ask me questions or calmly ask why their thread was deleted.

Here's my willingness to help all of you...
IF anyone has any questions please feel free to email me about anything that's about these messageboards or general questions. My email can be found in my profile.

-174thfwff


User currently offlineHepkat From Austria, joined Aug 2000, 2341 posts, RR: 2
Reply 6, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2615 times:

KROC, it's impossible to have one standard. Even in the real world no two courts will arrive at the same decision for the same case. Until the day comes when we all think alike, see things the same way, have the exact same experiences and all come from the same backgrounds, we will never all make the same decisions, even when given the same guidelines.

However, there ARE ways to reduce discrepancies and achieve a more unifying view, and that is by discussing and criticizing each decision each mod makes. Our decisions are all transparent, meaning, we all know about the actions of each other. This in itself reduces the liklihood of a one-man dictatorship. If there's a decision made by one mod that another doesn't agree with, he will bring it up and we will have a discussion about it. In the end, we ALL learn from each discussion, which leaves us with a more unified view and approach to doing things.


User currently offlineHepkat From Austria, joined Aug 2000, 2341 posts, RR: 2
Reply 7, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2603 times:

By the way, I forgot to mention that one way we could further reduce misunderstandings is to remain approachable, so I'm going to follow in 174thwff's example by inviting anyone with questions/issues/concerns to please email me at hepkat_2@yahoo.com, and I will also make a greater effort to hang out in the chat forum.

User currently offlineKROC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2604 times:

174thwff:

I understand completely where you are coming from. I understand that the moderators cannot all work together all the time. What I am saying though, is that there is not one set of guidelines that has been set up for all the moderators. A comprehensive list of things to follow, will take out much of the "personal feeling" element. I am not actually trying to criticize you, or any other moderator with this, as I am trying to put forth very valid points. 174th, I respect you as much as anyone, because you include your email name and a REAL reason why you have deleted a post or thread. I am sorry that you have had very little responses in setting something up to talk with other mods, which leads me to this. In my past battles with Hepkat, he frequently referred to "talking with the other mods". That leads me to believe that cliques have formed in the moderator group. Whatever, but that just adds to the chaos when posts get deleted. As a basic plain old user, we honestly can get confused when one mod will see no problem with a post, yet the next mod sees it as nothing but pure evil. I also understand that Johan has and has to put his trust in you guys, and 174th, I feel you and a few others have not disappointed, but their are others, and I have email proof that I am not the only one who has this view, that other moderators are being not exactly right down the middle on things. I am accusing nobody, and not saying names. All I am saying is what a general consensus is feeling.

The fact that you go out of your way 174th is a testament to you. And you do it all without getting a power trip or taking the moderator thing way to seriously. Johan needs to look at your example, and run the basis for moderators off of that.


User currently offlineKROC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2610 times:

Hepkat. Everyone needs to stop thinking I am "Moderator Hating". I know it is impossible to have one set standard that is followed to the tee everytime. Things will always come up, that require a personal touch so to speak. What I am saying though, is that having a set standard that the moderators follow as closely as possible will help reduce the "one mod lets the thread go because he sees nothing wrong with it, but the second moderator thinks its flamebait and deletes it". Right now, its safe to say, that the moderators are all operating more or less on their own terms. If that is what Johan is calling for, then fine, but it should be known. In the interests of fairness and understanding, the moderators should be as close as possible to being on the same page. Everyone is different, BUT, something has to be done about the large discrepancy gaps in moderating. Not because I personally think so, but because users of the forum need to have at least a fairly clear idea of what to expect from the moderators.

User currently offlineHepkat From Austria, joined Aug 2000, 2341 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2586 times:

KROC, Johan HAS given us guidelines on what is acceptable and what is not. But even these are always within context and are subject to interpretation. For example, let's look at swearing. He has instructed us that swearing is generally not to be tolerated, but this all depends on how a swear word is used, how often and the context. If a user presents a clear, well thought out argument that includes a swear word for emphasis, then this cannot be considered inappropriate. But when the thread breaks down into petty bickering which includes "useless" swearing, then in my opinion, that should be deleted. But this is all subjective, as you cannot say with any measure of concreteness that swear words are ALWAYS to be deleted. See what I mean? Even when given clear guidelines, you still have to be subjective, and this is where our personalities will come in.

But as I said, we DO have a system of checks and balances. We review every other mod's decisions, and we do have discussions. Beyond that, there's really not much more we can do.


User currently offlineDash8King From Canada, joined Nov 2001, 2742 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2573 times:

I agree with Kroc that there needs to be guide to follow. You say that there are guidelines to follow but sometime it doesn't seem so. Some post which may be taken wrong by one Mod are usually not offensive to many other users.

User currently offlineDash8King From Canada, joined Nov 2001, 2742 posts, RR: 11
Reply 12, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2571 times:

Man everything is gettind deleted! It's like living in Israel.

User currently offlineMcringring From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 13, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2567 times:

I agree with everything the moderators are saying.

User currently offlineKROC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2565 times:

Hepkat, with all due respect, let me break this down.

KROC, Johan HAS given us guidelines on what is acceptable and what is not. But even these are always within context and are subject to interpretation

If this is true, then why are they not being followed? If they were, the drastic difference in moderating would not be as great as it is right now.

Even when given clear guidelines, you still have to be subjective, and this is where our personalities will come in.

Great. "Personalities". Let's see, I can add a little interpolation into this...BAM, I don't like it, its gone. In essence, this would not be as dramatic as I suggested IF the moderating guidelines were being followed by all moderators.

But as I said, we DO have a system of checks and balances. We review every other mod's decisions, and we do have discussions. Beyond that, there's really not much more we can do.

I don't buy this for a second. Who is "we"? It is already clear that 174thfwff had tried to get in contact with as many moderators as possible and got a WOPPING 2 responded. This is why I said there are "cliques" in the moderating group. If you only discuss with those that see things your way, then nothing will ever be worked out. With a solid guideline set and being followed, a "checks and balances" system should not be needed.


User currently offlineHepkat From Austria, joined Aug 2000, 2341 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2560 times:

KROC, I believe you need to reread my prior post. In it I've already explained much of what you just brought up.

don't buy this for a second. Who is "we"? It is already clear that 174thfwff had tried to get in contact with as many moderators as possible and got a WOPPING 2 responded. This is why I said there are "cliques" in the moderating group. If you only discuss with those that see things your way, then nothing will ever be worked out. With a solid guideline set and being followed, a "checks and balances" system should not be needed.

What 174thfwff was referring to was contacing mods privately. We all receive every post or user deletions and every email that's sent to the forum administrators email. When we have a discussion pertaining to A.Net, we all receive these emails (we belong to a maillist). However, there's nothing stopping us from contacting each other privately, and that's what 174thfwff tried to do without much success. You have to realise that we're on different time zones, and many, if not most of us have to work. When we have our A.Net discussions however, we all receive these emails and notices in our inbox, so there's no way to avoid them.


User currently offlineApathoid From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 16, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 4 days ago) and read 2537 times:

Sure am glad KROC chimed in on this one. Isn't it great to have him back????

maybe someone will read this before it gets deleted  Smile/happy/getting dizzy


User currently offlineKROC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 4 days ago) and read 2529 times:

Apathoid. I sure am glad you took the time to add that insightful comment to the thread. As always you are a big part of this forums success.  Yeah sure

User currently offlineKROC From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 4 days ago) and read 2528 times:

When we have a discussion pertaining to A.Net, we all receive these emails (we belong to a maillist). However, there's nothing stopping us from contacting each other privately, and that's what 174thfwff tried to do without much success. You have to realise that we're on different time zones, and many, if not most of us have to work. When we have our A.Net discussions however, we all receive these emails and notices in our inbox, so there's no way to avoid them.

Hepkat, first off, maybe we should both be re-reading, but I am just bringing up challenges to things you call discussions and checks and balances. Also, as far as checks and balances go, belonging to an email list does not constitute as a discussion. Especially as you said, you are all on different time zones. I doubt you all discuss the deletion posts in your mailing list. At least to the point where you say you all "discuss" things. You call it what you want, and I accept that, but I will call it what I want, and until I see what I feel is real proof of a so called check and balance system, I will continue to believe otherwise.


User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 19, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 4 days ago) and read 2520 times:

KROC, Johan HAS given us guidelines on what is acceptable and what is not. But even these are always within context and are subject to interpretation.

Yes, and here are a few of the exceptions.

1. Don't call Yassir Arafat a "dirtbag". It may upset the wide-eyed Palestinian apologists on here. Oh, but it's quite all right to call another memeber a fascist.

2. Don't mention about murdering Palestinian families on here (and again, note I was totally against this suggestion by TNNH). Don't worry about justifying the murders of Israelis, as the THI gang does on here, but the other way around? Not acceptable.


User currently offlineAlpha 1 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 4 days ago) and read 2514 times:

Oh, yes, I just thought of another exception:

1. Don't entitle a thread about Saudi Arabia as "The Truth About Saudi Arabia". Even though it does not break any forum rules, it's not acceptable. I was told by the anonymous mod that had it said "The Truth About The Saudi Government", it would have been acceptable.

And you don't see double standards here, Hepkat, baby?  Smile


User currently offline174thfwff From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 21, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 2501 times:

Well Guys,
thanks for appreciating the way I handle things. I try my best.

We really don't have checks and balances IMHO. Unless one moderator goes to far out of line, nothing is done internally at all to try and correct a wrong unless it is, like I said, a very big goof. When it is something VERY important then Johan comes in to talk to us: I.E. ILS...

I don't want to cause a ruckus within the moderators, so I will stop here. But I do have to say one more thing. We are all trying very hard and I know you all know that, however I just want to say it again.

Check ya on the flip side,
-174thfwff


User currently offlineAirlinelover From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 5580 posts, RR: 23
Reply 22, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2484 times:

To add to 174th's post, what I do if I am unsure, I have a lot of the mods on my IM programs.. so I just IM one or more of them.. Or I email the lot of them and wait to see.. that seems to work well too, as I see others doing it as well..

Chris



Lets do some sexy math. We add you, subtract your clothes, divide your legs and multiply
User currently offlineTurbineBeaver From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 1199 posts, RR: 0
Reply 23, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2485 times:

...Ok, now can someone please point me to a thread where Apathoid has made a useful comment? The only posts of his that I have seen are of him ranting along about how he dislikes so and so user, or whatever. He never chimes in with suggests or comments, just to be an annoyance, eh? Good work Apathoid.  Yeah sure

I think AirlineLover has a point, these forums have come a long way, in ups and downs, but we have a LONG way to go. At the risk of getting flamed, I like to correlate it to the stock market, we started out small, grew and things got bigger and better, but then an instability hit, and the quality slumped, then in came the moderators, working to improve things, and clean things up, it gets better, but we all realize, these moderators are all mortal, and can't have the same standards due to the fact that they aren't exactly...trained at the "institue for A.net moderating" and they are running off their own judgement, not a "problem" but more of an "issue" in the growing pains of installing moderators, and figuring out how to effectively and efficiently use them. So, I think we have come along way, but we still have plenty of room for growth/change. Moderators, good work, I commend you, but I think you realize how frustrating it can be for some of us to have to face the...dare I say....doubl.....errr....inconsistency among each moderator's judgement. It's just something to improve on!

Cheers,
TB

*errr...I guess that stock market was a pretty shoddy example...bare with me.


User currently offlineAirlinelover From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 5580 posts, RR: 23
Reply 24, posted (12 years 1 month 1 week 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2476 times:

SELL SELL SELL!!!!!!!  Smile

TB- I actually do understand that referance.. It is a good one, and it is one that actually makes a lot of sense..  Smile Hope that may help some ppl understand..

Chris



Lets do some sexy math. We add you, subtract your clothes, divide your legs and multiply
25 Hepkat : I doubt you all discuss the deletion posts in your mailing list. At least to the point where you say you all "discuss" things. You call it what you wa
26 Alpha 1 : Alpha..., baby, whenever you have a deleted post, it's always best for you to discuss it with the moderator that deleted it. Gee, Hepkat, I'd love to,
27 Post contains images KROC : Although I welcome criticism, I sincerely doubt any of you could perform this task any better given the constraints we have to work with. I severely b
28 Hepkat : Alpha:Gee, Hepkat, I'd love to, but when they're too chicken-shit to leave their name behind, it makes it kind of diffucult. KROC:Anyway, emailing the
29 Post contains images Mcringring : unless the post is something like a moron posting a picture of some guy with his cack hanging out of his shorts pissing No KROCTarasco, I think that w
30 Post contains images KROC : Thanks McringBurnitz. I should have known that one. Hepkat, you are tired of repeating yourself, only because you seem to skirt the issues presented.
31 Post contains images Alpha 1 : The decision to remove the mod's individual name was voted on collectively and implemented by Johan. Then it makes it a little difficult to discuss it
32 Post contains images Airlinelover : Alpha 1... If you are Darth Vader- does that make us Jedi? .... Just curious.. Chris
33 Alpha 1 : Alpha 1... If you are Darth Vader- does that make us Jedi? No, more like the Ewoks, I think.
34 Post contains images N751PR : I have a feeling that this post will also have more than 200 replies . And this now seems like the "why not believe in god" with the corrections and
35 Hepkat : KROC:You have no idea what that refers too? It wasn't but a couple of hours ago, you used that line in a "personal message" to someone who you deleted
36 Post contains images KROC : For example, this morning when I got up, there were over 20 delete suggestions, quite a few having to do with you and Alpha. Some users wanted you bot
37 Post contains images L-188 : Well I for one am glad to see that this topic has denegrated to normal..... It was nice while it lasted. Give it about another month. These things are
38 Post contains images Klaus : KROC: Hepkat, have you looked at how 60% of the users on this site present their opinions? They make Alpha and me look like pre-schoolers. Sixty perce
39 Flyboy36y : I don't harbor resentment against the mods. I am upset about some things. I made a joke that was a parody of 9/11. Not making fun of 9/11 but just a p
40 Flyboy36y : Oh, by the way. For this rule (only on I v P thread at a time), can we have that for soccer too?
41 KROC : Sixty percent? Well, I must have missed those sixty percent so far... Klaus. I just yanked that number down in the heat of typing. If you go into thre
42 Hepkat : Why should users call for us to be banned outright, when we are civilly discussing issues? This is not a question I can really answer. My feeling is t
43 Hepkat : I've searched through all my email messages, and I still cannot find the offending phrases, or even fragments thereof. The last thing I'd want to do i
44 KROC : This is not a question I can really answer. My feeling is that you guys piss off a lot of people by the way you answer/write posts. Since when is pres
45 Post contains images Klaus : KROC: Klaus. I just yanked that number down in the heat of typing. If you go into threads where points are being argued and debated, you will actually
46 Post contains images EGGD : Sure you noticed a change?
47 Hepkat : So now we're finally getting somewhere. KROC:When I told you to post the whole thing if you were going to use it, you said, and I quote "I decide what
48 174thfwff : Guys, This conversation, although with two very different opinions, was kept very civil through out this entire thread. I know this is going to sound
49 KROC : Hepkat, you continue to SKIRT the issue. I am VERY EXTREMELY OFFENDED that you would decided to take part of MY PERSONAL CORRESPONDANCE with YOU and m
50 L-188 : Yup....we are definatly back to normal.
51 Post contains images Alpha 1 : It is true that every mod has their own take on life and personal opinions. But if they let that infringe on moderating this forum, they're doing a di
52 Hepkat : Hepkat, you continue to SKIRT the issue. I am VERY EXTREMELY OFFENDED that you would decided to take part of MY PERSONAL CORRESPONDANCE with YOU and m
53 Klaus : Alpha 1: Of course you missed it, Klaus, since your in the group! I´ve noticed that you find my insistence on you providing some factual evidence off
54 KROC : I posted two or three sentences at most, and only to show how much you did not care about following forum rules. I don't remember exactly the wording
55 Post contains images Saloth Sar : I agree with Airlinerlover that this forum has gotten much better and more civil. Unfortunately, there are always going to be malcontents, but that's
56 Hepkat : KROC, you go on to ramble about this great wrong I did you but later go on to admit that you were mistaken to say what you did. What more do you want
57 KROC : Hepkat, so posting part of an email (which is my grievence) that was sent in a private and personal matter is not wrong? Sorry, you are wrong there. S
58 Hepkat : I've already explained my reasoning concerning your disconcerting email to me after your ban. I really hesitate to take seriously anyone who said to m
59 KROC : As usual, my email address is always available at your disposal. Funny, I suggested that about 15 posts ago. As for the "blatent lies". Hey, to each h
60 Saloth Sar : I've long noticed your wont to attract attention to yourself and can't help but wonder if this is simply another cunning drama that I've falling into
61 Post contains images KROC : Quite plausible, indeed. Yeah, and having a minimum of 3 user names to continue to post on here is not a reason to attract attention either right GDub
62 Post contains images Saloth Sar : Michael, I won't argue with you here. There's an alternative site for that. Peace over here...
63 Post contains images Delta-flyer : I would like to remind all the combatants here that this is a private website, and we are all privileged to participate but only as long as we adhere
64 Saloth Sar : Delta-flyer, You hit the nail right on the head. Regards...
65 KROC : Pete, leave the mods alone? So if they are doing things wrong, just let them? Issues have been raised to Johan, but much to often the emails go unswer
66 KROC : Oh and "agreeing" Saloth, you have had more user names and been deleted more than everyone but ILS. Stop knob polishing just because you want to post
67 Delta-flyer : Pete, leave the mods alone? So if they are doing things wrong, just let them? Not exactly, I also added....."But if you think they are not doing their
68 KROC : I understand that Pete, and I added that many times the emails to their boss go unanswered.
69 Hepkat : Pete, I agree with you wholeheartedly. That was a perfect summary of the bottom line, especially: But if a certain individual is deleted frequently, p
70 Alpha 1 : But if a certain individual is deleted frequently, particularly by many different moderators, one would evetually surmise that perhaps that individual
71 KROC : I really hope KROC & Co. read and understood these lines. We'd all have to be in perfect agreement all the time in order to institute and perpetuate a
72 KROC : Hey Hepkat. Any insight on why the thread you told us to create (the Mcringring inuendo thread) was deleted? There was nothing that broke a rule in th
73 Mcringring : What a joke.
74 Ihadapheo : Hello all, I just thought I'd chime in with a slightly different perspective on the whole mod thing. KROC, Mcringring, Alpha 1 let me say I do agree w
75 Airlinelover : Ok guys.. I'm sick of the way this thread turned out.. With certain ppl not seeming to see that this thread was NOT a thread to argue in, but a thread
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