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North Carolina Votes To Ban Gay Marriage  
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5647 posts, RR: 6
Posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4764 times:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/05/09/politi...lina-marriage/index.html?hpt=hp_c1

I used to get all worked up about stuff like this, but now I leave it to 2 points:

1) This will get struck down as a violation of the 14th Amendment.

2) Soon we will be talking to our children and grandchildren about this issue the same way we talk to them about anti-miscegenation laws.


Go ahead, bible-thumping haters. Keep it up.


"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
278 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17506 posts, RR: 45
Reply 1, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 4757 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Thread starter):
2) Soon we will be talking to our children and grandchildren about this issue the same way we talk to them about anti-miscegenation laws.

   Every day more and more people realize there is no gay bogeyman, and that the Christian right offers nothing to society other than hypocrisy.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinestarbuk7 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 599 posts, RR: 5
Reply 2, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4714 times:

Quoting Maverick623 (Thread starter):
Go ahead, bible-thumping haters.
Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 1):
Christian right offers nothing to society


Yep, nice to see the insults flying right away. All credibility lost here for me.


User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4389 posts, RR: 29
Reply 3, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 4711 times:

Quoting starbuk7 (Reply 2):

Yep, nice to see the insults flying right away. All credibility lost here for me.

Credibility?



The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17506 posts, RR: 45
Reply 4, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 4700 times:

Quoting starbuk7 (Reply 2):
All credibility lost here for me.

Ha. An entire group totally disenfranchised by hypocritical lunatics based on not one shred of evidence--there was no credibility in the first place.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6593 posts, RR: 6
Reply 5, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 6 days ago) and read 4670 times:
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Not only "Gay Marriage" is banned, but so are "Civil Unions"

Makes my blood boil.



Step into my office, baby
User currently onlineJetBlueGuy2006 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1660 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4642 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 5):
but so are "Civil Unions"

This is the part that really makes no sense. It will affect a lot more people than just same-sex couples. I don't know if some of the people realize that this was part of it, as most of the focus was on the same-sex provision.



Home Airport: Capital Region International Airport (KLAN)
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6593 posts, RR: 6
Reply 7, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4619 times:
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Quoting JetBlueGuy2006 (Reply 6):
I don't know if some of the people realize that this was part of it, as most of the focus was on the same-sex provision.

Tha'ts the thing, they didn't realize it. I just heard on NPR this morning that people who voted against gay marriage would not have supported a civil union ban if they had known about it.

Is it a case of uniformed voters? Sure. but it also show the hate and bigotry of the drafters of the ban to include civil union in the package.



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlinebabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 8, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4616 times:

If gay marriage means getting married in a church then I'd like to see it banned in all countries. Any gay guy I've met has always been anti church and non believing. You get the feeling that they only want to be married before God only because it looks better in the photos and makes a better day out for the family.

Civil unions I have no problem with. Marry what you like. It's just a piece of paper, like any contract.

Sorry.


User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6593 posts, RR: 6
Reply 9, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4598 times:
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Quoting babybus (Reply 8):
If gay marriage means getting married in a church then I'd like to see it banned in all countries

But it doesn't.

Gay Marriage advocates have never asked churches to be forced to perform ceremonies. Most gays would perfectly fine not having a "church" wedding.

Quoting babybus (Reply 8):
Any gay guy I've met has always been anti church and non believing. You get the feeling that they only want to be married before God only because it looks better in the photos and makes a better day out for the family.

So a man and woman, how do you prove the "worthy" to be wedded at a church?



Step into my office, baby
User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17506 posts, RR: 45
Reply 10, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4584 times:

Quoting babybus (Reply 8):
Any gay guy I've met has always been anti church and non believing.

I know plenty of straight people that think like I do--why not ban them too?

Quoting mt99 (Reply 9):
Gay Marriage advocates have never asked churches to be forced to perform ceremonies. Most gays would perfectly fine not having a "church" wedding.

  



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1834 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4569 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 1):
the Christian right

I've got to say, Americans are really good at turning everything into a "left vs. right" issue. Literally everything. Just peruse the various threads in Non-Av.

The thing is, there are many people on the left who oppose gay marriage. "Bible-thumping" isn't exclusive to conservatives you know. The right might have more of them, but that is the only reason they seem to try to pass these laws, because at the end of the day, they're just trying to please the people who voted them in.

I'm fairly right-wing (moreso fiscally), but I'm also all for gay marriage. So it's disappointing to see this.

Quoting babybus (Reply 8):
If gay marriage means getting married in a church then I'd like to see it banned in all countries. Any gay guy I've met has always been anti church and non believing. You get the feeling that they only want to be married before God only because it looks better in the photos and makes a better day out for the family.

You must be of the persuasion that being gay is a choice and that there are no gay Christians. There certainly are homosexuals who belive in God, and I would say they have every right as a practicing Christian to be wed in a church by a priest. In fact, there's a church not far from my office that has a nice big rainbow flag on the sign that indicates they welcome gay Christians. I'm straight, but I find the progressive acceptance pretty refreshing.



Flying refined.
User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7389 posts, RR: 5
Reply 12, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4527 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 4):

Ha. An entire group totally disenfranchised by hypocritical lunatics based on not one shred of evidence--there was no credibility in the first place.

I'm not a fan of same sex marriage, I'm sure as hell not Christian, or a lunatic, I'm just somewhat old-fashioned and believe that marriage should be between a man and a woman, I know I'm not the only person who thinks like this. I don't have a problem with civil unions, you can civil unions up the wazoo, they mean f.a. especially how they work where I live today.


User currently offlineakiss20 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 609 posts, RR: 5
Reply 13, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4520 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 12):
I don't have a problem with civil unions, you can civil unions up the wazoo,

As long as the government only grants civil unions to straight couples as well, this is perfectly acceptable, and in my opinion preferable. Let civil unions be a union granted by the state and marriage one by a religious group.

If you advocate the government giving marriages to straight couples and civil unions to gay couples, this is an unacceptable return of separate but equal.



Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are
User currently offline1stfl94 From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 1455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 14, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4508 times:

I think this will ultimately backfire as the ban of any legal recognition for same sex relationships will surely be challenged all the way.

User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7389 posts, RR: 5
Reply 15, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4508 times:

Quoting akiss20 (Reply 13):
If you advocate the government giving marriages to straight couples and civil unions to gay couples, this is an unacceptable return of separate but equal.

I couldn't care less who has a civil union, straight or gay I really don't care. Modern society and political correctness has killed off many traditions but some we should keep some, marriage is one that shouldn't be messed with for the sake of a minority.

I'm not anti gay either, I really don't care who people sleep with, if one of my kids ended up being care, all power to them, I'd be far more distressed if they were vegetarian, I hate vegetarians, a person who won't eat a good steak isn't welcome in my house.


User currently onlineMaverickM11 From United States of America, joined Apr 2000, 17506 posts, RR: 45
Reply 16, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4498 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 11):
I've got to say, Americans are really good at turning everything into a "left vs. right" issue. Literally everything. Just peruse the various threads in Non-Av.

You're right, it's more rational vs irrational, rather than left vs right. That said if we were to do a Venn diagram of those on the right and those who oppose gay marriage/civil unions there'd be a lot of intersection. I'm fairly conservative otherwise, but I just can't handle the self defeating nonsensical social issues.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 15):
marriage is one that shouldn't be messed with for the sake of a minority.

Why? I don't think Christians should marry; why don't we stop them from marrying? In fact I'd bet they are the leading cause of the breakdown of marriage: heterosexual Christians divorcing. It just doesn't make sense; why limit an institution if it's so great?

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 12):
I'm just somewhat old-fashioned and believe that marriage should be between a man and a woman

That's not a very good reason to deny rights to a whole group, never mind a slippery slope.



E pur si muove -Galileo
User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7389 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4501 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 16):
That's not a very good reason to deny rights to a whole group, never mind a slippery slope.

But why should gay people be allowed to marry, I've not heard any reasons which convince me it's the right thing to do. Marriage is between a man and a woman, not between same sex couples, it's my opinion, you'll not get me to change it.


User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6593 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4494 times:
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Quoting kiwirob (Reply 12):
I know I'm not the only person who thinks like this. I don't have a problem with civil unions, you can civil unions up the wazoo,

So - if you could have voted in the North Carolina ballot.. would you have voted "for" or "against"?

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 17):
I've not heard any reasons which convince me it's the right thing to do


Because is doesn't affect anybody except the interested parties.

What is reason to convince us its the "wrong" thing to do?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1834 posts, RR: 10
Reply 19, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4476 times:

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 16):
That said if we were to do a Venn diagram of those on the right and those who oppose gay marriage/civil unions there'd be a lot of intersection.

I don't disagree. In fact I mention it in my previous post. But the whole anti-gay marriage notion is representative of a religious group that encompasses more one party than the other. I think it would be incorrect to state that it's the party's mandate to stop gay marriage, but rather the ideals of the members in that party. I know for a fact that I'm not the only pro-gay marriage right-winger out there.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 16):
I don't think Christians should marry; why don't we stop them from marrying?

Well in all fairness, marriage is a Christian tradition, so your example is a little extreme, but I see what you're getting at.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 16):
heterosexual Christians divorcing

I'd be pretty interested to see a study that looks at states where gays can marry and compare divorce rates between gay and straight couples. I have a feeling the results might be pretty surprising.

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 16):
That's not a very good reason to deny rights to a whole group

But is marriage itself really a right in the US? Maybe the benefits of marriage are (the same benefits achieved though civil union), but is the act of marrying a right? I would tend to not think so. Please prove me wrong if I'm incorrect, I can't really quote your constitution by heart.  
Quoting kiwirob (Reply 17):
I've not heard any reasons which convince me it's the right thing to do
Quoting kiwirob (Reply 17):
it's my opinion, you'll not get me to change it.

I think you can figure out on your own why putting these two sentences in the same post might make you look a little closed minded.



Flying refined.
User currently offline1stfl94 From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 1455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4476 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 17):
But why should gay people be allowed to marry, I've not heard any reasons which convince me it's the right thing to do. Marriage is between a man and a woman, not between same sex couples, it's my opinion, you'll not get me to change it

See I always thought marriage was about two people who love each other and want to commit for life. Why should the terms used be any different for straight or gay couples? It's the people who think it's an institution are the ones who I think are the most damaging to marriage.


User currently offlineus330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3871 posts, RR: 13
Reply 21, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4472 times:

If this was really about protecting the sacred institution of marriage, which is a common refrain of supporters of bills like this, then they would be trying to ban divorce.

User currently offlineakiss20 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 609 posts, RR: 5
Reply 22, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4462 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 20):

Quoting MaverickM11 (Reply 16):
That's not a very good reason to deny rights to a whole group

But is marriage itself really a right in the US? Maybe the benefits of marriage are (the same benefits achieved though civil union), but is the act of marrying a right? I would tend to not think so. Please prove me wrong if I'm incorrect, I can't really quote your constitution by heart.

"Marriage is one of the "basic civil rights of man," fundamental to our very existence and survival.... To deny this fundamental freedom on so unsupportable a basis as the racial classifications embodied in these statutes, classifications so directly subversive of the principle of equality at the heart of the Fourteenth Amendment, is surely to deprive all the State's citizens of liberty without due process of law. The Fourteenth Amendment requires that the freedom of choice to marry not be restricted by invidious racial discrimination. Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not marry, a person of another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the State."

Loving v. Virginia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loving_v._Virginia



Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are
User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7389 posts, RR: 5
Reply 23, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4460 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 19):
So - if you could have voted in the North Carolina ballot.. would you have voted "for" or "against"?

I wouldn't have voted, as a for vote goes against my beliefs and a no vote also bans civil unions which I don't have a problem with.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 20):
I think you can figure out on your own why putting these two sentences in the same post might make you look a little closed minded.

Fair comment, on this issue my mind has been made up, I've discussed it to death with a couple of gay friends, I'm hardly going to change my mind based on what some people I don't know have to say on an internet forum.

Quoting 1stfl94 (Reply 21):
See I always thought marriage was about two people who love each other and want to commit for life.

Also a given but I think it should only be for men and women.

Quoting us330 (Reply 22):
then they would be trying to ban divorce.

Nothing wrong with divorce, sometimes marriages or civil unions just don't work, I'm sure this is the same regardless of sexual orientation.


User currently offline1stfl94 From United Kingdom, joined May 2006, 1455 posts, RR: 0
Reply 24, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 4454 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 24):
Quoting 1stfl94 (Reply 21):
See I always thought marriage was about two people who love each other and want to commit for life.

Also a given but I think it should only be for men and women

For me, this is what it comes down to when these things are put to vote. Why is it that my private life becomes decided by what someone who doesn't know me, never met me and probably never will.


25 Post contains images WestJet747 : I stand corrected! Thanks for the info. Spot on. It opens a whole new can of worms, but I totally agree that it's a valid argument (although I don't
26 kiwirob : Which fits nicely into this, which is pretty much my opinion. [quote][T]he historical background of Loving is different from the history underlying t
27 Aesma : Around here getting married in a church is banned for everyone. Well, you can have something called a religious marriage, but it has no meaning for t
28 travelin man : Er... I don't think this is correct. "Marriage" has been around long before there was such a thing as a "Christian".
29 Post contains links mariner : One of the more famous gay commentators, Andrew Sullivan, is also a deeply committed Christian. http://andrewsullivan.thedailybeast.com/ Not expectin
30 zrs70 : Perhaps I run in limited circles. I can't speak to the anti church part, but the non believing is a different story. As a gay rabbi, I have many frie
31 mt99 : So changes of perception and opinions should be banned just because they have been held for a while? The question, who people opposing gay marriage h
32 Maverick623 : The only insult is people denying basic rights to a select few based on "moral" or "traditional" reasons. See what I mean? It's the same, lame argume
33 kiwirob : No its not and you know it isn't, some things should just stay as they are meant to be.
34 akiss20 : Meant to be as defined by whom? Everyone has there own standard of how things are meant to be. The question is can you practice your idea of how thin
35 mt99 : How do you know how thing are "meant to be?"
36 HOONS90 : Incredibly disappointing to hear. There is simply no reason to oppose same-sex marriage, period. A lot of the arguments I've been hearing sound like "
37 aloges : It's the same in Germany and it makes things much less complicated. Interesting... AFAIK, that became legal in Germany when religious marriage lost i
38 Maverick623 : Uh, yeah, it is. You believe that gay people should be in a separate class where they are unable to enjoy the rights of everyone else. That's the tex
39 akiss20 : That seems odd to me. Why does the government care what ceremonies a religious organization (assuming it doesn't involve physical harm etc etc)? If t
40 Airport : Agreed, this is a disappointing decision. I speak as a conservative who strongly supports gay marriage and wishes there were more conservatives who ha
41 CRJ900 : Isn't it better that Peter and Paul are allowed to marry if they are in love, rather than Peter marrying the girl next door just to please everyone el
42 Post contains links mt99 : Here is some nice words from a North Carolina pastor from a few days ago" "In the audio [below] Harris says: “So your little son starts to act a lit
43 WestJet747 : Um, I don't recall saying Christians invented marriage... You can adopt a tradition that was already in existence as your own, which is exactly what
44 Post contains links aloges : You can sign a petition against his remarks if you wish: http://salsa.democracyinaction.org/o...ia/action/public/?action_KEY=10391
45 us330 : It will. Even one of the Republican leaders in the North Carolina state senate said that the law would be repealed within 20 years, because its large
46 DocLightning : This, too, shall pass. Acts like this remind of Jim Crowe and "One Drop" laws. They are acts of desperation committed by a side who know that they are
47 Post contains images ATTart : So true.
48 Mir : There are a lot of people in general who think of their marriages something more for show than for anything else. Gay people certainly don't have a m
49 Maverick623 : No way. I want to see that guy in jail.
50 ltbewr : What disturbs me is that the national Democratic Party convention is going to held in North Carolina, a state where they have made this sad voting dec
51 cv640 : Yeah, but they want to carry NC again, so they'll over look those facts. Its just politics as usual, unfortnately.
52 NASCARAirforce : I am NOT gay, but when is the government going to stay out of TWO consenting adult's personal private lives? Other than something that is supposedly
53 kiwirob : And you do?
54 Maverick623 : Nope, the Constitution does. And it says nothing about "Equal protection under the law, except when it's always been unequal."
55 jpetekyxmd80 : Yes, that is a much more grounded and legitimate legal argument than what I like to call the Bruce Hornsby defense: no gay marriage cause thats just
56 tugger : Anyone should be allowed to be wed where they want. Why on earth would same-sex couples be required to have a non-church wedding ceremony? Many churc
57 luckyone : Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face... In a profound twist of irony, much of the support for this amendment has come from BLACK churc
58 Post contains links garnetpalmetto : So as a North Carolina voter who voted against the amendment, I thought I'd weigh in. First - even prior to the amendment, gay marriage was illegal in
59 Post contains links and images mariner : Here's a fun read then: http://www.theawl.com/2012/05/sex-and-punishment "When A Medieval Knight Could Marry Another Medieval Knight In the period up
60 Yellowstone : Stephen Colbert hit the nail on the head, as he so often does:
61 ozglobal : Maybe those states so fearful that society as a whole will collapse if gay people are allowed to officialize a monogamous relationship and that the "
62 GBLKD : What about the vows in the "traditional" marriage ceremony then where couples promise to remain together "till death do us part" then? Never been to
63 Post contains links Airport : This says it all. http://www.buzzfeed.com/mjs538/steps...u-evolve-your-views-on-gay-marriag
64 RussianJet : I understand that many of those who are opposed to Gay marriage cite Christianity as a reason, but it is a REAL shame that the opening post of this th
65 777222LR : If you don't use the bible to promote hate, then you shouldn't be offended should you?
66 Dreadnought : Not a surprise here. If you are not a progressive liberal, they call you a hater, intolerant, phobic, superstitious, and so forth. Again today such a
67 Post contains links mt99 : You have to be freaking kidding me. And this is not insulting?! What is this? What is this type language? Love? understanding? truth? desire to have
68 RussianJet : I shouldn't take offence at the blatant belittlement and abuse of the book that I, and other Christians, consider the most sacred in existence?? Very
69 par13del : Well, I am unaware of any bible for any religion that condones "man lying with another man", if one believes in God but is gay then you are fighting
70 luckyone : As a Christian I am not offended in the least, because 1) there ARE people out there who abuse the word of God for their own selfish, ignorant, and h
71 Post contains links mt99 : Actually, the Bible has a couple of Homo-friendly stories: And as soon as the lad was gone, David arose out of a place toward the south, and fell on
72 Post contains images RussianJet : Hmm, why? Please point out ANY evidence that I have said anything remotely anti-gay. And this is the problem right here - the immediate association t
73 luckyone : The church goes against the Bible in marrying adulterers all the time if you want to take that approach. They also marry liars, thieves, and murderer
74 RussianJet : Absolutely, totally agreed. So why should we all be tarred with the same brush? That is just....prejudice.
75 mt99 : Fine - then i hope you have plenty of gay family members. Would you support gay marriage then?
76 luckyone : Who said everyone was tarred with the same brush? He clearly said Bible thumpers--whose existence you acknowledge--not Christians. Where's the proble
77 Post contains images RussianJet : I haven't said that I don't support it! You have assumed so! That really does sum up my point. And not plenty, just the one, but we love him, and he
78 mt99 : So do you? a clear yes or no please.
79 RussianJet : Yes, I support the principle of gay marriage. But, that had nothing to do with my original point, and your subsequent assumptions.
80 mt99 : So, yes - i apologize and retract my outburst towards you. But you must understand that gays get battered, insulted on very constant basis by people
81 RussianJet : Graciously received and appreciated. I can totally get that, but you know, the skewing of Christian beliefs by such people is precisely something tha
82 par13del : Why it is such a good book because it talks about life as it was and what God says it should be, the stories did not end with it being condoned. Whic
83 mt99 : So things that are not "not condoned" are prohibited? That makes sense. If only the story of David and Samuel love and devotion would have been a bit
84 bjorn14 : 31 States have already passed this type of Amendment and none has made i9t to the USSC When someone shows me definitive proof that homosexuals are bo
85 TIA : Surprisingly, this doesn't really bother me anymore. As many have already said, the tide has already turned. It's not a matter of if, but when gay mar
86 777222LR : Your point was, and correct me if I'm wrong, is that you do not like the fact someone used the phrase, "Bible-thumping haters," as you perceived that
87 Post contains images Ken777 : Or, until very recently, for Mormons Marriage is between a Man and a Woman and Another Woman and Another Woman and Another Woman and Another Woman an
88 Mir : Wanting to ban gay marriage is hateful, intolerant, phobic and rooted in superstition. So while I feel that those terms are thrown around too much, i
89 par13del : If you take it that way, go for it, last I knew religion and the acceptance of any deity is a choice not a law, but to each his own.
90 mariner : I doubt anyone can show you "definitive proof" - or any that you would accept. It is too easy an out for you to claim that it is a choice. But if it
91 mt99 : Exactly. So why again are gays lives being diacted by a deity which they or mighy not embracxe? you didnt answer me about the evil shrimp.
92 par13del : If you are not mixing law and religion, its a choice, if you choose to follow the religion and the teachings of the religion do not accept your lifes
93 Maverick623 : AFAIK, none except Prop 8 has been challenged in any court yet. Prop 8 is currently winding it's way through the appeals system, with every single co
94 DocLightning : Why should I do that? You will never accept anything as difinitive proof, so why should we try? I'll sooner convince Superfly that global warming is
95 DeltaMD90 : Furthermore, what if you did "choose to be gay?" Why should anyone stop that? Give it time. The dominoes are falling, there is not stopping them. You
96 Post contains images DocLightning : But will you marry me?
97 RussianJet : That is correct. I do see the context, but still don't like the term, and I have been fairly clear about why. Agreed, not something I have disputed o
98 Post contains images kngkyle :
99 mbmbos : Kngkyle, As much as I think that education, knowledge and intelligence is definitely linked to stances on social issues, I suspect this map has more t
100 Post contains links and images 777222LR : In North Carolina, it indeed looks as if it is more proportional to poverty levels (=no vote) than education levels. Where there is a higher instance
101 garnetpalmetto : The map's inaccurate. New Hanover County (where UNC-Wilmington is) and Guilford County (where UNC-Greensboro ("Spartans" shows more than the school n
102 bjorn14 : At some point in your life you were decieved either by a person(s) or situation(s).
103 HOONS90 : Don't you think that your comment is rather insolent? Wouldn't there be far more pressure (both in the family and society) to be straight than to be
104 mariner : I think it is bizarre that someone who isn't gay can claim to know how it is to be gay. mariner
105 WestJet747 : Please, educate us. How is one deceived into becoming gay? I'm extremely curious. By your logic, one can be deceived to then become straight again, y
106 Post contains images luckyone : If that is what you truly believe then I feel very sorry for you. Sorry that you have no idea the amount of anguish and confusion that many of us go
107 mt99 : Guys, Guys - Bjorn14 is going to prove that you can choose your sexuality. He is going to "turn gay" for a month. He is going to keep an on-line jour
108 ltbewr : I think another reason for this Amendment to the NC Constitution and as in other states is to make is clear they will not recognize same-gender marria
109 Post contains links baguy : Not sure if this is hijacking a bit, but I was sent this, and found it really touching - it provides good reasoning for equal marriage rights. http://
110 par13del : I admit that I do not spend much time in Non-av so forgive me if I do not know the poster, but just based on the comment, how are you so sure that he
111 Mir : The only aspect of religion that is being attacked as the desire on the part of some religious people to legally impose their morality on others. And
112 Pu : I'm against gay marriage because I'm against the state conferring different status on different people based on their relationships. So I'm against th
113 mariner : I can only speak for myself and say that anyone who claims that homosexuality is a choice has no real experience of homosexuality and is looking for
114 garnetpalmetto : Which was already clear here, via statute. The only reason Amendment One was enshrined was to make it so that it would take a court ruling or a vote
115 Maverick623 : And you still miss the point. You can argue until you're blue in the face that sexual orientation is a "choice". Heck, you could be right for all I c
116 DocLightning : Explain, since you know so much about my life, who deceived my heterosexual self and turned me gay.
117 DocLightning : Then you are not against gay marriage. You are against marriage in general. If you are against marriage in general, you do not start by defending its
118 aloges : I had been wondering if some of the homophobia on display here and elsewhere was a cover for the old and terrible "gay men are paedophiles" prejudice
119 Post contains images RussianJet : How on earth can you make such an absurd assumption? Well, having said that, we have probably all been deceived at some point in our lives, but that
120 jpetekyxmd80 : Dude, you must be some kind of epic coward to come in and spout that crap without sprouting the nuts/integrity of defending it or elaborating in any
121 Post contains links bjorn14 : I'm not being mean, in fact I am being loving and trying to save you from an eternal Hell. But then again Hell is a religious concept thought by many
122 ozglobal : I didn't know Scandinavia still had fundamentalist "Christians". What a mean little idea of God you have. What a tiny idea of grace. Hell was somethi
123 aloges : It is better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt.[Edited 2012-05-13 14:31:09]
124 luckyone : A profound oversimplification. And which is it by the way? Were we all molested or corrupted somewhere in our lives, and didn't have our fathers to c
125 DeltaMD90 : Because the Bible says being gay will send you to hell?? I thought the road to Heaven was paved by accepting Jesus and his teachings of love and acce
126 Post contains images WestJet747 : I'm sorry, but the hateful verbal pollution you're spreading in the Non-Av section of an aviation forum on the internet is not going to go far in try
127 mariner : I find that extraordinarily arrogant. You think that in the course of my long life I have not considered this? You think I did not believe the Cathol
128 DocLightning : Rather than responding to a hateful post, folks, I suggest you simply report it as "flamebait."
129 Pu : . I am against gay marriage because it expands the availability of a needless and destructive state power into private relationships. Gay or straight
130 Mir : Which is all well and good, but fairness demands that, until the state is out of marriage business entirely (which I wouldn't object to), homosexual
131 Post contains images WestJet747 : I can't really put my finger on it, but something tells me you might share Bjorn's sentiment on homosexuality... Fine, let's get back on topic: First
132 mariner : No, sir, I've hearing it all my life - and why. It is simply naive to think that any homosexual has not heard these same cruel platitudes again and a
133 RussianJet : Question: How far, if at all, do you think things have improved in this regard over the last couple of decades? I would like to think that the fact t
134 Post contains images mariner : Oh, sure, things have come a very long way. I think it is fair to say that for most Americans it can be dated to the police raid on the Stonewall Bar
135 bjorn14 : We make choices every day between right and wrong. The power of sin is irresistable to many. Why not Jesus did ?(Matt. 25:41) Until the mid-1990's sl
136 mariner : Only if you consider it sin. Since I don't, there is no meeting ground between us. mariner
137 aloges : So you think that a lack of homophobia and a desire to extend basic civil rights to minorities are just political correctness. That is incorrect, the
138 RussianJet : That is true, and very well put. However, as distasteful as such things are, they are an undeniable part of this debate. If anything, rather than jus
139 flynlr : here is a view not stated but probably shared by many. my personal feelings have evolved over the years to be more accepting of alternate lifestyles b
140 Post contains links and images aloges : In certain circles, Nordic symbols are abused as symbols for their hateful idea of so-called purity: "Norway sues German company over use of flag in
141 bjorn14 : That's where you are wrong. I don't hate anyone. Jesus tells me to love everyone but to hate their sin (and my sins too.) I call out what I believe t
142 mariner : No, why should I? I have never sworn to a monogamous relationship with anyone, and what ever anyone else has sworn to is a matter for their conscienc
143 aloges : If I may... My heterosexuality wasn't ever a choice. It is the way I am wired, as it were, and it has never needed to be enabled. That is why I have
144 bjorn14 : So it was a "if it feels good do it in the moment" without regard to anyone else you may hurt. Got it.
145 RussianJet : I don't believe he said or even implied that anyone got or may get hurt. Indeed, I believe the implication was to the contrary, in spite of the fact
146 aloges : Do you think that it is wrong to do that sort of thing?
147 mariner : No, you don't "got it." It had very little to do with what you are suggesting. It didn't always necessarily involve sex. mariner
148 bjorn14 : I was talking about the wife who may find out that her husband was having an affair with a man.
149 aloges : Well, do you?
150 Post contains images WestJet747 : What did they use then? 1987 is a little before my time Give me a list of countries where slavery was legal and a list of countries where gay marriag
151 bjorn14 : I am against anything that destroys a marriage and I see very few marriages surviving this kind of betrayal. No it doesn't, what you're saying is hom
152 aloges : So you oppose, out of principle, actions that hurt the relationships of people who are complete strangers to you?
153 flipdewaf : So what? My friend tom once told me to have a yard of ale and I simply declined, what is different about this Jesus guy? Fred
154 RussianJet : You big wus!
155 DocLightning : We "love" you so much that we think you should be hanged in public. Yeah, I agree. It's outrageous. And if anyone said the exact same things about Je
156 aloges : two more things: "Jesus tells me to" just confirms that hatred for homosexuality is but something else. Perhaps it is a trained reflex or a coping mec
157 RussianJet : Well, in this case it's not necessarily a question of that, as he refuses to accept that it is a defining characteristic as such, rather choosing to
158 Post contains images WestJet747 : That's exactly what I'm saying! Just like how I can't control my attraction to women. The urges are the same whether they are for one gender or the o
159 bjorn14 : Why? Sin is what seperates us from G-d's love.
160 flipdewaf : If god doesn't like you because you are gay then god is a prick and I don't want be be let into his "heaven". Fred
161 WestJet747 : So God only embraces those who play by his rules according to the Bible? He surely doesn't sound that loving or merciful to me. The God I was taught
162 Post contains links aloges : I must quote George Carlin on this great paradox:
163 Post contains links mariner : The timeline: http://www.glinn.com/news/tline4.htm Timeline Event: 1892, "The word 'lesbian' is first used in a newspaper article in the New York Tim
164 ozglobal : Because he referred to it mainly in relation to people directing their energy to self righteous condemnation of others to defend their own mean idea
165 DocLightning : The issue with fundamentalists is that they pick and choose the wording that suits their purposes. This is not just true in religion, but also of the
166 RussianJet : It is unfortunately true that some people are very selective in their application of God's love and forgiveness. Fact is we all do things that are wr
167 Doona : Wait, are you saying that Earth does not revolve around the sun? Cheers Mats
168 Post contains images bjorn14 : I agree 100% That's your choice and G-d isn't going to stop you either. He gave us free will. Jesus said, "But small is the gate and narrow the path
169 ozglobal : No you are profoundly mistaken; Jesus said no such thing. Read the Gospels again. He told you to love your neighbour and hate YOUR OWN sin. Let him w
170 Maverick623 : And you have about as much of a chance of that as the rest of us convincing you that there is no such thing as Hell. Right... so it's not your place
171 bjorn14 : I dont want to see anybody going to Hell. I am only pointing out what the word of G-d says about sin. It's not judging, it's correcting. IMHO, people
172 RussianJet : Says the guy who selectively decides that judging others is fine. Do us all a favour and go judge yourself already.
173 Doona : Less talk -- more action, then. Start by killing off all those sinners who work on the sabbath. Exodus 31:15 clearly states that anyone who works on
174 DocLightning : Jesus may have or may not have existed. That said, there is NOTHING in the Bible (OT, anyway) that is a verifiable fact. So now what? And don't tell
175 Post contains images mariner : Sadly, he is not alone. There are millions and millions out there who do not believe in marriage equality. And probably as many millions who don't be
176 Post contains images luckyone : And some of us here on this thread have been accused of "groupthink."
177 Post contains links Pu : The Bible is easily the most verifiable manuscript of similar age. For instance: http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...king-solomon-wall-jerusalem-b
178 DocLightning : Archaeological evidence for the Exodus. List it. 1/3 of Egypt's population left. Where is the evidence for a massive economic disaster? No evidence o
179 Pu : You said "NOTHING" was verifiable in the Bible and even added caps to the word 'nothing'. I did not say everything in the Bible was verifiable. I did
180 Mir : It is NOT the state's job to care about what something might or might not do to religion. It is the state's job to treat people equally and make sure
181 Pu : Look, I understand the urge for respect and acceptance, if that is a benefit of marriage. I even understand the perceived injustice of allowing only
182 Mir : And what you're missing is that that doesn't give you license to discriminate against gay people by preventing them from EVER having the same rights
183 Post contains images Maverick623 : Are you implying that because several of the books have historical/archeological backing, that the entire collection is 100% true?
184 tugger : Actually it is not "unfair to single people". The simple fact is that single people are more expensive to society and the government that supports it
185 Pu : When I want to imply or state something I simply do so, but I appreciate your efforts to elucidate my own intentions so you can make a point and use
186 Mir : You've said this many times - we get it. What we don't get is how you go from there to justifying discrimination against people based on sexual orien
187 Post contains links ATTart : Here is a hater for you. Andy Gipson, Mississippi Lawmaker, Won't Apologize For Citing Bible Passage Calling For Gays' Death http://www.huffingtonpos
188 Dreadnought : Oh I agree with that one. I have no use for Baptist fundamentalists (or fundamentalists of any persuasion), because they believe and teach that the B
189 DocLightning : Assuming that 3% of the US population is gay and that as of 2010 there were about 350 million Americans. Then there are just over 10 million gays in
190 Dreadnought : Now who's the hater? Just because some ass-hat goes ape about it does not condemn the work. Unlike other certain religions, the fact that the bible w
191 DocLightning : Not I. I didn't call for the death of 10-17 million people. A Christian did. Loudly. The work calls for gays to be put to death. It says so in no una
192 Dreadnought : Those are quotes. God never sat down and wrote it, nor did he dictate it as claimed for the Quran. The Bible is a collection of experiences and refle
193 RussianJet : I sure wouldn't use the word 'hater' but you are calling for wholesale disregard of the Bible because of certain whackos. There are some pretty idiot
194 Post contains links ATTart : Did, you watch this video below? This is just one of many videos that can be found on YouTube. I have been mugged, by Bible Folks quoting the Bible w
195 DocLightning : He claims he did. And a good portion of this country believes that the Bible is the literal word of God. No, I am calling for wholesale SEPARATION OF
196 RussianJet : I am very well aware that some commit atrocities in the name of religion. /have not once suggested otherwise,
197 Post contains links and images ATTart : Some, think again. Until you have waked in are shoes. Please do not lecture us of what we have had to deal with when it comes to religion and being d
198 Post contains images bjorn14 : I see the fatwa being issued soon as you have offended the prophet. BTW, for all you libertines out there why is no one jumping up and down about gov
199 Post contains images ATTart : However, I do believe that not all Christians are anti-gay.
200 RussianJet : Yes, some, as in not all. I really don't see what you are trying to prove. I have not denied for one second the extent of discrimination against gay
201 ATTart : I am sorry, you are right.
202 Post contains images RussianJet : No probs. I like the picture above.
203 ATTart : Thank You!!
204 WestJet747 : Hmm, I don't feel very discriminated against... I'm putting on my tin-foil hat as we speak! Which Canada is that? In the one I live in most people ge
205 Post contains images ATTart :
206 Post contains images akiss20 :
207 DocLightning : I find it hard to feel pity for someone who chooses to be hateful to someone who has done him no harm and who wishes him no harm.
208 Post contains images ATTart : For me hate consumes ones soul or self, trust me I have every reason to have hate toward these people. But I will not give them the power over me wit
209 Post contains links DocLightning : Fair enough. But when they come for you, how will you feel? Don't think for a moment that it can't or won't happen. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lync
210 ATTart : They have come for me, have you not read anything I have wrote? I have been mugged. Then when I went to police station to ask for help, I was laughed
211 ATTart : I was the person, who posted the information on this person!!![Edited 2012-05-20 13:29:26]
212 DocLightning : You didn't. But Dreadnought called me a "hater" for suggesting that perhaps people shouldn't be permitted to be in a position of leadership when they
213 ATTart : Cool!!
214 OzGlobal : This is incredible and deserves a dedicated thread! In France, he would be charged with a hate crime for inciting vilification and violence against a
215 Pu : First of all people are discriminated against all the time for things they can't control. People are discriminated in the kinds of careers they can g
216 mariner : What is the problem with polygamy? mariner
217 Mir : None of those involve the legal system. The US Constitution states that government is obligated to provide everyone with equal protection under the l
218 DocLightning : Unfortunately (and I mean that) this sort of speech is "protected" in this country. The only reason this is so is because the Holocaust did not happe
219 mariner : I have some problems, moral and ethical, with polygamy. But I wonder why Bjorn raises it as a negative. mariner
220 garnetpalmetto : Because in a last act of desperation he's going to throw everything AND the kitchen sink in the way of slippery slopes. Don't you see? If there's gay
221 bjorn14 : I only mentioned it because it's controlled by the state. I plead agnostic based on Abraham's 300 wives and 900 mistresses and considered the father
222 mariner : I still don't understand your point. If state objection to same-sex marriage is based solely on biblical proscriptions, I don't know why polygamy is
223 DocLightning : And yet you STILL haven't answered Mir's valid question of why you think that a state should SELECTIVELY restrict marriage to heterosexuals because y
224 Mir : It's actually Pu who's been not answering my question on how marriage being destructive can be used as justification for denying a certain group equa
225 DocLightning : You are correct! My bad. No, he's just told me that I'm going to a firey hell.[Edited 2012-05-21 14:19:08]
226 Post contains images DocLightning : I respect that. Not my style, either. One spouse is quite enough of a pain in my behind, thank you! But if polygamists' behavior doesn't affect you o
227 Mir : But if he's okay with you going there as a married man.... -Mir
228 Post contains images jpetekyxmd80 : Boom. I'm going to have to remember that one. The ridiculous can of worms that opens using the Old Testament, or Bible in general, to be the 'guide'
229 bjorn14 : I know you said this tongue-n-cheek but as I previously said I'm not OK with anybody going to Hell not even Anders Behring Breivik. We all are fallen
230 Post contains links ATTart : Here's another Pastor that Calls For "The Death of Queer & Homosexuals" Pastor Charles L. Worley of Providence Road Baptist Church -- located at 3
231 Post contains links Pu : TAX Benifits ! ? ! In America maried people are penalised in tax terms.With that startling revelation, I presume you now want to increase taxes on gay
232 Mir : Well, I've danced around it for long enough, so I might as well just ask: we know your views on homosexuality, but do you support the amendment to ba
233 DocLightning : Unequal treatment is justifiable if there is a valid, secular, or technical reason for it. This is why a blind person may not become a pilot. That do
234 Post contains links Pu : There is a valid secular reason - marriage is a religious concept enforced by the state. Expanding it to gays expands the improper role government ha
235 Post contains links and images Mir : No. I won't deny the marriage penalty exists, but not in all circumstances. And that's a problem with the tax code, not the right of anyone to get ma
236 DocLightning : 1) Not the distant past. I give you Saudi Arabia, Iran, and pretty much most "Muslim" countries. That is what happens when you consolidate political
237 Mir : I'd add the rule of law to that, but otherwise no argument from me. -Mir
238 Post contains images jpetekyxmd80 : Only thing i'd say here is that democracy does not necessarily prevent these types of things. I think the whole democratic concept is romanticized fo
239 Pu : I appreciate your lengthy response, but I don't have the time to answer all your points. I will say you've apparently moved on from the hysterical ac
240 Post contains images Mir : To protect people from themselves? How noble of you. I think you'll find that gay people would disagree with that. And their opinion is really the on
241 mariner : Well - yes. I'm really not sure what that has to do with anything I have said. Religious proscriptions against homosexuality are largely based on a p
242 Doona : Classy. Well played. No, that isn't his position. That's just your way of deflecting the facts that all of your examples were basically irrelevant an
243 ha763 : Men do have the right to take time off for the birth of their children. The Family and Medical Leave Act allows for up to 12 weeks of unpaid, job-pro
244 Mir : I'm going to need to see some text to support that one. Just to clarify, I'm claiming that the church cannot find two members of its congregation (or
245 bjorn14 : I know Leviticus (18:22) is the often quoted verse gainst homosexuality but Romans (1:26-32) explains cause and effect. That's interesting because Je
246 Pu : 200+ posts later after finally admitting that discrimination is ok, common, and in fact needed the argument is now that a reason must be provided for
247 WestJet747 : A convincing article, but not for the point being discussed. Dershowitz wants (like you) marriage to be left out of government control. Yet this thre
248 777222LR : Quote all you like, but you are a dying breed. Even Christians are turning the way of acceptance and love. You will always be viewed a bigot and a ho
249 Pu : Society can and does enforce unequal treatment unto all of us both for choices we make and matters beyond our control. As it should. The heroic and t
250 tugger : Ummm. wrong. Homosexuals can reproduce and have done so for millennia. And though they can even more easily reproduce nowadays reproduction has never
251 DocLightning : What I get is that they started lusting for one-another and then as a consequence, God Which then led them into envy, murder, strife, etc. This strik
252 mariner : The joyless St. Paul spoke against all lust, straight or homosexual. Celibacy was his preferred state and marriage (Corinthians - divided loyalty) fo
253 bjorn14 : It actually explains it a verse earlier in 1:25 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than
254 DocLightning : It's not free will if God is making people murder. It's not free will if God is hardening Pharoh's heart.
255 mariner : "thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women." And right there is the basic issue. My sexuality is not defined by the act of sex. I am ho
256 DocLightning : AND, it was never an issue of "free will" as to whether I was going to be attracted to men vs. women. As young as three years of age, I was checking
257 Post contains images garnetpalmetto : Just wondering Doc, but usually little boys pull little girls pigtails when they flirt at that age. What, exactly, were you pulling? For what it's wo
258 liftsifter : Don't understand why so many are bashing Christianity in this, when it's fairly obvious that Republicans are inflicting these laws. Not going to start
259 akiss20 : Also, why are we getting into an irritatingly long theological debate about what the bible says? Who cares? This is about civil marriage and the creat
260 garnetpalmetto : Because they are doing so in concert and with the blessing (no pun intended) of evangelical groups. Here in NC for instance, the original amendment l
261 DocLightning : YOU aren't the one we're bashing. We're bashing Christianist hypocrites who want to use their religion as a weapon and feel that as long as they can
262 bjorn14 : G-d doesn't make us doing anything we don't want to do. We live in a fallen, evil world. Satan if you will has been given free reign in this world. Y
263 ha763 : I guess it was my misunderstanding. I was thinking more of a church setting rules on who can get their marriage performed in the church by the priest
264 mariner : You;re completely missing my point: I remain unaware of any passage in the bible that denounces same-sex love - as opposed to sex. Unless you want to
265 mt99 : uh huh.. "special friendship".. just like ..Uncle Frank and Aunt Jack I personally know a guy who does drag and has been in loving relationship with
266 bjorn14 : You're right...why would G-d want us to hate any one...we are called to love our enemies.
267 DeltaMD90 : bjorn14, where does Jesus speak out against homosexuality? I know he speaks out against lust and unfaithfulness, but one can be gay AND unlustful/fait
268 bjorn14 : It is true that nothing specific is recorded about homosexuality in the four Gospels. However to assume that Jesus was neutral on this issue might be
269 mt99 : Ok great. So why if this truly applies across the board, how come Heterosexual can marry? How come murders, thief, adulterers, wicked, deceitful, pro
270 DocLightning : Great. To go back, god doesn't exist. The Bible is a work of fiction. Jesus may or may not have existed but he certainly wasn't magical. If you want
271 mariner : I disagree. To those of the (orthodox) Jewish faith, perhaps what you say may have some validity - but (a) not all Jews embraced that thinking and (b
272 RussianJet : Indeed a fine question. Something that selective religious quoters often 'choose' to overlook is the fact that sins are basically all considered to b
273 flipdewaf : There was also nothing much mentioned in the last frederick forsyth book I read but I'm not basing my life choices on that work of fiction. Indirect
274 DeltaMD90 : That's a lot of "ifs" to strip away rights of millions. I urge you to let go of what you learned from society, family, friends, interpretations of th
275 tugger : Why are we discussing an ancient handwritten book that was organized by a committee, and that is apparently unchangeable, as if it has the same equiva
276 Post contains images ATTart : Just had to post this..
277 Maverick623 : They most certainly can. I'd like to see those rules relaxed, too. Another law that I'd like to see repealed No, it doesn't. Which can drive down pro
278 Post contains links ATTart : This is a video from a Church in Indiana. ‘Ain’t no homo going to make it to heaven’ http://www.lgbtqnation.com/2012/05/c...o-homo-going-to-make
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