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Medical Evidence Martin Case Supports Zimmerman  
User currently offlineikramerica From United States of America, joined May 2005, 21532 posts, RR: 59
Posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5912 times:

There's a reason charges weren't filed right away, it would seem, and it took a political backlash for someone un-involved in the case to file poorly backed charges. It was a rush to judgment by politicians while the proper investigators had not completed their own investigation, (or had, and had determined that the evidence supported the initial account).

Coroner's report shows, other than the gunshot wound which ended the encounter, Martin had no defensive injuries nor injuries consistent with being assaulted. Only scraped knuckles, injuries consistent with striking someone.

Zimmerman's medical records from the following morning show clear signs that he was assaulted for a period of time by someone of great strength, including a broken nose, two black eyes, and cuts on the back of his head.

Any wonder the press and president and others have stopped paying attention? They got their "issue" for the election year in a swing state and then moved on once the facts were more clear. What was once front page news before the facts were more clear is now way down the page on CNN, because now a motorist colliding with a moose, the facebook IPO news of the day, and google search being more human are more important.

Whether or not one believes Z had the right to shoot M as a result of getting beat down, the story he told of M doubling back and jumping him and beating the crap out of him seems to be far more likely today. And certainly there was no reason for M to be crying out for help as non-witnesses claim considering the autopsy findings. He wasn't being injured, subdued, held down, beaten, etc. No bruising, lacerations or contusions to support any of that.

Now the question is whether Zimmerman did or didn't continue to follow Martin and attack him (causing no injury), or if he stopped following him as directed and was then jumped, as he claims. But ultimately, the initial planted picture we were given of a smiling, defenseless 13 year old kid isn't what Zimmerman encountered that day. Martin was not defenseless, and seemed strong enough to not sustain any defensive wounds or injuries from the alleged assault he suffered, and was plenty strong to beat up a grown man.

Then the question also becomes, is this self-defense, manslaughter, or the original charge of 2nd degree murder, meaning he intended to assault him so badly that death was a real possibility. Medical evidence doesn't seem to support 2nd degree murder, unless Zimmerman started charging Martin with a gun intent on killing him and telling him he had a gun, and Martin somehow jumped Zimmerman before that happened, beat the crap out of him, and then was still shot (wouldn't more than one shot be fired in that situation?). And what in Zimmerman's history indicates he would be out to shoot someone for sport? Why was a teen unable to outrun a middle-aged man? Who turns around to face a man with a gun when he's not at hand-to-hand distance? And who goes after a man's face if he has a gun out rather than trying to get rid of the gun? M was aware he was being followed. Z didn't have the element of surprise. The family story that M only beat the crap out of Z because he feared for his life doesn't make sense if Z was holding a gun, unless M was on something or out of control.

Manslaughter seems much more likely if it is determined that Z continued to follow M before M turned around and engaged the confrontation, as non-witnesses claim. Self-defense if it is determined M doubled back to find Z after Z stopped following as directed by 911, as he claimed, M threatened to kill Z (not other way around), and Z pulled out a weapon to try to keep him away.

And sadly (not as sad as someone losing a life), at this point, if it is found Z is not the hitler he was made out to be and not convicted, or even if he is able to plead down to some form of manslaughter to make it all go away, there will be riots and innocent people will be harmed, all because irresponsible "leaders" jumped the gun, making a martyr out of someone who maybe wasn't so martyr-worthy.

If only the national leaders and main-stream press would care as much about people shot or beaten to death by police for little or no reason. Occasionally, it is elevated to the Rodney King level (despite him being another non-martyr-worthy fellow), but then here in LA over the last year, we have police beating to death a white homeless man (Kelly Martin) known to them while he begs for his life because he didn't cooperate with the commands given after he was suspected of looking in cars to find somewhere to sleep ("I'm going to F you up" were those commands given, BTW, on tape), shooting a white drunk man to death in broad daylight without warning because he was holding a garden hose nozzle sitting on his front steps, and here in my local city next door to LA, our intrepid police shooting an un-armed black alleged petty thief's lookout on the street because he "reached" for something.

"Reaching for something" or "having something that might have been confused for a weapon by an untrained near-sighted person but certainly not a swarm of cops" seems to the the valid excuse for killing anyone when it comes to the cops (killing a black costumed actor through the window of a Halloween party because he had a toy "weapon" as part of his costume for example), so much so that most of the national press and politicians just move on the next day if they get involved at all, but having your face pummeled on a dark and rainy night isn't good enough for a private citizen to defend himself, or at least to wait for the facts to come out, before everyone with power goes ape poop.

Anyway, rant over. Hope everyone who contributed to the other thread denying all of Z's claims and buying all of the family's claims (despite not being on the scene) takes a minute to think about your own contribution in a rush to judgment. Or you can just claim what M's family is claiming, that the doctor is a liar, falsifying medical reports, and that the truthful and honest family gave that "13 year" picture to the press because it was the only one they could find. Weeks after the event. Couldn't find one recent picture of their completely gentle young child. Or you could believe a doctor who can lose his license and be prosecuted for falsifying records in a criminal proceeding...


Of all the things to worry about... the Wookie has no pants.
187 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2728 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5902 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Thread starter):
Any wonder the press and president and others have stopped paying attention? They got their "issue" for the election year in a swing state and then moved on once the facts were more clear

You forgot that the FBI just announced that Zimmerman is being investigated for a hate crime. To bad they will not investigate Fast and Furious. What a joke.

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/...george-zimmerman-hate-crime/nN5pR/

Quoting ikramerica (Thread starter):
all because irresponsible "leaders" jumped the gun, making a martyr out of someone who maybe wasn't so martyr-worthy.

Yep.

Quoting ikramerica (Thread starter):
Anyway, rant over. Hope everyone who contributed to the other thread

Thanks for the great post.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19727 posts, RR: 58
Reply 2, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5879 times:

This, folks, is why there is something called a "trial."

User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4527 posts, RR: 18
Reply 3, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 5865 times:

Interesting these medical 'reports' indicate he had a broken nose, there is no mention of X-rays. If indeed he had a broken nose and two black eyes why are there no pictures of these injuries.



Even if these injuries are substantiated it did not give Z the right to shoot and kill an UNARMED man.



He should have followed Police instructions and left T alone.



Just being a Wannabe Cop does not give you the authority of a real one.



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlineQFA380 From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 2075 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5841 times:

Quoting Max Q (Reply 3):

Even if these injuries are substantiated it did not give Z the right to shoot and kill an UNARMED man.


Assume Zimmerman isn't lying for a second and then think what you would do in that exact situation. You're a neighbourhood watch, carrying a gun as is completely legal for you. See someone strange walking around at night, tag along behind him, call the cops, the cops tell you not to follow him. You say ok and head back to your truck, while walking the guy you were following jumps you and starts beating you, threatening to kill you. All the while there is no one around to help you, and you both know you have a gun, a gun that if you let the beating continue he could take and shoot you or others. He is standing over you so you draw your gun and shoot him in the largest target area, his chest. having undergone a course to get his concealed carry permit you probably know that a person is unlikely to die from a single bullet to the chest and that if you intended to kill him, a few more would have been required.

Plenty of reasonable people would conclude that assuming Zimmerman was not lying and was obeying relevant laws then it was reasonable for him to shoot. And now this medical evidence is just showing that Zimmerman most likely wasn't lying.

You and I both know that he won't get convicted though, I'm hoping that his trial ends a few weeks before the election, exploding in Obama's face for his flagrant race baiting.


User currently onlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21638 posts, RR: 55
Reply 5, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5827 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
This, folks, is why there is something called a "trial."

   If you shoot an unarmed person, you should go on trial. If they find out that it was justified, then you're either found not guilty or the charges are dropped, and that's the end of it.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineCompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 1201 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 5821 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Thread starter):
Any wonder the press and president and others have stopped paying attention? They got their "issue" for the election year in a swing state and then moved on once the facts were more clear. What was once front page news before the facts were more clear is now way down the page on CNN, because now a motorist colliding with a moose, the facebook IPO news of the day, and google search being more human are more important.

I love conspiracy theories  .

Do you know why this is no longer front page news? Because public interest has waned. Zimmerman & Martin was yesterday's news. If the public craved more of this story, CNN would have no problem dedicating oodles of resources to it (after all, they've slipped behind their own HLN at times as the fourth rated news channel). But people have moved on.

[Edited 2012-05-16 18:00:23]


Hypocrisy: "US airlines should only buy Boeing... BTW, check out my new Hyundai!"
User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3069 posts, RR: 4
Reply 7, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5773 times:

Quoting CompensateMe (Reply 6):

Do you know why this is no longer front page news? Because public interest has waned.

Explanation is very simple.The media wants to bury this story as fast as possible of all the political bias it sided with and not to admit any edited and condensing both video and audio tapes that ABC and NBC did. This case will never go away of the ugliness that it portrayed in the first few days of the case.The media couldn't even get a proper race ID right on Zimmerman.

The media will never admit to guilt.It is too arrogant to admit fault.It's being sweep under the carpet.Even Obama is guilty for that stupid "son" comment.

Only people like and you and I need to remind the media,"We want the truth,to whole truth and nothing but the truth!"

And finally in IMHO,in any other circles,people would be lose their jobs,reputation ruined and be charged with obstruction of justice of the what the media did.



Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11660 posts, RR: 15
Reply 8, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 5766 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Thread starter):
from the following morning

So, there was no way at all that he could have gotten into any altercation after he left police custody? Interesting...

Quoting windy95 (Reply 1):
Fast and Furious.

That was begun under GWB.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4527 posts, RR: 18
Reply 9, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5726 times:

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 4):

Assume Zimmerman isn't lying for a second

Why ?

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 4):
what you would do in that exact situation

I do not carry, or have a gun I would not have been in that situation.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 4):
You're a neighbourhood watch, carrying a gun as is completely legal for you

It may be legal but neighborhood watch specifically prohibits guns. He was looking for trouble.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 4):
See someone strange walking around at night, tag along behind him, call the cops, the cops tell you not to follow him

Go home, game over.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 4):
You say ok and head back to your truck, while walking the guy you were following

You were told not to follow him.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 4):
guy you were following jumps you and starts beating you, threatening to kill you.

Pure speculation on your part.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 4):
All the while there is no one around to help you, and you both know you have a gun, a gun that if you let the beating continue he could take and shoot you or others. He is standing over you so you draw your gun and shoot him in the largest target area, his chest. having undergone a course to get his concealed carry permit you probably know that a person is unlikely to die from a single bullet to the chest and that if you intended to kill him, a few more would have been required.

You directly contributed to and created this situation. If this is under the guise of neighborhood watch then why carry a gun ? It is only going to bring the possibilty of a shooting as happened.




This ridiculous 'stand your ground' law gives the armed gun nut more rights than the unarmed citizen.




Z was a wannabe Cop looking for trouble, he made numerous calls to 911 before this tragedy, constantly bothering Police, thinking this would somehow make up for his failed attempt at becoming a real one.



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlineMaverick623 From United States of America, joined Nov 2006, 5648 posts, RR: 6
Reply 10, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5683 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Thread starter):
Martin had no defensive injuries

Which does not mean he wasn't threatened.

Quoting ikramerica (Thread starter):
great strength, including a broken nose, two black eyes, and cuts on the back of his head.

No offense, but it doesn't take "great strength" to cause any of those injuries. A toddler can give you a black eye if they smack you just right.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 3):
UNARMED

Does not mean "not deadly"

Quoting Max Q (Reply 3):
He should have followed Police instructions and left T alone.

Police gave him no such instruction. A dispatcher said they don't need him to follow Martin. The dispatcher's instruction carries no weight in a criminal trial.

Quoting Mir (Reply 5):
you should go on trial.

When that happens:

Quoting Mir (Reply 5):
the charges are dropped

That can't. You are either found guilty or not guilty. It is up to the prosecution to drop the charges, a power you want to strip away.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 9):
neighborhood watch specifically prohibits guns.

Source?

Quoting Max Q (Reply 9):

Pure speculation on your part.

Says the guy who says:

Quoting Max Q (Reply 3):
Just being a Wannabe Cop

...

Quoting Max Q (Reply 9):
You directly contributed to and created this situation.

A meaningless statement. What is relevant is whether a) Zimmerman directly provoked Martin into attacking him or b) the use of deadly force was justified.

Under Florida law, if (a) is found to be not true, than the injuries suffered by Zimmerman and the non-injuries suffered by Martin makes (b) true.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 9):
constantly bothering Police,

Because he reported a suspicious person in an area with recent burglaries? Sounds to me like the police weren't too bothered, considering they never filed any charges.



"PHX is Phoenix, PDX is the other city" -777Way
User currently offlineMax Q From United States of America, joined May 2001, 4527 posts, RR: 18
Reply 11, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5667 times:

The very act of carrying a gun into a volatile situation guarantees a tragic outcome.



Z was looking for trouble and got what he was looking for.



The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3380 posts, RR: 9
Reply 12, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5665 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Thread starter):
Zimmerman's medical records from the following morning show clear signs that he was assaulted for a period of time by someone of great strength, including a broken nose, two black eyes, and cuts on the back of his head.

I want to know what the numbers on this kid were (height and weight) I will accept that the media used old photos, but to imply great strength would imply that this kid was of the physique of football player (ex. 6'2, 250lbs).

The last I heard he was 6'0 150-170 lbs. which is pretty skinny. Although great strength may not be determined by simply looking at someone.

What actually might hurt Zimmerman here is that there are no attack or defence wounds on Martin meaning the struggle was entirely one-sided.

Now wouldn't there be an attempt by Zimmerman to fight back before feeling the need to shoot Martin. Zimmerman doesn't look like someone who is a shrimp and he could have fought back to get free and if successful then draw his gun to attempt to neutralize the situation. Also if he couldn't break free how could he get to his gun??

Quoting ikramerica (Thread starter):
Then the question also becomes, is this self-defense, manslaughter, or the original charge of 2nd degree murder, meaning he intended to assault him so badly that death was a real possibility.

Look I'm happy the case is seeing a courtroom if he gets off then so be it. If I had to guess the best the DA could get is involuntary manslaughter and if they can prove self-defense then Zimmerman doesn't get any time.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):

This, folks, is why there is something called a "trial."

  

Let justice be done.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 9):
It may be legal but neighborhood watch specifically prohibits guns. He was looking for trouble.

He was a "Self Appointed" member of the neighbourhood watch and not the head of any community registered neighbourhood watch program. I bet if you asked people in Sanford some might say Zimmerman may have been somewhat of a nuisance.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 10):
No offense, but it doesn't take "great strength" to cause any of those injuries. A toddler can give you a black eye if they smack you just right.

If that was on a coroner's report then it is pretty unprofessional.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 13, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5553 times:

Assuming Zimmerman is innocent. . .

Quoting Max Q (Reply 3):
Even if these injuries are substantiated it did not give Z the right to shoot and kill an UNARMED man.

The fact that Martin was unarmed is completely meaningless. He attacked, and therefore Zimmerman had the right to defend himself.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 3):
He should have followed Police instructions and left T alone.

Indeed.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 3):
Just being a Wannabe Cop does not give you the authority of a real one.

Any human being should have the right to defend oneself and their property.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 11):
The very act of carrying a gun into a volatile situation guarantees a tragic outcome.

Z was looking for trouble and got what he was looking for.

This is like saying a cop gets into a shooting, therefore he was looking for trouble and got what he was looking for.

[Edited 2012-05-17 05:46:55]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 14, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 5549 times:

Quoting Max Q (Reply 9):
I do not carry, or have a gun I would not have been in that situation.

If Martin knew Zimmerman had a gun, I highly doubt he would have attacked Zimmerman.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2728 posts, RR: 8
Reply 15, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 5538 times:

Quoting Max Q (Reply 3):
Even if these injuries are substantiated it did not give Z the right to shoot and kill an UNARMED man.

Yes it does. And being unarmed does not make it any less a dangerous situation for Zimmerman. It just takes one wrong smach of the head against the ground to kill or leave you brain damaged for the rest of your life.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 3):
He should have followed Police instructions and left T alone.

He did.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 8):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 1):Fast and Furious.
That was begun under GWB.

Nope.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 9):
I do not carry, or have a gun I would not have been in that situation

Most people do not get to pick and choose these situations. You carry for the reason that it may come your way one day.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 9):
It may be legal but neighborhood watch specifically prohibits guns. He was looking for trouble.

Source

Quoting Max Q (Reply 9):
You were told not to follow him.

And he said OK and stopped. He had already lost Trayvon by that time.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 9):
Pure speculation on your part.

Not really. it fit's with what Zimmerman said and what yo hear on the 911 call

Quoting Max Q (Reply 9):
If this is under the guise of neighborhood watch then why carry a gun ?

To protect yourself.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 9):
This ridiculous 'stand your ground' law gives the armed gun nut more rights than the unarmed citizen.

No it gives every citizen the right to defend themselves.

Quoting Max Q (Reply 11):
The very act of carrying a gun into a volatile situation guarantees a tragic outcome

It helps ensure that you are not that tragic outcome.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1834 posts, RR: 10
Reply 16, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5511 times:

Quoting ikramerica (Thread starter):
And what in Zimmerman's history indicates he would be out to shoot someone for sport?

History is the best indicator for future behaviour, but history has to start somewhere. I'm not saying that because I think he's guilty, but it goes for just about anything. I'm gnoring the "for sport" part because that is just a ridiculous thing to say.

Quoting ikramerica (Thread starter):
think about your own contribution in a rush to judgment

Anything said in this thread before the trial starts is a rush to judgment, including your rant. I'm going to wait until the trial starts before deciding who I believe. Right now it's a bit of a toss-up.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 4):
You say ok and head back to your truck, while walking the guy you were following jumps you and starts beating you, threatening to kill you.

That's incredibly speculative.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 13):
This is like saying a cop gets into a shooting, therefore he was looking for trouble and got what he was looking for

Umm...isn't it a cop's job to look for trouble? I'm pretty sure they're paid to confront suspicious persons and chase criminals.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 15):
Quoting Max Q (Reply 3):
He should have followed Police instructions and left T alone.

He did.
Quoting windy95 (Reply 15):
Quoting Max Q (Reply 9):
You were told not to follow him.

And he said OK and stopped. He had already lost Trayvon by that time.

More speculation. I don't think we've seen proof for this.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 15):
Quoting Max Q (Reply 11):
The very act of carrying a gun into a volatile situation guarantees a tragic outcome

It helps ensure that you are not that tragic outcome.

This is what bugs (scares) me. In the US there's this "better him than me" mentality, even if one's life isn't really threatened, that results in disproportionately high gun deaths compared to other Western countries. It seems in certain parts of the country that people will reach for their gun before their common sense.



Flying refined.
User currently offlinejbirdav8r From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 4491 posts, RR: 21
Reply 17, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5509 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 16):
This is what bugs (scares) me. In the US there's this "better him than me" mentality, even if one's life isn't really threatened, that results in disproportionately high gun deaths compared to other Western countries. It seems in certain parts of the country that people will reach for their gun before their common sense.

Isn't that incredibly speculative?   



I got my head checked--by a jumbo jet
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8841 posts, RR: 24
Reply 18, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5507 times:

Quoting Max Q (Reply 3):
Even if these injuries are substantiated it did not give Z the right to shoot and kill an UNARMED man.

I am pretty sure that Martin had arms.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 8):
That was begun under GWB.

That was another, similar operation - the difference was that in that operation, they actually kept track of the guns and made arrests.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 16):
Umm...isn't it a cop's job to look for trouble? I'm pretty sure they're paid to confront suspicious persons and chase criminals.

That's like saying that if it's not your job, don't do anything. If you see a bad car accident, don't help - firefighters and EMTs are paid for that - just wait for them.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11359 posts, RR: 52
Reply 19, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5493 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 2):
This, folks, is why there is something called a "trial."

      

Quoting ikramerica (Thread starter):
Zimmerman's medical records from the following morning show clear signs that he was assaulted for a period of time

Not true. I believe this is your conjecture. Because as Maverick points out:

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 10):
Quoting ikramerica (Thread starter):
great strength, including a broken nose, two black eyes, and cuts on the back of his head.

No offense, but it doesn't take "great strength" to cause any of those injuries. A toddler can give you a black eye if they smack you just right.

Furthermore, the fact that Zimmerman was injured does not prove in the slightest that Zimmerman was not the aggressor. Remember, Zimmerman was the guy wielding the gun. If someone points a gun at you, and you don't have one to point back, you're either going to run like bloody hell, or stand your ground (which you are allowed to do in Florida) and do your best to beat the guy senseless.

For the life of me, I cannot understand why people think an injury is proof that the guy was not the instigator.

Quoting ikramerica (Thread starter):
Coroner's report shows, other than the gunshot wound which ended the encounter, Martin had no defensive injuries nor injuries consistent with being assaulted. Only scraped knuckles, injuries consistent with striking someone.

Something HUGE you are forgetting to report about the Coroner's Report: Martin was not shot at close range. He was shot at intermediate range. What does that mean? That means that Martin was outside the range to throw a punch when Zimmerman shot him dead. You can gloss over that, but that is a huge piece of evidence, if true.

Quoting ikramerica (Thread starter):
Anyway, rant over. Hope everyone who contributed to the other thread denying all of Z's claims and buying all of the family's claims (despite not being on the scene) takes a minute to think about your own contribution in a rush to judgment.

Are you kidding me? The protests and the people on the now closed thread were clamoring for a trial! An unarmed kid is dead at the hands of a gun -- there should be a trial.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 8):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 1):
Fast and Furious.

That was begun under GWB.

Both of you: STOP. Your constantly making things political is what's going to get this thread killed.

Quoting Maverick623 (Reply 10):
Quoting Max Q (Reply 9):
neighborhood watch specifically prohibits guns.

Source?

Unfortunately, the Community Safety Institute and the National Sheriff's Association for some strange reason don't give this information out for free, but there is plenty of evidence that guns are a no-no on the Neighborhood Watch:

http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...-community-ties-neighborhood-watch
"Zimmerman carried a handgun. Police departments and sheriff's offices that train volunteers advise them never to carry weapons — though Zimmerman broke no laws by doing so because he has a concealed-weapons permit."

http://www.huliq.com/3257/national-n...ns-actions-trayvon-martin-shooting
"In addition, although Zimmerman broke no laws because he has a concealed weapons permit, it's something that Neighborhood Watch strongly discourages. "There's no reason to carry a gun," Tutko said. "You do not carry a weapon during neighborhood watch. If you carry a weapon, you're going to pull it.""

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=7259059
"Neighborhood watch is a valuable program, but deputies say weapons have no place in it.

Salt Lake County Sheriff's Office Crime Prevention Deputy Levi Hughes said, "We recommend you do not. As a matter of fact, we tell you, you should not carry firearms.""

http://www.sacsheriff.com/crime_prev...ocuments/neighborhood_watch_04.cfm
"Make sure your citizen patrol:
...
- Never carries weapons of any kind — e.g. guns, black jack, mace, baseball bat, or knives;"

http://www.eddystoneboro.com/comubb.htm
"Neighborhood Watch members are restricted to performing eyes and ear surveillance ONLY, reporting their observations immediately to the police. NO weapons and NO direct involvement with a crime situation are permitted. Neighborhood Watch members are NOT authorized to perform in a law enforcement capacity."



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User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 20, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5488 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 16):
Umm...isn't it a cop's job to look for trouble? I'm pretty sure they're paid to confront suspicious persons and chase criminals.

Depends on how you read the term "looking for trouble". The way it was used above, it goes beyond a literal reading - it implies Mr. Zimmerman was aching to get into trouble, i.e., even if he had to create trouble.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 16):
This is what bugs (scares) me. In the US there's this "better him than me" mentality, even if one's life isn't really threatened, that results in disproportionately high gun deaths compared to other Western countries. It seems in certain parts of the country that people will reach for their gun before their common sense.

US gun deaths are largely related to belligerent US drug policies.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1834 posts, RR: 10
Reply 21, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 5473 times:

Quoting jbirdav8r (Reply 17):
Isn't that incredibly speculative?

I was waiting for someone to turn that line on me  

But it's not speculative when there's data to support it.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 18):
That's like saying that if it's not your job, don't do anything. If you see a bad car accident, don't help - firefighters and EMTs are paid for that - just wait for them.

That's not what I'm saying at all. I was pointing out that PPVRA used a poor comparison for his point.

Quoting D L X (Reply 19):
If someone points a gun at you

I don't think it has been shown whether the gun came out before or after the first punch.

Quoting D L X (Reply 19):
Your constantly making things political is what's going to get this thread killed

  

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 20):
Depends on how you read the term "looking for trouble". The way it was used above, it goes beyond a literal reading - it implies Mr. Zimmerman was aching to get into trouble, i.e., even if he had to create trouble

I understand that. I just didn't think it was a great comparison for the point you were trying to make. There is a big legal difference between a neighbourhood "watchman" and a man with a badge.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 20):
US gun deaths are largely related to belligerent US drug policies

Sorry for going off-topic, but how are they more belligerent than in Canada?



Flying refined.
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11660 posts, RR: 15
Reply 22, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 5468 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 21):
I don't think it has been shown whether the gun came out before or after the first punch.

Only two people know when this happened. One of them can no longer give his side of the story because he is dead. Zimmerman will, without a doubt, come out of this a hero and be the poster boy for the NRA about how guns are just the greatest ever and Trayvon will be painted as a thug and will forever have his reputation and memory tarneshed. Simply becuase he was shot to death in the name of some insane law.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 23, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day ago) and read 5460 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 21):
There is a big legal difference between a neighbourhood "watchman" and a man with a badge.

But there is no moral difference. And the law should reflect this.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 21):
Sorry for going off-topic, but how are they more belligerent than in Canada?

I am not too familiar with Canada's War on Drugs, though Americans do often say Canada has more lax laws. Not sure to what extent this is true, though.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11359 posts, RR: 52
Reply 24, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 23 hours ago) and read 5456 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 21):
Quoting D L X (Reply 19):
If someone points a gun at you

I don't think it has been shown whether the gun came out before or after the first punch.

Completely agree. All I'm saying is that there is no evidence other than Zimmerman's own statement concerning who started the altercation. Zimmerman's injuries do not prove that he was the innocent victim of crime.



Send me a PM at http://www.airliners.net/aviation-forums/sendmessage.main?from_username=NULL
25 WestJet747 : But that's the thing about morals, just because one is acting with good or just intentions, it does not make it the right thing to do. We aren't as s
26 sbworcs : All I see from both sides of the arguments here are people speculating about what happened and reporting it as fact. The only person that is able to k
27 windy95 : Was there a point to these? Can you show me where Zimmerman was prohibited from carrying a weapon as a neighborhood watch person? It is not specualti
28 WestJet747 : "He lost Trayvon by that time." is most certainly speculation. How does the 911 tape tell you otherwise? What do you want proof for? I was commenting
29 Post contains links windy95 : Because Z tells the 911 dispatcher that he lost him. The the Dispatcher says he should not follow him and Z answers OK. Fair enough. Just thought it
30 D L X : Wait. You don't even think there should be a trial when the shooter alleges self-defense? I just want to make sure we're clear. Read Maverick's post.
31 flyingclrs727 : In my state, a case can't go to trial without a grand jury indictment. For some reason Florida allows some indlctments without going through a grand
32 windy95 : Did I say just when the shooter alleges self-defense? I was pretty clear. It happens all the time. I did provide the source above that shows the Sanf
33 Post contains links windy95 : Breaking: Autopsy Reveals Trayvon Martin Had Drugs in System http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Governm...Trayvon-Martin-Had-Drugs-in-System
34 Post contains images StarAC17 : Those are slightly different examples, but people trying to take the law into their own hands often create a bigger headache for law enforcement. Wit
35 Post contains images flanker : All of this evidence does support Mr. Z, seems like everything he has stated so far is true based on the evidence coming out for his defense trial. Th
36 DiamondFlyer : It is absolutely relevant. It shows that Martin is a criminal. Not the innocent little kid the media would have you believe he was, but clearly isn't
37 Post contains images StarAC17 : Angel or not he is dead and the evidence of pot use has been suggested before it alone isn't relative to his death (the stuff should be legal but tha
38 D L X : He had THC in his system. THC is detectable in your system for weeks... so this proves he had some pot some time in the past few weeks, like many a s
39 Maverick623 : Discouraging is quite different from prohibiting. Each watch program is free to prohibit them, but the State cannot, and I seriously doubt any LEA wo
40 Post contains images D L X : So, I'm not sure of your point, because it is quite clear that the Neighborhood Watch program does not want its members carrying weps. I don't think
41 flymia : Form what I have seen, and from what I know is neede for a jury to honestly come out with the verdict of guilty of murder no way does Zimmerman get co
42 Post contains links D L X : The state has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt only that Zimmerman killed Martin. Done. There is zero doubt, since Zimmerman admitted it. Now (unle
43 Post contains images WestJet747 : I know he said that, but if Z's attorney tries to use his own statement as a defense in court, the prosecution will likely laugh them out of the room
44 seb146 : Except when everyone kept saying "That picture is from 10 years ago! He was a thief! He was a tagger!" Oh, gee... a teen who smokes pot. Color me sho
45 Post contains links randyh3253 : As someone who lives here in Central Florida its been all over the news. I think your confused on what "intermediate range" means. I personally have
46 D L X : If that is true, then I stand corrected on this point. Thanks for the info.
47 DiamondFlyer : Yes, yes they are. I'm sorry, but why write laws if you are going to blindly ignore select laws? The whole legal system is a joke, enforce the laws o
48 D L X : You are completely missing the point when you consider marijuana usage a mitigating factor in a case about a violent crime. It's not about picking an
49 itsjustme : My prediction: Zimmerman will be found not guilty in criminal court but will have his ass handed to him in civil court when Martin's NOK file a wrongf
50 randyh3253 : Understandable if your not familiar with the terminology it can be very confusing when you hear the term "intermediate" when you think it should be "
51 D L X : Welcome back, itsjustme! I look forward to your valuable insights on this issue.
52 Post contains images windy95 : Nothing valuable here. Another person who is spouting his opinion without looking at any facts. Actually it is 1 to 18 inches. There is a huge cost t
53 Post contains links windy95 : Cops, Witnesses Back Up George Zimmerman's Version of Trayvon Martin Shooting T http://abcnews.go.com/US/cops-witnes...mmermans-version/story?id=16371
54 Dreadnought : I wonder if we will ever see certain people on this thread admit that in such a situation, the person on the bottom would be justified in fearing for
55 StarAC17 : I will do that when a judge or a jury decides on it, I'm satisfied that it has reached a courtroom. I am still really confused on how a kid who was 5
56 sbworcs : Were you there? No? They you cannot be so certain. I don't know whether ZImmerman shot in self defence or not but I will certainly not only look at t
57 Dreadnought : Zimmerman is described as 5'8 and 185 lbs (a bit overweight). Martin was taller, and it would seem much more fit. I have little doubt that a guy Mart
58 Maverick623 : Nope. Under Florida law, one cannot be held civilly liable when invoking "Stand Your Ground". You ever been sucker punched? By a football player?
59 Max Q : I believe that Z was looking for trouble and found it, but even if T attacked him (which seems very unlikely) fatally shooting him is inexcusable and
60 seb146 : Source?? No. Just because someone has THC in their system does not make them prone to violence. When it does happen, there is also other drugs and/or
61 StarAC17 : The last time anyone punched me I was 12 actually. I have about 80-90 lbs on Martin and am taller so people don't like to pick fights with me. I coul
62 ltbewr : As I have said about this case here and elsewhere: There should be a tight gag order on everyone connected to this case one can be put on including Zi
63 D L X : I think you have misinterpreted what I said. I agree. Stand Your Ground will get a very very serious second look. My guess is at least the immunity c
64 Dreadnought : Why? In spite of the media's bleating about "stand your ground", I don't see it as having anything to do with the case. I see it as a case of (most l
65 seb146 : Wearing a hoodie when it is cold and raining means "thug"? I have been a thug for a long LOOONG time! Because one man saw one person walking. I still
66 Flighty : To some extent, in our daily lives, we want to know what the law is. The law involves all of us. This case is pretty confusing because it has 2 guys
67 type-rated : No, but it could very well demonstrate impaired judgement, a contributing cause.
68 Maverick623 : Thank you. Why? Cops do it every single day. I'm 180 pounds and I routinely move around 300+lb objects. It's not all about weight. In a public trial,
69 windy95 : There are plenty of "unarmed" minors who could kill me or seriously damage me. The reason why certain people on this thread (for example) can't rally
70 Mir : Which means it's okay to shoot him? Whether he was on drugs or not has absolutely nothing to do with whether Zimmerman was justified in what he did.
71 windy95 : It is the job of the DA and the Police to determine if there is a trail. If they do not prosecute you because it is proven self defense then ther is
72 bhmbaglock : 911 operator(not sworn Officer) suggestions are not "Police instructions". If a sworn officer was on the scene and based on his/her judgement of the
73 PHX787 : Let me jump right in here, and let me tell you why sometimes living in this country makes me want to vomit. 1) the media OVERBLEW THIS ONE BIG TIME an
74 D L X : This is a common misbelief. In an affirmative defense, such as self-defense, it is the defendant that has to prove that he is entitled to the defense
75 WestJet747 : The terminology they use is pretty misleading. I had made the same assumption as DLX. Thanks for the clarification. Yup, several times, by guys bigge
76 Max Q : Really, show me a situation like this one where the presence of a gun improved the outcome ? You seem to be forgetting that an armed individual has n
77 seb146 : Some people here are envoking "Stand Your Ground" as Zimmerman's defense. What about this scenario: Zimmerman saw a man in a hoodie, persued him, and
78 D L X : Seb, there really is just no evident at all that there were two people. Yes, it is possible. But just as we rail on Zimmerman supporters for their wi
79 itsjustme : Admittedly, I am not an expert on FL criminal/civil law. However, I was under the impression Zimmerman is claiming self defense as his justification
80 Ken777 : We might as well have some major judgements in this trial as "open carry" is the current plaything of the conservative politicians. (Oklahoma has a fe
81 windy95 : How do you know he is a hot shot? Once again how do you know this? You know nothing of the man. You really must of known him well to know this. So yo
82 Max Q : Not what happened here and irrelevant anyway. Your obvious love of guns is a big part of this whole problem.
83 Dreadnought : What is relevant is what might have happened to Zimmerman if he did not have a gun. He might be dead or brain damaged from getting his head pounded i
84 Maverick623 : He has specifically invoked the Stand-Your-Ground law. Whether the judge will allow an acquittal based on that remains to be seen. Cute. Let's comple
85 windy95 : Yes you have me here. I love my constitutional right to have and love my guns. Also love my right to defend my family and myself with whatever force
86 Post contains links bhmbaglock : You are victim of the common misbelief. The Florida law(and others) was deliberately written so that once the defense is asserted, the burden of proo
87 Max Q : It was never intended to be a right that allowed every Tom, Dick and Harry to have as many guns as they desired. Gun ownership was intended to be a p
88 Maverick623 : A judge is generally allowed to specify to the jury which laws apply. Well, if you have a reliable source for that claim, I'd believe you. Please quo
89 windy95 : Source?
90 bhmbaglock : Correct, but it is the job of the jury to decide the facts. Any judge who tries to deliberately influence the jury to a particular conclusion is guil
91 Post contains links D L X : That's not what Florida courts have said. From Peterson v. State: http://scholar.google.com/scholar_ca...ur+ground+burden&hl=en&as_sdt=4,10 A
92 windy95 : In 2010, the Florida Supreme Court held that in criminal cases, a judge, not a jury, should determine whether the defendant's conduct was justified u
93 D L X : Right. You correctly stated that it is the defendant's burden to prove this. For anyone wondering what a preponderance of the evidence is, it is "51%
94 seb146 : Second Amendment of the United States Constitution.
95 CompensateMe : Was the intention of the Second Amendment for every Tom, Dick, Harry, Louise, Jamel, Tayshaun, Rodriguez and Ruben walking the streets of Compton, De
96 windy95 : Where in the second amendment does it say that it was never inteneded for every Tom, Dick and Harry to have as many guns as they desired. And what wa
97 Post contains links Maverick623 : Well then I guarantee you over 90% of judges that have sat on a jury trial are guilty of such an offense. Irrelevant. "Assault" weapons were not arou
98 Post contains links and images windy95 : Here are the assualt rifles of that time.
99 D L X : There are basically 3 levels of proof required in every court in the nation Low - Preponderance of the evidence (Person with burden needs to prove "m
100 CompensateMe : It is relevant, and you're sharing my viewpoint. Assault weapons did not exist when the Constitution was drafted, thus it is reasonable to assume it'
101 D L X : Can we get off of whether the Constitution's drafters imagined current day gun laws? I have my thoughts, but they really aren't appropriate for a thre
102 Flighty : Exactly. Or if it were to protect against federal encroachment... that's even better... our government until recently had 40 kt warheads that could b
103 Post contains links Dreadnought : How might that convince a jury to hand down a “guilty” verdict to Murder Two charges? How does that “stay in your car” principle work? Do you
104 Ken777 : Let's be honest, what happens to Zimmerman in court probably won't make a lot of difference to the guy. Where is he going to go? Who would hire him?
105 itsjustme : Agreed and I have suggested deletion of the irrelevant posts. That being said, the prosecution has it's work cut out for them. There is no way a murd
106 Post contains links D L X : New evidence supports Martin. http://articles.orlandosentinel.com/...tnesses-change-shooting-fdle-agent Lots of witnesses have changed their stories.
107 falstaff : That means nothing.... I work with teenagers everyday and there are some of them that are just trouble and will grow up to be more trouble. I have he
108 D L X : Both true, that's why I put ZERO weight on what Zimmerman and Martin's families say.
109 Maverick623 : That's not what the law says. Still carries no legal weight. So it is, or it isn't? Juries aren't allowed to make up their own rules. Heck, why don't
110 D L X : Not necessarily. It will be interesting to see how that particular bit plays out. The only witness currently saying that Martin attacked Zimmerman is
111 Maverick623 : And nobody is saying that Zimmerman attacked Martin either. So, really the only evidence is injuries. Martin had non-defensive knuckle scrapes and a
112 kpitrrat : From what I understand about this mess, not a case a mess, we have at least 3 witnesses who have changed their story. Right there I would say they are
113 D L X : That is not the case. It is the default that Zimmerman attacked Martin, because he admits that he killed him. I have to had mentioned it at least 5 t
114 Maverick623 : It may be the "default", but that doesn't overrule any other facts that come out. Under what standard of proof? You make it sound like there has to b
115 D L X : I never said it did. What I did say was that in the absence of additional evidence (Z started it, M started it) the default is that Z does not get se
116 Maverick623 : Not at all. It was very informative. I think where we got caught up was me using the common definition of "proof" being an absolute, as opposed to "p
117 Post contains links ATTart : Judge revokes Zimmerman's bond http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/01/justic...teen-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
118 PHX787 : So what does this mean? Are they not buying the medical evidence or what?
119 Maverick623 : He lied about how much money he had. He and his wife were claiming they were indigent (his wife under oath), but they wound up having over 100K in ca
120 TheCommodore : And lets no forget the small matter over a second passport that he had hidden away in a safety deposit box. He even talked about it with his wife, in
121 StarAC17 : Absolutely, also raises issue of his wife in terms of credibility also if the defense plans to use her as a character witness.
122 usflyer msp : Zimmerman is so dumb. When you call someone from jail there is a recording that plays about every five minutes that tells you that you are being recor
123 Post contains links Dreadnought : At the same time he twice had the opportunity to do exactly that, and has never indicated that he would 'do a bolter' if given the chance. George Zim
124 TheCommodore : Um, how many people indicate their intentions they are going to "do a bolter" He should have just been honest in the first place. Lying dose NOTHING
125 Post contains links ATTart : George Zimmerman's Wife Arrested: Shellie Zimmerman Charged With Perjury http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...%7Cdl1%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D169256
126 Post contains links CALTECH : Stick to the facts then. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-18563_16...-over/?tag=contentMain;contentBody "Details from Trayvon Martin's autopsy show the bu
127 Post contains links CALTECH : The facts say otherwise. http://www.theblaze.com/stories/repo...-martin-attacked-george-zimmerman/ "A new witness to the Trayvon Martin shooting has
128 D L X : It is now June 17. On May 25, I posted a report saying that the witness that had claimed that Martin attacked Zimmerman has now recanted his story. S
129 Post contains links kpitrrat : In the words of David Ferrie played by Joe Pesci in the movie JFK. "It's a mystery! It's a mystery wrapped in a riddle inside an enigma!" This case ha
130 StarAC17 : The DA overcharged here as their wasn't enough evidence to support Murder one beyond a reasonable doubt, she was acquitted on the lesser charges like
131 Post contains links TheCommodore : Further news on this saga. Miami Police Chief has been sacked ! Apparently, because he's lost the "confidence of the community". Another words, hes do
132 WrenchBender : Please note it was the Sanford Police Chief who was relieved of his duties not the Miami Police Chief. WrenchBender
133 TheCommodore : That's correct, sorry. My mistake.
134 zckls04 : Here we go again...... Seems from reading the above that everybody knows what went on that night, which should make the trial easy, right? Ask yoursel
135 Post contains links TheCommodore : And now a video of the episode posted by Zimmermans defense attorneys .... http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news...ticle.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10814
136 PHX787 : This has gone on too long -__- the whole case should be thrown out because of the biased media and protests. Pathetic excuse for due process.
137 Post contains images StarAC17 : Using that logic many cases in the US should have been thrown out due to media hype also a lot of the time also the jury goes against the "Court of P
138 Dreadnought : Let's remember that putting someone on trial is not without its cost. I haven't checked, but I know that Zimmerman was employed at an insurance compa
139 D L X : Charles, have you forgotten that a teenaged kid is dead? Your priorities are in the wrong place if you're putting this guy's job over somebody's life
140 Dreadnought : Oh, I'm sure you would not have a problem digging your way out of a debt several times what you earn per year (and you don't even have an asset at th
141 D L X : Charles, when you kill someone, IT IS NOT ABOUT YOU ANYMORE. I find it amazing that you are so worried about the comfort of the defendant in a homici
142 Dreadnought : Two wrongs don't make a right. Don't you get that? Yeah, someone died. But would you not agree that some people have it coming? Never mind this parti
143 D L X : It is not a wrong to try someone when they kill someone. That is what a trial is for. I'm not going to address your straw man argument. The victim wa
144 zckls04 : I see your point, but I think it's worth the money. Zimmerman may well end up the financial loser (unlikely, given the media attention), but unfortun
145 windy95 : It is if it was self defense.
146 JJJ : How else do you prove that if there is no trial?
147 D L X : No sir. It is not wrong. I'd be with you if the trial was just for harrassment. But clearly it is not. You and Charles must not just sweep the fact t
148 Dreadnought : Preponderance of evidence. Before a case comes to trial, a number of people have to be sufficiently convinced of the accused' probable (not just poss
149 windy95 : If the evidence show it then the Police and DA do not file charges. Also here in Florida the Judge usually makes the decision before it goes to trial
150 D L X : Zimmerman's life is a wreck? HE KILLED SOMEONE! Do you think he'd like to trade places with the person he put in the ground? Which of those two peopl
151 Flighty : I believe Zimmerman and Trayvon Martin both acted idiotically and made huge mistakes on that day. I believe Zimmerman was racist and wrong to harass
152 Post contains images Dreadnought : Not in a judicial sense, but if it is true that he was a drug dealing little punk, which all the evidence seems to point to, then I think the world i
153 Dreadnought : Oh yes, and by the way... Show of hands please - when you read the caption on the picture in post 152, how many of you thought it with a Mexican accen
154 PHX787 : me Sort-of a harsh way to put it, but yes, I agree, we need to get more tough on today's youth.
155 StarAC17 : Million dollar book deal coming after. Do you feel the same about OJ, he got off on his charges. I'm a judge deems to feel that this warrants a trial
156 Post contains images Maverick623 : Who had attacked him and severely beat him. Maybe it's because you don't believe in self-defense? Sorry, but it is you who is skipping steps. By your
157 D L X : A trial will determine that. Don't put the cart before the horse. Hogwash. Self-defense is proven at trial, with the benefit of cross-examination. Yo
158 PHX787 : Why would a trial determine what is already evidence? It's the media, the police failing to release the evidence, and the whole sensationalist feelin
159 windy95 : You are putting the cart before the horse. If the evidence shows that it was self defense according to the statutes then we have no trial. Do we have
160 D L X : NOTHING has been admitted as evidence yet. That is the purpose of the trial. A judge determines what evidence is admissible, the parties present thei
161 Post contains images Maverick623 : But then you say: So, clearly, the DA and the police have the power to not bring charges. A trial is not automatic when a potential crime has been co
162 JJJ : Shooting an unarmed man will get you on trial 99 times out of 100. In most other countries, self-defence would not have applied, either.
163 Post contains links StarAC17 : That I agree 100% (that its an overcharge) unless they have evidence that hasn't been released publicly. Zimmerman doesn't seem too bright to begin w
164 windy95 : Good thing we do not live in other countries. So in most countries it is okay to let someone bash your head in without a response? She is also well k
165 JJJ : Most countries have this proportional use of force thing. So it's self defence shooting someone who has a gun or who, say, has a knife and is about t
166 windy95 : Yes. They never should of appointed a special prosecutor. They did it to appease the mob. I am saying that a trial by jury in most cases will not hap
167 Post contains links and images D L X : No. The other witness has recanted. See Reply 106. No one is saying that Z cannot get a jury instruction on self-defense. The argument is whether Z c
168 JJJ : Of course not. Force can only be used as a means to stop a threat. If you hit him bad enough you kill the other guy you're toast as well.
169 Post contains links D L X : Let me correct something that I have said earlier. Apparently, Florida law is a mess. On the one hand, is the Peterson case, which says that the defen
170 StarAC17 : I forgot to respond to this in reply 163. Of course they have the power to not bring charges, this DA feels she has a case. Fair point, I think she o
171 D L X : Sure can. In this case, it appears that the prosecutors only charged Z with Murder in the Second Degree, however, they can (under most conditions) am
172 Post contains links starbuk7 : Here is the link for the 14 year old in Phoenix. http://www.digtriad.com/news/local/a...er-Shot-By-Teen-Home-With-Siblings
173 Post contains links windy95 : CristianGernandez was charged with first-degree murder in adult court. As a result of this charge, Cristian faces life in prison. He had hit his two
174 D L X : Actually, it would be as a result of his TRIAL, not the charge, that he would face life in prison. Like as in all cases, a judge and jury will determ
175 windy95 : Is there a point to this post? Other than to to nitpick? As a result of any charge a person faces the possibility of time of prison. Yes they need a
176 D L X : Yes. You and others are trying to place the ultimate blame on Angela Corey if someone gets a sentence. But this leaves out the fact that a judge and
177 Post contains links D L X : The police department report: http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/Se...erman_martin_evidence_20120626.pdf More police evidence against Zimmerman.
178 casinterest : It is just more discussions. My takeaway is still this. Had Zimmerman not gotten out of the car , this wouldn't have happened. From all the indciatio
179 Post contains images Maverick623 : Following someone in a car or on foot are the same thing: you are following someone. You cannot say that it's ok to watch someone from a car, but it'
180 Post contains links D L X : You keep saying that OVER AND OVER but you have no evidence to support that other than Zimmerman saying it. Why do you keep repeating this when you k
181 Post contains links and images Dreadnought : Number 3 is not easy. You are simply ASSuming that anyone who pulls a gun does so out of "ill will, hatred, spite, or an evil intent". Here are the r
182 casinterest : you may call it something else, but I call it stalking. He followed him and stalked him. Had someone stalked you , would you not turn around? It's ca
183 StarAC17 : Also with the damage that his credibility has taken from the whole bail issue and the DA will bring that up in examination. Lie detector tests can gi
184 Post contains links D L X : You misread what I wrote. No it doesn't. http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2011/782.07 You really should stop making stuff up.[Edited 2012-06-28
185 Post contains links Dreadnought : This lawyer sums it up better than I can. http://www.talkleft.com/story/2012/6/24/122557/873 Once George Zimmerman introduces some evidence of self-d
186 D L X : We've already discussed your talkleft.com cite and why it does not support your argument. Admit it: you were 100% wrong when you said that "the State
187 Dreadnought : You cite precedent which is older than the precedent cited in talkleft.com. The later decisions should trump. Sidenote: this is why I hate our Englis
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