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Terrorist Plot Thwarted - But Homeland Sec Didn't  
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5675 posts, RR: 10
Posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2746 times:

So a plot was apparently thwarted but Homeland Security didn't have anything to do with it and in fact issued a statement that they didn't know anything and weren't aware of anything. And this is what is wrong with the transportation security to defend against actual threats in the USA.

The TSA and Homeland Sec don't do it, it is the FBI and the CIA that do the real work with intelligence networks and proactive investigations.

Quote:
U.S. and international intelligence agencies have broken up an attempt to blow up a U.S.-bound jetliner, a U.S. counterterrorism official told CNN on Monday.

"This is a success story," the U.S. official said, adding that an explosive device was recovered.

A Yemeni official told CNN the threat came around last week's one-year anniversary of the killing of Osama bin Laden. The target was not specific, the Yemeni official said.

The device has the hallmarks of previous bombing attempts by members of al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula including those used in the attempted bombing of a U.S. airliner on Christmas Day in 2009 and against a senior Saudi official earlier in 2009, according to the U.S official. Both devices were associated with Ibrahim Hassan al Asiri, the official said.

The funny thing is that Homeland has issued a statement where they state they know nothing but that they must be valuable because there is a "threat".

Quote:
Matt Chandler, a spokesman for the Department of Homeland Security, released a statement saying that they had no specific threat about an active plot against the U.S.

The Department of Homeland Security statement added that the incident showed that enemies still have a high interest in targeting air transportation, which underscores the continued need for increased security at airports.

The statement reads:

“We have no specific, credible information regarding an active terrorist plot against the U.S. at this time, although we continue to monitor efforts by al-Qaeda and its affiliates to carry out terrorist attacks, both in the Homeland and abroad.
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/07...-blow-up-u-s-bound-plane-thwarted/

If they know nothing, how are they providing true value?

Tugg


I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
38 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2453 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2598 times:

Yet another example that validates how useless the TSA really is.

It was stated some time ago that the approach to screening the way that the Israelis do it would be unrealistic in other countries, but adapting it in some form would be a helluva lot more affective.   



Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlinestasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3283 posts, RR: 6
Reply 2, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2549 times:

Commentary on the effectiveness of the Department of Homeland Security should be in the Non-Av forum.


"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlinePC12Fan From United States of America, joined Jan 2007, 2453 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2491 times:

Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 2):

Point taken. Will suggest deletion.



Just when I think you've said the stupidest thing ever, you keep talkin'!
User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3151 posts, RR: 7
Reply 4, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2467 times:

Quoting PC12Fan (Reply 1):
Yet another example that validates how useless the TSA really is.

I didn't know that was the TSA's function. The plot was thwarted long before the underwear showed up at airport security.


User currently offlinebennett123 From United Kingdom, joined Aug 2004, 7690 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2467 times:

Perhaps the DHS statement is a cunning plan.

They pretend that the DHS is useless to lure our enemies into a false sense of security.


User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2259 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 2274 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 4):
I didn't know that was the TSA's function. The plot was thwarted long before the underwear showed up at airport security.

  
I hate the TSA as much as the next guy, but this has nothing to do with them. It is not their job to investigate potential terrorist plots, it is their job to screen passengers and luggage at the airport.


User currently offlinetharanga From United States of America, joined Apr 2009, 1865 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 2088 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 6):
It is not their job to investigate potential terrorist plots, it is their job to screen passengers and luggage at the airport.

The point being made is that the investigation and counterintelligence ahead of time is much more effective and productive than needle-in-a-haystack screening at the airport.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25741 posts, RR: 50
Reply 8, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1941 times:

Last time I checked, TSA was not in the business of running spies in Yemen.


From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 1928 times:

Quoting tharanga (Reply 7):
The point being made is that the investigation and counterintelligence ahead of time is much more effective and productive than needle-in-a-haystack screening at the airport

No security worth its name relies on a single layer. Do you lock your door at home or do you rely on the police to find every potential burglar before they get to you?


User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5675 posts, RR: 10
Reply 10, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1817 times:

To me the big issue is not TSA it is more that Homeland also didn't know anything and in fact it SHOULD know about things like this. That is its job after all.

Quoting cmf (Reply 9):
No security worth its name relies on a single layer. Do you lock your door at home or do you rely on the police to find every potential burglar before they get to you?

Do I allow the police to randomly stop and "screen" me to make sure I am not doing anything improper? Uhh no. The public can choose to lock doors or if we wish, leave them unlocked. Strangely we trust the public to do the right thing..... actually we don't, we are required to trust that the public will do the right thing and are not allowed to dig into things unless there is a valid reason.

Quite frankly there is more risk of terrible destruction out in those free streets than in the airport and getting on planes. And it has been proven that the current security circus does not stop much and misses a lot that it is supposed to stop. It has also been shown that it can be circumvented relatively easily. There is just no way that we can prevent a disaster from occurring again with much of the in airport "security" processes currently in place. Some if it is fine, it does basic screening and does not impede the flow of traffic and does not intrude on the rights of US citizens, other parts of the process however greatly impeded flow and intrude on the passengers and don't add real value to the process.

I am not saying it should all be gotten rid of but the monster the TSA has grown into needs to end and reverse.

My question always comes back to: where do we get the best value for the money we spend? And from everything that I have read and seen, we would be much better off spending the $20 odd-billion a year on investigative and preventative and behind the scenes efforts than what we are currently doing. We are actually costing significant billions more in addition to the directly funded billions.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlinemax550 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1154 posts, RR: 0
Reply 11, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1722 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 10):

To me the big issue is not TSA it is more that Homeland also didn't know anything and in fact it SHOULD know about things like this. That is its job after all.

Homeland Security said they had no credible threat, not that they knew nothing about this.

Quoting tugger (Reply 10):
My question always comes back to: where do we get the best value for the money we spend? And from everything that I have read and seen, we would be much better off spending the $20 odd-billion a year on investigative and preventative and behind the scenes efforts than what we are currently doing. We are actually costing significant billions more in addition to the directly funded billions.

That has almost nothing to do with your original post and is barely aviation related. Should be in non-av.


User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3151 posts, RR: 7
Reply 12, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1682 times:

Quoting tharanga (Reply 7):
Quoting Polot (Reply 6):
It is not their job to investigate potential terrorist plots, it is their job to screen passengers and luggage at the airport.

The point being made is that the investigation and counterintelligence ahead of time is much more effective and productive than needle-in-a-haystack screening at the airport.
Quoting tugger (Reply 10):
To me the big issue is not TSA it is more that Homeland also didn't know anything and in fact it SHOULD know about things like this. That is its job after all.

We don't know what went on behind the scenes. Bottom line is they stopped it, as did they stop the potential bombing of the NW A330 near DTW and the cargo plane threats.

So every serious threat to US aviation has been thwarted so far in almost 11 years since 9/11. Say all you want about the TSA and DHS, but apparently someone has been doing something right.


User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5675 posts, RR: 10
Reply 13, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 1624 times:

Quoting max550 (Reply 11):
That has almost nothing to do with your original post and is barely aviation related.

That was the main point of the original post. Sorry if I was not clear. The cost to aviation and what is its impact? Is it helping or not? It has serious costs and implications for civil aviation and how it functions. You must agree, how can you not? Homeland should be "in on it" and be able to release a statement of some kind if there is a threat to "homeland security". Shouldn't they?

This was an apparently successful intervention of a terrorist plot by those other very capable agencies that he USA has had for a long time. They add real value and have real, demonstrable success. These agencies should be leading the charge or they should at least be communicating with and coordinating with Homeland Security so it can add its value. But the more time that passes the more I ask: "How much value does it add? Why do we need it?"

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 12):
So every serious threat to US aviation has been thwarted so far in almost 11 years since 9/11. Say all you want about the TSA and DHS, but apparently someone has been doing something right.

Yes, there have been a lot of people and agencies "doing something right" and making a real difference. But I do question the impact of the public show on the cost to aviation and the flying public when it is apparent that the real success is from these other actions that are going on and doing real work and having real effects.

Tugg

[Edited 2012-05-07 17:41:43]

[Edited 2012-05-07 17:45:04]


I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1512 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 10):
Do I allow the police to randomly stop and "screen" me to make sure I am not doing anything improper? Uhh no. The public can choose to lock doors or if we wish, leave them unlocked. Strangely we trust the public to do the right thing..... actually we don't, we are required to trust that the public will do the right thing and are not allowed to dig into things unless there is a valid reason.

Poor point. If you want to focus on the screening instead of the locks then just turn to the security employed at many buildings. Ever entered a court house? Entered a major data center? I get patted down and my bags opened. Everything I take in get tested for explosive residue. After more than 10 years I'm on first name basis with most of them and still need to show ID each time I enter.

Probably useless since police will find everyone before they get there. Love to get back the parking spaces next to the building.

Quoting tugger (Reply 10):
Quite frankly there is more risk of terrible destruction out in those free streets than in the airport and getting on planes. And it has been proven that the current security circus does not stop much and misses a lot that it is supposed to stop.

No doubt there is much that can be done to improve it. But there are very few constructive suggestions. Just a lot of complaints that it takes too much time and they miss too much. Somehow the expectation is they will find everything without touching or using any kind of technical equipment because it is too invasive. Because they would never use a kid to carry in knifes or explosives. Nor would the kidnap a pilots family to make the pilot carry in weapons or explosives. No all we need to know is what religion they confess to. And that we can easily figure out long before they get to the airport.

Meantime I get checked each time I go in to the data center. By people who know me. And the same happened at the nuclear power plant even though I was authorized to work on the security system all so many years ago.


User currently offlinemax550 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 1154 posts, RR: 0
Reply 15, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1439 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 13):
That was the main point of the original post. Sorry if I was not clear. The cost to aviation and what is its impact? Is it helping or not? It has serious costs and implications for civil aviation and how it functions. You must agree, how can you not? Homeland should be "in on it" and be able to release a statement of some kind if there is a threat to "homeland security". Shouldn't they?

This was an apparently successful intervention of a terrorist plot by those other very capable agencies that he USA has had for a long time. They add real value and have real, demonstrable success. These agencies should be leading the charge or they should at least be communicating with and coordinating with Homeland Security so it can add its value. But the more time that passes the more I ask: "How much value does it add? Why do we need it?"

That's an interesting discussion but it has very little to do with the original topic. The terrorist plot that was thwarted had very little to do with the Dept. of Homeland Security, what more are you expecting them to say? I'm not defending them but investigating terror plots is not their purpose.

Of course there's a cost and impact to aviation but that's a totally different topic than this specific terrorist plot.


User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21544 posts, RR: 59
Reply 16, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1415 times:

Quoting Polot (Reply 6):
I hate the TSA as much as the next guy, but this has nothing to do with them. It is not their job to investigate potential terrorist plots, it is their job to screen passengers and luggage at the airport.

But that's the point. Shoe bomber, underwear bomber, underwear 2, they were foreign nationals, boarding at foreign airports. Yet the TSA harasses old ladies leaving Maui, who obviously came to Maui to meet up with explosives experts disguised champion paddle boarders.

It's misplaced priorities and misplaced resources in the name of security, but really being used as a way around the Constitution to look for money and drugs.

And the lamest part is that most airports in the USA still don't have full scanner implementation, and in just about every instance, I am able to actively choose a line that uses the old metal detectors. I'm just very coy about it. And often they say "there are 4 lines, that one is shorter" and I just act like I didn't hear and continue in the longer line and the person behind me goes to the backscatter.

Are terrorists not aware enough to do the same?



Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
User currently offlinePolot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 2259 posts, RR: 1
Reply 17, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1405 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 16):
But that's the point. Shoe bomber, underwear bomber, underwear 2, they were foreign nationals, boarding at foreign airports. Yet the TSA harasses old ladies leaving Maui, who obviously came to Maui to meet up with explosives experts disguised champion paddle boarders.

So, to be clear, you are advocating for the elimination of all security at US airports?


User currently offlineBoeingGuy From United States of America, joined Dec 2010, 3151 posts, RR: 7
Reply 18, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1315 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Reply 16):
But that's the point. Shoe bomber, underwear bomber, underwear 2, they were foreign nationals, boarding at foreign airports. Yet the TSA harasses old ladies leaving Maui, who obviously came to Maui to meet up with explosives experts disguised champion paddle boarders.

Not misplaced at all. So if you know that the TSA isn't going to screen old ladies leaving Maui, and cute little babies, where would you then put the explosives if you were the bad guy? You might plant a guy disguised as a champion paddle boarder Maui who will give the explosives to the terrorist plant disguised as the old lady, who is pretending to be an innocent old lady at Maui.


User currently offlineghifty From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 891 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 7 hours ago) and read 1197 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 10):
Do I allow the police to randomly stop and "screen" me to make sure I am not doing anything improper? Uhh no.

Allow? The streets are different than the TSA. To an extent, that administration and many other administrations are above the Bill of Rights. They set the rules, and the rule is if you're flying you'll be procedurally stopped and screened (there's nothing "random" about that). Sucks? Yeah. But that's how American gov't works.

Quoting tugger (Reply 10):
Quite frankly there is more risk of terrible destruction out in those free streets than in the airport and getting on planes.

This is true.



Fly Delta Jets
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13138 posts, RR: 15
Reply 20, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1054 times:

Per recent news reports on this found bomb, the scary things are that it apparently was metal free and could be put into underwear. It is not sure if this device could by located by current TSA standard methods. While it was fortunate that this device was found by the CIA and other intelligence services, its discovery raises questions how our current security systems could detect such a device. Since modern TSA security techniques are changed after discovering another bomb device or an attempt to use one, I guess we are going to see soon even more intrusive, offensive and time consuming TSA procedures to get on an aircraft, with more costs and more discouraged from air travel.

User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3655 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1036 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 20):
the scary things are that it apparently was metal free and could be put into underwear. It is not sure if this device could by located by current TSA standard methods.

Aren't the full body scans / groping in place just for that? Otherwise, why not use the metal detectors now?


User currently offlineaa757first From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3350 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1005 times:

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 4):
I didn't know that was the TSA's function. The plot was thwarted long before the underwear showed up at airport security.

The point is that airport security screening does not have a very good yield rate. The effective and best way to keep us safe is with state-of-the-art intelligence, not with invasive scanning procedures.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 12):
We don't know what went on behind the scenes. Bottom line is they stopped it, as did they stop the potential bombing of the NW A330 near DTW and the cargo plane threats.

What? The Northwest bomber was stopped by an alert passenger. Just like Richard Reid was stopped by an alert flight attendant.

Quoting BoeingGuy (Reply 12):
So every serious threat to US aviation has been thwarted so far in almost 11 years since 9/11. Say all you want about the TSA and DHS, but apparently someone has been doing something right.

This is a very fallacious argument. Firstly, the two most serious threats to US aviation were stopped by airline crew and passengers. The other serious attacks were stopped by intelligence, not the TSA. There's actually no evidence at all, that I'm aware of, that the TSA has done anything other than inflate the demand for travel sized bottles of shampoo.

Quoting ghifty (Reply 19):
To an extent, that administration and many other administrations are above the Bill of Rights.

Government agencies cannot opt out of the Bill of Rights. What other agencies do you think are "above" the Bill of Rights?


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11718 posts, RR: 15
Reply 23, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 981 times:

Huh... So a huge expantion of government under the right-wing does not work. Hundres of billions of dollars wasted by right-wingers goes for nothing. Color me shocked. And the right-wing just wants more and more of this. Yeah...


Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9529 posts, RR: 31
Reply 24, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 960 times:

Why complain? It worked exactly the way it should work, the CIA and whichever other services have done their job here. Congratulations. They are in place to prevent that a terrorist ever reaches an airport terminal.

The TSA is a huge waste of resources. They should be stopped from harrassing children and old people. Airport security can be done in a friendly and respectful way, with common sense. But we have discussed that numerous times.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
25 geezer : Let's see now, so far there have been 24 replies to this thread, (and about that many previous threads complaining about the TSA and DHS ) It has beco
26 seb146 : That's because there is nothing better. There is no alternative. Scrap Patriot Act, TSA, and Homeland Security. That would save a lot of money every
27 aa757first : The TSA was started under Bush, but has been thriving under Obama. Under the current administration, they've either introduced or enormously expanded
28 Maverick623 : If you think either of them is actually running the show at DHS, you are sorely mistaken. I'm not even sure that Bush knew what he was doing when he
29 soon7x7 : It would have been had the CIA not sniffed out this plan...doubt they would have caught the perp...and lets face it, if they "profiled him", you know
30 Mir : Security at an overseas airport is not TSA's responsibility. -Mir
31 geezer : Now there's a grand idea ! Seb says "there is nothing better" ( than the TSA ? ) there is no alternative ( to DHS ? ) Scrap the Patriot act ? In othe
32 seb146 : Not the ones who had half their head blown off and are going back on their fourth or fifth tour. Let them heal and try to live some what of a normal
33 Post contains images Maverick623 : I was referring to Obama and Bush before him running the show at the DHS. The 9/11 excuse got old about 6 years ago.
34 PanHAM : I may have missed it over all the bipartisan exchange here but the guy who was supposed to blow his crown jewels off was actually working for the Saud
35 geezer : Seb, for once I sure hope you're right ! What exactly do you mean, by "excuse" ? When a gang of terrorists hi-jacks 4 airliners, murders over 2,000 i
36 Maverick623 : Explain to me exactly how the DHS is functioning as a revenge service? You really, really, REALLY don't want to go there.
37 Ken777 : "Need To Know" is somewhat restricting, especially when it has an intelligence op underway. The FAA was also out of the Need To Know loop. Does that
38 soon7x7 : Technically correct however while my trips to Europe everytime have had me go through local screening then on to screening performed according to US/
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