m11stephen From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 1247 posts, RR: 1
Reply 1, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 7301 times:
We obviously don't know all the details in this case but more than likely the pilot simply forgot that he had this gun in his bag. I see no other reason why an airline pilot of all people would fly seven flights and attempt to clear a TSA checkpoint with a gun in their bag.
My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
I'm sure you're right. Crew doesn't have to go through TSA at CHO when operating the flight.
I flew with this captain many times. He's a good guy, good stick, and I always enjoyed being paired up with him. Sucks to see him going through something like this. Especially in a very gun un-friendly state like NY and with a company like PDT.
Everyone makes mistakes... I hope that Piedmont can forgive his actions and allow him to keep his job. He was probably licensed to carry a concealed weapon and simply forgot to take it out of his bag. He would not be the first crewmember to do that.
My opinions, statements, etc. are my own and do not have any association with those of any employer.
DashTrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1544 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 7092 times:
Quoting m11stephen (Reply 3): . I hope that Piedmont can forgive his actions and allow him to keep his job.
I doubt it. Labor / management relations are a war zone there right now. I don't think this guy had a target on his back from mgmt so I'm hoping they help defend him, but I don't see any way they can't terminate him. Piedmont is also very good at hanging those who screw up royally out to dry. That being said there is a new ACP who is a very good pilot ally.
I just hope it turns out for the best. He definitely doesn't deserve this mess.
Quoting m11stephen (Reply 3): He was probably licensed to carry a concealed weapon and simply forgot to take it out of his bag. He would not be the first crewmember to do that.
Entirely possible. I'm a gun guy as well. Golden rule to pilots who shoot.... NEVER make your flight bag your shooting bag. I did for a while and sweated like hell when going through security. I knew I didn't have a firearm in there, but I was always worried about a loose round.
At any rate, I think the other guys who have done this got slapped on the wrist. Problem here is NYS will go after him no doubt when the Feds are done.
DarkSnowyNight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1380 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 6881 times:
Quoting DashTrash (Reply 4): Piedmont is also very good at hanging those who screw up royally out to dry. That being said there is a new ACP who is a very good pilot ally.
I'll buy that. I remember when a QA friend of mine got canned after a mechanic improperly re-attached a Horse Collar after a B-check. The result was that it departed the aircraft in flight. Yes, he should have pulled on it like the work card says (but nobody ever does this any more than we rolled wheels on weeklies), but the guy had eight years of good time. No second chances on some things, I guess.
It's funny because when I tell that story where I'm at now, I get a lot of "are you serious?" type responses. Could be it's a PDT thing, or an airline thing in general. Anyway, pilot with a gun through security, yeah, they'll probably deliver kittens over it.
Sad to lose his job, more so for how easy it is to need a lawyer these days.
Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
From the British perspective (and I suspect the European perspective generally) that really is an extraordinary statement. While I'm sure the pilot in question didn't intend any harm, from this side of the Atlantic the question has to be asked what on earth the gun was doing in his bag in the first place. Strange as it may seem, most people around here don't carry guns at all, let alone "forget" where they've put them.
The gun culture in the US is totally mistifying to me and a vast majority of the population over this side of the Atlantic. Surely if you was in a highly responsible job such as a pilot, and with the world the way it is at them moment with terrorism and the such, you wouldn't even think about owning a gun, let alone having one in your house near your flight gear?
It does seem a genuine mistake, but it's a mistake that should cost him his job. Irresponsibility at its highest.
Quoting danielmyatt (Reply 11): The gun culture in the US is totally mistifying to me and a vast majority of the population over this side of the Atlantic. Surely if you was in a highly responsible job such as a pilot, and with the world the way it is at them moment with terrorism and the such, you wouldn't even think about owning a gun, let alone having one in your house near your flight gear?
There is a very different culture on this side of the world. Our Constitution guarantees us the right to bear arms. In past times firearms were just one more tool we used to do what needed to be done. Pest control of the four legged kind and putting meat on the table. From this, as society has migrated to the cities, shooting has become sport. Targets have become paper rather than animal, shotguns are fired at clays rather than birds. Quite a few of us still live a "countryfied" lifestyle and shoot for both food and sport. I own numerous rifles, shotguns and pistols. About once per month we take a trip to our local shooting range and spend an afternoon (friends / family). We go through a few rounds, grill hotdogs on a portable grill, drink a soft drink, shoot a little more, pack up and go home. During deer season, you'll find me employing my firearms putting meat in the freezer.
I also have a permit that allows me to carry a pistol concealed within state law. I do this because the world isn't a friendly place. No one is "out to get me", and I don't frequent bad areas. However, part of my job as the man of the house is to protect my family. Bad guys have guns over here. Plain and simple. The best defense against that is situation awareness, but even exercising this you can find yourself the victim (nearly carjacked one night in a good neighborhood while pumping gas, 2 yr old son strapped into his carseat)
Like I said before, I've flown with this captain many times. I'm betting his use of firearms is similar to mine. He possibly broke one of the pilot / gun owner rules: Never use your overnight bag as your shooting bag....
MillwallSean From Singapore, joined Apr 2008, 1271 posts, RR: 6
Reply 12, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 6311 times:
Any person carrying a gun onto an airplane is an idiot. No matter mistake or what he needs to loose his license asap.
Just bizarre that we can even be having a discussion about him being a nice lad etc. I dont doubt he is but its loaded gun on an airplane...
Dont let the door hit you on the way out as we say.
zbbylw From Canada, joined Nov 2006, 1987 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6196 times:
I understand that the US has the things for guns and a few people are defending him on his errors. I am sure as Dash Trash is mentioning he is a great pilot. With that being said I too find it shocking that people are OK with the fact he had a loaded gun with him in the flight deck. There are errors and then their are situations in which cross a line. I am glad to hear that the people of NY are a bit more sensible and corrected this matter!
cbphoto From United States of America, joined Dec 2003, 1567 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 6118 times:
Quoting zbbylw (Reply 15): I understand that the US has the things for guns and a few people are defending him on his errors. I am sure as Dash Trash is mentioning he is a great pilot. With that being said I too find it shocking that people are OK with the fact he had a loaded gun with him in the flight deck.
WHAT? You do realize on any given day their are hundreds of flights that criss-cross the US with loaded guns in the flight deck? It's called the FFDO program, read up on it one day!
All the foreigners who want to hang this individual have to realize that guns do not kill people, it's people who kill people. He obviously had no intentions of hurting someone with it, as he would have done it on the first flight.
Unfortunately, I have a lot of connections in Piedmont and I know roughly the current situation out their and sadly I have a feeling his career at Piedmont is probably over. Hopefully he'll be able to recover and find a new job, at a better company!
DashTrash From United States of America, joined Aug 2006, 1544 posts, RR: 2
Reply 17, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5913 times:
Quoting scbriml (Reply 17): How often do you forget where your loaded gun is?
Doesn't matter. I'm not him. This guy isn't the first who showed up to the airport with a gun in his bag he didn't realize was there. Stuff happens. You use the bag to go shoot. You get home tired from a day at the range, unload and forget one important item. Go to work the next day, get arrested. There has also been at least one pilot in the middle of a divorce who's wife put a gun in his bag.
Quoting scbriml (Reply 17):
Even if he has a criminal conviction on his record?
It's also illegal not to own a boat in Hawaii, doesn't mean this it's not an outdated and archaic law, and must be obeyed at all times.
Just because it's a "right" it doesn't mean it is right.
NBGSkyGod From United States of America, joined May 2004, 826 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5759 times:
Quoting DashTrash (Reply 14): He didn't violate any FARs. I doubt he'll loose his license.
He will not loose his license, but it will be very difficult for him to renew his medical with a felony conviction. and without the medical, his license is nothing more than a fancy bookmark or drink coaster.
"I use multi-billion dollar military satellite systems to find tupperware in the woods."
airportugal310 From Tokelau, joined Apr 2004, 3665 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 5716 times:
I believe you; I agree with you.
There are apparently individuals here who are not capable of making mistakes, or can't grasp the fact that the US isn't Europe. Thankfully.
None of them have ever run a red light, not seen a pedestrian in a crosswalk, left something in their bags that was prohibited at a security checkpoint, or accidentally burped at a dinner table. Angels...all of you
usdcaguy From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 980 posts, RR: 2
Reply 22, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 5632 times:
Quoting DashTrash (Reply 12): I also have a permit that allows me to carry a pistol concealed within state law. I do this because the world isn't a friendly place. No one is "out to get me", and I don't frequent bad areas. However, part of my job as the man of the house is to protect my family. Bad guys have guns over here. Plain and simple.
The best protection that you could possibly have for your family is to ensure plentiful redistribution of income (via cash and government services) within the American economy. The main reasons why people steal are that they have found themselves in desperate situations where there is nobody around to help them, or they do not think there will ever be an opportunity to improve their lives, so they have nothing to lose. If we had a government that took care of its people instead of fostering a violent, individualistic society, we would not feel so vulnerable. Being scared and buying a gun to have around your children is a terrible mistake and a misinterpretation of the original intent of the constitution. The right to bear arms was so the populace could work as a militia and defend itself against outside invaders (e.g. the English). Any outside invader who could stand up to our military (not impossible, but challenging) is likely to hit us economically first, then destroy our infrastructure with aircraft and then drop bombs on our cities. I don't think a little gun is going to do much good in that fight.
As a former employee of Piedmont, I am OUTRAGED that a pilot would carry a loaded gun around, for whatever reason, even for the purpose of ostensibly defending himself against a terrorist. We need to start teaching little boys at an early age that it's an act of idiocy to carry a gun around and that the best protection one could have is to look out for others as one looks out for oneself.
Quoting DashTrash (Reply 12): In past times firearms were just one more tool we used to do what needed to be done. Pest control of the four legged kind and putting meat on the table.
It does, and even an anti-gun person such as myself things those are legitimate gun uses and that people who live in really rural areas in the U.S. actually need firearms in some cases. I also think people should be allowed to go target shooting without having to defend themselves morally about it. I don't personally like guns, but target shooting is fun and responsible gun ownership in this capacity hurts nobody. But I think with our society awash in guns now, that constitutional guarantee and the steadfast refusal of some people to think critically about the volume of guns has had serious unintended consequences.
I think you are probably right that this pilot simply forgot which bag he was using or that the gun was in there. I don't think that's an unreasonable assumption.
The problem I have, and I think that most people are voicing here, is that gun ownership and use is just far too casual. Casual enough that you can forget you've got a loaded gun in your bag when you go to the airport. This guy's a pilot, people trust him with their lives every day. That conveys a certain responsibility to make sure all your ducks are in a row at all times - particularly with regard to conduct on the flight deck and what you might bring onto the plane.
Any gun owner needs to be extremely careful and responsible with how they carry their firearms and most gun owners are. But in this case, it's even more imperative. Ceasar's wife must be beyond reproach, as they say.
If the gun had been unloaded, I'd feel like DashTrash. We can be a bit gun-nuttish in the US, but at the same time a lot of the "OMGZ a GUN?!" hysteria from abroad is over the top.
But haphazardly at the bottom of a bag carrying a bunch of other stuff is not the place to carry a loaded gun. That's true even if you're just driving from the range back to your house. You should unload the gun or carry it properly in a holster or case. Very poor gun safety by someone who really ought to be focused on safety.
: Yes, I 've tried going through security with a bottle of water in my bag. I've also belched at the dinner table in polite company. Both of which are
: Robert Piche, the hero of Air Transat 236 (the Azores glider) had a prior conviction for drug smuggling... so apparently yes: http://wikimediafoundat
: Preciously why I would trust him, more then I would trust some other nut with a gun! Again, people are forgetting the fact that their was no intent h
: I am aware of this. With that being said I don't believe the guns are allowed to be loaded. That A320 that had a bullet hole shot through the cockpit
: Wrong...I have flown in the flight deck with countless FFDOs and they are all loaded! What is the point of having them up their if they are not allow
: Anyone that is authorized to fly armed should check, double check and recheck any flight bag. You travel with the same bag you take to the range?! Th
: I agree with you, partly. I always had my stuff ready to go the night before. If you're packing the day you're leaving and too tired to pack properly
: I don't think people are, and it shouldn't make any difference whether there was intent or not, he still took a loaded gun on board a plane without a
: No. But to unwittingly carry a loaded weapon is called "carelessness." Carelessness is not a quality I want in the pilot flying my plane. One does no
: Yup, when you run a red light, you stand a significant chance of hurting someone. When you leave a loaded handgun in your bag, you have a loaded hand
: Tell me please, what good is an UNloaded gun? Uh, please wait Mr. Cockpit Intruder, gotta put the bullets in my gun!! Might as well be carrying a bri
: Forgive him. His government took away or severely restricted his gun rights a long time ago. Back on topic... This pilot made a mistake. A big mistak
: This is stupid. Pilots should be allowed to carry handguns onboard. If you can't trust them wth handguns, how can you trust them in the cockpit of an
: For all of you saying he should simply be forgiven, have you considered what would have happened if somehow the gun had been discharged mid-flight, ca
: This guy isn't even an FFDO? He's toast. He works for a terrible airline that will gladly unload his salary to help their bottom line. Agreed 100%. NY
: Precisely. The circumstances around this incident are just facts. The point is, as a pilot he is expected to display a level of responsibility at all
: I find the other side of he Atlantic cradle to grave government provides all mentality a bit mystifying. But that is how ya all want to live so that
: It's not mystifying really, we have a good welfare system; If you are ill, you get free healthcare, if you don't have a job, you get support, if you
: Sorry but I can't help myself here. Does it never, ever occur to you that the main reason why you have so much gun crime in the US is because you hav
: You make this sound as if it's beyond reproach as a legal interpretation now. Sadly it probably is, but it wasn't necessarily always this way, even f
: A320ajm, I have discussed this with many of Americans over the years. They are scared of the "S" word being socialism. Some are very open to socialis
: As did the surgeon who amputated the wrong leg. As did the pilots on AF 447 (and EA 401 and a few others). So did the guy who looked down the barrel
: No. At least not me. I think the welfare mentality we have in the US now is sickening and needs to end. And the reason we have the best healthcare sy
: Guns don't discharge themselves. That's great! Who pays for it though? It's not free. Nope. To me a gun is a tool that I use to do some sort of a job
: You know something that no one gets, neither the Government, the TSA or the general public? Pilots don't need liquids, or guns, or any other weapons t
: Not as such, no. But... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Accidental_discharge It is not inconceivable that movement of contents within the pilot's bag co
: So, worst case, you or someone else, rummages around in your bag cuts their hand. A very different worst-case scenario is possible with a loaded gun
: I'm fully aware of what an accidental discharge is. The majority of us who take our sport seriously do not recognize them as legitimate. We refer to
: You're absolutely right. NYC has nothing to do with this. I was speaking of New York as in the state in which Buffalo in located in. It is likely, bu
: It is very unfortunate that this pilots career has been put into extreme jeopardy over a simple mistake. For those who think he shouldn't have the rig
: As an American, I wholeheartedly concur with the European view of the gun culture in the USA. ScottishDavis is correct; the gun crime statistics in A
: I'm sorry but I'm going to need a bit of explanation on this one. Are you saying that armed civilian resistance against established government securi