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Euro 2012 The Shame Of Racism In Football Ukraine.  
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26859 posts, RR: 58
Posted (2 years 2 months 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 5568 times:

The BBC are running a documentary on this disgusting racism in Ukraine . The Euro 2012 is going to be overshadowed by this and makes you wonder why on earth they were allowed to stage it in the first place.

Sol Campbell warning on Euro 2012 racism

Former England captain Sol Campbell told BBC Panorama's Chris Rogers that he fears for the safety of football fans travelling to Euro 2012.

Mr Campbell questioned the decision of Uefa, European football's governing body, to award the tournament to joint hosts Ukraine and Poland after seeing footage taken by the programme that shows racist and anti-Semitic chanting in the terraces and an attack on a group of Asian students that took place in Ukraine.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18237932

A more disturbing video :

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18233736

91 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3508 posts, RR: 2
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 months 5 days ago) and read 5540 times:

UEFA is all about money and the could not care less about things like human rights, equality etc. I'm surprised that Sol Campbell only discovered that now.

Having said that you also must keep things in perspective. Just because there are some shameful racist groups in Ukraine or in Poland should not be a reason "not to travel to those countries". Those minority extreme groups do not reflect the opinions and beliefs of millions of people in both Poland and Ukraine.


User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5684 posts, RR: 19
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 months 5 days ago) and read 5537 times:

Quoting OA260 (Thread starter):

Former England captain Sol Campbell told BBC Panorama's Chris Rogers that he fears for the safety of football fans travelling to Euro 2012.

The English complaining about football violence? Gotta love the irony of that.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26859 posts, RR: 58
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 months 5 days ago) and read 5520 times:

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 2):
The English complaining about football violence? Gotta love the irony of that.

The British have done a lot to combat racism and violence over the years and that's even recognised by Black players and others of ethnic backgrounds. What we see in Ukraine is Police ignoring the violence and trying to say there are no issues in the stands. Mean while Nazi salutes and monkey noises are common place at Ukrainian football matches and as you see in the videos non whites are physically attacked in broad daylight.

Anyone that doesn't think that is disgusting is either blind or supporting the racists.


User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3508 posts, RR: 2
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 months 5 days ago) and read 5501 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 3):
Anyone that doesn't think that is disgusting is either blind or supporting the racists.

We do think it is disgusting.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39710 posts, RR: 75
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 months 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 5443 times:

Quoting OA260 (Thread starter):



I brought up this very topic several years ago here in this forum and was flamed by some for doing so. I'm surprised by how oblivious people are to what is going on in Eastern Europe. Events such as soccer/football games in Eastern European cities draws attention to this very topic.
This is a problem all throughout Eastern Europe and I'm surprised at how many people in Western Europe are unaware of what's going on there. The soccer/football player in the video is absolutely correct when he advises against non-Whites from travelling to the Ukraine to see this ballgame. Yes their lives will be in jeopardy.
Many people and authorities will deny and pretend the problem doesn't exist. When someone get's killed, they'll make an excuse as if it's the victims fault.



Nazi/Skinhead Killings On Rise In Russia (by Superfly Sep 12 2006 in Non Aviation)#1



Hitler's B-day; Immigrants On Lockdown In Russia (by Superfly Apr 19 2007 in Non Aviation)?threadid=1590979&searchid=1596103&s=Skinhead+Russia#menu27

Quoting OA260 (Reply 3):
Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 2):
The English complaining about football violence? Gotta love the irony of that.

The British have done a lot to combat racism and violence over the years and that's even recognised by Black players and others of ethnic backgrounds.


  
The drunken British hooligans don't pick their fights against people because of their skin color and the drunken Brit hooligans aren't a reflection of the attitudes of the British as a whole. The Eastern European hooligans on the other-hand...



OA260;
Here is a short documentary on the situation in Eastern Europe. Although they focus on Russia, it's the same situation in the Ukraine and other Eastern European nations.

Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j59BiLwdNO8
Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuOVgx3Zh6E&feature=related


Just look at what goes on at these football games in Eastern Europe;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSE0zp51SFE

Quoting Danny (Reply 1):
Those minority extreme groups do not reflect the opinions and beliefs of millions of people in both Poland and Ukraine.



That may be true and many Polish, Russian and Ukrainians are wonderful people but this 'minority' of extremist is rather large and they do not have the ability to stop or control the situation. As you can see, there are hundreds of youtube clips of skinheads themselves beating up and killing people. Yet people just look on or keep walking and the police have no control over the situation.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2376 posts, RR: 21
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 months 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 5304 times:

I know a guy from Benin who has lived in Ukraine for 12 years. He told me that as long as you stick to the center of the city, there is no problem. And by the way, I see many orthodox jews in Boryspil airport everytime I am there. Not defending Ukraine in any way though, and racism and anti semitism should never be tolerated.

[Edited 2012-05-28 13:57:45]

User currently offlinefrancoflier From France, joined Oct 2001, 3739 posts, RR: 11
Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5249 times:

Rampant racism and anti-semitism, while very bad, is not the most worrying issue that comes to mind when thinking of the Ukraine.
I tend to worry more about the tightening political turn towards an extreme-right authoritative regime, one which does encourage (or at least does not hamper) violent xenophobia, censors the media and emprisons political opponents for no good reasons.
Another former soviet country whose transition to democracy didn't go as it should...



Looks like I picked the wrong week to quit posting...
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39710 posts, RR: 75
Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5244 times:

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 6):
I know a guy from Benin who has lived in Ukraine for 12 years. He told me that as long as you stick to the center of the city, there is no problem.


Is he white? You may want to talk to someone who is Asian, African, Arab, Indian or Latino about their experience in an Eastern European city. They will most definitely have something different to say.

Apparently the city center isn't safe either;
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25642116...ukraine-grapples-rise-hate-crimes/

Nigerian medical student George Itoro Ebong says he was waiting for a bus in central Kiev last year when three young men ran up, shouted racially charged insults at him and smashed a bottle over his head.


Even high ranking diplomats aren't even safe.

http://articles.latimes.com/2005/mar/02/world/fg-briefs2.5

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 6):
And by the way, I see many orthodox jews in Boryspil airport everytime I am there.


They're white Europeans and many are originally from the Ukraine.
The airport is going to be safe. You don't know what precautions they take once they leave the airport.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39710 posts, RR: 75
Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 months 4 days 15 hours ago) and read 5219 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 7):
Rampant racism and anti-semitism, while very bad, is not the most worrying issue that comes to mind when thinking of the Ukraine.
I tend to worry more about the tightening political turn towards an extreme-right authoritative regime, one which does encourage (or at least does not hamper) violent xenophobia, censors the media and emprisons political opponents for no good reasons.
Another former soviet country whose transition to democracy didn't go as it should...



I had this same exact conversation with a very liberal friend of mine from Germany who is a journalist. He was insisting that this is all Putin's fault and I was telling him that he was wrong. Some of the most vocal anti-Putin forces are indeed the racist nationalist, skinheads that do not want non-whites in their country. He couldn't accept that these nationalist were on the same side as him in wanting to get rid of Putin. The lack of exposure of this issue even among media folks is disturbing.
For a non-white person visiting Eastern Europe, they're going to be more concerned about their immediate safety than censorship and internal politics.
Hosting an international soccer event in the Ukraine, Russia or any Eastern European country is a really stupid idea.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13170 posts, RR: 77
Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5132 times:

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 2):
The English complaining about football violence? Gotta love the irony of that.

Anyone who makes as much as a racist chant once and gets heard is liable to get ejected from the ground, could be arrested and charged. Clubs who are not seen to make a serious effort to clamp down on it face sanction. Players who do it face serious trouble too, Fact. Not whatever went on 25-30 years ago. Meanwhile Sepp Dietrich, I mean Blatter, thinks it's OK for any on field protagonists to shake hands. The well documented English efforts to stamp this sort of thing out are never going to be taken serious by that old crook because, well it's the English who are doing it and leading the way, he'll resent that.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):
The drunken British hooligans don't pick their fights against people because of their skin color and the drunken Brit hooligans aren't a reflection of the attitudes of the British as a whole. The Eastern European hooligans on the other-hand...

English hooligans are likely to be middle aged with large beer bellies so less able to evade the police! Since they were doing it in the 1970's and 80's, if they are allowed to travel at all, having a record of hooliganism can and has lead to travel banning orders.
There might be a few younger ones around, but just a few, mostly in-breds from small towns supporting small clubs.


User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3508 posts, RR: 2
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5127 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):
Here is a short documentary on the situation in Eastern Europe. Although they focus on Russia, it's the same situation in the Ukraine and other Eastern European nations.

Please avoid generalizations like that. This is simply not true. It's like saying that in UK and Ireland they are murdering Eastern Europens because there were a couple of incidents like that:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0326/breaking51.html

Btw: Have you noticed the anti - Polish campaign in Holland that led to setting up a house of polish immigrants on fire?

Quoting Danny (Reply 4):
Quoting Danny (Reply 1):
Those minority extreme groups do not reflect the opinions and beliefs of millions of people in both Poland and Ukraine.



That may be true and many Polish, Russian and Ukrainians are wonderful people but this 'minority' of extremist is rather large

How large? A few thousand? 20 thousand? Maybe. But there is 36 million of us in Poland. Again you need to keep things in perspective.


User currently offlinecedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8060 posts, RR: 54
Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5118 times:

Ukraine is an odd mix. I actually really enjoy my visits there, because it feels very different to the rest of Europe - although many of the things that make it exotic to a visitor make it hard to live in, eg it's poor and crumbly with creaking infrastructure. The city that most closely matches Kiev in my experience is probably Tehran - big and teeming and polluted, functioning but a million miles from Dusseldorf.

The trouble I've encountered there has always been with police, not civilians. A friend of mine was shaken down for EUR50 for "not carrying ID" - trumped up nonsense. The next night, I was walking with a friend and we were stopped by two cops who were extremely threatening, tried to shake us down for some cash as well. Later that evening another pair of cops followed us in a way that made us uncomfortable. Finally, on a taxi ride, we were stopped for "speeding" (I don't think we were) and our driver put a large note of Ukrainian Hrievna inside his driving license, cop pocketed the cash and let us go. The trouble with that kind of corruption is, the first step to stamping it out is double wages for the police. Since Ukraine is extremely poor, the price is simply too high and it's much easier for the government to keep paying a pittance and let the system take care of the rest. But while that goes on, the society will never improve.

Then there's the awful tale of Yulia Tymoshenko. No other European nation rigs elections so blatantly, then imprisons the ex prime minister. Shameful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yulia_Tymoshenko

Hopefully the baleful glare of the spotlight will help Ukraine clean up it's act - cos there's a lot to like: lots of history, wide open skies, Pripyat (if a preview of the end of the world is your thing), beautiful music, beautiful girls, Odessa, the Crimea, etc etc.



fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39710 posts, RR: 75
Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 months 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 5115 times:

Quoting Danny (Reply 11):
Please avoid generalizations like that.


What generalizations?

Quoting Danny (Reply 11):
Again you need to keep things in perspective.


And I did put things in to perspective but it sounds like you're denying the problem exist.
If you've watched any of the clips and read the articles you can see it's a severe problem. I'm sure you are well aware of the problem but like many, turn a blind eye to it.

As GDB pointed out, acts of inciting racial violence in the UK carries serious consequences. That is not the case in Eastern Europe. As rowdy as the British may be, you would NEVER see those kinds of chants in a football stadium in the UK in this day & age.

BTW, I have a friend that works for the US State Department and lived in Poland for a few years. It was not safe for her husband who is Chinese to roam freely throughout Poland by himself. They faced all sorts of discrimination from some of the locals.
I understand that you're ashamed of this problem in your country but to deny it seems like you support some of these views.
No one said everyone in Eastern Europe holds these beliefs but the problem is serious in many of the fmr. Communist Eastern European countries.

[Edited 2012-05-28 23:19:57]


Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2376 posts, RR: 21
Reply 14, posted (2 years 2 months 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 5095 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 8):


No he is black. Thats why I mentioned him.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26859 posts, RR: 58
Reply 15, posted (2 years 2 months 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 5060 times:

Quoting Danny (Reply 11):
This is simply not true. It's like saying that in UK and Ireland they are murdering Eastern Europens because there were a couple of incidents like that:
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0326/breaking51.html

Something very rare in Ireland and not comparable to hundreds of nazi racist football fans in Poland/Ukraine/Russia etc... Its a culture change that needs to happen and it needs to come from the corrupt Police and the leaders of the countries involved. Sadly there is no will to do it and they dont care.

Big difference between isolated racist incidents in the UK and Ireland and huge organised racist beatings that are ''allowed'' to become the norm in the above countries. Rather than point the finger to others one needs to accept the problem they have. The worst thing than the nazi/racists is those that say '' oh look what they do in the UK and Ireland'' Thus denying the serious problem .


User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3508 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (2 years 2 months 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 5025 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 15):
Something very rare in Ireland

I remember there was also a case of a Latvian man bitten to death by Dublin airport, incidents of houses of polish immigrants being arsoned in Belfast etc. Not so rare as you want to believe it.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 15):
Big difference between isolated racist incidents in the UK and Ireland and huge organised racist beatings that are ''allowed'' to become the norm in the above countries.

I am not aware of any huge organized racist beatings in Poland neither anything like that is allowed here. These incidents happen but are as rare as the ones I pointed out in Ireland. I speak that only for Poland, not so sure about Ukraine or Russia.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 15):
Thus denying the serious problem .

I haven't denied anything in fact admitted these are disgraceful incidents -read reply 4. On the other side you have just denied the problem exist in Ireland yet it was exactly the same type of incidents.


On another note if you wish to know more about problems related to football hooligans in Poland - the real problem is not so much racism as involvment of football hooligans in organized crime i.e drug dealing. That is real issue and it is being tackled - yesterday 42 hools were arrested and most of them have been charged with drug dealing and membership of organized crime organization.
Link - polish only
http://wiadomosci.gazeta.pl/wiadomos...narkotykami.html?lokale=trojmiasto

[Edited 2012-05-29 03:25:05]

User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26859 posts, RR: 58
Reply 17, posted (2 years 2 months 4 days ago) and read 4984 times:

Quoting Danny (Reply 16):
I remember there was also a case of a Latvian man bitten to death by Dublin airport, incidents of houses of polish immigrants being arsoned in Belfast etc. Not so rare as you want to believe it.

Again not the trend here and a small minority of thugs who are not supported by the majority. I can see why you are doing it though to try to deny the problem that exists in Poland but you really need to wake up and accept the fact there is a problem otherwise nothing will change. It may be a tough pill to swallow but it needs to be done and denial is the worst thing .

When anything like that here happens its on all the TV programs and the majority are sickened about it and these people are brought to justice by the Police ! They don't deny the problem as do some Police forces in the above mentioned countries.

Quoting Danny (Reply 16):
I am not aware of any huge organized racist beatings in Poland neither anything like that is allowed here.

POLISH FOOTBALL'S RACISM PROBLEM

Racism may never be fully eradicated from football, but what I found during an investigation into the problem in Poland was truly shocking.

And this in the country that will co-host the 2012 European Football Championship.

I found racism that was strident and in your face in a way it never was in Britain, even in the very bad old days of English football in the 1970s and 80s.

Then, as one of the regular football reporters at the Sunday Times, I spent my Saturdays at football matches and had several first-hand experiences of racism.

Much of it was very unpleasant. But in Poland it was on a different, deeper and much nastier level.

http://www.nigdywiecej.org/index.php...m_content&task=view&id=791

----

True Poles ??

Football: 'Clown' Tomaszewski under fire for racism

(WARSAW) - Iconic former Poland goalkeeper Jan Tomaszewski is under fire for a tirade against players in the Euro 2012 host nation's squad who were born or raised abroad.

The 1974 World Cup hero, now a lawmaker with Poland's conservative opposition, has repeatedly faced criticism for such outbursts.

"I don't want to see the White Eagles' shirt worn by Frenchmen and Germans who've already played for France and Germany, didn't make it in their own national team and are taking away slots from our own, true Poles," Tomaszewski told Poland's Radio Zet.

http://www.eubusiness.com/news-eu/racism-fbl-euro-pol.gfl

This was highlighted back in 2008 also when the concerns over 2012 were raised :

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1821189/bbc_poland_football_racism/

Quoting Danny (Reply 16):
On the other side you have just denied the problem exist in Ireland yet it was exactly the same type of incidents.

Didn't say the problem didn't exist in Ireland the issues we have here are on a much smaller scale and dealt with severely. Remember I'm an immigrant myself here ! Please don't pick and choose to suit your argument. I have 5 Nigerian colleagues at work and they feel totally safe here and don't encounter racism because we have had this same discussion . They wouldn't travel to Poland or Russia/Ukraine as they say they would feel that they were not safe.

My Polish next door neighbour from Krakow tells me some interesting stories about racism in Poland and football. She went out with an Indian guy and was terrorised herself in her own neighbourhood. One reason she decided to leave .

So basically do you deny you have a problem in Poland Danny ? Forget Ireland and other quotes do you realise and understand that there is alot to be done in Poland to stop racsim in society and football or do you still believe you dont have a problem?


User currently onlineDano1977 From British Indian Ocean Territory, joined Jun 2008, 484 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 2 months 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 4956 times:

You really think UEFA care?

This is the same UEFA, that fined Manchester City £30K for coming out late for the second half.

But fined Porto only £20K for racist abuse from the fans

UEFA does not give a **** about racism and FIFA doesn't give a **** about either corruption or homophobia.


The only thing they care about is $$$$

The beautiful game... Yeah right.



Children should only be allowed on aircraft if 1. Muzzled and heavily sedated 2. Go as freight
User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3508 posts, RR: 2
Reply 19, posted (2 years 2 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4883 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 17):
gain not the trend here and a small minority of thugs who are not supported by the majority.

Just like here. There are no reliabl;e data that the problem is bigger or smaller in country A or B. Racism is a worldwide problem, not just Polish or Ukrainian. From my experience after living in US, Ireland and Poland, Poland has a fairly small problem of racism. Naturally abyone can havce different opinion.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 17):
They wouldn't travel to Poland or Russia/Ukraine as they say they would feel that they were not safe.

Prejudice, all I can say.

Please read this good article in the yesterday's Irish independent then come and see yourself:
http://www.independent.ie/travel/tra...-a-kick-out-of-gdansk-3119663.html

When you're booked let me know. I'll show you around  


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26859 posts, RR: 58
Reply 20, posted (2 years 2 months 3 days 20 hours ago) and read 4871 times:

Quoting Danny (Reply 19):

Hopefully the Polish nation can come to terms with their racism and neo nazi issues . It needs to be acknowledged at all levels of Polish society and in schools , government level,community etc..Its a huge mountain to climb but I wish them luck with it as its a serious problem and they are still in denial . Fingers crossed that the attacks dont go on during the games as Poland will get highlighted for all the wrong reasons !


User currently offlineDelboy From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2001, 725 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 2 months 3 days ago) and read 4736 times:

Us Brits have had a bad rep for many years over football hooliganism and racism. I think we've taken great strides to eliminate both and our game is the better for it.

I watched the documentary on Monday night and was appaled to see the interviwed Chief of Police deny that there was any rasist chants and actions at the game featured. He claimed elements of the crowd were not doing the Nazi salute but were merely pointing at the opposing fans. Well, I'm sorry but that was not what everyone else saw and herein lies the problem. When the man at the top buries his head in the sand and denies things like this are taking place, you've got very little hope of the rank and file policeman doing anything about it.

The stweards at the game in question were about as much use as a chocolate fireguard as well. When the violence kicked off they just stood and watched some poor bloke get repeatedly punched in the head. I suppose owning a dayglo jacket means you don't have to pay to watch your team play every week.

Mario Ballotelli has threatened to kill anyone who throws a banana at him and has said if he is racially abused at the EURO's, he'll walk off the pitch. The first part of that is just nonsense but the second part has some merit. Platini and his merry men at EUFA are impotent at dealing with these problems so let the players take it into their own hands by walking off the pitch if racially abused. Talk is cheap and actions speak louder than words.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39710 posts, RR: 75
Reply 22, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 4651 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 17):

Looks like we have a denier here in this thread.
It's really sad.

Quoting Delboy (Reply 21):
Us Brits have had a bad rep for many years over football hooliganism and racism. I think we've taken great strides to eliminate both and our game is the better for it.

  
Damn right!

That said, it's really disgusting to see such hatred displayed at an event which is nothing more than a kid's game.   



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineAeroflot777 From Russia, joined Mar 2004, 3006 posts, RR: 27
Reply 23, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4707 times:

This thread is really sad. The worst part about it is how two sides are budding heads with each other and nothing is coming out of it.

Because I will definitely get flamed for my opinions, I will withhold from saying anything drastic. That said, however, I will mention this:

Racism exists everywhere. Some countries get called out more than others in the eyes of media and such. Certain people in this thread are making very extensive generalizations that are not warranted in any way. No one is denying (feel free to quote me on that) that Eastern Europe has problems with racism. This is widely known. The mere fact that these countries are being accused of not doing anything about this is utter BS. I personally have had an Armenian friend of mine murdered in the middle of the day on a subway station in Moscow. It took a few years to find the skin head killers, but they have now been put away deep into prison and closure for the families involved has been presented.

Likewise, I know quite a few black students in Moscow who went there to study abroad, are now fluent in Russian and thoroughly enjoy living there. In fact, have found steady jobs and are making quite a nice life. Thousands upon thousands of people of different nationalities live in Russia and live peacefully at that.

Ukraine is similar, I travel there very often and have family living there. Isolated issues with radical nationalists come into play here and there, but these cases cannot be used to stereotype the entire country and population. Radical groups are responsible for these atrocities, not everyone else. Unfortunately, we live in a world where crime is widespread. Every country on earth sees their problems, but judgement shouldn't be passed so easily. It's always easy to point fingers without proper knowledge. There are tens of millions of people in both Poland and Ukraine that are ready to welcome fans from around the world with open arms and that is fact.

The same can be said about other cities/countries hosting major events... London, Rio de Janeiro to name a few. One can find hundreds of media links to murders/bombings/thefts/kidnappings/terror plots and so on for each of them. Does this make them not capable of holding these events? No.

Judgements that are being passed in this thread are so childish it's mind-boggling to be reading them.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39710 posts, RR: 75
Reply 24, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 4683 times:

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 25):
Certain people in this thread are making very extensive generalizations that are not warranted in any way.

Who?



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinedc9northwest From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 2269 posts, RR: 7
Reply 25, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4725 times:

You think racism in football is an Eastern European thing? It's most certainly not. In fact, Italy definitely has some of the most racist football fans in the world. Maybe it's not as bad as Russia and Ukraine, but I don't know. I certainly hear of incidents from all those places.

There are countless black football players in Romania, and a few Asian and Arab players. Many of the black players have moved to Romanian teams from countries like Serbia, where they claim at every game there were racist chants, etc. However, these incidents have not been a problem in Romania. By the players' own statements... I recall reading a few of these stories...

I'm not saying there isn't racism in Romania, but it's towards gypsies, on the same level as anywhere else in Europe. The only racial group towards which the Romanian people in general have hatred towards is gypsies. This is continually perpetuated by the Western European media who can't differentiate between Rroma and Romania.

In the late 1990s I can vouch that black players were regarded very well, and because they were different they often got to be stars for their local teams, or if they were contracted by good teams, nationally known stars. Some were half-Romanian, some were 100% foreign. There are disproportionately many black/half-black TV stars in Romania given the percent of the population who are black. No, Romania, strictly talking about racial bias, is not as bad as other EE countries, or even Italy, France and Spain.

To be honest, I've witnessed much more racism in the States than in Romania. Especially towards Muslims/Arabs... I won't speak for the rest of Eastern Europe, since I've seen very little of it.

That said, many, many, many football "fans" (well, not actual fans, IMO, just hooligans) have extreme right wing views. I've certainly heard this about both Polish and Ukrainian fans.


User currently offlinedc9northwest From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 2269 posts, RR: 7
Reply 26, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 4709 times:

IDK... Recent experiences in matches between Polish and Romanian teams would make me think the fans in Poland are worse than those in Ukraine... I think it was Wisla Krakow's hooligans who really made a mess of things... But I can't talk about how racist they are. Certainly, though, given they are extreme right-wingers, I would expect a lot of racist incidents.

Ukraine on the other hand does not have the infrastructure to host the Euro, while Poland I think does. For that matter, the rest of the Eastern European countries don't, aside possibly the Czech Republic (I exclude Russia); although I'm not sure how large the Czech stadiums are...

Looking back, I agree that the EE isn't the best place to hold a major championship like this.

[Edited 2012-06-13 03:49:32 by SA7700]

User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39710 posts, RR: 75
Reply 27, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 4557 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 28):
Yes but the same suspects always come up with the same things so not really surprised .


True. I presented the facts an even prove it with various new articles and live video and yet the same suspect from the last time this topic came up is still denying the problem.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineljw81 From UK - England, joined Mar 2011, 5 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (2 years 2 months 23 hours ago) and read 4492 times:

All of the associations taking part in Euro 2012 should get together and agree that if any racial abuse occurs in these matches, then both teams should walk off the pitch. That might finally get UEFA, Ukraine and Poland to take notice and do something about the problem.

If a single player walks off the pitch, nothing will be done apart form that player getting severly punished by UEFA.

Hopefully there will be no trouble and it will be a great tournament. Im really looking forward to it.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26859 posts, RR: 58
Reply 29, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 4201 times:

Quoting ljw81 (Reply 31):
All of the associations taking part in Euro 2012 should get together and agree that if any racial abuse occurs in these matches, then both teams should walk off the pitch.

  

Seems like our fears were valid !

Netherlands squad subjected to racist chants and monkey gestures at open training session in Poland

Fears of a backdrop of racism at Euro 2012 have unfortunately already begun to be realised, with Netherlands' squad subjected to monkey chants at their open practice session in Krakow in Poland, on Thursday.

The news came just hours before the tournament kicks off, with co-hosts Poland facing Greece in Warsaw.

Reports indicate that black players in the squad, including Manchester City’s Nigel de Jong and Ajax’s Gregory van der Wiel, were targeted by hundreds of the 25,000-strong crowd as they jogged around Stadion Miejski.

http://www.foxsports.com.au/football...oland/story-fndz7cg9-1226389014470


User currently offlineHywel From Uganda, joined Apr 2008, 801 posts, RR: 5
Reply 30, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 4140 times:

Weapons confiscated from Polish hooligans by Polish Police:



Polish Police kitted out with guns, handcuffs, pepper spray, body armour, helmets and shields:



It's reassuring to see the Police trying to do something about the problem, although I don't think it's enough. A total boycott is needed to highlight the severity of the problem.


User currently offlineMillwallSean From Singapore, joined Apr 2008, 1240 posts, RR: 6
Reply 31, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4089 times:

Can we start by understanding that weapons confiscated by police usually have very little to do with football. The british police showed off oldschool weapons from a so called Chelsea hooligan in the late eighties. He was a collector, the weapons still made the BBC news in may when they discussed potential riots during the Euros...
(And no England fans wont kick off in Ukriane, no way with those accomodation prices and distances)

Hooligans are a very mixed bunch of people, often from minorities. Thats usually fotgotten.

What UEFA has done about this percieved threat of racism is mandate that any player protesting against rascism from the stands will get an automatic booking. Platini as always knows how to handle an issue. Thank f*ck him and not the English press/prawn sandwich brigade/cultural elite dictates how football is run.

And its no surprise that some of the posters bringing this up in this thread tend to watch very little football even calling it rather patronising terms soemtimes.
Easier to be opinionated about a subject when one isnt interested or have knowledge...



No One Likes Us - We Dont Care.
User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7075 posts, RR: 8
Reply 32, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4085 times:

Quoting Danny (Reply 1):
UEFA is all about money and the could not care less about things like human rights, equality etc.

So are they responsible for the individual nations letting their players compete while the politicians are able to express indignation and boycott the festivities? Will these politicians be fined by their nations for not participating or are only the players held to such standards and not their leaders who pass laws and accept treaties that ensure their citizens participation and codes of conduct?
Is this is a double standard, can players also express their moral indignation and not participate?


User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3508 posts, RR: 2
Reply 33, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4069 times:

Quoting Hywel (Reply 33):
It's reassuring to see the Police trying to do something about the problem, although I don't think it's enough. A total boycott is needed to highlight the severity of the problem.

You obviously haven no clue what you are talking about. These weapons are collector's and were confiscated in UK.

The guns your are so exited about are for rubber bullets. They cause pain but don't hurt.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 32):
Seems like our fears were valid !

NO - there's group of media who's agenda is to prove that Poland is a racist country. I would not be surprised if they organized or paid those few idiots who shouted at Netherland's training.

This is how we welcomed Ireland:
http://i47.tinypic.com/j65svt.jpg
and this is how 99,9% of Poles feel about the Euro and all the coming teams and fans.


User currently offlinedcaviation From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 195 posts, RR: 0
Reply 34, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 4063 times:

Superfly, do you read what you write here? Are you really that ignorant?
You are giving couple of examples from Russia/Ukraine or "Eastern Europe" but you are putting blind eye on this problem in your neighborhood. Right in front of your nose.

"Hosting an international soccer event in the Ukraine, Russia or any Eastern European country is a really stupid idea."

Why are you being such a prejudice against poor people in Ukraine, Russia or "any Eastern European country" ?
WTH is wrong with you? Generalizing all people because of few incidents?
I hate to break it to you, but in USA alone we had more hate crimes last year then in entire Europe put together.

Also, I'm sorry to inform you, but Russia will host Winter Olympics in Sochi 2014.

If you are such a racism disguised person, why don't you start with neo-nazi groups in USA? Oh, wait a minute, they are allowed to exist in USA but they are not allowed in Europe?

Like I've said above, before you start steering crap about Eastern Europe, start with your neighborhood.


User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26859 posts, RR: 58
Reply 35, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4025 times:

Quoting Danny (Reply 36):

Seriously what are you smoking ? Quite alarming and naive comment .


User currently onlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7143 posts, RR: 3
Reply 36, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4018 times:

Quoting francoflier (Reply 7):
Another former soviet country whose transition to democracy didn't go as it should...

As a number of Russian friends have pointed out Ukraine never was a country, and it should never have been a country, Ukranians are just Russians by another name. Especially in the South it's always been Russian, it's never been Ukrainian until Khrushchev cocked things up and transferred the Crimea to the Ukrainian SSR.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 9):
Hosting an international soccer event in the Ukraine, Russia or any Eastern European country is a really stupid idea.

That's a fairly inaccurate generalisation, there are plenty of Eastern European countries which you'll never have any problems in.


User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 37, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 4010 times:

Racism, wherever it occurs displays ignorance, intolerance and stupidity. No Business with any sense would back it except where money is to be made through of idiotic tribalism.

Which may go some way to explaining why the football authorities seek to impose penalties against players who walk off rather than the host. It is easier to get rid of an individual, troublesome player than lose the potential income from maybe (overtly) racist crowds. This is why I was not shocked by the Association's threat to those players who walk off.

This to me is more of a problem then the the mindless morons on the terraces. The Association had made it clear that the threat to their profits is more important than the safety and dignity of the players.

I must admit that I am concerned that some of the reporting has not been completely honest. (We are dealing with the media so why would that surprise is?   ) The BBC quoted one person who stressed that racism was not general and that instances were limited to the terraces, yet, according to the Guardian, that person has lodged a complaint that what he actually said was taken as a generalisation of society and not specific to football thugs. The BBC has gone into damage control, denied the claims made by the person they interviewed and stand by their story on the grounds that they have footage of events at football matches.

I am 100% sure that racism exists among football "supporters" in Poland and Ukraine in the same way that I am 100% sure that it exists in other venues. Given that the whole basis of football is rivalry it is not surprising that the tribalism fostered results in displays of naked and primitive hatreds. As long as the people who run football can make money out of it they will turn a blind eye to it. And that is exactly why they target the players who walk off rather than the crowd who bey for blood.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39710 posts, RR: 75
Reply 38, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3931 times:

Quoting Hywel (Reply 33):

Very disturbing indeed. Not sure why such weapons need to be brought to watch a sporting event.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 38):
Seriously what are you smoking ? Quite alarming and naive comment .

Same for dcaviation.
Given all the supporting evidence the best they can do insult other members and deny the problem exist. It's a fact that nationalism is on the rise in Eastern Europe and it really comes out during these soccer games. Rather than acknowledge the problem, they deny it even exist which pretty much tells us that they sympathize with these thugs and are probably member themselves.
Looks like a lot of these thugs are here in these forums and goes to show how prevalent these prejudice attitudes are tolerated in this part of the world.

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 37):
I'm sorry to inform you, but Russia will host Winter Olympics in Sochi 2014.

Well aware of that and concerns about skinhead attacks have been addresses and are still of concern for many participating countries.
Looks like you're friends are looking forward to the event.
http://whitepowerforum.com/index.php/tag/2014-winter-olympics/

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/07/12/wo...-12russiapress-review.6627066.html



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineDerico From Argentina, joined Dec 1999, 4302 posts, RR: 12
Reply 39, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3911 times:

Complete black eye on all of Europe.


My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
User currently onlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7143 posts, RR: 3
Reply 40, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 3835 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 41):
It's a fact that nationalism is on the rise in Eastern Europe and it really comes out during these soccer games.

What do you consider Eastern Europe, places like Estonia, Latvia, Czech Republic, Slovakia, Hungary, Slovenia are nothing like Ukraine, Belorussia......


User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3508 posts, RR: 2
Reply 41, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3806 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 41):
Quoting OA260 (Reply 38):
Seriously what are you smoking ? Quite alarming and naive comment .

Same for dcaviation.

Not smoking anything but I live here. I just stated the fact that you know nothing about Poland and make your judgments based on sensational and biased journalism.The BBC movie was so biased that even Jewish organizations (who were shown as victims) protested against it.

Yesterday the Euro started, there was absolutely fantastic atmosphere in both Warsaw and Wroclaw stadiums. Hundreds of thousands of people enjoyed the matches fan-zones with absolutely zero incidents of any kind. You must be disappointed but that is the truth.


User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5684 posts, RR: 19
Reply 42, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3795 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 28):
Just look at the irrational statements above about" Londonistan".

Irrational? If you make such a big deal out of racism as a threat to Euro in Poland, then I think it is as much as relevant to question how fit is London for the Olympics given its politically uber-correct police where certain officers can pick and choose which duties they will carry out, failure to get rid of even most notorious immigrant extremists and very recent history of terrorist attacks and/or racially motivated riots in its suburbs.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 28):
Maybe the hosts will surprise us all and have huge anti racism adverts on their national TV networks before all the games and anti racism exhibitions outside the stadiums with active participation from the major Polish and Ukranian football teams.

This sounds like ideas of some clueless EUrocrat who thinks that best way to solve anything is to plaster it with stupid posters, appoint a commission or two and have an "exhibition"...

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 39):
As a number of Russian friends have pointed out Ukraine never was a country, and it should never have been a country, Ukranians are just Russians by another name.

Yeah, as if they are any authority to say who can be a country and who can't.
Isn't a.net wonderful? From discussing one hysterical comment by some second rate football player and biased "documentary" by BBC with their obvious agenda we ended up questioning right to independence of a whole country. As they say, opinions are like an ass-hole. Everybody has one.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39710 posts, RR: 75
Reply 43, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 3781 times:

Quoting Danny (Reply 44):
You must be disappointed

Why would I be disappointed?
IF what you are saying is true than that is wonderful. I have no vendetta against your country. You need to stop being so sensitive just because someone pointed out a problem in your country.

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 45):
Irrational? If you make such a big deal out of racism as a threat to Euro in Poland, then I think it is as much as relevant to question how fit is London for the Olympics given its politically uber-correct police where certain officers can pick and choose which duties they will carry out, failure to get rid of even most notorious immigrant extremists and very recent history of terrorist attacks and/or racially motivated riots in its suburbs.

You and OA260 both have valid points. I'm not sure if the terrorist in London will target a soccer game because they like soccer too.
I hope all the left-wing Europe-worshipers in America are paying attention to this. So many Obama supporters and left-wing American backpackers with their fake Canada flags worship Europe and think the entire European continent is a perfect utopia. Europe has it's fair-share of serious problems. Islamfication in the West and nationalist skinhead attacks in the East. As someone who enjoyed playing soccer as a kid and on a team at the ages of 12-14, I can't figure out why adults gets so emotional and passionate about something most Americans just consider a kid's sport - soccer.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineba6590 From UK - England, joined Jul 2007, 132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 44, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3766 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 46):
I can't figure out why adults gets so emotional and passionate about something most Americans just consider a kid's sport - soccer.

Probably for the same reasons American adults get all emotional and passionate about sports most of the world doesn't care about.



"Never forget, the higher we soar, the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly" - Nietzsche -
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39710 posts, RR: 75
Reply 45, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3764 times:

Quoting ba6590 (Reply 47):
Probably for the same reasons American adults get all emotional and passionate about sports most of the world doesn't care about.

Yet I don't see the same level of hatred & violence associated with sporting events in the US.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineba6590 From UK - England, joined Jul 2007, 132 posts, RR: 0
Reply 46, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3757 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 48):
Yet I don't see the same level of hatred & violence associated with sporting events in the US.

Ah I get you, not really sure why. It certainly does bring out the worst in some people. Maybe all the alcohol.
I must say though all the matches I watched last season, although passionate were not violant in any way at all. But I agree thats not the state everywhere.



"Never forget, the higher we soar, the smaller we appear to those who cannot fly" - Nietzsche -
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26859 posts, RR: 58
Reply 47, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 3740 times:

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 45):
Irrational?

Well you do seem to have a history of extreme views so forgive us all for not picking you up on it . We can only go by the history of your posts. You do understand .

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 45):
If you make such a big deal out of racism

Sorry if anti racism comments offend you .

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 45):
This sounds like ideas of some clueless EUrocrat who thinks that best way to solve anything is to plaster it with stupid posters, appoint a commission or two and have an "exhibition"...

Again sorry if anti racism campaigns offend you .

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 45):
As they say, opinions are like an ass-hole. Everybody has one.

Indeed You said it !


User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2529 posts, RR: 23
Reply 48, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3724 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Superfly (Reply 48):
Yet I don't see the same level of hatred & violence associated with sporting events in the US.

Yes. Perhaps here in the U.S. we have more of a "team spirit" going on. When I am thinking of my sports favs I not even thinking race or religion. I just don't care about such things to begin with.
Same thing with my close friends. I never stop to contemplate their ethnicity or faith. They are my friends----period.



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlineMillwallSean From Singapore, joined Apr 2008, 1240 posts, RR: 6
Reply 49, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 3707 times:

Quoting Danny (Reply 44):
Yesterday the Euro started, there was absolutely fantastic atmosphere in both Warsaw and Wroclaw stadiums. Hundreds of thousands of people enjoyed the matches fan-zones with absolutely zero incidents of any kind. You must be disappointed but that is the truth.

hmm and when we know move from the BBC and the British elite tot he real tournament we have seen the issues with poland and Ukraine.
Its not about racism.
Its about in Polands case old fashioned hooliganism and in Ukraines case poverty.

While the first day might have been great, Polish hooligans attacked normal supporters both English and Russian in places such as Lodz, Krakow and Wroclaw.
Russian supporters kicked the living daylight out of a few polish guards as well.

Over Ukraine a Spanish tourist wa skilled in rather suspicious circumstances. Suspicious in regards to what the spanish supporter really was doing and why he was where he was.
Gay, looking for Ukrainian girls or just very naive. We shall see.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 46):
I hope all the left-wing Europe-worshipers in America are paying attention to this. So many Obama supporters and left-wing American backpackers with their fake Canada flags worship Europe and think the entire European continent is a perfect utopia. Europe has it's fair-share of serious problems. Islamfication in the West and nationalist skinhead attacks in the East. As someone who enjoyed playing soccer as a kid and on a team at the ages of 12-14, I can't figure out why adults gets so emotional and passionate about something most Americans just consider a kid's sport - soccer.

First we refer to the sport as football. Saying soccer is something more likely to get you into trouble, serious trouble, than race will ever be. Its good to keep that perspective because it puts things in place.

Second what Americans consider childish is rather pointless. they can stick to world finals in sports them and a few Caribbean islands care about while we play the biggest, most prosperous, most watched and most talked about game in the world.

Third, if you spend the majority of threads saying you're not interested in football, calling half the English population hooligans (not knowing what a hooligan is or look like) I don't think its appropriate to have as many opinions about football. Try a few games than return and you can have opinions. You might even learn something. (and pls dont say soccer - I dont want to pay for your hospital bill)
I know just the right lads down Millwall that would give you an experience youll never forget. Dont worry its SE London so there will be quite a few black faces...
Otherwise start with a feisty local derby in Rome, Athens, Istanbul or Belgrade. Eyeopener indeed.

Somehow I feel the same talking the worlds biggets sport here as when i debate Cuba with Americans. Heaps of opinions - zero knowledge.


Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 51):

Yes. Perhaps here in the U.S. we have more of a "team spirit" going on. When I am thinking of my sports favs I not even thinking race or religion. I just don't care about such things to begin with.

You don't get it. Football isn't race or religion. Its tribal.
tribal first, second and third.
Race, religion doesn't matter as long s you're the same tribe.

And it differs 100% from US sport. We don't go to games to eat, drink and be entertained.
We go to create the entertainment ourselves.

Its two different concepts, one is business the other one is passion.
I love to attend a game or two of NHL or NBA. Its nice, people get entertained, eat and laugh, no one is hardcore supporter. After the game people walk home happily - win or loose.
That concept just doesn't exist in Europe.
In the US companies buys tickets they give to customers from game to game and there is no organised passion or supporter movements. No singing, no tifos, no capos and no away travel. people sit on their bums eating popcorn drinking watered down lager while in Europe the crowd is expected to make the difference.

I have seen something more similar to Europe in US college sports, minus the atmosphere. Its a better comparison I belive.



No One Likes Us - We Dont Care.
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39710 posts, RR: 75
Reply 50, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3674 times:

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 52):
First we refer to the sport as football.



You Brits were the ones that invented the term "soccer", not the Americans.
We just didn't care to change the name as you guys and the rest of the world did.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 52):
(not knowing what a hooligan is or look like)


Plenty come here to Thailand on holiday. They are not exactly the kinds of people I want to associate with.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 52):
Third, if you spend the majority of threads saying you're not interested in football


I hardly ever post in your soccer threads.
Perhaps you should spend time reading the links that me and OA260 posted in this thread that pertains to the topic of this thread. Not sure why you refuse to have a discussion about the topic at hand and chose to discredit what other members discuss despite the proof from various sources.

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 52):
Race, religion doesn't matter as long s you're the same tribe.


So explain cases where players are taunted with banana peelings and monkey chants by their own fans?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwpO-nnFY9g&feature=related



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinedcaviation From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 195 posts, RR: 0
Reply 51, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3642 times:

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 52):

Couldn't said it better.

As for the BS BBC movie. I was born and raised at one of the cities portrayed in the show.
Not Warszawa, not Lodz, not Krakow., but small Rzeszow. Why did they selected city of Rzeszow (population 200 000) to be paired with large cities? BBC did it because in Rzeszow they had derby game.
These two teams from my city have been arch enemies since 1945!

It shows bunch of people with ski masks, waiving huge flags and shunting. The thing is, that supporters from both teams will verbally fight at the stadium, and after the game police will escort 'Ultras' to their borough.
They don't fight people on the streets after the games. They might do "ustawke", which is 10 supporters from one team fighting 10 supporters from rival team, somewhere where nobody will see them. They have rules not to use guns, knifes or any other objects in the fights. If they want to kill themselves, fine - let them do it.

I used to live right by the stadium or CWKS Resovia Rzeszow (the one on BBC video), at moments you can actually see my old apartment building. I was supporting rival team of ZKS Stal Rzeszow. How the F. did I survived 18 years without being killed?

Anyway, back to the point. City of Rzeszow has few good colleges/universities. Students from around the world are attending these schools. Yet, I'm waiting to read that person of color was brutally beaten in my city.
Another point. My brother in law, and my niece's boyfriend are both not Caucasians. They stick out like a sore thumb on the streets of Poland. They just came back from 2 weeks vacations in Rzeszow. They lived within spitting distance to the stadium portrayed on the BBC show. I'll do you one better. They went to the Resovia stadium to watch football game, and also went to Stal Rzeszow stadium to watch speedway race (no , speedway is is not a redneck nascar race). Not only nothing has happened to them at both venues, but also nothing has happened to them during their 14 day stay at my city. And city of Rzeszow is only 45 minutes away from Ukrainian border.

Now please explain this to me. Why as a white person, I was twice mugged by african american person in Washington DC? Once in North East DC and once in South East DC.
Everyone knows who has any idea about DC, that NE and SE DC is primarily black area. I, as a white person ventured there and got mugged. Isn't it a hate crime? Racially motivated? White person stepping on black people territory and being mugged?
I don't think so. I think that I was in the wrong place at the wrong time. But following Superfly's theory, I was victim of a racially motivated mongers.


Superfly. You are keeping quiet about skin heads in USA, neo nazis and other gangs which are killing people based on color of their skin. You didn't even touch it with 10 feet pole. Why is that? Racism in US of A doesn't exist? All people are happy? No hate crimes? KKK is selling ice creams from the back of the truck now?
Like I've said earlier. If you are going to steer pail of crap in somebodys yard, first look around you.


User currently offlinedcaviation From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 195 posts, RR: 0
Reply 52, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3637 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 53):
So explain cases where players are taunted with banana peelings and monkey chants by their own fans?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwpO-nnFY9g&feature=related

Why you are showing us clips of Spanish intolerance? I thought that you've said that only Russia, Ukraine and "Other Eastern European countries" did that?
You see, thats where it came from. They've got the idea from the "tolerant" West.


User currently offlineEricR From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 53, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 3588 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 13):
Quoting Danny (Reply 11):
Please avoid generalizations like that.


What generalizations?
Quoting Superfly (Reply 13):

BTW, I have a friend that works for the US State Department and lived in Poland for a few years. It was not safe for her husband who is Chinese to roam freely throughout Poland by himself. They faced all sorts of discrimination from some of the locals.

Generalizations like the one you make above. Racism is a human fault/weakness. It is NOT associated with one country or region, though people love to make those type of generalizations. Racism exists in all continents - Africa, Asia, Europe, the Americas, etc. To say it is associated with one area of the world is pure ignorance.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 8):
Apparently the city center isn't safe either;
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25642116...ukraine-grapples-rise-hate-crimes/
Quoting Superfly (Reply 8):
Even high ranking diplomats aren't even safe.

http://articles.latimes.com/2005/mar/02/world/fg-briefs2.5
Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):
Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j59BiLwdNO8
Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IuOVgx3Zh6E&feature=related

Tell me what area of the world you are from, and I will be able to find similar articles or youtube videos.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39710 posts, RR: 75
Reply 54, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3536 times:

Quoting EricR (Reply 56):
It is NOT associated with one country or region,


You're going by false allegations and misinterpretations by what dcaviation, Danny and MillwallSean.
I NEVER said that this was ONLY a problem in one specific country. Yes racial hatred is worldwide. The discussion is about these attitudes that come out in these soccer games.

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 54):
Why as a white person, I was twice mugged by african american person in Washington DC? Once in North East DC and once in South East DC.


That sucks but what does that have to do with soccer? DC wouldn't be anymore safer for me than for you.

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 54):
But following Superfly's theory, I was victim of a racially motivated mongers.


"Theory"?
What "theory" are you talking about?

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 54):
You are keeping quiet about skin heads in USA, neo nazis and other gangs which are killing people based on color of their skin.


They are so far on the fringe of society and aren't attending major sporting events in large numbers. If they ever kill someone, they end up serving life in prison and not slapped with a small fine.

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 54):
Racism in US of A doesn't exist?


Who said it doesn't?
Where are you getting that from?

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 54):
If you are going to steer pail of crap in somebodys yard, first look around you.


You're the only person steering up crap. All I've done was cite a problem with this sport in Europe and backed it up with a news sources. All you've done is get all emotional and throw out insults. You sound no different than these hooligans in these news stories.

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 55):
Why you are showing us clips of Spanish intolerance? I thought that you've said that only Russia, Ukraine and "Other Eastern European countries" did that?


Looks to be widespread in Europe but as noted above, western European countries such as the UK have a better handle on the situation.
In case you forgot, the discussion is about racism in soccer and the potential dangers associated with these ultra-right nationalist hooligans that are out of control the Ukraine.
You're not helping the discussion when you're making stuff up and putting words in to people's mouth.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently onlinesbworcs From United Kingdom, joined Oct 2005, 836 posts, RR: 5
Reply 55, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3523 times:

Not sure if others have mentioned this but I find it strange that Ukraine has known problem with hoolaganism and racism and can co-host the tournament yet England was banned from even competing for the same problems?

What changed in the rules?



The best way forwards is upwards!
User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3508 posts, RR: 2
Reply 56, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3513 times:

Quoting MillwallSean (Reply 52):
Russian supporters kicked the living daylight out of a few polish guards as well.

Yeah, four Russian guys got a bit too much of vodka and caused a fight in a bar. Not the type of behaviour I approve but not a proof that the whole Eastern Europe is racist either.

And today we have seen the "western" German supporters throwing trash at Portuguese players.Shame!

Quoting EricR (Reply 56):
Racism is a human fault/weakness. It is NOT associated with one country or region

Exactly.

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 54):
As for the BS BBC movie.

As for the movie - we now have a statement from Aviram Baruchyan - an Israeli football player who plays in one of the Warsaw football clubs. He was interviewed by BBC crew making the infamous movie. He stated that he was very happy living in Poland, feels totally safe and was never bothered by anyone. Guess what - BBC cut him out of the movie!


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39710 posts, RR: 75
Reply 57, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3508 times:

Quoting Danny (Reply 59):

So why do you feel that the press is singling out Eastern European countries?

Quoting Danny (Reply 59):
Exactly.

We can all agree with that but it isn't the topic in this thread.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3508 posts, RR: 2
Reply 58, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3499 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 60):

Quoting Danny (Reply 59):

So why do you feel that the press is singling out Eastern European countries?

Because that is what BBC did. They did not look for the truth picture of the country. They wanted to show racism and were only looking for that. Unfortunately people led by their movie called for boycott of the EURO 2012. Shall we boycott the Olympics in London too? Because on YouTube there are hundreds of movies of racism in the UK.

You can search YouTube for "racism + any country" and for almost all countries you will find very disturbing movies. It's a worldwide problem. And I absolutely disagree that it is bigger in Poland than say UK, or Ireland or Germany or Italy or US etc. Its the same problem.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39710 posts, RR: 75
Reply 59, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3482 times:

Quoting Danny (Reply 61):
Because on YouTube there are hundreds of movies of racism in the UK.


No doubt about that and racism exist worldwide. Again, no one is denying that. The issue is with soccer.
In Europe it seems to come out in these soccer games.
I've been to the Olympics in Los Angeles (1984) and attended a soccer game in LA (many years ago) and San Jose. I never recall seeing this kind of behavior at any of these soccer games. The two soccer games I attended in California were against teams from Central America and the game I attended here last year was against a team from South Korea. Never saw groups of nationalist beating up people from other countries, never saw any Hitler salutes. It was people simply having a good time and cheering on their team.
It sounds like you're implying that the British are upset that they aren't hosting these soccer games and just want to dump on the Ukrainians. Sounds like one big mess.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineEricR From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 60, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3483 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 57):
You're going by false allegations and misinterpretations by what dcaviation, Danny and MillwallSean.
I NEVER said that this was ONLY a problem in one specific country.

No, I am not going by what others have said. I am going specifically by what you've said above. Your exact comment was:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 5):
Events such as soccer/football games in Eastern European cities draws attention to this very topic.
This is a problem all throughout Eastern Europe and I'm surprised at how many people in Western Europe are unaware of what's going on there.

You believe this issue is linked to Eastern Europe, but this issue transcends all nationalities. Fights amongst fans of national soccer teams occur everywhere in the world. You may not hear about fights that break out among fans such what happened recently against Egypt vs. Algeria because they do not make headline news in the West, but they happen just the same.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39710 posts, RR: 75
Reply 61, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3481 times:

Quoting EricR (Reply 63):
You may not hear about fights that break out among fans such what happened recently against Egypt vs. Algeria because they do not make headline news in the West, but they happen just the same.

So why is Eastern Europe being singled out?



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3508 posts, RR: 2
Reply 62, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3471 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 64):

Quoting EricR (Reply 63):
You may not hear about fights that break out among fans such what happened recently against Egypt vs. Algeria because they do not make headline news in the West, but they happen just the same.

So why is Eastern Europe being singled out?

I guess because the Euro2012 is here and not in some western European country as always. Plus the overall low level of media these days. You know - saying 50k people had a great fun and peacefully supported their teams is no news. A fight is news, racism - even better, that's a headliner.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39710 posts, RR: 75
Reply 63, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3455 times:

Quoting Danny (Reply 65):
I guess because the Euro2012 is here and not in some western European country as always. Plus the overall low level of media these days. You know - saying 50k people had a great fun and peacefully supported their teams is no news. A fight is news, racism - even better, that's a headliner.

I hope you're right. We shall see.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineEricR From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 64, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 3439 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 64):
So why is Eastern Europe being singled out?

I view it less as Eastern Europe being singled out and more as an issue (violence and soccer matches) being discussed. Eastern Europe just happens to be the location.

I think this exact topic could be replicated in a lot of countries.


User currently offlinedcaviation From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 195 posts, RR: 0
Reply 65, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3388 times:

Here are your family oriented events in United States. It took me 30 seconds to search for it on youtube. Superfly just wants to hear what he wants to hear. As he stated he went to couple of games years ago and he is now expert on the matter. Superfly, you are oblivious.

Family oriented shooting after NFL game.

http://www.nowpublic.com/sports/san-...ght-video-aug-20-2011-2828181.html

Baseball
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOOOltKAgRY&feature=related

US National team - Soccer
Poor latinos, american's cant handle the situation at the soccer game
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_vfwomuK3E8&feature=endscreen&NR=1

NBA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=daxn7rCowjI

NHL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YziQisI0QpU

MLS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlHd-pXr-So


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39710 posts, RR: 75
Reply 66, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3322 times:

Quoting EricR (Reply 67):
I view it less as Eastern Europe being singled out and more as an issue (violence and soccer matches) being discussed. Eastern Europe just happens to be the location.


But that's not how Sol Campbell and many of the players see this issue. Why do you think these players are expressing concern over the issue when this game is taking place in the Ukraine?

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 68):


Dude, relax. Why are you so angry?
None of those clips show large groups of people holding giant swastika flags and shouting racist slurs and racially motivated attacks like in Eastern Europe. You've just shown drunk people getting in to fights at games. No one ever said that sporting events in the US are peaceful. It's obvious you sympathize and support these racist attitudes so it's no wonder you were mugged DC if that story is even true. Go ahead and continue to live in denial.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently onlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7143 posts, RR: 3
Reply 67, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3293 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 69):
But that's not how Sol Campbell and many of the players see this issue.

Sol is long retired so his point of view is rather pointless, he's not affected by this, did he even have any experience playing in Ukraine, Poland or Russia?


User currently offlineL410Turbolet From Czech Republic, joined May 2004, 5684 posts, RR: 19
Reply 68, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3295 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 50):
Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 45):
If you make such a big deal out of racism

Sorry if anti racism comments offend you

Nice try taking my sentence out of context.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 50):
Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 45):
This sounds like ideas of some clueless EUrocrat who thinks that best way to solve anything is to plaster it with stupid posters, appoint a commission or two and have an "exhibition"...

Again sorry if anti racism campaigns offend you .

They don't offend me, they are just silly and useless waste of time and money. Perhaps having the EU posters all over Greece telling Greeks to work harder, not to cheat with their numbers, pay taxes and live within their means will miraculously save them from bankruptcy.  
Quoting Danny (Reply 59):
BBC cut him out of the movie!

This is not the 1940s when people all over occupied Europe risked their live lives to tune in to hear "This is London calling...". Today's BBC is full of people who can't even speak English properly and their biases are just too obvious.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 69):
It's obvious you sympathize and support these racist attitudes so it's no wonder you were mugged DC if that story is even true.

I think it's ridiculous to accuse anyone, who does not share your hysteria and idiotic generalizations, of sympathizing with the neonazis.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39710 posts, RR: 75
Reply 69, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3287 times:

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 71):
I think it's ridiculous to accuse anyone, who does not share your hysteria and idiotic generalizations

Even though I made it clear in my earlier post that I acknowledge that not everyone in Eastern Europe share these extremist views?



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39710 posts, RR: 75
Reply 70, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3271 times:

News storiesa coming out seem to validate what I've been saying and OA260 is correct.



http://www.independent.com.mt/news.asp?newsitemid=145746


http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/201...ia.2nd.ld.writethru.833/index.html


http://world.time.com/2012/06/08/eur...n-poland-clouds-soccer-tournament/

http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/...ry/2012/06/201268173624263692.html

I find it interesting that Al Jazeera gives the most insight on this issue and backs up a lot of what Danny was saying.

News agencies from all over the world seem to be saying the same exact thing.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26859 posts, RR: 58
Reply 71, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3241 times:

Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 71):
Nice try taking my sentence out of context.

Not at all you write your posts not me .  
Quoting L410Turbolet (Reply 71):
Perhaps having the EU posters all over Greece telling Greeks to work harder,

HAHA ,... again like always nothing to do with the topic in hand . Nice try though and shows again your lame attempt to insult and rise people but most of us laugh it off these days.

Lucky most decent people in society speak up against racism and don't try to compare things to other countries and religions when the topic in hand is actually Poland and Ukraine .

Quoting Superfly (Reply 73):
News storiesa coming out seem to validate what I've been saying and OA260 is correct.

Well we didnt need news reports to confirm it its well known and being discussed by the cat on the street. Any player who is racially abused has the right to walk off and his team should follow . Even if it wrecks the event this issue is more important than a game ! Some will not agree though but I guess we all have different morals in life. There should be more security in the stands and those caught removed and banned from the whole Euro 2012 events and have their passports / ID cards taken away so they cant travel . At a later date they should then be taken to court and jailed for minimum of 2 years as an example. Only when these countries take this as seriously as it should be taken will we get anywhere. You may not be able to catch them all but a hundred or so made an example of will do alot . They should be named and shamed in the newspapers with their photos. In a civil society these people should be looked upon as parriahs and Police should be actively hunting these people down rather than turning a blind eye or lapse investigations.

Quoting sbworcs (Reply 58):
Not sure if others have mentioned this but I find it strange that Ukraine has known problem with hoolaganism and racism and can co-host the tournament yet England was banned from even competing for the same problems?

What changed in the rules?

Money talks and morals go out the window . Then you have people who wont outright condemn racism and try to make excuses and compare to other countries . This country and that country have a problem too so we are not that bad ! Always worrying when people cant say ''YES we have a problem and it needs solved''.


User currently offlineMD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8502 posts, RR: 12
Reply 72, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 3211 times:

I enjoyed Millwall Sean's post #52. Here's a similar experience from the other side of the fence--a European looking a proper American football (the Iron Bowl).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7cl-f8NABMM


User currently offlinedcaviation From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 195 posts, RR: 0
Reply 73, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3007 times:

Superfly,

Read here what John Godson has to say. He's living in Poland for over 20 years. He is member of parliament for few years now.
I think that you are intelligent enough to translate it to English.
This is black person living in Poland commenting about racism in Poland, and BBC show about Polish and Ukrainian soccer fans.
Who do you think has more knowledge about this problem in Poland? John or Sol who saw only what BBC showed to him.

http://www.tokfm.pl/Tokfm/1,103454,1...okrzyki_biora_sie_z_niewiedzy.html


User currently onlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21530 posts, RR: 55
Reply 74, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2968 times:

There has been some violence in Warsaw today with Russian and Polish fans getting into it with each other. Police stopped a march of Russian fans enroute to the stadium. Arrests, injuries, etc. So...lovely.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 73):
I find it interesting that Al Jazeera gives the most insight on this issue

I find it interesting that you believe anything that Al Jazeera has to say.  

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39710 posts, RR: 75
Reply 75, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 2924 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 74):
Well we didnt need news reports to confirm it its well known and being discussed by the cat on the street.


Thanks for the update. That's good to know that people are aware of the problem.

Quoting OA260 (Reply 74):
Some will not agree though but I guess we all have different morals in life


  

Quoting OA260 (Reply 74):
In a civil society these people should be looked upon as parriahs and Police should be actively hunting these people down rather than turning a blind eye or lapse investigations.


  

Quoting dcaviation (Reply 76):
Read here what John Godson has to say.


I read it already a few days ago. He is correct however as a member of parliament, he has a lot of protections that the average Joe doesn't have. We ALL know that these racist hooligans do not represent the attitudes of most people in Eastern Europe but you can't deny the problem exist at these soccer games.
BTW, it would be nice if you could at least answer some of the questions I asked about.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinedc9northwest From Switzerland, joined Feb 2007, 2269 posts, RR: 7
Reply 76, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2912 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 78):
Thanks for the update. That's good to know that people are aware of the problem.

You may not know this, but soccer hooligans are regarded as social pariahs, even in Eastern Europe. Most of them are considered to be druggies, drunks, aggressive, right-wing scumbags. Trust me, people are aware of the problems associated with hooliganism and normal people avoid areas where they congregate so to not get in trouble. Because, if you piss them off, they certainly might attack, whether you're white, yellow, black or green. In that sense, they don't discriminate. They (try to) beat the shit out of everybody if given the chance.

Yeah, if you're wearing the team colors they might leave you alone... But then the other group of fans will step in.

These racist hooligans are on the fringe of society, unless you like to watch soccer in the non-central stands, which are certainly considered unsafe even by those attending a normal match.

They're racist, but that's just one of their huge social problems. Very few people look up to them or follow them as models.


User currently offlineEricR From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 77, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2912 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 69):
But that's not how Sol Campbell and many of the players see this issue. Why do you think these players are expressing concern over the issue when this game is taking place in the Ukraine?


The problem is that it is not limited to Eastern Europe as you believe. For example, in 2004 the United States played Mexico in Mexico. The Mexican fans chanted "Osama" in reference to Osama Bin Laden and did some other less than hospitable things. Link to article is below.

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/4236314/

I also presented you with another link showing the riots that broke out from a match between Egypt and Algeria. These kind of things happen all the time in soccer/football.

Millwallsean described it perfectly in rely 52 when he said that the sport is "tribal". It isn't about race or religion. However, the news reports like to describe it as racism in an attempt to sensationalize an issue in an attempt to generate higher ratings.

By the way, I noticed you referenced CNN. I hardly consider CNN a good source of unbiased news anymore. All of their news stories are twisted into presenting a certain point of view. Long gone are the days when they aired news events. Today they take news stories and attempt to create an issue that is factually misleading or draw conclusions to issues based on limited information.

I realize this is slightly off topic, but I wanted to illustrate that there are very few sources of honest, non-judgemental reporting these days. Most media outlets only care about ratings these days, not accuracy.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39710 posts, RR: 75
Reply 78, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2902 times:

Quoting EricR (Reply 80):
The problem is that it is not limited to Eastern Europe as you believe.


...and I showed a news story from Spain identifying the problem there as well.

Quoting EricR (Reply 80):
It isn't about race or religion.


So explain the racist chants.

Quoting EricR (Reply 80):
By the way, I noticed you referenced CNN. I hardly consider CNN


I can dig up stories from every news agency around the world including Russia, Ukraine, Poland that will say the exact same thing. So don't let the CNN link throw you off and divert the topic at hand. The racist problems at soccer games in Eastern Europe is a symptom of a completely separate issue not related to football at all. That is why this is getting so much attention.
Perhaps you should read up on this before deny a problem you know nothing about.
From your article about the game in Mexico, I didn't see anything about Mexicans beating up people for having different skin color.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineEricR From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 79, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2871 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 81):
Quoting EricR (Reply 80):
It isn't about race or religion.


So explain the racist chants.
Quoting Superfly (Reply 81):
From your article about the game in Mexico, I didn't see anything about Mexicans beating up people for having different skin color.


Come on now. On one hand you ask me to explain the racist chants, so I provide you with a link that shows how this occurs in other areas of the world as well - and your response is that it is different because no one was beat up? Racism can be verbal as well as physical.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 81):
Perhaps you should read up on this before deny a problem you know nothing about.


Nice try, but I never said the problem didn't exist. I said this problem isn't limited to Eastern Europe as you so devoutly believe. It happens everywhere and the competitive, nationalistic nature of soccer amplifies the problem.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39710 posts, RR: 75
Reply 80, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2863 times:

Quoting EricR (Reply 82):
shows how this occurs in other areas of the world as well



"this"
What do you mean by "this"?

Quoting EricR (Reply 82):
I said this problem isn't limited to Eastern Europe as you so devoutly believe.


Again, I showed clips from Spain which is not Eastern Europe.

I find it suspect that you were so quick to believe what MillwanSean said at face value yet chose to start a fight with me, deny the problem, challenge and deny every single source I bring to the discussion.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineEricR From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 81, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2834 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 83):
I find it suspect that you were so quick to believe what MillwanSean said at face value yet chose to start a fight with me, deny the problem, challenge and deny every single source I bring to the discussion.

Why do you find that suspect?

I never denied the problem (though somehow you believe that I did). All I am saying is that this issue is not limted to Eastern Europe. Yes, you did show clips of Spain, but you also indicated that this issue is linked to Europe and soccer games. You also mentioned that hosting an international soccer event in any Eastern European country is a stupid idea.

My point is that if you believe racism in soccer is limited to games in Eastern Europe, then you are misinformed and I've provided you with examples to illustrate this fact. You are drawing conclusions only based on what you hear, but what you hear is only a fraction of what actually occurs. When issues such as this happen in countries less known in the western media, they do not receive the same level of coverage (if any at all).

Quoting Superfly (Reply 9):
Hosting an international soccer event in the Ukraine, Russia or any Eastern European country is a really stupid idea.
Quoting Superfly (Reply 62):
No doubt about that and racism exist worldwide. Again, no one is denying that. The issue is with soccer.
In Europe it seems to come out in these soccer games.


[Edited 2012-06-12 16:58:46]

User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39710 posts, RR: 75
Reply 82, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2825 times:

Quoting EricR (Reply 84):
Yes, you did show clips of Spain
Quoting EricR (Reply 84):
You also mentioned that hosting an international soccer event in any Eastern European country

Can't make heads or tails of what you're trying to say here. Seems like you're dancing around the main issue that has been of concern in the international community.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineEricR From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 83, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2817 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 85):
Quoting EricR (Reply 84):
Yes, you did show clips of Spain
Quoting EricR (Reply 84):
You also mentioned that hosting an international soccer event in any Eastern European country

Can't make heads or tails of what you're trying to say here. Seems like you're dancing around the main issue that has been of concern in the international community.

That is because you conveniently take quotes out of context. I suggest reading the full quote below.

Quoting EricR (Reply 84):
I never denied the problem (though somehow you believe that I did). All I am saying is that this issue is not limted to Eastern Europe. Yes, you did show clips of Spain, but you also indicated that this issue is linked to Europe and soccer games. You also mentioned that hosting an international soccer event in any Eastern European country is a stupid idea.

My point is that if you believe racism in soccer is limited to games in Eastern Europe, then you are misinformed and I've provided you with examples to illustrate this fact. You are drawing conclusions only based on what you hear, but what you hear is only a fraction of what actually occurs. When issues such as this happen in countries less known in the western media, they do not receive the same level of coverage (if any at all).


User currently offlinedcaviation From United States of America, joined Aug 2011, 195 posts, RR: 0
Reply 84, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2795 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 78):
I read it already a few days ago. He is correct however as a member of parliament, he has a lot of protections that the average Joe doesn't have. We ALL know that these racist hooligans do not represent the attitudes of most people in Eastern Europe but you can't deny the problem exist at these soccer games.
BTW, it would be nice if you could at least answer some of the questions I asked about.

Superfly,

FYI. John doesn't have any protection of Secret Service (BOR in Poland). In Poland its not like in USA that all congressmen have to have protection. Its much safer in Poland than it is in USA for color people.
I'm not saying that the problem doesn't exist. I'm just saying that its on the same level as in other countries. Like John said, most of the people who are racist in Poland they don't understand the concept, they just follow the people who are oblivious. As a black person, he never felt unsafe in Poland. Those are his own words. He is AFRICAN man living in Poland for 20 years and now he is member of congress.
Those assholes from football stadiums are Everywhere. Not only in Poland. They are part of England, Germany, Spain and any other country. Poland is one of the newest countries where immigration is booming, and lots of those dickheads don't know how to act. How do you name England where people of color are on a daily basis and they are being attacked?
I'm not talking about the stadiums, I'm talking about the streets. They should be more understanding then developing countries.
I guess you don't see that.

Also, you didn't comment about my brother in law and my nieces boyfriend. They are both people of color and they HAD LOTS OF FUN in Poland in the last couple of weeks. They were in the city displayed on the BBC show. My father took them to the soccer game and speedway game (CWKS Resovia and ZKS Stall Rzeszow stadiums). They loved the experience/ They are well and alive.
The only thing that they complained about Poland was public roads. Nobody ever said anything bad to them. They said that people were very friendly. They went to Rzeszow, Krakow, Wroclaw, Lublin and Warszawa. Whats up with that?

Before Poland - Russia game, they arrested 56 people for fighting. All were whites. As you can see, its not about the skin color, its mostly about the team colors.

PO


User currently offlinedetroitflyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 391 posts, RR: 0
Reply 85, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2787 times:

Well for what its worth, there was already an incident a couple days ago, about the Netherlands practice squad having to move, due to what some of them percieved as racist chants.
Now this happens: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18409916
UEFA investigation racism (chants/noises) directed at black players from the Czech republic and Italy.



Boiler Up!!!
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39710 posts, RR: 75
Reply 86, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2785 times:

This discussion is going nowhere, just in circles.   
Despite the overwhelming evidence and news sources - including news sources from Eastern Europe there are people that are going to dance around the issue, get caught up in semantics, divert the topic and pretend that no such problem exist or pretend that this problem is exactly the same worldwide which is clearly not true.

Quoting detroitflyer (Reply 88):
Well for what its worth, there was already an incident a couple days ago, about the Netherlands practice squad having to move, due to what some of them percieved as racist chants.
Now this happens: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/18409916
UEFA investigation racism (chants/noises) directed at black players from the Czech republic and Italy.



Cue up all the deniers that will make excuses.
It all must be a conspiracy to make Eastern Europe look bad. It must be the fault of all of those bourgeois in the west.  



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineDanny From Poland, joined Apr 2002, 3508 posts, RR: 2
Reply 87, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2763 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 89):
This discussion is going nowhere, just in circles.   

We finally agree. Clearly yesterday incidents had nothing to do with racism but some people know their own story and will not be convinced by facts.

Today my Irish friends arrive to Gdansk and tomorrow we're going to enjoy together the Ireland Vs. Spain game. I'm sure this will be a lot of fun, no point participating in this pointless thread then.

  


User currently offlineCPH-R From Denmark, joined May 2001, 5981 posts, RR: 3
Reply 88, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2759 times:

I love the opening line of that article..

Quote:
A Spanish fans' group has said some of its supporters abused Manchester City and Italy striker Mario Balotelli.

.. those pesky Eastern European Spaniards  


User currently onlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7143 posts, RR: 3
Reply 89, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2738 times:

There was a massive fight between Russian and Polish fans yesterday, nothing to do with racism, just a big rolling fight and riot.

User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 26859 posts, RR: 58
Reply 90, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2685 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 92):
There was a massive fight between Russian and Polish fans yesterday, nothing to do with racism, just a big rolling fight and riot.

Link to the incident here .

Street fighters: Polish fans attack a Russian supporter outside the stadium in Warsaw



Euro 2012: Hundreds of fans go on rampage through Warsaw ahead of Poland-Russia match
Uefa’s worst nightmare became a violent reality as supporters from Poland and Russia were involved in a series of sickening clashes

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/foo...-ahead-of-Poland-Russia-match.html


User currently offlineSA7700 From South Africa, joined Dec 2003, 3431 posts, RR: 26
Reply 91, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 5 days 2 hours ago) and read 2681 times:
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