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London Flats To Be Turned Into SAM Missile Sites  
User currently onlineCrimsonNL From Netherlands, joined Dec 2007, 1838 posts, RR: 42
Posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 2961 times:
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17884897

Couldn't believe my eyes when I read this, IMO an utterly crazy, ridiculous and dangerous idea! My knowledge of SAM missiles is limited, but one would think this could pose a risk to "Friendly" air traffic over the London area as well, as no civil planes are identified by an IFF (Identify Friend of Foe) transponder.

Personally I think this is just an overreaction to the ever present threat of terror, and will only give people a false sense of safety. I can hardly believe that any sane person would support this.

What are your thoughts?

Martijn


Fly DC-Jets!
89 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13946 posts, RR: 63
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2941 times:

After a nutter crashed a microlight on the lawn outside the Reichstag (Germany´s parliament building in Berlin) after he had killed his wife, politicians demanded to basing of SAMs around Berlin´s government quarter. A Bundeswehr general had to explain to them that anything fired into the air will eventually come down again, even if it doesn´t hit a target and that it wouldn´t be a good idea to launch Hawk missiles in the middle of a big city. He also pointed out that shooting down an aircraft, just to have it crash into a residential area would not be a good idea.
The demand was quietly binned.
In any case, it was embarrasing to see how far some politicians would go to risk the lives of the population to save their own skin.

Jan


User currently offlinedazbo5 From United Kingdom, joined Mar 2005, 2863 posts, RR: 2
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2934 times:

Quoting CrimsonNL (Thread starter):
What are your thoughts?


Exactly the same as yours! If they put them on the top of residential flats, I would have thought that then makes those flats, and therefore their residents a potential terrorist target too. I wouldn't be best pleased if that was where I lived. Even with SAM's 'protecting' the sky over London, are they really going to shoot down an aircraft over a densely populated area? I know an aircraft flying in to a stadium or other building is going to do untold damage and doesn't bear thinking about, but imagine the loss of life on the ground with aircraft debris and aviation fuel coming down on top. I can understand using them as a deterrent, but to publically announce their intention to put them on the top of residential flats is crazy in my eyes. I'm sure there are non-residential buildings that can be used if it's a must but even then, it's a complete over-reaction.

Darren



Equipment: 2x Canon EOS 50D; Sigma 10-20 EX DC HSM, 50-500 EX APO DG, Canon 24-105 f/4 L, Speedlite 430EX
User currently offlineyfbflyer From Canada, joined Sep 2006, 298 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2934 times:

Just another crazy BS over reaction to some virtually non existent threat. How long has the UK had their terror threat as severe?

User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8780 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2921 times:

Who's the idiot who made it public? They should have installed the missiles if it was felt to be necessary, and shut up about it.

Quoting CrimsonNL (Thread starter):
My knowledge of SAM missiles is limited, but one would think this could pose a risk to "Friendly" air traffic over the London area as well, as no civil planes are identified by an IFF (Identify Friend of Foe) transponder.

Don't worry about it. SAM missiles have been around for over half a century, including close coverage of airports and cities, and have never been responsible for blowing civilian flights out of the sky.

It's pretty hard to imagine a terrorist scenario where those missiles might come into play, but I can think of a couple, as unlikely as they might be.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently onlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13946 posts, RR: 63
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2918 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Who's the idiot who made it public? They should have installed the missiles if it was felt to be necessary, and shut up about it.

This might be possible with a man portable weapon like a Stinger missile or a Blowpipe, but e.g. a Hawk missile battery in a park is bl**dy obvious.

Jan


User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5651 posts, RR: 20
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2914 times:

The 5th column on the ground in Londonistan which hates its nominal "home country" is far bigger threat to the Games than any potential airborne threat.



User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8780 posts, RR: 24
Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2896 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 5):

This might be possible with a man portable weapon like a Stinger missile or a Blowpipe, but e.g. a Hawk missile battery in a park is bl**dy obvious.

Pretty close. The Starstreak HVM is a little bigger than a Stinger, but a far cry from an old Hawk battery(which dates back to the 50s as I recall - does anyone still use Hawks?)

Note the range info in the article. This is a last-ditch point defence option, if, for example, terrorists fly an old 707 freighter filled with explosives and manage to evade air defences further away and want to crash it into a stadium filled with 100,000 people. Sure, a scenario that likely is confined to Hollywood, but the same was said about the tactics used on 9/11. The chances of this battery actually firing are probably 0.000000001%.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently onlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13946 posts, RR: 63
Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 2878 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
Note the range info in the article. This is a last-ditch point defence option, if, for example, terrorists fly an old 707 freighter filled with explosives and manage to evade air defences further away and want to crash it into a stadium filled with 100,000 people. Sure, a scenario that likely is confined to Hollywood, but the same was said about the tactics used on 9/11. The chances of this battery actually firing are probably 0.000000001%.

Then the 707 will crash right into the middle of a densily populated residential or business area. same results.
The only difference is that the politicians sitting in the stadium will get away.

You are correct, the Bundeswehr retired the system about 5 years ago. The British used to have the Rapier missiles, but I don´t know if they still use them.

Jan


User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 3911 posts, RR: 28
Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2870 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
SAM missiles have been around for over half a century, including close coverage of airports and cities, and have never been responsible for blowing civilian flights out of the sky.

I think a certain Iran Air A300 would disagrree with you... and in a more likely scenario of a small aircraft (e.g., a Cessna) flying around laden with explosives doubt a SAM would do much.



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlinegingersnap From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2010, 893 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2868 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 8):
You are correct, the Bundeswehr retired the system about 5 years ago. The British used to have the Rapier missiles, but I don´t know if they still use them.

Yes we will have the Rapier missiles in service until around 2020.



Flown on: A306 A319/20/21 A332 B732/3/4/5/7/8 B742/4 B752 B762/3 B772/W C152 E195 F70/100 MD-82 Q400
User currently offlineMortyman From Norway, joined Aug 2006, 3812 posts, RR: 1
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2857 times:

From what I understand, the Norwegian army deployed the NASAMS (Norwegian Advanced Surface to Air Missile System) missile system around Oslo, when US president Obama visited Oslo. Same system that guards the Whitehouse in Washington DC for some 11 years now ...:

NASAMS I

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASAMS

NASAMS II

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NASAMS_II


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8780 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2850 times:

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 8):
Then the 707 will crash right into the middle of a densily populated residential or business area. same results.

Are you sure? A plane crashing into a stadium - 50-100K dead. A plane crashing into a neighborhood is pretty horrific as well, but the population is more spread out - a few hundred dead. Sure it would be a Pyrrhic victory, but can you blame those in charge of Olympic security from at least giving themselves the option?



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offline1stfl94 From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 1455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2841 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 12):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 8):
Then the 707 will crash right into the middle of a densily populated residential or business area. same results.

Are you sure? A plane crashing into a stadium - 50-100K dead. A plane crashing into a neighborhood is pretty horrific as well, but the population is more spread out - a few hundred dead. Sure it would be a Pyrrhic victory, but can you blame those in charge of Olympic security from at least giving themselves the option?

Not something that will go down particularly with the local residents though!

On the other hand there could be an interesting legal argument if the building owners object to the government plans,


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19299 posts, RR: 58
Reply 14, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2797 times:

I wonder who they think might pull such an attack off?

Don't say "AQ." AQ is, for all intents and purposes, gone. So who else is big enough and well-organized enough to pull off an air attack on the Olympics?


User currently offlinebristolflyer From United Kingdom, joined May 2004, 2289 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2785 times:

Quoting yfbflyer (Reply 3):
Just another crazy BS over reaction to some virtually non existent threat.

Yeah cos there's never been any trouble at the Olympics, right? For your edification:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_massacre



Fortune favours the brave
User currently onlineCrimsonNL From Netherlands, joined Dec 2007, 1838 posts, RR: 42
Reply 16, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2781 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
CHAT OPERATOR

Quoting bristolflyer (Reply 15):
Yeah cos there's never been any trouble at the Olympics, right? For your edification:

Come on, you can't possibly use that as an argument! That happened 40 years ago!



Fly DC-Jets!
User currently onlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13946 posts, RR: 63
Reply 17, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 2778 times:

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 16):
Quoting bristolflyer (Reply 15):
Yeah cos there's never been any trouble at the Olympics, right? For your edification:

Come on, you can't possibly use that as an argument! That happened 40 years ago!

And even then you had the very experienced 22nd SAS, who wouldn´t have bungled the hostage rescue like the totally inept Bavarian state police did then. The event led to the founding of the GSG 9, which was trained mainly by instructors from the 22nd SAS.

Jan


User currently offlineDano1977 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Jun 2008, 481 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2748 times:

Instead of parking a missile team on a block of flats in London, why can't they park one of those new type 45 destroyers in the Thames estuary?

The navy keep bleating on about how good it is, with a powerful radar that can detect a flea leaving a dogs backside from 500miles away(OK not quite that good, but you get the point), and the most advanced air defence destroyer ever built and how it can take out multiple targets.



Children should only be allowed on aircraft if 1. Muzzled and heavily sedated 2. Go as freight
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8669 posts, RR: 43
Reply 19, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2740 times:

Quoting bristolflyer (Reply 15):
Yeah cos there's never been any trouble at the Olympics, right? For your edification:

Do tell: What good would a battery of SAMs have done in 1972? Shot down the helicopter with the hostages in it?



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8780 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2740 times:

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 18):

Instead of parking a missile team on a block of flats in London, why can't they park one of those new type 45 destroyers in the Thames estuary?

Good point. Maybe it's a line-of-sight issue.

Quoting aloges (Reply 19):
Do tell: What good would a battery of SAMs have done in 1972? Shot down the helicopter with the hostages in it?

Welcome to the modern world. Terrorists are much less interested in hostages than in simply killing as many people as possible.

[Edited 2012-04-29 10:32:28]


Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19299 posts, RR: 58
Reply 21, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2712 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
Welcome to the modern world. Terrorists are much less interested in hostages than in simply killing as many people as possible.

They don't have to. When the mere possibility that something like this could happen exists, absurd sums of money and abuses of basic rights are committed to ensure that it is marginally less likely. Why do the terrorists have to go to the bother and trouble of coordinating and executing another attack? They haven't done any since London 2005 and since the killing of Bin Laden (and the resultant intelligence we got from the compound) they are essentially neutralized.

Mind you, they will pop back up if left alone, but at this point they are incapable of pulling something like that off.

But our governments and many of our people are all very scared, and when you have scared people, stuff like this happens.


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13157 posts, RR: 78
Reply 22, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2672 times:

Quoting Dano1977 (Reply 18):
The navy keep bleating on about how good it is, with a powerful radar that can detect a flea leaving a dogs backside from 500miles away(OK not quite that good, but you get the point), and the most advanced air defence destroyer ever built and how it can take out multiple targets.

Can you imagine what powering up the SAMPSON radar on one of those would do to ATC? And much more besides in the electronic spectrum?
It's designed to defend ships at sea against complex airborne threats.
Whereas Star-streak is a close range, last ditch air defence system with a minimal electronic footprint.
So which is more suitable as a very last ditch airborne based attack on London. If, a very big if, anything got past the Typhoons.

It does sound all a bit much I know, however previous large security nightmare events since Sept 11th 2001 have employed fighters and SAM's to cover built up areas, this is not a UK thing at all.

2012 is a massive global event, as stated terrorists have not had a 'spectacular' at an Olympics since 1972. They've not been able to. Not through a new found respect of the Olympic ideals.
But terrorism does not stand still, it evolves.
So while a repeat '9/11' style attack seems most unlikely, we have seen since that they are still obsessed with aviation as a means of delivering attacks.

Airliners are much more secure now, what if some wealthy but covert backer of Islamic fundamentalists, say in a rich Gulf state, bought a biz jet in the UK, doesn't have to be new.
He even provided his own pilots.
Won't be a blast like a 757 or 767, still, a high speed dive on to the opening or closing ceremonies would be a 'spectacular'.


User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 6997 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2669 times:

My take when I first saw the article last night was of a western nation deploying combat missiles in a residential / civilian area. The threads on conflict in the middle east of civilians being hurt when return fire is directed at launchers in civilian area's are legendary.
Yes there is no war or pseudo war taking place in the UK other than the war with Al Q*****, so if terrorist decide that they have to attack a SAM site to assist their other air attack civilians hurt are regarded as what by the government?

However, I still think no one really has yet answered the question and all hope it will never happen, but is there someone assigned who will give the order to launch on a hijacked civilian airline already over London on the way towards an Olympic site? Everyone likes to think the time will be there to consult the proper chain of command which goes up to the Prime Minister / President. Now we get a better idea of why the silly rules were put in place for all being seated and no lavs a specific time before landing.


User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13012 posts, RR: 12
Reply 24, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2671 times:

The problem is that politicians need to have very public displays of force to make them look like they are doing something to protect the country to get re-elected. They also buy into a belief that blatantly obvious displays of force will act as a deterrent to a major attack. What if there had been missiles in and around NY City and DC and used on 9/11/01, shooting those a/c before they hit the towers/Pentagon/Pennsylvania, especially after the first attack into the WTC towers? There were 'Nike' missiles surrounding our cities in case the Soviets attacked, where I live in NJ near a major aircraft engine plant during WW II was where military guns were placed to protect it They were never needed to be uses, but it many the locals feel a lot better.

The better answer would be to find ways to take away the hate toward the UK, USA and other countries that give motivation for terror acts.


25 Dano1977 : The current state is "Substantial" for Great Britain In Northern Ireland, the threat level is "Severe" according to the Home office, there are 47 int
26 Post contains images aloges : I hope (shame that I can't say I trust) that the various secret services in the UK and elsewhere cooperate and exchange what information they have on
27 L410Turbolet : Bombay 2008?
28 MD11Engineer : As we´ve seen with Mr. Breivik in Norway and in Bombay, a handful of determined men and women armed with automatic weapons with plenty of ammunition
29 GDB : There was an absorbing documentary last week, on the plot in 2006 to blow up a fleet of airliners, flying from the UK to N.America, using explosives s
30 MD11Engineer : Imagine 20 terrorists in teams of 2-3 men each armed with an AK-47 (folding stock version, so that it can be easily hidden in a bag), 10 magazines eac
31 GDB : I don't read his books. Neither did I mention loading a biz jet up with explosives. However I do understand that in one Clancy novel published before
32 aloges : I'd rather not... yikes, you're scary sometimes! 'course not, I'm sorry if I came across that way. I was referring to the original idea of putting SA
33 DocLightning : What I am telling you is that if we do not catch the plot before it moves into the execution phase, then we missed the boat.
34 vegetables2001 : Why bother? In my experience an airliner falling into certain parts of East London would more like come under the category of 'Urban Redevelopment' ra
35 Post contains images aloges : While they're at it, why not redevelop the area cleared by the crash as a reliever airport for LHR?
36 Post contains images DocLightning : Radio the terrorists on the way down: "Listen, as long as you're going to crash the plane with all the people aboard, would you terribly mind doing u
37 aloges : Really, how could you? I am shocked, utterly shocked!
38 GDB : I totally agree that the best way to stop any plot is indeed to nip it in the bud, find out about it and arrest those responsible before anything happ
39 MD11Engineer : No, they cannot win. If a terrorist controlled plane has reached the greater London area, it is too late. The area is heavily urbanised and any crash
40 KiwiRob : and less than 20 years we had the Atlanta Olympics pipe bombing, only a few died but it could have been worse.
41 moo : The difference is, anywhere in Greater London will have a lower population density than whenever the Olympic Stadium is at or near its capacity of 80
42 bongodog1964 : A type 45 could easily deal with any plane that has been hijacked and identified prior to entering UK airspace, but wouldn't be much use if the hijac
43 MD11Engineer : It still sheds it´s second stage rocket after 1.5 km (which will then come down at speed). Jan
44 moo : They aren't going to be firing them off every five minutes as a deterrent - they are going to be used as a last resort. Collateral damage from a spen
45 GDB : I wonder how the very vocal anti-LHR people are going to find the Typhoon deployment to RAF Northolt? Think they'll like it? They will certainly find
46 MD11Engineer : I would like the RAF to get the Harriers back and operational. They were LOUD! Jan
47 GDB : I do indeed, sadly less of the authentic voice it once was once journalists started quoting from it, leading to more contributions from those not in
48 gingersnap : So true. However maybe it's just me, but I find the Typhoon's EJ200 to be MUCH louder than the Pegasus.
49 raffik : I agree. The invasion and ongoing occupation of Afghanistan and Iraq have created huge hostility towards America and now Britain, who hadn't been a t
50 L410Turbolet : Are you serious? You do realize that tiny little detail that unlike the Hezbollah terrorists the British Army plans no offensive action to be launche
51 raffik : Distrust and disenchantment have bred frustration and the terrorism The US alone provides Israel with $8.2m per day in military aid. Don't you realis
52 flipdewaf : No, they probably wouldn't be that stupid. That is why the MOD/gov't released this information so that it acts as a deterrent. To me it seems very si
53 moo : No more than any other location in London, during the games or at any other time.
54 Post contains links and images L410Turbolet : And? It's their money and since neither me or you are taxpayers or voters in the US who are we to tell them how their government spends money? I woul
55 raffik : Were you actually aware that Hizbollah were voted in to the government? Judging by your comment, you probably were not. The whole creation of Hizboll
56 L410Turbolet : As were nazis and communists in several instances. Just as with Hamas it does not mean they are not a terrorist entity.
57 Post contains links Dreadnought : http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Quran/023-violence.htm
58 Post contains images flipdewaf : Of course they said that, they get their chance to moan on the bloody telly and the news people want a story, they aren't giong to interview the peop
59 moo : And in return, you could equally find references to war being required against non-believers in the Bible - you should see some of the stuff in there
60 Dreadnought : 1) Is it a general, open-ended instruction, as in "go forth and fight them wherever you may find them", or specific to a particular event in history,
61 Post contains images moo : Little things like this: And this: Doesn't sound great does it? Mmmmm Im afraid not - Jesus himself says many many times that the Old Testament shoul
62 GDB : I don't want to get into the intractable Mid East thing, however comparing housing, for a very short time, some short range AA missiles in half a doze
63 moo : I couldn't agree more with that.
64 raffik : All very well for you to say that, if the Olympics were hosted in Yorkshire (!!!) and somebody wanted to set up adhoc military presence on your roof
65 flipdewaf : And how does having some military chaps on the roof of an apartment block cause problems? But the point is that it doesn't cause you problems, my poi
66 Post contains images PanHAM : Just read today the RAF is stationing Typhoons at Northold for A & DAY MANEUVRE: Now, that will be loud. Crikey, what a splendit idea. Which excus
67 Dreadnought : I have spent plenty of time in the Middle East, thank you very much - particularly Jordan and Egypt. You are correct - many wonderful people there. B
68 moo : Its not even the ideology in whole, its the ideology some people push for their own gains and power. Is Christianity at fault when some priests decid
69 zkojq : What can the SAM site achieve that a 24/7 patrol of Eurofighter Typhoons armed with air-to-air missiles can't? Eurofighters are much more aestheticall
70 moo : Immediacy - if a plane is determined to be hijacked at the very last minute, and diverts from a holding pattern over Heathrow or Gatwick, then its tr
71 PanHAM : We had this issue when German parliament debated the hi-jack situation and the shooting down of civil airliners as a possible "defense". I am not goin
72 moo : I doubt that any military man would not carry out orders to shoot down a civil passenger plane if its obvious the plane means harm. Theres never goin
73 PanHAM : well, how can you tell it is obvious, especially in a situation that was mentioned here - leaving the holding pattern. Having flown to LHR numerous t
74 moo : But there are places you can shoot them down and cause *less* harm on the ground than intended. Say for example, a mile from the Olympic Stadium rath
75 PanHAM : This is a bad movie scenario, sorry. After 9/11 the secret services of this world should have gotten their acts together, if they had that pre 9711 n
76 Post contains images flipdewaf : The titanic didn't really need a full quota of lifeboats as it was never going to sink and I don't need car insurance because I will never crash. Fre
77 moo : Any more than flying aircraft into skyscrapers...? Sure, because the new and improved intelligence services of the world managed to prevent: 202 dead
78 Post contains links starbuk7 : Sure, but not it the way you are insinuating: Summary: *Jesus references different individual parts of the Ten Commandments on four separate occasion
79 moo : Can I ask, are you just googling or have you ever studied theology and the Bible? Because Jesus also says things like this: "For assuredly, I say to
80 PanHAM : You haven't understood what I said, obviously. I spare myself using your "discussion" method ridiculing my opinion by ripping my sttement apart and p
81 Dano1977 : One thing for sure... Those buildings which get selected, if the plan gets the green light, won't have to worry about crime especially when their is a
82 vegetables2001 : It's all just PR bs window dressing for the unwashed masses, it's of little use security wise. Even though I'd love to the Olympics turn into an unmit
83 GDB : While I personally think the games should stay in Greece - they need the money for a start and since 2004 have the infrastructure - despite having a
84 L410Turbolet : Since when does one's CHOICE to follow certain ideology has anything to do with race? As they say... don't shoot the messenger. . As much as I usuall
85 MD11Engineer : There was also the little thing of a supreme court decision which said that it is not the government´s job to decide which set of innocent s to sacr
86 PanHAM : Jan explained it already and you have mentioned the reason why it is so. Air Policing is actually done by the air force, we have two squadrons, one i
87 MD11Engineer : I forgot to mention that the hearing at Germany´s constitutional court (the highest court in Germany) about the law allowing the shooting down of civ
88 Post contains images Dreadnought : I thought this was pretty good:
89 GDB : I live right near LHR, this weekend on several occasions I've heard the Typhoons overhead, not seen though, they are at 2000-4000 feet apparently and
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