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Saudi Woman Stands Up To Vice And Virtue Police  
User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4288 times:

Good going, there is a limit to being dictated it can really put one off religion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uimzl-CxSno

72 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinekaitak From Ireland, joined Aug 1999, 12468 posts, RR: 37
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 4271 times:

One small victory (or, what we saw of it - who knows what went on after the camera was turned off?). Still, good on the women for standing up to the mutawa, but it'll take a lot more than that to change Saudi society.

User currently onlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3098 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 4221 times:

Slowly but surely Saudi Arabia's women are waking up. Last decade this would have been unheard of and punishable immediately.


"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlineGDB From United Kingdom, joined May 2001, 13206 posts, RR: 77
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4181 times:

You wonder what the normal Saudi cops think of the Mutleys, Mutawa, or whatever these jumped up, illiterate, wannabe panty sniffers are called.
Time wasters at the very least.

Brave lady though.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19699 posts, RR: 58
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4181 times:

Quoting GDB (Reply 3):
You wonder what the normal Saudi cops think of the Mutleys, Mutawa, or whatever these jumped up, illiterate, wannabe panty sniffers are called.

School bullies who get official license that they are doing God's work?


User currently offlineplanejamie From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2011, 576 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4162 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 4):
School bullies who get official license that they are doing God's work?

  

Having lived in Riyadh for 2 years, they are nothing but a pain. They check that shops close for 30-45 minutes every prayer call (leaving shop keepers fearfully closing the shops only to have all the shoppers, mostly Saudi Nationals and therefore probably Muslim sat outside the shop smoking and the Filipino or Indian shop workers going out the back for a smoke too) and telling 'western' women to cover their heads (despite it not being a law for your head to be covered in a mall or non-religious public place provided they are wearing the all black abaya). The response from the women is normally "If you say please I will" or "Make me" to which they just go away or don't understand.

Personally, I feel they are a bit power-mad and over the top but it's all part of Saudi life and culture, and if you don't like it - there's plenty of more 'open' and 'free' neighbouring countries you can go to, though kudos to this woman for standing up for herself  


User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6814 posts, RR: 34
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4152 times:

Listen, there is a serious women's rights issue in the entire Middle East--this is NOT just a Saudi issue, although their obvious strong-handed Wahhabist-driven bent is certainly more visible.

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2012/04/23/why_do_they_hate_us

Read. Seriously read. You want to take about a war on women? It's going on right now in front of our very noses and the Western world does shit about it.

I'm very proud and happy to see this woman standing up for herself, but in her world, women are property. Period. Been that way in Islam since, oh, the 7th century.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19699 posts, RR: 58
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4153 times:

Quoting planejamie (Reply 5):
and if you don't like it - there's plenty of more 'open' and 'free' neighbouring countries you can go to,

Not if you're a Saudi woman who can't read because you were never permitted to go to school.


User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5599 posts, RR: 8
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4145 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
Quoting planejamie (Reply 5):
and if you don't like it - there's plenty of more 'open' and 'free' neighbouring countries you can go to,

Not if you're a Saudi woman who can't read because you were never permitted to go to school.

Can a Saudi woman travel on her own if she wishes? Can she leave the country all by herself with any escort or permission form a man?

Just curious.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineronglimeng From Canada, joined Oct 2006, 625 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4125 times:

I enjoyed that piece but it would be nice to learn that the lady is just an ordinary woman who got fed up with these guys rather than a woman of privilege (Saudi Princess or the like), who these V&V boys tangled with by mistake

User currently onlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3098 posts, RR: 8
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4119 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 8):
Can a Saudi woman travel on her own if she wishes? Can she leave the country all by herself with any escort or permission form a man?

Saudi law states that a woman MUST be accompanied by a male guardian (usually a close male relative) wherever she goes. A woman alone in a place other than her home is taboo AFAIK. To leave the country, she must either travel with a male guardian or seek a written permit from him.

IMO, I get that Saudi Arabia is the center of Islam, but wouldn't it make sense for the king to designate the provinces that contain the holy sites as places where Islam customs must be followed without exception, and implement reforms on the rest of the kingdom? I can get that women don't have a problem with the abaya, but having the ability to drive is something I think benefits women, especially if in the situation where she has no male guardian with her. That's another issue: relaxing the rules on male guardianship (even if places are segregated).



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3475 posts, RR: 17
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 4093 times:
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The head of the religious police responded by apologising to the woman and ordering an immediate investigation of the action of the person in question as he was acting out of the new guidance. Vice police are only allowed to guide you if you are acting out of order, they can not expel you from the shopping centers, they are not allowed to arrest, touch, harm anybody. As ordered by the king.
Women are responding the way this woman did BTW she is just a normal lady not a princess or anything close to that, that's why you see the police just standing there doing nothing just trying to keep the peace.
Good start for the women in Saudi.



I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14026 posts, RR: 62
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 4072 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 11):
The head of the religious police responded by apologising to the woman and ordering an immediate investigation of the action of the person in question as he was acting out of the new guidance. Vice police are only allowed to guide you if you are acting out of order, they can not expel you from the shopping centers, they are not allowed to arrest, touch, harm anybody. As ordered by the king.
Women are responding the way this woman did BTW she is just a normal lady not a princess or anything close to that, that's why you see the police just standing there doing nothing just trying to keep the peace.
Good start for the women in Saudi.

I understand that the King curbed the powers of the Mutawa during the last few years, using incidents the Mutawa were involved in to get popular support for his measures. E.g. AFAIK the ban of using violence or physical force came after some Mutawa beat a man to death after they found him not to be praying at prayer time.
The other big thing a few years ago was when a boarding school for girls caught fire during a night and Mutawa sent the girls and teachers back into the burning building because "they were not dressed properly" (having been caught by the fire while in bed, most of them escaped from the building in their night clothes and didn´t have time to put on an Abaya). Several girls and women died, who were also wellconnected and the whole incident caused an outrage in the country.

The problem is that the Mutawa recruit from fundementalist circles and the King has to be very careful as not to overstep a line because some of the radicals will use violence and it might start a civil war. They also have the backing of more conservative feudal tribal leaders. The King has to use incidents like those mentioned above, when he has strong popular support, to restrict the powers of the Mutawa and clerics, and therefore it is a slow process, but the process is definitely there.

I have also heard that the King has founded a university in a city close to the Red Sea, where both young men and women are educated together.

BTW, I was in Sharja, UAE, two weeks ago for work and the women there, even though wearing the Abaya, didn´t seem to be meek, especially those of the immigration department.

Jan


User currently offlinen229nw From United States of America, joined Sep 2004, 1950 posts, RR: 31
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 4046 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 6):
Read. Seriously read. You want to take about a war on women? It's going on right now in front of our very noses and the Western world does shit about it.

I'm very proud and happy to see this woman standing up for herself, but in her world, women are property. Period. Been that way in Islam since, oh, the 7th century.

  

I am not denying that women's rights are much more developed in most "Western" countries compared to most of the Middle East. However:

These blanket statements about Islam are just ridiculous.

The Bible also treats women as property. As much as the Koran. (In Genesis if a bride can't prove her virginity, she should be stoned to death, men were allowed multiple wives, and lovers, women are commanded to marry any man who rapes them, women could be taken as war spoils and forced into marriage, etc. etc. etc.)

And women in "the West" were treated that way legally until the last hundred years.

So yes, you can compare apples to apples and note the progress to be made in women's rights in many countries, but to chalk it up to inherent differences between religions or "Western" vs. "Eastern" culture is just prejudice, and comparing apples to oranges. Our own progress on this front is quite recent, and still ongoing (As with race, gay rights, etc.) In fifty years, things can change drastically in a culture. And it will happen--it is a question of when. There are Islamic scholars calling for more tolerant and looser interpretations of the Koran just as there have been Christian scholars who have done that. And, at whatever stage this process is in, there will also always be backlash from men in established positions. Look at the recent censure of American nuns by the Vatican...



It's people like you what cause unrest!
User currently offlineDarksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1362 posts, RR: 3
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 4038 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 11):

The head of the religious police responded by apologising to the woman and ordering an immediate investigation of the action of the person in question as he was acting out of the new guidance. Vice police are only allowed to guide you if you are acting out of order, they can not expel you from the shopping centers, they are not allowed to arrest, touch, harm anybody.

So what would be the reason there was no consequence for the incident where these people locked a number of women and girls in a burning school? There were numerous fatalities, and the response was... Nothing. This is unfortunate, but hardly surprising for saudi.



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8707 posts, RR: 42
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 4027 times:

Quoting n229nw (Reply 13):
These blanket statements about Islam are just ridiculous.

They certainly are and sometimes I wonder what they are supposed to achieve... spread fear of a "Green Menace" just like McCarthy's crusade was supposed to scare them of the "Red Menace"?

Anyway, I liked what I read from SOBHI51 and MD11Engineer, so thank you! It's good to see that progress is occurring, however slow and meandering it may be.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineplanejamie From United Kingdom, joined Sep 2011, 576 posts, RR: 0
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 4015 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 8):
Can a Saudi woman travel on her own if she wishes? Can she leave the country all by herself with any escort or permission form a man?

Just curious.

Tugg
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 10):
Saudi law states that a woman MUST be accompanied by a male guardian (usually a close male relative) wherever she goes. A woman alone in a place other than her home is taboo AFAIK. To leave the country, she must either travel with a male guardian or seek a written permit from him.

Actually, they can leave the country on their own (at least my mum did many times) and she has Saudi friends who have gone in/out of the country on their own many times. Saudi women can't drive themselves but can be driven by a driver who needs a letter to state that either her husband or her father (if not yet married) has permission to drive them.

Women don't need to be accompanied wherever she goes and if you go into any of the malls or even the rougher parts of Riyadh you'll see Saudi women walking alone or in a group of women with no problem at all.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
Not if you're a Saudi woman who can't read because you were never permitted to go to school.

True, though that is improving as I believe a new girl's only university has been (or at least was being) built in Riyadh ironically within the airport boundaries (though RUH covers an area of land the size of the island of Bahrain)

I think only the most deprived women or women from a very very traditional background (e.g. ones still living in remote areas and not the towns or cities) cannot read or write. I do agree many still do not work, though that is through choice and not a law.


User currently onlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3098 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 22 hours ago) and read 3987 times:

Quoting planejamie (Reply 16):
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 10):
Saudi law states that a woman MUST be accompanied by a male guardian (usually a close male relative) wherever she goes. A woman alone in a place other than her home is taboo AFAIK. To leave the country, she must either travel with a male guardian or seek a written permit from him.

Actually, they can leave the country on their own (at least my mum did many times) and she has Saudi friends who have gone in/out of the country on their own many times. Saudi women can't drive themselves but can be driven by a driver who needs a letter to state that either her husband or her father (if not yet married) has permission to drive them.

Women don't need to be accompanied wherever she goes and if you go into any of the malls or even the rougher parts of Riyadh you'll see Saudi women walking alone or in a group of women with no problem at all.

Oh well, you were there so you know more than I do. I just posted what I had read. 



"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlineSOBHI51 From Saudi Arabia, joined Jun 2003, 3475 posts, RR: 17
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 3965 times:
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Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
Not if you're a Saudi woman who can't read because you were never permitted to go to school.

Over 132,000 Saudi females were admitted in Higher education programs this year in Saudi universities, around 6000 females are traveling abroad each year to continue there university degrees.

There is over 2000 schools for girls in the Kingdom.

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 14):
So what would be the reason there was no consequence for the incident where these people locked a number of women and girls in a burning school? There were numerous fatalities, and the response was... Nothing. This is unfortunate, but hardly surprising for saudi.

This unfortunate incident was caused by fear mainly, the people in charge at the school refused to open the school gates so the girls do not go out, fire brigades could not go in, it was a very sad incident.
Lessons were learned and steps were taken so this incident will not be repeated.
I said it before will say it again, it is not all perfect here but things are improving, not as fast as i love to see but it is improving.

Quoting planejamie (Reply 16):
True, though that is improving as I believe a new girl's only university has been (or at least was being) built in Riyadh ironically within the airport boundaries

Very true, and it is huge, they even have a monorail driven by women.

Quoting n229nw (Reply 13):
These blanket statements about Islam are just ridiculous.

Some here likes to show there prejudice by bringing Islam into any discussion just to prove there hatred to this religion, got used to that and it does not bother me anymore.

Quoting GDB (Reply 3):
You wonder what the normal Saudi cops think of the Mutleys, Mutawa, or whatever these jumped up, illiterate, wannabe panty sniffers are called.
Time wasters at the very least.

I have a hate love relation with those people, but, i feel happy having them around sometimes specially when my daughter and/or my wife go shopping, some of the Saudi male youth are really very rude and like to verbally harass women, and there fear from them keep them in check.

Speaking about education, this woman was having a fight with that person but at the same time she was talking on the phone, tweeting, filming, you tubing and facebooking, or at least that's what she said. Honestly i can not do that.

[Edited 2012-06-05 18:27:39]


I am against any terrorist acts committed under the name of Islam
User currently offlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1215 posts, RR: 1
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 17 hours ago) and read 3882 times:

Quoting slider (Reply 6):
I'm very proud and happy to see this woman standing up for herself, but in her world, women are property. Period. Been that way in Islam since, oh, the 7th century.

Remind me again what year women in the US legally became separate from their husbands.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 12):
I understand that the King curbed the powers of the Mutawa during the last few years, using incidents the Mutawa were involved in to get popular support for his measures.

King Abdullah is very much a reformer (compared to most other Saudis of influence) which is great for Saudi Arabia. Unfortunately progress is slow and his likely successor, Prince Nayef, is a hardcore conservative who seems to want to resist change.

For those interested in this topic I would highly recommend reading a book entitled 'Inside the Kingdom' written by Robert Lacey. It is very insightful on the issue of Saudi Politics.

Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 12):
I have also heard that the King has founded a university in a city close to the Red Sea, where both young men and women are educated together.

KAUST: King Abdullah University of Science and Technology.

Quoting n229nw (Reply 13):
And women in "the West" were treated that way legally until the last hundred years.

   Us in the west seem to forget that all too often.

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 18):
I said it before will say it again, it is not all perfect here but things are improving, not as fast as i love to see but it is improving.

  



Air New Zealand; first to fly the Boeing 787-9. ZK-NZE, NZ103 AKL-SYD, 2014/08/09. I was 83rd to board.
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7560 posts, RR: 18
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3841 times:

Quoting 777way (Thread starter):
Good going, there is a limit to being dictated it can really put one off religion.

I praise these brave women for standing up to oppression. It's absolutely horrible sometimes   

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 18):
Over 132,000 Saudi females were admitted in Higher education programs this year in Saudi universities, around 6000 females are traveling abroad each year to continue there university degrees.

At ASU, we attract a high number of foreign students from Saudi Arabia, and yet, here, the women who come here are treated the same way as they are back in Saudi Arabia, except by their male peers, instead of their government. I talked to one of them, and after she went away rather sheepishly, she was SLAPPED by this real jack-off of a guy (who later proved to be some huge trouble maker for me last school year,) and when I went to ASU about it, they BANNED me from partaking in tutoring ESL students at ASU. Obviously it's a huge issue, and I think women need to have some huge revolt in that country in order to get what they deserve as humans.



/rant



次は、渋谷、渋谷。出口は、右側です。電車とホームの間は広く開いておりますので、足元に注意下さい。
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 14026 posts, RR: 62
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3817 times:

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 20):
At ASU, we attract a high number of foreign students from Saudi Arabia, and yet, here, the women who come here are treated the same way as they are back in Saudi Arabia, except by their male peers, instead of their government. I talked to one of them, and after she went away rather sheepishly, she was SLAPPED by this real jack-off of a guy (who later proved to be some huge trouble maker for me last school year,) and when I went to ASU about it, they BANNED me from partaking in tutoring ESL students at ASU. Obviously it's a huge issue, and I think women need to have some huge revolt in that country in order to get what they deserve as humans.


Respect towards women (and girls)n should be taught in the families.
Years ago I´ve been doing some electrical installations in a large second hand furniture shop in Berlin owned by a Lebanese family. While I was working there for about a week I noticed that the oldest son (maybe 13 years old at this time) was acting very much like a spolied brat. He was overweight and was bossing his mother and sisters around in a way which would have earned me a good beating from my father should I have done so at home. The teenage girls (his sisters) on the other hand were quite nice as they were hardworking and obviously used to carry responsibility (like minding their younger siblings and helping in the household) since a young age.
Later in this district with a high number of immigrants, I often spotted the spoiled first sons, who were often bad mannered and egoistical, as opposed to their hardworking, humble and friendly sisters.
I think if you find yourself with a woman from such a family and treat her with the respect she deserves, you´ll find yourself with a woman for life.

Jan


User currently offlineMadameConcorde From San Marino, joined Feb 2007, 10895 posts, RR: 37
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3757 times:

What is the impact of Princess Ameerah Al Taweel regarding the improvement of women's rights in Saudi Arabia?

Of course she is a Prince and Billionaire's chosen wife so she will probably get a different treatment comparing to all other women not of the royal dynasties.

We never see her wearing the hijab/abhaya/niqab in public or at official ceremonies. She always keeps her beautiful hair down and wears make-up. She drives her own car. Maybe this is only because she is a Princess and not just any Saudi Princess?

There seems to be a double standard there. Some of them certainly go wild when they come here to spend their Summer on the French Riviera as it is so terribly hot down in Saudi Arabia. I hold the stories from hotel managers/executives in Cannes and Monte Carlo. Not talking about the goings on their private yachts - unless they cause outer disorder, excessive noise, or pollution, that is of totally private order and nobody's business.

 



There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
User currently offlineslider From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6814 posts, RR: 34
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 3717 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 11):
The head of the religious police responded by apologising to the woman and ordering an immediate investigation of the action of the person in question as he was acting out of the new guidance.

Reminds me of Captain Renault....round up TWICE the number of usual suspects.

yawn. All lip service.

Quoting n229nw (Reply 13):
These blanket statements about Islam are just ridiculous.

Did you read the link? Guess not. I can find tons of other articles, observations, and facts on the treatment of women in islamic countries. But for starters, you should start by reading Mona's article and not just close your mind.

Quoting zkojq (Reply 19):
Remind me again what year women in the US legally became separate from their husbands.

Erroneous. Just like the prior statement by someone else about the Bible. The point is that Western civilization HAS reformed. There is a self-admitted tacit understanding that gender rights are an important part of a free society. But there is still human trafficking and clitorectomies going on. That doesn't reconcile.

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 22):
What is the impact of Princess Ameerah Al Taweel regarding the improvement of women's rights in Saudi Arabia?

Why would she want to speak out? She has no motivation to do so.


User currently offline777way From Pakistan, joined Dec 2005, 5716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 months 2 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3667 times:

Quoting SOBHI51 (Reply 11):

Forgot to mention that

“The world is manufacturing airplanes and we are still telling a woman ‘leave the mall because you’ve got nail polish on your fingers’,” News24.com quoted Sheikh Abdullatiff Abdel Aziz al-Sheikh, head of the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and Prevention of Vice, as telling local daily Al-Watan.."

[Edited 2012-06-06 09:12:38]

25 Post contains images SOBHI51 : while you are sitting in front of your computer, judging on things you know nothing about, i am here in the same place that this event is occurring,
26 soon7x7 : If the middle eastern women unleash the power that I believe middle eastern men realize but are afraid of, but by virtue of religion, excuse the exist
27 slider : I know plenty about it. Nice strawman argument though. I suppose because I'm not black I can't speak about black issues either. Again, yawn. You do m
28 slider : SOBHI, Since I’m guessing you didn’t read the Foreign Policy article, I’ll excerpt a few components herein, about Saudi Arabia. Of course, the a
29 SOBHI51 : You are calling the changes as window dressing i am calling it an improvement, you will only feel it if you live with it day in and day out, you can
30 slider : Like female circumcisions? I disagree. If you don't change quicker, you may find yourself in a full blown revolution. Good luck dealing with that "te
31 Emirates773ER : You know as much as FOX news tells you. When was the last time you were in any Saudi city? Things are surely changing in Saudi. Last time I was there
32 slider : BWAHAHAA!!! Don't watch it one bit. Nice try though. Do you hear yourself? So being able to take a picture represents a quantum leap in individual ri
33 Emirates773ER : So what do you expect in 10 years? It takes time for a generation to let go. Did the US just wake up one day and pass laws to outlaw slavery? Of cour
34 aloges : Obviously, the answer is "an amount of change much larger than the one for which Barack Obama is vilified". Anyway, thanks for the info that I've gat
35 SOBHI51 : It is outlawed in Saudi. I am very happy that your are not in charge here. i am sure the king knows the pace needed to make those changes, we do not
36 slider : You know, I'll humbly apologize here (ignoring more of aloges' usual vitriol which never gets corrected here) and admit to being overcritical here. Y
37 Post contains images aloges : I do beg your pardon, but which "vitriol" are you referring to? All I did was thank a couple of members for their posts and point out the uselessness
38 Quokkas : Things are far from perfect in Saudi Arabia (and other parts of the region) and SOBHI51 has acknowledged that on many occasions in many threads so it
39 Post contains images WestJet747 : If I may: ------------------------- Without veering too off-topic, do you also dislike Christianity? Islam and Christianity both have very positive a
40 SOBHI51 : Because you are only looking for the negative aspects from your own point of view, i am sure even you can find some positive in Islam, or in your cas
41 KiwiRob : That's interesting and I applaud it, however it appears to me that things are going backwards pretty fast in Turkey, I was there 12 years ago and bar
42 slider : Again, your lengthy retort notwithstanding, my point wasn't that we have been slow to change, but that even when--even in the very midst of making mi
43 Quokkas : لقد ولدت في ليبيا Because I can see from your posts that you would like things to improve, I find it troublesome when others refuse to
44 SOBHI51 : Don't Christians emulate Jesus, or take him as an example, Ie turn the other cheek etc...
45 SOBHI51 : Thank you. I have lived a long time in Egypt, i was in a mix school, in the 70's girls were wearing miniskirts and the smallest bikini's available, t
46 L410Turbolet : I think you are confusing cause with consequence. How come other, reasonbly muslim countries in SE Asia in particular don't need a religious gestapo
47 Quokkas : So when you do it it is a mistake but when somebody else does it it is a glaring flaw. Interesting: mistake and basic flaw. But for a long time not t
48 Quokkas : Maybe you can explain why it was disappearing in so many countries before this reaction? Of course, given the history of the Catholic Church in defen
49 slider : Well said L410, although that's the kind of factual statement that's gotten me in hot water with mods before. And yes SOBHI, we should seek to emulat
50 KiwiRob : Since god is an imaginary entity no religion has a natural or god given sense of morals, any and all morals are purely man made.
51 Quokkas : So how do you account for the differences between different societies that profess Islam? How do you account for the different schools within Islam?
52 SOBHI51 : Was explained hundred of times, he never did have a relation with the girl till she became an adult, at the time getting your period was the sign, bu
53 Post contains images slider : You make a good point about the sectarian differences, which is a valid point. The critical distinction is that Jesus didn't say we should kill the n
54 Post contains links aloges : And I'm sure that, as a prophet of Islam, his words carry a lot of weight in that religion. As for killing non-believers, that does appear in the Bib
55 Post contains images SOBHI51 :
56 slider : Again, Jesus clearly overwrote that. It's called abrogation, and it exists in islam as well....the only problem is that the call to violence by their
57 aloges : As I was saying... If we're going by things that Jesus clearly overwrote, then surely things like the death penalty cannot be lawful in any Christian
58 SOBHI51 : The prophet tried to spread Islam by sending messengers to other rulers, The expansion of Islam via other methods started after his death.
59 Post contains links zkojq : The BBC and Al Jazeera are now reporting that Prince Nayef is dead. Prince Salman will likely be the next in line to the throne. http://www.bbc.co.uk
60 MD11Engineer : So what is Prince Salman´s position? Will he follow the King´s current (albeit) slow reforms or will he want to turn the wheel back? Jan[Edited 2012
61 SOBHI51 : He is much more open than the late Prince Nayef. His son was on one of NASA shuttles.
62 PHX787 : Do you think we'll see more reforms under him, or more of the same because of political pressure? Also- what's with the line of succession over there
63 MD11Engineer : The founder of Saudi Arabia, King Abdul Aziz bin Saud, fathered to many sons that the current crop of crown princes are still his original sons (all
64 SOBHI51 : Everybody here is hoping that this is what will happen. Still not confirmed who will be crown prince so let's wait and see.
65 MD11Engineer : Would he be able to curb the power of the Ulema (the council of Islamic clerics and scholars, traditionally under the leadership by somebody from the
66 PHX787 : What about that Vice and Virtue police? When will they finally go away?
67 Post contains links zkojq : In Saudi Arabia the line of succession moves horizontally rather than vertically (as it does in traditional European Monarchies) this (generally) mea
68 Quokkas : In the West the media tends to focus on negatives and we rarely get to hear about positives. In September last year the King announced in an assembly
69 tugger : That is the big question as it all depends on the king and what he decides to do and support and continue to push forward. And until yesterday, Princ
70 einsteinboricua : I knew Nayef would not become king and would die before Abdullah did. Now the question is whether Abdullah will select a younger heir to the throne (a
71 SOBHI51 : I am going to bite and ask how did you know that?
72 einsteinboricua : Wikileaks. The cables released mentioned that he was suspected of suffering from diabetes and cancer. Besides, picking a 77 year old man to become he
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