stasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3266 posts, RR: 6 Posted (12 months 20 hours ago) and read 4223 times:
Mitsubishi has announced that it is discontinuing the Galant sedan, the Endeavor CUV, and the Eclipse sports coupe in the USA marketplace due to very poor sales. The Galant (which was assembled in a US plant) has mainly been sold to rental car fleets for the past several model years. This leaves Mitsubishi with only a couple of models (the Lancer is the only sedan left, the Outlander is the only SUV/CUV) to sell in North America.
Suzuki is another manufacturer that has never performed well in the USA. As a former Suzuki owner myself (and my sister owed a Sidekick), I can personally attest to the fact that Suzuki has a very poor dealer network in the US, and getting parts when repairs are needed are very costly and takes alot of time to secure.
Mazda is trying to broaden its appeal with a new Mazda6 sedan this year, but Miata sports car is a very old platform now (and completely overshadowed by the new Scion FRS and Subie BRZ). The current Mazda3 model line-up is keeping Mazda afloat in the US market. Of course, the RX-8 is now defunct, with no replacement currently on the horizon.
Lotus is another dying (actuallly dead) brand in the US, although it was never the competitor to Porsche that was invisioned by Lotus' parent company. Jaguar continues to struggle in the US market, and Fiat had come nowhere near its sales expectations with its new 500 coupe.
Lincoln is also on life-support, and was nearly murdered by Ford when they discontinued the entire Mercury brand.
I think Mitsubishi will be the first manufacturer to depart the market, closely followed by Suzuki. Their dealer networks is spotty at best, even here in the large Phoenix market. Whats your thoughts or additions to the list, fellow motorheads?
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
poLot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 1497 posts, RR: 0 Reply 3, posted (12 months 18 hours ago) and read 4148 times:
Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 2): What about Suburu? I don't see much of their cars anymore in terms of new ones.
They are actually doing very good. They were one of the few automakers a few years ago that was increasing its sales as other brands were falling, and they are still gaining.
ltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 12333 posts, RR: 12 Reply 4, posted (12 months 17 hours ago) and read 4131 times:
One brand that is dead, and not just in the NA market, is Saab.
A major problem for many smaller manufacturers is the need to meet our pollution and safety standards with high costs and uncompetitive pricing if don't sell enough units to pay for the overhead costs to meet them.
Mitsubishi is pretty much gone anyway in the USA with Fiat now owning much of Chrysler after 40 years of partnership between Mitsubishi and Chrysler. Mitsubishi's sales are dropping like a rock in Japan and elsewhere too. An expensive manufacturing base in Japan, I think they shut down their Australian plant (until 1980 a Chrysler plant) in recent years, the growth of Hyundai-KIA and more recently, China's fast growing new carmakes is going to chase them out of the car business in many markets.
Mazda is also seeing dropping sales worldwide and at a worse rate than Mitsubishi. Ford ditched most of their ownership of them a few years ago. They make most of their cars in Japan so hurt by the poor exchange rates. They may choose not to continue making the 6 model with it's next revision in the USA (built in joint plant in Michigan now mainly used for the Mustang). Their rotary engine speciality is pretty much gone due to the poor fuel mileage they have and there is a limit on how many 2 seater sports cars you can sell.
Suzuki, like Mitsubishi, is pretty much a goner in the USA market and elsewhere as to cars, they too are being bashed by Hyundai/Kia here, have a weak dealer network and really have a limited range of models.
Someone mentioned Subaru. Some models are made in the USA, but most of their models and many components are made in expensive Japan. In the USA, most of it's market is in the snowier sections of the USA, so while they are weak in the southern half, they probably have enough of a base to hold in the NA market for the foreseeable future.
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16819 posts, RR: 57 Reply 5, posted (12 months 16 hours ago) and read 4114 times:
Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter): Lincoln is also on life-support, and was nearly murdered by Ford when they discontinued the entire Mercury brand.
Was a time back in the early 1990's when the name "Lincoln" competed very well with "Cadillac." A number of families in my (pretty upscale) neighborhood drove shiny Lincolns. Today, Lincoln seems to have been relegated to livery car fleets and a battleship of an SUV.
The US is a tough auto market. You need a massive dealer network that can handle with both state and federal regulations. There are vast geographic differences, with our country encompassing just about every geological and meteorological environment that exists on our planet, from arctic blizzards to roasting salt deserts to volcanic tropical islands. The distances involved are enormous. There are as many as six time zones from Honolulu to New York. It's difficult to establish oneself in the market. Bottom line, there is only room for a few giants.
stasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3266 posts, RR: 6 Reply 6, posted (12 months 14 hours ago) and read 4061 times:
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 4): They may choose not to continue making the 6 model with it's next revision in the USA (built in joint plant in Michigan now mainly used for the Mustang).
Mazda has sold out its share in the Flat Rock joint manufacturing (AutoAlliance) plant to Ford, which Mazda had operated since 1982. Ford builds the Mustang and the Fusion at this plant now, taking up the slack from the Mazda6 sedan that used to be assembled there.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
1337Delta764 From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 5759 posts, RR: 2 Reply 7, posted (11 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3870 times:
Mitsubishi is still strong in Puerto Rico, where the Lancer is one of the best-selling sedans on the island (alongside the Toyota Yaris and Toyota Corolla). However, they are very weak in the mainland US.
[Edited 2012-05-27 15:36:51]
The Pink Delta 767-400ER - The most beautiful aircraft in the sky
GSPflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 351 posts, RR: 0 Reply 8, posted (11 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3849 times:
Quoting poLot (Reply 3): They are actually doing very good. They were one of the few automakers a few years ago that was increasing its sales as other brands were falling, and they are still gaining.
Subaru isn't selling in large numbers like other brands in the U.S., but I heard that they probably have the best customer loyalty of any brand. I heard that a huge percentage of Subaru drivers that will end up buying another Subaru. They also look to sell in higher volumes in different geographic regions....I live in the Southeast, and don't see too many here, but I was in Western Massachusetts a few weeks ago, and they seem to have a large chunk of the market there.
I would say Suzuki and Mitsubishi are endangered brands in the North American market. If those two go away, I think the outlook for Mazda would improve, and they would be safe.
I also think that as a result of Hyundai and Kia improving their product, Nissan seems to be having problems, at least in this area. They seem to be marketing their newer models (Juke, Cube) to younger people, which happens to be a demographic that can't afford to spend too much on a car.
Dreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 7774 posts, RR: 22 Reply 9, posted (11 months 4 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3841 times:
Quoting GSPflyer (Reply 8): Subaru isn't selling in large numbers like other brands in the U.S., but I heard that they probably have the best customer loyalty of any brand.
My family bought its first Subaru about 11 years ago, and we are now on our fourth one. That's how much we think of it. The Outback is probably about the most versatile, well-built family car that's ever been made - an excellent balance between size and efficiency, excellent engineering and reliability, and as an added bonus it will go just about anywhere.
Oh, did I mention we like them?
Mazda also makes great cars - I've never even heard of one breaking down, but they've always been a little outside the mainstream in the US - can't figure out why.
Suzuki and Mitsubishi suffer from an image of poor quality (not just quality of construction but poor design as well). It might not be fair, deriving from mistakes made 10-15 years ago, but they have never recovered. I still hear people talk about Suzuki as "those cars tip over".
TheRedBaron From Mexico, joined Mar 2005, 1699 posts, RR: 4 Reply 10, posted (11 months 4 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 3802 times:
My closest friend had a Suzuki, rolled over at 30 km/h ...my wife Spamking new Mazda 5 has been 2 months on the shop due to a faulty steering wheel module that fails. (for the 2 time.) POS.
My VW sportwagen on the other hand is AWESOME, perfect car.
KiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 5286 posts, RR: 3 Reply 11, posted (11 months 4 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3716 times:
Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter): but Miata sports car is a very old platform now (and completely overshadowed by the new Scion FRS and Subie BRZ).
No it's not, the current platform for the MX5 was released in 2006, it was not a carryover from the previous generation. There will be a new MX5 in 2014. FYI the next MX-5 will be built in co-operation with Fiat who will use the same platform for the next Alfa Romeo Spider.
[img]Jaguar Land Rover Naples Reports U.S. Sales for February 2012
Jaguar Land Rover North America sales for the month were 4,277 up 32 percent from 3,247 units in 2011. Land Rover sales for the month were 3,255 up 27 percent from 2,555 in 2011; Jaguar sales for the month were 1,022 up 48 percent from 692 in 2011.[/img]
There will be the new E-type and the Evoque is selling like hotcakes, all in all things are looking better and better for JLR.
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 9): The Outback is probably about the most versatile, well-built family car that's ever been made
It's a close second to the Volvo V70/XC70, without a doubt the Volvo is the best package out there for a family, the problem for Subaru in Europe is their diesel engine, it's not a good as it should be.
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 4): Suzuki, like Mitsubishi, is pretty much a goner in the USA market and elsewhere as to cars, they too are being bashed by Hyundai/Kia here, have a weak dealer network and really have a limited range of models.
Suzuki is the market leader in many 3rd world markets, they are the best selling brand in India, the Swift is also one of the best selling superminis in the world, just because they aren't doing well in the US doesn't mean they aren't doing well everywhere else.
EddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7175 posts, RR: 45 Reply 12, posted (11 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3626 times:
Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter): Mazda is trying to broaden its appeal with a new Mazda6 sedan this year, but Miata sports car is a very old platform now (and completely overshadowed by the new Scion FRS and Subie BRZ). The current Mazda3 model line-up is keeping Mazda afloat in the US market. Of course, the RX-8 is now defunct, with no replacement currently on the horizon.
Yes, a new 6 is coming and it should be a very good car. How are the CX-7 and CX-9 doing in the U.S.? The CX-7 is wildly popular in Mexico (as a side note). The subcompact Mazda2 is a good car and it should appeal to college students and budget-conscious buyers. There is a new CX-5 coming shortly that will give Mazda a good contender in the small-SUV/crossover market. Apparently it will be a very good vehicle. Mazda will build an assembly plant in Mexico to feed cars to the U.S., Canada and South America and this is favorable because their manufacturing cost will go down. Finally, the MX-5 or Miata will see soon a new replacement. Alfa Romeo and Mazda will pool their resources to build a new generation Mazda Miata and Alfa Romeo Spider in a Mazda plant in Japan. Each vehicle will have distinct styling but both will share a new rwd chassis and the trademark handling characteristics that have made the Miata famous all these years. I am expecting this car to be great.
Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter): Lincoln is also on life-support, and was nearly murdered by Ford when they discontinued the entire Mercury brand.
I suppose the demise of Mercury was terrible for floor traffic, but Ford's unwillingness (or lack of funds or the absence of market demand) to turn Mercury into a credible brand with distinct products meant that Mercury had to be dropped no matter what. Maybe what Ford needs is Ford-Lincoln dealers but, more than that, good Lincoln products that are not just spiffed Ford products with slightly different sheetmetal.
Subaru has carved a niche of its own, sells well in bad weather states in the U.S. and has the backing of its minority shareholder Toyota. I personally think they screwed the design of the current generation Legacy, but I think their prospects are not dire.
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 11): Suzuki is the market leader in many 3rd world markets, they are the best selling brand in India, the Swift is also one of the best selling superminis in the world, just because they aren't doing well in the US doesn't mean they aren't doing well everywhere else.
Agree. The Swift is good looking and the people who own it seem to like it a lot. What about the Kizashi, btw? Is it a competent car and is it priced right?
MAH4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31117 posts, RR: 74 Reply 13, posted (11 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3556 times:
Fiat isn't struggling. It should never have said it expected to sell 50,000 cars so quickly. That was very unrealistic, and it didn't help that the dealer network grew at a much slower rate than planned and the launch was delayed (why don't pundits use these facts?). Fiat's first year was better than Mini's first year, and look where Mini is now.
Suzuki has a shaky future in the United States, but Mitsubishi, which is using the U.S. as a key manufacturing point for global export, isn't going anywhere.
Anybody mentioning Subaru really needs to check sales figures. Subaru is on fire, on track to exceed 300,000 units in the U.S. this year. Subaru really benefits with a virtual monopoly in the wagon segment in this country.
stasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3266 posts, RR: 6 Reply 14, posted (11 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 3516 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 13): Suzuki has a shaky future in the United States, but Mitsubishi, which is using the U.S. as a key manufacturing point for global export, isn't going anywhere.
The Illinois plant where Mitsubishi built the Galant (and builds only the Outlander Sport CUV now) is open only due to the $30 million USD in Illinois state grants to the automaker - or about $23,000 per UAW employee at the plant. The problem is that the plant can build 500,000 cars a year, and is now building less than 10 percent of that amount. However, Mitsubishi had received $250 million in subsidies from state and local governments in the past to keep the plant running.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
KiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 5286 posts, RR: 3 Reply 15, posted (11 months 4 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3452 times:
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 13): Subaru really benefits with a virtual monopoly in the wagon segment in this country.
Which for the life of my I can't understand why Volvo didn't try harder with the V70, they pulled it and said the XC70 is it, IMO the XC70 isn't worth the extra dosh over the V70, it doesn't drive as well, uses more gas. Volvo pretty much owned the imported wagon market in the US for a long time.
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13336 posts, RR: 64 Reply 16, posted (11 months 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3433 times:
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 9): I still hear people talk about Suzuki as "those cars tip over".
Which is BS. I´ve been driving first a SJ410 and later a SJ413 for years. They are maybe the closest you´ll find today as a successor of the old Willies Jeep.
First, as true offroad cars, they have a high ground clearance. Since they are also built with a narrow track, so that they can follow narrow forest trails (this is why even older models are still very popular with hunters, farmers and foresters around here) it is possible to tip them over if you exceed their limitations.
They are not racing cars, but need to be driven like small trucks, this means you can´t drive through curves at a high speed. If you drive them as what they have been built for, they are very safe.
As for the test, which caused Suzuki such a bad name in the US, it was faked by the automobile magazine to create a headline for sales purposes. It was later the subject of a major lawsuit, when it was discovered that the reporters deliberately drove the car over a ramp (which was later retouched out of the picture) to make one side come up and flip the car over, after the test driver could not make it tip by agressive driving. Any car will flip over if you drive it over a ramp on one side.
poLot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 1497 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (11 months 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3386 times:
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 16): As for the test, which caused Suzuki such a bad name in the US, it was faked by the automobile magazine to create a headline for sales purposes. It was later the subject of a major lawsuit, when it was discovered that the reporters deliberately drove the car over a ramp (which was later retouched out of the picture) to make one side come up and flip the car over, after the test driver could not make it tip by agressive driving. Any car will flip over if you drive it over a ramp on one side.
While Consumer Reports purposely made it tip over by driving very aggressively and doing I think close to 50 runs with it in order to get it to tip over, they never used a ramp nor were they accused of doing so.
tommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6172 posts, RR: 9 Reply 18, posted (11 months 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3364 times:
Times have definitely changed. I remember when Mitsubishi's and Mazda's were really popular in the US. Now it seems like the most popular brands are Ford, Chevy, Toyota, and Honda. And remember back 10 years ago nobody was buying Chevy's and Ford's except for their SUVs. Now its finally OK again to buy their cars because they are finally reliable again: like the Cruze, Malibu, Equinox, etc.
I wouldn't say Mazda is on the same level as Mitsz or Saab yet. Mazda still makes very good cars. Saab is dead in the water now that GM doesn't own them anymore. However their new ownership might be good for them overall.
Chrysler is sort of dying as well. Not nearly as good as Ford or GM products.
"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
KiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 5286 posts, RR: 3 Reply 19, posted (11 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3326 times:
Quoting tommy767 (Reply 18): Saab is dead in the water now that GM doesn't own them anymore. However their new ownership might be good for them overall.
What new ownership Saab are kaput.
An interesting quote from Saab AB CEO.
Quote: On 29 May 2012, Saab AB (aerospace and defence company) CEO Håkan Buskhe spoke to the media for the first time in an interview regarding the bankruptcy of Saab Automobile.[89] Saab AB has the rights to the name Saab Automobile and has the possibility to block the use of the name for any potential buyer of Saab Automobile. He stated that as long as any potential buyer will continue production and development in Trollhättan they will grant the use of the name but that they will block any deal with a buyer who has the intent of taking production and development outside the country.
PHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7253 posts, RR: 25 Reply 20, posted (11 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3288 times:
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 12): Maybe what Ford needs is Ford-Lincoln dealers but, more than that, good Lincoln products that are not just spiffed Ford products with slightly different sheetmetal.
Actually, many Ford and Lincoln dealers have already since consolidated under one roof for a few years now. While that move is pleasing to the bean-counters, IMHO, it's done the Lincoln brand more harm than good because there's now essentially a Ford product equivalent for every Lincoln model available; especially now that the Town Car's gone.
I do agree with you that Lincoln will need to offer more distinguishing products from its Ford bretheren if it wants to have relevance and a reason to exist.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
EddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7175 posts, RR: 45 Reply 22, posted (11 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3246 times:
Quoting tommy767 (Reply 18): Saab is dead in the water now that GM doesn't own them anymore. However their new ownership might be good for them overall.
Saab is, very sadly, dead. I owned a GM-era 2003 9-3 2.0t Linear sedan and I think it was a fantastic car. I never experienced any defects, rattles, etc. The handling was very good, the suspension was not too soft and not too tight, the materials used in the cabin were very high quality. It is a shame that Saab did not have a place within GM after the crisis, and that the purchasers could not revive the brand. Saab will be dearly missed.
Not anymore. FIAT is doing a good job. The new Dodge Dart will be a credible and quality offering in the compact sedan market. The driving dynamics should be very good thanks to the Alfa Romeo Giulieta-derived chassis. The Grand Cherokee is awesome; would definitely get one if I were in the market for a midsize SUV. I am expecting great things from Chrysler in the next few years. The replacements for the Avenger and the 200 due in 12-18 months will be the real test of fire, and I am sure Chrysler will not disappoint. I am a huge fan of Marchionne.
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 20): I do agree with you that Lincoln will need to offer more distinguishing products from its Ford bretheren if it wants to have relevance and a reason to exist.
Yes, it needs distinctive products. That is the key I think. The new 2013 Fusion/Mondeo is a great car and I am sure many people will wonder why one should buy the new 2013 MKZ over a top-spec Fusion other than for boasting ownership of a car with a "premium" nameplate. That said, the 2013 does not look bad, so I hope it represents a turning point for Lincoln.
canoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2657 posts, RR: 12 Reply 23, posted (11 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3230 times:
Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 21): They are huge in the Northwest and Northeast.
Here in the Pacific Northwest they literally are everywhere.
Quoting MAH4546 (Reply 13): Fiat isn't struggling. It should never have said it expected to sell 50,000 cars so quickly. That was very unrealistic, and it didn't help that the dealer network grew at a much slower rate than planned and the launch was delayed (why don't pundits use these facts?). Fiat's first year was better than Mini's first year, and look where Mini is now.
I've seen a number of Fiats in Seattle already. I suspect that the Fiat 500 could cut into sales of the Smart cars that young urbanites seem to also like here.
Alias1024 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2644 posts, RR: 2 Reply 24, posted (11 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3201 times:
It's amazing to me that the Mitsubishi Eclipse will end. Ten years ago it was such a hot car thanks to great marketing. Turns out that good commercials can only propel a crappy car so far. Another brand that's dying at least in the United States is Buick. They are trying to attract younger buyers with their current marketing, but I think it will probably be too little too late. When was the last time you met someone under 50 years old that bought a new Buick?
Quoting GSPflyer (Reply 8): Subaru isn't selling in large numbers like other brands in the U.S., but I heard that they probably have the best customer loyalty of any brand. I heard that a huge percentage of Subaru drivers that will end up buying another Subaru.
My girlfriend's six year old Impreza just needed a new head gasket after only 80,000 miles. Normally this would be the kind of thing that would turn you off of a brand, but Subaru paid for half the repairs even though the car was well outside the warranty. I was impressed that they'd make that kind of investment in customer loyalty.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
srbmod From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 16888 posts, RR: 51 Reply 25, posted (11 months 3 weeks 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3248 times:
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 9): Mazda also makes great cars - I've never even heard of one breaking down, but they've always been a little outside the mainstream in the US - can't figure out why.
My aunt had a Tribute and wasn't originally planning on trading it in anytime soon until the engine started burning a lot of oil and the Mazda dealership really couldn't figure out why. She ended up trading it in for Kia Sportage. My uncle has had a Mazda B-Series truck (A rebadged Ford Ranger) for a number of years and it still runs like a champ (of course Ford Rangers are pretty stout little trucks, as my dad has a 1994 Ranger and it's given him very few problems since he bought it new).
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 12): Subaru has carved a niche of its own, sells well in bad weather states in the U.S. and has the backing of its minority shareholder Toyota. I personally think they screwed the design of the current generation Legacy, but I think their prospects are not dire.
With the demise of SAAB, I wouldn't be surprised if Subaru starts getting some of their customers.
Quoting poLot (Reply 17): While Consumer Reports purposely made it tip over by driving very aggressively and doing I think close to 50 runs with it in order to get it to tip over, they never used a ramp nor were they accused of doing so.
Tanner Foust of the American version of Top Gear managed to turn one on its side during an episode their most recent season.
Lincoln does risk dying unless they get a line-up that is more unique looking and don't look like gussied up Fords. The MKT is pretty much the only offering that isn't a reworked version of a Ford (It does use the same platform as the Ford Explorer and Flex, which is not unusual.). There's been some missteps with Lincoln (Like the Blackwood and the LT), as the words Lincoln and truck should never be mentioned in the same sentence unless one is saying "My Lincoln is parked next to that truck.". The whole MK(insert letter here) thing is stupid as well. Quit trying to copy the alphabet soup of your competitors. Lincoln used to produce some of the most iconic cars (same with Cadillac) but now look like luxury Fords (which has been the direction the company has been headed for years). Lincoln suffers some of the same stigma that Cadillac and Buick have, that it's an "old person's brand". About the only inroads Lincoln made with being less of an "old person's brand" was with the Navigator (Much like Cadillac has done with their Escalade.).
canoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2657 posts, RR: 12 Reply 26, posted (11 months 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3222 times:
Quoting srbmod (Reply 25): With the demise of SAAB, I wouldn't be surprised if Subaru starts getting some of their customers.
I can't see that at all. The kind of people that buy Subaru Outbacks buy Toyota Highlanders. I don't see how architects that buy SAABs would want to buy an Outback. You might see them in Fiat 500s or Mini's before that.
poLot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 1497 posts, RR: 0 Reply 27, posted (11 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3201 times:
Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 26): I can't see that at all. The kind of people that buy Subaru Outbacks buy Toyota Highlanders. I don't see how architects that buy SAABs would want to buy an Outback. You might see them in Fiat 500s or Mini's before that.
Subaru's are popular in the "hipster/college professor" crowd that Saab use to dominate in a long time ago.
StuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1781 posts, RR: 1 Reply 28, posted (11 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3171 times:
Quoting poLot (Reply 27): Subaru's are popular in the "hipster/college professor" crowd that Saab use to dominate in a long time ago.
While that may be true (I'm skeptical), Subarus are certainly popular in a much wider demographic than that in some regions of the country (as previously mentioned). Saabs never really were.
sccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5091 posts, RR: 28 Reply 29, posted (11 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3139 times:
Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 24): Another brand that's dying at least in the United States is Buick. They are trying to attract younger buyers with their current marketing, but I think it will probably be too little too late. When was the last time you met someone under 50 years old that bought a new Buick?
Really?
The new Buicks are selling very well, with both the LaCrosse and Regal selling to a much younger market than Buick has traditionally served. These are modern, relevant and very well-built cars and, were I shopping today, I'd consider one (the LaCrosse).
The new smaller Buick, the Verano, is supposed to be good as well, but I have not looked at or driven one yet.
The Enclave is (at least, around here) a very popular choice for SUV buyers who don't want the mass of a Suburban, or the mind-numbing sameness of the Lexoids.
Fact is, Buick is on a roll.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
JJJ From Spain, joined May 2006, 1617 posts, RR: 2 Reply 30, posted (11 months 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3100 times:
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 16):
Which is BS. I´ve been driving first a SJ410 and later a SJ413 for years. They are maybe the closest you´ll find today as a successor of the old Willies Jeep.
Same here, I still own a 413 now close to the 200.000km mark, with a good bunch of those done in tracks and offroad (it's a farm/hunting vehicle exclusively, the only time it touches asphalt is to get the yearly inspection done).
na From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 9611 posts, RR: 10 Reply 31, posted (11 months 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3077 times:
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 12): Finally, the MX-5 or Miata will see soon a new replacement. Alfa Romeo and Mazda will pool their resources to build a new generation Mazda Miata and Alfa Romeo Spider in a Mazda plant in Japan. Each vehicle will have distinct styling but both will share a new rwd chassis and the trademark handling characteristics that have made the Miata famous all these years. I am expecting this car to be great.
I also think that the next joint Mazda MX-5/Alfa Spider should be a great car. If it gets the styling of the Pininfarina Duettotanta prototype, and the modified underpinnings and build quality of the MX-5 nothing can go wrong. It´ll be THE world standard for spiders.
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 22): FIAT is doing a good job. The new Dodge Dart will be a credible and quality offering in the compact sedan market. The driving dynamics should be very good thanks to the Alfa Romeo Giulieta-derived chassis. The Grand Cherokee is awesome; would definitely get one if I were in the market for a midsize SUV. I am expecting great things from Chrysler in the next few years. The replacements for the Avenger and the 200 due in 12-18 months will be the real test of fire, and I am sure Chrysler will not disappoint. I am a huge fan of Marchionne.
Well, its a hard time they are going through at the moment, but the future should be bright with a lot of new models debuting around 2015. What Chrysler needs, is better chassis, smarter engines and better styling, what Alfa/Lancia and less so Fiat needs, are bigger numbers. Both could work by cooperating, but only if the cars are much different from the outside. The badge-engineering Lancias of now are crooks which wont last long, even if the Thema is much nicer inside than the 300M.
Dreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 7774 posts, RR: 22 Reply 32, posted (11 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3057 times:
Quoting canoecarrier (Reply 26): I can't see that at all. The kind of people that buy Subaru Outbacks buy Toyota Highlanders.
As I said, we are big fans of Outbacks, and I wouldn't be caught dead in a Toyota.
Quoting poLot (Reply 27): Subaru's are popular in the "hipster/college professor" crowd that Saab use to dominate in a long time ago.
We are anything but that demographic. Do you guys live in California or something? Where I come from, Outbacks are popular with farmers, families, retired people, and people who like a car that can just about do anything without using 15 MPG.
poLot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 1497 posts, RR: 0 Reply 33, posted (11 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3037 times:
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 32): We are anything but that demographic. Do you guys live in California or something? Where I come from, Outbacks are popular with farmers, families, retired people, and people who like a car that can just about do anything without using 15 MPG.
I didn't say they were solely popular with that group...they appeal to a lot of people for being all AWD (except for the upcoming BRZ). I was just pointing out that amongst that demographic Subaru is developing quite a following. I live in the Southeast now, so I don't see that many Subarus anymore, but when I lived up north they were popular with basically every type of person.
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10456 posts, RR: 20 Reply 34, posted (11 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3039 times:
Quoting StuckInCA (Reply 21): Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 2):
What about Suburu? I don't see much of their cars anymore in terms of new ones.
They are huge in the Northwest and Northeast.
Yes, much to my displeasure. Their non-performance cars should be banned from the passing lane on multi-lane roads and should be made to pull over whenever more than two cars are behind it on single lane roads. The WRXes on the other hand can go anywhere they want to!
Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 24): They are trying to attract younger buyers with their current marketing, but I think it will probably be too little too late. When was the last time you met someone under 50 years old that bought a new Buick?
Decades ago, when some of their models were actually in-sync with the times.
I just saw their new commercial with Shaq O'Neil and thought to myself, who are they trying to appeal to with that tacky interior?
A more generalized rant: why do most American makers not put any effort into driving dynamics? How many decades of auto reviews do they read and ignore that say the car had some nice features, but it had poor throttle response and crappy cornering? How much more could it add to the cost of a car to make it fun to drive? Don't these guys and gals also drive cars too? It's pretty sad if an imported rent-a-car is more fun to drive than is your own product, no?
Quoting srbmod (Reply 25): My uncle has had a Mazda B-Series truck (A rebadged Ford Ranger) for a number of years
I thought the heritage went the other way around: the underpinnings of the Ranger and the Explorer came from Mazda, and then were developed jointly?
Quoting sccutler (Reply 29): The new Buicks are selling very well, with both the LaCrosse and Regal selling to a much younger market than Buick has traditionally served. These are modern, relevant and very well-built cars and, were I shopping today, I'd consider one (the LaCrosse).
In May's Motor Trend they did a review of the following:
- MB C250
- Volvo S60 T5
- Infiniti G25
- Lexus IS 250
- Buick Regal GS
- Acura TSX V-6
- BMW 328i
- Audi A4 2.0 Quattro
Guess which place the Regal came in out of the 8 cars?
8th!
Even though it had the 2nd most power of any of the cars that were reviewed, was in the less expensive part of the spectrum, and had lots of features, it finished 8th.
To me, the most telling sentence was:
Quote:
Still, over our curvy test loop, we were unimpressed with the Regals' nervous handling dynamics, noticeable turbo lag, and frustrating transmission, which continually told us "Shift Denied".
Some other major issues were that it was the heaviest in the group (3748 lbs) and had the worst observed fuel economy in the group (14.6 MPG, but of course these guys were doing more than cruising down the interstate to grandma's house).
This car fits my rant above to a tee.
It's a shame, because Detroit has had decades to take in what the issues are. It's taken them this long to get close in reliability, which seems to be happening to a great degree because other car makers are not putting as much emphasis on reliability as they used to, i.e. they too are getting greedy and lazy. How many decades will it take till they make cars that are fun to drive?
KingairTA From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 445 posts, RR: 0 Reply 35, posted (11 months 3 weeks 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 3032 times:
That comparo was a joke. Look at the competition. MB, BMW, Audi...
It should have been compared to the Malibu, Camry, Accord, Optima, Fusion etc etc.
sccutler From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 5091 posts, RR: 28 Reply 36, posted (11 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3007 times:
I have to say, having not driven the Regal, my comments are anecdotal at best.
As a long-time consumer of of auto magazines, though, I have found that Motor Trend's reviews tend to be... sketchy.
I may just go down to my local Buick dealer and have a test-drive one day soon. Of course, the nearest one is quite a drive, as the one which was across the street from my office had its dealership pulled by ObaMotors (having only been in business for 43 years).
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
Dreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 7774 posts, RR: 22 Reply 37, posted (11 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3005 times:
Quoting sccutler (Reply 36): I may just go down to my local Buick dealer and have a test-drive one day soon. Of course, the nearest one is quite a drive, as the one which was across the street from my office had its dealership pulled by ObaMotors (having only been in business for 43 years).
The Chinese I'm sure will expand the dealer network.
PHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7253 posts, RR: 25 Reply 38, posted (11 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3004 times:
Quoting srbmod (Reply 25): Lincoln does risk dying unless they get a line-up that is more unique looking and don't look like gussied up Fords. The MKT is pretty much the only offering that isn't a reworked version of a Ford (It does use the same platform as the Ford Explorer and Flex, which is not unusual.).
The main issue w/the MKT is that its styling cues, particularly at the rear roof, comes at the expense of interior space; there's less interior room and cargo space in the MKT vs. the Flex (The Explorer uses the same D3 platform as the Taurus/MKS while the Flex/MKT uses the stretched D4 variant BTW). The raked rear roof literally cuts into headroom along the 3rd row seats (at 5'-7", my head was touching the rear window). If Lincoln wanted to use that style roof, they should have made the MKT a little longer... enough to provide equal or better interior & cargo space.
As a result, this particular Lincoln has less room but carries a higher price than its fully-loaded Ford counterpart; Epic fail IMHO.
Similar holds true for MKS, which was launched a year before the redone 2010 Taurus. While it certainly looked different inside and out from the Taurus/Sable that existed at the time; it differed in not a good way. It had/has less interior room and trunk space than its Ford (& Mercury) bretheren but carries a higher price. When it first rolled out, many limo coachbuilders (they knew the Town Car was eventually going to be discontinued at the time) looked over the MKS and flat out rejected it for limo conversion usage. The primary reasons: too narrow and its more limited trunk space.
IMHO, the MKS is the ugliest Lincoln out there to date and is more of an Epic fail than the MKT and right up there with the Blackwood & LT attempts.
For its full-sizes, Lincoln needs to (at the very least) make its vehicles a little bit larger than its Ford counterparts; much like the Town Car was always larger/longer than the Crown Vic/Grand Marquis. That way, if one is comparing it to a fully-loaded Ford model; the difference in size might justify Lincoln's higher price and existence.
Quoting KingairTA (Reply 35): That comparo was a joke. Look at the competition. MB, BMW, Audi...
It should have been compared to the Malibu, Camry, Accord, Optima, Fusion etc etc.
Actually, the larger LaCrosse is more closer in size to those mid-size models. Do keep in mind that the LaCrosse is Buick's largest sedan only by default; the full-size Lucerne was discontinued with no successor.
Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 24): It's amazing to me that the Mitsubishi Eclipse will end. Ten years ago it was such a hot car thanks to great marketing.
During the late 70s/early 80s, the hottest-selling car in the U.S. was the Oldsmobile Cutlass Supreme. Where's Oldsmobile today? {*chirp*} {*chirp*}
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 22): The new 2013 Fusion/Mondeo is a great car and I am sure many people will wonder why one should buy the new 2013 MKZ over a top-spec Fusion other than for boasting ownership of a car with a "premium" nameplate. That said, the 2013 does not look bad, so I hope it represents a turning point for Lincoln.
Although I haven't seen a 2013 MKZ yet but it is my understanding is that it will look different than the 2013 Fusion and offer some unique optional equipment (sliding glasss roof). Hopefully, that distinction won't be a miscue like it was for the MKS (vs. the Taurus) and MKT (vs. the Flex).
[Edited 2012-05-30 08:07:09]
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10456 posts, RR: 20 Reply 39, posted (11 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 2933 times:
Quoting KingairTA (Reply 35): That comparo was a joke. Look at the competition. MB, BMW, Audi...
Nonsense. Here's some basic facts:
Buick Regal GS: Turbocharged I4, base $35.7k, as-tested $38.5k
Audi A4 Quatro: Turbocharged I4, base $34.1k, as-tested $43.1k
MB C250: Turbocharged I4, base $35.6k, as-tested $41.6k
BMW 328i: Turbocharged I4, base $35.8k, as-tested $50.6k *
* The article points out the BMW was straight from the product launch and loaded with every possible option, and that you can get a mechanically identical 328i Sport for $41.1k.
Quoting KingairTA (Reply 35): It should have been compared to the Malibu, Camry, Accord, Optima, Fusion etc etc.
Seriously? You think it's fair to compare your upscale/performance brand to everyone else's base line brands?
Isn't that what Buick is trying to be?
The prices seem to suggest so.
The main point is that this is a market segment that BMW has ruled for decades, and many other brands are putting out huge efforts to get a slice of the market, and the Buick along with the Infiniti just aren't making the grade, they aren't even close.
Sorry if you think comparing Buick to other cars in its price category is akin to clubbing a baby seal, but them's the facts.
Quoting sccutler (Reply 36): As a long-time consumer of of auto magazines, though, I have found that Motor Trend's reviews tend to be... sketchy.
How can you be sketchy about the fact that it's heavy and gets bad fuel economy?
The comments about the transmission may be subjective, but IMHO not something they'd lie about.
It's hard to get the tranny right, and I haven't heard anyone raving about GM's tech in this space.
I sense a lot of wishful thinking in this thread.
That's the problem with the US auto industry: they are living in the past, and can't deal with the facts of the current marketplace.
KingairTA From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 445 posts, RR: 0 Reply 40, posted (11 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2881 times:
Since when is Buick a performance brand? Also I would expect a FWD car to falter in handling when compared to RWD/AWD cars.
Sketchy being they have to find faults so they grab something very very minor and over emphasize it so they can justify they're reviews.
Also for years now The US big three have made huge improvements in overall quality and reliability but yet do not get the respect they deserve because of products made over 20 years ago and political issues.
I find it funny two brands that were laughed at just five years ago are now serious contenders and not taken lightly. Kia and Hyundai. How is it they aren't saddled with having to contend with the quality of their previous models? Because a couple editors for automags don't hound on it in every review. When they do they remark how far they came and they are great cars now.
How is it that auto mags can over look the past of those two brands but not GM and Ford?
Chrysler just never gets it. Lee Iococca (sp?) saved that company in the 80s with serious govt contracts. Back then the govt gave millions to chrysler not in loans but in sales.
As for General Motors in China. China is the largest growing market for auto sales. Any company that doesn't jump on that wagon is just foolish.
Please explain how the US auto industry is living in the past.
Gone are the days of badge engineering. Every model built today can and does compete with the competition in it's segment.
Flight152 From United States of America, joined Nov 2000, 3291 posts, RR: 7 Reply 41, posted (11 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2863 times:
Quoting KingairTA (Reply 40): Gone are the days of badge engineering.
OH really? Me thinks you need to take a peak at the entire Lincoln lineup. All I can see are Ford models with more silver painted plastic and better looking leather.
KingairTA From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 445 posts, RR: 0 Reply 42, posted (11 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2857 times:
I forgot to add.
While the Buick Regal GS was the "trim" tested people forget that it's based on a car that MSRPs for $27K
I would surely hope a car that MSRPs for over $50K to outperform a car that stickers for $38k
Just to get into a base model 328i(good luck finding one without ordering) Your in for $35k
The Regal with turbo premium group III gives up 20 hp to the BMW but also MSRPs for $33K And that comes with options that the base 328i doesn't
Anyone who would look at price alone will tell you a $50K car had better outperform out luxury a $38K car. If not the maker of the $50k car is going to go out of business quick.
Besides the GS isn't the bread and butter of the Regal line. You'll find lightly you'll find plenty of Regals in base form on many lots yet you won't find a single 328i in pure base trim without ordering it.
And yes the Optima is in the same size group as the Regal
Both are 190" long
Regal is 73" wide the Optima 72"
Regal is 58" tall the Optima 57"
Both have a turbo 2.0L producing 270 and 274hp.
Only performance difference is the Optima doesn't offer a manual.
Optima SX optioned out is $31k
So yes the Optima and Regal compete in the same segment.
srbmod From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 16888 posts, RR: 51 Reply 43, posted (11 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2841 times:
Quoting Revelation (Reply 34): I thought the heritage went the other way around: the underpinnings of the Ranger and the Explorer came from Mazda, and then were developed jointly?
When Mazda started selling the B Series based off the Ranger, it was around the time Ford refreshed the Ranger, but retained the platform that had been using for years. The first two generations of the Explorer (Madza sold a version of the Explorer Sport from 91-94 under the name Navajo.) were built on the same platform as the Ranger.
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 38): The main issue w/the MKT is that its styling cues, particularly at the rear roof, comes at the expense of interior space; there's less interior room and cargo space in the MKT vs. the Flex (The Explorer uses the same D3 platform as the Taurus/MKS while the Flex/MKT uses the stretched D4 variant BTW). The raked rear roof literally cuts into headroom along the 3rd row seats (at 5'-7", my head was touching the rear window). If Lincoln wanted to use that style roof, they should have made the MKT a little longer... enough to provide equal or better interior & cargo space.
That was a similar complaint about the Dodge Magnum (Which is something I hope gets addressed if they actually do resurrect it as rumored.).
NorthStarDC4M From Canada, joined Apr 2000, 2804 posts, RR: 40 Reply 44, posted (11 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 2838 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW CHAT OPERATOR
Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter): Mazda is trying to broaden its appeal with a new Mazda6 sedan this year, but Miata sports car is a very old platform now (and completely overshadowed by the new Scion FRS and Subie BRZ). The current Mazda3 model line-up is keeping Mazda afloat in the US market. Of course, the RX-8 is now defunct, with no replacement currently on the horizon.
Mazda isn't in any trouble, they have a full lineup:
Mazda 2 Sub Compact
Mazda 3 Compact
Mazda 5 Uhhh... Minivan/Car crossover?
Mazda 6 Full Size
CX-5 compact SUV
CX-7 small SUV
CX-9 full SUV
MX-5 roadster
Granted the MX-5 is in need of an overhaul...
But SkyActive is attracting alot of interest to the Mazda 3 and CX-5 this year, and it will be in the new Mazda 6 next year...
In Canada Mazda 3s are in 2nd place in their size class behind the Civic for March, beating out the Focus and Elantra, and they are gaining market.
Sports cars are not the bread and butter... and Mazda still offers the Speed 3 for the ricer-wanna-performance-bes.
Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10456 posts, RR: 20 Reply 45, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2806 times:
Quoting KingairTA (Reply 40): Since when is Buick a performance brand?
When it charges performance brand money?
Or are you paying for all that gaudy (and apparently heavy) trim?
Quoting KingairTA (Reply 40): Also I would expect a FWD car to falter in handling when compared to RWD/AWD cars.
It's not the only FWD in the review.
Quoting KingairTA (Reply 40): Sketchy being they have to find faults so they grab something very very minor and over emphasize it so they can justify they're reviews.
Like vehicle weight and MPG?
Quoting KingairTA (Reply 40): Also for years now The US big three have made huge improvements in overall quality and reliability but yet do not get the respect they deserve because of products made over 20 years ago and political issues.
Sure, I agree they've made huge improvements in overall quality and reliability, but they started out far behind in those areas and the competitors haven't sat on their hands waiting for the big three to catch up.
Quoting KingairTA (Reply 40): Please explain how the US auto industry is living in the past.
They've had their butts kicked in many important market segments for decades now, and have not been able to come up with a plan to meet or exceed their competition in all that time.
Quoting KingairTA (Reply 40): Gone are the days of badge engineering. Every model built today can and does compete with the competition in it's segment.
Ok, what big three model do you suggest to put up against the competition above?
Quoting KingairTA (Reply 42): While the Buick Regal GS was the "trim" tested people forget that it's based on a car that MSRPs for $27K
Yet it's base price is $35.7k. If you are trying to say the Regal is poor value for money, I'm agreeing.
Quoting KingairTA (Reply 42): I would surely hope a car that MSRPs for over $50K to outperform a car that stickers for $38k
Read the part about how you can get a mechanically identical 328i Sport for $41.1k.
Quoting KingairTA (Reply 42): Just to get into a base model 328i(good luck finding one without ordering) Your in for $35k
And IMHO you'll get a car that is fun to drive and is definitely the leader in its class, as it has been for decades now.
Certainly a lot better car than the base-level Buick Regal GS for $35.7k.
And with the big success of the brand in China, its survival and thriving are more than assured.
Quoting na (Reply 31): Well, its a hard time they are going through at the moment, but the future should be bright with a lot of new models debuting around 2015. What Chrysler needs, is better chassis, smarter engines and better styling, what Alfa/Lancia and less so Fiat needs, are bigger numbers. Both could work by cooperating, but only if the cars are much different from the outside. The badge-engineering Lancias of now are crooks which wont last long, even if the Thema is much nicer inside than the 300M.
Agree. Right now their most important problem is the lack of a credible midsize sedan that can compete with the Malibu, the Fusion, the Camry, the Accord, the Passat, the Sonata, etc. I expect their next gen-midsize sedan(s) will be a great car.
I believe that the whole point of FIAT taking a stake in Chrysler and growing it until the two companies are merged is to cooperate across all market segments, cut the number of distinct platforms, and develop world cars with regional fine-tuning to suit local consumers.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 34): - MB C250
- Volvo S60 T5
- Infiniti G25
- Lexus IS 250
- Buick Regal GS
- Acura TSX V-6
- BMW 328i
- Audi A4 2.0 Quattro
Quoting KingairTA (Reply 35): That comparo was a joke. Look at the competition. MB, BMW, Audi...
I think so too. The G25, the IS 250, the C250, and the 328i are all rear-wheel drive with a focus on sharp handling. I think the Regal would have been in a more level playing field with the Lexus ES and the new Passat (as well as the S60, the A4 and the TSX).
Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 38): Although I haven't seen a 2013 MKZ yet but it is my understanding is that it will look different than the 2013 Fusion and offer some unique optional equipment (sliding glasss roof).
It is. There are pics and reports now online on Motor Trend and other automotive publications and websites. As I said, not a bad-looking car.
srbmod From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 16888 posts, RR: 51 Reply 47, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2775 times:
Quoting na (Reply 31): What Chrysler needs, is better chassis, smarter engines and better styling, what Alfa/Lancia and less so Fiat needs, are bigger numbers. Both could work by cooperating, but only if the cars are much different from the outside. The badge-engineering Lancias of now are crooks which wont last long, even if the Thema is much nicer inside than the 300M.
Chrysler in recent years introduced a new V-6, the Pentastar that will be used across the Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep/Lancia/Fiat/Ram brands (It is also being put in the VW Routan, a badge-engineered minivan based on the Town & Country/Caravan.). It replaces the LH V-6 that they had used since 1998. Chrysler used the AMC Straight 6 design which dated back to the early 1960s (the 4.0 version was one of the last engines AMC developed prior to the buyout by Chrysler.) until 2006. Fiat's MultiAir engine will be used in some of the smaller vehicles as will Chrysler's World Engine.
As for the styling, that's beginning to improve, as the 200 (nee Sebring) and 300 do look better than their previous generations (The 200's looks almost make you forget it's a facelifted Sebring.). The new SRT Viper as well as the Dodge Dart are two examples of what the Fiat ownership has coming down the pike in terms of what the style for future Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep products is going to be. The 200 and 300C are rumored to be getting redesigned in 2014 and rumors are that the 200 may be designed by Lancia and the 300C may be also getting the Imperial treatment as well to move the brand a bit more upscale (Too bad they never put the proposed Imperial from a couple of years ago into production.).
stasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3266 posts, RR: 6 Reply 48, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2762 times:
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 12): What about the Kizashi, btw? Is it a competent car and is it priced right?
Kizashi has three major problems. 1. A name that Americans find difficult to pronounce. 2. A non-existent dealer network in middle America. 3) Too small of a rear seat for a midsized sedan. It's really short on leg room.
The other major problem - Volkswagen cut the price of the Jetta sedan to an sticker price below the price of the Kizashi, killing Suzuki's sales. I have never seen a Kizashi on the streets of Phoenix,
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 22): The replacements for the Avenger and the 200 due in 12-18 months will be the real test of fire, and I am sure Chrysler will not disappoint. I am a huge fan of Marchionne.
I am a fan of Marchionne as well. The Avenger/Sebring replacement should be as good as the current Dart is. And I like the styling of the Dart alot - kinda like a mini-Charger.
Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 24): When was the last time you met someone under 50 years old that bought a new Buick?
My early 30's next-door neighbor (a Phoenix fireman) and his mid-twenties wife have a new 2011 pearl-white Buick Lacrosse. It is a good looking car and he seems very pleased with it.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 34): In May's Motor Trend they did a review of the following:
Never believe ANYTHING from Motor Trend. They gave the Vega, the Renault Alliance, and the Chevy CItation their "Car of the Year" awards. Totally biased to certain manufacturers. Yikes!!!
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
srbmod From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 16888 posts, RR: 51 Reply 49, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2707 times:
Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 48): My early 30's next-door neighbor (a Phoenix fireman) and his mid-twenties wife have a new 2011 pearl-white Buick Lacrosse. It is a good looking car and he seems very pleased with it.
Buick does make some nice looking cars and while they do have the image of being a car brand for "old people" (much like Lincoln and Cadillac), they are trying to shake that image with the Regal (and the Verano as well as the upcoming Encore crossover). Hiring Tiger Woods to be their spokesman when they introduced the Rendezvous about a dozen years ago didn't bring the younger audience they expected. They really haven't had a car that appeared to younger buyers since the Regal Grand National/Regal T-Type/Regal GNX back in the 1980s. Then came the restyle for the 1988 model year that made the Regal a stodgy car.
EddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7175 posts, RR: 45 Reply 50, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2687 times:
Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 48): Kizashi has three major problems. 1. A name that Americans find difficult to pronounce. 2. A non-existent dealer network in middle America. 3) Too small of a rear seat for a midsized sedan. It's really short on leg room.
The other major problem - Volkswagen cut the price of the Jetta sedan to an sticker price below the price of the Kizashi, killing Suzuki's sales. I have never seen a Kizashi on the streets of Phoenix,
Gotcha. Yes, seems it is quite disadvantaged hehe. Would you happen to know if Suzuki has stand-alone dealers in the U.S. or if they are shared with those of other smaller brands?
Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 48): My early 30's next-door neighbor (a Phoenix fireman) and his mid-twenties wife have a new 2011 pearl-white Buick Lacrosse. It is a good looking car and he seems very pleased with it.
Seems to me like a bit of an odd choice for a couple of that age, but I guess GM will be very pleased!
stasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3266 posts, RR: 6 Reply 51, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2670 times:
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 50): Would you happen to know if Suzuki has stand-alone dealers in the U.S. or if they are shared with those of other smaller brands?
Shared dealerships in all of the dealerships I've seen. The Suzuki dealer in Long Beach, CA (where I bought my SX4 sedan) was paired with a used car dealership for a Toyota store.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
na From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 9611 posts, RR: 10 Reply 53, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2613 times:
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 46): Agree. Right now their most important problem is the lack of a credible midsize sedan that can compete with the Malibu, the Fusion, the Camry, the Accord, the Passat, the Sonata, etc. I expect their next gen-midsize sedan(s) will be a great car.
I am of cause looking more from the European perspective on this, being an Alfa Romeo driver and enthusiast for 20 years, owning several 164 and 166 sedans consecutively, actually still own one, which were positioned half a class above the Passat/Camry level. The 166 was discontinued in 2007, and the slightly smaller 159 in 2011. As much as I heard there will be a successor of the 159 which is been jointly developed with Chrysler at the moment and which will debut first as the AR Giulia in 2014. This car will be a midsize sedan certainly with a lttle less interior room than a Passat, having a more rakish, lower-cut design which will much better looking than any of the competition. If anything, think about a BMW 3-series with sleeker design. There will be a sporty estate version of it named Sportwagon which also will be more of a lifestyle transport rather than a roomy utility car like the Passat or Camry Estates are. Likely the Chrysler version will be designed less elegant to reach the masses. Alfa puts design and sportiness far ahead of class-leading spaciousness or other boring "good housewife"-attributes. Its their brand-DNA which wont be touched.
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 46): I believe that the whole point of FIAT taking a stake in Chrysler and growing it until the two companies are merged is to cooperate across all market segments, cut the number of distinct platforms, and develop world cars with regional fine-tuning to suit local consumers.
By 2015 much of it should be achieved. While most of the lineup will be crossovers of both brands to more or less extent (I very much hope they keep distinctly European design) I think there will still be certain cars which will be wholly European or wholly US. The next "big" Alfa Sedan of about 2015/2016 (BMW 5-series size) will be a lesser version of the new Maserati mid-size car debuting in 2013/2014 and which can hardly be thought of as a Chrysler. The smaller cars, and the sportier/elegant midsize cars should be expected to be largely based on European ideas and especially design, while on the other hand much of the SUV, Van and Pickup lineup will be dictated by the US side. With a completely new big Sedan (300M, Thema) being 50/50.
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10456 posts, RR: 20 Reply 54, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2584 times:
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 46): I think so too. The G25, the IS 250, the C250, and the 328i are all rear-wheel drive with a focus on sharp handling. I think the Regal would have been in a more level playing field with the Lexus ES and the new Passat (as well as the S60, the A4 and the TSX).
I don't understand why, other than you don't want to expose the Regal to some of the sharper competitors in its price range.
Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 48): Never believe ANYTHING from Motor Trend.
Interestingly enough, they also treat the Regal GS as a performance variant and compare it to the Volvo S60 R.
And, believe it or not, some of the same complaints surface immediately:
Quote:
Boasting 135 horsepower per liter, the turbo four-cylinder in the Regal GS has the highest specific output of any engine ever produced by General Motors. Such power is noble, but the 3732-pound curb weight makes the engine seem like a mule when an ox might be a more prudent means of hauling this cart. Wait . . . what? We’d like to see this engine in a lighter car is what we’re trying to say. The performance of the GS is a considerable improvement over that of the Regal Turbo: It’s 0.6 second quicker to 60 mph—at 6.2 seconds—and 0.4 quicker through the quarter-mile, at 15.0 seconds. But the GS applies its power with no sense of urgency; the engine is perhaps too smooth. Or maybe it just lacks aural feedback. The only sound it makes is an annoying high-pitched whine at part throttle. Such composure is admirable but not what we look for in a performance variant. If you’re going to wear the war mask—as the GS most certainly does with its aggressively restyled front fascia—you should bring the thunder.
Some other sharp criticisms:
Quote:
But the Regal’s steering leaves us lost. It is best described as a bad approximation of a better system.
and:
Quote:
We are left wondering why a limited-slip differential was not part of the GS treatment.
Their conclusion is:
Quote:
It is a noteworthy improvement over the Regal T, a far bigger advance than the R-Design is over the S60 T6, and about $8000 cheaper than the Volvo. In fact, the GS shows us that despite its American reputation for building blandness, Buick can make a fun, sporty, and rewarding car.
which to me is surprising given the rest of the review. How could they call a car "fun, sporty, and rewarding" when they start out by saying it's overweight and unresponsive and steers like crap?
Maybe they just like happy endings?
Quoting srbmod (Reply 49): Hiring Tiger Woods to be their spokesman when they introduced the Rendezvous about a dozen years ago didn't bring the younger audience they expected.
Given the qualities the car has, it will not appeal to a younger audience, no matter who the spokesman is.
The commercial I saw with Shaq O'Neil has the car sitting outside of a mansion and IIRC it has him talking about now that he's retired he appreciates finer things, yada yada.
Seems they are aiming for the country club set, which IMHO isn't a very broad market.
Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 48): They gave the Vega, the Renault Alliance, and the Chevy CItation their "Car of the Year" awards. Totally biased to certain manufacturers.
The Vega and Citation are GM products yet they just trashed the Buick, so YMMV.
poLot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 1497 posts, RR: 0 Reply 55, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2557 times:
Quoting Revelation (Reply 54): Seems they are aiming for the country club set, which IMHO isn't a very broad market.
They are aiming for soft luxury. Generally softer, more comfortable rides, very quiet cabins with your standard upgraded technology. Think more Lexus (who is their primary competitor) than BMW and Mercedes. Cadillac aims more towards performance luxury, and better competes against those brands.
KingairTA From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 445 posts, RR: 0 Reply 56, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2534 times:
Quoting Revelation (Reply 45): Quoting KingairTA (Reply 40):
Since when is Buick a performance brand?
When it charges performance brand money?
Really? The GS is not a base trim. It's the top trim of a $27k car.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 45): Ok, what big three model do you suggest to put up against the competition above?
Caddillac CTS. Base model $36K with a V6 and manual. No turbo to wind up.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 45): They've had their butts kicked in many important market segments for decades now, and have not been able to come up with a plan to meet or exceed their competition in all that time.
Maybe because the truck and SUV market provided a larger profit margin. Besides have you even looked at the latest offerings? Have you even looked at the new cars of the past couple years? The new Cruze is a legit competior, the Spark looks promising, the Malibu is holding fine, the Focus and Fusion are bang on the Taurus isn't shabby. Go take a few test drives. I did. I was impressed with all of them.
I ended up buying an '11 Optima because it was the best bang for the buck.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 45): Read the part about how you can get a mechanically identical 328i Sport for $41.1k.
Since when is FWD mechanically identical to RWD?
The BMW is a sports car from the start. The Regal is a semi luxo car trying to be a performance car.
A vast majority of buyers will never push either car to the limits the way the auto rags do.
The Regal is a fine car for what it is. I'd like to see a comparo of the rest of the vehicles in it's class. Just because two vehicles can be bought for similar money does not make them competitors in the same market. Like I said earlier flaws are over exagerated to justify outcomes.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 54): Boasting 135 horsepower per liter, the turbo four-cylinder in the Regal GS has the highest specific output of any engine ever produced by General Motors. Such power is noble, but the 3732-pound curb weight makes the engine seem like a mule when an ox might be a more prudent means of hauling this cart.
Hmm funny my 98 W body weighs 3800 pounds and 30 less hp yet it gets up and goes fine. So it's roughly 200-300 pounds heavier then other cars in it's size range. The only time you'd ever notice this as an issue is at the drag strip. Your average buyer wouldn't notice.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 54): . But the GS applies its power with no sense of urgency; the engine is perhaps too smooth. Or maybe it just lacks aural feedback.
So a smooth reving quiet engine is now a fault? You can't win for losing nowadays it seams like.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 54): But the Regal’s steering leaves us lost. It is best described as a bad approximation of a better system.
Highly subjective but maybe it is the way it is because the car was never intended to be driven on a track. I bet it performs excellent when running around town like 99% of them will do.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 54): We are left wondering why a limited-slip differential was not part of the GS treatment
It is a noteworthy improvement over the Regal T, a far bigger advance than the R-Design is over the S60 T6, and about $8000 cheaper than the Volvo. In fact, the GS shows us that despite its American reputation for building blandness, Buick can make a fun, sporty, and rewarding car.
which to me is surprising given the rest of the review. How could they call a car "fun, sporty, and rewarding" when they start out by saying it's overweight and unresponsive and steers like crap?
Because they realize what the car is and what it does it does just fine and they have to find faults no matter how slight.
The nuances listed are so slight that your average driver wouldn't know the difference until the limits are pushed. BMWs are built to be driven at the limits. Regal GS' are built to be family cars with a little pep in it's step.
I really would like to see how the Regal GS stacks up to the Optima SX Both are very similar on paper only a few thousand dollars apart.
Earlier some one mentioned Fiat as a dying brand. Dying? Really?
One model has been on the market for a year now. I see more 500s running around in a week then I have seen Smart cars in the past two years.
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10456 posts, RR: 20 Reply 57, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2523 times:
Quoting KingairTA (Reply 56): So a smooth reving quiet engine is now a fault?
They also said "the only sound it makes is an annoying high-pitched whine at part throttle", so perhaps "quiet" is a step too far.
Quoting KingairTA (Reply 56): Caddillac CTS. Base model $36K with a V6 and manual. No turbo to wind up.
Fair enough. I agree it'd be a better comparison, and one that I would like to see.
Quoting KingairTA (Reply 56): Like I said earlier flaws are over exagerated to justify outcomes.
In some cases, it seems they do the opposite, they heap praise on a car to justify an outcome.
It's strange that in this C&D review that they basically say the car is disappointing, but less disappointing than its predecessor, so that's a good thing!
Quoting KingairTA (Reply 56): The nuances listed are so slight that your average driver wouldn't know the difference until the limits are pushed.
I don't know about that, especially for the key younger demographic that GM needs to capture.
Your descriptions of the Regal and its target market are helpful and appreciated, but after reading them, it's not clear to me that putting out this kind of car to chase that kind of market is a winning strategy.
Quoting KingairTA (Reply 56): I really would like to see how the Regal GS stacks up to the Optima SX Both are very similar on paper only a few thousand dollars apart.
KingairTA From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 445 posts, RR: 0 Reply 58, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2519 times:
Quoting Revelation (Reply 57): It's strange that in this C&D review that they basically say the car is disappointing, but less disappointing than its predecessor, so that's a good thing!
I believe in that statement they are comparing the GS to the lower trim level of turbo III. Which is another Regal with a turbo 4 but in that trim level the 2.0l only makes about 220 hp.
PHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7253 posts, RR: 25 Reply 59, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2497 times:
Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 48): Never believe ANYTHING from Motor Trend. They gave the Vega, the Renault Alliance, and the Chevy Citation their "Car of the Year" awards. Totally biased to certain manufacturers. Yikes!!!
You do realize that back then, Motor Trend did 2 separate COTY tests for each model year: one for domestics (you listed the winners for '71, '80 & '83), the other for imports (1970, 1976-1999) aka Import Car of the Year (ICOTY). And before anyone jumps in regarding the Alliance; yes, MT did receive flak for considering the Alliance (dubbed AMC/Renault Alliance back then) a domestic vehicles (it technically was) never mind giving it the award.
They didn't consolidate the COTY tests (domestic & import) all into one test until 2000.
"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
EddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7175 posts, RR: 45 Reply 60, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2486 times:
Quoting na (Reply 53): s much as I heard there will be a successor of the 159 which is been jointly developed with Chrysler at the moment and which will debut first as the AR Giulia in 2014. This car will be a midsize sedan certainly with a lttle less interior room than a Passat, having a more rakish, lower-cut design which will much better looking than any of the competition. If anything, think about a BMW 3-series with sleeker design. There will be a sporty estate version of it named Sportwagon which also will be more of a lifestyle transport rather than a roomy utility car like the Passat or Camry Estates are. Likely the Chrysler version will be designed less elegant to reach the masses. Alfa puts design and sportiness far ahead of class-leading spaciousness or other boring "good housewife"-attributes. Its their brand-DNA which wont be touched.
The replacement of the 159 (Giulia, right?) is going to be a great car I am sure. I agree it might end up being a bit smaller than the Passat, Mondeo, Camry, Insignia, etc., but that is not a bad thing per se. It will not compete in the family sedan category, but rather in the so-called "compact executive" market, and will have measurements close to those of the C-Class, the A4, the 3-Series, etc. It will also be sportier and more premium than the Passat, Mondeo, etc. too. I am assuming this new car will provide the basis for the Chrysler 200/Dodge Avenger replacement, but as you say the Chrysler and Dodge will probably be longer and wider, roomier inside and more oriented towards the midsize family sedan market so it can compete in the U.S. and Canada with the Camry, the Fusion, the Malibu, the Accord, etc.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 54): I don't understand why, other than you don't want to expose the Regal to some of the sharper competitors in its price range.
Apples to apples. The Buick Regal is an Americanized Opel Insignia, which is nothing more and nothing less than a family sedan. A fwd family sedan, no matter how much tuning it receives from expert engineers, will never compete successfully with dedicated, premium sporty sedans, especially when we are talking of rwd ones like the IS or the 3-Series. GM will have a true 3-Series contender soon. It will be the Cadillac ATS. The Regal is clearly not in the same market as the IS, the Infiniti G, the 3-Series or the C-Class even if their price is more or less equivalent. I think the Regal's competition are the likes of the Acura TSX, the non-awd Volvo S60, etc.
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10456 posts, RR: 20 Reply 61, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2441 times:
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 60): The Buick Regal is an Americanized Opel Insignia, which is nothing more and nothing less than a family sedan. A fwd family sedan, no matter how much tuning it receives from expert engineers, will never compete successfully with dedicated, premium sporty sedans, especially when we are talking of rwd ones like the IS or the 3-Series. GM will have a true 3-Series contender soon. It will be the Cadillac ATS. The Regal is clearly not in the same market as the IS, the Infiniti G, the 3-Series or the C-Class even if their price is more or less equivalent. I think the Regal's competition are the likes of the Acura TSX, the non-awd Volvo S60, etc.
Ok, your post and KingairTA's have helped me understand better where Buick is positioning its products.
I'll be interested to see how good a car the ATS turns out to be, because I'm more of a performance fan than a luxury fan.
KiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 5286 posts, RR: 3 Reply 62, posted (11 months 3 weeks 5 days ago) and read 2418 times:
Quoting KingairTA (Reply 56):
The BMW is a sports car from the start.
No it isn't, it's a sports saloon, however BMW have taken away a fare amount of the sport and improved the comfort in the F30 3 series, it's now closer to the C Class the it's ever been.
srbmod From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 16888 posts, RR: 51 Reply 63, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 23 hours ago) and read 2408 times:
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 50): Would you happen to know if Suzuki has stand-alone dealers in the U.S. or if they are shared with those of other smaller brands?
We have three Suzuki dealerships in the Atlanta area (There's one that closed but still maintains a service and parts department and I know of another one that closed outright several years ago.) and only one of them is a standalone dealer. One is on the same property as a Hyundai dealership and the other is sold by a company that primarily deals in used cars.
Suzuki has made some bad decisions in the US market in recent years. Their pickup truck, the Equator, which is a rebadged Nissan Frontier, lists at a higher starting price than the Nissan version ($19,440 v. $19,010 for the base version and $25,699 v. 23,050 for the base Crew Cab). Other than the ones I've seen on the dealer lot, I think I can count the number of them I've seen on one hand and have fingers left. Even if the Equator sold for less than the Nissan Frontier, I still don't think people would be interested in as one typically does not think of Suzuki when it comes to trucks.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14328 posts, RR: 26 Reply 64, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2387 times:
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 62): No it isn't, it's a sports saloon, however BMW have taken away a fare amount of the sport and improved the comfort in the F30 3 series, it's now closer to the C Class the it's ever been.
BMW has recognized the gap and changed accordingly. I don't know how it is elsewhere, but to address the differences in priorities, BMW is offering the 3 series with three different trim levels: Modern Line, Sport Line, and Luxury Line. Some of the interior pieces and exterior styling is different and the sport model offers a sport suspension as well. Referring to them as trim levels is a bit disingenuous since all of the packages are pretty much the same price.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
tommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6172 posts, RR: 9 Reply 65, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2365 times:
In that comparison the new Cadillac ATS would have been more fair than the Regal. I'm sorry, it's not exactly fair to lump it in there with the performance Euro sedans.
"Folks that's the news and I'm outta here!" -- Dennis Miller
KingairTA From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 445 posts, RR: 0 Reply 67, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2257 times:
No it isn't, it's a sports saloon, however BMW have taken away a fare amount of the sport and improved the comfort in the F30 3 series, it's now closer to the C Class the it's ever been.
Semantics. You know what I was talking about and besides in the US it isn't "Saloon" It's "Sedan"
But still the car is designed to be a drivers car first everything else second. Where the Buick is just the opposite.
KiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 5286 posts, RR: 3 Reply 68, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2254 times:
Quoting KingairTA (Reply 67): But still the car is designed to be a drivers car first everything else second.
I gotta disagree with this, BMW are much less sporting today that they were in decades past, the 'Ultimate Driving Machine' only applies to the M and BMW Performance and Msport models, all the rest have been dumbed down to appeal to a much wider market.
Get behind the wheel of a 116D and try convince me it's a drivers car first and everything else second.
Charles79 From Puerto Rico, joined Mar 2007, 1307 posts, RR: 5 Reply 69, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2224 times:
I know I'm late to this thread but I thought I'd try and steer the conversation back to the topic. When looking at car sales by brand I try to look beyond the absolute number - the total sales can often mask issues such as brands being in the middle of introducing a new model, discontinuation of a popular model, or one brand offering large incentives to build volume. That said, I decided to take a look at the year to date sales through April (only a handful of manufacturers have reported their May sales). The data had a few surprises (I got the numbers from www.goodcarbadcar.com).
- Mazda, mentioned by some as "dying", has sold over 103K cars Jan-Apr, a 21% jump over the previous year. With the new CX-5 hitting dealers now I expect their sales to continue climbing.
- Subaru, another "dying" brand according to some, sold nearly 107K in the same period, an increase of 16%. The new Impreza must be helping (up 104%!). Volkswagen also saw sales jump (by 38%) to 132K; VW, though, has two new cars (Passat and Beetle), a fresh re-design (Tiguan), and a very popular Jetta.
- Truly deserving of the title of "dying" would be Mitsubishi, with only 22K sales (a 22% drop). I used to drive a 1998 Mirage and still hold that car to high standards for its reliability (stayed in the family until 2009 when it was sold to its current owner). Sadly, the Mirage is yesterday's news and today's Lancer can't compete on efficiency, packaging, quality, and value with the Jetta, Focus, Cruze, Elantra, or Corolla. Mitsubishi is also loosing sales due to the lack of a family saloon (Galant) and the Eclipse (production ended last year IIRC). Their new Mirage can't come soon enough to the market.
- Suzuki is also on life support, only selling 8335 cars the first four months of the year. I don't think that Suzuki considers the US a critical market, though; as it was already mentioned, Suzuki is one of the bigger sellers in many developing markets. Oh, and to the poster that brought up the Equator, Suzuki has shifted 567 of these YTD.
- Finally, some posters were arguing over whether Buick deserved to be compared to BMW and Mercedes-Benz or if its real target is Lexus. IMO, the current Regal and Lacrosse are clear alternatives to an ES350 or S60, not a 3-Series; I think the market agrees as Lexus sales, at 66K, are not that far ahead of Buick at 53K (for comparison, BMW logged 82K sales and Mercedes-Benz 88K). For specific models, I see that the 3-Series claimed 33K sales, followed by the C-Class with 24K, LaCrosse with 18K, Lexus ES at 11.5K, and the Regal just under 10K.
If any of the numbers I quoted are inaccurate feel free to provide the correct data.
Dreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 7774 posts, RR: 22 Reply 70, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2217 times:
poLot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 1497 posts, RR: 0 Reply 71, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2192 times:
Quoting Charles79 (Reply 69): - Mazda, mentioned by some as "dying", has sold over 103K cars Jan-Apr, a 21% jump over the previous year. With the new CX-5 hitting dealers now I expect their sales to continue climbing.
The big reason people worry about Mazda is while their sales are ok, they are unprofitable and have been for several years. They are a relatively small company so it is harder for them to restructure like GM or Chrysler.
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 70): The first American car on the list is in 7th place. That's embarrassing.
While that is currently true, the Fusion was the 4th best selling car in 2011. Its demand right now is no doubt depressed due to people holding off for the upcoming new model (while Toyota is experiencing increased sales for the Camry as it is a new model). And lumping the Corolla and Matrix and now the Prius Family, which includes the new Prius C which is built on a completely different platform, together is always controversial amongst auto pundits to say the least (note I'm not blaming you, I know how that is how the companies report them).
EDIT: By the way, for anyone interested in looking at the numbers, the correct URL for the site mentioned above is http://www.goodcarbadcar.net/
KingairTA From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 445 posts, RR: 0 Reply 72, posted (11 months 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2169 times:
I agree the prius family numbers are skewed. Combining two different platforms only enhances the numbers to make it look better.
mah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31117 posts, RR: 74 Reply 73, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2114 times:
Fiat just hit 4,000 monthly sales in the United States and the 500 is now one of Canada's twenty best-selling nameplates.
So much for the "Fiat is a flop" statements. Fiat will probably hit close to 40,000 in the United States this year; and 10,000+ in Canada, meeting it's 50,000 target in it's first full year of sales with a built-out dealer network, just like it originally said it would.
KingairTA From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 445 posts, RR: 0 Reply 74, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 2108 times:
Some one mentioned the ATS.
I expect great things from that car. Just look how good the CTS is.
stasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3266 posts, RR: 6 Reply 75, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2092 times:
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 11): Jaguar sales for the month were 1,022 up 48 percent from 692 in 2011.[/img]
This is the problem - while Jaguar truly has improved its sales performance, a thousand units sold in a month is NOT viable competition to Mercedes and BMW, which sell about 100,000 combined units per year in the USA.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
KiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 5286 posts, RR: 3 Reply 76, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 14 hours ago) and read 2045 times:
Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 75): This is the problem - while Jaguar truly has improved its sales performance, a thousand units sold in a month is NOT viable competition to Mercedes and BMW, which sell about 100,000 combined units per year in the USA.
Once the new E-type hits the ground at the end of the year and the new A4/3 series/C Class competitor arrives in 2014 Jaguar sales should start to boom.
srbmod From United States of America, joined Mar 2001, 16888 posts, RR: 51 Reply 77, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2027 times:
Quoting mah4546 (Reply 73): Fiat just hit 4,000 monthly sales in the United States and the 500 is now one of Canada's twenty best-selling nameplates.
I drove past one of the local Fiat dealers here and their inventory had definitely thinned out in recent weeks. I wonder how much of Fiat's North American sales these days are due to the Abarth? There were a lot of folks that were waiting for that version to be available before buying one and there was supposedly a pretty healthy waiting list for them.
poLot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 1497 posts, RR: 0 Reply 78, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 2011 times:
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 76): Once the new E-type hits the ground at the end of the year and the new A4/3 series/C Class competitor arrives in 2014 Jaguar sales should start to boom.
The A4/3 series/C Class competitor will certainly help, but the new E-type's impact is going to be minimal at best.
Charles79 From Puerto Rico, joined Mar 2007, 1307 posts, RR: 5 Reply 79, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1990 times:
Quoting poLot (Reply 71): While that is currently true, the Fusion was the 4th best selling car in 2011. Its demand right now is no doubt depressed due to people holding off for the upcoming new model (while Toyota is experiencing increased sales for the Camry as it is a new model).
This is one of the reasons why I mentioned that you can't look at the sales numbers in isolation to determine the health of a particular brand/model. Just as you mention, the Fusion being replaced soon, combined with the new Camry (plus Japan recovering from the earthquake), are factors which, when combined, lead to the results we are seeing right now. I expect the new Fusion to be very competitive in the marketplace without the need for substantial discounts, thus adding to Ford's already healthy profit margins.
Quoting poLot (Reply 71): They are a relatively small company so it is harder for them to restructure like GM or Chrysler.
It is interesting to note that Mazda is once again finding collaborating partners (such as the MX-5/Alfa Rome Spider tie-up). While I don't necessarily expect more consolidation in the industry, strategic partnership will be the key to ensure that the smaller players can afford the development costs to compete with the VWs, GMs, Fords, and Toyotas of the world. For instance, PSA has been selling Citroen and Peugeot versions of the Mitsubishi Outlander, and this month is introducing to the market the Citroen C4 Aircross based on the ASX. Though these are not likely to be huge sellers, that extra volume helps Mitsubishi spread the development costs for the models rather than rely on its own sales.
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 70): Here's something interesting. Here's a list of top selling cars (not trucks) in the US:
To put it in perspective, though, two of the Japanese models (Camry and Civic) are relatively new models while, as mentioned already, the Fusion is on its last legs. That said, the list does reflect the image issue that still haunts the American manufacturers. The Chevy Cruze and Ford Focus, for instance, have both received very positive reviews from the press (not just the US press, I read German and UK magazines and they have also liked the cars). However, the buyers still prefer the "reliable" choices of Civic and Corolla, but do note that the sales margin is getting narrower every year.
mham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3001 posts, RR: 3 Reply 80, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 1968 times:
Quoting NorthStarDC4M (Reply 44): Mazda isn't in any trouble, they have a full lineup:
Mazda leaders publicly disagree. They are shuttering NA plants, laying off 25% of their foreign workforce, actively seeking partners and introducing nebulous concepts they can't coherently explain (what's a Skyactive?)
[img]Jaguar Land Rover Naples Reports U.S. Sales for February 2012
Jaguar Land Rover North America sales for the month were 4,277 up 32 percent from 3,247 units in 2011. Land Rover sales for the month were 3,255 up 27 percent from 2,555 in 2011; Jaguar sales for the month were 1,022 up 48 percent from 692 in 2011.[/img]
There will be the new E-type and the Evoque is selling like hotcakes, all in all things are looking better and better for JLR.
Context, context. JaguarLR is not a blip in the US market with somewhere around .03% market share. Last month, Jaguar sales were down 14% from last year and looking at past years, (thanks Charles79 for the free numbers source), the downward spiral is very clear.
I believe Jaguar has the same image problem as Buick, makers of stodgy saloons driven by elderly old money.
Interesting that both those companies were dumped by Ford.
Quoting KingairTA (Reply 72): I agree the prius family numbers are skewed. Combining two different platforms only enhances the numbers to make it look better.
Not skewed. Manufacturers often split platforms within families. BMW for example has sold last years platform for some variants here while pushing out a new platform under other variants of the same model. The Prius is now mainstream, it was the 3rd best selling car in the world, Toyota has no reason to "skew" numbers.
KiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 5286 posts, RR: 3 Reply 81, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1915 times:
Quoting poLot (Reply 78): The A4/3 series/C Class competitor will certainly help, but the new E-type's impact is going to be minimal at best.
25,000 units a year is going to make a pretty big impact on Jaguars bottom line. I think it's going to end up a big hit like the Evoque.
Quoting mham001 (Reply 80): Last month, Jaguar sales were down 14% from last year and looking at past years,
So 1 month out of 12 when the other 11 where better than the proceeding year shows a downward spiral?
Quoting mham001 (Reply 80): I believe Jaguar has the same image problem as Buick, makers of stodgy saloons driven by elderly old money.
But they are not stodgy saloons, the XJ is better than 7 Series/S Class/A8/LS600 it's a stunning machine, the XF is as good as 5 Series/E Class/A6, the XK is the only one feeling a little long in the tooth.
poLot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 1497 posts, RR: 0 Reply 82, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1898 times:
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 81): 25,000 units a year is going to make a pretty big impact on Jaguars bottom line. I think it's going to end up a big hit like the Evoque.
I'm guessing that is world wide sales, and while that will help it is still going to be difficult to achieve, and still leave them very far behind its competitors. While I can see it being successful, I have trouble imagining that it will enjoy the success of the Evoque; the sports car market is much more limited and the F-type is expected to be much more expensive than the Evoque. Even BMW and Mercedes struggle to get that amount with their comparable cars.
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 81): But they are not stodgy saloons, the XJ is better than 7 Series/S Class/A8/LS600 it's a stunning machine, the XF is as good as 5 Series/E Class/A6, the XK is the only one feeling a little long in the tooth.
And neither, frankly, are most modern Buicks, and mham001 wasn't saying that they necessarily are. But as the saying goes, perception is reality.
KiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 5286 posts, RR: 3 Reply 83, posted (11 months 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1886 times:
Quoting poLot (Reply 82): and still leave them very far behind its competitors.
Jaguar is and always has been a niche brand.
Quoting poLot (Reply 82): Even BMW and Mercedes struggle to get that amount with their comparable cars.
Mercedes and BMW do not have any models that will compete directly with the F-type, the F-type splits the difference between the Cayenne and 911 which puts it above the SLK and Z4.
Charles79 From Puerto Rico, joined Mar 2007, 1307 posts, RR: 5 Reply 84, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1862 times:
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 81): 25,000 units a year is going to make a pretty big impact on Jaguars bottom line. I think it's going to end up a big hit like the Evoque.
A bit off-topic but I have an Autocar from December 1999 where they preview the X-type and back then Jaguar was hoping for 100K sales a year. It is refreshing to see that they are being a tad more modest with their predictions this time around!
Having said that, the right product might even give them 50K sales worldwide. The XK, XJ, and XF are all very desirable products in their own right; I can see a true 3-series rival (not a warmed up Mondeo like the X-type) being competitive in the marketplace.
Quoting poLot (Reply 82): But as the saying goes, perception is reality.
That is, unfortunately, what often kills otherwise truly competitive cars.
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10456 posts, RR: 20 Reply 85, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1785 times:
Quoting Charles79 (Reply 84): Quoting poLot (Reply 82):
But as the saying goes, perception is reality.
That is, unfortunately, what often kills otherwise truly competitive cars.
It's a true statement, yet totally understandable.
In auto owning societies, the car is central to our lives. It costs a lot of money to buy one, and even the best cars require ongoing maintenance. Many of us spend a fair part of our days in a car (for me, an hour and a half each weekday). Even though I'm a few years (hopefully) from buying a new car, I spend a fair amount of time thinking about what car I should buy next and how to budget for it. My friends ask me what I think of my car, and I ask them what they think of their cars. Like it or not, others quite often form opinions about you based on the car you drive.
So, give all that, if you own a car that leaves you stranded places, or leaves puddles of oil on the ground, or spends most of its time and most of your money being serviced, you will remember that car, and chances are good your friends will take note of it too, and you will remember cars they had bad experiences with.
Jag to a fair degree is dealing with baggage left over from some of the unreliable and hard to maintain cars of the 70s and 80s.
tommy767 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 6172 posts, RR: 9 Reply 86, posted (11 months 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 1745 times:
EddieDude From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 7175 posts, RR: 45 Reply 88, posted (11 months 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 1604 times:
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 62): No it isn't, it's a sports saloon, however BMW have taken away a fare amount of the sport and improved the comfort in the F30 3 series, it's now closer to the C Class the it's ever been.
I test drove a new 3-Series in February and I cannot wait to receive mine in July. It will be just as comfy in terms of ride as my 2008 C280 Classic, but much sportier!
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 64): BMW is offering the 3 series with three different trim levels: Modern Line, Sport Line, and Luxury Line. Some of the interior pieces and exterior styling is different and the sport model offers a sport suspension as well. Referring to them as trim levels is a bit disingenuous since all of the packages are pretty much the same price.
Yes, I think that is a worldwide thing. In some countries, there is a "base" line as well, which comes with less equipment. I think in Mexico you can get a "base" line 3-Series in the 320i lineup only. 328i's and 335i's will only come in Modern, Luxury and Sport.
There is also the M-Sport package according to the brochure, but I have not seen one on the streets yet. Dunno if it is available on the 335i only, or on all three models.
Quoting Charles79 (Reply 69): - Mazda, mentioned by some as "dying", has sold over 103K cars Jan-Apr, a 21% jump over the previous year. With the new CX-5 hitting dealers now I expect their sales to continue climbing.
There is also a new Mazda6 coming soon, isn't it?
Quoting Charles79 (Reply 69): Truly deserving of the title of "dying" would be Mitsubishi, with only 22K sales (a 22% drop). I used to drive a 1998 Mirage and still hold that car to high standards for its reliability (stayed in the family until 2009 when it was sold to its current owner). Sadly, the Mirage is yesterday's news and today's Lancer can't compete on efficiency, packaging, quality, and value with the Jetta, Focus, Cruze, Elantra, or Corolla. Mitsubishi is also loosing sales due to the lack of a family saloon (Galant) and the Eclipse (production ended last year IIRC). Their new Mirage can't come soon enough to the market.
Sadly, I think Mitsubishi is largely irrelevant in the U.S. these days.
Quoting Charles79 (Reply 79): While I don't necessarily expect more consolidation in the industry, strategic partnership will be the key to ensure that the smaller players can afford the development costs to compete with the VWs, GMs, Fords, and Toyotas of the world. For instance, PSA has been selling Citroen and Peugeot versions of the Mitsubishi Outlander, and this month is introducing to the market the Citroen C4 Aircross based on the ASX.
Agreed. In addition to the Mazda-Alfa Romeo cooperation on a new convertible, Nissan, Renault and Mercedes Benz are collaborating too. Nissan and Renault will eventually use the chassis of the new A-Class and B-Class. The next generation Infiniti G-series is theoretically going to be based on the next generation C-Class too.
Peugeot/Citroen are now collaborating with GM too.
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10456 posts, RR: 20 Reply 89, posted (11 months 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 1580 times:
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 88): Quoting mham001 (Reply 80):
Interesting that both those companies were dumped by Ford.
Which ones? Jaguar Land Rover is one. The other?
I think the reference is to Mazda's various degrees of partnership with Ford. Apparently Ford held a 33% controlling interest in Mazda from 1996 to 2008, and has ratcheted that down to 3% these days, if the article is correct.
poLot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 1497 posts, RR: 0 Reply 90, posted (11 months 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 1535 times:
I'm pretty sure he was referencing Land Rover and Jaguar separately. They weren't always together (Ford purchased Jaguar 10 years before getting a hold of Land Rover), and are one company now because Ford made the decision to sell them together.
mah4546 From Sweden, joined Jan 2001, 31117 posts, RR: 74 Reply 91, posted (11 months 3 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 1471 times:
Quoting srbmod (Reply 77): Quoting mah4546 (Reply 73):
Fiat just hit 4,000 monthly sales in the United States and the 500 is now one of Canada's twenty best-selling nameplates.
I drove past one of the local Fiat dealers here and their inventory had definitely thinned out in recent weeks. I wonder how much of Fiat's North American sales these days are due to the Abarth? There were a lot of folks that were waiting for that version to be available before buying one and there was supposedly a pretty healthy waiting list for them.
Abort production is very limited by factory constraints. Only ~250 can be built per month in Mexico (I assume due to its array of speciality imported components), and the entire 2012 allotment is sold out.
Fiat is a hit, despite a slow launch. I'm just hoping they use this success to expand past just the 500. Fiat Canada has hinted at importing larger models, but not Fiat USA, yet.
Charles79 From Puerto Rico, joined Mar 2007, 1307 posts, RR: 5 Reply 92, posted (11 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1433 times:
Quoting mah4546 (Reply 91): Fiat is a hit, despite a slow launch. I'm just hoping they use this success to expand past just the 500. Fiat Canada has hinted at importing larger models, but not Fiat USA, yet.
I wonder if any other Fiat models would sell well in the US though. Looking at their current offerings we already have the 500, the Sedici (as Suzuki SX4), and the Freemont (as Dodge Journey). The Panda has received very positive accolades in the Euro motoring press but it's a tad small and the engines underpowered for American tastes, while the Linea and Punto would be overshadowed by the Fiesta/Accent/Fit/Yaris/Aveo/etc, models already established here. The only ones I could see here are the 500L and the handsome Bravo, though I suspect that the profit margins on such small cars would not make a business case for the expenses of certifying them for US sale.
On the other hand, I would like to see a combined Fiat/Lancia/Alfa Romeo dealer network in the US. With enough volume we might see a few more Fiats as well as the lovely Lancia Delta, the Alfa Romeo MiTo and Giuletta, and the replacements for the Spider and 159 (Giula?). Alternatively, we could very well end up with the current scenario where only a few models are imported and instead the platforms and technology are used to make cars such as the new Dart that have a wider appeal in the US marketplace.
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 88): Agreed. In addition to the Mazda-Alfa Romeo cooperation on a new convertible, Nissan, Renault and Mercedes Benz are collaborating too. Nissan and Renault will eventually use the chassis of the new A-Class and B-Class. The next generation Infiniti G-series is theoretically going to be based on the next generation C-Class too.
Peugeot/Citroen are now collaborating with GM too.
From a consumer standpoint this is far more preferable than the old-school "badge engineering". By sharing technology and components the manufacturers enjoy the cost savings while still maintaining their unique brand identities and DNA.
poLot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 1497 posts, RR: 0 Reply 93, posted (11 months 3 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1432 times:
Quoting Charles79 (Reply 92): The Panda has received very positive accolades in the Euro motoring press but it's a tad small and the engines underpowered for American tastes, while the Linea and Punto would be overshadowed by the Fiesta/Accent/Fit/Yaris/Aveo/etc, models already established here. The only ones I could see here are the 500L and the handsome Bravo, though I suspect that the profit margins on such small cars would not make a business case for the expenses of certifying them for US sale.
The Panda is expected to come over slightly reworked as a Jeep, although nothing has been officially announced. The 500L is coming here, it was designed with the North American market in mind. The Bravo isn't that small, it is the size of your typical compact car, but it is aging and I don't see them bringing it over as it will just end up competing with the Dart. I agree it would be tough for the Linea and Punto; while Fiat is now enjoying some success here they don't have the "retro cute" look that the 500 has and that many people find charming, and Fiat's dealer network is way to small to take on the established players directly.
Quoting Charles79 (Reply 92): On the other hand, I would like to see a combined Fiat/Lancia/Alfa Romeo dealer network in the US. With enough volume we might see a few more Fiats as well as the lovely Lancia Delta, the Alfa Romeo MiTo and Giuletta, and the replacements for the Spider and 159 (Giula?). Alternatively, we could very well end up with the current scenario where only a few models are imported and instead the platforms and technology are used to make cars such as the new Dart that have a wider appeal in the US marketplace.
You can forget about them ever bringing the Lancia brand here. They barely sell in Europe, they are not going to bother spending the money to launch the brand here. At best you will just see Chrysler branded Lancias. Alfa Romeo is suppose to eventually come, but they have been pushing back when for the better part of a decade now (8C Competizione aside).
KiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 5286 posts, RR: 3 Reply 94, posted (11 months 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 1428 times:
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 88): There is also the M-Sport package according to the brochure, but I have not seen one on the streets yet. Dunno if it is available on the 335i only, or on all three models.
Msport in most couintries is available on all lines and on all engine sizes, even the 316d.
Quoting EddieDude (Reply 88): Not the Cayenne. Do you mean Boxster? Cayenne is an SUV and is nothing like the F-type!
Woops I meant to say Cayman.
Quoting poLot (Reply 90): They weren't always together (Ford purchased Jaguar 10 years before getting a hold of Land Rover), and are one company now because Ford made the decision to sell them together.
During Ford's ownership they merged R&D, purchasing, accounting and most other activities for Jaguar and Land Rover, it would have been a nightmare to separate them so both companies had to be sold as a package.
I would like to see the next-generation Bravo in North America too, but selling the Dodge Dart, the upcoming Chrysler 100, the Alfa Romeo Giulietta and the FIAT Bravo might be segment overkill.
Btw, that is a very nice GTI you have.
Quoting Charles79 (Reply 92): From a consumer standpoint this is far more preferable than the old-school "badge engineering". By sharing technology and components the manufacturers enjoy the cost savings while still maintaining their unique brand identities and DNA.
I agree. Look at the European Ford Ka and the FIAT 500. They could not be any more different.
Quoting poLot (Reply 93): At best you will just see Chrysler branded Lancias.
The plan is to have the same car sold as a Chrysler in some markets, and Lancia in some others.
Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 94): Msport in most couintries is available on all lines and on all engine sizes, even the 316d
Thanks Rob! That is great. We only get the 320i, the 328i and the 335i. No clue if BMW will ever sell the diesel variants in Mexico.
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Actually, the larger LaCrosse is more closer in size to those mid-size models. Do keep in mind that the LaCrosse is Buick's largest sedan only by default; the full-size Lucerne was discontinued with no successor.
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