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What's Your Issue With Paying Tax?  
User currently offlineAA7295 From Australia, joined Aug 2007, 622 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 8 hours ago) and read 2961 times:

After reading much about US citizens renouncing their citizenship to avoid paying US tax abroad, and with all this argument over the proposed Buffet Rule... one has to ask? What's your problem with paying tax?

The money earned by tax is not only used for defense, health care, social security, education, but also is used for items that we (the citizenry as a whole) take for granted such as food stamps, highways and transportation, public defenders to defend you, the FAA, police, fire and ambulance services, and all other elements that give us the modern infrastructure that allow us to go by with our day to day activities.

I think that paying tax is a form of paying it forward for the future generation. If you make money in this country, or have benefited from what this country provides to allow you to make money (super fast internet to get what you need done, roads to get you to where you need to go, bank networks to get access to your money) then you should pay tax.

When I think about these multimillionaires and billionaires who do anything to avoid paying tax, it makes me sick that they are the ones who should be paying taxes but are avoiding it. Are people love for money deeper than paying back society and assisting the future generation?

What are your thoughts?

106 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21654 posts, RR: 55
Reply 1, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 2949 times:

Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):
Are people love for money deeper than paying back society and assisting the future generation?

There are people who couldn't care less about the future of the country if it would save them a few dollars, yes.

I don't really know what people in the US are complaining about. We've got a pretty good tax rate when compared to other developed countries. Yes, the tax code could be simpler (I pay income tax to four entities - that's a paperwork headache and a half that I could do without), but we've got services that need to be paid for and a debt that needs to be paid down, so it is what it is.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 3 hours ago) and read 2879 times:

I think the simple answer to many questions along the line of "Why do people do x,y or z in the US" is that some people just suck. They would suck wherever they lived, but the relatively high level of freedom in America allows those people to suck to the greatest possible degree.

Fortunately there is a solid nucleus of good people who are keeping this train on the rails, who don't make the news or go viral on the internet.


User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7300 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 2 hours ago) and read 2844 times:

Personally I do not think that question stands alone, its mirror image is always there, whats the issue with government spending.
If governments could only spend what they receive in taxes no one would have a problem with paying taxes, because the people would actually have some control and be able to see how their money is spent.
Anyone really know what their national government budget is, how it is spent and where the waste goes, the entire world today is deep in debt yet every school teaches its young to live within their means and only take on debt as a last resort.

A key being touted to solve the worlds current crisis is for more taxes, as in the people paying more, one can debate whether it is the rich needing to pay more or everyone else, but the solution is for more tax income. The poor have never avoided taxes or their consequences, so in the long run, the increased tax revenue will come from increased government spending on the non-rich, the circle continues. One day someone will look at spending from governments, to business to the man in the street, somehow we tend to loose what we learned in school.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8847 posts, RR: 24
Reply 4, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 2833 times:

Oh, boy, here we go.

Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):
Are people love for money deeper than paying back society and assisting the future generation?
Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
There are people who couldn't care less about the future of the country if it would save them a few dollars, yes.
Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 2):
I think the simple answer to many questions along the line of "Why do people do x,y or z in the US" is that some people just suck.

First of all, the initial post mentions people giving up their US citizenship. The people who are doing that for tax purposes are those who A) have dual citizenship, and B) live in another country. They are already paying taxes in the country where they live. What ticks people off is the fact that the US insists that you continue to pay US taxes even though you don't live in the US. The extra-territorial reach of the US tax system is unique among industrialized countries - the only other country I know that does the same was Qaddafi-era Libya, and I have no idea if they still do it.

Taxes should be limited territorially, and should be independent of citizenship. If you live in the US, whatever citizenship you have, you pay US taxes. If you live in France, whatever citizenship you have, you pay French taxes.

Secondly, an important factor is the subjective feeling of whether your taxes are being properly spent. Taxes in Germany or Switzerland are, on average, higher than in the US, but they are much more organized - you get less of a feeling that much of your money is going to buy votes and political favors, which is definitely the case in the US right now. Just the other day my wife got a phone call from the local HHS office. They were asking if anyone in the household would be interested in receiving government benefits, and ran down a list of all the things that would make one eligible. There were a lot. But that is the kind of thing that really irritates a taxpayer like me. The government is actively seeking out people to give money away, presumably to get people hooked, and when elections come around, they hope that people will vote for the party that will keep the gravy train rolling, instead of the party that says that we need to get entitlements under control.

Imagine this: What would federal spending be like if you eliminated from the entitlement roles everyone who really does not need the money - they have other sources of income, or are able-bodied and could get a job but government entitlements pay better. How much would be saved? $100 billion? A trillion?



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineQFA380 From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 2079 posts, RR: 1
Reply 5, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 2825 times:

Same reason many parents don't enjoy paying for ungrateful, lying, belligerent children who think they know best. It's not that they hate it prima facie, its that given a set of circumstances it is not something they want to do.

People like to be able to see what happens with their taxes, they like to see shiny new roads and infrastructure, they like to see low crime and low poverty, they like to have convenient and simple government services such as car registration, they like to not have to spend insane amounts of money and time to sort out their tax every year.

When government turns around and starts lying and treating its citizens like serfs is it not unreasonable for the citizenry to feel some resent towards government? When they cannot see their taxes going to good with with teen pregnancy, poverty, crime sky high, they can't see any of the trillions spent on wars except for the graves and news stories about their countrymen who've come home in body bags. When government is impossible to deal with how than they be expected to gleefully hand over their hard earned money?

And despite the shambles government is in, people know that the government is up to its eyeballs in debt with nothing to show for it, further enslaving their descendants in government servitude.

Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):
After reading much about US citizens renouncing their citizenship to avoid paying US tax abroad,

You've answered your own question. If they're living overseas how can they enjoy:

Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):
health care, social security, education food stamps, highways and transportation, public defenders to defend you, the FAA, police, fire and ambulance services

If you should pay tax to enjoy these services, then if you are not enjoying these services, you should not pay taxes.


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11678 posts, RR: 15
Reply 6, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week ago) and read 2791 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
I don't really know what people in the US are complaining about

There is a small and vocal per centage that believes the only reason we pay taxes is to give to so-called "welfare queens" who, apparently all purchase brand new Escalades and all own 52" flat screen TVs and all play the biggest X-Box/PS3/Wii and all the games. While there are a few like that, there are many, many more who use food stamps and Medicade just to survive.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
What would federal spending be like if you eliminated from the entitlement roles everyone who really does not need the money - they have other sources of income, or are able-bodied and could get a job but government entitlements pay better. How much would be saved? $100 billion? A trillion?

Probably about $2 million. Until they start to get sick again because they can not afford doctor visits and medications because they have been denied for private insurance because of "pre-existing conditions."

Where in the Bible did Jesus ask Lazarus for his private medical insurance? The right claims to be the party of Jesus, so I have to ask. Also, how much profit did Jesus make when He fed the masses and preached the beattitudes?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15749 posts, RR: 27
Reply 7, posted (2 years 4 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2759 times:

Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):
What's your problem with paying tax?

I like money and I like to make sure that as much of my money stays exactly that: mine.

Sure taxes are used for some necessary and useful things to me like defense, police, infrastructure (within reason) and maintaining a legal system. But a lot is thrown away on welfare, flying empty planes around, subsidizing video game companies. As far as I'm concerned that's pure waste. None of that spending helps me and I could just as easily squander it on my own, by say, buying WNBA tickets, investing in an airline, or flushing cash down the toilet.

Quoting par13del (Reply 3):
The poor have never avoided taxes

...they never had to.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
What ticks people off is the fact that the US insists that you continue to pay US taxes even though you don't live in the US. The extra-territorial reach of the US tax system is unique among industrialized countries - the only other country I know that does the same was Qaddafi-era Libya, and I have no idea if they still do it.

Taxes should be limited territorially, and should be independent of citizenship. If you live in the US, whatever citizenship you have, you pay US taxes.

   And then you get into the bullying of foreign banks.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21654 posts, RR: 55
Reply 8, posted (2 years 4 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2749 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
What ticks people off is the fact that the US insists that you continue to pay US taxes even though you don't live in the US.

And that's fair - the US expat tax policy is idiotic, and needs to be changed.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
If you live in the US, whatever citizenship you have, you pay US taxes. If you live in France, whatever citizenship you have, you pay French taxes.

I'd agree, with the exception that if you're living in France as a US citizen but making money in the US, that money (and only that money) should be taxed at US rates.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 6):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
What would federal spending be like if you eliminated from the entitlement roles everyone who really does not need the money - they have other sources of income, or are able-bodied and could get a job but government entitlements pay better. How much would be saved? $100 billion? A trillion?

Probably about $2 million.

Actually, if we started denying Medicare and Social Security to those who were clearly able to cover themselves in their old age, we could save quite a bit. But I'm pretty sure that would never fly politically.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13612 posts, RR: 62
Reply 9, posted (2 years 4 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2732 times:
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I don't have an issue with paying taxes. I have an issue with the perception of others that somehow, I don't pay enough. Particularly when they're not paying as much as I already am.


"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 4024 posts, RR: 28
Reply 10, posted (2 years 4 months 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 2724 times:

Why was I not surprised to see the age bracket of the OP?

Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):
What's your problem with paying tax?
Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):
avoid paying US tax abroad

Well lookie here, seems like you just answered your own question, doesn't it?

Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):
I think that paying tax is a form of paying it forward for the future generation

I think it is a way to subsidize public employees who couldn't get a private sector job if it bit them in the behind. Coming from a country that is now in shambles because decades of government largesse instituted the mentality that the government should provide for everything and people who take risks in the private sector are suckers who should be fleeced out of everything they have, I should know.



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25535 posts, RR: 50
Reply 11, posted (2 years 4 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2708 times:

Here is a problem -- Almost 50% of Americans don't end up paying any Federal Income Tax - up from 12% in 1970s.


So before continuing to chase after the 50% that do pay, and demonizing those that have done well for themselves, how about creating a system where everyone must pay something.

Imo - as a small business owner my tax burden and complexity is getting beyond ridiculous - with multiple levels of local, state and federal taxes. Its simply too easy for every entity involved to raise their rates a few percentage, and before you know it, your taxes have been bumped up 25%, to the point where its almost not worth doing more business, or hiring any added help.
Matter of fact the help I've needed in recent times is not to run the business and generate income, its to help manage and document the complex myriad levels of regulations to keep my nose clean.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8847 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (2 years 4 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2699 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 6):
Probably about $2 million. Until they start to get sick again because they can not afford doctor visits and medications because they have been denied for private insurance because of "pre-existing conditions."
Quote:
As of early 2011, 15% of people lived in a household that received food stamps, 26% had someone enrolled in Medicaid and 2% had a member receiving unemployment benefits. Families doubling up to save money or pool expenses also is likely leading to more multigenerational households. But even without the effects of the recession, there would be a larger reliance on government.

The Census data show that 16% of the population lives in a household where at least one member receives Social Security and 15% receive or live with someone who gets Medicare. There is likely a lot of overlap, since Social Security and Medicare tend to go hand in hand, but those percentages also are likely to increase as the Baby Boom generation ages.
http://blogs.wsj.com/economics/2012/...ves-in-household-getting-benefits/

I personally know a lawyer who made a crapload of money, drove nothing but Cadillacs and lived an a very upscale neighborhood in north Dallas. His house was filled with artwork he collected over the years. But when he got cancer and spent his last 6 months in the hospital, Medicaid ended up paying 100% of his bill, because he never bought insurance.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 6):
Where in the Bible did Jesus ask Lazarus for his private medical insurance? The right claims to be the party of Jesus, so I have to ask. Also, how much profit did Jesus make when He fed the masses and preached the beattitudes?

Where did Jesus demand from Lazarus' neighbors that they should pay for Lazarus' care, and be subject to imprisonment if they did not? Christ taught that you should help of your own free will. Being forced to do so (and taxes are forced) has no meaning in terms of a virtuous act.

Quoting Mir (Reply 8):
I'd agree, with the exception that if you're living in France as a US citizen but making money in the US, that money (and only that money) should be taxed at US rates.

Agree absolutely. Tax territoriality means taxing revenue where it occurs.

Quoting Mir (Reply 8):
Actually, if we started denying Medicare and Social Security to those who were clearly able to cover themselves in their old age, we could save quite a bit. But I'm pretty sure that would never fly politically.

It's not that they should get nothing, but it should basically be enough to keep you off the streets, and little more. I agree that the social security payroll tax limit at $105K or whatever it is should be lifted, even eliminated, but the rate reduced.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39898 posts, RR: 74
Reply 13, posted (2 years 4 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 2681 times:

Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):
Are people love for money deeper than paying back society and assisting the future generation?


Future generations? That money is already gone. The US is now over $16TRILLION in debt and our current President is spending 8 times what they bring in from taxes. Also 50% do NOT pay taxes!
You talk a lot about "greed" when a lot of the anti-rich sentiment is motivated by ENVY.
Envy is just as bad, if not worse than greed.
Also much of our tax dollars is being wasted abroad which is why many people have a negative opinion of the United States.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
B) live in another country. They are already paying taxes in the country where they live.


  

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 4):
Taxes should be limited territorially, and should be independent of citizenship. If you live in the US, whatever citizenship you have, you pay US taxes. If you live in France, whatever citizenship you have, you pay French taxes.


  

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 5):
You've answered your own question. If they're living overseas how can they enjoy:


  

Quoting seb146 (Reply 6):
There is a small and vocal per centage that believes the only reason we pay taxes is to give to so-called "welfare queens" who, apparently all purchase brand new Escalades and all own 52" flat screen TVs and...


You have an incredible imagination but the person you speak of only has a 5 year cap on welfare. Getting knocked up by multiple man and collecting child support from multiple men has replaced welfare.
President Clinton passed welfare reform which ended lifelong welfare.
The welfare queens of today would be companies like General Electric which paid NO taxes and their CEO is Obama's jobs czar who exported thousands of jobs from the US to China and even got tax returns despite record profits. Same for Pepco Holdings, PG&E, Atmos Energy just to name a few.
There are a whole lot more companies that can be classified as "welfare queens".

Then of course there is all the government waste - most of which goes out as foreign aid to countries that don't even like us or even need the money.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 7):
And then you get into the bullying of foreign banks.


...and that really burns me up! Many countries already have bank privacy laws that forbids releasing private banking information.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):
Here is a problem -- Almost 50% of Americans don't end up paying any Federal Income Tax - up from 12% in 1970s.



If we just simply had a 10% flat-tax for everyone, this problem would be solved.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 12):
Where did Jesus demand from Lazarus' neighbors that they should pay for Lazarus' care, and be subject to imprisonment if they did not?


  



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinebabybus From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (2 years 4 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2670 times:

I resent paying tax.

Not only does the government take nearly 40% of my salary in various taxes, I also have to pay around 30% tax on most things I buy. Then the local council wants 10% of what I earn for their various taxes.

When I see all the people on the train everyday going to work, and think of the millions of people in the UK I wonder why any govenment needs that amount of tax? It's not like we see it being wisely spent.


User currently onlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8568 posts, RR: 2
Reply 15, posted (2 years 4 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2663 times:

The issue is not paying tax. The issue is that people who earn a lot tend to be very analytical about their own earning vs. spending. "We" run a tight ship.

The government on the other hand... is a dysfunctional, corrupt lost cause. Philanthropy is one thing; outright destruction of human achievement is another thing. Our government primarily exists now to enrich government contractors and employees. The quarry is our children and today's working affluent. As somebody in the business world, I have some limited perspective on how, and why, this occurs. It does not make me want to essentially lose all my money so my (rich) neighbor can profit even more off the government's sclerotic hobbling. I honestly hope for a revolution. We *could* become more socialist than Sweden and still have money left over, *if* we shed this whale of corruption.

If not, I could easily see myself leaving. I am young enough. My family has not been in the USA forever and will not necessarily remain here forever.


User currently offlinevegetables2001 From UK - England, joined Mar 2012, 93 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 4 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2638 times:

Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):
I think that paying tax is a form of paying it forward for the future generation

This quote is so utterly ironic, in the EU and US the present tax payers are doing anything else BUT paying ANYTHING forward to the future generations. The entitlement culture that is so endemic in western citizens at present as going to burden future generations to a frightening extent.

It's equally ironic that the politicians on the left like Obama who wished people paid higher taxes are the ones most guilty of placing the burden on future generations.

I personally have no problems in paying tax at all for: foreign aid for 3rd world countries, people made redundant, the sick, the good education of the young, some form of armed service, pubic transport, public sanitation, etc.. etc.. etc..

What I have a problem with is paying taxes for:

Healthcare for people with chronic healthy lifestyles.
Funding generations and generations of welfare junkies.
Prestige obsolete military projects like Trident replacements
Funding pointless foreign wars fought so our idiot politicians can bum up whichever idiot is the POTUS ATM.
Funding foreign regimes that can afford nuclear weapons and space programs.
Bailing out failed banks.
Funding prestige sporting events.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 6):
Where in the Bible did Jesus ask Lazarus for his private medical insurance?

However if Lazarus was a breast cancer patient in the US (survival rate 85%) he'd have a much greater survival rate than the UK(74%)



A306,319,333 ATR72 BAC113/5, B703/704,717,721,732/3/4/5/7/8,741/1/4,757,763,773/E, DC8-6,9-3/5,10-30, DC106
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8847 posts, RR: 24
Reply 17, posted (2 years 4 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2623 times:

Quoting vegetables2001 (Reply 16):
Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):
I think that paying tax is a form of paying it forward for the future generation

This quote is so utterly ironic, in the EU and US the present tax payers are doing anything else BUT paying ANYTHING forward to the future generations.

Ain't that the truth. How can Liberals get away with saying that they are investing in the future? Investing is what happens when you pay money now in order to get a benefit later. We are getting the benefits now (entitlements, government-funded businesses that are otherwise unsustainable etc), and telling our children and grandchildren to pay the bill. That's the complete opposite of investment.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 10):
Why was I not surprised to see the age bracket of the OP?

LOL, I didn't notice that. Just goes to show what young people are learning these days.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7919 posts, RR: 52
Reply 18, posted (2 years 4 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2599 times:

I wouldn't have as much of a problem if the government didn't throw so much of my money away. It's ridiculous, I'd feel better burning the money than having it being wasted on some of the stuff the government spends money on


Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinevegetables2001 From UK - England, joined Mar 2012, 93 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 4 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2578 times:

This is pretty much the whole crux of the economic/politic divide: Should the state spend the money or should the individual? Debates over issues just fluff in the long run, this is by far the most important debate and I think the next few years will decide the future of the western world economically.

As I have never seen politicians or the state run anything well I'm afraid I have to go down on the individual side.

It just show what a bunch of political pygmies we have at the moment that they distract the population with issues such as gay marriage - makes me want to weep,



A306,319,333 ATR72 BAC113/5, B703/704,717,721,732/3/4/5/7/8,741/1/4,757,763,773/E, DC8-6,9-3/5,10-30, DC106
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8847 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (2 years 4 months 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2495 times:

Quoting vegetables2001 (Reply 19):
As I have never seen politicians or the state run anything well I'm afraid I have to go down on the individual side.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21654 posts, RR: 55
Reply 21, posted (2 years 4 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2489 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 11):
Here is a problem -- Almost 50% of Americans don't end up paying any Federal Income Tax - up from 12% in 1970s.


So before continuing to chase after the 50% that do pay, and demonizing those that have done well for themselves, how about creating a system where everyone must pay something.

Or how about we work on decreasing the income inequality so that the poor get richer and can start falling into higher tax brackets? That'll be far more productive long-term than just taxing the lower ends of the income scale more because it makes people feel better.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 22, posted (2 years 4 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2488 times:

Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):
What's your problem with paying tax?

Because it's taken by force. I loathe violence, it is the tool of brutes, not of the civilized.

Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):
I think that paying tax is a form of paying it forward for the future generation.

Right now, most governments are putting future generations at risk with the massive amounts of debt they are pilling up.

Quoting AA7295 (Thread starter):
If you make money in this country, or have benefited from what this country provides to allow you to make money (super fast internet to get what you need done, roads to get you to where you need to go, bank networks to get access to your money) then you should pay tax.

Government gets in the way of these things, it does not help their development.

[Edited 2012-05-27 16:34:53]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21654 posts, RR: 55
Reply 23, posted (2 years 4 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2478 times:

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 22):
I loathe violence, it is the tool of brutes, not of the civilized.

Getting things without paying for them is hardly civilized either.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8964 posts, RR: 39
Reply 24, posted (2 years 4 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2475 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 23):
Getting things without paying for them is hardly civilized either.

I am not the one who has a problem with that statement. . . unless it's a gift, then I have no problem with it.

[Edited 2012-05-27 16:45:36]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
25 LAXintl : Sure let people go out get educated, work hard, invent things, and strike it rich. I'm all for that. However the government mandated Robin Hood like
26 Post contains links and images Dreadnought : I put it to you that that is the best argument for government to butt out. Here is a map of the GINI index, which is an indicator of the inequality a
27 Post contains links and images Dreadnought : So I take it that we should end all income redistribution-style entitlements? I'm surprised you think so.
28 StarAC17 : While that sounds great in theory then the taxes that an individual paid into Medicare and Social security should be refunded to an individual who is
29 Mir : Really? Because without taxes, government services could not effectively be paid for. What punishment? For all the talk about raising taxes on the we
30 par13del : I guess you have not been paying much attention to the states, a fair number of them have balanced budget amendments, additionally, when their tax re
31 StarAC17 : Loopholes exist for a reason and they are put there by lobbyists for the people and corporations that use them. The reason that the US tax system isn
32 Dreadnought : Yes, and it is the job of government officials (elected or not) to say no. If a law applies to one industry or company, it should apply for all. I re
33 tugger : Generally my issues are: 1.) Not everyone pays tax. 2.) Those that pay the most think it is "not fair". Those that don't pay any think it is OK. 3.) W
34 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : Couldn't have said it any better. Few people point out that both sides are playing this game
35 Dreadnought : Which is how the Tea Party got started and why they managed to boot out some long-standing GOP stalwarts known to play such games, such as Dick Luger
36 StarAC17 : You likely do in the US as well but it will go to your municipality or your state, its not going to the feds. If a congressman says no, then the comp
37 StarAC17 : I know this but just because you have a BBA doesn't make you efficient but it is a good starting point, sometimes a deficit makes sense. The biggest
38 stratosphere : I do not have a problem paying taxes if the government was using out taxpayer dollars effectively. There is SO much waste that is my problem.. Also ev
39 Pyrex : What is the total value of all the free airtime and media exposure Obama gets from a complicit media?
40 tugger : There is no "complicit media". There is only "free media". Unless you feel there should be a "fairness doctrine" imposed? You do realize that the Pre
41 mt99 : How much? You tell us. You must know, right? Why else would you make a statement like this if you do not. So .. please.. tell us..
42 Post contains images StarAC17 : I could say the same about the berating the same man receives on AM radio?? I'm sure you have a real problem with that
43 ikramerica : Simple. Study the givernment pension system in the state of California and you will see why we resent it here. The state is now looking to create a ne
44 FlyPNS1 : Here's the real problem. The average CEO in the 1970's made about 40x what the average worker did. Today, the average CEO makes about 300x what the a
45 Post contains links Dreadnought : You suggest that non-capitalist societies do not suffer from the same problem. As I have worked extensively in communist countries such as Vietnam, a
46 Flighty : That kind of thing makes me, well, not homicidal, but almost. It's absolute enslavement. It is a civil rights issue. My kids should not be indebted t
47 LAXintl : Thats not a problem. Its simply supply vs demand in a free market. Each job in the free market has a value. There are millions upon millions that can
48 Mir : Do Scandinavian governments have less power, less authority and less money? Yet you held them up earlier as examples of how to do it better. -Mir
49 Dreadnought : Because for some reason - take your pick - smaller country, older more established culture, better natural organization, whatever, Scandenavians seem
50 okie : Entitlements cost 2.5T per year, tax revenue is 2.4T per year. That does not include the cost of running the government or infrastructure, defence or
51 Mir : A couple of major problems with that. For one, going by what's come out of various state legislatures recently (and further back than that), I don't
52 Dreadnought : That's another problem that's being ignored. Ever since Obama came into office and the treasury started having trouble selling T-Bills, the Fed has b
53 Mir : That's not very comforting - sometimes you need to deficit spend. Especially if you're suddenly going to start taking on a whole lot more financial o
54 Post contains images par13del : In terms of checks and balances, these are federal programs that the country may want to continue, the states have the feds backing as well as overse
55 Flighty : That's kind of like saying, I avoid car accidents by, first, stopping time. Then to escape danger, I levitate high above the crash and sprite on a pi
56 Mir : If the federal oversight is good, then that would be an option. But I hear a lot more about getting the federal government out of things entirely. No
57 Post contains images par13del : Only where money is concerned, their investigators are pretty good at identifying waste, corruption, the state of failed projects, overbudgets, fault
58 FlyPNS1 : And their less progressive tax structure is directly a result of their more equal incomes. The problem is that in the U.S., we have a massive populat
59 seb146 : Ages? Are those who receive SS able to care for themselves? So that is not a true 15% and 16%. So, screw everyone. And that will get you into heaven.
60 tugger : Yes, sadly we have Republican's to thank for that. During the tax revisions of Reagan's time the lowest ~50% of income earners were removed from the
61 Pyrex : Wrong. Not true. It is just that there are so many people that are living on the government dole that "taxing" them is easy - if I say I will give yo
62 flipdewaf : WHAT!?! I think this may be a deliberately misleading statement based around the fact that some money paid that is taken in taxes will (in laymans te
63 Flighty : What he said is right. Government gets money from 2 sources: (1) printing money (2) collecting taxes from the private sector. Collecting income from
64 Dreadnought : You are of course correct. This is why in accounting, all inter-company transactions are eliminated. And this basic concept is something that sociali
65 flipdewaf : I agree with that but what I was having a go at was the way in which it was phrased, like somehow public sector workers were corrupt. Fred
66 Dreadnought : No, they are not corrupt. But they (understandably) look out for their own financial best interests, especially since they have been allowed to union
67 flipdewaf : Although this has diverged off topic here, there is a very bisic assumption that government should be as small as possible, it should be the right si
68 FlyPNS1 : So air traffic control has no value? Clean air has no value? Safe medications have no value? Protecting our country has no value?
69 Dreadnought : I'm not saying it provides no benefit. The issue is that in macroeconomic terms, if the government can run the FAA ATC function for $1 billion employ
70 windy95 : As has been stated they are trying to avoid double taxation. Buffet is a hypocrite. Do not have a problem with all taxes. One of the few powers our f
71 par13del : Possible a perfect example of the way forward, are there any federal schools in the US? No question the eductaion system has not been up to par, but
72 seb146 : I would point out that, under Clinton, taxes were lowered on the poor and raised on the wealthy and we all did so much better. Of course, we didn't h
73 Dreadnought : And under Bush, he eliminated nearly the bottom 50% from the tax roles, while only marginally cutting taxes for the wealthy. Considering how you have
74 Post contains images AM744 : In my neck of the woods only 50% or so of the workforce pays taxes and they only get you mostly poor public services. Most of the people that actuall
75 Mir : I'd think the Tea Party would have a fit. I know Norquist would. -Mir
76 Dreadnought : Some will. But I am a Tea Party member and I would not. One of the things that tee's us off is the fact that you have nearly half the country not pay
77 Mir : How much would you want? And then how much would it cost in order to appropriately enforce that? And are you going to be spending more on enforcing t
78 FlyPNS1 : Or they'll want even more from the government. If you raise taxes on the poor/middle class, they'll likely demand more benefits...not less. The probl
79 Dreadnought : The Clinton era lowest rate was 15%, and started at a lower income level. You have claimed that you liked the Clinton tax rates, so how can you compl
80 Mir : There are still going to be people who don't make enough to get into that lowest bracket. You said you wanted to tax everyone, so my question still s
81 Post contains links and images Dreadnought : According to the IRS website, if you made more than $400 last year, you have to file. 15% on that (of course you have the standard deduction that wou
82 Mir : If the problem is that only 50% of the population is paying taxes, I find it hard to believe that those people are making less than $400 a year. I kn
83 Dreadnought : Where did anyone say that they make $400 a year? That's simply the threshold that the government says you have to file.
84 Mir : You said that anyone making over $400 has to file, and then 15% of that should get paid in tax. That would seem to imply that currently, if someone i
85 seb146 : I wonder if that figure includes children (who pay no taxes) those on Social Security (who pay no taxes) and homeless (who pay no taxes).
86 Pyrex : Precisely the opposite - to be able to pay a worker a net salary of $100 it costs the government exactly $100, while it would cost any private employ
87 flipdewaf : So what would be the solution to this (if indeed it needs one)? Would you have the government outsource education and pay a company who then run scho
88 Pyrex : You have to be kidding... All taxes collected from employees in the public sector should go, dollar for dollar, to reduce taxes paid by employees in
89 Dreadnought : No, the $400 limit is when you have to start filing. You don't actually start paying any tax at all until you hit about $9K. If you make less then $4
90 flipdewaf : Pick whatever number you like, the government do have to provide services and they cost. The government decide that they are going to provide service
91 seb146 : I know many of you hate me being partisan about this but I really have to point something out: GWB lowered taxes on everyone AND handed out money AND
92 Post contains links and images Dreadnought : Let's not exaggerate. The cost of the wars were a pittance compared to entitlement spending. http://shadow.foreignpolicy.com/post...5/22/obama_s_lega
93 windy95 : This is for people who file returns. How about we remove the Governement totally.
94 Dreadnought : To be specific, it is based on the number of households.
95 seb146 : Does your pretty little graph there include no-bid contracts and the hundreds of billions of dollars in wasted military spending like ships that don'
96 Dreadnought : Of course they are included. Why wouldn't they be? Ah, if you are going to take that perverted line of reasoning (expressed by Nancy Pelosi as I reca
97 geezer : [quote=Mir,reply=29]While that sounds great in theory, you've got a whole generation of people paying into Medicare and Social Security who are unlike
98 zippyjet : I know with me and sadly I'm not in that Mitt Romney 1% $$$ class but what gets my goat is my tax money going to bullshit such as censor boards, frivo
99 FlyPNS1 : Almost everyone will need Medicare except for the very wealthy. No one will provide Medical insurance to the elderly unless they are able to pay out
100 Dreadnought : That's going to happen. The US economy is like a morphine addict. Morphine is a wonderful drug that has saved many lives, if used only when absolutel
101 FlyPNS1 : But Mitt Romney certainly won't do this. The only way to cut entitlement programs in this timeframe (5-10 years) by this much is to cut Medicare/SS b
102 Darksnowynight : Stop right there. How on earth is that different to what happens when private citizens use public funds to seek medical treatment? It isn't, that's h
103 Post contains images zippyjet : Of course both sides (parties) have their pet projects, supporters, people and interests so pork barrel spending gets funnelled toward these. Especia
104 par13del : So you end up with a self fulling prophecy, where government needs governmemt spending to survive. A number of smaller countries have this same dilem
105 mirrodie : You asked "What's Your Issue With Paying Tax?" Can't say I have a problem with paying taxes. I do take great offense at watching my dollars being piss
106 ikramerica : It would be a start, wouldn't it? I'm not in favor of the ridiculous CEO compensation, nor the way it is worked to be in the form of capital gains vs
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