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Florida 180,000 Non-citizens May Be On Voter  
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2755 posts, RR: 8
Posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 4933 times:

Quote:
Florida election authorities are examining about 180,000 people who they say may not be U.S. citizens but are registered to vote in the state, an official said on Friday.



These are legal Aliens only.

Quote:
"We're going to vet a list of 180,000 people to try to come up with a real number," said Chris Cate, a spokesman for Florida's Division of Elections. "We don't want to jump to conclusions without a thorough investigation."

Officials in Florida have so far identified more than 2,600 potential voters who may not be U.S. citizens and sent their information to local election authorities, Cate said

Nearly 1,600 of the voters identified up until now reside in Miami-Dade County, Florida's most populous county, which includes the city of Miami.



2600 so far is way to many already. Hopefully they get these cleared up before the election

Quote:
Cate said some Florida officials have asked the Obama administration to grant the state access to databases maintained by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security to help determine who is a citizen.

"We've been requesting access, but have so far been denied," he said.



And this is to try and figure out how many illegals are on the voting rolls. But of course the Obama administration is not helping. Just imagine if they actually tried to follow the laws on the books. Florida can’t check for illegal aliens who registered to vote because the Federal government is not giving Florida access to Immigration and Naturalization Service records which would help identify illegals who have registered to vote.


http://mobile.reuters.com/article/idUSBRE84A1AF20120511?irpc=932

Funny that Obama is suing states to prevent them from stopping non citizens from voting and then preventing a state from researching illegals who may be voting. And of course we can cue up the always used defense of where is the proof that fraud is happening. Well here it is. Florida was decided by how many votes in 2000?


OMG-Obama Must Go
171 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6676 posts, RR: 6
Reply 1, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 4910 times:
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Quoting windy95 (Thread starter):
And of course we can cue up the always used defense of where is the proof that fraud is happening. Well here it is. Florida was decided by how many votes in 2000?

This can only mean that illegal aliens gave GWB the election !!

Shocking!. GWB was never our president.



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2552 posts, RR: 14
Reply 2, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 4887 times:

You never cease to amaze me, dear Americans.

Over here, we don't know any voter challenges at the polling station. As all residents have to register with the municipal authority when moving somewhere else, the authorities always know who has the voting rights and who hasn't.

Send the voting documents per bulk mailing to all Swiss citizen above 18 years in the municipality. Problem solved by a simple database query.

Quoting windy95 (Thread starter):
Well here it is. Florida was decided by how many votes in 2000?

Yes, this the really amazing thing...


Regards, David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6933 posts, RR: 12
Reply 3, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 4855 times:

Quoting windy95 (Thread starter):
These are legal Aliens only.
Quoting windy95 (Thread starter):
help identify illegals
Quoting windy95 (Thread starter):
researching illegals

Legal aliens or illegal aliens, which is it ?



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 4849 times:

Quoting windy95 (Thread starter):
Florida was decided by how many votes in 2000?

One. cast in Washington.

5 - 4 decision that deadlines are more important than votes. It sealed that the truth will never be none. Something that was already clear since the system was so poor that votes could not be counted accurately.

On top of that they realized the decision was so questionable they stated it can not be used as precedent.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40070 posts, RR: 74
Reply 5, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 4843 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 3):
Legal aliens or illegal aliens, which is it ?

Neither one are allowed to vote in US elections so it really doesn't matter.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 2):
You never cease to amaze me, dear Americans.

People breaking the law and a few corrupt politicians is not unique to the US.

Quoting windy95 (Thread starter):
Funny that Obama is suing states to prevent them from stopping non citizens from voting and then preventing a state from researching illegals who may be voting. And of course we can cue up the always used defense of where is the proof that fraud is happening.

Can this be taken to the US Supreme Court before the election?
Is examining the 2700+ pages of Obamacare keeping them tied up the rest of the year?



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2552 posts, RR: 14
Reply 6, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 4806 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 2):
You never cease to amaze me, dear Americans.
Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):
People breaking the law and a few corrupt politicians is not unique to the US.

If there is a way to put myself on the U.S. voter register as an alien... I'd gladly participate in the next election. There should be real safeguards against letting thousands of foreigners vote – something that hasn't been done in FL.

Some situations just beg to be exploited. 
Quoting cmf (Reply 4):
5 - 4 decision that deadlines are more important than votes. It sealed that the truth will never be none. Something that was already clear since the system was so poor that votes could not be counted accurately.

You just remembered me of this little interview: http://www.daveross.com/marklevine.html


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40070 posts, RR: 74
Reply 7, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 4803 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 6):
There should be real safeguards against letting thousands of foreigners vote – something that hasn't been done in FL.

I agree. The fact that the President is blocking every attempt to have clean, honest elections says a lot about where his loyalty is.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently onlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8965 posts, RR: 24
Reply 8, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4796 times:

Quoting windy95 (Thread starter):
Cate said some Florida officials have asked the Obama administration to grant the state access to databases maintained by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security to help determine who is a citizen.

"We've been requesting access, but have so far been denied," he said.

LOL, why am I not surprised.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 2):
Over here, we don't know any voter challenges at the polling station. As all residents have to register with the municipal authority when moving somewhere else, the authorities always know who has the voting rights and who hasn't.

Switzerland has a long history of being well-organized. Switzerland is the only country in the world with a "Place of Origin" system, and the system of "depositing your papers" when you move, that ensures that a person's status is well tracked. I can't imagine if they tried to do that here.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12964 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4784 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 2):
Over here, we don't know any voter challenges at the polling station. As all residents have to register with the municipal authority when moving somewhere else, the authorities always know who has the voting rights and who hasn't.

Send the voting documents per bulk mailing to all Swiss citizen above 18 years in the municipality. Problem solved by a simple database query.

Note that in the US we have "state's rights" which get in the way of your kind of solution.

Also the small problem of getting the 300 million residents living in 50 different states and tens of thousands of municipalities all into that single database.

The closest thing we have to such a thing is the US Census, but the accuracy of that info is debatable.

There is a law saying that everyone must respond to the Census, but that law is not enforced.

I was doing everything I could do to ignore the last Census but the government knew my weakness and sent a cute girl to my door and before I knew it I was in the Census.

I'm sure you could synthesize the info from the Census, the IRS database, the Social Security database, the state-level motor vehicle databases and perhaps the local property tax databases but it would not really be accurate. The only common key is the social security number, and as far as I know there is no requirement to provide the SSN to the motor vehicle department or the Census, so the only databases that share that info is the Social Security and IRS databases.

Quoting cmf (Reply 4):
the system was so poor that votes could not be counted accurately.

Yes, that is the sad truth.

I'm usually not a cynic, but I really believe the government doesn't want to fix this.

In my locality, voting is simple, cheap and easy to verify and recount. We just use permanent ink to fill in the right dot on the voting form, and it gets optically scanned. The forms are kept, and if there are any issues, you can just rescan the forms.

Instead, after the hanging chad incident, we saw all kinds of dodgy venders showing up with touch screen computer systems. Somehow people think computers are trustworthy, despite myriad data showing that they are not. Instead of handing out forms and permanent ink pens, now you need a computer at each station, and count on the software to not have intended or unintended back doors allowing for hanky-panky, and absolutely no way to do a recount.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently onlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9745 posts, RR: 31
Reply 10, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4781 times:

When I lived in NY I was aüpproached by election helpers for the guy running for mayor, don't remember the name but then it was the city with the deepest pot holes and the shortest mayor. I told them that I am no a citizen and could not vote. No worries the lady said. I did of course not register but oif that's the way it goes.....

As Flyingturtle said, with a system they have in Switzerland and a similar in Germany and many other European states such things cannot happen. Same goes fo false identities and all that works perfectly without finger prints, which we unfortunately have, voluntarily, if a biometric passport is needed. Guess who requested that BS.

It was Abe Beame, I memorized the first name, Beame was googled, I admit.

[Edited 2012-05-13 08:30:13]


Es saugt und blaest der Heinzelmann wo Mutti sonst nur blasen kann. Frueher war mehr Lametta.
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6676 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4773 times:
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Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):
Note that in the US we have "state's rights" which get in the way of your kind of solution.

Yup. you know the "state rights" that GOP loves to shout about. This sounds like a state problem. Florida screwed up their registration process. That GOP controlled Florida.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
"depositing your papers" when you move, that ensures that a person's status is well tracked. I can't imagine if they tried to do that here.

The TEA Party and the GOP right would go insane!!! They didn't want to fill the census. Imagine asking the Federal Gvnt asking for their movements

is that why Michelle Bachmann wanted to become swiss? so she could be tracked?



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2552 posts, RR: 14
Reply 12, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4773 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 7):

I don't know why this is any of the President's business. It's the state's duty to let voters register. They could demand evidence of citizenship (passport or birth certificate).

I just have filled a voter registration form. As ID, they demand my SS number or my driver's licence number. Both aren't proof of citizenship. Dooh... so it depends on another agency proving that I'm a US citizen.

I find your system worthy of improvement.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2552 posts, RR: 14
Reply 13, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4761 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 11):
Yup. you know the "state rights" that GOP loves to shout about. This sounds like a state problem. Florida screwed up their registration process. That GOP controlled Florida.

  

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8):
Switzerland has a long history of being well-organized. Switzerland is the only country in the world with a "Place of Origin" system, and the system of "depositing your papers" when you move, that ensures that a person's status is well tracked. I can't imagine if they tried to do that here.

Place of origin does prove citizenship, but it has/had another function – to send that place of origin the bill for social welfare if somebody needs support. Scores of years ago, citizens were even forced to move back to the place of origin if the place of living couldn't support you.

Yes, the U.S. is very afraid of tracking its citizen's movements. But I'd be happy if somebody explained how it is like that in your country.

Quoting mt99 (Reply 11):
is that why Michelle Bachmann wanted to become swiss? so she could be tracked?

   

Only if she lived here. You've got to check out of your municipality and then register with the new one in some weeks time. If you don't do it, the punishment is a mere annoyance though (about 50 US$), but health insurance and failing to file tax returns would be the bigger problem.



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2552 posts, RR: 14
Reply 14, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4758 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):
Note that in the US we have "state's rights" which get in the way of your kind of solution.

Also the small problem of getting the 300 million residents living in 50 different states and tens of thousands of municipalities all into that single database.

We do it on a municipal level, and it's also where you check in or out as a resident. The average community just has 2400 inhabitants. It's the municipalities that send you the ballots and open the polling stations. Votes are even hand-counted municipally. The local election commission signs the official municipal result and transmits it to the state office...

David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5657 posts, RR: 15
Reply 15, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4745 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 11):
Yup. you know the "state rights" that GOP loves to shout about. This sounds like a state problem. Florida screwed up their registration process. That GOP controlled Florida.

You're right, it is Florida's problem, with national implications. Let's ask why has the Obama administration 'stonewalled', not only Florida, but Colorado, also? These are states trying to fix a problem.

"The state has requested access to federal citizenship databases maintained by the Department of Homeland Security, which has stonewalled the request of Florida and Colorado as they've hunted for noncitizen voters."

http://www.tampabay.com/news/politic...floridas-list-of-potential/1229860

Could it be because

"Hispanic, Democratic and independent-minded voters are the most likely to be targeted in a state hunt to remove thousands of noncitizens from Florida's voting rolls, a Miami Herald computer analysis of elections records has found."?

Same article.

The Florida Department of State, as well as other states, are doing what they are supposed to do...verify that those who are registered to vote are also eligible to vote.

What, exactly, is wrong with that? We have 6 months to an election that will elect a president, potentially tip the balance in The Senate and determine the mood of The People in The House. Not to mention the thousands of local level elections can are affected. It seems to me that the states, at least those that care, are doing their darndest to make sure the election isn't marred by voter fraud. But, the Obama Administration is putting up roadblocks.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently onlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8965 posts, RR: 24
Reply 16, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 4743 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):
Note that in the US we have "state's rights" which get in the way of your kind of solution.

Also the small problem of getting the 300 million residents living in 50 different states and tens of thousands of municipalities all into that single database.
Quoting mt99 (Reply 11):
Yup. you know the "state rights" that GOP loves to shout about. This sounds like a state problem. Florida screwed up their registration process. That GOP controlled Florida.
Quoting mt99 (Reply 11):
The TEA Party and the GOP right would go insane!!! They didn't want to fill the census. Imagine asking the Federal Gvnt asking for their movements

You are missing the point. The Swiss system is much more states'-rights oriented than the US.

In Switzerland, you are considered a citizen of a particular municipality, which could be the place you were born (but not always). This is your "place of origin", and it never changes. I am a Swiss citizen, and my place of origin is Lupfig, in the canton of Aarau. It's a small town, population 2,000, and I have never lived there (I have visited twice, for paperwork reasons). I am listed there because of a complicated set of circumstances, but basically one of my ancestors was from there in the late 19th century and it stuck. So I am first and foremost a citizen of Lupfig, and it is up to that municipality to keep track of me. If I ask for a passport, or move to another town and ask to be able to vote there, the request does not go to some central authority in Bern - it goes to the young ladies who work at the Lupfig Rathaus (town hall).

Therefore, one's Swiss citizenship at a national level is by virtue of your being a citizen of a particular municipality, not the other way around.

And if you read the US Constitution, the same basic setup SHOULD be in place in the US.

Quote:
Article IV - The States

Section 2 - State citizens

The Citizens of each State shall be entitled to all Privileges and Immunities of Citizens in the several States.

Therefore, if you are a citizen of a state, you have citizen rights of all the states - i.e. you are a US Citizen - NOT the other way round. It should be the states who keep track of who is a citizen, not the federal government, who at most should be given the job of providing a centralized database, but the final authority, in case of conflict or discrepancy, should be the state's records. The states, in turn could, via their own laws or state constitutions, could (and maybe do) assign that responsibility to municipalities, in exactly the same way as Switzerland does.

Unfortunately, the system was never properly developed, and the Federal government now appears to have final authority on who is a citizen or not - in clear violation with the constitution, IMHO.

So no, I don't think the Tea Party and GOP would object to such a system, which would decentralize federal power. My comment was simply that it would be a fairly humongous job, to get the states to do it and then to dismantle the federal bureaucracy that currently deals with it.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinevarigb707 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 17, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4722 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 1):
hocking!. GWB was never our president.

You got that right!!!
  


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6733 posts, RR: 24
Reply 18, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 4702 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 16):
Therefore, if you are a citizen of a state, you have citizen rights of all the states - i.e. you are a US Citizen - NOT the other way round. It should be the states who keep track of who is a citizen, not the federal government, who at most should be given the job of providing a centralized database, but the final authority, in case of conflict or discrepancy, should be the state's records.

So every state will have to chase down and hunt down all it's citizens over the course of their lifetimes? How many bureaucrats do you want to hire to maintain this?

If you think the Federal government is bad, how many hundreds of thousands of state/municipal workers will you have to hire to keep track of everyone? And how much bureaucracy will you create for someone everytime they move? American's are some of the most mobile people in the world...moving many times over the course of their lives.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 16):
My comment was simply that it would be a fairly humongous job, to get the states to do it and then to dismantle the federal bureaucracy that currently deals with it.

And most of the states would simply refuse to do it because they would not have the resources.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 15):
The Florida Department of State, as well as other states, are doing what they are supposed to do...verify that those who are registered to vote are also eligible to vote.

But how did these suspect people get on the voter roles in the first place? How did the state allow so many foreigners to register? It's always funny that everyone wants to blame the federal government, but no one holds the states responsible for their broken systems.


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11800 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4684 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 2):
As all residents have to register with the municipal authority when moving somewhere else, the authorities always know who has the voting rights and who hasn't.

We have to do the same thing here. Problem is: the districts don't always follow up.

Wow. More fake outrage. Color me shocked /sarcasm I just wonder how many of these names on the voter rolls actually vote? My guess would be near zero. Kinda like how the tens of thousands of fake names were submitted to elections boards. Remember that outrage? Those votes could never be cast and counted because all the fake names were thrown out before the elections. But, oh the outrage!! No one voted, but let's be outraged!! Over people doing their job double checking names!! Outrage!!

Where are the jobs we were promised with the tax cuts for the wealthy? We have been told for years we can not raise tax rates on the wealthy because they are job creators. Unemployment is still at 8%. With the tax breaks, our unemployment should be near zero. Where are the jobs?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5657 posts, RR: 15
Reply 20, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4677 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 18):
But how did these suspect people get on the voter roles in the first place? How did the state allow so many foreigners to register?

In the previous thread concerning voter fraud, I posted links to some states' voter registration sites and showed where proof of citizenship is not required when you register. Let's look at Florida's application, shall we?

http://election.dos.state.fl.us/pdf/webappform.pdf

A: Are you a citizen?
Good start
B: Not a felon or rights restored?
OK
C: Mentally competent?
OK
D: DOB
OK
E: Florida Driver's License or ID number or last 4 digits of SSN or NONE
Now we see where the system breaks down. Looking at the instructions, someone without a drivers license or someone that chooses not to provide a license number or the last 4 of the SSN can check "None".

They then need to provide:

Special ID requirements: If you are registering by mail, have never voted in Florida, and have never been issued one of the ID numbers above, you must include with your application, or at a later time before you vote, one of the following:
 A copy of an ID that shows your name and photo (acceptable IDs) U.S. Passport, debit or credit card, military ID, Student ID, retirement center ID, neighborhood association ID, or public assistance ID; or
 A copy of an ID that shows your name and current residence address (acceptable documents) utility bill, bank statement, government check, paycheck, or other government document.

Do you see why it is possible for non-citizens to register to vote in Florida? and other states with similar requirements?

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 18):
It's always funny that everyone wants to blame the federal government, but no one holds the states responsible for their broken systems.

I absolutely hold the states responsible for this egregious oversight in their duties. But Florida, Colorado and others are trying to fix the problem and are asking for help from the only entity that has the information: the Federal Government. And the Federal Government, and by extension, the Obama Administration is refusing to help.

WHY?

As I've written before: we need verification of citizenship at the point of registration and we need proof of identity at the polls.

And, let me ask this question: why is a voter registration form, from any state, available in a language other than English? Shouldn't someone who is a citizen of the United States have at least a rudimentary knowledge of written English?



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2552 posts, RR: 14
Reply 21, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4662 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 18):
If you think the Federal government is bad, how many hundreds of thousands of state/municipal workers will you have to hire to keep track of everyone? And how much bureaucracy will you create for someone everytime they move? American's are some of the most mobile people in the world...moving many times over the course of their lives.

None. The young clerks who do the paperwork at the town hall are employed already and do lots of other stuff - they're the administrative workforce at the disposal of the municipal government. When I change my location, I just have to visit the town hall, show my ID and receive my notice of departure. With which I go to the new location, show the ID and the notice of departure... takes two times ten minutes.

And I can still live somewhere and the government won't know about it. In theory, I can give the address of a friend with whom I am "officially" living, and I get my tax- and voting-related stuff sent there. Well, I can't deny my existence and I have to care about taxes, else they will track me down. 


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2755 posts, RR: 8
Reply 22, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4652 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 16):
Quoting mt99 (Reply 11):
Yup. you know the "state rights" that GOP loves to shout about. This sounds like a state problem. Florida screwed up their registration process. That GOP controlled Florida.
Quoting mt99 (Reply 11):
The TEA Party and the GOP right would go insane!!! They didn't want to fill the census. Imagine asking the Federal Gvmt asking for their movements

You are missing the point. The Swiss system is much more states'-rights oriented than the US.



No he would be intentionally ignoring the point because he does not want to acknowledge the problem or fix it. The way the left would fix this is by making them all citizens.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 18):
But how did these suspect people get on the voter roles in the first place? How did the state allow so many foreigners to register? It's always funny that everyone wants to blame the federal government, but no one holds the states



The problem is that the state is trying to get info on the illegals in the state to make sure they are not voting. And Obama is blocking the release of that info. Yes the states have made mistakes but the feds are hindering them trying to fix it just like with the voter ID.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20344 posts, RR: 59
Reply 23, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4650 times:

Quoting windy95 (Thread starter):
And this is to try and figure out how many illegals are on the voting rolls. But of course the Obama administration is not helping.

No, of course not. The Obama administration is doing nothing about illegal immigration. It's not as if the Obama administration has deported more illegals than any other administration in history or anything.  
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 16):
Unfortunately, the system was never properly developed, and the Federal government now appears to have final authority on who is a citizen or not - in clear violation with the constitution, IMHO.

Well, your HO is wrong. Individual states cannot decide who is and who is not a citizen of other states. That is for the federal government to do.

I know this is difficult for you to understand, but you do not decide what is and isn't constitutional.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12964 posts, RR: 25
Reply 24, posted (2 years 7 months 1 week 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 4645 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 15):
"The state has requested access to federal citizenship databases maintained by the Department of Homeland Security, which has stonewalled the request of Florida and Colorado as they've hunted for noncitizen voters."

Before we get our panties twisted, can we know exactly which database is being requested, and whether or not there are legal reasons why access cannot be given? A lot of data is subject to privacy rules put in place by those who are rightly afraid of "big government". It'd also be nice to know exactly what was requested, by whom, and what the grounds for refusal were, and who the "stonewaller" is.

All in all, this is poor reporting.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
25 Post contains images flyingturtle : This is hilarious! Today, I tried that myself. However, they'd get a little suspicious when indicating a Swiss address. Wouldn't a birth certificate
26 Dreadnought : Funny, I thought I quoted the Constitution.
27 fr8mech : Oh, so not worthy of you Doc. Diverting the argument. We aren't discussing illegal immigration and what the Obama Administration has done about it, w
28 mt99 : No I'm not. i just pointing out that out that this "terrible system" gave GWB 2 elections gave the GOP a major victory in 2010 and now that Obama is
29 fr8mech : You know, none of the articles cited mention illegal aliens. They mention non-citizens. In my book that means legal and illegal immigrants. And, you
30 seb146 : And GWB and the right-wing did what about illegal immigration? Because elections is a states rights issue. States oversee elections. The states decid
31 DocLightning : No, not at all. I am pointing out that this view that the Obama administration is somehow "soft" on the issue of illegal immigration is a common righ
32 FlyPNS1 : Agreed. There should be no reason to bother the Federal government to ascertain citizenship. However, the states are simply too incompetent to do it.
33 Revelation : First of all, we really don't know what's going on here. We have one reporter saying one FL official said the Feds were "stonewalling". This may or m
34 fr8mech : Distraction from the discussion at hand. They are trying to deal with it and the administration is blocking them. Would you rather they revoke the re
35 KingairTA : Using Switzerland as an example is a joke its much easier when your dealing with 7.8 million people as opposed to 313 million.
36 flyingturtle : You've obviously not read how we do it. Residents are all registered with their municipalities, and it's the municipalities that organize the votes.
37 Ken777 : It's 2600 people who the State (GOP operatives) "think" "may" be ineligible. A Brain Fart at best. Why should they help? This is simply another effor
38 KingairTA : In an overly complicated inefficient manner. But that's a topic worthy of its own thread. My point is its easier for municipalities of a couple thousa
39 Dreadnought : Switzerland has large cities too. The municipality of Zurich has nearly 400,000 residents (the city itself is bigger but includes other municipalitie
40 Post contains images Mir : Unless we know more about what is being requested and what the various privacy laws are, we can't really answer that question. There could be a legit
41 seb146 : No. This thread is about immigration and illegal immigrants. What did GWB and the right wing do about illegal immigration? The right screams and crie
42 Dreadnought : No, this thread is about eligibility to vote. Immigration is a component, but not the whole story. Remember the whole thing about felons voting in Fl
43 seb146 : What??!!?? The right wing claims over and over again this never ever happens! Now, one staunch supporter says it does?? Wow.... just... wow... So, wh
44 mt99 : So was this why GWB won? Agreed.. and you cannot deny the political tint that these claims at this stage of the came. It was in mess in 2000, 2004 an
45 seb146 : Funny how it is only a mess when Democrats are showing leads in polls...
46 Dreadnought : Since when has the right (I presume you mean conservatives) said that everything was peachy? Sources? 1) The GOP has not controlled (i.e a supermajor
47 seb146 : Ohio. Senate. What about the House? The chamber that makes most of the rules? There's that word again... And where are the jobs we were promised?
48 flynlr : other than cost . simple solution. void 100 percent of all voter registrations in all states . and require state issued birth certificates to re-regis
49 bjorn14 : It was probably because of "Motor/Voter" rules. When you applied for a DL you simply checked the box asking if you wanted to be automatically registe
50 windy95 : Can you show us in the Constitution where it says this? The whole Governmetn has been soft on illegal immigration for a long time. Individual States
51 mt99 : Interesting,,so we are talking about "illegals" and not felons. How did these "non-citizens" vote in 2000, 2004 and 2010 in Florida? AQ study that sh
52 slider : Every attempt to have voter ID laws has been thwarted. I'm not a Republican, but I seem to recall they hadn't had control of both Houses either. Ever
53 Mir : Requiring an ID wouldn't stop fraud in this case because the very list the ID would be checked against isn't correct. If you want to beat the voter I
54 mt99 : hmm you were kinda qiuet about in 2010...
55 Post contains images slider : This is a good point and one I quote since the issue is about the voter rolls to begin with, not necessarily the transactional verification thereof a
56 mt99 : Absolutely. However, in practical terms why go complete nuts an overboard on a issue that or may not exist and may affect an insignificant small perc
57 slider : Because--and try to follow me here--having elections that are conducted with integrity is arguably one of THE most critical issues we have. Period. A
58 mt99 : So you want to piss some more out? Makes no sense,.Just because money is wastes elsewhere justifies more waste. It doesn't sound like something a fis
59 windy95 : The GOP never had 8 years to fix anything. They had zero years due to the verythin margin in the senate which could never get past the 60 votes for c
60 mt99 : Aww poor powerless GOP. And how many times did they try? The GOP has not been shy of passing things that are likely to be defeated like the Ryan Budg
61 Flighty : Both parties are in favor of illegals. Big business loves them. Liberals are tricked into believing illegals deserve to be here because you can't jus
62 seb146 : And the right using filibuster to block every attempt by Democrats to do anything. Which created all the jobs lost under Bush. In the private sector.
63 Dreadnought : Until the day comes when the Dems in the senate are willing to consider a budget (which they have not for over 3 years, and does not require a superm
64 cmf : Sorry for introducing more but it isn't just about felons and non-citizens voting. I can't remember an election in south Florida where there isn't a
65 seb146 : And, yet, when anyone dared talk about that number when the right was in control, we were terrorists and hated America. Worth considering. Democrats
66 Post contains images slider : They're all sacred. But you really need to get over your Bush Derangement Syndrome already.
67 Post contains images mt99 : Hahha that sounds like something you catch after a night in Vegas Seriously tough, If Romney wins - how long till we are prosperous again, and Americ
68 Post contains images Dreadnought : What jobs? The number of people who have been out of work for more than their unemployment benefits take them (and thus they fall out of the unemploy
69 mt99 : Oh.. i though all you crazy anti-Obama people though that it was possible.
70 slider : Well, that's a separate topic, frankly. However, at the risk if hijacking the thread, I'm not a Romney fan either. Moderate at best. Spotty record as
71 Dreadnought : Time to shed your prejudices and stereotypes, buddy.
72 mt99 : Are you making excuses for Romney already?
73 Post contains links Dreadnought : Give me an example. C'mon. You can't because you just made that up. Democrats don't own pencils? Why didn't they propose a budget? Oh wait - Obama di
74 Dreadnought : Are you being childish on purpose?
75 mt99 : No- are you?
76 Dreadnought : You consistently refuse to address the questions and issues: And so forth - all silly irrelevant comments simply meant to get people riled up while a
77 mt99 : You are the one avoiding answering why is 2012 different than the 2000, 2004 and 2010 elections. The "system" worked to get GWB elected. It worked fo
78 bjorn14 : Ask Al Gore if it's a problem. Only if you can't win fair and square. It took Reagan about 18 months.
79 Dreadnought : Who ever said it was different? You are making up an issue where none exists.
80 mt99 : Finally!- you agree then, that the OP concern does not exist. If 2012 is no different than 2000, 2004 and 2010 then why should there be an issue now
81 Dreadnought : It has always been a problem, but in my opinion, those who seek to use fraudulent votes are better organized and more motivated to do so now than eve
82 mt99 : Exactly, No problem then, No problem now. Issue Solved And there is the political anti-Obama tint. Thanks for clarifying.
83 Post contains images aloges : Just out of interest: is this thread an accurate representation of the political climate in the USA? I thought that it had cooled off slightly after t
84 Post contains links Dreadnought : Please provide a source that there was no fraud in Florida in 2000. Put your money where your mouth is. On my part I provide testimony that there was
85 Post contains links mt99 : I am not saying that there wasn't frauds. The links you gave included many other fraud forms other than the one that we are discussing in this thread
86 seb146 : Like when they said Obama would suspend the Constitution and take away all our guns the second he was elected. Still waiting.... Except the House con
87 Post contains images flyingturtle : You are either a hero – or a fool – by asking this. David
88 bjorn14 : Huh? Punahou (Elite HA Prep School)? Private. Occidental? Private. Columbia? Private. Harvard? Private. We have no evidence that he paid for any of h
89 Post contains links and images Dreadnought : I never heard that. Source? And the Senate stalls all bills, and President threatens to veto everything. Source? Was it Barney Frank? The Ryan budget
90 Post contains images Superfly : I've even read stories suggesting that the Saudi Royal Family paid for his education at Columbia and Harvard. Who knows? Obama spend over $2,000,000.
91 windy95 : No anti Obama tint. Why are you against making sure every vote counts and is done by a legal citizen who is eligible to vote. Correct. The left seems
92 Post contains images aloges : probably a fool... for thinking that the slight hint might get noticed
93 Dreadnought : No, I think they simply know that most of the fraud is in their favor, and don't want to lose the percentage points advantage it gives them.
94 Revelation : Well, if he was so good at concealing his past, how come he didn't conceal the $2M he paid to conceal his past? Would it cost him another $2M to conc
95 seb146 : Did we ever find out: A. Did any of them vote? B. What party are they registered with? The left knows there is fraud. What the left does NOT want is
96 Dreadnought : Funny, I thought a solvent economy and a vibrant economy that encourages entrepreneurship and hard work would benefit everyone. Silly me... I went to
97 FlyPNS1 : You do realize that anyway we balance the budget will lead to massive long-term unemployment for millions of people. Whether you cut social security,
98 Mir : Because drastically cutting government won't do the same thing? -Mir
99 Post contains links bjorn14 : Speaking of budgets Obama's just got waxed 99-0 in the U.S. Senate. Not even the hardcore Marxists support him anymore. The House blanked him too 414-
100 Dreadnought : The difference is that we need a military far more than you need a lot of federal government bureaucrats.
101 Mir : That is, of course, a separate issue from why you warn of the economic impact of putting lots of members of the military on the street, but I've neve
102 Post contains images Ken777 : I would say 2 to 3 generations Well, that problem should be fixes rather fast as the REPUBLICAN Governor of Michigan grabbed the power to take over c
103 seb146 : Funny... I thought Obama was the only Marxist. Or is it Maoist? Or Socialist? Or Statist? Or Stalinist? I guess it is Marxist this week. No one ever
104 Dreadnought : No it won't and it will be better in the long term. Most government bureaucrats do not add any value to society. They are a net cost, no different th
105 FlyPNS1 : But government bureaucrats make up only a small fraction of government spending. Even if you fired every government worker, you'd still have a massiv
106 seb146 : Actually, Democrats are concerned with the teachers that are being thrown out of work by the union busting by the right as well as the disrepair thes
107 Post contains links windy95 : 53,000 Dead Voters Found in Florida Florida election officials are set to announce that the secretary of state has discovered and purged up to 53,000
108 slider : I'm very glad you posted this as I was about to if someone hadn't. HOW TIMELY! I wonder if any of those who have heretofore noted that voter fraud is
109 Post contains images Mir : I don't think anyone has said that voter fraud isn't an issue. The concern is that the efforts to combat such fraud would do more harm to the democra
110 Post contains links tugger : How is this related to voter fraud? Dead people on the rolls does not mean fraud. Can you tell me how many of these dead people have voted since thei
111 flyingturtle : Voting in the name of dead people is an old and tried concept... David
112 Post contains links windy95 : Removing dead people and non-citizens from the roll's is political and a waste of time? This is political http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/02/us...orid
113 tugger : ?? And? Is there anything showing that a dead person voted? I haven't. And I am certain it would be all over the news if it had. Didn't say it was a
114 Post contains images Ken777 : Start with ATC? Then the FDA, CDC, other similar "unneeded" employees and departments? Cut others in half, like Border Patrol, FBI. Overpaid and not
115 Post contains links Dreadnought : Happens all the time - the problem is that when it does happen, there is pretty much no way to prove it happened, apart from an after-the-fact review
116 tugger : You are wrong. Flat wrong. There is an absolute way to prove it happened. Just check the roles of the deceased and see if they have voted after they
117 Post contains links Dreadnought : That's the way they are finding them - but only months after the election and after the votes have been certified and the pol sworn in. 2,600 dead pe
118 mt99 : Do we know for a fact that does favor Democrats?
119 Dreadnought : It's my opinion, based on my personal experience that liberals tend to lie and cheat more often than others. In my business, if I know that the perso
120 mt99 : That is evidence beyond reproach! How can you opinion be wrong!
121 Dreadnought : Which is why I said it was simply my opinion. Don't be a plick.
122 windy95 : And politician's are really good at delivering tax dollars to Teacher's unions who are in the business of looting our tax dollars.
123 mt99 : You only stated it as "your opinion" when pressed. In your original post you did not mention it was you opinion. BTW you misspelled "prick"
124 cmf : It has been brought up after just about every election in Miami-Dade and to a lesser extent in Broward.
125 flyingturtle : No. The Election of the Living Dead is still a Hollywood project, and I would like to see it turned into a major blockbuster. But I'm not sure if it
126 Post contains images Dreadnought : I said: which hints that it's my opinion/belief I did not - I just watched Lethal Weapon 4 last night. I liked Benny
127 mt99 : Ha OK.. Not that you care, but so from now all your statements shall be met with a "hint" of you opinion.
128 tugger : I guarantee you that any finding that could change the outcome of the election would void the results and a new election would be called. Then why di
129 Dreadnought : I know that has happened at municipal levels for small towns (basically because the pol in question would get the crap beaten out of him in the stree
130 Post contains links tugger : http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/12/wa...ington/12fraud.html?pagewanted=all http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011...rget-rarely-occurring-voter-fraud/ ht
131 Dreadnought : I agree with that. I think mail-in ballots should be notarized. But why added security on mail-in ballots when you don't insist on any security at th
132 tugger : The public nature of voting is it's greatest strength. Anyone can see that the person is voting and voting by themselves and confidentially and that
133 cmf : I think it is a significant problem that routines are so poor it happens each and every time. Apart from the famous presidential election where the s
134 seb146 : And, how many votes is that, exactly? As long as that one vote is for a Democrat. If it is for any right-winger, there is no problem... Newt Gingrich
135 flyingclrs727 : No there won't. You can still vote a provisional ballot. The vote won't be counted unless an ID is shown to the voting registrar's office prior to ca
136 Post contains links windy95 : Florida refuses to halt voter registration cleanup http://www.humanevents.com/2012/06/0...o-halt-voter-registration-cleanup/ As I figured they would.
137 Ken777 : Maybe that 91 year old WW II Vet (with the Bronze Star) still has a valid driver's license so he can prove he's an American. Or do you thing that the
138 Post contains links Superfly : Like this guy? http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lv95vgRY4r1qctkcl.jpg
139 Post contains links Dreadnought : Michelle Obama makes her position clear: Asking for ID is perfectly reasonable: http://obamafoodorama.blogspot.com/2...irst-lady-michelle-obama-will.h
140 seb146 : Your title is misleading. The same protocal is expected for Barbara Bush, Laura Bush, and Nancy Reagan as well as Roselyn Carter and Hillary Clinton.
141 Dreadnought : I dn't care if they are the reincarnation of Christ. So you are saying that requiring an ID to go to a book signing is reasonable, an ID to vote (abo
142 Post contains images Superfly : I didn't need to show ID when I met President George H Bush at CalTech when I was in high school in 1989. Didn't need to show ID when I meet Vice Pre
143 Ken777 : Bit different than the exposure of a current resident of the White House. Kudos to her on being wiling to go out and sign books in public/ You don't
144 Superfly : Please read my entire post. Papa Bush and Al Gore were in office when I met them and no ID was required for me to meet them. Yet you insinuate that f
145 seb146 : I am saying they are two separate issues that have nothing to do with the other. Michelle Obama is the CURRENT first lady. Because of the hatred and
146 Ken777 : I say they have the right to help set their security. Just like the other members of their family. Current residences of the White House, IMO. need t
147 Superfly : Carter's book signing was AFTER 9/11. Papa Bush and Al Gore were in office AFTER the JFK assassination.
148 Mir : Before 9/11. Long since out of office. -Mir
149 Superfly : ...and still a much more prominent person than a first lady. ...and after the assassination of JFK. So that said, can anyone explain why it's necessa
150 Mir : From a security perspective, no. Ken brought up, not me. I wasn't around when JFK was assassinated, but I was around on 9/11, and I do remember the v
151 seb146 : I think it is interesting that a right-wing governer in Florida is doing this. Imagine the uproar if it had been a Democrat in a percieved left-leani
152 Ken777 : The killing of a First Lady is far different than an illegal voting. You are still looking for excuses for Florida (and other states) to put up obstr
153 windy95 : That would be because they are showing up in the system as non-citizens. Does it matter what color a non-citizen is? Doea it matter what color a citi
154 Ken777 : So someone with a "funny name" will show up as a non-citizen? Or someone who hasn't needed a photo ID for years - like that 91 year old WW II Vet. Th
155 tugger : What do you mean "before it is big enough? It is not big at all, or is it all a conspiracy that you do not have anything demonstrating the is a probl
156 Dreadnought : Completely bogus argument. The right of people to vote is restricted to citizens (in all countries, not just in ours), thus asking for ID to verify y
157 seb146 : That would be a good way of doing it too. The day after every election, throw out all voter rolls and give people until a specific deadline to re-reg
158 tugger : Actually it was not always that way. For a long time non-citizens in the USA could vote in federal elections. And if states wish it, non-citizens can
159 Dreadnought : But for the past 150 years, it IS that way. The Section 2 of 14th amendment specifically states that only citizens may vote in federal elections. It
160 windy95 : I would think all states would want to do this. Not just Florida. Hit the refresh button.
161 Post contains links windy95 : Florida to sue DHS in voter registration battle Gov Rick Scott http://thehill.com/video/in-the-news...e-dhs-in-voter-registration-battle For almost a
162 seb146 : So, if SAVE is a federal program made avaliable to federal agencies, two things: 1. It is not available to states, the way I read it. 2. If it is ava
163 Post contains links Dreadnought : http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/usc...ec0c7c8110VgnVCM1000004718190aRCRD It is designed to verify entitlement to state and local programs, which woul
164 windy95 : When you use your license to register to vote through motor voter laws it would be used. Notices it says benefits and licenses Making Nixon look like
165 Revelation : Such hyperbole. Your a.net profile shows you're old enough to remember Watergate....
166 Post contains links and images Superfly : ...and Obama's operation is to minimize the amount of votes Romney gets. Hence why the election results will be counted by an Obama supporting compan
167 windy95 : At least 141 non-citizens have been found on the voter rolls and 47 on this list have cast ballots in previous elections. That is already one to many
168 bjorn14 : The Secret Service also handles the security for ex-Presidents too. Clinton is the last to get lifetime protection.
169 Mir : Out of a possible 180,000. Wow! That's almost 0.08%! -Mir
170 Post contains links ATTart : Pa. House Republican Leader Mike Turzai speaks on June 23, 2012 - Voter ID will allow Romney to win Pa. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuOT1bRYdK8[Edi
171 mt99 : Will that be the excuse if Willard Von Romney looses? I guess its never too early to put your duck in a row
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