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Public Sector Workers Fleeing Unions In Wisconsin  
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8793 posts, RR: 24
Posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3801 times:

Now we see why Big Unions are so set against Gov. Scott Walker and set up next week's recall vote. One of Walker's reforms was to eliminate mandatory union membership and dues deducted straight from your salary. Now that it's no longer obligatory, former members are voting with their feet and leaving the unions.

online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304821304577436462413999718.html

Quote:
Public-employee unions in Wisconsin have experienced a dramatic drop in membership—by more than half for the second-biggest union—since a law championed by Republican Gov. Scott Walker sharply curtailed their ability to bargain over wages and working conditions.

...

Wisconsin membership in the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees—the state's second-largest public-sector union after the National Education Association, which represents teachers—fell to 28,745 in February from 62,818 in March 2011

Big Union is all about money, folks.

[Edited 2012-06-02 11:28:44]


Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
180 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21529 posts, RR: 55
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3795 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Now that it's no longer obligatory, former members are voting with their feet and leaving the unions.

Or it might be because the unions have been neutered. Why pay dues to a union if it's not legally able to do anything for you?

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8793 posts, RR: 24
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 3787 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
Or it might be because the unions have been neutered. Why pay dues to a union if it's not legally able to do anything for you?

You don't bail in the middle of a fight. I think the vast majority of those who bailed probably wanted to bail for years, and did not think that their dues were worth the money.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2713 posts, RR: 8
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3754 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
. I think the vast majority of those who bailed probably wanted to bail for years, and did not think that their dues were worth the money.




My thoughts exactly. And the very reason that Walker will still win big on Tuesday. The Union bosses know this is the beginning for the end for public sector unions.

In Louisiana this year they are starting a statewide voucher program that will allow students of parent's who make below $60K to receive vouchers to transfer to private schools including religious schools of any-kind. The teacher's union's are thinking about a law suit butI I do not think they will try.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8414 posts, RR: 3
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3729 times:

Just wait until it happens in California. Regular people do not support the wealthy and powerful unions. Ideally wealth is earned from, not taxed from, regular people.

It is really a subject for Democratic primaries; there are plenty of pro-choice, liberal people who do not support public sector unions. Children in inner cities are (as Romney correctly noted) receiving a third world education thanks to a stranglehold on education budgets by big union. In Palo Alto, crime is increasing because the police force is cut way down from prior levels -- because retirees make $95k pensions on average, after making $109k on average in wages. LIberal people do not support these things, or in any case, their support is vulnerable.

I agree Walker will win.


User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3712 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Big Union is all about money, folks.

And Big Corporations are not ? Or are they all about caring for the po' folk ?

More like, Big Union is all about political influence. From what I can gather in our snowy tundra, Walker will likely keep his job, but he seems such an arrogant ass I hope the good people of Wisconsin give him the bum's rush.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3001 posts, RR: 8
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3704 times:

As soon as I entered this thread, the only thing that came to my mind was this video.


"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2713 posts, RR: 8
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 3674 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 5):
From what I can gather in our snowy tundra, Walker will likely keep his job

He will win easily.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 5):
Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Big Union is all about money, folks.


And Big Corporations are not ?

The problem is that the unions are not in it for the people, they are in it for the money and the power for themselves. Many workers feel like the work for two masters. And the one master only takes money and gives us nothing back.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3001 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3633 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 7):
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 5):
Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Big Union is all about money, folks.


And Big Corporations are not ?

The problem is that the unions are not in it for the people, they are in it for the money and the power for themselves. Many workers feel like the work for two masters. And the one master only takes money and gives us nothing back.

And...you still don't see the resemblance between that analogy and a corporation?



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2713 posts, RR: 8
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3612 times:

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 8):
And...you still don't see the resemblance between that analogy and a corporation?

Yes, but I only want one master and that would be the company that supplies my paycheck. The union for the most part is just leeching from the company and the employees they are supposed to serve.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6586 posts, RR: 24
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3603 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 2):
You don't bail in the middle of a fight.

The fight is over. These folks are just trying to get a few extra bucks before the big cuts come.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 9):
The union for the most part is just leeching from the company and the employees they are supposed to serve.

Maybe, but as unions have faded away so have people's wages and benefits. It's no surprise that states with the least unionization have the lowest wages and lowest standards of living.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7233 posts, RR: 17
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 3603 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Big Union is all about money, folks.

Unions are more or less gangster interest groups who are totally obsolete from their original purpose. If they practiced what they preached, their leaders wouldn't be billionaires. So much corruption in the unions. So pathetic.

Quoting Mir (Reply 1):
Why pay dues to a union if it's not legally able to do anything for you?

They don't need to anymore. Non-union workers are worse off than union workers, but non-union workers want union workers to stop being so greedy.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 7):
He will win easily.

Agreed, most my Wisconsin friends are so livid at the unions.



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlinethegreatRDU From United States of America, joined Mar 2006, 2310 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3589 times:

I'm not even worried about it...Scott Walker's got it in the bag...
Public sector unions are just no good, and in Wisconsin's case a very vocal minority



Our Returning Champion
User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3001 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3585 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 9):
Yes, but I only want one master and that would be the company that supplies my paycheck. The union for the most part is just leeching from the company and the employees they are supposed to serve.

OK, well consider this scenario. Let's say you enter a company. You've been working your butt off for years, you become a reputable employee, and the company is in excellent shape, so much that it is making record profits. However, that record profit doesn't make it back to the employees who are the front line of the company and instead is focused among a handful of persons inside an office building hundreds of miles away.

Would you:
a) Ignore the fact that you deserve, at the very least, a raise in your salary, a promotion, or more benefits
b) Use your success (and the company's) to ask for the above?

I admit some have gone overboard demanding when they have enough. However, I don't see why a union can't demand for top officials to take a pay cut or share the wealth when the workers themselves lose benefits. Consider American Airlines for instance, back when Carty was CEO. To save the airline, he asked employees to take pay cuts, to which they agreed. Behind their backs, however, executive compensations were in the making. How can we not justify a union in this scenario? Why should employees, then, have to go through the hardship of a reduction of salary when at an office far away a couple of people are getting thousands of times more in benefits?

So if the company is doing well, I don't see why the wealth can't be shared among all of its employees from the CEO to the janitor. In that sense, having a union "leech" from the company is nothing wrong as long as its not overdone. Likewise, if the company is doing bad but one segment continues to act as if nothing out of the ordinary has happened (ie. board members getting juicy bonuses while planning cuts for the company), the union serves to oversee that it's an all or nothing deal.



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlinecpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 38
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3570 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Big Union is all about money, folks.

I'm a member of a large union where membership is voluntary. It's not all about money - it's about preventing exploitation of workers by unscrupulous types. Even senior management themselves are members of the union for that reason.

One example is a very well qualified and excellent worker who kept being put on short term contracts through all manners of HR tricks - for an absurdly long period of time. Finally, the position was made permanent after intervention by the union - since it was clearly a permanent role.

Other examples of what the union I'm in does is sorting out pay and leave discrepancies. When they happen, it's much easier to let the union deal with it rather than dealing with it yourself. When the union raises the issue it gets sorted out quick smart. If you complain about it yourself though, it is a different story.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 11):
Unions are more or less gangster interest groups who are totally obsolete from their original purpose. If they practiced what they preached, their leaders wouldn't be billionaires.

Come over here and I might you to the two that run the union I'm in. You might be surprised - they are ordinary hard working people like the members they represent. You'd find them a breath of fresh air.

[Edited 2012-06-02 20:09:35]

User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13040 posts, RR: 12
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3568 times:

I would suggest several issues at play here. From the article excerpt in the initial post, it seems to be the general state workers who have ditched their union membership and not the police, building trades and teachers unions.

Many union state workers are probably angry that the union leadership didn't fight off Walker and the Republicans right up front and prevent the cuts or went along with them to keep their jobs, so members are telling off the union leaders that they are unhappy with them.
Many union workers may be trying to do anything to keep their jobs. By leaving the unions they may believe they will be showing loyalty to their bosses and supervisors who may be in politically appointed jobs and have the power over their continued employment
Some union members maybe just so desperate to save money - which could be $50 or more per month - especially with the cuts they are facing.
State unionized workers are taxpayers too and want to see tax cuts that can help them.
Many may also be supportive of many other social and political beliefs of the Republicans and don't want their union dues going to the 'tax and spend liberals' Democrats the unions tend to support with money and more.
Some white males and females may be rejecting unions as the unions tend to be supportive of affirmative action, preferences to non-white persons for promotions and job opportunities.

The busting of the unions could have bad effects. More will not have union protections from politicalized appointments or keeping their jobs. What about the teacher who is told to teach creationism or the clerk who blows the whistle on some politically appointed supervisor who is placing poliltical connected persons, friends and family in jobs or promotions instead of fair opportunities for all. What about people who have worked for years, expcting to see a decent pension seeing it wiped out? Some of the issues facing unions and their workers come from the excesses of unions themselves and corrupt leadership. But without unions in the end the public will suffer.


User currently offlinecpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 38
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3563 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 15):
politicalized appointments
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 15):
bosses and supervisors who may be in politically appointed jobs and have the power over their continued employment

Those two things are huge problems. Appointments to those kinds of positions should be on merit, rather than being politically motivated. But it'll never happen - because political parties will always do that, and the supporters of political parties always embrace it as a way of extending the power and influence of their favourite political party.

While governments exist, that will always happen.

Governments always want their own friends in positions of power. It always happens, especially when governments change. They will always get rid of the existing heads of government departments, no matter how effective those people were.

Sometimes, rarely - miracles do happen and effective people do manage to retain their positions. But it's the exception, rather than the general rule.


User currently offlinedfwrevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 962 posts, RR: 51
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3555 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 10):
Maybe, but as unions have faded away so have people's wages and benefits.

Union membership peaked in the late 40s. Americans of all income levels have better wages and benefits than they did in the Truman era.  
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 10):
It's no surprise that states with the least unionization have the lowest wages and lowest standards of living.

Horray for sweeping generalizations with no context. States with low unionization also tend to have lower cost of living, so your wages go further. Right now I'm paying through the nose to live in Massachusetts and have no better "standard of living" than when I lived in Texas.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 3):
In Louisiana this year they are starting a statewide voucher program that will allow students of parent's who make below $60K to receive vouchers to transfer to private schools including religious schools of any-kind. The teacher's union's are thinking about a law suit butI I do not think they will try.

IMO, U.S. politics is about to enter a fascinating era. While Congress has essentially avoided taking dramatic action toward fiscal stability, states have been charting bold and divergent paths. States like NJ, WI, SC, and LA have pressed major conservative initiatives like checking public unions, aggressively balancing budgets, and privatizing public education. Even Cuomo in NY has quietly used conservative means to restore growth. Then you have CA and IL basically doubling-down on fiscal liberalism. In a few years, we will know whose model is the better path to success, and that will put a lot of pressure on Congress to get out of deadlock.


User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3537 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 11):
Unions are more or less gangster interest groups who are totally obsolete from their original purpose. If they practiced what they preached, their leaders wouldn't be billionaires.

Care to provide an example of a union leader who is a billionaire ?

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 17):
States with low unionization also tend to have lower cost of living, so your wages go further.

So being poor in a state with no infrastructure balances the equation ?

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 17):
Right now I'm paying through the nose to live in Massachusetts and have no better "standard of living" than when I lived in Texas.

Move back to Texas then.

[Edited 2012-06-02 20:45:35]


Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11533 posts, RR: 15
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 3504 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 3):
In Louisiana this year they are starting a statewide voucher program that will allow students of parent's who make below $60K to receive vouchers

So, how are those hundreds of thousands of vouchers being paid for?

Quoting Flighty (Reply 4):
Children in inner cities are (as Romney correctly noted) receiving a third world education thanks to a stranglehold on education budgets by big union.

Actually, no. It is because there is no money from taxes to give to schools. And police. And fire fighters. It has nothing to do with unions and more to do with the ultra wealthy not paying their fair share of taxes.

Look at it this way: If the ultra wealthy like Sam Walton and Mitt Romney really had crated jobs from their wealth in this country, the unemployment rate would be near zero, schools would be drowning in cash, and no one would have to worry about health care at all ever. That is the right-wing train of thought. Why, then, is unemployment at 8.2%, schools closing, and emergency rooms still the best way to recieve any care at all?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8793 posts, RR: 24
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3455 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 11):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 7):
He will win easily.

Agreed, most my Wisconsin friends are so livid at the unions.

Don't be so sure. The general population will turn out in their usual 50% or so participation rate, but the unions will have 99% of their activists voting.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):
So, how are those hundreds of thousands of vouchers being paid for?

Diverting money from the Public School system.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):
Actually, no. It is because there is no money from taxes to give to schools. And police. And fire fighters. It has nothing to do with unions and more to do with the ultra wealthy not paying their fair share of taxes.

Thank you Michael Moore. The per-student budget for 2011-2012 for the Detroit Public School system is a hair under $19,000 per year. I looked at the tuition rates for private schools in the area, and the Public schools seem to cost right about the same. The only private school that cost more in the area that I could find was a boarding/day school that had their own olympic pools, and a golf course.

I'm still curious how you can say that the wealthy don't pay their fair share of taxes when they basically pay all of the taxes.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2713 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3437 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):
So, how are those hundreds of thousands of vouchers being paid for?

The voucher money is diverted from the public school the child was attending

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
Thank you Michael Moore. The per-student budget for 2011-2012 for the Detroit Public School system is a hair under $19,000 per year.

It is not what is spent it is how it is spent.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6586 posts, RR: 24
Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3425 times:

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 17):
Horray for sweeping generalizations with no context.

It may be a sweeping generalization, but overall it is true. The conservative red states have lower standards of living, higher rates of poverty, lower rates of educational attainment, lower life expectancies and a higher reliance on federal welfare.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
The per-student budget for 2011-2012 for the Detroit Public School system is a hair under $19,000 per year. I looked at the tuition rates for private schools in the area, and the Public schools seem to cost right about the same.

It's easy to keep your costs down when you can pick and choose who you want to admit. This is why vouchers will never work because private schools will never take the "problem" kids. They'll reject them and then they'll be dumped back into public schools that have bee depleted.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
I'm still curious how you can say that the wealthy don't pay their fair share of taxes when they basically pay all of the taxes.

Note, he said "ultra wealthy". Mitt Romney paid a lower percentage in taxes than I did, even though I make far less than Mitt Romney did.


User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2713 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3407 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 22):
This is why vouchers will never work because private schools will never take the "problem" kids. They'll reject them and then they'll be dumped back into public schools that have bee depleted.

But it will work for the kid who does get to leave the crappy public school. So at least they all will not have to suffer.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 22):
". Mitt Romney paid a lower percentage in taxes than I did, even though I make far less than Mitt Romney did.

Seeing how in 2010 Romney made $0 dollars of wage income I believe your statement to be false.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11533 posts, RR: 15
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3402 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
I'm still curious how you can say that the wealthy don't pay their fair share of taxes when they basically pay all of the taxes.

If they pay "all the taxes" (your words, not mine) why are there no jobs? Why are the schools in disrepair? Why are police and fire fighters being cut? Why are the roads so bad?

Here's why: There are only a few thousand of them paying 15% or less once a year. Some even get that back! Constrast that to the millions of us paying 35% or more every week or two from our paychecks.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
Diverting money from the Public School system.

Why even bother to have private schools, then? Besides, in private schools, a corporation decides curriculum. Meaning: if a corporation decides they want to rewrite history, they can and no one can do anything about it. If a corporation decides to teach creationism instead of evolution and delcare evolution utterly false, they can. As if our kids are not dumb enough, they will be dumbed down even further with corporate, private schools. That sounds just great, doesn't it?



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3001 posts, RR: 8
Reply 25, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3438 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 24):
Besides, in private schools, a corporation decides curriculum. Meaning: if a corporation decides they want to rewrite history, they can and no one can do anything about it. If a corporation decides to teach creationism instead of evolution and delcare evolution utterly false, they can. As if our kids are not dumb enough, they will be dumbed down even further with corporate, private schools. That sounds just great, doesn't it?

Actually, not true, at least not everywhere. The private school MUST set a curriculum based on the state's department of education. If the school is a religious one, religion should only be focused on that course specifically. In biology, the theory of evolution is just like Newton's Laws in physics: you cannot teach it any other way. The teacher might disagree (though why would he/she teach something that goes against what he/she believes in is baffling), but it is the teacher's responsibility to teach every subject as it is stipulated.

The only subject here that is prone to manipulation is history, but then again, history has always been a debatable topic: what really happened before we were born? Did things happen like they are told or is it only just the writer's side of the story?



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 26, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3443 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
Don't be so sure. The general population will turn out in their usual 50% or so participation rate, but the unions will have 99% of their activists voting.

If a union member is voting, then he is an "activist" ? What about someone (non-union) voting against recall. Why is he/she not an "activist"? One presumes for the Tea party.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 22):
It may be a sweeping generalization, but overall it is true. The conservative red states have lower standards of living, higher rates of poverty, lower rates of educational attainment, lower life expectancies and a higher reliance on federal welfare.

   From the extensive time I spent in North Carolina, I'd have to agree, y'all.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 22):
It's easy to keep your costs down when you can pick and choose who you want to admit. This is why vouchers will never work because private schools will never take the "problem" kids. They'll reject them and then they'll be dumped back into public schools that have bee depleted.

Correct. "Problem" students gobble up a huge amount of the teachers time, thus limiting the amount of productive teaching time for the great majority of the student body. My sister-in-law taught high school in suburban Vancouver and I can tell you checking bathrooms for kids injecting (both boys and girls) caused her no end of stress and guilt re not addressing the majority students' needs.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 24):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
I'm still curious how you can say that the wealthy don't pay their fair share of taxes when they basically pay all of the taxes.

If they pay "all the taxes" (your words, not mine) why are there no jobs? Why are the schools in disrepair? Why are police and fire fighters being cut? Why are the roads so bad?

Indeed. Why are some towns in Georgia actually going naked ? (No police, no fire) But at least it's a "right to work" state. That's if there are any jobs.

Keep in mind, this is not just an American problem. It's a global problem. In Canada we have many of the same situations, perhaps not to the extent that you guys do, but they're there. But somehow the right wingers (or perhaps our now seemingly corporate government) have sold the public (or maybe sold the media) on the need to cut cut cut.

As for Europe, yikes. Right wingers increasingly coming to the fore (France perhaps being an exception). Not a coincidence, I think, but also an increasing emergence and acceptance of neo-Nazi movements. Not a comforting thought.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 24):
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
Diverting money from the Public School system.

Why even bother to have private schools, then? Besides, in private schools, a corporation decides curriculum. Meaning: if a corporation decides they want to rewrite history, they can and no one can do anything about it. If a corporation decides to teach creationism instead of evolution and delcare evolution utterly false, they can. As if our kids are not dumb enough, they will be dumbed down even further with corporate, private schools. That sounds just great, doesn't it?


Again agreed. Corporations really should have no say in curriculum. From where I am, and accuse me of being as elitist as Obama may be, but a traditional liberal arts education is still the best way to go, with curricula decided by a "committee of elders", if you will. People who have distinguished themselves in education. hand it over to Big Money and you might as well hand government over entirely to Big Money (instead of only partially, which we have now).



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlinedfwrevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 962 posts, RR: 51
Reply 27, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3463 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 18):
So being poor in a state with no infrastructure balances the equation ?

Texas has no infrastructure? You can't be serious.  
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 18):
Move back to Texas then.

I absolutely will when I finish the temporary assignment that brought me here. I take it you are unaware that Americans are doing exactly what you suggest and moving out of blue states toward red states. Literally millions of people have left CA, MI, and NY in the last decade.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 22):
It may be a sweeping generalization, but overall it is true. The conservative red states have lower standards of living, higher rates of poverty, lower rates of educational attainment, lower life expectancies and a higher reliance on federal welfare.

It's obvious that you haven't considered any normalizing factors. Take education. Texas has lower standardized testing scores than Wisconsin. Stop there and you completely miss the bigger picture. In reality, every demographic in Texas outperforms its Wisconsin counterpart. However, whites outperform Hispanics, and Texas has a vastly larger Hispanic population. Wisconsin only achieves a higher average than Texas because it is "more white," even though whites in Texas are better educated.

Look at other factors like climate, demographics, traditional reliance on agriculture, percent of English first language, and your misconceptions stop looking "overall true."

[Edited 2012-06-03 09:26:03]

User currently offlinedfwrevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 962 posts, RR: 51
Reply 28, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3442 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 24):
If they pay "all the taxes" (your words, not mine) why are there no jobs?

There a hundred plus million people in the workforce. You can't be taken seriously when you say things like this.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 24):
Why are the schools in disrepair?

Not because of any lack of funding. Like health care, the U.S. outspends virtually all other developed nations on a per student basis. We have a large segment of the population that doesn't value education just like we have a large segment of the population that doesn't value taking basic preventative healthcare steps.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 24):
Why are police and fire fighters being cut?

Because their wages and benefits are ridiculous.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 24):
Why are the roads so bad?

They are bad in the places that made road repairs a low priority.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 24):
Here's why: There are only a few thousand of them paying 15% or less once a year. Some even get that back! Constrast that to the millions of us paying 35% or more every week or two from our paychecks.

Capital gains income deserves special treatment versus ordinary income in our market-driven economy. Setting that aside, you again don't know basic facts about the economy, in this case the tax code. Those with significant capital gains income may be required to make a quarterly payment of estimated tax to the IRS or be faced with penalties.

You are also misrepresenting the tax rate on middle-class income earners, it is far from the 35% rate on top income earners. For median income earners, the federal income tax rate is about 15%.

[Edited 2012-06-03 09:57:33]

User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21529 posts, RR: 55
Reply 29, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3438 times:

Quoting cpd (Reply 14):
I'm a member of a large union where membership is voluntary. It's not all about money - it's about preventing exploitation of workers by unscrupulous types.

But then how do you prevent people free-riding off of the union's work without paying dues? That's the real problem with voluntary unions (an idea which, in principle, I agree with, but it becomes very difficult in practice).

Quoting windy95 (Reply 23):
But it will work for the kid who does get to leave the crappy public school. So at least they all will not have to suffer.

Or you could just make the public schools better. And then nobody would have to suffer.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 30, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3435 times:

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 27):
Texas has no infrastructure? You can't be serious.

Sure it does, in many areas. But look at large swathes of Georgia and Bama.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 27):
I take it you are unaware that Americans are doing exactly what you suggest and moving out of blue states toward red states. Literally millions of people have left CA, MI, and NY in the last decade.

I am aware that there has been outmigration from these states. To where, I am not certain.

Look at Canada for a change: the largest migration in the country's history has been from Central Canada to the West. Manitoba: socialist government, Saskatchewan: was socialist, now conservative, rich in resources, Alberta: "soft" conservative, also rich in resources, British Columbia: liberal, ,might as well be socialist (and will be after next spring's election).

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 27):
Look at other factors like climate, demographics, traditional reliance on agriculture, percent of English first language, and your misconceptions stop looking "overall true."

Looking at the eastern part of the sunbelt:
climate => increasingly hot and dry, leading to agriculture declining. You can only pull so much from the aquifer.
% of Eng. 1st langauge => I think in Texas now it's a race between English and Spanish. Mexico might not get it back legally, but functionally perhaps
demographics => the Hispanics out-birth Anglos by a wide margin



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2165 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3415 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 30):
Sure it does, in many areas. But look at large swathes of Georgia and Bama.

And large swaths of blue states like California, Illinois, and Upstate NY. Utter boondocks and just as full of rednecks.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 30):
I am aware that there has been outmigration from these states. To where, I am not certain.

They're certainly not shuffling between each other. Look at the states that have population gains. They are overwhelmingly red.


User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6075 posts, RR: 29
Reply 32, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3411 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
Thank you Michael Moore. The per-student budget for 2011-2012 for the Detroit Public School system is a hair under $19,000 per year

What is the source on that? I am a teacher in a fairly well off district in metro Detroit and our funding is less than 1/2 of that. I have never heard that figure before. If you include federal money you may be able to get that high, but they get less than 1/2 that from the state.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 23):
But it will work for the kid who does get to leave the crappy public school. So at least they all will not have to suffer.

Be careful what you wish for. I worked in a charter school that was just as crappy as Detroit Public Schools and it is now closed. Sure, the modern building looked good, but the students were terrible. I can't tell you how many parents told me how happy they were to take their kids out of DPS, but after a while you began to see it was their children who were making DPS terrible.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 26):
From where I am, and accuse me of being as elitist as Obama may be, but a traditional liberal arts education is still the best way to go, with curricula decided by a "committee of elders", if you will.

Liberal arts education is a waste of time for a lot of people. Students who show a desire need to be steered into the trades. A guy who is a car mechanic is a lot better equipped to make money than somebody with a creative writing degree.

I usually don't support my union on a lot of things, but I do agree with them on somethings. I worked in a charter school and the I know a lot of people who do/did and they are usually terrible as far as how employees are treated. The best teacher and administrators leave because the pay sucks. You can't expect high quality teachers to stick around if they earn less than what you can earn working at some lame call center. The charter company I worked for had no system in place for pay raises because nobody ever worked there long enough to earn a pay raise, at 6 years I was their longest standing employee. I got a couple of raises only because I brought it to their attention that I still worked there and my pay was just moved up to whatever the base rate was at the time. I left when I finally figured out that all of the Career & Technical Education money we were supposed to be putting into the CTE program was just going into the general fund, which is against the law, and nobody cared because the more money we got the higher the 20% cut for the charter school company was. I was also disgusted that when we built a new building that everyone who got a contract for the building and various services were all related to the charter school company's owners, as were all of the school board members.

People want to talk about schools wasting taxpayer dollars, but I never saw such waste as I did in the charter school business.

A lot of people bitch that school teachers make too much and get a lot of vacation time, keep in mind that, in Michigan any way, we only get paid for time we actually work. Most of us have the school stretch the money out over 12 months, but we are not required to do that. Charter Schools in Michigan are the same way.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21529 posts, RR: 55
Reply 33, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 5 hours ago) and read 3355 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 32):
A lot of people bitch that school teachers make too much and get a lot of vacation time

Seriously? I don't doubt that it happens, but anyone who believe that needs to get their head examined.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2713 posts, RR: 8
Reply 34, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3348 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 30):
I am aware that there has been outmigration from these states. To where, I am not certain

Florida, Texas, Arizona and the South Carolina have had the biggest gains the last ten years. With most coming from Blue states.

Quoting Mir (Reply 29):
Or you could just make the public schools better. And then nobody would have to suffer

Yes I would have to suffer for paying for a syatem I will not use.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8414 posts, RR: 3
Reply 35, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3343 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 19):
Actually, no. It is because there is no money from taxes to give to schools. And police. And fire fighters. It has nothing to do with unions and more to do with the ultra wealthy not paying their fair share of taxes.

This graph might interest you. It shows that we fund our K-12 years more heavily than any country except Switzerland.

http://mercatus.org/publication/k-12-spending-student-oecd

Funding is not the reason why our schools are dysfunctional organizations. Labor relations usually is the reason. In private school, lazy employees get the boot. I have seen it. In the government they do not. Seen that too.

My solution is simply to close failing districts, as any failing organization should be. Just close it. Leave the funding available for newer, equally accountable schools to spring up.


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6586 posts, RR: 24
Reply 36, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3311 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 23):
But it will work for the kid who does get to leave the crappy public school. So at least they all will not have to suffer.

Until the private school collapses or until the kid can't pay for all his books/uniforms/transportation that the private school requires.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 35):
My solution is simply to close failing districts, as any failing organization should be. Just close it. Leave the funding available for newer, equally accountable schools to spring up.

And when new schools don't open up, what happens to all those children?

Quoting windy95 (Reply 34):
Yes I would have to suffer for paying for a syatem I will not use.

And you'll suffer when kids get no education and come knocking at your door to rob you or worse?

Quoting windy95 (Reply 23):
Seeing how in 2010 Romney made $0 dollars of wage income I believe your statement to be false.

So people who work should be penalized versus those who live purely off investments? Why should anybody work? Shouldn't we all just stop doing anything and just put all our money in investments?


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8793 posts, RR: 24
Reply 37, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3319 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 22):
Note, he said "ultra wealthy". Mitt Romney paid a lower percentage in taxes than I did, even though I make far less than Mitt Romney did.

Oh, god, another person who can't tell the difference between Earned revenue (which is only taxed once) and capital gains (which is already taxed twice)

Quoting falstaff (Reply 32):
What is the source on that? I am a teacher in a fairly well off district in metro Detroit and our funding is less than 1/2 of that. I have never heard that figure before. If you include federal money you may be able to get that high, but they get less than 1/2 that from the state.
http://detroitk12.org/data/

My biggest question is why they are still spending so much building new schools. 10 new state-of-the-art school buildings or major renovations opening in September. New netbook PCs to be given to all Grade 6-12 students. It sure doesn't seem like money is lacking.

I also note that while students per classroom is budgeted to be between 25 and 35 (depending on grade level), the report over 15,000 school district employees for 67,000 students. It seems to me that they have far too many administrators and other bureaucracy in the system.

As I recall from my private high school, we had about 800 students, 45 teachers and 6 or 7 in administration. How come they need so many staff (I bet you it has something to do with Union rules).



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8414 posts, RR: 3
Reply 38, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 2 hours ago) and read 3296 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 36):
And when new schools don't open up, what happens to all those children?

Bus them to a district that is doing well.

That is not a panacea, but typically that is the outcome. Funding always follows the child. If there is a school in a cycle of failure, it is harming the community and it should close. Bizarrely, this is unpopular with the community quite often. It is seen as giving up. To me, that is crazy. It is taking charge and taking action.


User currently offlinecpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 38
Reply 39, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3268 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 29):
But then how do you prevent people free-riding off of the union's work without paying dues? That's the real problem with voluntary unions (an idea which, in principle, I agree with, but it becomes very difficult in practice).

People eventually join up anyway of their own will. I wasn't a member for a long time, then I joined up again after a few things happened that made me think, hmm, I'd better join up again just in case.

We don't have this sort of agressive attitude that you'd hinted at, nor any sort of attitude towards this so called free-riding.

Anyhow, that's how it is, it works well enough. We're all nice people who care about what we are doing, rather than the stererotypical attitudes normally portrayed about us.  

That's how unions remain relevant - by being useful to their members. Mine does other stuff unrelated to my employment which is a nice sort of value-added bonus. Special prices and deals on various things, cheaper rates on home-loans, etc.

[Edited 2012-06-03 16:39:23]

User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21529 posts, RR: 55
Reply 40, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3261 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 34):
Yes I would have to suffer for paying for a syatem I will not use.

You'd still be paying for school vouchers and not be using them. Those don't magically appear out of nowhere - it comes out of the public school budget, which comes out of tax revenue.

The school system, by the way, is not there to serve you (at least not directly - we can talk about the indirect benefit that it brings you by making sure that the future labor force is properly educated). It's purpose is to serve the population under the age of 18.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently onlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8942 posts, RR: 40
Reply 41, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3255 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 30):
But look at large swathes of Georgia and Bama.

Georgia and Bama have better roads than Illinois. The fact that these states are less densely populated makes it logical to expect fewer miles of any type of infrastructure.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6586 posts, RR: 24
Reply 42, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3260 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 37):
Oh, god, another person who can't tell the difference between Earned revenue (which is only taxed once) and capital gains (which is already taxed twice)

I'm well aware of the difference. I'm just not sure why investors should pay lower rates than workers. Where is the incentive to actually do real work? Why should anyone become a soldier, teacher, engineer, doctor, etc?

Quoting Flighty (Reply 38):
Bus them to a district that is doing well.

So you're going to trash another school district by flooding them with new kids? Tell me, what school districts in the suburbs of Detroit would have the capacity to take all these kids?

Quoting Flighty (Reply 38):
Bizarrely, this is unpopular with the community quite often. It is seen as giving up. To me, that is crazy. It is taking charge and taking action.

Because you're not fixing the problem, you're just dumping it off on someone else.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 37):
As I recall from my private high school, we had about 800 students, 45 teachers and 6 or 7 in administration. How come they need so many staff (I bet you it has something to do with Union rules).

Are you including guidance counselors, special ed teachers, bus drivers, janitors, cafeteria workers, facilities maintenance, etc?


User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2713 posts, RR: 8
Reply 43, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3256 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 36):
Until the private school collapses or until the kid can't pay for all his books/uniforms/transportation that the private school requires



Why so negative? Most private schools have been around for a long time and will still be there in the long term. Most private schools also provide for students of low income parent's. I pay full price for my child so that another of lessor means does not have to. With a voucher program the more money could then be spent on uniforms , meals and other items. There would be no issues.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 36):
And you'll suffer when kids get no education and come knocking at your door to rob you or worse?



Then they will come face to face with the arsenal of democracy. What you are not getting is that despite all the money we throw at this system they are still not getting an education. That is even if they do not drop out and finish school. The system is terrible and we should not have to keep paying into a failing system that we do not use. And keep funding unions that hold the kids hostage.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 36):
So people who work should be penalized versus those who live purely off investments?



Penalized is the wrong word. They are simply taxed at a different rate. Remember that money was already taxed as income at one time.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 36):
Why should anybody work?



To make and save money.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 36):
Shouldn't we all just stop doing anything and just put all our money in investments?



If you have enough money then yes you should. If you do not then keep working until you do. Pretty simple stuff.

Quoting Flighty (Reply 35):
This graph might interest you. It shows that we fund our K-12 years more heavily than any country except Switzerland.



Yet we do not rank in the top 10 in education. I know what to do throw more money at it.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently onlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8942 posts, RR: 40
Reply 44, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks 1 hour ago) and read 3249 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 42):
I'm well aware of the difference. I'm just not sure why investors should pay lower rates than workers. Where is the incentive to actually do real work? Why should anyone become a soldier, teacher, engineer, doctor, etc?

You just showed us that you don't understand the difference. When a company pays income taxes, this is money the investor will not be getting. Thus, it's costing the investor money because he owns that company.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8793 posts, RR: 24
Reply 45, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks ago) and read 3251 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 42):
I'm well aware of the difference. I'm just not sure why investors should pay lower rates than workers. Where is the incentive to actually do real work? Why should anyone become a soldier, teacher, engineer, doctor, etc?

If they want to not work and simply invest, go ahead... But then you need to work a number of years to get the money together to invest.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 42):
Are you including guidance counselors, special ed teachers, bus drivers, janitors, cafeteria workers, facilities maintenance, etc?

I did. Guidance counselors were also teachers, facilities and maintenance were outsourced (one admin guy to coordinate. The cafeteria was handled by a single person and the help was supplied by students (everyone took turns). Same with janitorial duties - students helped out (and that really reduces the amount of chewing gum and litter being thrown around, I guarantee you). The only thing I did not include was bus drivers - we had no buses.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21529 posts, RR: 55
Reply 46, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks ago) and read 3237 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 43):
I pay full price for my child so that another of lessor means does not have to.

But paying a higher price for the same product doesn't count as suffering?

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8793 posts, RR: 24
Reply 47, posted (2 years 1 month 4 weeks ago) and read 3223 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 46):
But paying a higher price for the same product doesn't count as suffering?

Do you think it is?



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinevin2basketball From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 313 posts, RR: 0
Reply 48, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3177 times:

Quoting falstaff (Reply 32):
Liberal arts education is a waste of time for a lot of people. Students who show a desire need to be steered into the trades. A guy who is a car mechanic is a lot better equipped to make money than somebody with a creative writing degree.

I usually don't support my union on a lot of things, but I do agree with them on somethings. I worked in a charter school and the I know a lot of people who do/did and they are usually terrible as far as how employees are treated. The best teacher and administrators leave because the pay sucks. You can't expect high quality teachers to stick around if they earn less than what you can earn working at some lame call center. The charter company I worked for had no system in place for pay raises because nobody ever worked there long enough to earn a pay raise, at 6 years I was their longest standing employee. I got a couple of raises only because I brought it to their attention that I still worked there and my pay was just moved up to whatever the base rate was at the time. I left when I finally figured out that all of the Career & Technical Education money we were supposed to be putting into the CTE program was just going into the general fund, which is against the law, and nobody cared because the more money we got the higher the 20% cut for the charter school company was. I was also disgusted that when we built a new building that everyone who got a contract for the building and various services were all related to the charter school company's owners, as were all of the school board members.

People want to talk about schools wasting taxpayer dollars, but I never saw such waste as I did in the charter school business.

A lot of people bitch that school teachers make too much and get a lot of vacation time, keep in mind that, in Michigan any way, we only get paid for time we actually work. Most of us have the school stretch the money out over 12 months, but we are not required to do that. Charter Schools in Michigan are the same way.

Teachers are just about the only class of public employee that are underpaid.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 37):
As I recall from my private high school, we had about 800 students, 45 teachers and 6 or 7 in administration. How come they need so many staff (I bet you it has something to do with Union rules).

This has to do with the false notion that somehow smaller class sizes are better for students.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21529 posts, RR: 55
Reply 49, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3167 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 47):
Do you think it is?

"Suffering" is a ridiculously melodramatic word to use, but, setting that aside, it depends on the product. When it comes to basic education, I'd say no.

I'm struggling to figure out how paying taxes for public schools somehow counts as "suffering", but paying taxes for school vouchers, or being forced to overpay for your own child's education, doesn't.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 50, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3166 times:

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 17):
Then you have CA and IL basically doubling-down on fiscal liberalism.

   It's funny what happens when you can't print money. They have the worst taxes and worst budgets. They're in a hole and digging it deeper.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 22):
The conservative red states have lower standards of living, higher rates of poverty, lower rates of educational attainment, lower life expectancies and a higher reliance on federal welfare.

It seems like every week there is another study telling us that southerners are fat and dumb. And yet they usually have the same odor as hippies.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 26):
Corporations really should have no say in curriculum.

Of course it's the corporations expected to hire the products of the education system. They should have a say. It's better to spend government money teaching math and science vs. Greek mythology.

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 26):
Right wingers increasingly coming to the fore

They don't have a choice. They're out of money and can't just print more.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 27):
Literally millions of people have left CA, MI, and NY in the last decade.

...many of them following companies that left because of unsustainable government policies.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 36):
Shouldn't we all just stop doing anything and just put all our money in investments?

Isn't that the goal?

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 36):
And you'll suffer when kids get no education and come knocking at your door to rob you or worse?

If a kid is too much of a dumbass to take advantage of the education at his disposal, he can lie in the bed he makes. It might be a cardboard box or prison cell, but so be it.

As far as my education reform here it is: every last cent of government aid for students MUST be merit based, and merit based only. From magnet elementary schools to colleges, if you want to go to special schools to get something beyond a baseline education you're going to earn it. There does have to be some special ed on the other end, but there is just way too much trying to raise the floor and not enough raising the ceiling.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinedfwrevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 962 posts, RR: 51
Reply 51, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3153 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 26):
Again agreed. Corporations really should have no say in curriculum. From where I am, and accuse me of being as elitist as Obama may be, but a traditional liberal arts education is still the best way to go, with curricula decided by a "committee of elders", if you will

You are as elitist as Obama. This is reeks with the liberal notion that "we know better than you, so shut up and do as we say." If the purpose of education is to develop high-value skills for the workplace, then a market-driven approach must be used to determine curriculum standards. Corporations are the biggest employers of highly-payed skilled professionals. It is rational to include a representative number of corporations on your "committee of elders."

We have the most high-tech companies in the world like Apple, Google, Intel, ExxonMobil, Boeing, Ford, GE, etc saying to anyone who will listen that the United States isn't graduating enough technical professionals. If you want to know where the jobs are, they are right there. And yet, there input matters not? If we put more emphasis on calculus over Catcher in the Rye, perhaps more Americans would hold the jobs filled by those imported on H-1B visas.

Contrast your approach to that of Penn State and Texas A&M University, who both maintain industry advisory panels for their engineering colleges*. Both schools value the feedback from industry as to what skills are most important in the workplace, now and in the future. The schools have the distinction of being the 1st and 2nd most preferred institutions amongst corporate recruiters. It's not rocket science: match curriculum to the skills employers want and students get jobs when they graduate. I guarantee that Penn State and Texas A&M grads are under-represented at OWS rallies. They are too busy being successful.

* - I'm sure they exist for other departments and at many other univesrities, but I'm familiar with these two.


User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 52, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3120 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 50):
Quoting connies4ever (Reply 26):
Corporations really should have no say in curriculum.

Of course it's the corporations expected to hire the products of the education system. They should have a say. It's better to spend government money teaching math and science vs. Greek mythology.

Math & science are part of a traditional liberal education system.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 51):
You are as elitist as Obama.

Guilty as charged and proud of it. Universities should be elitist. Personally, I'd make university tuition-free, but only if any given student can pass a stiff entrance exam. No room for slackers, coffee drinkers, and bridge players. Anyone else can go to community college or trade school.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2713 posts, RR: 8
Reply 53, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3105 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 46):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 43):
I pay full price for my child so that another of lessor means does not have to.

But paying a higher price for the same product doesn't count as suffering?


It is a charity of my choice and I know where the money is going. Why am I forced to pay for your favorite charity the public school system.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6586 posts, RR: 24
Reply 54, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3099 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 43):
Most private schools have been around for a long time and will still be there in the long term.

That's because most private schools pick and choose who they want to attend and dump anyone that they don't want. Public schools don't have that luxury. I'd also note that for-profit charter schools that often pop up as a result of these voucher programs have a much shadier track record and much higher rate of failure.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 44):
Thus, it's costing the investor money because he owns that company.

You're mixing a corporate tax rate (paid by the corporation) and individual tax rate (paid by the individual). You're still purposely evading why an investor should pay a lower individual tax rate than a worker.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 43):
What you are not getting is that despite all the money we throw at this system they are still not getting an education.

True, but simply shutting down the schools and hoping someone else will take the kid isn't going to fix the problem either.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 50):
Isn't that the goal?

I hope not because the U.S. will quickly find itself a third world country. If everyone is out just to get rich quick by being an investor, who will maintain our society? When an investor has a heart attack, who will be his doctor? When an investor needs to travel, who will fly his plane and provide ATC?

Most importantly, if all the smart people stop working and just invest, what will investors actually invest in? Using your logic, Steve Jobs shouldn't have bothered developing the iPhone, iPad, etc because he should have just sat back and invested his money.

Yes, investing is an important part of our economy. However, I don't believe investors should be treated as a special class of citizens for tax purposes.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 50):

If a kid is too much of a dumbass to take advantage of the education at his disposal, he can lie in the bed he makes. It might be a cardboard box or prison cell, but so be it.

True, but who pays for that prison cell? You do and it costs a lot more than education.

No other Western nation imprisons people like the U.S. does. How many billions in tax dollars go to run prisons?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 50):
As far as my education reform here it is: every last cent of government aid for students MUST be merit based, and merit based only.

What do you tell the kid who gets only B's/C's because he has to work a job and raise his sibling because his parents are losers? How will that kid compete for merit aid against a kid who grew up in the wealthy suburbs and had private tutors? If you go purely on MERIT aid, most kids who are poor will never have a chance at college.


User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3354 posts, RR: 9
Reply 55, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 3070 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 54):
I hope not because the U.S. will quickly find itself a third world country. If everyone is out just to get rich quick by being an investor, who will maintain our society?

Already kind of happening the best and brightest minds are often recruited into financial services for this purpose.

Bringing up the investment vs income tax debate, many of the reasons for capital gains taxes being lower are still valid for example if you buy and sell properties, invest in startups and even what Bain Capital does is valid to be subject to the tax.

I think there should be a statute of limitations on being able to pay that lower tax rate. In the past people who bought stocks often held them for a long period of time because they had confidence in a company or a sector based mutual fund.

Now (and we can thank computers largely for this) stocks are held for literally seconds. Holding a stock for 20 seconds isn't really an investment it's a bet that it will go up in that time limit.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6075 posts, RR: 29
Reply 56, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3013 times:
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Quoting Flighty (Reply 35):
In private school, lazy employees get the boot.

Unless the school closes than everyone loses their jobs

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 36):
Until the private school collapses

which is happening a lot. A lot of charter schools take over private schools that fail. Everyone in metro Detroit talks about failing public schools, but the massive amount of failed private schools is staggering and most people don't know about it. Back in 2005 a charter school I worked for looked at a once great private high school in the suburbs. As recently as 1990 the school had 2000 students, by 04-05 it was down to less than 100. We didn't buy it because the building was too big for us and the cost to operate it was too high. There are 100s of closed private schools in the Detroit area and many cities have similar numbers of closed private schools. Few people notice when a private school closes because it doesn't draw the media attention that failing public schools do.

Private schools also have had trouble retaining teachers. Back in the day they had a lot of priests and nuns who worked for nothing, or very little. Today there is a shortage of those people and you just aren't going to get college educated people who are going to work for peanuts. I couple of years ago I was talking to a private school teacher (who's school was closing) and she was making $14,000 a year and the school wanted her to tale a pay cut so they could stay in business. I worked with a some private school teachers at the charter school and they thought that the $28,000 the charter paid them was fantastic. Of course none of them stuck around long because they could make more someplace else. I was one of the highest paid teachers at the school because my class was one of the classes they drew kids to the school. They paid the core subject teachers poorly because they were a dime a dozen and because everyone had to take their class they weren't a draw to the school.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 37):
New netbook PCs to be given to all Grade 6-12 students. It sure doesn't seem like money is lacking.

Depends what the money is for. Every year I get a new piece of equipment paid for by the Perkin Grant. It has to be used for classroom technology and that money comes specifically for technology, it can't be used for salary, operating costs etc. There are lots of school funding things that are like that. Schools, including charters, operate very different than other businesses/ Most people don't understand. My dad still doesn't understand how schools work and both my mom and I are teachers. Things that work in the business world don't work in schools.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 37):
http://detroitk12.org/data/

Just as I thought that does include federal money. They get a lot because so many of their kids on are federal free/reduced lunch.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 37):
It seems to me that they have far too many administrators and other bureaucracy in the system.

Some districts, like Detroit, are top heavy. They still have the administration levels they did when they were twice the size they are now.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 37):
As I recall from my private high school, we had about 800 students, 45 teachers and 6 or 7 in administration. How come they need so many staff (I bet you it has something to do with Union rules).

If it was private I am sure there was no union. That number sounds about right. We have 890 in the high school where I work. We have three administrators and 45 teachers, including special ed teachers. Union rules have nothing to do with staffing levels.

Quoting vin2basketball (Reply 48):
Teachers are just about the only class of public employee that are underpaid.

That depends. The top pay scale teachers tend to be paid well, around my area anyway. The problem is it takes forever to get there nowadays becuase of senior union people voting to keep their salaries high while freezing those at the low end. Schools also keep cutting low seniority people so there aren't that many and some schools.

Quoting vin2basketball (Reply 48):
This has to do with the false notion that somehow smaller class sizes are better for students.

Try teaching an auto shop class with more than 30 students.... You don't have enough tools and equipment for them and you can't keep an eye on everyone. The same goes for a chemistry lab too and lots of other specialty types classes. You can have a huge class if it is a lecture type class. The same goes for colleges and universities. That massive lecture hall worked great for liberal arts junk, but once I got into my major (automotive technology) classes with less than 20 were the norm.

Don't even begin to get me on class size and K-6 grades. Try working with 50 7 year olds in a classroom and tell me how it works. I have never done it, but I am sure it won't work out well.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 57, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 2983 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 52):
Math & science are part of a traditional liberal education system.

Not enough apparently.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 54):
I hope not because the U.S. will quickly find itself a third world country.

The kind of third world country where as many people as possible become rich enough to live off of interest? I'd like that place.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 54):
You do and it costs a lot more than education.

It doesn't matter how much money you throw at education if people are idiots. Education is one of the few things government actually should throw a lot of money at.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 54):
What do you tell the kid who gets only B's/C's because he has to work a job and raise his sibling because his parents are losers?

I'd tell him to raise his grades if he wants to go to a top school.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 54):
How will that kid compete for merit aid against a kid who grew up in the wealthy suburbs and had private tutors?

The standards for "regular" schools need to be increased. But frankly, I don't care how they compete. I'm not about to penalize anyone for having too many resources and working too hard. If you're the most capable person and will make the most of the opportunity, you get the spot. End of story. I don't care what color you are or if you grew up in a mansion or foster home.

If you want to do need based stuff then go to private scholarships and endowments. But government money should be only merit based.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6075 posts, RR: 29
Reply 58, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 2931 times:
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Quoting BMI727 (Reply 57):
I'd tell him to raise his grades if he wants to go to a top school.

"Top Schools" can mean a lot... Some of the top schools in certain fields aren't top schools on the list of big name schools. Southern Illinois Univerity isn't on anyone's top schools in the nation list, but if your fields Automotive Technology or Coal Research it is a top school. Ferris State University isn't a big name school either, but in Plastics Technology and Machine Tool Technology they are tops.

Getting a degree from a school like Yale doesn't mean squat if you have no skills.

I was looking at the list my school's soon to be graduates and where they plan to study and what. I saw one student who plans to study "Hipster Studies" at Sarah Lawerance in New York. I saw another student going to study welding at a community college nearby. In five years I will bet that the welder will be making more money and have a better job the than Hipster Studies person. Getting a college degree means nothing if you have no skills than anyone wants or no skills at all.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 57):
Not enough apparently.

I agree... Math and Science are the keys to doing well in a lot of different fields. I don't find math all that useful in being a car mechanic (we have machines that do that for us) but understanding science is very important. I work with the science department at work a lot. The science department and I cross teach a lot of concepts, far more than any other departments in the building.

Students are going to get a lot more out of math and science classes than they will out of "minority studies" which is dumb for my school, because 99.2% of the student body is white and 100% of the staff is white so nobody takes the class seriously. The students at my last schools wouldn't have taken it seriously either and the student body was 100% black.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 54):
How will that kid compete for merit aid against a kid who grew up in the wealthy suburbs and had private tutors?

I grew up in the wealthy suburbs and had private tutors and it didn't help! I was still a rock head at math and failed. This is my high school math transcript for semseters one and two:

9th grade Algebra 1 D-/D-
10th grade Geometry D-/F

that's it.... I still went to a University and I still got a good job. Nobody asks about my math skills because I didn't choose a career path were they are important. I fix cars and I teach kids to fix cars.

My college math transcript is :
Introduction to college math F
Modern Math Concepts D-

My point is that somebody who is a good student will still shine and no matter how much money you throw at tutors you still can be stupid.

Every now and then I get a smart ass who says "how can you be a teacher and be so bad at math"? Well I can fix cars, tell anyone in the math department come and give that a try. Everyone is good at different things.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 54):
most kids who are poor will never have a chance at college.

Sure they do. There are lots of grants and loans. There is money to use if they choose to use it. I recently went to University of Detroit Mercy for post graduate work and I think I may have been the only student in most of my classes who was actually paying cash for the classes. I got that drift the way everyone was always talking about their loans, grants and scholarships.

When I did my undergrad at Central Missouri State I knew very very few people who's parents were footing their entire college bill. I took a lot of crap from people who we envious that my parents were able to pay for my schooling.

I used to work for a student loan servicer (did car repair for their company cars and did mechanical work in their office building) There were hundreds of employees working on servicing student loan, just in Missouri. After seeing that place I figured most people can't afford to go to college. I think a lot of the high cost of college is getting higher. Schools see that somebody else is paying so they just pass along the bill. Students take it because they have to.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 54):
I'd also note that for-profit charter schools that often pop up as a result of these voucher programs have a much shadier track record and much higher rate of failure

You bet... Charter Schools that succeed, on the long term, are usually in areas where the traditional public schools do well. Those in areas where the traditional schools fail also fail.

When looking at money, costs, and schools one needs to look at the expense of a high school. A high school is the most costly building in a district to run. It takes little money to teach a class of 1st graders, but to teach a 12 grade advanced physics class takes a bunch of money. High Schools are loaded with special classrooms for a lot of specialized things. They have shops, labs, gyms, weight rooms, pools, theaters, tracks, etc. A lot of Charter operators don't run high schools because they are too costly to run. Here in Michigan it is against the law for a schools district to only operate K-8 and that has been the law since 1965 or so. However charter school companies do not have to follow the same rules. They can operate their K-8 programs and turn a profit and look great to the untrained eye, but in reality they don't have the same operating costs. The charter I worked for started as a high school only. They had to take on k-8 schools in order to make enough extra money to run the high school. When the high school got too costly they shut it down and focused on the profitable k-8 program. Where did the students go? Back to traditional public schools of course because there was no other charter high school in the area.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11533 posts, RR: 15
Reply 59, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2921 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Thread starter):
Quote:Public-employee unions in Wisconsin have experienced a dramatic drop in membership—by more than half for the second-biggest union—since a law championed by Republican Gov. Scott Walker sharply curtailed their ability to bargain over wages and working conditions.

So, one has nothing to do with the other? Meaning: teachers saw their pensions and collective barganing rights thrown out like yesterday's trash, so they decided to find work in a field where they could have collective barganing?

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 51):
This is reeks with the liberal notion that "we know better than you, so shut up and do as we say."

Actually, that is the right-wing mantra.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 51):
If the purpose of education is to develop high-value skills for the workplace, then a market-driven approach must be used to determine curriculum standards.

So, the corporation who can crank out books for the lowest cost is the best one to tell us our own history, science, and math? Am I the only one who sees a problem with that?

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 51):
Corporations are the biggest employers of highly-payed skilled professionals.

Wal-Mart cashiers, McDonald's cashiers, Home Depot cashiers... All manufacturing and tech jobs are now in India and China.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently onlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8942 posts, RR: 40
Reply 60, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2882 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 54):
You're mixing a corporate tax rate (paid by the corporation) and individual tax rate (paid by the individual). You're still purposely evading why an investor should pay a lower individual tax rate than a worker.

You are clearly putting form over substance and using the complexity of the tax code to confuse others for your own political gain.

The corporation belongs to people, and thus it stands to basic logic that the corporation's tax payments is really their owner's tax payments.

What you are suggesting is that people who own businesses pay income taxes at the corporate level, and then again at the individual level. You want that same exact income to be taxed twice at high income tax level rates.

[Edited 2012-06-04 21:01:59]


"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 61, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2881 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 59):
Am I the only one who sees a problem with that?

Yes, because there is no problem. The simple fact is that the end users of the students should have some say in what they end up getting. Any other group would be stupid to not pay attention to what their customers need and there's no reason schools should be different.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6075 posts, RR: 29
Reply 62, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2843 times:
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Quoting seb146 (Reply 59):
All manufacturing and tech jobs are now in India

Really? Even here in Michigan manufacturing isn't dead.

I guess I will tell my friend who's owns a pipe making factory in Missouri that his company really is in India. My dad's company, who makes railroad signal systems, that it is really located in India too.

I guess you have to tell the folks in our IT department that their jobs are actually in India.

Even Wal-Mart has a lot of US made products. Last year I found over 100 US made products in less than 1 hour at a Walmart in Missouri. They were all products in different categories too, so I didn't count the 75 different oil filters made here, I only counted one. I didn't count the variety of coolers made by Igloo, I only counted one. I went in expecting very different results than what I found.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7075 posts, RR: 8
Reply 63, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 2824 times:

There are specifics and generalities, I guess seperation of both is an issue. The USA is running massive trade deficits with other industrial nations, either the USA is manufacturing things that its citizens do not need, are too expensive, or they don't have the resources to satisfy the demands of the nation.
The government also advises in its labour figures that service jobs in country are on the increase and industrial capacity is falling. No doubt there are regions of the country where this does not apply but when the figures of the country are compiled the results are there to be seen.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 61):
The simple fact is that the end users of the students should have some say in what they end up getting. Any other group would be stupid to not pay attention to what their customers need and there's no reason schools should be different.

The only thought I would add to this is that the government also has a responsibility to look at the future of the nation and not just financial investors, they have an additional burden. It is cheaper to hire sales staff to sell goods imported into the country versus hiring sales staff to sell good made in the USA. The sales staff salaries are not the issue, the cost of the goods and the profit margin are the key.
Big business only cares how much profit and returns they can make for their investors, the product which offers the largest margin is the priority, where it is made is not relevant.
Government can also operate like a big business, if the majority of their citizens are service oriented and the nation has massive physicial resources, do they want their citizens to aspire to greater heights or remain in the service mould, imagine where the USA would be without its industrial revolution. The south is rising again, one can debate whether the assembly of foreign goods on USA soil is preferable over assembling USA designed goods on USA soil. Do USA schools need to turn our designers of products and engineers to build them or students good in assembly, these are not strictly local business questions but also must be dealt with at the Federal level who is charged with the development and progress of the entire nation.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8793 posts, RR: 24
Reply 64, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2817 times:

Quoting par13del (Reply 63):
Big business only cares how much profit and returns they can make for their investors, the product which offers the largest margin is the priority, where it is made is not relevant.

They also care about customer loyalty, and the knowledge that one dissatisfied customer will talk to 10 other people and tell them "Don't buy that product". They want their customers to be happy with their experience, and to tell their friends. A good, privately held school will first and foremost be interested in impressing the people who possess the power of choice - the parents. Under a voucher system, parents will talk to each other and will figure out which schools have the better academic program, or best athletics program, or whatever your interest is. A School which doesn't attract enough students will go out of business.

Government is nowhere near that responsive to the needs of the parents. Pick any school district, and see if you can find out how often the school board met with representatives of the teachers union, and how many times they met with the PTA or similar parents' group. Politicians will see the teachers union as much a "customer" of theirs as the parents, if not more so, because they are better organized. That is a problem. They are not a customer, nor should they be a constituency. They are a cost. They should be treated no different than a plumber that you hire - they need to do a job and do it right, and do it for a competitive price, or else you take your business elsewhere.

If teachers want to organize, fine, but I would insist on having at least 2 separate teachers' unions in each area, so if one gets out of line or too complacent, you bring in the competition.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39710 posts, RR: 75
Reply 65, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2813 times:

The polls have opened 45 minutes ago in Wisconsin.
Let's see if a visit from President Obama will be able to allow the recall effort to get it's way.
Shall be a very interesting day.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6075 posts, RR: 29
Reply 66, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2804 times:
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Quoting Superfly (Reply 65):
Let's see if a visit from President Obama will be able to allow the recall effort to get it's way.

The politcians that Obama helps seem to go the wrong way for Obama, so I predict a win for Walker.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 64):
If teachers want to organize, fine, but I would insist on having at least 2 separate teachers' unions in each area, so if one gets out of line or too complacent, you bring in the competition.

There are in a lot of areas. Here in metro Detroit we have the NEA and the AFT. The only problem is that nobody ever switches between the two. Our school voted to be NEA back in '66 and nothing has ever changed, even though not a single person who voted for the union is still working here; the last retired two years ago. I often wonder what the vote would actually be if we were allowed to vote to see if we wanted to switch unions of drop it all together. Oddly the younger teachers are the ones who are more anti union or don't care. The older higher seniority teachers are the union hardliners. Most of them were working with people that formed the union and they told them stories about how things used to be. To this day they will tell stories about how things used to be, even though some of the things that were done before the union are now illegal.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21529 posts, RR: 55
Reply 67, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 10 hours ago) and read 2803 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 53):
It is a charity of my choice and I know where the money is going. Why am I forced to pay for your favorite charity the public school system.

You'd still be forced to pay for vouchers and not know where your money is going.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 57):
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 54):
What do you tell the kid who gets only B's/C's because he has to work a job and raise his sibling because his parents are losers?

I'd tell him to raise his grades if he wants to go to a top school.

So you'd screw over the kid who has a work ethic and actually knows what it's like to earn your own money in favor of someone who does nothing but study? Fine, but then don't complain about people devoting their attention to school rather than getting a job.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 61):
The simple fact is that the end users of the students should have some say in what they end up getting.

It's a horrible idea. For one thing, the economy is too diverse to let a small number of companies dictate what curriculum standards should be in areas that they may not have any involvement with. If an oil company write the chemistry textbooks, that's all well and good for them, but there are so many other things that you can do with a chemistry education that would likely not get proper attention, and all the companies in those areas, who may not even be competitors of the oil companies, would suffer. For another, that would only further the concentration of power in the hands of the few. We need less of that, not more.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2713 posts, RR: 8
Reply 68, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2783 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 67):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 53):It is a charity of my choice and I know where the money is going. Why am I forced to pay for your favorite charity the public school system.
You'd still be forced to pay for vouchers and not know where your money is going.

I should not have to pay for any of it but if I am forced to then I would rather have citizens have the choice of school that they want their child to go to . Not a Union controlled tax payer funded system like we have.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 54):
That's because most private schools pick and choose who they want to attend and dump anyone that they don't want.

You have no clue about private schools do you. Top end finishing and Military schools may do this but most private schools are happy to get any paying customer and every religious school excepts kids on the lower end of the scale. it is what we call charity. There are many lower income families at our school and they are funded by others in the school and by parishioners. Unfortunately we also have to fund the public school system we do not use. So much for our rights and freedoms and equal protection.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlinepar13del From Bahamas, joined Dec 2005, 7075 posts, RR: 8
Reply 69, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2782 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 64):
Government is nowhere near that responsive to the needs of the parents. Pick any school district, and see if you can find out how often the school board met with representatives of the teachers union, and how many times they met with the PTA or similar parents' group.

Totally agree here, personally I think the only government involvement at the day to day level should be local school boards and not state or federal who in centralized systems are too far removed from the process. As for the PTA, in some cases parents seems to be abandoning, it may well be as a result of their concerns not being listned to and addresses, chicken and egg.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 64):
Under a voucher system, parents will talk to each other and will figure out which schools have the better academic program, or best athletics program, or whatever your interest is. A School which doesn't attract enough students will go out of business.

Only concern I have is the death of schools who are not doing a good enough job to attract clients, local schools up to the high school level usually have a large percentage of their clients from nearby communities, are we including transportation with the voucher program?


User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11533 posts, RR: 15
Reply 70, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2780 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 64):
They also care about customer loyalty, and the knowledge that one dissatisfied customer will talk to 10 other people and tell them "Don't buy that product". They want their customers to be happy with their experience, and to tell their friends.

No, they don't care. I know thousands of people who hate Wal-Mart. Yet, they are still around and still selling the same plastic Chinese crap they have always sold. I hate Starbucks and let everyone know, yet there are still thousands of Starbucks in a 100 mile radius. Corporations just want is so there is no other choice.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 64):
Government is nowhere near that responsive to the needs of the parents

Schools are always listening to parents about teachers, teaching methods, curriculum, and so forth. Always. And the schools react to that. Always.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6075 posts, RR: 29
Reply 71, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2776 times:
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Quoting Mir (Reply 67):
You'd still be forced to pay for vouchers and not know where your money is going.

with the high likely hood they a unelected board.

The charter school I worked at had an "elected board". The Board members chose who they wanted and voted them in. There was never a vote not in favor of a candidate. It was kind of funny how the husband of one board member got the no bid contract to build an addition to the school. Another got a no bid contract to give his brother the contract for custodial service. Another just happened to own the property the school bought to build on. Where was the press? They don't cover charter school board meetings. The board meetings were held at odd times and the public meeting act was met by posting a piece of paper on the meeting room door shortly before the meeting. The corruption was insane and none of it would ever fly at the traditional district where I work now.

I am a Republican and usually vote for fairly rightist candidates, but conservatives have been sold a lot of nonsense about charter schools. I disagree with my union (I am a member because I have to be) on most everything, but what they say about charters is right on the money, at least from my experience.

The management firm that was being used before I got to the charter school were real rip off artists. They were paying the employees less than what they were reporting to the state and were keeping the extra money. They got caught. One year the state audited us and I was given a list of equipment that I was to inventory for the state. The equipment was paid for by Career and Technical Education funds and should only have been spent in such items. I went over the list and found piece of equipment on the list. On closer inspection I realized the state showed me had two of each thing and the invoices showed the state paid for two items. There was about $40,000 in equipment, but we only had 1/2 of it. Apparently the previous company billed the state for two of everything and either gave the equipment to somebody else or it was just doubled billed and somebody got the money. My bet was somebody at the previous company knew somebody in the service equipment business and they worked out a nice deal.


Don't even begin to get me going on the software piracy I saw at that place. The management company outfitted every computer with copied software because it was cheap.

If you complained about anything you were fired! I hate to say it but I looked the other way on a lot of things because I was able to squeeze a lot of perks out of them. I once saw a coworker get fired on the spot because he wouldn't change his grade book to show a student was there on student count day. Did the guy complain, I doubt it because he probably needed to get another job and a lot of people in the charter school community in these parts know each other. A lot of them sit on the same boards.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 72, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2743 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 67):
So you'd screw over the kid who has a work ethic and actually knows what it's like to earn your own money in favor of someone who does nothing but study?

Merit isn't only about grades. You'd be hard pressed to find a college or scholarship anywhere in this country that doesn't count extracurricular and other outside activities in the application process.

Quoting Mir (Reply 67):
For one thing, the economy is too diverse to let a small number of companies dictate what curriculum standards should be in areas that they may not have any involvement with. If an oil company write the chemistry textbooks, that's all well and good for them, but there are so many other things that you can do with a chemistry education that would likely not get proper attention, and all the companies in those areas, who may not even be competitors of the oil companies, would suffer.

That argument falls apart when you realize that not all schools are influenced by the same people. If you study chemistry in Texas there's a good chance that you'll learn a thing or two about oil. If you'd rather learn about say, pharmaceuticals, it might be better to study somewhere else. If only someone would make some list of which schools are good in which areas...oh wait.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21529 posts, RR: 55
Reply 73, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2716 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 72):
Merit isn't only about grades.

You said you'd tell someone with a B or C average who was working while in school to raise their grades if they wanted to get into a top college. If that's not making merit all about grades, I'm not sure what is.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 72):
That argument falls apart when you realize that not all schools are influenced by the same people.

We know that larger states control textbook content by virtue of having the largest market. Texas' textbook decisions (and by extension their curricula decisions) don't affect just Texas.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 72):
If you study chemistry in Texas there's a good chance that you'll learn a thing or two about oil. If you'd rather learn about say, pharmaceuticals, it might be better to study somewhere else.

So the kids in Houston who want to go into pharmaceuticals will have to convince their parents to relocate to another state. I'm sure that'll go over well.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 74, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2715 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 73):
You said you'd tell someone with a B or C average who was working while in school to raise their grades if they wanted to get into a top college.

...assuming that what they are doing already is deemed not good enough, yeah. And if there are other students who are working and getting straight A's, do you know what that means? It means the first kid isn't good enough. So said kid has to either improve or find something else to do.

Quoting Mir (Reply 73):
So the kids in Houston who want to go into pharmaceuticals will have to convince their parents to relocate to another state. I'm sure that'll go over well.

...because the split between being a great petroleum engineer and discovering the next wonder drug is based on high school chemistry?  



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6787 posts, RR: 34
Reply 75, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2707 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 15):
Many union workers may be trying to do anything to keep their jobs.

Currently, civil service job protections that are ALREADY in place have this job protection effect as a matter of LAW. The histrionics from the WEAC shrews (the primary WI teacher's union) about this was nothing but unfounded fear-mongering.

Moreover, collective bargaining rights still exist when it comes to SALARY. What happened in WI with Act 10 was that work rules and other provisions were stripped from public sector union employees (save cops and firefighters, due to political pressure, although they too should have been included IMHO). the very notion of "public sector" unions is anathema and FDR himself said so. But it was WI to be the first state to go down that road...ironically, WI will now be ground zero for that very fight over 50 years later.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 20):
The general population will turn out in their usual 50% or so participation rate, but the unions will have 99% of their activists voting.

And don't forget the dead people, the people in MKE being bribed with cigarettes to vote, etc, etc....

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 27):
Take education. Texas has lower standardized testing scores than Wisconsin. Stop there and you completely miss the bigger picture. In reality, every demographic in Texas outperforms its Wisconsin counterpart. However, whites outperform Hispanics, and Texas has a vastly larger Hispanic population. Wisconsin only achieves a higher average than Texas because it is "more white," even though whites in Texas are better educated.

These 2 states are worlds apart in terms of the demographic point above...good response. The point isn't money, but accountability. TX closes schools that repeatedly underperform. It's terribly disruptive to the communities, but some hard freaking decisions are being done. Lot of work to do in TX.


User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3001 posts, RR: 8
Reply 76, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 5 days 3 hours ago) and read 2707 times:

We have drifted FAR off topic, but I'd like to reply to these posts:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 64):
Under a voucher system, parents will talk to each other and will figure out which schools have the better academic program, or best athletics program, or whatever your interest is. A School which doesn't attract enough students will go out of business.

But wouldn't this eventually exacerbate the problem? Enter the voucher system and the school without enough students closes (add about 10-20 teachers and about 5 janitors to the unemployment lines). There will be people vying for the top schools exclusively and maybe forcing one school to close every two-three years due to low attendance. So not only would you create overcapacity in some schools (forcing them to establish a limit as to how many students they can take) it also harms the student if the school is willing to take as many as possible. Can you imagine a teacher handling 40, 50, 60 students in one large room, teaching a subject and needing to cater to every need the students might have? A college professor can do that: it's a different level. Grade school: a challenge.



Quoting BMI727 (Reply 74):
And if there are other students who are working and getting straight A's, do you know what that means? It means the first kid isn't good enough. So said kid has to either improve or find something else to do.

This is open to debate in another thread which you're more than welcome to open: how do we know the kid excels in everything and hasn't:
a) had his/her parents buy the grades
b) not challenged academically to his/her grade and given As for doing stuff not relevant to the grade level?

If the only thing this student has done is study without having any other kind of activity whatsoever outside the school (be it extracurricular, volunteering, personal), then I see the person as a weaker candidate than the one who gets Bs and Cs who can justify his less than spectacular grades but still manages to balance an adult life with an academic life.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 74):
Quoting Mir (Reply 73):
So the kids in Houston who want to go into pharmaceuticals will have to convince their parents to relocate to another state. I'm sure that'll go over well.

...because the split between being a great petroleum engineer and discovering the next wonder drug is based on high school chemistry?

You'd be surprised. The starting blocks of many careers depend on just how and where the material is covered. When I was in grade school, I got excited every time I had to deal with a math or physics problem related to airplanes or meteorology. Being focused on one topic all the time is a real bore. So if the high school chemistry book's sole focus is in the oil industry, how are students supposed to know the other uses that chemistry has in general?

You might say: do a Google search. Yeah, right. If students today are told that 1+1=5, out of 100, I can bet that less than 5 will question why that is so. The others will blindly accept it as fact and move on.



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8793 posts, RR: 24
Reply 77, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2665 times:

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 76):
But wouldn't this eventually exacerbate the problem? Enter the voucher system and the school without enough students closes (add about 10-20 teachers and about 5 janitors to the unemployment lines).

Yep. And another school will take it's place and do everything it can to attract students and parents, by hiring the best teachers they can find, among other things.

The only issue I have with widespread use of vouchers is that, by default, it forces all the schools to charge the same price. This will be fine in the short term, politics being what it is, you might see the value of the vouchers climbing more than it should. Some way of policing that needs to be figured out.

Back to the subject...

http://www.jsonline.com/news/statepolitics/152346265.html

It's looking like a rout. Scott has a 19% lead with 37% reporting.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinedfwrevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 962 posts, RR: 51
Reply 78, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2658 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 70):
Schools are always listening to parents about teachers, teaching methods, curriculum, and so forth. Always. And the schools react to that. Always.

That is a childish absolute. Plenty of teachers have their way, have their tenure, and don't care to work with parents at all.

There was a controversy in my community recently because the local school district refused to remove cursive handwriting from the curriculum. American elementary students should be learning to code VBA and they are wasting time with obsolete skills.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 59):
So, the corporation who can crank out books for the lowest cost is the best one to tell us our own history, science, and math? Am I the only one who sees a problem with that?

You are completely missing the point. Corporations should have input on what balance of history, science, and math is thought in classrooms. They are the "customers" of the education system. Do you think ExxonMobil is trying to brainwash Americans with their own "version" of calculus.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 59):
Wal-Mart cashiers, McDonald's cashiers, Home Depot cashiers... All manufacturing and tech jobs are now in India and China.

More childish absolutes. I guess Boeing doesn't employ aerospace engineers, KPMG doesn't employ accountants, Merck doesn't employ any biologist, etc. I took a job for a big-bad corporation directly out of college and made a great salary. I got a raise every year during the recession. That's the power of studying a 21st century skill like engineering.

You probably didn't go to college, but if you were to visit a college campus today during a recruiting event you will see technology companies snapping up American graduates as fast as they confer diplomas.The technology sector is at full employment. It is low-skill workers who have stayed unemployed or under-employed.

Manufacturing is a 20th century economy, just like agriculture is a 19th century economy. It will become less important to our overall GDP with time, just like agriculture has. The future is technology, and those aren't union jobs.

[Edited 2012-06-05 19:26:13]

User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21529 posts, RR: 55
Reply 79, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2657 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 74):
And if there are other students who are working and getting straight A's, do you know what that means? It means the first kid isn't good enough. So said kid has to either improve or find something else to do.

Okay, so it is all about grades. Thanks for clearing that up.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 76):
You'd be surprised. The starting blocks of many careers depend on just how and where the material is covered.

  

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 80, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2634 times:

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 76):
This is open to debate in another thread which you're more than welcome to open: how do we know the kid excels in everything and hasn't:
a) had his/her parents buy the grades
b) not challenged academically to his/her grade and given As for doing stuff not relevant to the grade level?

If you have those problems then nothing else really matters.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 76):
So if the high school chemistry book's sole focus is in the oil industry, how are students supposed to know the other uses that chemistry has in general?

Sometimes people have to discover things for themselves. But more importantly, eventually other industries will start saying that "America doesn't produce enough graduates of X" or people will start wondering why some industries are leaving, and there is a correction. That is the key to all of this: schools have to be able to produce what is in demand, whatever that may be. I've never heard anyone complaining about the lack of Womens' Studies graduates.

Quoting Mir (Reply 79):
Okay, so it is all about grades. Thanks for clearing that up.

How companies and institutions decide to screen candidates is their business. Of course grades are, in their most basic sense, a measure of how well a student understands the material. Being the best busboy in Waffle House history isn't particularly relevant when applying to study physics.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21529 posts, RR: 55
Reply 81, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 22 hours ago) and read 2615 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 80):
But more importantly, eventually other industries will start saying that "America doesn't produce enough graduates of X" or people will start wondering why some industries are leaving, and there is a correction.

A correction that takes years. You can't just decide to crank out more specialists in a certain industry. And given how low this country prioritizes long-term planning, by the time we figure out something needs addressing, it'll be too late. There's a word for that: market failure.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 80):
Of course grades are, in their most basic sense, a measure of how well a student understands the material.

Not anymore. The value of grades has been greatly diminished of late due to grade inflation (another market failure) and other factors. I'd be more impressed by an above average student demonstrating work ethic and success outside the classroom than a stellar student who is nothing more than a student.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11533 posts, RR: 15
Reply 82, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2608 times:

Now we know how much it costs to buy elections. Or, rather, how much corporations are willing to spend to buy candidates. The republic is lost...


Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15719 posts, RR: 26
Reply 83, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2602 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 81):
You can't just decide to crank out more specialists in a certain industry.

You don't exactly start from zero either.

Quoting Mir (Reply 81):
And given how low this country prioritizes long-term planning, by the time we figure out something needs addressing, it'll be too late. There's a word for that: market failure.

You cannot seriously be suggesting that the government decides what subjects need to be taught and how. What it amounts to is the government telling companies who actually hire these students what they need, which is never going to work. Furthermore, good luck finding any organization on the planet as inefficient and slow as the American government.

Quoting Mir (Reply 81):
The value of grades has been greatly diminished of late due to grade inflation (another market failure) and other factors.

Everyone is well aware that not all A's are created equal. How much an institution wants their grades to be worth is up to them. Whether they want to be the most rigorous place on the planet or one of those worthless, stupid-ass hippie schools that says everyone's a winner is their business.

Quoting Mir (Reply 81):
I'd be more impressed by an above average student demonstrating work ethic and success outside the classroom than a stellar student who is nothing more than a student.

I don't care how you judge people, that's your business. If you want to make decisions based on completely ridiculous criteria I don't care. My point is that if you are going to get government money, it has to be because you are the best. Not because you are a woman, or from the wrong side of the tracks, or anything else other than pure ability.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13040 posts, RR: 12
Reply 84, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2587 times:

It appears that Scott Walker has survived the recall vote. Wait until the next round of union and public worker bashing he is plotting now. This is also going to be seen as an endorsement of Republican/Tea Party/Conservative values. Already Republican Presidential Candidate Romney has congratulated Walker, sees his win as a huge endorsement for his and other Republican candidates. I also think that with the collapsing middle and working class in this country, they will do anything to cut their tax bills, even if they get hurt in the deal supproted Walker enough. Far too voters were affected by the massive spending onslaught of pro-corporate rich bastards who supported Walker.
I just hope the 'John Doe' investigations of Walker yield criminal indictments of him and his fellow party members.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39710 posts, RR: 75
Reply 85, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 17 hours ago) and read 2532 times:

Governor Scott Walker wins!
I find it interesting that the press has swept this story under the rug. Had Walker lost, it would have been on the front page of Yahoo, CNN and other major news outlets. Perhaps this is a sign of things to come....

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 84):
onslaught of pro-corporate rich bastards who supported Walker.


  
Oh stop whimpering.

Looks like Obama, his thugs that were bused in from outside, multiple visits from Andy Stern and all the death threats were not enough to defeat Scott Walker.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2713 posts, RR: 8
Reply 86, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2496 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 84):
It appears that Scott Walker has survived the recall vote.

He did not survive. He kicked A** again..I wish i could of seen those long faces at the Public sector Union hall's. The People rejected them soundly.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 84):
Far too voters were affected by the massive spending onslaught of pro-corporate rich bastards who supported Walker

Yes all the voters that voted for him are stupid and only listen to rich bastatrd's..LOL

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 84):
I just hope the 'John Doe' investigations of Walker yield criminal indictments of him and his fellow party members.

Seems this has touched close to home for you.

Quoting Mir (Reply 81):
Now we know how much it costs to buy elections. Or, rather, how much corporations are willing to spend to buy candidates. The republic is lost...

The public sector Union's will not be able to leech of the taxpayer. The republic has won.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2713 posts, RR: 8
Reply 87, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2490 times:

Wisconsin Voter Tells CNN: "Democracy Died Tonight"

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vid...ls_cnn_democracy_died_tonight.html

Here is one of those long faces. What is funny is that they claim that they had been "outspent" $34m to $4 million by big corporations. First thing Walker's campaign was funded by conservatives across the nation like me who sent in what they couold to help his campaign. And second they are only counting te money spent by Barrett in the last month after the primary. They seem to forget the $10's of million's that hte Unions from across the nation have spent in the last 17 month's. What a crock. Democracy won, The Republic won and the taxpayers won.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 3948 posts, RR: 28
Reply 88, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2482 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 84):
Wait until the next round of union and public worker bashing he is plotting now.

Wait, are Unions the only ones allowed to engage in petty, vindictive actions, such as recall votes?



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3001 posts, RR: 8
Reply 89, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2478 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 86):
He did not survive. He kicked A** again..

To "kick a**" would imply a landslide victory. Reagan's second term election was a "kick a**". Winning by less than 200,000 votes doesn't exactly scream "kick a**", though a respectable victory nonetheless.

HOWEVER

It looks like Democrats did win something last night: control of the Senate. Looks like unions managed to do what they wanted: put a stop to Walker's agenda.

The race is still too close to call but with all precincts reporting, it seems that the Democrat candidate leads by around 800. So to use your terminology: "he kicked a**"

Oh, and here's the link brought to you by your favorite (and only trusted) news source: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012...-senate-control-too-close-to-call/



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2713 posts, RR: 8
Reply 90, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 12 hours ago) and read 2473 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 88):
Wait, are Unions the only ones allowed to engage in petty, vindictive actions, such as recall votes?

Correct.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 89):
To "kick a**" would imply a landslide victory. Reagan's second term election was a "kick a**". Winning by less than 200,000 votes doesn't exactly scream "kick a**", though a respectable victory nonetheless.

Sorry but a 6 point margin of Victory is a butt kicking afterr all the whining and crying the last 17 month's you would think they would of done better than during the 2010 election. But it seem's no one really listened and all the money was wasted. The public sector unioin's received a kick in the teeth last night. As far as taking control of the Senate it is only by one vote and Walker still controls the house. The Republicans won 5 of the 6 recalls last night. Still a very good night for Walker and the Taxpaying citizens of Wisconsin.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6787 posts, RR: 34
Reply 91, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2458 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 82):
Now we know how much it costs to buy elections. Or, rather, how much corporations are willing to spend to buy candidates. The republic is lost...

WRONGO.

Of all of Walker's donations, only 5% were from PACs or super PACs. A whopping--and all the lefties should read this carefully--NINETY ONE PERCENT of all contributions came from *individuals*....so sorry, the Ed Schultz dog won't hunt. Period. Moot point and a false and specious argument. the people have spoken. Resoundingly.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 86):
He did not survive. He kicked A** again..I wish i could of seen those long faces at the Public sector Union hall's. The People rejected them soundly.

He did kick ass. Bigtime. And perhaps in the process, although there may be voter fatigue now, awoken a sleeping giant in the good people of Wisconsin. They're taking back their state and opted to accept the prudent fiscal choices like adults. It can work on a national level as well. But people have to understand that WI just voted itself to NOT jump over the cliff. What of states like IL? How about the awful state of CA? Or other tax hells such as NY?

WI just reversed the tide of the soft tyranny of public sector unions. And union members, by bailing in droves, have also been voting with their feet.

New liberty dawns in the Badger State.

 


User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6574 posts, RR: 6
Reply 92, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2445 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Congrats to to the GOP and Walker last night.. What do you guys think? Vice-Presidential candidate?


Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11533 posts, RR: 15
Reply 93, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2412 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 91):
NINETY ONE PERCENT of all contributions came from *individuals*

Millionares and billionares... We know...

Quoting mt99 (Reply 92):
What do you guys think? Vice-Presidential candidate?

Why not? He has spent more time on FOX News than speaking to his own people in Wisconsin.

Actually, this was a VERY GOOD thing for Democrats. DNC kept out of this race and, now, they can come back and say "SEE?? This is what multi national corporations and big money because of Citizens United is doing to destroy democracy in this country!!" This was a very good idea. I just hope it pays off! Especially after the right-wing budget there cuts millions from education and gives twice as much in tax breaks to the rich.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7832 posts, RR: 52
Reply 94, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2391 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 93):
Actually, this was a VERY GOOD thing for Democrats. DNC kept out of this race and, now, they can come back and say "SEE?? This is what multi national corporations and big money because of Citizens United is doing to destroy democracy in this country!!" This was a very good idea. I just hope it pays off! Especially after the right-wing budget there cuts millions from education and gives twice as much in tax breaks to the rich.

I'd hope that neither side would "sacrifice" a state and watch the destruction just to say "told you so!" The DNC wanted to win but they lost, I don't think this was part of some master plan.

Whether my guy wins the election or not, I ALWAYS wish the best for the politician and the people represented...



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6787 posts, RR: 34
Reply 95, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2370 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 93):
Millionares and billionares... We know...

Can you substantiate that? Nope? Didn't think so. Kthanksbye...


User currently offlineAlias1024 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2748 posts, RR: 2
Reply 96, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2368 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 85):
Governor Scott Walker wins!
I find it interesting that the press has swept this story under the rug. Had Walker lost, it would have been on the front page of Yahoo, CNN and other major news outlets. Perhaps this is a sign of things to come....

It would have been a bigger story if the recall had been successful. Only twice before in the nation's history has a sitting governor been recalled. It would have been a much bigger story if Gov. Walker had been the third.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 90):
The Republicans won 5 of the 6 recalls last night. Still a very good night for Walker and the Taxpaying citizens of Wisconsin.

Simply being in all the recall votes made it a bad night for Republicans. They never should have been there in the first place. If they had been willing to work WITH the public sector union like governors around the country have done since the great recession, they could have almost certainly come to some kind of acceptable resolution. I mean even loudmouth Gov. Christie was able to do that. Instead Wisconsin Republicans used budget problems as an excuse to launch an attack on labor rights, and wound up having to spend tens of millions to defend their seats.

Republicans like to look at last night as a win, but I don't see it that way. First, they lost control of the Senate. Also, voters are usually somewhat reticent to go along with a recall, and many believe that unless criminal activity has taken place, the only time to replace elected officials is at the end of their elected term. To win by six or seven points against a retread candidate, with the advantages of being an incumbent in a recall election, and having the President and DNC mostly sit on the sidelines......I'm not impressed.



It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
User currently offlinedfwrevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 962 posts, RR: 51
Reply 97, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2363 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 93):
Actually, this was a VERY GOOD thing for Democrats. DNC kept out of this race and, now, they can come back and say "SEE?? This is what multi national corporations and big money because of Citizens United is doing to destroy democracy in this country!!" This was a very good idea

Sorry, freedom of political speech is not destroying this country. Anyone who genuinely cares about democracy would not be looking to ration the First Amendment for groups of people.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 89):
To "kick a**" would imply a landslide victory. Reagan's second term election was a "kick a**". Winning by less than 200,000 votes doesn't exactly scream "kick a**", though a respectable victory nonetheless

Kick a*** doesn't imply anything other than kick a**, there is no official threshold for a landslide victory. In Reagan's 1984 landslide victory, he received 90% of the electoral college votes and 50.7% of the popular vote. Scott Walker actually took 54% of the vote last night. His margin of victory in the popular count was greater than Reagan's.


User currently offlinedfwrevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 962 posts, RR: 51
Reply 98, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2354 times:

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 96):
It would have been a bigger story if the recall had been successful. Only twice before in the nation's history has a sitting governor been recalled. It would have been a much bigger story if Gov. Walker had been the third.

No, wrong. This is the first time a governor has ever survived a recall attempt, which is a bigger historical feat than becoming the third governor recalled.

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 96):

Simply being in all the recall votes made it a bad night for Republicans. They never should have been there in the first place. If they had been willing to work WITH the public sector union like governors around the country have done since the great recession, they could have almost certainly come to some kind of acceptable resolution.

Bull. The Democratic legislators abdicated their responsibilities as elected representatives and fled the state. What resolution is feasible when the other side refuses to even sit down and negotiate?

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 96):
First, they lost control of the Senate.

Which probably won't ever meet.

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 96):
Also, voters are usually somewhat reticent to go along with a recall, and many believe that unless criminal activity has taken place, the only time to replace elected officials is at the end of their elected term.

Which is absolutely fair. Why would our best leaders step forward for political service if they will just be undermined the moment they must take hard and unpopular action?

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 96):
To win by six or seven points against a retread candidate, with the advantages of being an incumbent in a recall election, and having the President and DNC mostly sit on the sidelines......I'm not impressed.

The left is doing everything possible to put a sunny face on this loss, but they took an absolute shellacking. This election may be as important as November. States now have a green light to go after public unions. Based on the rate of members leaving unions in Wisconsin, we can conclude that most didn't even want to be in the union in the first place. A major power base for Democrats is now unraveling at light speed. This is the kind of change that will have impact for decades.


User currently offlinemke717spotter From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2445 posts, RR: 5
Reply 99, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2351 times:

Personally, I'm glad and relieved that Gov. Walker and most of the other Republicans defeated the recalls. No so much because I'm some die-hard Walker supporter, but more so since the recalls were a bunch of nonsense to begin with. The Democrats fled to state because things weren't going their way and then tried to recall Republicans from office for simply voting on a bill? Not to mention that in the few months leading up to the election almost nobody on the left was using the budget bill as one of their main talking points - the main reason the recalls were started up in the first place? IMO There was simply not enough justification here for a recall election.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 89):
It looks like Democrats did win something last night: control of the Senate. Looks like unions managed to do what they wanted: put a stop to Walker's agenda.

Still, there are no special sessions scheduled between now and November when 13 seats are up for election. The general consensus around here seems to be that Republicans will probably pick up a few seats due to favorable redistricting.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 89):
The race is still too close to call but with all precincts reporting, it seems that the Democrat candidate leads by around 800.

If the results hold true, that'd be a bit surprising since Gov. Walker won the county in question 53-47%. The returns from the state senate race in Racine were unusually slow and didn't finish coming in until well after midnight (all other races had been called by 9-10 PM) so perhaps it'd be worth to have a recount down here.



Will you watch the Cleveland Browns and the Detroit Lions on Sunday? Only if coach Eric Mangini resigned after a loss.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21529 posts, RR: 55
Reply 100, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2332 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 83):
You cannot seriously be suggesting that the government decides what subjects need to be taught and how. What it amounts to is the government telling companies who actually hire these students what they need, which is never going to work.

What it amounts to is the government ensuring that no one sector of an industry has a monopoly on the education of future workers in that industry.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 97):
Sorry, freedom of political speech is not destroying this country. Anyone who genuinely cares about democracy would not be looking to ration the First Amendment for groups of people.

Unlimited money in elections is destroying the electoral process. Too much power concentrated in too few hands. Anyone who genuinely cares about democracy would be looking to reverse that.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2713 posts, RR: 8
Reply 101, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2325 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 93):
Millionares and billionares... We know...

How do you know?



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8793 posts, RR: 24
Reply 102, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2303 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 82):

Now we know how much it costs to buy elections. Or, rather, how much corporations are willing to spend to buy candidates. The republic is lost...

LOL!!!!

Please provide evidence that Walker recieved more special interest money than the many millions poured in by the Unions and their flunkies. Just because the unions spent money busing people in, canvassing, threatening etc and did not declare the money as campaign donations does not mean that it wasn't spent in favor of the Dems.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 97):
Kick a*** doesn't imply anything other than kick a**, there is no official threshold for a landslide victory. In Reagan's 1984 landslide victory, he received 90% of the electoral college votes and 50.7% of the popular vote. Scott Walker actually took 54% of the vote last night. His margin of victory in the popular count was greater than Reagan's.

Just a small correction - Reagan won in 1984 with about 59% of the popular vote

Quoting Mir (Reply 100):
Unlimited money in elections is destroying the electoral process.

I agree. But the problem comes in cases such as we see in Wisconsin, or what we saw in previous elections over the past few years, where you have certain organizations, such as ACORN, or unions, who do a lot of canvassing and voter registration drives heavily targeted at democratic areas. They have even been caught, during registration drives, actually throwing away registration forms where the person checked off "Republican". Such activity does not get reported as official campaign spending.

I don't know if there are similar organized efforts on the conservative side - I just can't think of any.

I heard an estimate a couple of days ago that "official" presidential campaign spending will likely reach an eye-watering $4 billion - perhaps an extra billion or two more unofficially (unions etc). The total (for all presidential hopefuls) in 2004 was $717 million, and 343 million in 2000. In 2008, Obama alone spent $730 million (officially - not counting all the "help), more than double McCain's spending. for the 2012 campaign, Obama has already spent more money ($104 million) than Romney has ($88 million) even though Romney was in a tough primary battle and Obama wasn't. And we are just getting started.

The spending is getting obscene. There are dozens of countries who have a GDP smaller than $4 billion.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3001 posts, RR: 8
Reply 103, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2267 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 101):
Quoting seb146 (Reply 93):
Millionares and billionares... We know...

How do you know?

How do you not know?  



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6787 posts, RR: 34
Reply 104, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2266 times:

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 98):
The left is doing everything possible to put a sunny face on this loss, but they took an absolute shellacking.

I have to agree, although the time for a victory lap is today. Tomorrow it's back to work. There can't be any let up.

I loved this take, from another blogger, http://chicagoboyz.net/archives/30297.html :

Quote:
Mr. Walker’s victory is the Stalingrad of the Left.
They sought this recall election.
They chose to fight here.
They made it into a symbol and a do-or-die fight.
They threw everything they had into it.
And they lost it all.
Hubris led to Nemesis, to catastrophe.
The tide has turned.
On to Kursk.
On to Berlin.
On to November.

The Alberta Darling issue was a referendum on Walker. The left lost.
The David Prosser nonsense was a referendum and attempted shot at Walker. They failed again.
The attempt to recall Senate leader Fitzgerald was a disaster.
At every turn, the unions and lefties have tried to stymie Walker and at EVERY turn (save perhaps the final senate seat recall that’s TBD) they’ve been shut down, knocked back and crushed.

And Walker's spine will empower other governors to do the same thing. Public sector unions have been put on watch--their model is untenable, immoral, and not sustainable. Even the voters in CA made a dent last night BIGTIME in San Diego and San Jose by limiting government worker pensions and FINALLY taking some action at the ballot box to drwa the line in the sand.

And the funny thing is Barrett has actually used some of Walker’s reforms to his own benefit. IT’S WORKING.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 102):
Please provide evidence that Walker recieved more special interest money than the many millions poured in by the Unions and their flunkies. Just because the unions spent money busing people in, canvassing, threatening etc and did not declare the money as campaign donations does not mean that it wasn't spent in favor of the Dems.

It’s a complete riot to hear the lefties NOW complaining about money since the mobilization to defend Walker was so vigorous. Funny how they squawk and panic when the shoe is magically on the other foot huh? And since union members are leaving in droves—MASSIVE staggering numbers—that inherently ruins their campaign donation ATM in the process.

The simple truth is that Barrett’s PACs contributed the most of his funds, whereas it was a small fraction of Walker’s $$. In fact, 3/4s of Walker’s individual donations were for less than $50. This absolutely destroys the argument posited by seb146. Facts win every time.

http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/301907/walker-unbowed-editors


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8793 posts, RR: 24
Reply 105, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2254 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 104):
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/301907/walker-unbowed-editors
Quote:
Walker won because he represented the taxpayer, while his opponent represented the groups whose livelihoods depend on bilking the taxpayer.

And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the 2012 national election campaign in a nutshell.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinecargolex From United States of America, joined Apr 2010, 1261 posts, RR: 8
Reply 106, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2250 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 104):
Mr. Walker’s victory is the Stalingrad of the Left.
They sought this recall election.
They chose to fight here.
They made it into a symbol and a do-or-die fight.
They threw everything they had into it.
And they lost it all.
Hubris led to Nemesis, to catastrophe.
The tide has turned.
On to Kursk.
On to Berlin.
On to November.

When you hear stuff like that, it ought to be a red flag to you.

We're all Americans, and this kind of talk ends only in violence or oppression, regardless of what side of the spectrum your beliefs fall on. This person is making an explicit comparison between anybody who is not a conservative and the Nazis. And yet, the irony of that does not seem to occur to you.

The idea of eradicating any opposition, or anybody who's views differ from yours, that's not a particularly American thing. And that's the problem we have here - one side - the conservative side, simply wants to wipe the other side off the map. Not coexist, not find a way to move the country forward, simply eliminate or eradicate anybody who does not think like them. And then, rule with impunity when nobody has a voice left to oppose it.

That is why people were, and still are, very upset with Governor Walker. Contrary to your honestly intellectually devoid argument about collective bargaining rights being "immoral" (what are you, a 19th century robber baron?), he did not need to take away those rights. Those unions were willing to give up a great deal to help the short term situation of the state if they could keep those rights. Now they have lost them, and have no way to oppose anything that might be genuinely bad for workers.

This concept of destroying the opposition totally - of eradicating any voice that does not agree with you and any hope they have of organized representation - that's a radical notion, a radical fascist notion, by the way. Good things do not come out of such quests.

It's a very dangerous place to go.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39710 posts, RR: 75
Reply 107, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2225 times:

Quoting cargolex (Reply 106):
this kind of talk ends only in violence

...and slapping people is an act of violence.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2yGYfFQjybs



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 108, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2215 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 102):
They have even been caught, during registration drives, actually throwing away registration forms where the person checked off "Republican". Such activity does not get reported as official campaign spending.

I don't know if there are similar organized efforts on the conservative side - I just can't think of any.

Think "hanging chads"when it comes to votes.

Quoting cargolex (Reply 106):
The idea of eradicating any opposition, or anybody who's views differ from yours, that's not a particularly American thing. And that's the problem we have here - one side - the conservative side, simply wants to wipe the other side off the map. Not coexist, not find a way to move the country forward, simply eliminate or eradicate anybody who does not think like them. And then, rule with impunity when nobody has a voice left to oppose it.

Looking at things from some distance, I tend to agree that's the thrust of many on the right. Not just to win an election, fair enough, but to eliminate the opposition completely. Which does not serve democracy particularly well, IMHO. What I find particularly distressing, and it applies to Canada as well, and we already have a right-wing government, is the ideological rigidity they seem to carry with them. Principles are all well and good, but in the real world you have to be able to make deals that are reasonably acceptable to most (not all). I no longer see that happening in your country, nor in mine. In the longer run this is not a good thing.

In 1987 in the Canadian province of New Brunswick, Frank McKenna's Conservative party won all 58 seats in the legislature. All of them. McKenna is generally considered to be a "red" Tory, i.e., concedes that government has a role to play and is willing to take that up. To his great credit, he managed the situation adroitly, even granting the former government party (Liberal) official status, so they could have a modest staff and research budget. I believe there was also a Conservative member who was designated to pose questions submitted by the Liberals so there was at least some veneer of debate. In the subsequent election (1991) Tories won again, but 46 to 12, so there was an actual opposition.

Give and take is at the heart of democracy. In the end we all win. But merely take is not a sound formula.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2713 posts, RR: 8
Reply 109, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2210 times:

Quoting cargolex (Reply 106):
We're all Americans, and this kind of talk ends only in violence

Yep

'Kill Scott Walker': Left Unleashes Death Threats



Here are a few tweet's from the left.

Quote:
KILL SCOTT WALKER KILL SCOTT WALKER KILL SCOTT WALKER KILL SCOTT WALKER KILL SCOTT WALKER KILL SCOTT WALKER! Ole Bitch Ass Pig Ass Nigga!!!!

Somebody need to Abe Lincoln Scott Walker cave frog lookin ass.

I wanna kill scott walker so fucking baddd!!!!! & the racist dumb assholes that voted for him #nbs

Please somebody kill Scott Walker
http://twitchy.com/2012/06/06/kill-s...ats-after-wisconsin-recall-defeat/

Nice. Let us see if Eric Holder investigates these threat's



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineAlias1024 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2748 posts, RR: 2
Reply 110, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2205 times:

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 98):
Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 96):
Also, voters are usually somewhat reticent to go along with a recall, and many believe that unless criminal activity has taken place, the only time to replace elected officials is at the end of their elected term.

Which is absolutely fair. Why would our best leaders step forward for political service if they will just be undermined the moment they must take hard and unpopular action?

I never said it wasn't fair, only that it provided an advantage to Gov. Walker.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 98):
Bull. The Democratic legislators abdicated their responsibilities as elected representatives and fled the state. What resolution is feasible when the other side refuses to even sit down and negotiate?

Really??? First, I was talking about Gov. Walker compromising with the public sector unions, not the Democrats. Second, the precise reason the Democrats fled was because Gov. Walker and the Republicans were completely unwilling to compromise and remove the labor rights issues from the budget issues. They're seperate issues, and the Republicans refused to unthether them from eachother.

Quoting cargolex (Reply 106):
Those unions were willing to give up a great deal to help the short term situation of the state if they could keep those rights.

  

Quoting cargolex (Reply 106):
The idea of eradicating any opposition, or anybody who's views differ from yours, that's not a particularly American thing. And that's the problem we have here - one side - the conservative side, simply wants to wipe the other side off the map. Not coexist, not find a way to move the country forward, simply eliminate or eradicate anybody who does not think like them. And then, rule with impunity when nobody has a voice left to oppose it.

Exactly why most Republicans have turned me away from considering voting for them. I actually agree with much of their fiscal ideas, but between the uncompromising religious zealots and the uncompromising tea partiers, I can't vote for most Republican candidates. The ability to compromise matters to me. The ability to see the world is more complicated than black and white seems to be missing from so many Republican candidates these days. I see shades of gray and they don't seem to.



It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2713 posts, RR: 8
Reply 111, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2207 times:

Quoting cargolex (Reply 106):
?), he did not need to take away those rights. Those unions were willing to give up a great deal to help the short term situation of the state if they could keep those rights. Now they have lost them, and have no way to oppose anything that might be genuinely bad for workers.

Yes he did. He needed to protect the taxpayer. Walker beat Barrett by a wider margin than when the two men first squared off in 2010. To lose by a wider margin is the most devastating of all rebukes to public unions and to your point above.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 103):
Quoting windy95 (Reply 101):Quoting seb146 (Reply 93):
Millionares and billionares... We know...

How do you know?
How do you not know?

Because I am not a millionaire or billionaire. Nor are any of my friends who live here in Florida who danated to his campaign. Walkers campaign was a national campaign. And as Slider has posted the campaign has to show the records of who donated

Quoting slider (Reply 104):
whereas it was a small fraction of Walker’s $$. In fact, 3/4s of Walker’s individual donations were for less than $50. This absolutely destroys the argument posited by seb146. Facts win every time.

Not to many rich people here. Either that or those rich people are really cheap.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8793 posts, RR: 24
Reply 112, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2200 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 108):
Quoting cargolex (Reply 106):
The idea of eradicating any opposition, or anybody who's views differ from yours, that's not a particularly American thing. And that's the problem we have here - one side - the conservative side, simply wants to wipe the other side off the map. Not coexist, not find a way to move the country forward, simply eliminate or eradicate anybody who does not think like them. And then, rule with impunity when nobody has a voice left to oppose it.

Looking at things from some distance, I tend to agree that's the thrust of many on the right. Not just to win an election, fair enough, but to eliminate the opposition completely.

Talk about some people here living in a fantasy world with no relationship to reality... Jeez...

We disagree with you. We don't think the state is the solution to all evils. We believe that empowering the state too much damages and eventually destroys the human motivations which encourage man to work, grow, take risks, and make great steps forward. What you call "moving the country forward", we call setting up the nation for stagnation and eventual bankruptcy.

"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy." - Source unknown.

We wish to preserve the delicate balance where a society remains free and yet there are enough safety nets to help those who truly need it. It is a knife-edge.

I see far more intolerance on the left to ideas they disagree with. Look at the blacklisting that goes on with climate scientists who disagree with Global Warming - those who go against the religion must be found and silenced. http://american.com/archive/2010/jul...he-national-academy-of-blacklists/ How often do you see such action from the right?

Edit:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 109):
Quote:
KILL SCOTT WALKER KILL SCOTT WALKER KILL SCOTT WALKER KILL SCOTT WALKER KILL SCOTT WALKER KILL SCOTT WALKER! Ole Bitch Ass Pig Ass Nigga!!!!

Somebody need to Abe Lincoln Scott Walker cave frog lookin ass.

I wanna kill scott walker so fucking baddd!!!!! & the racist dumb assholes that voted for him #nbs

Please somebody kill Scott Walker
http://twitchy.com/2012/06/06/kill-s...feat/

I don't recall such open and frequent responses to Obama or other democratic politicians. The left, who describe themselves as the philosophy of tolerance, are anything but.

[Edited 2012-06-06 13:48:46]


Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5428 posts, RR: 8
Reply 113, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2180 times:

Quoting windy95 (Reply 109):
Here are a few tweet's from the left.

You're kidding.... everybody has had somebody say something idiotic like this. Republican, Democrat, Tea Party, Green, whoever, you can't control what the people say (remember this thing called freedom of speech) you can only control what a party or an organization promotes as a whole. I know people on each side do it, drag up obscure posting etc. but you don't agree with it when it is used against your points of view and if that is actually true then you should not do the same. But of course I think you are the same. You just talk out of the other side of your mouth. And that is what makes people like you what is wrong with the country. If you are not part of the solution and willing to live by what you think is the right thing to do then you are just part of the problem.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 112):
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy." - Source unknown.

So you are stating that the USA, and the concept it is founded on, is doomed? Because the quote works equally well for all parties and values. Plain and simple, it says the people will vote for themselves and that means that happened in this case too.

Very dumb quote to use.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6787 posts, RR: 34
Reply 114, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 2169 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 105):
And that, ladies and gentlemen, is the 2012 national election campaign in a nutshell.

Pretty much. And so by Walker having dismantled structurally one major special interest, and seeing how he got 365 of the union vote along with it, tells you the Dems will be desperate bigtime. Their base--which is only a fragmented group of special interests and hyphenated Americans--will splinter. And if Romney were smart, he'd focus on unity, on the economy, on economic and individual liberty to exploit it.

Quoting cargolex (Reply 106):
We're all Americans, and this kind of talk ends only in violence or oppression, regardless of what side of the spectrum your beliefs fall on. This person is making an explicit comparison between anybody who is not a conservative and the Nazis. And yet, the irony of that does not seem to occur to you.

Oh, calm down. So when some on the right talk in terms that the LEFT HAS OWNED for years, suddenly it's a problem? Hypocrisy much?

And congrats on making the quickest straight line to invoking Godwin's Law....nicely done.

So Alinsky's Rules for Radicals are the playbook for the Democrats but when on the right invokes a historical war reference (mind you, NOT a call to violence by any stretch of the imagination), suddenly that's a problem? Don't forget it was our own POTUS Obama that said "If they bring a knife, you bring a gun." Such an eloquent statesman.

If you want someone to blame, go blame the leftists. They're the ones who made the stakes so high in Wisconsin. They're the ones who essentially went "all in" at the poker table, lost and then bought back into the game, only to go all-in again and lose.

Quoting tugger (Reply 113):
I know people on each side do it

Really? Because for the past several years almost everyone on the right has made arguments against the Obama agenda and we've been branded racist, bigot, homophobe, you name it. And from the lips of Obama himself, we're "bitter clingers" to boot. But the vitriol--the true hate--is almost OWNED by the left. Death threats to Bush (Bush Derangement Syndrome still exists to be sure), the absolutely nasty stuff said about Palin (and now ANY conservative woman--Michelle Malkin, Rebecca Kleefisch now come to immediate mind) and then the overt calls to violence from the Occupy idiots. Meanwhile, at NO Tea Party do you ever see or hear this.

Being a knucklehead knows no party affilation, to be sure. But the real hate, the real intolerance truly comes from the party and political bent that claims to be the tolerant one.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8793 posts, RR: 24
Reply 115, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2156 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 113):
So you are stating that the USA, and the concept it is founded on, is doomed? Because the quote works equally well for all parties and values. Plain and simple, it says the people will vote for themselves and that means that happened in this case too.

Very dumb quote to use.

Why is it dumb? Is it stupid to listen to a warning of a cliff ahead? There is a balance to be kept. Liberty and the resultant inequalities on one side, and guaranteed income (aka equal poverty) and the loss of freedom that entails. The big question is can we hold a balance? Historically we have been slowly and steadily moving towards the latter. History shows that it is almost impossible to move the other way except by massive disruption and upheaval (what Greece is looking at). Instead of fighting that battle, we prefer to find the balance and stay there rather than dive off the deep end.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineATTart From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 116, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2154 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 114):
Being a knucklehead knows no party affilation, to be sure. But the real hate, the real intolerance truly comes from the party and political bent that claims to be the tolerant one.

BULL, BULL, BULL.

Just go back and read all of the hate towards the left coming from you, Windy, and Dreadnought. Just go to Fox Face Book page and read all of the hate posts from the right towards the Left, RINOS, and Independents like myself. I see hate from both the far left and the far rights like yourself.



Remember: When someone talks behind your back, it only means you're two steps ahead of them!
User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6787 posts, RR: 34
Reply 117, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2143 times:

Quoting ATTart (Reply 116):
BULL, BULL, BULL.

Just go back and read all of the hate towards the left coming from you, Windy, and Dreadnought. Just go to Fox Face Book page and read all of the hate posts from the right towards the Left, RINOS, and Independents like myself. I see hate from both the far left and the far rights like yourself.

Really? What hate is that? Find a quote. Go for it. I'll wait.

I may hate the IDEAS of the left, and I will commit myself to fight against it, but I don't personify it, nor has anyone here on this forum ever gone that far to make an overt threat against someone. After all, it's not Obama--history has had plenty of Obamas, and far worse. I'd rather have his ideas discredited and for people to awaken on their own. THAT'S real power. And we're seeing it in WI, which again, is why the left is hysterical today.

Kleefisch just had a death threat on video that said they're "coming for her" unless "cancer gets her first--which they hope"...niiiice....

Again, I don't say there isn't hate on either side, but the absolute personal dropping spewing vitriol emanates from the left. Know why? It's easy. There's an intrinsic reason for it. Because the left is all about emotion, feeling, claims of 'fairness' and equity but discounts all human nature, the history of mankind and his relationship to government, etc.

It's why a supporter slapped Tom Barrett last night after conceding and why that crying dude last night was hyperbolic in saying 'democracy was dead' after last night.

http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-T...s-CNN-This-is-the-End-of-Democracy

Check out that video...I mean, that's comic GOLD.


User currently offlineATTart From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 118, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2143 times:

Hate, Hate


http://thenewcivilrightsmovement.com...ill-gays/politics/2012/05/31/40330

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...%7Cdl1%7Csec3_lnk3%26pLid%3D162435


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1SZK5VJWNg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTiBv99MYDk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2839yEazcs



Remember: When someone talks behind your back, it only means you're two steps ahead of them!
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5428 posts, RR: 8
Reply 119, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2140 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 115):
Why is it dumb?

It is a dumb quote, at least in my opinion, because I believe that the USA can and will survive and thrive as a democracy.

Because it is saying at that no matter who it is, rational or otherwise, those voting are voting to benefit only themselves and that means Republicans or Democrats or whoever. And they will do so to the detriment of the nation. It makes no allowance that people might be rational and do what is needed for a democratic republic to continue. I disagree with that.

Right now there are people that believe "the candidate promising the most benefits" is the Republican candidate that states they will not raise any new taxes - period - even when we all know that some types of new/increased taxes will be and are needed to pay the bills of the largess that USA has lived for the last several decades. That is as dumb and as much a "loose fiscal policy" as those on the other side espousing only to raise taxes and not make deep cuts and big changes.

Your quote is saying the majority always votes for themselves what will gain them the most and that this leads to the downfall and failure (and a dictatorship and then for some reason a monarchy - oh and remember that a monarchy gets it power, its "right", straight from God....).

Quoting slider (Reply 114):
Really? Because for the past several years almost everyone on the right has made arguments against the Obama agenda and we've been branded racist, bigot, homophobe, you name it. And from the lips of Obama himself, we're "bitter clingers" to boot. But the vitriol--the true hate--is almost OWNED by the left. Death threats to Bush (Bush Derangement Syndrome still exists to be sure), the absolutely nasty stuff said about Palin (and now ANY conservative woman--Michelle Malkin, Rebecca Kleefisch now come to immediate mind) and then the overt calls to violence from the Occupy idiots. Meanwhile, at NO Tea Party do you ever see or hear this.

Being a knucklehead knows no party affilation, to be sure. But the real hate, the real intolerance truly comes from the party and political bent that claims to be the tolerant one.

I said it comes from both sides and I know that is true. And again what a party or organization espouses can be, is attempted to be, controlled to stay "on message". But the people that make up that party or organization cannot be wholly controlled (thank goodness) and will say all the the things noted. Both sides hate, and both sides have people that state that in various ways. It belongs to neither side more than the other.

And if you believe that it only "truly" comes from one side then you are delusional and cannot be reason with (because you are not of a rational state of mind). However I think you are rational and if you just sit and think about it you will realize that all 'sides" are equally guilty of this.

Tugg

[Edited 2012-06-06 14:37:55]


I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8793 posts, RR: 24
Reply 120, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2142 times:

Quoting ATTart (Reply 116):
Just go back and read all of the hate towards the left coming from you, Windy, and Dreadnought.

Calm down, have some dip...

What hate are you talking about? Where have Windy, myself or other conservatives here called for the death of anyone. When have we shown "hatred"? It seems to me that anyone who disagrees with you is guilty of "Hate", in your eyes.

You just crossed a very big line just now, accusing me and others of "Hate". I think the left are a mixture of cynics, manipulators and useful idiots, and disagree with them vehemently, but I don't hate them. This is hate:



Quoting windy95 (Reply 109):
Quote:
KILL SCOTT WALKER KILL SCOTT WALKER KILL SCOTT WALKER KILL SCOTT WALKER KILL SCOTT WALKER KILL SCOTT WALKER! Ole Bitch Ass Pig Ass Nigga!!!!

Somebody need to Abe Lincoln Scott Walker cave frog lookin ass.

I wanna kill scott walker so fucking baddd!!!!! & the racist dumb assholes that voted for him #nbs

Please somebody kill Scott Walker

I think an apology is appropriate.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineATTart From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 121, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2135 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 117):

Again, I don't say there isn't hate on either side, but the absolute personal dropping spewing vitriol emanates from the left. Know why? It's easy. There's an intrinsic reason for it. Because the left is all about emotion, feeling, claims of 'fairness' and equity but discounts all human nature, the history of mankind and his relationship to government, etc.

Again, bull crap..

I have people from the right call for my death. Saying I should die of Aids because I am gay.. I despise the far Right and the far left. They both act like spoiled rotten kids, it is either their way or the highway. PERIOD.

Again just go to the fox face book page and read the posts towards the left, rinos and independants



Remember: When someone talks behind your back, it only means you're two steps ahead of them!
User currently offlineATTart From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 122, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2129 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 120):

I think an apology is appropriate.

Not coming, since I did not wish the death of Scott Walker.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 120):
You just crossed a very big line just now, accusing me and others of "Hate". I think the left are a mixture of cynics, manipulators and useful idiots, and disagree with them vehemently, but I don't hate them. This is hate:

No, I did not cross any lines. I see the far right as cynics, manipulators and useful idiots. Really, you don't hate them.. But it is ok to call them names..



Remember: When someone talks behind your back, it only means you're two steps ahead of them!
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8793 posts, RR: 24
Reply 123, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2123 times:

Quoting ATTart (Reply 121):
I have people from the right call for my death. Saying I should die of Aids because I am gay.

That asswipe minister you posted has appeared on these forums a few weeks ago (in fact I think I brought him up), and we all agreed that he was a hater of the worst kind. But people like him are (fortunately) pretty rare.

You have equated what I and others here have said to be on par with Minister Asswipe. A think you should apologize.

Secondly, I have been to Tea Party rallies, and have also attended (from the sidelines) Occupy rallies. The language and vitriol I heard at Occupy was, shall we say, harsh. Occasionally to the level of "Kill ____", most often just short of that. but the hatred was definitely there. The Tea Party rallies I have seen were like church picnics in comparison. If someone were to get so out of whack to start saying "Kill Obama" or whatever, believe me all the TP people around him would have kicked the crap out of him in a minute. I saw no such restraint at Occupy down at Olympic Park. They were egging each other on.

You have extremists (i.e. haters) on both sides, but I maintain there are a lot more on the left.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinedfwrevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 962 posts, RR: 51
Reply 124, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2120 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 102):
Just a small correction - Reagan won in 1984 with about 59% of the popular vote

That's what I get for trusting Wikipedia  
Quoting Mir (Reply 100):
Unlimited money in elections is destroying the electoral process. Too much power concentrated in too few hands. Anyone who genuinely cares about democracy would be looking to reverse that.

More money is spent advertising potato chips or laundry detergent than will be spent on federal election campaigns in 2012. That more money is spent influencing our decision of laundry scent tells you everything you need to know about the magnitude of this "crisis."

The only people who see a benefit in allowing the government to restrict free speech are those who think they can use said power to silence their critics. That is not democracy.

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 110):
Really??? First, I was talking about Gov. Walker compromising with the public sector unions, not the Democrats.

The public sector unions gave no serious concessions to the Republicans. Let's be frank, what Walker ultimately "shoved" on the unions are labor conditions that are still extremely generous by private sector standards.

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 110):
Second, the precise reason the Democrats fled was because Gov. Walker and the Republicans were completely unwilling to compromise and remove the labor rights issues from the budget issues. They're seperate issues, and the Republicans refused to unthether them from eachother.

They are not separate issues. Public service unions are the root cause of the distorted pay and benefits of public sector employees.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8793 posts, RR: 24
Reply 125, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2120 times:

Quoting ATTart (Reply 122):
Really, you don't hate them.. But it is ok to call them names..

Ah, I get it. Calling people names (which happen to be descriptive), is equal to hate.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8191 posts, RR: 8
Reply 126, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2118 times:


Take a look at Florida trying to strip potentially Democrat voters of their right to vote. They had a WWII Vet (in his 90's) who was considered un-American enough to get the prove you're an American letter from the GOP lackeys in the state. Gotta be real proud of that.

And the overall conservative efforts to place obstructions to voting in various states. Making it more difficult to vote appears to be the new GOP sport. Enough that even you should gag over the efforts.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 78):
There was a controversy in my community recently because the local school district refused to remove cursive handwriting from the curriculum.

LOL! People actually wanted to cut out cursive handwriting? Good way to make them appear a bit more ignorant than they are. When you talk to a lot of HR personnel you get an unfortunate critique of the writing skills of applicants. Those skills downgraded include writing (printing & cursive) spelling, & grammar.

And why should VBA be taught in elementary school? There is really no guarantee that VBA will be around at an important level when a 2nd grader graduates high school. It might be like hanging onto Windows 95 because you learned it in summer school before your senior year of high school.

Right now the concern we should be having on employee's writing code (including building spreadsheets) is that there is little auditing of those new programs or spreadsheets. I'm talking about real auditors with skills to audit simple things like spreadsheets.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 78):
Corporations should have input on what balance of history, science, and math is thought in classrooms.

Corporations should be able to be clear about their future needs as they related to education. Smart companies do that, and they also provide some level of funding for schools to get what they want.

But not everyone works for a corporation. Start with a huge percentage of talented (and educated) people in the medical field.

Then, IIRC, more people work in small businesses than "corporations". There is a huge range of talents and skills there and most are not in engineering.

Actually, the country could not function with just engineers, Look at the most successful corporation in America today - Apple. Jobs made it very clear year after year that success was at the intersection of technology and liberal arts. There is a pretty important lesson there for success in the future. Like keeping cursive writing in elementary schools.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 78):
That's the power of studying a 21st century skill like engineering.

Compare Dell with Apple. Dell is an computer engineering company. Apple understands things like design. That intersection with Liberal Arts. Apple is now worth 25 times more than Dell. That's the power of the intersection.

Not everyone can be an engineer. If you had spend a tour in the military during, say, the Vietnam Era you would have seen a pretty broad cross section of America and you would have come out with a pretty good understanding of limitation some people have.

Just be very grateful that you have the mental abilities to get through an engineering degree. Also be glad that there were not a few hundred 4.0 engineering applicants for the single position you were fortunate enough to get. You got the benefit of supply & demand.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 7):
He will win easily.

Looks like he did, which is not a surprise with all the "out of state" money that has poured in. But that was tens of millions that won't be available for the November Election - it's been spent.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 9):

Yes, but I only want one master and that would be the company that supplies my paycheck

The ironic thing about people who hate unions is that they love one of the major benefits won by the unions - health insurance. With unions being diminished who is going to be there to maintain that benefit? Look for your "share" of the costs to increase faster than the premium costs if you live in a conservative state.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 17):
Right now I'm paying through the nose to live in Massachusetts and have no better "standard of living" than when I lived in Texas.

So move back. You'll be far happier. MA is bound to be far too liberal for you to be happy there so why not get your boots out and head south?

Quoting windy95 (Reply 3):
In Louisiana this year they are starting a statewide voucher program that will allow students of parent's who make below $60K to receive vouchers to transfer to private schools including religious schools of any-kind.

Louisiana is one of the last states that can afford that type of program. But they have a governor who wants to be the VP candidate so he's going to screw up the state's financial position even more to make him "look good" to conservatives. Unfortunately he is lacking in physical looks to be a successful national politician.

As far as vouchers for religious schools, wait until the Muslims start setting up schools there. Oooops!

Looks like voucher programs will help the Muslim School System as well as the there "religious" schools.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 42):
I'm just not sure why investors should pay lower rates than workers.

They shouldn't, but, hey, money talks and those in the investor bracket can afford to pour huge sums of money into campaigns.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 37):
As I recall from my private high school, we had about 800 students, 45 teachers and 6 or 7 in administration. How come they need so many staff

It would be interesting to see if the cost per student per year was lower than the taxpayer costs for public education. And how did your private school get teachers who were better than the public system? Pay them significantly more?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 37):
another person who can't tell the difference between Earned revenue (which is only taxed once) and capital gains (which is already taxed twice)

Actually, income should be taxed as income, not given some special status. There should be no difference between income from labor or income from working the stock market. WHile I don't believe in double taxing I do believe in allowing corporations to deduct Dividends paid as an expense, then tax (at normal rates) the dividend received by the shareholders. The special capital gains rates are a rip off we can't afford any longer. Romney making $20 Million a year and paying at his special little rate is simply an example of the changes needed.

But, regardless of where you put the tax break on dividends, you cannot create a fair & reasonable argument on why wealthy capital gains earners should get such a sweet ride when people with traditional jobs are taxed at higher rates.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 44):
When a company pays income taxes, this is money the investor will not be getting.

So what? When you work for an employer you are told your salary is $X per year. But you don't get that - you get a salary net of taxes (and other withholdings). You, like companies, have a silent partner in your income - the IRS.

And most investors understand this. Look at Apple. Investors are investing in the company because of their products, and future expectations on more outstanding products. AAPL's tax rate is in the mid 20s, but most investors don't care about that. They might get excited about the huge cash holding, but they will have little understanding of the multitude of tax liabilities the company has around the world.

Most investors understand the situation and don't need anyone's pity.

Quoting PPVRA (Reply 44):
Thus, it's costing the investor money because he owns that company.

Intelligent investors look at Net Income AFTER taxes. But they look at products and future potential just as critically.

As far as the investor "owing" the company - most only own a small part. If they are a full owner then they can have an S Corp and shift profits to their posinal returns.

Quoting windy95 (Reply 90):
Sorry but a 6 point margin of Victory is a butt kicking afterr all the whining and crying the last 17 month's you would think they would of done better than during the 2010 election.

Before getting too excited about the spread we need to look at the final numbers on the money side. This was a Citizens United victory, but we need to see how much "out of state money" was used to win the election.

Walker & friends outspent his opponent 7 to 1. That guy is clearly going to be the best governor that money can buy.

Quote:

There's really only one story in Wisconsin, though you wouldn't know it from the high paragraphs of most news analyses. It's M-O-N-E-Y.

Cash doesn't talk in 2012, it shouts, and Wisconsin was a sonic boom that's breaking glass in Chicago.

Conservative groups outspent unions and progs in Wisconsin by an estimated SEVEN-TO-ONE.
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 102):
I don't know if there are similar organized efforts on the conservative side - I just can't think of any.
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 102):
The spending is getting obscene.

Citizens United will cause the price tag go even higher. Look for big money to win in the future, which is what is giving Willard more hope than any opinion poll.

Quoting slider (Reply 104):
Facts win every time.

Right. Especially when you reference right wing publications.

Try POLITICO for not-so-hard-right "facts"

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 110):
Exactly why most Republicans have turned me away from considering voting for them.

I grew up in a Conservative home (with a Father in the oil business), but that kind of conservative has been pushed out of today's party. Today we're called Moderates or Liberals (conservatives can't understand the difference) and it is only getting worse.

User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8793 posts, RR: 24
Reply 127, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2120 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 126):
Citizens United will cause the price tag go even higher. Look for big money to win in the future, which is what is giving Willard more hope than any opinion poll.

Why do you keep mentioning Citizens United. As far as I can tell, their total spending budget for the year is about $12 million. They are a small player.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineATTart From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 128, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2112 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 123):
That asswipe minister you posted has appeared on these forums a few weeks ago (in fact I think I brought him up), and we all agreed that he was a hater of the worst kind. But people like him are (fortunately) pretty rare.

As you equated me to the person who called for Scott Walker's Death. People like him are not rare from the far right. I have seen more from the far right.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 123):
You have equated what I and others here have said to be on par with Minister Asswipe. A think you should apologize.

Apology is not going to happen, until you apologize for all those from the far right want us gays to die from aids.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 123):
The Tea Party rallies I have seen were like church picnics in comparison. If someone were to get so out of whack to start saying "Kill Obama" or whatever, believe me all the TP people around him would have kicked the crap out of him in a minute. I saw no such restraint at Occupy down at Olympic Park. They were egging each other on.

Well, my brother is a TP. So I have been to many TP rallies, I have seen a lot more Kill Obama, I saw no restraint from other TPs

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 123):
You have extremists (i.e. haters) on both sides, but I maintain there are a lot more on the left.

Well, I maintain if is equal from both sides



Remember: When someone talks behind your back, it only means you're two steps ahead of them!
User currently offlineATTart From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 129, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 3 hours ago) and read 2112 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 125):

Ah, I get it. Calling people names (which happen to be descriptive), is equal to hate.

Yes, it is.. Names are used for belittling people, insulting people, bulling people, and so on.

So you are saying me saying you hate is worse, than calling some an idiot???

[Edited 2012-06-06 15:07:41]


Remember: When someone talks behind your back, it only means you're two steps ahead of them!
User currently offlineATTart From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 130, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2106 times:

National Review Writer: Conservatives Should ‘Beat’ Young People Who ‘Think Socialism Is Better Than Capitalism’


http://thinkprogress.org/politics/20...-better-than-capitalism/?mobile=nc

[Edited 2012-06-06 15:20:20]


Remember: When someone talks behind your back, it only means you're two steps ahead of them!
User currently offlinemke717spotter From United States of America, joined Dec 2005, 2445 posts, RR: 5
Reply 131, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2100 times:

Another source of satisfaction was when unabashedly liberal MSNBC host Ed Schultz appeared to be on the verge of tears last night, as it became clear that Gov. Walker had defeated the recall. For months now, MSNBC had been hyping this recall election and the speedy victory came as a shock for the MSNBC pundits who were gearing up for a long night. Ultimately, the race wasn't as close as Schultz predicted — Walker won the election with 53% of the vote, compared to 46% for Barrett. As the results became more clear Tuesday night, Schultz finally admitted defeat, telling viewers that it was "not going to be an easy night for this broadcaster." Schultz said, "To say that I’m shocked and stunned is pretty much an understatement" and he added later that Walker "could be indicted in the next few days," although he didn't give any evidence to back up that seemingly wild assertion.


Will you watch the Cleveland Browns and the Detroit Lions on Sunday? Only if coach Eric Mangini resigned after a loss.
User currently offlineATTart From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 132, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2090 times:

As, much fun as this has been. It is time to go catch my flight.. Getting away from American Politics and the News for a couple of weeks. I need to detox from it all!!!!!!!!!!


Remember: When someone talks behind your back, it only means you're two steps ahead of them!
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 133, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2091 times:

Holy cow ! I don't think I've seen this level of (im)polite discourse in quite a long time.

Perhaps everyone should step back, take a valium or have a drink, get away from A.net for a while. Calm down everyone. And I don't even have a horse in the race, so to speak.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2713 posts, RR: 8
Reply 134, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2084 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 113):
You're kidding....

No I am not....Sorry but the left spews hate especially when they lose.

Quoting slider (Reply 114):
But the vitriol--the true hate--is almost OWNED by the left

Yep.

Quoting ATTart (Reply 116):
Just go back and read all of the hate towards the left coming from you, Windy

Please show me the hate towards people. You have gone way overgoard here.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 126):
Take a look at Florida trying to strip potentially Democrat voters of their right to vote

Yes removing non citizens and dead people from the roles is removing democratic voter's.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 126):
. But that was tens of millions that won't be available for the November Election - it's been spent.

The union's have wasted way more of their members money in the recall.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 126):
Walker & friends outspent his opponent 7 to 1. That guy is clearly going to be the best governor that money can buy.

Yes keep that lie going.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2713 posts, RR: 8
Reply 135, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2076 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 133):
Holy cow ! I don't think I've seen this level of (im)polite discourse in quite a long time.

Perhaps everyone should step back, take a valium or have a drink, get away from A.net for a while. Calm down everyone. And I don't even have a horse in the race, so to speak

It will only get worse. There is going to be a war between the taxpayers and those wishing to waste the taxpayers money. $16T in debt and rolling plus what the states like Illinois and California have will not be fixed on the back's of those paying taxes. The spending and abuse must end. And public sector union's are a great place to start.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3001 posts, RR: 8
Reply 136, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 2 hours ago) and read 2075 times:

What I find most intriguing here is that when left-wing post suddenly appear calling for the death of a right-winger, it's bad, it's unpatriotic, it's disgraceful and a shame for politics. If a leftist insults a right-winger, it's the end of the world...and yet...somehow, it's OK for the right-wing to insult the left-wing.

I've read the posts here of people calling foul once they saw the Kill Scott Walker tweets (something I do not condone of anyone regardless of political and religious beliefs), yet where were you when Sarah Palin had the "Don't retreat, reload" slogan and had the map that targeted some politicians (and not with any pointer, no sirree, but with crosshairs)?

So, if a right-winger ever wrote something like Death to Obama (something which has been documented a couple of times) it's OK because Obama is doing a bad job and even then it's only one lunatic that has nothing to do with the rest of the right-wingers, yet when a left-winger calls for the death of someone it's plain wrong because the person is doing a fantastic job and it's just all left-wingers who are upset (not even the sensibility to exclude many of us that lean to the left and do not support this kind of behavior).

Not justifying the tweets, but I am rather upset that none of you had the decency to not generalize.



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently onlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8942 posts, RR: 40
Reply 137, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2067 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 126):
So what? When you work for an employer you are told your salary is $X per year. But you don't get that - you get a salary net of taxes (and other withholdings). You, like companies, have a silent partner in your income - the IRS.

Yes, and investors get their profit distributions net of income taxes too - and then, on top, pay a distribution tax.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 126):
And most investors understand this. Look at Apple. Investors are investing in the company because of their products, and future expectations on more outstanding products. AAPL's tax rate is in the mid 20s, but most investors don't care about that. They might get excited about the huge cash holding, but they will have little understanding of the multitude of tax liabilities the company has around the world.

Most investors understand the situation and don't need anyone's pity.

First you say this.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 126):
Intelligent investors look at Net Income AFTER taxes.

. . .then you say this.

Which way is it, Ken?

As a side note, try to stick with the subject. We are discussing the concept of separate taxable entities and double taxation, not the validity of EBITDA.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 126):
s far as the investor "owing" the company - most only own a small part.

So?

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 126):
If they are a full owner then they can have an S Corp and shift profits to their posinal returns.

Yes indeed. And do you know why that is? Because S Corp is not a separate taxable entity, which means it does not pay corporate income taxes. However that doesn't mean the owner avoids income taxes, as you noted yourself.



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offline2707200X From United States of America, joined Mar 2009, 8467 posts, RR: 1
Reply 138, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days 1 hour ago) and read 2056 times:

The Hypocrisy of the right wing is atrocious and once again Dreadnought and Windy95 prove my point.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 120):
I think an apology is appropriate.

Since all liberals are responsible for this lunatic are you going to defend that statement by New York Republican yes Republican Representative Nan Hayworth saying "people should hurl some acid" at Democratic women as he had faced a tough reelection bid. I wonder of the conservatives in here have the cojones to defend Nan or just not answer it like they usually do.

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 136):
So, if a right-winger ever wrote something like Death to Obama

If all liberals are accountable for one man then by guilt of association as the right wing likes to play should defend every god damn statement including the acid throwing statement made by Nan

Quoting windy95 (Reply 134):
No I am not....Sorry but the left spews hate especially when they lose.

If I had a million bucks...



"And all I ask is a tall ship and a star to steer her by." John Masefield Sea-Fever
User currently offlinedfwrevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 962 posts, RR: 51
Reply 139, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2025 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 126):
LOL! People actually wanted to cut out cursive handwriting? Good way to make them appear a bit more ignorant than they are. When you talk to a lot of HR personnel you get an unfortunate critique of the writing skills of applicants. Those skills downgraded include writing (printing & cursive) spelling, & grammar.

Writing skills are not the same as hand writing skills. Call me skeptical that time spent on handwriting form is better than time spent on grammar and syntax. Ultimately, handwriting is a dead skill in business whereas programming is not.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 126):
And why should VBA be taught in elementary school? There is really no guarantee that VBA will be around at an important level when a 2nd grader graduates high school.

Because VBA is simple, widely accessible, and develops logic skills that support algebra, geometry, calculus, and more advanced programming languages.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 126):
Corporations should be able to be clear about their future needs as they related to education. Smart companies do that, and they also provide some level of funding for schools to get what they want. But not everyone works for a corporation.

I don't disagree. I said corporate employers should have their share of representation in setting education standards. That is significantly different than connies4ever's absolute statement that they should have no input whatsoever.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 126):
So move back. You'll be far happier. MA is bound to be far too liberal for you to be happy there so why not get your boots out and head south?

I will, as I said I am here temporarily. But no, MA is not "too liberal" for me. Politics does not dominate my life and I can have perfectly functional relationships with people who disagree with my preferences.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 126):
USER PROFILE SEND INSTANT MSG ADD TO RESP MEMBERS SUGGEST DELETION
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 126):
Not everyone can be an engineer. If you had spend a tour in the military during, say, the Vietnam Era you would have seen a pretty broad cross section of America and you would have come out with a pretty good understanding of limitation some people have.

Just be very grateful that you have the mental abilities to get through an engineering degree.

Part of the reason I move around is that I like getting a cross section of our country. This is still a country in which one's outcome in life is predominately determined by personal choices and not birthright, luck, or happenstance. My personal take is that far more of us are limited by our own passiveness than actual talent or capability.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8793 posts, RR: 24
Reply 140, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2030 times:

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 138):
Since all liberals are responsible for this lunatic are you going to defend that statement by New York Republican yes Republican Representative Nan Hayworth saying "people should hurl some acid" at Democratic women as he had faced a tough reelection bid.
Quoting 2707200X (Reply 138):
If all liberals are accountable for one man then by guilt of association as the right wing likes to play should defend every god damn statement including the acid throwing statement made by Nan

Twice you say that Nan herself said this - she did not. One of her staff said it, and she was forced to resign - rightfully, IMHO.

Quoting 2707200X (Reply 138):
The Hypocrisy of the right wing is atrocious and once again Dreadnought and Windy95 prove my point.

What hypocrisy?

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 136):
I've read the posts here of people calling foul once they saw the Kill Scott Walker tweets (something I do not condone of anyone regardless of political and religious beliefs), yet where were you when Sarah Palin had the "Don't retreat, reload" slogan and had the map that targeted some politicians (and not with any pointer, no sirree, but with crosshairs)?

The "Kill Walker" quotes seem pretty explicit, not figures of speech. Palin's comments about "don't retreat, reload" was just a figure of speech. If you insist on taking her words literally (let's ban all euphemisms, shall we?), the explain why she said "reload". As far as I know, nobody has fired a gun at Obama. Now, if she had said that right after an assassination attempt, then I would agree that the comments would have been completely out of line.

The trouble is that you seem to have trouble distinguishing between the use of metaphor and figures of speech, and those who seem to really mean it. Should we arrest every high school student for making death threats for shouting "Kill the Trojans" at a football game?



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21529 posts, RR: 55
Reply 141, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2023 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 102):
But the problem comes in cases such as we see in Wisconsin, or what we saw in previous elections over the past few years, where you have certain organizations, such as ACORN, or unions, who do a lot of canvassing and voter registration drives heavily targeted at democratic areas.

I don't have a problem with registration drives. I'm all for more people voting. That's not in the same vein as trying to influence people a certain way with media campaigns.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 102):
They have even been caught, during registration drives, actually throwing away registration forms where the person checked off "Republican".

This I have a problem with, but it shouldn't be too hard to fix if the forms are kept better track of.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 112):
"A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy." - Source unknown.

That's just as much of a warning for the GOP as the Democrats. The strategy of both parties has become selling themselves as being able to give people something for nothing.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 124):
That more money is spent influencing our decision of laundry scent tells you everything you need to know about the magnitude of this "crisis."

Not an accurate comparison - of course companies are going to spend more marketing to their actual consumers than trying to influence government. That doesn't mean that that influencing isn't dangerous to the democratic process.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineATTart From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 638 posts, RR: 0
Reply 142, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 4 days ago) and read 2026 times:

One last one before I step onto my friends plane. Since I have been banned to take my laptop with me on holiday.


Family leader vows to never stop hating LGBT people


http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/06/0...lgbt-people/#.T8_zQdzVIk8.facebook

Fischer: If Gays Aren't Discriminated Against, Christians Will Be

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HpwCCWdZb8Y&feature=player_embedded



Remember: When someone talks behind your back, it only means you're two steps ahead of them!
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8191 posts, RR: 8
Reply 143, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 3 days 23 hours ago) and read 1996 times: