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Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.  
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26520 posts, RR: 58
Posted (1 year 11 months 3 hours ago) and read 5442 times:

The BBC are running a documentary on this disgusting racism in Ukraine . The Euro 2012 is going to be overshadowed by this and makes you wonder why on earth they were allowed to stage it in the first place.

Sol Campbell warning on Euro 2012 racism

Former England captain Sol Campbell told BBC Panorama's Chris Rogers that he fears for the safety of football fans travelling to Euro 2012.

Mr Campbell questioned the decision of Uefa, European football's governing body, to award the tournament to joint hosts Ukraine and Poland after seeing footage taken by the programme that shows racist and anti-Semitic chanting in the terraces and an attack on a group of Asian students that took place in Ukraine.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18237932

A more disturbing video :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18233736


AEGEAN-OLYMPIC AIR - ΟΛΥΜΠΙΑΚΗ " μέλος στη Star Alliance
91 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3505 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (1 year 11 months 2 hours ago) and read 5414 times:

UEFA is all about money and the could not care less about things like human rights, equality etc. I'm surprised that Sol Campbell only discovered that now.

Having said that you also must keep things in perspective. Just because there are some shameful racist groups in Ukraine or in Poland should not be a reason "not to travel to those countries". Those minority extreme groups do not reflect the opinions and beliefs of millions of people in both Poland and Ukraine.


User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5599 posts, RR: 20
Reply 2, posted (1 year 11 months 2 hours ago) and read 5411 times:

Quoting OA260 (Thread starter):

Former England captain Sol Campbell told BBC Panorama's Chris Rogers that he fears for the safety of football fans travelling to Euro 2012.

The English complaining about football violence? Gotta love the irony of that.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26520 posts, RR: 58
Reply 3, posted (1 year 11 months 2 hours ago) and read 5394 times:

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 2):
The English complaining about football violence? Gotta love the irony of that.

The British have done a lot to combat racism and violence over the years and that's even recognised by Black players and others of ethnic backgrounds. What we see in Ukraine is Police ignoring the violence and trying to say there are no issues in the stands. Mean while Nazi salutes and monkey noises are common place at Ukrainian football matches and as you see in the videos non whites are physically attacked in broad daylight.

Anyone that doesn't think that is disgusting is either blind or supporting the racists.



AEGEAN-OLYMPIC AIR - ΟΛΥΜΠΙΑΚΗ " μέλος στη Star Alliance
User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3505 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (1 year 11 months 2 hours ago) and read 5375 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 3):
Anyone that doesn't think that is disgusting is either blind or supporting the racists.

We do think it is disgusting.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39478 posts, RR: 75
Reply 5, posted (1 year 11 months 1 hour ago) and read 5317 times:

Quoting OA260 (Thread starter):



I brought up this very topic several years ago here in this forum and was flamed by some for doing so. I'm surprised by how oblivious people are to what is going on in Eastern Europe. Events such as soccer/football games in Eastern European cities draws attention to this very topic.
This is a problem all throughout Eastern Europe and I'm surprised at how many people in Western Europe are unaware of what's going on there. The soccer/football player in the video is absolutely correct when he advises against non-Whites from travelling to the Ukraine to see this ballgame. Yes their lives will be in jeopardy.
Many people and authorities will deny and pretend the problem doesn't exist. When someone get's killed, they'll make an excuse as if it's the victims fault.



Nazi/Skinhead Killings On Rise In Russia (by Superfly Sep 12 2006 in Non Aviation)#1



Hitler's B-day; Immigrants On Lockdown In Russia (by Superfly Apr 19 2007 in Non Aviation)?threadid=1590979&searchid=1596103&s=Skinhead+Russia#menu27

Quoting OA260 (Reply 3):
Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 2):
The English complaining about football violence? Gotta love the irony of that.

The British have done a lot to combat racism and violence over the years and that's even recognised by Black players and others of ethnic backgrounds.


  
The drunken British hooligans don't pick their fights against people because of their skin color and the drunken Brit hooligans aren't a reflection of the attitudes of the British as a whole. The Eastern European hooligans on the other-hand...



OA260;
Here is a short documentary on the situation in Eastern Europe. Although they focus on Russia, it's the same situation in the Ukraine and other Eastern European nations.

Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j59BiLwdNO8
Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuOVgx3Zh6E&feature=related


Just look at what goes on at these football games in Eastern Europe;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSE0zp51SFE

Quoting Danny (Reply 1):
Those minority extreme groups do not reflect the opinions and beliefs of millions of people in both Poland and Ukraine.



That may be true and many Polish, Russian and Ukrainians are wonderful people but this 'minority' of extremist is rather large and they do not have the ability to stop or control the situation. As you can see, there are hundreds of youtube clips of skinheads themselves beating up and killing people. Yet people just look on or keep walking and the police have no control over the situation.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2315 posts, RR: 21
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 5178 times:

I know a guy from Benin who has lived in Ukraine for 12 years. He told me that as long as you stick to the center of the city, there is no problem. And by the way, I see many orthodox jews in Boryspil airport everytime I am there. Not defending Ukraine in any way though, and racism and anti semitism should never be tolerated.

[Edited 2012-05-28 13:57:45]

User currently onlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3613 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5123 times:

Rampant racism and anti-semitism, while very bad, is not the most worrying issue that comes to mind when thinking of the Ukraine.
I tend to worry more about the tightening political turn towards an extreme-right authoritative regime, one which does encourage (or at least does not hamper) violent xenophobia, censors the media and emprisons political opponents for no good reasons.
Another former soviet country whose transition to democracy didn't go as it should...



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39478 posts, RR: 75
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5118 times:

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 6):
I know a guy from Benin who has lived in Ukraine for 12 years. He told me that as long as you stick to the center of the city, there is no problem.


Is he white? You may want to talk to someone who is Asian, African, Arab, Indian or Latino about their experience in an Eastern European city. They will most definitely have something different to say.

Apparently the city center isn't safe either;
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25642116...ukraine-grapples-rise-hate-crimes/

Nigerian medical student George Itoro Ebong says he was waiting for a bus in central Kiev last year when three young men ran up, shouted racially charged insults at him and smashed a bottle over his head.


Even high ranking diplomats aren't even safe.

http://articles.latimes.com/2005/mar/02/world/fg-briefs2.5

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 6):
And by the way, I see many orthodox jews in Boryspil airport everytime I am there.


They're white Europeans and many are originally from the Ukraine.
The airport is going to be safe. You don't know what precautions they take once they leave the airport.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39478 posts, RR: 75
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 5093 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 7):
Rampant racism and anti-semitism, while very bad, is not the most worrying issue that comes to mind when thinking of the Ukraine.
I tend to worry more about the tightening political turn towards an extreme-right authoritative regime, one which does encourage (or at least does not hamper) violent xenophobia, censors the media and emprisons political opponents for no good reasons.
Another former soviet country whose transition to democracy didn't go as it should...



I had this same exact conversation with a very liberal friend of mine from Germany who is a journalist. He was insisting that this is all Putin's fault and I was telling him that he was wrong. Some of the most vocal anti-Putin forces are indeed the racist nationalist, skinheads that do not want non-whites in their country. He couldn't accept that these nationalist were on the same side as him in wanting to get rid of Putin. The lack of exposure of this issue even among media folks is disturbing.
For a non-white person visiting Eastern Europe, they're going to be more concerned about their immediate safety than censorship and internal politics.
Hosting an international soccer event in the Ukraine, Russia or any Eastern European country is a really stupid idea.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13047 posts, RR: 78
Reply 10, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 5006 times:

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 2):
The English complaining about football violence? Gotta love the irony of that.

Anyone who makes as much as a racist chant once and gets heard is liable to get ejected from the ground, could be arrested and charged. Clubs who are not seen to make a serious effort to clamp down on it face sanction. Players who do it face serious trouble too, Fact. Not whatever went on 25-30 years ago. Meanwhile Sepp Dietrich, I mean Blatter, thinks it's OK for any on field protagonists to shake hands. The well documented English efforts to stamp this sort of thing out are never going to be taken serious by that old crook because, well it's the English who are doing it and leading the way, he'll resent that.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):
The drunken British hooligans don't pick their fights against people because of their skin color and the drunken Brit hooligans aren't a reflection of the attitudes of the British as a whole. The Eastern European hooligans on the other-hand...

English hooligans are likely to be middle aged with large beer bellies so less able to evade the police! Since they were doing it in the 1970's and 80's, if they are allowed to travel at all, having a record of hooliganism can and has lead to travel banning orders.
There might be a few younger ones around, but just a few, mostly in-breds from small towns supporting small clubs.


User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3505 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 5001 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):
Here is a short documentary on the situation in Eastern Europe. Although they focus on Russia, it's the same situation in the Ukraine and other Eastern European nations.

Please avoid generalizations like that. This is simply not true. It's like saying that in UK and Ireland they are murdering Eastern Europens because there were a couple of incidents like that:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0326/breaking51.html

Btw: Have you noticed the anti - Polish campaign in Holland that led to setting up a house of polish immigrants on fire?

Quoting Danny (Reply 4):
Quoting Danny (Reply 1):
Those minority extreme groups do not reflect the opinions and beliefs of millions of people in both Poland and Ukraine.



That may be true and many Polish, Russian and Ukrainians are wonderful people but this 'minority' of extremist is rather large

How large? A few thousand? 20 thousand? Maybe. But there is 36 million of us in Poland. Again you need to keep things in perspective.


User currently offlinecedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 7945 posts, RR: 54
Reply 12, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4992 times:

Ukraine is an odd mix. I actually really enjoy my visits there, because it feels very different to the rest of Europe - although many of the things that make it exotic to a visitor make it hard to live in, eg it's poor and crumbly with creaking infrastructure. The city that most closely matches Kiev in my experience is probably Tehran - big and teeming and polluted, functioning but a million miles from Dusseldorf.

The trouble I've encountered there has always been with police, not civilians. A friend of mine was shaken down for EUR50 for "not carrying ID" - trumped up nonsense. The next night, I was walking with a friend and we were stopped by two cops who were extremely threatening, tried to shake us down for some cash as well. Later that evening another pair of cops followed us in a way that made us uncomfortable. Finally, on a taxi ride, we were stopped for "speeding" (I don't think we were) and our driver put a large note of Ukrainian Hrievna inside his driving license, cop pocketed the cash and let us go. The trouble with that kind of corruption is, the first step to stamping it out is double wages for the police. Since Ukraine is extremely poor, the price is simply too high and it's much easier for the government to keep paying a pittance and let the system take care of the rest. But while that goes on, the society will never improve.

Then there's the awful tale of Yulia Tymoshenko. No other European nation rigs elections so blatantly, then imprisons the ex prime minister. Shameful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yulia_Tymoshenko

Hopefully the baleful glare of the spotlight will help Ukraine clean up it's act - cos there's a lot to like: lots of history, wide open skies, Pripyat (if a preview of the end of the world is your thing), beautiful music, beautiful girls, Odessa, the Crimea, etc etc.



fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39478 posts, RR: 75
Reply 13, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 4989 times:

Quoting Danny (Reply 11):
Please avoid generalizations like that.


What generalizations?

Quoting Danny (Reply 11):
Again you need to keep things in perspective.


And I did put things in to perspective but it sounds like you're denying the problem exist.
If you've watched any of the clips and read the articles you can see it's a severe problem. I'm sure you are well aware of the problem but like many, turn a blind eye to it.

As GDB pointed out, acts of inciting racial violence in the UK carries serious consequences. That is not the case in Eastern Europe. As rowdy as the British may be, you would NEVER see those kinds of chants in a football stadium in the UK in this day & age.

BTW, I have a friend that works for the US State Department and lived in Poland for a few years. It was not safe for her husband who is Chinese to roam freely throughout Poland by himself. They faced all sorts of discrimination from some of the locals.
I understand that you're ashamed of this problem in your country but to deny it seems like you support some of these views.
No one said everyone in Eastern Europe holds these beliefs but the problem is serious in many of the fmr. Communist Eastern European countries.

[Edited 2012-05-28 23:19:57]


Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2315 posts, RR: 21
Reply 14, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4969 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 8):


No he is black. Thats why I mentioned him.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26520 posts, RR: 58
Reply 15, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 4934 times:

Quoting Danny (Reply 11):
This is simply not true. It's like saying that in UK and Ireland they are murdering Eastern Europens because there were a couple of incidents like that:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0326/breaking51.html

Something very rare in Ireland and not comparable to hundreds of nazi racist football fans in Poland/Ukraine/Russia etc... Its a culture change that needs to happen and it needs to come from the corrupt Police and the leaders of the countries involved. Sadly there is no will to do it and they dont care.

Big difference between isolated racist incidents in the UK and Ireland and huge organised racist beatings that are ''allowed'' to become the norm in the above countries. Rather than point the finger to others one needs to accept the problem they have. The worst thing than the nazi/racists is those that say '' oh look what they do in the UK and Ireland'' Thus denying the serious problem .



AEGEAN-OLYMPIC AIR - ΟΛΥΜΠΙΑΚΗ " μέλος στη Star Alliance
User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3505 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 4899 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 15):
Something very rare in Ireland

I remember there was also a case of a Latvian man bitten to death by Dublin airport, incidents of houses of polish immigrants being arsoned in Belfast etc. Not so rare as you want to believe it.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 15):
Big difference between isolated racist incidents in the UK and Ireland and huge organised racist beatings that are ''allowed'' to become the norm in the above countries.

I am not aware of any huge organized racist beatings in Poland neither anything like that is allowed here. These incidents happen but are as rare as the ones I pointed out in Ireland. I speak that only for Poland, not so sure about Ukraine or Russia.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 15):
Thus denying the serious problem .

I haven't denied anything in fact admitted these are disgraceful incidents -read reply 4. On the other side you have just denied the problem exist in Ireland yet it was exactly the same type of incidents.


On another note if you wish to know more about problems related to football hooligans in Poland - the real problem is not so much racism as involvment of football hooligans in organized crime i.e drug dealing. That is real issue and it is being tackled - yesterday 42 hools were arrested and most of them have been charged with drug dealing and membership of organized crime organization.
Link - polish only
http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomos...narkotykami.html?lokale=trojmiasto

[Edited 2012-05-29 03:25:05]

User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26520 posts, RR: 58
Reply 17, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4858 times:

Quoting Danny (Reply 16):
I remember there was also a case of a Latvian man bitten to death by Dublin airport, incidents of houses of polish immigrants being arsoned in Belfast etc. Not so rare as you want to believe it.

Again not the trend here and a small minority of thugs who are not supported by the majority. I can see why you are doing it though to try to deny the problem that exists in Poland but you really need to wake up and accept the fact there is a problem otherwise nothing will change. It may be a tough pill to swallow but it needs to be done and denial is the worst thing .

When anything like that here happens its on all the TV programs and the majority are sickened about it and these people are brought to justice by the Police ! They don't deny the problem as do some Police forces in the above mentioned countries.

Quoting Danny (Reply 16):
I am not aware of any huge organized racist beatings in Poland neither anything like that is allowed here.

POLISH FOOTBALL'S RACISM PROBLEM

Racism may never be fully eradicated from football, but what I found during an investigation into the problem in Poland was truly shocking.

And this in the country that will co-host the 2012 European Football Championship.

I found racism that was strident and in your face in a way it never was in Britain, even in the very bad old days of English football in the 1970s and 80s.

Then, as one of the regular football reporters at the Sunday Times, I spent my Saturdays at football matches and had several first-hand experiences of racism.

Much of it was very unpleasant. But in Poland it was on a different, deeper and much nastier level.

http://www.nigdywiecej.org/index.php...m_content&task=view&id=791

----

True Poles ??

Football: 'Clown' Tomaszewski under fire for racism

(WARSAW) - Iconic former Poland goalkeeper Jan Tomaszewski is under fire for a tirade against players in the Euro 2012 host nation's squad who were born or raised abroad.

The 1974 World Cup hero, now a lawmaker with Poland's conservative opposition, has repeatedly faced criticism for such outbursts.

"I don't want to see the White Eagles' shirt worn by Frenchmen and Germans who've already played for France and Germany, didn't make it in their own national team and are taking away slots from our own, true Poles," Tomaszewski told Poland's Radio Zet.

http://www.eubusiness.com/news-eu/racism-fbl-euro-pol.gfl

This was highlighted back in 2008 also when the concerns over 2012 were raised :

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1821189/bbc_poland_football_racism/

Quoting Danny (Reply 16):
On the other side you have just denied the problem exist in Ireland yet it was exactly the same type of incidents.

Didn't say the problem didn't exist in Ireland the issues we have here are on a much smaller scale and dealt with severely. Remember I'm an immigrant myself here ! Please don't pick and choose to suit your argument. I have 5 Nigerian colleagues at work and they feel totally safe here and don't encounter racism because we have had this same discussion . They wouldn't travel to Poland or Russia/Ukraine as they say they would feel that they were not safe.

My Polish next door neighbour from Krakow tells me some interesting stories about racism in Poland and football. She went out with an Indian guy and was terrorised herself in her own neighbourhood. One reason she decided to leave .

So basically do you deny you have a problem in Poland Danny ? Forget Ireland and other quotes do you realise and understand that there is alot to be done in Poland to stop racsim in society and football or do you still believe you dont have a problem?



AEGEAN-OLYMPIC AIR - ΟΛΥΜΠΙΑΚΗ " μέλος στη Star Alliance
User currently offlineDano1977 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Jun 2008, 474 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4830 times:

You really think UEFA care?

This is the same UEFA, that fined Manchester City £30K for coming out late for the second half.

But fined Porto only £20K for racist abuse from the fans

UEFA does not give a **** about racism and FIFA doesn't give a **** about either corruption or homophobia.


The only thing they care about is $$$$

The beautiful game... Yeah right.



Children should only be allowed on aircraft if 1. Muzzled and heavily sedated 2. Go as freight
User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3505 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 4757 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 17):
gain not the trend here and a small minority of thugs who are not supported by the majority.

Just like here. There are no reliabl;e data that the problem is bigger or smaller in country A or B. Racism is a worldwide problem, not just Polish or Ukrainian. From my experience after living in US, Ireland and Poland, Poland has a fairly small problem of racism. Naturally abyone can havce different opinion.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 17):
They wouldn't travel to Poland or Russia/Ukraine as they say they would feel that they were not safe.

Prejudice, all I can say.

Please read this good article in the yesterday's Irish independent then come and see yourself:
http://www.independent.ie/travel/tra...-a-kick-out-of-gdansk-3119663.html

When you're booked let me know. I'll show you around  


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26520 posts, RR: 58
Reply 20, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 4745 times:

Quoting Danny (Reply 19):

Hopefully the Polish nation can come to terms with their racism and neo nazi issues . It needs to be acknowledged at all levels of Polish society and in schools , government level,community etc..Its a huge mountain to climb but I wish them luck with it as its a serious problem and they are still in denial . Fingers crossed that the attacks dont go on during the games as Poland will get highlighted for all the wrong reasons !



AEGEAN-OLYMPIC AIR - ΟΛΥΜΠΙΑΚΗ " μέλος στη Star Alliance
User currently offlineDelboy From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 725 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (1 year 10 months 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 4610 times:

Us Brits have had a bad rep for many years over football hooliganism and racism. I think we've taken great strides to eliminate both and our game is the better for it.

I watched the documentary on Monday night and was appaled to see the interviwed Chief of Police deny that there was any rasist chants and actions at the game featured. He claimed elements of the crowd were not doing the Nazi salute but were merely pointing at the opposing fans. Well, I'm sorry but that was not what everyone else saw and herein lies the problem. When the man at the top buries his head in the sand and denies things like this are taking place, you've got very little hope of the rank and file policeman doing anything about it.

The stweards at the game in question were about as much use as a chocolate fireguard as well. When the violence kicked off they just stood and watched some poor bloke get repeatedly punched in the head. I suppose owning a dayglo jacket means you don't have to pay to watch your team play every week.

Mario Ballotelli has threatened to kill anyone who throws a banana at him and has said if he is racially abused at the EURO's, he'll walk off the pitch. The first part of that is just nonsense but the second part has some merit. Platini and his merry men at EUFA are impotent at dealing with these problems so let the players take it into their own hands by walking off the pitch if racially abused. Talk is cheap and actions speak louder than words.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39478 posts, RR: 75
Reply 22, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 4525 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 17):

Looks like we have a denier here in this thread.
It's really sad.

Quoting Delboy (Reply 21):
Us Brits have had a bad rep for many years over football hooliganism and racism. I think we've taken great strides to eliminate both and our game is the better for it.

  
Damn right!

That said, it's really disgusting to see such hatred displayed at an event which is nothing more than a kid's game.   



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineAeroflot777 From Russia, joined Mar 2004, 2993 posts, RR: 27
Reply 23, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 4581 times:

This thread is really sad. The worst part about it is how two sides are budding heads with each other and nothing is coming out of it.

Because I will definitely get flamed for my opinions, I will withhold from saying anything drastic. That said, however, I will mention this:

Racism exists everywhere. Some countries get called out more than others in the eyes of media and such. Certain people in this thread are making very extensive generalizations that are not warranted in any way. No one is denying (feel free to quote me on that) that Eastern Europe has problems with racism. This is widely known. The mere fact that these countries are being accused of not doing anything about this is utter BS. I personally have had an Armenian friend of mine murdered in the middle of the day on a subway station in Moscow. It took a few years to find the skin head killers, but they have now been put away deep into prison and closure for the families involved has been presented.

Likewise, I know quite a few black students in Moscow who went there to study abroad, are now fluent in Russian and thoroughly enjoy living there. In fact, have found steady jobs and are making quite a nice life. Thousands upon thousands of people of different nationalities live in Russia and live peacefully at that.

Ukraine is similar, I travel there very often and have family living there. Isolated issues with radical nationalists come into play here and there, but these cases cannot be used to stereotype the entire country and population. Radical groups are responsible for these atrocities, not everyone else. Unfortunately, we live in a world where crime is widespread. Every country on earth sees their problems, but judgement shouldn't be passed so easily. It's always easy to point fingers without proper knowledge. There are tens of millions of people in both Poland and Ukraine that are ready to welcome fans from around the world with open arms and that is fact.

The same can be said about other cities/countries hosting major events... London, Rio de Janeiro to name a few. One can find hundreds of media links to murders/bombings/thefts/kidnappings/terror plots and so on for each of them. Does this make them not capable of holding these events? No.

Judgements that are being passed in this thread are so childish it's mind-boggling to be reading them.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39478 posts, RR: 75
Reply 24, posted (1 year 10 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 4557 times:

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 25):
Certain people in this thread are making very extensive generalizations that are not warranted in any way.

Who?



Bring back the Concorde
25 dc9northwest : You think racism in football is an Eastern European thing? It's most certainly not. In fact, Italy definitely has some of the most racist football fan
26 dc9northwest : IDK... Recent experiences in matches between Polish and Romanian teams would make me think the fans in Poland are worse than those in Ukraine... I thi
27 Superfly : True. I presented the facts an even prove it with various new articles and live video and yet the same suspect from the last time this topic came up
28 ljw81 : All of the associations taking part in Euro 2012 should get together and agree that if any racial abuse occurs in these matches, then both teams shoul
29 Post contains links and images OA260 : Seems like our fears were valid ! Netherlands squad subjected to racist chants and monkey gestures at open training session in Poland Fears of a back
30 Post contains images Hywel : Weapons confiscated from Polish hooligans by Polish Police: Polish Police kitted out with guns, handcuffs, pepper spray, body armour, helmets and shie
31 MillwallSean : Can we start by understanding that weapons confiscated by police usually have very little to do with football. The british police showed off oldschool
32 par13del : So are they responsible for the individual nations letting their players compete while the politicians are able to express indignation and boycott th
33 Post contains links Danny : You obviously haven no clue what you are talking about. These weapons are collector's and were confiscated in UK. The guns your are so exited about a
34 dcaviation : Superfly, do you read what you write here? Are you really that ignorant? You are giving couple of examples from Russia/Ukraine or "Eastern Europe" but
35 OA260 : Seriously what are you smoking ? Quite alarming and naive comment .
36 KiwiRob : As a number of Russian friends have pointed out Ukraine never was a country, and it should never have been a country, Ukranians are just Russians by
37 Post contains images Quokkas : Racism, wherever it occurs displays ignorance, intolerance and stupidity. No Business with any sense would back it except where money is to be made th
38 Post contains links Superfly : Very disturbing indeed. Not sure why such weapons need to be brought to watch a sporting event. Same for dcaviation. Given all the supporting evidenc
39 Derico : Complete black eye on all of Europe.
40 KiwiRob : What do you consider Eastern Europe, places like Estonia, Latvia, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia are nothing like Ukraine, Belorussia...
41 Danny : Not smoking anything but I live here. I just stated the fact that you know nothing about Poland and make your judgments based on sensational and bias
42 L410Turbolet : Irrational? If you make such a big deal out of racism as a threat to Euro in Poland, then I think it is as much as relevant to question how fit is Lo
43 Superfly : Why would I be disappointed? IF what you are saying is true than that is wonderful. I have no vendetta against your country. You need to stop being s
44 ba6590 : Probably for the same reasons American adults get all emotional and passionate about sports most of the world doesn't care about.
45 Superfly : Yet I don't see the same level of hatred & violence associated with sporting events in the US.
46 ba6590 : Ah I get you, not really sure why. It certainly does bring out the worst in some people. Maybe all the alcohol. I must say though all the matches I w
47 OA260 : Well you do seem to have a history of extreme views so forgive us all for not picking you up on it . We can only go by the history of your posts. You
48 ImperialEagle : Yes. Perhaps here in the U.S. we have more of a "team spirit" going on. When I am thinking of my sports favs I not even thinking race or religion. I
49 MillwallSean : hmm and when we know move from the BBC and the British elite tot he real tournament we have seen the issues with poland and Ukraine. Its not about ra
50 Post contains links Superfly : You Brits were the ones that invented the term "soccer", not the Americans. We just didn't care to change the name as you guys and the rest of the wo
51 dcaviation : Couldn't said it better. As for the BS BBC movie. I was born and raised at one of the cities portrayed in the show. Not Warszawa, not Lodz, not Krako
52 dcaviation : Why you are showing us clips of Spanish intolerance? I thought that you've said that only Russia, Ukraine and "Other Eastern European countries" did
53 EricR : Generalizations like the one you make above. Racism is a human fault/weakness. It is NOT associated with one country or region, though people love to
54 Superfly : You're going by false allegations and misinterpretations by what dcaviation, Danny and MillwallSean. I NEVER said that this was ONLY a problem in one
55 sbworcs : Not sure if others have mentioned this but I find it strange that Ukraine has known problem with hoolaganism and racism and can co-host the tournament
56 Danny : Yeah, four Russian guys got a bit too much of vodka and caused a fight in a bar. Not the type of behaviour I approve but not a proof that the whole E
57 Superfly : So why do you feel that the press is singling out Eastern European countries? We can all agree with that but it isn't the topic in this thread.
58 Danny : Because that is what BBC did. They did not look for the truth picture of the country. They wanted to show racism and were only looking for that. Unfo
59 Superfly : No doubt about that and racism exist worldwide. Again, no one is denying that. The issue is with soccer. In Europe it seems to come out in these socc
60 EricR : No, I am not going by what others have said. I am going specifically by what you've said above. Your exact comment was: You believe this issue is lin
61 Superfly : So why is Eastern Europe being singled out?
62 Danny : I guess because the Euro2012 is here and not in some western European country as always. Plus the overall low level of media these days. You know - s
63 Superfly : I hope you're right. We shall see.
64 EricR : I view it less as Eastern Europe being singled out and more as an issue (violence and soccer matches) being discussed. Eastern Europe just happens to
65 Post contains links dcaviation : Here are your family oriented events in United States. It took me 30 seconds to search for it on youtube. Superfly just wants to hear what he wants to
66 Superfly : But that's not how Sol Campbell and many of the players see this issue. Why do you think these players are expressing concern over the issue when thi
67 KiwiRob : Sol is long retired so his point of view is rather pointless, he's not affected by this, did he even have any experience playing in Ukraine, Poland o
68 Post contains images L410Turbolet : Nice try taking my sentence out of context. They don't offend me, they are just silly and useless waste of time and money. Perhaps having the EU post
69 Superfly : Even though I made it clear in my earlier post that I acknowledge that not everyone in Eastern Europe share these extremist views?
70 Post contains links Superfly : News storiesa coming out seem to validate what I've been saying and OA260 is correct. http://www.independent.com.mt/news.asp?newsitemid=145746 http://
71 Post contains images OA260 : Not at all you write your posts not me . HAHA ,... again like always nothing to do with the topic in hand . Nice try though and shows again your lame
72 Post contains links MD-90 : I enjoyed Millwall Sean's post #52. Here's a similar experience from the other side of the fence--a European looking a proper American football (the I
73 Post contains links dcaviation : Superfly, Read here what John Godson has to say. He's living in Poland for over 20 years. He is member of parliament for few years now. I think that y
74 Post contains images Mir : There has been some violence in Warsaw today with Russian and Polish fans getting into it with each other. Police stopped a march of Russian fans enro
75 Post contains images Superfly : Thanks for the update. That's good to know that people are aware of the problem. I read it already a few days ago. He is correct however as a member
76 dc9northwest : You may not know this, but soccer hooligans are regarded as social pariahs, even in Eastern Europe. Most of them are considered to be druggies, drunk
77 Post contains links EricR : The problem is that it is not limited to Eastern Europe as you believe. For example, in 2004 the United States played Mexico in Mexico. The Mexican f
78 Superfly : ...and I showed a news story from Spain identifying the problem there as well. So explain the racist chants. I can dig up stories from every news age
79 EricR : Come on now. On one hand you ask me to explain the racist chants, so I provide you with a link that shows how this occurs in other areas of the world
80 Superfly : "this" What do you mean by "this"? Again, I showed clips from Spain which is not Eastern Europe. I find it suspect that you were so quick to believe
81 EricR : Why do you find that suspect? I never denied the problem (though somehow you believe that I did). All I am saying is that this issue is not limted to
82 Superfly : Can't make heads or tails of what you're trying to say here. Seems like you're dancing around the main issue that has been of concern in the internat
83 EricR : That is because you conveniently take quotes out of context. I suggest reading the full quote below.
84 dcaviation : Superfly, FYI. John doesn't have any protection of Secret Service (BOR in Poland). In Poland its not like in USA that all congressmen have to have pr
85 Post contains links detroitflyer : Well for what its worth, there was already an incident a couple days ago, about the Netherlands practice squad having to move, due to what some of the
86 Post contains images Superfly : This discussion is going nowhere, just in circles. Despite the overwhelming evidence and news sources - including news sources from Eastern Europe the
87 Post contains images Danny : We finally agree. Clearly yesterday incidents had nothing to do with racism but some people know their own story and will not be convinced by facts.
88 Post contains images CPH-R : I love the opening line of that article.. .. those pesky Eastern European Spaniards
89 KiwiRob : There was a massive fight between Russian and Polish fans yesterday, nothing to do with racism, just a big rolling fight and riot.
90 Post contains links and images OA260 : Link to the incident here . Street fighters: Polish fans attack a Russian supporter outside the stadium in Warsaw Euro 2012: Hundreds of fans go on r
91 SA7700 : Unfortunately this thread has run its course and will be locked for any further contributions. Please note that any posts added after the thread lock
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