Sponsor Message:
Non Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
French Republic Presidential Election 2nd Round  
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6930 posts, RR: 12
Posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2869 times:

Socialist François Hollande is poised to beat incumbent conservative Nicolas Sarkozy Sunday the 6th. Tonight, we'll see the two debating for the first time in many years. They know each other quite well, they were already debating on TV in 1993 ! Sarkozy has said in private that he will "crush him" about Hollande, something I doubt will happen.

What are your thoughts ?

http://hfr-rehost.net/http://gillesjohnson.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/00-affiches-hollande-sarkozy.jpg


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
113 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1354 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 2794 times:

Quoting Aesma (Thread starter):
What are your thoughts ?

After watching about 15 minutes of the debate, I think this is Hollande's election to loose. I was expecting Hollande to loose the debate badly however he actually held out quite well. Marine Le Pen said she would cast a blank vote on Sunday, which is a big loss for Sarkozy. Personally I support Hollande, but I'm not too fussed if Sarkozy wins. France could do a lot worse.



First to fly on the Boeing 787-9 with Air New Zealand and ZK-NZE; NZ103, AKL-SYD, 2014/08/09. I was 83rd to board.
User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3372 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 2785 times:

This will be a very interesting election. Along with the Greek election outcome, this might decide whether the euro stays as a currency or begins its downward spiral.


"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6930 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 2765 times:

I enjoyed the debate. As I thought, Hollande was up to it, and managed to be very incisive, even turning low blows like the mention of DSK to its advantage. Sarkozy was equal to himself, his supporters liked him, I'm not convinced a lot of voters will have changed their minds last night. The poor skills of the president at French are really annoying, when he's not reading a speech written by a writer.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineRAGAZZO777 From Uruguay, joined Jul 2010, 592 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 2748 times:

I could not watch the debate between Hollande and Sarko, but I definitely want Hollande to win this election. Le changement c'est maintenant !!


JESÚS, TE AMO !!
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6930 posts, RR: 12
Reply 5, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 2701 times:

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 2):
This will be a very interesting election. Along with the Greek election outcome, this might decide whether the euro stays as a currency or begins its downward spiral.

Last night Sarkozy said that thanks to his actions Greece didn't disappear  Wow! Nobody seemed to notice. Anyway, I don't think the French election would change anything for Greece, and even for the Euro it seems Sarkozy is quickly changing towards the idea of a growth component to the treaty, as are a lot of important people in the Union.

I watch a daily TV show called "C'est dans l'air" (It's in the air) with one hot topic per day, currently mostly the election, but in the last year often the crisis, and for the first time last week in a show about the crisis from the point of view of the election, I saw economists, including a pair that are right-wing, saying that the only way out of the Euro crisis is a renegotiation of the debt of ALL member countries, shaving it by 20-30%. They also mentioned that the US would probably do the same thing, too.

Interesting times lie ahead, for sure !



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineDano1977 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Jun 2008, 515 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 2668 times:

I'm not a follower of French politics, but what is Hollande's stance on Europe.

Is he the kind of guy that will cosy up to Merkle like Sarko did?



Children should only be allowed on aircraft if 1. Muzzled and heavily sedated 2. Go as freight
User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3372 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 2642 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 5):
Anyway, I don't think the French election would change anything for Greece, and even for the Euro it seems Sarkozy is quickly changing towards the idea of a growth component to the treaty, as are a lot of important people in the Union.

Well, the election won't affect Greece but definitely the euro. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Mr. Hollande who mentioned that he would not put France to participate in any other bailouts? I believe he disagreed with the way euro-zone countries are dealing with their debt crisis, which would put him on a collision course with Germany.

Anyway, this along with Greece's election (where if the two main parties can't obtain a majority by forming their own coalition, the future of Greece's euro-zone membership will be questioned) will determine how the euro will perform.



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6930 posts, RR: 12
Reply 8, posted (2 years 7 months 3 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 2635 times:

Well, he's been saying for months that he wants to renegotiate the latest treaty being adopted in 26 countries, that Sarkozy and Merkel consider their gem, so he's not exactly seen as a friend. He has the support of Germany's opposition, the SPD. If Merkel doesn't bulge, it's possible he'll bet on her being ousted in 2013 (or even before if elections are called).


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10930 posts, RR: 37
Reply 9, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2572 times:

I watched a good part of the debate and was shocked by Hollande aggressiveness constantly cutting off Sarkozy and never letting him finish what he had to say from one end to the other.

This is not a way to behave for a man who pretends to hold the Presidency for the next 5 years. He obviously showed his lack of talent as a negotiator with someone who may not have the same opinion as him. I can only imagine what it will be like if he finds himself face to face with Mrs Merkel. It will be catastrophic.

Sarkozy always remained calm while F. Hollande showed his impulsive nature constantly cutting Sarkozy off on what he had to say. Hollande is ill mannered. He is all about himself only and on the borderline of paranoia. He showed no respect for the man who was facing him. Having different policies is one thing but showing respect for the other person is crucial.

The fact that Hollande said he will tax (I'd rather say overtax) those with the most money will encourage these who have the most money to flee the country taking their money away with them and outsourcing their production to other less socialistic countries where labour laws are not as stringent and they will be charged less or even no taxes. I would do the same in a flash.

Hollande speaks the Socialist language fluently - one that has not been spoken in Europe for a long time. Taxation, redistrubution and off we go. The Socialist had tried to depict Sarkozy as "the ideal guilty man" and to show him the door - which I find extremely arrogant for someone who has never occupied any post of importance in his life and has no government record whatsoever.

F. Hollande never was given any post in any government. Nobody gave him any Ministries. Not Socialist President Mitterrand or any Socialist Prime Minister. The man has no experience aside from being a representative from the region of Correze -- which he bankrupted -- and a Mayor of the town of Tulle -- which he also bankrupted --.. He would go from this kind of record to becoming President of France for 5 years pretending to re-adjust the European treaty to his own taste contradicting Mrs Merkel policies -- he said it himself last evening in the debate -- something to which I will answer "good luck".

So much time in the debate was wasted over one nuclear plant in Alsace of which Hollande insisted he would close it down while Sarkozy said the plant was 30 years old but still in perfect running condition while Hollande said he would still shut it down. The two men argued over that one nuclear plant for almost 30 minutes as if this was a topic of utmost importance!

There was almost no discussing of foreign policy if any at all. We know Sarkozy's line from the last 5 years of his presidency but we have very little or no insight of how F. Hollande will face countries like China, Russia, India, the U.S., the countries of South East Asia (APEC). The only thing that were talked about was Afghanistan about which Holllande said he would withdraw French troops in 2012 not 2013 and countries in Africa.

I am at an age where I have seen more in my life than these two men simply as I am older than they are. I remember things of the past which they cannot remember as they were too young or even too little. I remember all the former French Presidents from René Coty (4th Republic) to Nicolas Sarkozy (today's 5th Republic). From all these great and less great men I can't remember any who had as little former experience as Frençois Hollande when they took the Presidency.

Of course he will not be running the country on his own. He will have all his Socialist friends and members of the old Socialist guard surrounding him. I doubt he will leave much room to any opponents and most of all -- should he win the election -- he will be the boss with the nuclear codes in hand and the last word to say on everything. I personally don't trust him - either him or his political associates - if anything really serious or dramatic happened to the country.

My verdict: I will not go to the vote on Sunday. I don't really want Sarkozy so I have no reason to vote for him. I want Hollande even less. If Hollande wins it won't be with my vote. If Sarkozy wins (which I would prefer as he has plenty of experience running the country and is respected by his peers in most other countries in the world) it will not be with my vote either although I would rather see him winning than Hollande...

and I really like Carla Bruni so I wish her to be in the Presidential palace another 5 years. She is wonderful, charming, beautiful, extremely rich (no need to steal public money) and she knows how to behave with Popes, Presidents and Royalty, highly regarded wherever she goes. I would vote for Carla Bruni in a flash!

Please people.. if you don't like Nicolas... think Carla! She is France's best asset!

My program on Sunday? I will stay home for part of the day and go out for a nice boat ride with local friends. I'll find out the winner via Twitter and the Swiss/Belgian media on Sunday evening.

I just hope good sense will prevail by not throwing France out to the unknown.

    



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6930 posts, RR: 12
Reply 10, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2565 times:

Yes Hollande cut Sarkozy a few times, mainly because Sarkozy was saying falsehoods bigger than the Eiffel Tower, while accusing a dozen times Hollande of being a liar (is that what you call respect ?). Both showed they could raise their voice, but I found (and most commentators not being from either camp too) that the debate stayed respectful and calm.

As for Carla Bruni, I don't know in what world you live, but she has zero influence on the situation our country is facing, and that's good since nobody voted for her.

To Dano1977 : I'd like to add that Hollande has said that his first move after being elected would be to go see Merkel, so he considers the Franco-German axis important.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 7):
Well, the election won't affect Greece but definitely the euro. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Mr. Hollande who mentioned that he would not put France to participate in any other bailouts? I believe he disagreed with the way euro-zone countries are dealing with their debt crisis, which would put him on a collision course with Germany.

If by bailout you mean "we take some of your debt but you slash your pensions and salaries in half" then yes. Otherwise he's for the Eurobonds, which are a kind of bailout, and opposed by Angela Merkel.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineGrahamHill From France, joined Mar 2007, 2869 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2556 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 9):

I watched a good part of the debate and was shocked by Hollande aggressiveness constantly cutting off Sarkozy and never letting him finish what he had to say from one end to the other.

Same here. Hollande has been extremely annoying all evening long.

If Hollande is elected, it will be a choice by default from the French. They are more tired of Sarkozy than actually convinced Hollande can do a better job.



"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
User currently offlineRAGAZZO777 From Uruguay, joined Jul 2010, 592 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2543 times:

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 11):
If Hollande is elected, it will be a choice by default from the French. They are more tired of Sarkozy than actually convinced Hollande can do a better job.

        

Exactly !



JESÚS, TE AMO !!
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6930 posts, RR: 12
Reply 13, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2520 times:

I'm not really enthusiastic about Hollande either (nor was I about his ex Royal, but I still did vote twice for her, while I voted three times for someone else than Hollande so far, in the primary and the first round of the election), but don't forget there is a crisis. I don't see any leader recently elected in a country in crisis being put in power with enthusiasm. Some weren't even elected !


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6965 posts, RR: 76
Reply 14, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2519 times:

Quoting GrahamHill (Reply 11):
If Hollande is elected, it will be a choice by default from the French. They are more tired of Sarkozy than actually convinced Hollande can do a better job.

Sounds like when Obama went for the elections!    Only, it was about choosing from two Hollandes...   
If Hollande uses the same tagline, "change you can count on" or "change you can depend on"... he'll fit right in! Except, good change or bad change?



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10930 posts, RR: 37
Reply 15, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2507 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 13):
Some weren't even elected !

I would not compare Hollande and Mario Monti as they have nothing in common.

Mario Monti like him or not is a man with a long experience and a brilliant career. I don't see any former brilliant career for Hollande. He bankrupted the city of which he was the Mayor (Tulle) and the Region of which he is a representative (Corrèze).

The now Italian Prime MInister is a highly regarded economist and academic. Rector and President of the highest rated university in Milano and a former Minister of Economy and Finance. He served as a European Commissioner for 10 years under Santer and Prodi and also appointed a Senator for life.

Mario Monti was invited by the Italian President to form a technical government after Silvio Berlusconi's resignation. I only wish we had a Mario Monti for next French President but it is not the case.



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6930 posts, RR: 12
Reply 16, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 2489 times:

Appointed a senator for life, not elected, exactly what I was saying. Would he have made it in an election ? No need to cite the talking points of the UMP on Hollande, Corrèze had a big debt before he took its helm, and it only increased by 15%. How much has the French debt risen under Sarkozy ? Did you notice how François Bayrou, whose only project was the debt, the debt, the debt, is announcing he'll vote Hollande ? Hollande hasn't been a minister for several reasons, one of them being of course that his party has been in the opposition for ten years. There is no doubt that had Jospin won in 2002, he would have gotten a ministerial job. All in all he's a typical carrier politician, just like Sarkozy and every other major candidate in France has been for decades.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1354 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2463 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 9):

I watched a good part of the debate and was shocked by Hollande aggressiveness constantly cutting off Sarkozy and never letting him finish what he had to say from one end to the other.

Sarkozy did the same.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 9):
Sarkozy always remained calm

Not in the debate that I watched...

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 9):
The fact that Hollande said he will tax (I'd rather say overtax) those with the most money will encourage these who have the most money to flee the country taking their money away with them and outsourcing their production to other less socialistic countries where labour laws are not as stringent and they will be charged less or even no taxes. I would do the same in a flash.

I thought you lived in Monaco anyway.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 9):
I will not go to the vote on Sunday.

Me neither. While I hold the legal right to vote, I feel that I don't have the moral right to vote because I'm not currently living in France. Still, I like Hollande (mildly more than Sarkozy) so I'm hoping he wins. Neither of them are as good as Jacques Chirac unfortunately.  



First to fly on the Boeing 787-9 with Air New Zealand and ZK-NZE; NZ103, AKL-SYD, 2014/08/09. I was 83rd to board.
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined exactly 15 years ago today! , 4318 posts, RR: 11
Reply 18, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2464 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 3):
I'm not convinced a lot of voters will have changed their minds last night. The poor skills of the president at French are really annoying, when he's not reading a speech written by a writer.



Interesting you mention this. Even though I am far from achieving non-native French fluency, I also could gather that Sarkozy does not have the rhetorical eloquence Hollande commands. Nonetheless, I think Sarkozy was good at getting tersely to the main points. Hollande was a bit more elliptical, but at times much better at framing issues perspicuously. His objections to the ECB lending to private banks for nothing so that they "usury" (my word) governments at 6% rates was a trenchant, cogent argument. I did think he was a bit excessive with interrupting, but Sarkozy did resort to impugn Hollande often, so those two things cancel out.

I thought it was an extremely informative debate, with the caveat that most of what they discussed was fairly new information to me and not something I've heard 50 times like most people in France surely have.



My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6930 posts, RR: 12
Reply 19, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2348 times:

Today is the day. The latest polls (from Friday, since politics is banned during the week-end) show Hollande winning 52/53% and Sarkozy 47/48%. The only time a sitting president lost a reelection is in 1981 when François Mitterrand got 51,76% against Valéry Giscard d'Estaing, so 52% would be a good victory, and 53% a large one.

Derico : yes, the arguments and numbers were very much known, in fact Sarkozy used numbers that had already been proved wrong.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10930 posts, RR: 37
Reply 20, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 2291 times:

Flanby at 52,6 Euros.

From Twitter feeds using code language F. Hollande is given as the winner of the French Presidential election 2 hours before the closing of polls.

Swiss and Belgian news sites are confirming Hollande victory.

www.lalibre.be/l-actu-principale-de-ce-jour/

http://www.lesoir.be/

http://www.tdg.ch/

 Wow!

[Edited 2012-05-06 09:41:40]


There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinesabenapilot From Belgium, joined Feb 2000, 2728 posts, RR: 46
Reply 21, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2233 times:

France gets a socialist president, 17 years after F. Mitterand!

Congratulations, President Hollande!


User currently offlinehelvknight From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 22, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2222 times:

5 minutes to go on France 2 and the Place de la Bastille, traditional meeting point of the Left on these occasions is packed while the Place de la Concorde (where the right hand out) is deserted.



User currently offlinehelvknight From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 23, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2220 times:

20:00 on France 2.

Francoise Hollande with 51.9%.


User currently onlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8764 posts, RR: 42
Reply 24, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2214 times:

Mes félicitations, M. Hollande!

I'm curious about the future development of the Franco-German relationship... "Mommy" can't be too happy, which makes me very happy! 



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlinehelvknight From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 25, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2278 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 24):
"Mommy" can't be too happy, which makes me very happy!

"Mommy" has her own problems, looking at the elections in Schleswig Holstein. 


User currently onlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8764 posts, RR: 42
Reply 26, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2275 times:

Quoting helvknight (Reply 25):
"Mommy" has her own problems, looking at the elections in Schleswig Holstein.

...and the upcoming ones in Nordrhein-Westfalen.    I'll be doing my part to make life just a little bit more difficult for her.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10930 posts, RR: 37
Reply 27, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2315 times:

Hollande is not my president.

My vote went to Michael Schumacher
greatest Formula 1 driver of all times.

  



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinecedars747 From Norway, joined Dec 2005, 2721 posts, RR: 19
Reply 28, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2285 times:

Congratulation to Monsieur Le president Francois Holland and hasta never Sarkozy!
Vive le socialisme



Tengo una pasion por la aviacion !لدي شغف للطيران !I have a passion for aviation !
User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3845 posts, RR: 11
Reply 29, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2280 times:

Oh well...

Vive la France molle.

Spain, here we come!



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2545 posts, RR: 14
Reply 30, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2259 times:

Je suis heureux de cette élection! Félicitations, Monsieur le Président Hollande!

I think him to be a more honest president than Sarko, even when it is to the detriment of the "European" cause and Angela Merkel. We simply cannot design bigger and bigger schemes to save the finance sector. We have to think hard about the future of Europe, and the EU should not be reduced to an economic union, but it should stand as a union we citizen can be proud of.



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13253 posts, RR: 77
Reply 31, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2241 times:

How will F. Hollande deal with Frau Markel?

Interesting to see that during the campaign, both Hollande and Sarko visited the '6th biggest French city', that is, in terms of population, which is London! (Sarko was here in 2007. Royale maybe had turned her nose up at such an idea).

This large French diaspora are not, unlike the British in France, often retirees seeking a quiet, rural, place in the sun, neither are they the stereotypical immigrants doing low skill, low paid, entry level jobs the natives deem to be below them.
No, they are often in the City Of London, or teachers, in publishing, running businesses, setting up their own SME's.

Sarko came in 2007 not just to garner their votes but to encourage some of them back home, to apply their skills and talents, the demographic of them is also young.
Clearly he did not succeed in this, maybe the 2008 financial crisis derailed that and much more, you'd think so with those in the financial sector at least.

But the question perhaps should be, will Hollande do any better?
I'm of course only using Franco-London as a symbol to a wider problem, it's a valid one perhaps?


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10930 posts, RR: 37
Reply 32, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2244 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 29):

The leader of the "Free Lunch" has been elected. The bill for that "free" lunch will be due in about 2 or 3 years and it will include a big tip. Then all Hell will break loose.


 Wow!



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently onlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21521 posts, RR: 53
Reply 33, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2230 times:

It will be interesting to watch if and how Hollande will get a handle on France's difficulties.

I sincerely wish him – and France – the best of luck with it!

I have little doubt that he will find a way for constructive cooperation with Angela Merkel; They might get along quite decently outside of the usual exaggerations of an election campaign.

Sarkozy was usually entertaining, but that alone is not enough to win the highest office…!


User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3372 posts, RR: 8
Reply 34, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2221 times:

Quoting sabenapilot (Reply 21):
France gets a socialist president, 17 years after F. Mitterand!

Congratulations, President Hollande!

So much for the current trend of electing right-wing governments in Europe. That's a topic I'm discussing with some people on Facebook (they think all left-wingers, especially European Socialists are a danger and ever since Spain put in a Conservative government, they claim that the right will dominate the world scenario).

Nevertheless, congratulations to president-elect Hollande.



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently onlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8764 posts, RR: 42
Reply 35, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2220 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 30):
I think him to be a more honest president than Sarko, even when it is to the detriment of the "European" cause and Angela Merkel. We simply cannot design bigger and bigger schemes to save the finance sector.

Au contraire! I think it's going to be very much to the benefit of the EU if the political focus is shifted from the financial markets to the citizens. Corporations left, right and centre have been declared "too big to fail" (or rather "system-relevant" in fluent Politician) and the citizens made to bleed for their rescue. If we manage to reduce our dependence on this largest ever casino, we will all be better off for it.

Quoting GDB (Reply 31):
I'm of course only using Franco-London as a symbol to a wider problem, it's a valid one perhaps?

I don't necessarily think of it as a problem. Intra-EU migration is, IMHO, jst as normal as domestic migration. It's a single market, so you go where you can find the best environment for your personal success. My brother lives and works in France, my better half studies in Hungary and my own university course is full of people from international backgrounds. Those and many other examples show me that migration comes natural to us.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 33):
They might get along quite decently outside of the usual exaggerations of an election campaign.

 checkmark  Mittérand and Kohl weren't "enemies" either... quite the opposite, IIRC.

[Edited 2012-05-06 12:38:50]


Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13198 posts, RR: 15
Reply 36, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2177 times:

Obviously the people have spoken in France, or at least the ones that vote and are rejecting the relatively conservative politics of Sarkozy.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 32):
francoflier (Reply 29):The leader of the "Free Lunch" has been elected. The bill for that "free" lunch will be due in about 2 or 3 years and it will include a big tip. Then all Hell will break loose.

Voters in almost all EU countries as well as the USA, Canada and Japan want more subsidies from government but no one wants to pay for them. No one can afford to continue to increase national debt. No politician can raise taxes on anyone. No one in government wants to lose their jobs or benefits. The rich pay off the politicians to prevent raising taxes on them or they will vote with their feet and leave. Manufacturing has been shifted to Asia to hold down product costs killing jobs and growth. The era of the 'free lunch' is over but most voters cannot accept that, they still want to hang on to a past that is gone. Throw in legal and illegal immigration (and in the EC, the ability of workers to move from country to country), higher energy costs, people living longer and less healthy and you have need to change but no one who wants to.

Good luck to President-elect Hollande but he is going to face a battle over money and political popularity that may break him in the end.


User currently onlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21521 posts, RR: 53
Reply 37, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2165 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 32):
The leader of the "Free Lunch" has been elected. The bill for that "free" lunch will be due in about 2 or 3 years and it will include a big tip. Then all Hell will break loose.

That is delusional propaganda. Historically it's more often the progressive governments who have to clean up the ideological messes and particularly the financial fallout of their conservative predecessors than the other way around.

Quoting aloges (Reply 35):
Au contraire! I think it's going to be very much to the benefit of the EU if the political focus is shifted from the financial markets to the citizens. Corporations left, right and centre have been declared "too big to fail" (or rather "system-relevant" in fluent Politician) and the citizens made to bleed for their rescue. If we manage to reduce our dependence on this largest ever casino, we will all be better off for it.

  


User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5743 posts, RR: 19
Reply 38, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2138 times:

For the sake of the EU economy and the whole botched Euro project I hoped the less socialist candidate wins.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 34):
they think all left-wingers, especially European Socialists are a danger and ever since Spain put in a Conservative government, they claim that the right will dominate the world scenario

I'd say their notoriety to spend money they did not earn are a luxury Europe can't really afford right now.

Quoting sabenapilot (Reply 21):
France gets a socialist president, 17 years after F. Mitterand!

Who would have thought it has been 17 years already, if one was to judge based on policies Frances pushes for socialists have never left the Elyseé.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 37):
Historically it's more often the progressive governments who have to clean up the ideological messes and particularly the financial fallout of their conservative predecessors than the other way around.

"Progressive"... LOL! Is that what lefties like to call themselves?


User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13253 posts, RR: 77
Reply 39, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2135 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 35):
I don't necessarily think of it as a problem. Intra-EU migration is, IMHO, jst as normal as domestic migration. It's a single market, so you go where you can find the best environment for your personal success.

I agree, though when you get to the point of London being the 6th largest French city population wise, something else is at play here.
You'd think that with the single currency, the long Franco-German compact within the EU, a work/life culture elsewhere in Europe that is more like France than the UK is, if there was such a large French presence it would be on the mainland. Even allowing for the tunnel.

It just seems to me a long way from when the only French that ordinary people in London encountered were like the teenage French students on school sponsored trips to England to stay with families, like the young lady my parents took in, whom we've kept in touch with, met up with, over the four decades since.
Or through marriage, a former boss of mine married a French girl. During a previous French election, in the 1990's, I asked if his wife was voting. 'Yes, but she don't reckon the main parties, she's voting for a small one whose only policy is the overthrow of the state!'


User currently onlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21521 posts, RR: 53
Reply 40, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2123 times:

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 38):
"Progressive"... LOL! Is that what lefties like to call themselves?

It's simply the objective distinction to "conservative".


User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3372 posts, RR: 8
Reply 41, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2107 times:

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 38):
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 34):
they think all left-wingers, especially European Socialists are a danger and ever since Spain put in a Conservative government, they claim that the right will dominate the world scenario

I'd say their notoriety to spend money they did not earn are a luxury Europe can't really afford right now.

Well, austerity is only threatening to put the entire region in recession, so what is the happy medium?



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2545 posts, RR: 14
Reply 42, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2107 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 35):

That's what I wanted to say.  

Interesting times lie ahead, also with the Pirates gaining votes and perhaps replacing the FDP in Germany!


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently onlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21521 posts, RR: 53
Reply 43, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2101 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 42):
Interesting times lie ahead, also with the Pirates gaining votes and perhaps replacing the FDP in Germany!

In various parliaments? Yes, most likely.

In any governments? Maybe some day, but not sooner than a few years ahead, if they make it that long.


User currently onlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8764 posts, RR: 42
Reply 44, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 2101 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 36):
Good luck to President-elect Hollande but he is going to face a battle over money and political popularity that may break him in the end.

That is certainly a possibility. Hollande has just won one of the most difficult jobs in the world and, not unlike Obama, he will leave lots of people disappointed. How this will play out is anybody's guess.

Quoting GDB (Reply 39):
I agree, though when you get to the point of London being the 6th largest French city population wise, something else is at play here.

Well, London is extremely attractive and the French call everything outside Paris "the province" (as in "the sticks") and flock to the Île-de-France. The result is that the sixth largest city in France is Nantes with a population of less than 300.000. When compared to similar statistics for the UK or Germany, that is quite small indeed.

Quoting GDB (Reply 39):
You'd think that with the single currency, the long Franco-German compact within the EU, a work/life culture elsewhere in Europe that is more like France than the UK is, if there was such a large French presence it would be on the mainland. Even allowing for the tunnel.

But is there any other city in the EU that is as huge and attractive as London?   I think that's your answer, really. Over the past decades, London has enjoyed phenomenal successes and it attracts "elites" from everywhere in the world. The French have a rather elitist higher education system, but the Grandes Écoles to which I am referring do admit lots of students. So perhaps the French end up with more "elite" graduates than they need in their own coutry.

Quoting GDB (Reply 39):
It just seems to me a long way from when the only French that ordinary people in London encountered

Like I said, those days are well and truly over - particularly in the UK which (to my knowledge) never employed the somewhat hypocritical practice to limit immigration from new EU members in eastern Europe.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3845 posts, RR: 11
Reply 45, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2078 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 36):
Voters in almost all EU countries as well as the USA, Canada and Japan want more subsidies from government but no one wants to pay for them. No one can afford to continue to increase national debt. No politician can raise taxes on anyone. No one in government wants to lose their jobs or benefits. The rich pay off the politicians to prevent raising taxes on them or they will vote with their feet and leave. Manufacturing has been shifted to Asia to hold down product costs killing jobs and growth. The era of the 'free lunch' is over but most voters cannot accept that, they still want to hang on to a past that is gone. Throw in legal and illegal immigration (and in the EC, the ability of workers to move from country to country), higher energy costs, people living longer and less healthy and you have need to change but no one who wants to.

Absolutely.

Quoting aloges (Reply 35):
I think it's going to be very much to the benefit of the EU if the political focus is shifted from the financial markets to the citizens.

Financials institutions, investment banks and Wall street brokers are the very least of Europe's problem.
The thing is, if Hollande's presidential campaign was anything to go by, politicians love to point fingers at the big bad greedy banks as the cause of all our problems. They're not. The financial crisis is over.
Our real problem comes from nowhere else but ourselves. We've encouraged governments who rode the gravy train for decades thinking we'd keep being loaned money forever. Our nation's debt has always been growing higher and we kept being lent money because we still had 'relevant' economies with some production. But this has changed.

Bankers have played demi-gods with the world's money before and got bit by it, but I can't blame them for not wanting to keep lending us anymore.
'Too big to fail' doesn't apply to corporation only. We're starting to reach the sour realization that governments can be unsolvable too.

Instead of blaming those shameful immoral bankers, we should start looking at the ridiculous figure on our own debt counter and get down from that silver cloud we seem to be flying on.
But It seems the penny hasn't dropped yet.



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently onlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8764 posts, RR: 42
Reply 46, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2059 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 45):
We're starting to reach the sour realization that governments can be unsolvable too.

Just to clarify, did you mean "insolvent"?

Quoting francoflier (Reply 45):
Instead of blaming those shameful immoral bankers, we should start looking at the ridiculous figure on our own debt counter and get down from that silver cloud we seem to be flying on.
But It seems the penny hasn't dropped yet.

I'm sorry, but credit default swaps, short selling, junk bonds and the like were not inventions of governments. They were created by bankers trying to increase their profits (and hence salaries). It worked and it is still working, but only because nobody has the political will and ability to stop it.

It is, of course, true that even governments can't spend without consequences. They may try to devalue their debts through inflation, but that'll only make things worse. But we have had decades of deficit spending and we cannot expect to end the practice abruptly without dire consequences - it does need to end, but gradually. The result of excessive austerity is always social unrest, as may be witnessed in Greece (where today's election made hardline socialists the second strongest party in the national parliament).



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6930 posts, RR: 12
Reply 47, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2059 times:

After two bottles of champagne I'm a little drunk so I won't say much, just that I'm happy for my country, hopefully politics can be more serious again with our new Président François Hollande. Thanks to Nicolas Sarkozy for a good speech without too much rancor.

Currently there are parties across the country, with popular artists like Yannick Noah offering a show.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently onlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21521 posts, RR: 53
Reply 48, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2057 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 45):
The financial crisis is over.

Not remotely. Just a few of the most acute sub-crises have been reduced to a slower burn, most likely just temporarily, though.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 45):
Our real problem comes from nowhere else but ourselves. We've encouraged governments who rode the gravy train for decades thinking we'd keep being loaned money forever.

Progressively lowering taxes and borrowing the money back from the same people whose taxes had just been lowered is the crucial mistake at the heart of the global crisis of public finance: It basically shifted the burden from corporations and wealthy citizens down to the actually remaining taxpayers, which is mostly the middle class.

Since middle class income has been squeezed and people being pushed down into low-wage jobs at the same time, however, that approach is by now pretty much at its end, resulting in fiscal, social and political crises which are increasingly getting explosive. Just look at today's greek election results to get an inkling on where things can go.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 45):
Instead of blaming those shameful immoral bankers, we should start looking at the ridiculous figure on our own debt counter and get down from that silver cloud we seem to be flying on.
But It seems the penny hasn't dropped yet.

Taxes will need to be re-adjusted and financial deregulation needs to be reined in again. I agree that the penny has not dropped yet for most.

Yes, curbing of waste and overspending remain necessary at the same time, but the primary root of the problem lies elsewhere. Only the richest can afford the cut-down and effectively paralyzed state conservatives and econo-liberals have been striving for pretty much since the 1980s, to the disastrous results we observe today.

[Edited 2012-05-06 14:41:23]

User currently offlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1354 posts, RR: 1
Reply 49, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 1991 times:

Congratulations to Mr Hollande, I wish him well with his new job. Now, time for the hard work to begin...

Quoting aloges (Reply 46):
The result of excessive austerity is always social unrest

and a decline/standstill in economic growth.



First to fly on the Boeing 787-9 with Air New Zealand and ZK-NZE; NZ103, AKL-SYD, 2014/08/09. I was 83rd to board.
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8974 posts, RR: 39
Reply 50, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1903 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 46):
I'm sorry, but credit default swaps, short selling, junk bonds and the like were not inventions of governments. They were created by bankers trying to increase their profits (and hence salaries). It worked and it is still working, but only because nobody has the political will and ability to stop it.

And of course, there is nothing inherently wrong with credit default swaps, short selling, junk bonds, etc. . it was the underlying economic conditions, created by government manipulation of credit markets, that caused all these things to blow up. CDSs or not, it would have blown up one way or another.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 49):
and a decline/standstill in economic growth.

Totally false on the medium and long run. The alternative theory to austerity leads to stagflation, and history has shown this repeatedly.

[Edited 2012-05-06 18:24:14]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2545 posts, RR: 14
Reply 51, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1820 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 50):
it was the underlying economic conditions, created by government manipulation of credit markets

Uh no. Banks also exercise a lot of pressure on the government to weaken regulations. If there had been tougher laws limiting lending to customers, much of the boogaboo wouldn't have happened - in the U.S. as here in Europe. Here the banks demand at least 20% of own funds before you get considered for a mortgage.

The banks, knowing that they as large institutions cannot "fail", did expect the governments to bail them out, and so they carried on lending to subprime borrowers. And these delicately constructed CDS helped to make the investors blind, especially when these papers were skyrocketing. There should be limits on what should be traded on the financial markets in my opinion. Everyone knows what a bond is, what a share is, what a loan is. But rarely somebody knows what he buys with a CDS...

And then the banks failed one central tenet of banking: Borrowers do not have to pay back their loan. To insure against this possibility, you can raise interest rates, and keep a register of risky borrowers. This is how you do it. Normally. And now apply this to both house owners there and the country of Greece here, where money-hungry lions were fed with cheap money.

But you can't go to Father Government (as we say in German-speaking countries) pleading for help, and neglect your homework. Leftists that say that banks should not be saved may be the better capitalists in that light - both success and failure are core components of capitalism.

[Edited 2012-05-06 23:21:44]


Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9739 posts, RR: 31
Reply 52, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1780 times:

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 38):
For the sake of the EU economy and the whole botched Euro project I hoped the less socialist candidate wins.

Good one, brings it to the point. Sarko and Merkel are socialists with may be a bit more realism. Taxing the "super rich" with 75% actually brings in less taxes becaiuse les super riche will simply leave the country and go where their money already is. The average people with good education and good median income are those who are drained dry. It is simple maths, even when öles uper riche are taxed 100% and even if they woulod pay it, it would be a drop on a hot iron plat.e

Quoting Klaus (Reply 40):
It's simply the objective distinction to "conservative".

I cannot be held responsible for ever having voted for Mr., schroeder, however, he brought that to the point, there is no "right (conservative)" or (left """progressive""") politics, there is only good politics.

Mrs, Hollande*s understanding of the economy is dating back from the 70s. Now, I call that conservative.

Taking up the challenges of a modern world where news spreads in seconds and is available to almost everyone in a global market )the real base of globalisation was the revolt in modern communication) is progressive.

I cannot see how Mr, Hollande can be called progressive. He will certainly not be able to take communication away from the French people.

But, then, he will be scaled down to reality pretty soon and since he is about the same size of Mr., Sarkozy this will not take too long.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineoldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2091 posts, RR: 4
Reply 53, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1768 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 26):
...and the upcoming ones in Nordrhein-Westfalen. I'll be doing my part to make life just a little bit more difficult for her.

Me too, me too!   



Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
User currently onlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8764 posts, RR: 42
Reply 54, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1761 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 52):
Sarko and Merkel are socialists with may be a bit more realism.

What on Earth have you been smoking?    If those two are socialists, who are the capitalists?



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineoldeuropean From Germany, joined May 2005, 2091 posts, RR: 4
Reply 55, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1761 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 54):
What on Earth have you been smoking? If those two are socialists, who are the capitalists?

No, they are neoliberals, but Merkel is also very pragmatic. If something serves the retention of her power, she makes crazy decisions.
For Merkel, gaining her power comes first and far behind this comes the well beeing of Germany and Europe.

[Edited 2012-05-07 01:05:21]

[Edited 2012-05-07 01:06:53]


Wer nichts weiss muss alles glauben
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10930 posts, RR: 37
Reply 56, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1706 times:

A was a mucktard who wrecked the economy so lets vote for mucktard B who is controlled by the same pastards who controlled mucktard A... let's see if it makes a difference.

How blind can people be?

 Wow!

7 years ago election was staged between Sarkozy and François Hollande's missus
Democracy yeah right!

  



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9739 posts, RR: 31
Reply 57, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1697 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 54):
What on Earth have you been smoking? If those two are socialists, who are the capitalists?

I quit smoking 25 years ago and that weed stuff I have never smoked in my life. Kept me a clear mind.

the worst you can call Merkel is a populist, same goes for Sarko and the whole other bunch. They jump on each and every bandwaggon that rolls by. You can call that pragmatic, but this BS costs our money, like that new agency they set up for watching the petrol price. Another couple oif hundred beaurocrats we never can fire agan, costs, plus the costs for the industry which they will pass to the consumer and the loss of competiiton that way means that we have to foot the bill as taxpayers and pay more at the petrol station as well. All for a couple of thousand votes, another bad example of how politics should not work.

Unfortunately, there is no party that would tell the people how things are. Instead the thinking is in the black and white categories like shown here Capitalist (bad) socialist (good) . That is Augsburger Puppenkiste, or Muppet Show but not how the world works. The economy works best when the state intervenes as little as possible. The laws we have (BGB, HGB) basically are over 100 years old and still an excellent base for doing business.

Meanwhile it does not matter anymore who is in charge, they all do the same BS. Merkel to a lesser extend and hopefully she will take the wind out of Hollande's sails to renegotiate the fiscal pact. There's no need to burn another couple of billions a fond perdue. Remove the chains from French industry to be at par with Germany, that costs little and gains much.

Less state, more freedom is the answer. Funny thing is, Schroeder understood that and realized it at least a tiny bit. The industry is not the enemy of people but the donkey that pulls the cart. Politicians do not create jobs, at worst they create new laws that kill productive jobs.

Let's hope for France that Hollande does not dirve the cart against the wall. Sarko has done that already but a Socialist with a 1970s mindset will certainly accelarate that.

[Edited 2012-05-07 03:21:17]


Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10930 posts, RR: 37
Reply 58, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1659 times:

Waiting on the NYSE....

Euro declines on French and Greek election results

The euro fell as low as $1.295, its lowest since January, and dropped to three-year lows against the pound.
European stock markets fell, with Germany's Dax trading 1.2% lower.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17980446

Latest: Markets fall after Europe votes

The euro and shares across Europe fell sharply today after France elected its first Socialist President for 17 years and Greek voters punished parties who were implementing an austerity drive. Europe’s single currency fell below $1.30 (£0.80), France’s country’s stock market opened…

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/

Stock markets fall as Greek and French elections renew fears that Europe cannot solve debt crisis
World stock markets hit as France votes for first Socialist president in 20 years and Greece chooses a parliament with a majority of MPs from anti-bailout parties.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...rope-cannot-solve-debt-crisis.html

 Wow!



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently onlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8764 posts, RR: 42
Reply 59, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1637 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 56):
How blind can people be?

Vote for Marine Le Pen, did you?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 57):
the worst you can call Merkel is a populist, same goes for Sarko and the whole other bunch. They jump on each and every bandwaggon that rolls by. You can call that pragmatic

I'd prefer "opportunistic", much like Merkels Ausstieg vom Ausstieg vom Ausstieg (her botched nuclear energy policy).

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 57):
Instead the thinking is in the black and white categories like shown here Capitalist (bad) socialist (good).

That does go both ways, starting at the confusion between socialism and social democracy. You can witness it in every political talk show... if you can endure more than five minutes of one, that is.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 57):
The conomy works best when the state intervenes as little as possible. The laws we have (BGB, HGB) are over 100 years old and still an excellent base for doing business.

There is a certain amount of self-contradiction in those two statements.  

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 57):
Meanwhile it does not matter anymore who is in charge, they all do the same BS.

Kohl screwed up the reunification and Merkel is his student - the economy of the former GDR was annihilated and what assets and/or potential it had was frequently bled dry for short-term profit. Kohl stood by and employed his infamous policy of "aussitzen" (downplay problems, do little to nothing about them and hope that people will stop caring) while the country stumbled from budget freeze to budget freeze. The subsequent years saw consolidation under the parties which you criticise for their alleged spending habits, but that changed in 2009 when the Mövenpick Party somehow got 14,6% of the vote. Several hundred billions later, wasted on keeping the worst-managed banks in recent history afloat while we're doing little about the fundamental problems, we're still faced with an ever-increasing income and wealth disparity and with austerity measures that once again cripple entire economies - due to the very belief that the so-called free market will sort itself out and provide a benefit to the people(s).

It's been proven time and again that strong laissez-faire is no better than strong dirigisme. So it's time we stopped wasting endless amounts of time and money on a part of capitalism that is corrupt and dysfunctional. If Hollande can turn the helm that way, we'll be better off for it. Merkel, locked in her "marriage of dreams" (seems more like a nightmare most of the time) with the FDP, cannot start this trend unless she risks mutiny in her own government. But perhaps she can make it look like she has to give in to Hollande... like she did to the SPD in earlier times.

That is one reason why the French election may very well prove to be a blessing for the EU. Another one is that Hollande is, by all accounts, less of an attention- and power-seeker than Sarkozy. The latter loved the grand gesture of steering the fate of the EU together with his German friend; the former will hopefully stop this exclusion of 25 EU member nations.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 58):
The euro fell as low as $1.295, its lowest since January, and dropped to three-year lows against the pound.

It's back on the rise again...

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 58):
European stock markets fell, with Germany's Dax trading 1.2% lower.

It's back on the rise again...

What exactly does a short-term development of these indices tell us about the overall state of our economies? Not terribly much, to put it very mildly... it'll be a week until Hollande even assumes office.

[Edited 2012-05-07 03:40:33]


Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9739 posts, RR: 31
Reply 60, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1622 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 59):
I'd prefer "opportunistic", much like Merkels Ausstieg vom Ausstieg vom Ausstieg (her botched nuclear energy policy).

call it what you want, it will cost us € 500 billion over the years and we should have stayed with the safe nuclear energy. Not our probloem when japanese put emergeny power diesel gensets at sea level when statistically every 36 years they have a Tsunami with 30 meter waves. Not our problem when the Ukraine military runs an experiment that blows up a reactor. Telling people not what the real reason for the accidents was and not telling them how much it costs is opportunistic, certainly populistic and coward.

Quoting aloges (Reply 59):
There is a certain amount of self-contradiction in those two statements.

Not at alll. We are a state ruled by the law. Excellent laws are the basic for the economy, it cannot work without legal stability. It would not be free without, the economy is free with a good judicial system. We also have the division of powers. The state (legislative and executive makes sure that we have proper laws, but he does not intervene in judicial matters., the courts and the judges are independent.


Kohl made the re-unification possible. That was hard worlk enough. The best way would have been to set up a special economic zone for the first 20 or 25 years to get the East germanj economy

Quoting aloges (Reply 59):
Kohl screwed up the reunification and Merkel is his student - the economy of the former GDR was annihilated and

Kohl made the re-unification possible. That was hard work enough, imagine how many times he had to duck Mrs. T's hand bag attacks. The best way would have been to set up a special economic zone for the first 20 or 25 years but I ndounbt that this would have been conform with our constitution.

East Germany was ruined by 40 years of socialism, that's the fact. Nobody can turn that around in 5 years time. But we have done it and that is Kohl's credit. We even allowed the party that ruined that part of our country to still exist today. The SED, if they had the turn, would have imprisoned the West German cabinet and they and guys like me would still be in the Gulag.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10930 posts, RR: 37
Reply 61, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1616 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 59):
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 56):
How blind can people be?

Vote for Marine Le Pen, did you?

how about you? I suppose you voted for Hollande?

Read my posts.
I did not vote on the first round.

Hollande is not my president.

My vote went to Michael Schumacher
the greatest Formula 1 driver of all times


  



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently onlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8764 posts, RR: 42
Reply 62, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 1607 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 60):
Kohl made the re-unification possible.

It wasn't Kohl alone who made the reunification possible. But it was his government that ruined it royally by turning the five newly created states into a free-for-all for businessmen with less than honest intentions. The resulting problems continue to plague Germany to this day.

Anyway, thank you for proving my point.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 57):
Instead the thinking is in the black and white categories like shown here Capitalist (bad) socialist (good) .
Quoting aloges (Reply 59):
That does go both ways,

___

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 61):
how about you? I suppose you voted for Hollande?

I am not a French citizen.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 61):
Read my posts.

Well, you hadn't said this before:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 61):
I did not vote on the first round.

Otherwise I wouldn't have asked.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 61):
Hollande is not my president.

Whether you like it or not, he is the President-elect of France. Just like Angela Merkel is the chancellor of Germany, which is something I don't like anymore.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 61):
My vote went to Michael Schumacher
the greatest Formula 1 driver of all times

I'm sure that put the fear of God into Hollande.

[Edited 2012-05-07 04:12:18]


Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2156 posts, RR: 16
Reply 63, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1563 times:

Well, to my neighbors in the north, I say good luck and I hope your new president will serve you well.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 38):
"Progressive"... LOL! Is that what lefties like to call themselves?

Oh yes. In the anglosphere that's the new leftist party line after the term "liberal" was successfully changed into a pejorative word.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 40):
It's simply the objective distinction to "conservative".

Evidently the word "objective" doesn't mean what you think it means.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 45):
Bankers have played demi-gods with the world's money before and got bit by it, but I can't blame them for not wanting to keep lending us anymore.

Bankers did not "get bit by it", on the contrary. They've managed to continue with business as usual, quite unbitten by anything.

asturias



Tonight we fly
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9739 posts, RR: 31
Reply 64, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1554 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 62):
t wasn't Kohl alone who made the reunification possible. But it was his government that ruined it royally by turning the five newly created states into a free-for-all for businessmen with less than honest intentions. The resulting problems continue to plague Germany to this day.

I said that, it would have been better to have a special economic zone for the first 20 or so years. Besides that, we are a free country, what you said is replacing an old GDR with a new GDR with the same old pressure system governing people and hindering their ideas. Economic activities can only flourish in a free society and since all people have equal chances such an economic zone would most likely have been unconstutional.

Quoting aloges (Reply 59):
That does go both ways, starting at the confusion between socialism and social democracy. You can witness it in every political talk show... if you can endure more than five minutes of one, that is.

I am not confusing anything . The topic here is Hollande and he claims himself to be a socialist. Someone with slapping 75% income tax on people is certainly not a social democrat. Our supreme court BTW found that the limit what the state can take is 50%.

That is achieved already by median income, if you take and accumulate all state mandatory taxes etc. . We culd say that even germany is walking a tight rope here.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently onlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8764 posts, RR: 42
Reply 65, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1541 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 64):
I said that, it would have been better to have a special economic zone for the first 20 or so years.

Exactly. That way, the ruination brought about by decades of (mis)planned economy could have been addressed before every single enterprise was opened up to cannibalisation. But the Kohl government failed to do any of that.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 64):
Besides that, we are a free country, what you said is replacing an old GDR with a new GDR with the same old pressure system governing people and hindering their ideas.

...and where did I say that?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 64):
We culd say that even germany is walking a tight rope here.

I didn't expect the whiff of Red Scare... anyway, that is just absurd. Germany has become nothing but more laissez-faire since the reunification, but the freedom of a society is not a key interest of private economic activity. History offers countless examples proving the point, such as Standard Oil.

Give someone the freedom to amass power and money (essentially the same in capitalism) and you'll be extremely lucky if he doesn't use either to your own disadvantage. That's why we need to maintain a distribution of power and money that every citizen can at least tolerate.

[Edited 2012-05-07 05:19:52]


Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently onlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7647 posts, RR: 8
Reply 66, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1521 times:

So what does these last couple elections tell us about the economic measures that the EU administration has been putting in place?
The council elections in the UK last week resulted in a drubbing for the ruling party
The French have changed presidents
Greece had to change their government to one that fell in line with the demands of the EU

The be perverse, the issue seems to be that the people when they are allowed to voice their opinion are completely out of step with the administrators who are attempting to put in place measures that are best for the people.


User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3845 posts, RR: 11
Reply 67, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1521 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 46):
Just to clarify, did you mean "insolvent"?

I do, pardon my French...

Quoting aloges (Reply 46):
I'm sorry, but credit default swaps, short selling, junk bonds and the like were not inventions of governments.

They aren't, but then those things aren't what's threatening out countries right now. Massive accumulation of debt and decreasing productivity are.

Quoting aloges (Reply 46):
it does need to end, but gradually.

Agreed, but Hollande will certainly not be the one who will start dabbing on the brake pedal. Sarko did, with a few much needed reforms, and was hit by a wave of social protests. He persevered and did manage to get a few done, like the increase retirement age. But even that was still only a fraction of what needs to be done. Except everything will be put on hold now.

Quoting aloges (Reply 46):
The result of excessive austerity is always social unrest, as may be witnessed in Greece

Greece has let the situation slip beyond an economic 'event horizon' past which austerity policies to reign spending leads to a slowed economy with even less income, but where funds needed to invest in the country to relaunch its economy just cannot be found because of the debt. I honestly don't know how they can get out of this one while staying in the Euro zone.
It frightens me to death that we're headed into that black hole full speed ahead...

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 52):
Taxing the "super rich" with 75%

Taxing the super rich is a populist measure if there ever was any. Rich people aren't popular in Europe, and politicians love to take them apart, along with the bankers, and turn them into an evil that the voting masses love to hate.
The truth is, they may be super rich, there are so few of them that they make up a very tiny fraction of the overall taxable income. You could tax them at 150% and apart from quenching the hatred of some, the state would earn little additional money.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 63):
Bankers did not "get bit by it", on the contrary. They've managed to continue with business as usual, quite unbitten by anything.

They did get bit. Quite a few of them lost their shirts. That they didn't learn and are at it again is something else...
 



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5743 posts, RR: 19
Reply 68, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1522 times:

Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 55):
Merkel is also very pragmatic

Is that automatically a bad thing? Hollande was praised couple of posts earlier for being a "man of compromise"... whatever that means.

Quoting aloges (Reply 59):
Kohl screwed up the reunification and Merkel is his student - the economy of the former GDR was annihilated and what assets and/or potential it had was frequently bled dry for short-term profit. Kohl stood by and employed his infamous policy of "aussitzen" (downplay problems, do little to nothing about them and hope that people will stop caring) while the country stumbled from budget freeze to budget freeze.

Hindsight is always 20/20 isn't it?
Considering what a collosal task it was and how relatively smoothly it went, I don't think Kohl deserves such harsh criticism. The present state of German economy is very proof of that success. I am sure the South Koreans would not mind if someone "screwed up" their reuinification one day the way Kohl did German.
The E. German economy was just as a rotten shell which as our was in the late 1980s. The fact that companies failed miserably and virtually instantly to compete on a free market was inevitable and would have happened sooner or later anyway. Negative aspects such as unemployemnt or depopulation of fmr DDR are nothing to brag about, but they seem like a inevitable symptom of quick reunification. Do you think people back in 1989 would be willing to accept anything but immediate reunification?

[Edited 2012-05-07 05:45:05]

User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10930 posts, RR: 37
Reply 69, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1519 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 62):
I am not a French citizen.

Why do you comment on other people's votes when you are not participating?
this is quite inappropriate. I am not going to comment on anyone who has voted for Obama or Romney or whoever else as it is none of my business as I don't live in that country or Cameron or Merkel, etc.

Also I recommend that you avoid visiting the French Riviera. The Alpes-Maritimes are full of evil Sarkozy voters. Overall regional results giving 35,77% for Hollande vs. 64,23% for Sarkozy some towns up to 79% and higher even. Be very afraid. The whole French Riviera is full of evil Sarkozy voters!

  

Quoting aloges (Reply 62):
Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 61):
Hollande is not my president.
Whether you like it or not, he is the President-elect of France

Hollande is not my President the same as Sarkozy is not my President as I never voted for him and for the time being I am under guard of a Prince not a president.

 

Those of us who did not vote Hollande will just have to do with him -,like it or not. He won by a fairly short majority.
Hollande is very far from the 80% votes obtained by President Chirac facing Jean-Marie Le Pen.

Quoting aloges (Reply 62):
I'm sure that put the fear of God into Hollande.

For as much as I know Hollande gives no heck about God - much less about the fear of God as he seems to be very much anti-religious and anti-Christian.

[Edited 2012-05-07 05:42:04]


There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7829 posts, RR: 5
Reply 70, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1496 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 69):
I am not going to comment on anyone who has voted for Obama or Romney or whoever else as it is none of my business as I don't live in that country or Cameron or Merkel, etc.

By that same token why do you care, as you say

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 69):
I am under guard of a Prince not a president.

The problem with having a prince is you can't get ride of him until he dies.


User currently onlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8764 posts, RR: 42
Reply 71, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1489 times:

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 68):
Hindsight is always 20/20 isn't it?

Kohl had eight years after the reunification. He could have started correcting his mistakes in that time, but he chose not to. he was probably busy making promises to political friends and suppoters... you know, those promises that are still more important than the laws of the country that he swore, four times, to uphold.  

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 69):
Why do you comment on other people's votes when you are not participating?

It's also because they are directly important to my own prospects.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 69):
this is quite inappropriate.

No, it's my right to have an opinion and to voice it, as long as it doesn't defame or even threaten anyone.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 69):
I am not going to comment on anyone who has voted for Obama or Romney or whoever else as it is none of my business as I don't live in that country or Cameron or Merkel, etc.

Fine, if you choose to do so, that's your decision. However, nobody else has any sort of duty to make that same decision.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 69):
The Alpes-Maritimes are full of evil Sarkozy voters.

What on Earth possesses you to think that I consider them evil?!

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 69):
he seems to be very much anti-religious and anti-Christian.

It's just a figure of speech... anyway, if any President should abstain from public displays of religiosity, it's the French.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9739 posts, RR: 31
Reply 72, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 1476 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 65):
Exactly. That way, the ruination brought about by decades of (mis)planned economy could have been addressed before every single enterprise was opened up to cannibalisation. But the Kohl government failed to do any of that.
Quoting aloges (Reply 65):
.and where did I say that?

what you say is that you want to replace one planned economy with another planned economy.

It was not the "Treuhand" agency jobs to run the companies. Those few, very few companies in east Germany that had a fraction of a substance left have been taken over by large companies who invested billions, The whole chemical complex near Leipzig, Opel in Eisenach, , the more or less only gem that was really worth something was Jenoptik.

The rest was scrap, take Interflug, there was nothing Lufthansa could use, except some personel.

Quoting aloges (Reply 71):
Kohl had eight years after the reunification. He could have started correcting his mistakes in that time

It was not his bloody business. the government is not here to run companies. From day one the social market economy was there and in that kind of system it is up to the indoividual what to do, how to do it and when. See above for the rules and regulation. The government has absoluteley no business and meanwhile, after more than 20 years, what is your problem? There is industry, there are small businesses and it works. Much better than in some other European countries and that includes parts of France. (Sorry mes amis, but i have to touch the topic at least a bit)



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10930 posts, RR: 37
Reply 73, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 1480 times:

It does not look like the German government will abide to Hollande wanting to rework the EU fiscal pact.
Official transfer of power between Sarkozy and Hollande will take place at the Elysée Presidential Palace on 15 May. After that Hollande will have to do it alone..

France election: Germany rules out reworking EU's 'fiskalpakt'
Germany has ruled out reworking the European Union's "fiskalpakt" despite calls to do so by Francois Holande, France's president-elect.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-out-reworking-EUs-fiskalpakt.html

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 70):
The problem with having a prince is you can't get ride of him until he dies.

Prince Albert is very much a nice, competent, successful; good willed and generous person. I so much wish many of the world's heads of state were like him - only that such success and wealth make a lot of others envious and mis-judging.


 



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently onlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8764 posts, RR: 42
Reply 74, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 1468 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 72):
what you say is that you want to replace one planned economy with another planned economy.

Again, where did I say that?

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 72):
It was not his bloody business. the government is not here to run companies.

And where did I say that it was? I would appreciate if you could stop putting words in my mouth.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 73):
Prince Albert is very much a nice, competent, successful; good willed and generous person. I so much wish many of the world's heads of state were like him - only that such success and wealth make a lot of others envious and mis-judging.

It's pretty easy to be a benevolent monarch when your kingdom is as rich as Monaco.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 73):
France election: Germany rules out reworking EU's 'fiskalpakt'

You don't say... six days before an election in the largest German state (population-wise), the CDU does not revise one of its key policies. I must say that I am utterly surprised.  sarcastic 

[Edited 2012-05-07 06:36:29]


Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6930 posts, RR: 12
Reply 75, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 1465 times:

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 38):
"Progressive"... LOL! Is that what lefties like to call themselves?

Well, LGBT marriage, euthanasia, voting rights for non citizens, are parts of his platform. If that's not progressive, I don't know what it is, but certainly nothing like that existed in the past.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 52):
I cannot see how Mr, Hollande can be called progressive. He will certainly not be able to take communication away from the French people.

Communication is there and still he managed to win. In fact, Sarkozy is the one that wanted to control the internet, implementing such laws as Hadopi and LOPPSI.

A fact is that French people in general don't believe in free markets (and the 2008 crisis didn't help to change our minds). Sarkozy certainly didn't campaign on anything like that or he wouldn't have made it to the run-off of yesterday, Marine Le Pen would have, with her nationalist and socialist platform.

Quoting aloges (Reply 54):
who are the capitalists?

The ones owning the capital. Usually not interested in (direct) political power in France, but a lot of them are friends of Sarkozy's.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8974 posts, RR: 39
Reply 76, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 1445 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 51):
Uh no. Banks also exercise a lot of pressure on the government to weaken regulations. If there had been tougher laws limiting lending to customers, much of the boogaboo wouldn't have happened - in the U.S. as here in Europe. Here the banks demand at least 20% of own funds before you get considered for a mortgage.

If that theory made any sense, we would have seen this type of stuff going on for a long time, way before the handful of years poor lending practices actually went on. US banks had, and returned to right as the crises began, to much stricter lending standards - the real, structural problem is why they dropped them for those years. Your answer is record low interest rates combined with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 51):
And then the banks failed one central tenet of banking: Borrowers do not have to pay back their loan. To insure against this possibility, you can raise interest rates, and keep a register of risky borrowers. This is how you do it. Normally. And now apply this to both house owners there and the country of Greece here, where money-hungry lions were fed with cheap money.

Who cares if the government set up a system you can just unload all your loan on them? It's the flawed system. There is no proper market at work.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 51):
Leftists that say that banks should not be saved may be the better capitalists in that light - both success and failure are core components of capitalism.

Oh but I was staunchly against saving the banks. The leftists were the ones in favor of it.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently onlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8764 posts, RR: 42
Reply 77, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 3 days ago) and read 1446 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 76):
The leftists were the ones in favor of it.

Leftists like Merkel, Bush and Sarkozy?



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently onlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21521 posts, RR: 53
Reply 78, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1439 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 50):
And of course, there is nothing inherently wrong with credit default swaps, short selling, junk bonds, etc. . it was the underlying economic conditions, created by government manipulation of credit markets, that caused all these things to blow up. CDSs or not, it would have blown up one way or another.

Nope. The reckless inflation of total market volume through these increasingly fictitious instruments ("creating" value out of thin air through fraudulent valuation of worthless or nonexistent assets) created the bubble which sucked up debt at unrealistic conditions. Without this mad lemming rush market forces could have had a chance of dealing with regular debt in a less catastrophic way.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 52):
I cannot be held responsible for ever having voted for Mr., schroeder, however, he brought that to the point, there is no "right (conservative)" or (left """progressive""") politics, there is only good politics.

And Russia is a "flawless democracy", as we all know…!   

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 57):
Less state, more freedom is the answer.

This false religion fortunately keeps losing followers as we speak.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 60):
call it what you want, it will cost us %u20AC 500 billion over the years and we should have stayed with the safe nuclear energy.

Ah, right. Too bad that this doesn't exist in the real world, so we'll have to make do with technology that does.  

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 60):
Kohl made the re-unification possible.

True, and that is his primary merit in history.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 60):
That was hard worlk enough.

So you want to give him a free pass on his corruption and on his utter ineptitude in actually performing economic unification? I disagree wholeheartedly.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 68):
Hindsight is always 20/20 isn't it?

If you had been around here back then, you might know that there had been heated debates about the proper course and all the consequences were in fact well known in advance – Kohl just ignored all the warnings for short-term political convenience.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 68):
I don't think Kohl deserves such harsh criticism. The present state of German economy is very proof of that success.

You're probably too young to know, but much of the current success goes back to a combination of the education initiatives of the 1970s, the relatively cooperative labour environment and the policies of the red/green and the subsequent grand coalition. We're still heavily paying for the botched economic unification. Kohl has very little to do with the current boom, if anything.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 63):

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 38):
"Progressive"... LOL! Is that what lefties like to call themselves?

Oh yes. In the anglosphere that's the new leftist party line after the term "liberal" was successfully changed into a pejorative word.

The "anglosphere", as you seem to be calling your much smaller right-wing bubble, has discredited its own economic competence and credibility so thoroughly by now that silly name-calling out of there has little relevance to begin with, with a further dwindling tendency.

Quoting Asturias (Reply 63):
Evidently the word "objective" doesn't mean what you think it means.

Objectively, "conservative" means keeping things at the status quo.

Objectively, "progressive" means developing things forward from the status quo.

Objectively, both are almost direct opposites.

Given the self-appointed "conservative" label for those who advocate leaving the power of wealth as unchecked as possible, the opposing political forces trying to limit that power by democracy and regulations can very well be labeled "progressive" as well.

You're of course free to make more constructive proposals than simply calling anyone a crazy communist who's not following your own track.

Quoting par13del (Reply 66):
So what does these last couple elections tell us about the economic measures that the EU administration has been putting in place?

That it's a lot more fun to spend debt than to pay it back.

And that when austerity measures start to squeeze people down into poverty with little hope of improvement, people will at some point retaliate politically.


France is not in the same situation as Greece, but Hollande will still have to face realities on every level now; Merkel's single-minded austerity focus really needs a healthy dose of perspective, so the new french president may be able to complete her more than just competing with her narrow view if things go well.

Let's hope for the best.


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8974 posts, RR: 39
Reply 79, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1436 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 77):
Leftists like Merkel, Bush and Sarkozy?

Indeed. Oh, and Bush also said deficits don't matter. . wouldn't expect that from someone who supposedly likes markets. Wait, wasn't GWB's dad who derided Reagan's policies as "voodoo economics"?



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8974 posts, RR: 39
Reply 80, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1431 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 78):
Nope. The reckless inflation of total market volume through these increasingly fictitious instruments ("creating" value out of thin air through fraudulent valuation of worthless or nonexistent assets) created the bubble which sucked up debt at unrealistic conditions. Without this mad lemming rush market forces could have had a chance of dealing with regular debt in a less catastrophic way.

That's the side effect. The cause: a system with bad incentives set up and heavily influenced by the US government.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently onlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8764 posts, RR: 42
Reply 81, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1436 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 79):
Indeed.

Oh... I didn't think I'd see the day when someone would call any of those three a leftist. But this does highlight that the idea of grouping people into just these two groups - left and right - is a grotesque oversimplification.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 79):
Oh, and Bush also said deficits don't matter.

I would however expect that from someone who never really knew what he was doing... which describes GWB pretty well.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2156 posts, RR: 16
Reply 82, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1433 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 73):
Prince Albert is very much a nice, competent, successful; good willed and generous person.

He is pretty much the definition of a douchebag and probably embodies the best argument republicans and anti-royalists could ever wish for - and I say that as a conservative royalist myself.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 73):
France election: Germany rules out reworking EU's 'fiskalpakt'

What else would the German authorities say?

Quoting aloges (Reply 74):
You don't say... six days before an election in the largest German state (population-wise), the CDU does not revise one of its key policies. I must say that I am utterly surprised.   


Quite so.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 75):
Well, LGBT marriage, euthanasia, voting rights for non citizens, are parts of his platform. If that's not progressive, I don't know what it is, but certainly nothing like that existed in the past.

That's regressive. Hence the subjective meaning of when leftist liberals call themselves "progressive".

asturias



Tonight we fly
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10930 posts, RR: 37
Reply 83, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1439 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 74):
It's pretty easy to be a benevolent monarch when your kingdom is as rich as Monaco.

When Prince Albert Father Prince Rainier III came into power Monaco was a simple village. The Grimaldi family had money but they could not be called rich at the time. It is by Prince Rainier's ideas, his marriage to world famous actress Grace Kelly and all their ideas and hard work to make their little piece of land famous that all the money came. Prince Albert is doing his best to keep the trend going and attract more wealth and so far he has done a very good job.

Think of all the African (and other) dictators past and present who are rich as anything with huge bank accounts and villas in Switzerland and other parts of the world. These dictators stole the people' money, they starve them, profit from them, exploit them, torture them.

You need to go visit the labour camps outside of Dubai past Jebel Ali and that's only one example.

These monarchs/rulers do not care the least about their people.

Not all wealthy monarchs or rulers are benevolent. If they are it is because they are human.

 Wow!



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2156 posts, RR: 16
Reply 84, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1416 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 78):
The "anglosphere", as you seem to be calling your much smaller right-wing bubble, has discredited its own economic competence and credibility so thoroughly by now that silly name-calling out of there has little relevance to begin with, with a further dwindling tendency.

I know reading comprehension has never been your strong suit, so I'll go slow.

Anglosphere is the bubble created by the collection of people who rely on English speaking media, literature and culture (for bettor or worse) in forming their worldview, opinions etc. Evidently it's neither left nor right and I certainly do not live in it. Can you get anything right, if you try perhaps?

Again, the word you are using evidently doesn't mean what you think it does.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 78):
Objectively, "progressive" means developing things forward from the status quo.

One would have to be completely self-absorbed to fail to notice that the above claim is extremely subjective, since it must include a tautological definition of what is "developing things forward", let alone what the definition of "forward" is.

The definition of forward is quite regressive, from the opposite point of view - *change* by itself is not progress. It is just change. Progress is always subjective.

From the perspective of one person it is progressive to ban homosexual marriage in a country where it is legal to do so, for indeed to that person it is "developing things forward" and it is "conservative" to maintain the status quo of legal homosexual marriage.

Liberals calling themselves progressives are amusing, but when they start believing their own dog-food and consider their opinions to be the objective definition of progress - well one can't roll one's eyes with enough distain to express how pathetic and self-righteous that is.

asturias



Tonight we fly
User currently onlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8764 posts, RR: 42
Reply 85, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1417 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 83):
When Prince Albert Father Prince Rainier III came into power Monaco was a simple village.

You were talking about Albert.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 83):
It is by Prince Rainier's ideas, his marriage to world famous actress Grace Kelly and all their ideas and hard work to make their little piece of land famous that all the money came.

...and legalised gambling
...and the location in one of the most sought-after locations on the planet
...and Monaco's transformation into a tax haven

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 83):
Think of all the African (and other) dictators past and present who are rich as anything with huge bank accounts and villas in Switzerland and other parts of the world.

other parts of the world such as Monaco, I guess

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 83):
You need to go visit the labour camps outside of Dubai past Jebel Ali and that's only one example.

Why would I need to go there? I am not exactly a fan of the way the emirates treat their armies of foreign workers.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 83):
These monarchs/rulers do not care the least about their people.

Oh, the ones in the UAE do. That's why they don't have revolutions in their emirates. The ones they exploit are Indians, Pakistanis and people from other poor nations, in the labour camps that you mentioned.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 83):
Not all wealthy monarchs or rulers are benevolent. If they are it is because they are human.

It's either that or a really rather considerable threat of being deposed if they don't behave. Albert, for instance, would immediately find himself between his rock and a very hard place if he imposed uncommon limits on civil liberties in Monaco. But then again, he doesn't have a reason do to it - the money that his principality is built on is clean enough once he has anything to do with it.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6930 posts, RR: 12
Reply 86, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1394 times:

Quoting Asturias (Reply 82):
That's regressive. Hence the subjective meaning of when leftist liberals call themselves "progressive".

Well, Sarkozy, against all those things, had for main argument that the French people is not ready for them. To me, that means he agrees that this is progressive indeed, just too much for the right-wing folks (a demographic quite older than the left-wingers, by the way, see a correlation there ?). In fact he was for most of these policies on a personal level and wrote it in a couple of books, but says that being president made him realize the people were not ready.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinesomething From United Kingdom, joined May 2011, 1633 posts, RR: 21
Reply 87, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1391 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 67):
The truth is, they may be super rich, there are so few of them that they make up a very tiny fraction of the overall taxable income. You could tax them at 150% and apart from quenching the hatred of some, the state would earn little additional money.

The top 1% of incomes pay for about 25% of the entire income tax revenue in Germany. The ''Bush era tax cuts'' for the richest Americans amount to about $42b. annually. At the same time, the bottom 25% of earners (in Germany) spend somewhere between 60-80% of their income through taxes (sales taxes, energy taxes, etc.). The richest 1% pay about 20-30%.

The political right in Europe is trying to pander to big business. Ireland was probably the most aggressive example of this strategy and their current economical situation, like that of the USA, are living proof of the viability of blind trust in economical equations. The political left on the other hand dreams of fairy tale landscapes that are never to be realized.

Voting 'conservative' might very well feel like voting for the bad guys; but voting 'liberal' is voting for the fool. I am happy Hollande won. The negative economic ramifications won't affect me, and the positive social changes are something to be truly happy about.



..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
User currently onlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8764 posts, RR: 42
Reply 88, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1377 times:

Quoting something (Reply 87):
The political left on the other hand dreams of fairy tale landscapes that are never to be realized.

Well, can you blame them for dreaming of the things that the previous generation (let's say current pensioners who receive their money from the public funds) does get?



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9739 posts, RR: 31
Reply 89, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1365 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 78):
And Russia is a "flawless democracy", as we all know…!

This sentence is as stupid as saying that the moon is made oif cheese. besides, not Russia but Putin was meant.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 78):
This false religion fortunately keeps losing followers as we speak.

It is not a religion, it is reality, something socialists and social democrates and most other left wingers do not accept.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 78):
Ah, right. Too bad that this doesn't exist in the real world, so we'll have to make do with technology that does.

It does. Nuclear energy has a proven record of safety in germany and all over the world with the mentioned 2 excfeptions. Three Mile Island proved that the containment works. All other opiniuons are green fairy tales.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 78):
So you want to give him a free pass on his corruption and on his utter ineptitude in actually performing economic unification? I disagree wholeheartedly.

What corruption? He has not put a single cent into his own pockets. And, who am I to give him a free pass? Do you give a free pass to the Honeckers and all that corrupt SED mafia and that lady in Vienna who still keeps the money the SED has stolen from East Germany while they owned that part of Germany, stashed away?

Quoting aloges (Reply 62):

It wasn't Kohl alone who made the reunification possible. But it was his government that ruined it royally by turning the five newly created states into a free-for-all for businessmen with less than honest intentions. The resulting problems continue to plague Germany to this day.
Quoting aloges (Reply 74):
Again, where did I say that?

see above and read the other answers I gave again. The moment the 4+2 treaty went into effect, the constitution went into effect in the 5 new lands. That meant free enterprise and precluded another planned economy.

When you say that the Kohl government "ruined it royaly" you make 2 mistakes, the first one is that you assume there was something left which could be ruined. with the few exceptions I mentioned there was nothing left, the SED has done a damn good job to ruin that part of our country, not Kohl. and the second mistake is that a democratic government has any legal possibilitis to keep people from gettng screwed by people with dis-honest intentions, as you put it. One of the advantages of our legal system is that you usually can be prosecuted only for what you have done, not what you intend to do. The nice sentence "Der Blick geht immer nur zur Stirn, niemals ins Gehirn" says it all. Translation roughly, one cannot look into people's mind.

Don't blame a government for that, we should be proud that no one can be jailed here for some intentions which cannot be proven.



Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2156 posts, RR: 16
Reply 90, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1351 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 86):
Well, Sarkozy, against all those things, had for main argument that the French people is not ready for them. To me, that means he agrees that this is progressive indeed, just too much for the right-wing folks (a demographic quite older than the left-wingers, by the way, see a correlation there ?).

Certainly one could interpret such sentiment as an indication that the topic is somehow "progressive", however imagine other political ideals, such as the complete dismantlement of labor unions or the complete privatization of all state owned operations - and French politician "M. L'Enfant" would today proclaim that the French people are not ready for change of that kind, - well, then that must then make them "progressive", since society isn't ready for them. It's not progress you or I may want, but it is change and it is dramatic and it is progressive if one is in support of those changes.

An alternative interpretation of: "France is not ready for these ideas" isn't necessarily an indication that these are objectively progressive ideas, rather it could be a diplomatic way of saying: "that's an idea I don't agree with and will dismiss it with a simple deflection".

There isn't anything inherently progressive in an objective way in the policies of the left, liberals or those that call themselves "progressive" and sometimes they're fighting for the status quo more than anyone who considers himself "conservative". Such as a "progressive" fighting for the protection and rights of labor unions (conserving the status quo) and the "conservative" fighting to dismantle the same labor unions (destroying the status quo).

As mentioned before, this label "progressive" which the liberal left has given itself is a result of the anglosphere making the term "liberal" an epithet (even though the term "liberal" is quite neutral in most non-anglo countries).

It's similar to to the pro-life/pro-choice labeling in the USA, neither being an objectively true description of either group or a fitting description of the opposing group (which would be anti-life and anti-choice according to these self-prescribed labels)

Thus the label of progressives is fine, as long as you guys aren's so disconnected from reality that you think it is an objective description of policy (or worse think that it is strange people point this disconnect out).

It is true, however that more "old" people are inclined to have more "conservative" opinions, but at the same time it is a logical fallacy to interpret something else out if it then just that. Older people are, were and will always be more conservative. It isn't a trend towards more liberalism with time, it's more a stable constant of age making the human soul more set in its ways.

(to be fair, it is equally out-of-touch with reality for a conservative to claim that his political views are objectively conservative)

asturias



Tonight we fly
User currently onlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8764 posts, RR: 42
Reply 91, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 1350 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 89):
see above and read the other answers I gave again.

Oh well... I was hoping to find out where I said that the ideal solution for the five new states would have been a planned economy. I guess I won't.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 89):
the second mistake is that a democratic government has any legal possibilitis to keep people from gettng screwed by people with dis-honest intentions, as you put it.

Ah... you may have forgot about the crime called "Bildung krimineller Vereinigungen", just off the top of my head. I'm not saying that bleeding the former GDR completely dry after it had been left barely alive by the SED was criminal, but that it was government incompetence that led to it.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 89):
Don't blame a government for that, we should be proud that no one can be jailed here for some intentions which cannot be proven.

Who said anything about jail?!

Look, a special economic area could have been set up. We'll never know whether it would have worked better than the bonanza of the early 90s, but we do know that that didn't work - if you're not self-employed, you can see evidence of that on every single payroll of yours.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3845 posts, RR: 11
Reply 92, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1332 times:

Quoting something (Reply 87):
I am happy Hollande won. The negative economic ramifications won't affect me, and the positive social changes are something to be truly happy about.

Well, it's easy to say you like the new orchestra if you won't on the boat when it sinks...
  



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10930 posts, RR: 37
Reply 93, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 21 hours ago) and read 1324 times:

Happy Hollande supporters celebrating their candidate's victory last night Place de la Bastille in Paris.



=

http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo250/parisquilts/f5384fb2.jpg

=



=




 



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6930 posts, RR: 12
Reply 94, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 1281 times:

Quoting Asturias (Reply 90):
Certainly one could interpret such sentiment as an indication that the topic is somehow "progressive", however imagine other political ideals, such as the complete dismantlement of labor unions or the complete privatization of all state owned operations - and French politician "M. L'Enfant" would today proclaim that the French people are not ready for change of that kind, - well, then that must then make them "progressive", since society isn't ready for them. It's not progress you or I may want, but it is change and it is dramatic and it is progressive if one is in support of those changes.

Except of course that labor unions and state owned operations didn't exist for most of humanity's time on this planet, so your example of progress is just going back in time a couple centuries.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently onlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8764 posts, RR: 42
Reply 95, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1273 times:

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 93):
Happy Hollande supporters celebrating their candidate's victory last night Place de la Bastille in Paris.

Are you unhappy because they lit some fireworks or because they're looking forward to a Kärcher-less future of the suburbs?



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10930 posts, RR: 37
Reply 96, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 19 hours ago) and read 1262 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 95):
Are you unhappy because they lit some fireworks or because they're looking forward to a Kärcher-less future of the suburbs?

You are wasting your time on useless speculating.

A was a mucktard who wrecked the economy so lets vote for mucktard B who is controlled by the same pastards who controlled mucktard A.

I am not concerned.

After me the Deluge.

  



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently onlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8764 posts, RR: 42
Reply 97, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1247 times:

I continue to be impressed.

Anyway, for those who understand French, some humorous advertising was published just after the results. The rental car company Sixt was among the first, as usual you might say if you're somewhat familiar with their advertising:
http://www.europe1.fr/Politique/Holl...t-Sarkozy-des-fils-de-pub-1072811/



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10930 posts, RR: 37
Reply 98, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 1196 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 47):
Currently there are parties across the country, with popular artists like Yannick Noah offering a show.

Yannick Noah the former French tennis champion who fled to Switzerland for tax evasion purposes?
I wonder if he will agree to be taxed 75% of his income bracket... not talking about paying back all the money that he owes to the French tax services?

http://finance-economie.com/blog/201...de-va-t-il-payer-la-tranche-de-75/

  

Yannick Noah, évadé fiscal, soutenant François Hollande va-t-il payer la tranche de 75% ?

Rappelons que Yannick Noah vivait en Suisse jusqu’à il y a quelques mois, pour payer moins d’impôts, jusqu’à ce que la loi change il y a quelques mois, et qu’il doive désormais régulariser sa situation avec le FISC Français.

http://www.microsofttranslator.com/

Monaco wouldn't do him any good as all French citizens residing in Monaco must pay income tax the same as if they live in France. There's no tax evasion in Monaco for the French.

  

[Edited 2012-05-07 14:04:23]


There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6930 posts, RR: 12
Reply 99, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 1169 times:

Why the rancor, if you didn't have a horse in the race ?

I never heard of that website, but that's not really what happened. He lived in Switzerland in the early 90s, almost 20 years ago, not "until a few months ago". Since then he is battling against the state because a law is being retroactively applied on him, something that isn't exactly common, and he just lost his case, that's what happened recently. He payed French taxes during his tennis career and since 1993 or 1994 too, and yes, he said publicly that he agreed with the 75% tax.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2156 posts, RR: 16
Reply 100, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 1070 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 94):
Except of course that labor unions and state owned operations didn't exist for most of humanity's time on this planet, so your example of progress is just going back in time a couple centuries.

Change does not equal progress, and unless one would claim that humans don't make mistakes, there's bound to be many many things that are man made that are simply bad ideas and not in any way shape or form possible to describe as progress.

Thus correcting mistakes is progress. Even if it does remove something that didn't previously exist. Progress can indeed be to go "back in time a couple of centuries".

In fact many environmentalist would consider that *immense* progress.

Are you actually arguing the same nonsense as Klaus that leftists who call themselves "progressive" are objectively so?

Fine, enjoy that.

asturias



Tonight we fly
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6930 posts, RR: 12
Reply 101, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 1033 times:

Yes I am. The UMP and Sarkozy tried to appear as progressive for the last 5 years, with the same arguments as you, the left wants to keep their social gains so they're the conservatives and we are progress. It didn't work (this isn't the first election they lose, the UMP has lost every election since 2007, now the left has the senate for the first time in history, every region of the country but one, most major cities including Paris...), so they went back to calling themselves conservative that want to keep things as they are against the follies of the progressive left. For the last 10 years they talked about the stupidity of the 35 hours work week, how it hampered our economy. They were in power during all that time, but they never dared to repel the law. Maybe it would be progress to radically change our country, but I'm sure I don't want the kind of progress that Germany has.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2156 posts, RR: 16
Reply 102, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1006 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 101):
Yes I am.

Oh my.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 101):
The UMP and Sarkozy tried to appear as progressive for the last 5 years, with the same arguments as you, the left wants to keep their social gains so they're the conservatives and we are progress.

Uh huh.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 101):
It didn't work

What Sarkozy or the UMP say they are or how they fare in French politics or policymaking isn't relevant directly, but one can look at a particular policy of the UMP (or whatever party or politician) and *objectively* determine whether that particular policy is progressive or not.

People who say they are "progressive" (meaning left wing liberals) are no more consistently progressive (objectively) than a "conservative" is consistently and objectively conservative.

Furthermore, it is without a doubt completely subjective what left wing liberals call progress or to be progressive, which is another discussion entirely.

A conservative can easily be progressive both subjectively and objectively on particular issues or subjectively only. The exact same applies to anyone calling himself "progressive". Despite having some policies that are objectively progressive, they don't have to be liberal or leftist, since progress isn't something the left has a monopoly on.

Then there are the middle-of-the-road pragmatists, who definitely consider *themselves* to be the only objective progressives, though they don't always call themselves that, they certainly have a stronger claim to the term than leftists if it is to be applied objectively.

Especially since they're the least likely to let the sort of ideology found on the left and right guide their policy principles, rather they'd be inclined to find the most balanced and indeed progressive way to solve any kind of policy issue - one that benefits the most and truly progresses society away from the dogmas of the left and right.

So no, there's no way the left can call itself objectively progressive outside secluded groups of liberals in a orgy of mental masturbation. The centrists have the best claim of such a title (and they apparently don't want it as much as leftist liberals) perhaps because the right and the center aren't afraid to present themselves on policy - instead of wishful thinking of what they "should" be viewed as.

In their mind, everyone is progressive in one way or another, everyone is the good guy and everyone is has the best answer - but only liberal leftists (apparently, since I've never heard any of them actually claim this before) seem to be so deep in a group psychosis that they actually believe themselves to be objectively progressive.

That is nothing short of amazing and scary at the same time.

asturias



Tonight we fly
User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6924 posts, RR: 34
Reply 103, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 987 times:

No big surprise, given the longstanding bond between Islamists and socialists and their anti-capitalist stance in common but that’s a monster number. Congrats France. Last one out turn out the lights. Your election will change the state of your country, the EU and possibly the world. And you blew it. Bigtime.


http://www.lavie.fr/actualite/93-des...is-hollande-07-05-2012-27212_3.php

Quote:
93% of Muslims have voted for Francois Holland
A study released by the Institute for Surveys OpinionWay for the second round of elections finds a massive coalition of Muslims for the Socialist Party. It shows a rejection of Sarkozy-ism, but not all the parts of the values of the right, notably on the societal questions on homosexuality.
The Muslims called for change, and they received it. According to a study of the electoral body by OpinionWay and Fidicuial for May 6 by Le Figaro, from 10,000 voters, 93% of the believers had slipped a Francois Hollande ballot in their envelopes. Only 7% of them voted for Nicolas Sarkozy.


User currently onlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8764 posts, RR: 42
Reply 104, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 981 times:

Quoting Asturias (Reply 102):
So no, there's no way the left can call itself objectively progressive outside secluded groups of liberals in a orgy of mental masturbation.

Ah, the pre-pubescent insults are in... I had been wondering what was taking them so long.

Quoting slider (Reply 103):
No big surprise, given the longstanding bond between Islamists and socialists and their anti-capitalist stance in common but that’s a monster number.

   It might be time to wait with the doom and gloom at least until next week, when the transfer of power will take place. If Hollande does introduce the death penalty for apostasy and other assorted goodies (that was irony, by the way) from hardline Islamic law, we will have something to discuss... if not, you might have got his intentions somewhat wrong.  



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6930 posts, RR: 12
Reply 105, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 973 times:

Well, Sarkozy made a far-right campaign with xenophobic and anti-Islam tones, did you expect Muslims to vote for him anyway ? It doesn't mean at all that there is a "bond" between Muslims and the socialist party.

As for Islamists, they're despised by everyone including the majority of Muslims. Hollande has proposed to change the constitution to include the separation of religion and the state in it, since currently it's only a law. Socialism is not exactly an ideology friendly with religion, you know, opium of the people and all that.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3845 posts, RR: 11
Reply 106, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 936 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 103):
No big surprise, given the longstanding bond between Islamists and socialists and their anti-capitalist stance in common but that’s a monster number.

The main problem with that is that it fuels hard right parties which prone xenophobia and anti muslim policies. They also want the return of the Franc, extreme protectionism, segregation of France from the EU and other such dangerous nonsense.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 105):
Socialism is not exactly an ideology friendly with religion, you know, opium of the people and all that.

It's much friendlier to it than the UMP at least. That's pretty much what their campaign was based on: We're friendly and nice and not like Sarkozy...



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6930 posts, RR: 12
Reply 107, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 917 times:

Sarkozy (and Guéant and others) had a discourse in the campaign that made Muslims vote Hollande. But Sarkozy was also the one that wanted a French Islam and propped up questionable leaders, helped build mosques, etc. As usual he made and said everything and its opposite.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineGrahamHill From France, joined Mar 2007, 2869 posts, RR: 2
Reply 108, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 903 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 107):
Sarkozy (and Guéant and others) had a discourse in the campaign that made Muslims vote Hollande

He's been badly advised by Patrick Buisson. He is the one who is responsible for that strategy. I was actually surprised Sarko would listen to that dude...



"A learned fool is more foolish than an ignorant one" - Moliere
User currently offlineAsturias From Spain, joined Apr 2006, 2156 posts, RR: 16
Reply 109, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 834 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 104):
Ah, the pre-pubescent insults are in... I had been wondering what was taking them so long.

What kind of person liberal leftist considers masturbation to be an insult? Regardless, if any connotation to sexuality makes you blush or think of puberty, then I'll replace the phrase with "collective back-patting" - I wasn't out to insult anyone.

A group of likeminded individuals commenting to each other how their political view is defined by objective progress in society is nothing less than delusional and a great way for people to understand that is to imagine a group of people one does not agree with, doing exactly that.

In fact, in that spirit I'm declaring right wing conservatives to be objectively progressive. They are the most progressive people, absolutely and objectively. They think so themselves, so it must be true!

ast.



Tonight we fly
User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6924 posts, RR: 34
Reply 110, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 822 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 104):
It might be time to wait with the doom and gloom at least until next week, when the transfer of power will take place. If Hollande does introduce the death penalty for apostasy and other assorted goodies (that was irony, by the way) from hardline Islamic law, we will have something to discuss... if not, you might have got his intentions somewhat wrong.

I don't care about his intentions--I can only decipher what he's said and what he has done and will do. But Hollande hasn't taken any hard line on the Islamic issue. that alone speaks volumes. At least Sarkozy had the balls to speak out--rightfully so about it--even at his own electoral peril.

Quoting francoflier (Reply 106):
The main problem with that is that it fuels hard right parties which prone xenophobia and anti muslim policies. They also want the return of the Franc, extreme protectionism, segregation of France from the EU and other such dangerous nonsense.

Forget even going that hard right--some of the French that I've talked to just want them to either assimilate or leave. The place is OVERRUN by Muslims who are taking over and the French can reasonably want to preserve their way of life without being branded as racists, radicals, what have you. The problem is that the dialogue these days doesn't permit that rational middle ground. France is in a bad way and, no matter how much you may have liked/disliked the other options, Hollande is the worst possible choice in this regard.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 105):
Socialism is not exactly an ideology friendly with religion, you know, opium of the people and all that.

Ah, but I would correct you. Hardline totalitarianism is very much the same umbrella as far left socialist/marxist/communist doctrines and islam. Both are all-encompassing doctrines, as history would clear indicate. In WWII there was a very clear alliance between nazism and islam; the amount of scholarship on this is really starting to be delved into more then ever now and the parallels and differences are coming to light.

So it's not terribly unreasonable or even unlikely to think a far left secular government would be compatible with islam.


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10930 posts, RR: 37
Reply 111, posted (2 years 7 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 816 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 105):
Well, Sarkozy made a far-right campaign with xenophobic and anti-Islam tones

We got the message.
For you Sarkozy is worse than the Devil in person and everything about Sarkozy is something coming from Hell while living in France with Hollande as President will be Heaven on Earth.
I hope the French Socialist Party will highly reward you for such zealous lobbying in favour of their now elected candidate.

The new President and his "companion" are making the news around the world.

France
Meet Valérie Trierweiler, France’s Unmarried ‘First Lady’
A brief introduction to the woman accompanying President-elect François Hollande to Élysée Palace later this month

Valérie Trierweiler, 47, the partner — or “companion” as she prefers to be called — of new French President-elect François Hollande, is already relatively familiar to the French public, as a feisty journalist for Paris Match magazine and from work as a political talk-show presenter.

Hollande insists that, unlike his predecessor, he will not have a speedy marriage to his partner, who is to be the first unmarried Première Dame in France’s history. She therefore cannot officially hold the First Lady title, but her dedication to pursuing her own career after her partner takes control on May 15 as the first French Socialist Prime Minister in nearly two decades suggests that she’s not the kind to mind.

http://globalspin.blogs.time.com/201...rierweiler-frances-new-first-lady/

He fathered 4 children from former Presidential candidate Segolene Royal who was never his wife so I doubt he will marry Rotweiler... sorry... Trierweiler.

  

[Edited 2012-05-09 10:15:53]


There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently onlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8764 posts, RR: 42
Reply 112, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 717 times:

This is sort of off topic, but anyway:

Quoting helvknight (Reply 25):
"Mommy" has her own problems, looking at the elections in Schleswig Holstein.
Quoting aloges (Reply 26):
...and the upcoming ones in Nordrhein-Westfalen. I'll be doing my part to make life just a little bit more difficult for her.
Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 53):
Me too, me too!

Well, that has definitely gone well!   



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10930 posts, RR: 37
Reply 113, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 709 times:

Quoting aloges (Reply 112):
Well, that has definitely gone well!

Yup looks like the CDU got beaten flat out in this populous state in favour of Social Dems/Greens.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-18048942

I bet this will suit French President-elect F. Hollande rather well.



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
German Presidential Election 2010 posted Wed Jun 30 2010 15:57:30 by LTU932
2012 Presidential Election - Nominate A Republican posted Sun Nov 16 2008 08:35:32 by 1337Delta764
Presidential Election Strategy #1 posted Wed Mar 5 2008 07:34:31 by RJdxer
CNN & The Presidential Election posted Fri Feb 1 2008 19:40:53 by JetBlueGuy2006
Biya Wins Cameroon Presidential Election posted Wed Jul 25 2007 21:28:27 by MaverickM11
Eddie Murphy Not To Run For Presidential Election! posted Wed Jan 24 2007 20:27:59 by RootsAir
Official Venezuelan Presidential Election Thread posted Sun Dec 3 2006 04:36:35 by Luisde8cd
MAD/LPA Meet - The 2nd Round posted Tue Jul 18 2006 19:21:27 by EZYAirbus
The Official Mexican Presidential Election Thread. posted Sat Jul 1 2006 04:54:26 by SFOMEX
US Presidential Election System posted Mon Oct 17 2005 20:48:28 by Jush