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TLV Security Now Checking Personal Email Accounts  
User currently offlinemcogator From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 183 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 4131 times:

Interesting new tactic by the security at TLV. Seems like they want to make it as difficult as possible for an Arab American to visit.

Original Article

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...te-email-accounts.premium-1.434509

No registration required article

http://www.businessweek.com/ap/2012-06/D9V70V280.htm


Fair use excerpt from Haaretz:


"The first part of the interrogation began with questions like: Do you feel more Arab or more American?" (to which the interrogator supplied her own answer:"Surely you must feel a little more Arab.") "Will you go to Al-Aqsa?" and "Why are you coming now for the third time? You can go to Venezuela, to Mexico, to Canada. It is much closer to New York, and much less expensive!"

Then, according to Doughman, her interrogator said, "Okay, we are going to do something very interesting now!" As Doughman describes it, the harsh stare on the security woman's face gave way to a slight smirk. She typed www.gmail.com on her computer, turned the keyboard torward Doughman and demanded that she log in to her personal account.

73 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinemagyar From Hungary, joined Feb 2000, 599 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 11 hours ago) and read 3933 times:

What can I say? Another day in "the only democracy of the ME".

User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5672 posts, RR: 10
Reply 2, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3685 times:

Pretty dumb if you ask me. At least if they are trying to actually catch anyone dangerous at the airport. Of course all they are really doing is fishing for information on other people (those is the emails and friends on FB) so they can further investigate those names.

And if you are wondering why I say it is dumb is they are actually trying to catch someone dangerous there, it is because anyone who is truly dangerous has hidden email accounts, alternates that they don't use or keep records of or save otherwise.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlinemcogator From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 3, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3556 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 2):
And if you are wondering why I say it is dumb is they are actually trying to catch someone dangerous there, it is because anyone who is truly dangerous has hidden email accounts, alternates that they don't use or keep records of or save otherwise.

It makes sense if these people were on some sort of a terrorist watch list, but they're not. They're on a Israeli political activist watch list, which is absolutely crazy to deny them entry, when they most likely do not pose a security threat. The Israeli's are just making it as hard as possible for Arab's to visit their native country, so in turn they will not visit anymore. This of course is just my opinion. Hopefully they won't stop Ron Paul supporters from visiting there in the future.


User currently offlineraffik From United Kingdom, joined Feb 2006, 1716 posts, RR: 4
Reply 4, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3406 times:

Terrible. It makes me wonder why anyone would endure these security measures in order to travel to Israel.
It sounds like thoroughly dreadful experience.



Happy -go- lucky kinda guy!
User currently offlinereadytotaxi From United Kingdom, joined Dec 2006, 3314 posts, RR: 2
Reply 5, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3329 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 2):
And if you are wondering why I say it is dumb is they are actually trying to catch someone dangerous there, it is because anyone who is truly dangerous has hidden email accounts, alternates that they don't use or keep records of or save otherwise.

Agree.   Sounds very low level.



you don't get a second chance to make a first impression!
User currently offlineLOWS From Austria, joined Oct 2011, 1166 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3079 times:

This is insanity. If that had happened to me, I would have asked to be put on the next flight back.

Quoting mcogator (Reply 3):
Hopefully they won't stop Ron Paul supporters from visiting there in the future.

Dear God, what does Ron Paul have to even remotely do with this situation?


User currently offlinecpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 37
Reply 7, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3059 times:

The devils advocate in me would say that it is their country, they are free to do that.

Of course, I have no intention to visit Israel since nothing about the country even remotely interests me, and a good friend of mine also got this style of rude and aggressive interrogation as well, but many years ago.

Israel with these measures will succeed in deterring the majority of people from visiting their country. They probably won't stop terrorism or the like, but the ordinary traveler will just think, I don't have to go through that - and will take their money elsewhere, perhaps Dubai or Abu Dhabi.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25737 posts, RR: 50
Reply 8, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3059 times:

Hey if employers require prospective new employees to turn over passwords to things like Facebook, why should a border control agency not be able to do it?

Anyhow I believe everyone accepts they can search through your bags, papers, laptop, phones already at a border control, so why not look at material of yours stored on a cloud server?



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1264 posts, RR: 1
Reply 9, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3030 times:

Crazy, I guess this is another reason not to visit.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 8):
Hey if employers require prospective new employees to turn over passwords to things like Facebook, why should a border control agency not be able to do it?

Ummm... because it is unethical and any actual security benefits it will provide seem rather dubious.



Air New Zealand; first to fly the Boeing 787-9. ZK-NZE, NZ103 AKL-SYD, 2014/08/09. I was 83rd to board.
User currently offlinecpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 37
Reply 10, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3028 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 8):

Maybe in the USA, but elsewhere that doesn't happen and any employer trying to do that is putting themselves on a unwritten blacklist that job seekers tend to have, especially in certain fields where most of the people tend to know each other very well. Word about 'bad' employers or recruiters gets around fast.

In my view, Israel is setting themselves up for a whole world of problems with this. And it doesn't really achieve anything useful other than alienating people who would otherwise bring money to the country.

Knowing what others have experienced means I will avoid travel to Israel or through it if possible. It's just not safe. And incidents like the following also don't engender confidence in the country:

http://m.smh.com.au/opinion/politics...inging-betrayal-20100302-pg9e.html

The average, ordinary traveler who is already wary about security is going to be scared off by interrogations like what is mentioned before and incidents like what was mentioned by SMH. But it won't deter the people Israel really should be deterring.

[Edited 2012-06-06 14:53:26]

User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5489 posts, RR: 14
Reply 11, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3005 times:

They have the right to control access to their country. Is what they're doing right? Not by my standards, but then again, I don't have just about every nation around me arrayed against me, politically & physically.

Is it effective? The looking at the email part is probably not very effective. The reaction that the security folks do get may provide some insight...and then again, it might not.

Their country, their rules, their loss of tourism (if they're actually losing tourism).

Quoting cpd (Reply 10):
Maybe in the USA, but elsewhere that doesn't happen and any employer trying to do that is putting themselves on a unwritten blacklist that job seekers tend to have, especially in certain fields where most of the people tend to know each other very well. Word about 'bad' employers or recruiters gets around fast.


That's a very interesting notion. I understand that there are bad employers and good employers. I understand that in a good economy, folks would tend to flock to the good employers (absent high compensation considerations), but in a bad economy, you go where the work is.

[Edited 2012-06-06 15:02:35]


When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineCadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1595 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 2993 times:

Quoting cpd (Reply 10):
Knowing what others have experienced means I will avoid travel to Israel or through it if possible. It's just not safe. And incidents like the following also don't engender confidence in the country:

Not trying to start a fight here, but you know what a few have experienced. How about all the people who go to Israel in a daily basis and have no issues? I've been there four times, and am probably going again later this year...always felt safe, never had any issues with security, of everyone I know who has been there, I know of nobody who has (and a LOT of people I know have been to Israel).

Marc


User currently offlinecpd From Australia, joined Jun 2008, 4879 posts, RR: 37
Reply 13, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2951 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 12):
Not trying to start a fight here

Well you have your views, I have mine - they diverge wildly, so I'll refrain from any further comments to avoid it escalating.  Smile
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 11):

That's a very interesting notion.

Yeah, it is interesting. But it probably occurs because the economy here isn't so bad and in certain fields of employment, the candidates all seem to be members of professional associations (not unions as such) and they all network a hell of a lot. So word of bad experiences (unrelated to pay) gets around very quickly. Employers just discover that they don't get many replies to their job adverts, or they just don't find suitable candidates responding.

That's the power that young professionals have now - they know there is demand out their for their skills, so they are able to do this.

[Edited 2012-06-06 16:34:53]

[Edited 2012-06-06 16:35:56]

User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7931 posts, RR: 52
Reply 14, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2951 times:

Quoting cpd (Reply 10):
The average, ordinary traveler who is already wary about security is going to be scared off by interrogations like what is mentioned before and incidents like what was mentioned by SMH. But it won't deter the people Israel really should be deterring.

I think it's just hype. I've been to a lot of countries and actually, Israel had some of the quickest and easiest security I've seen. Then again, I don't think I'm the kind of person they'd profile for



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2630 posts, RR: 23
Reply 15, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 2908 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 14):
I think it's just hype. I've been to a lot of countries and actually, Israel had some of the quickest and easiest security I've seen.
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 11):
Their country, their rules

  

Yeah, hyperbole.
BTW can you imagine what security is like at Damascus about now.



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19927 posts, RR: 59
Reply 16, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2886 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 14):
I think it's just hype. I've been to a lot of countries and actually, Israel had some of the quickest and easiest security I've seen.

You're a white kid with a non-descript name from America. Of course you breezed through. If your name was Omar Saleh, I guarantee it wouldn't have been so easy.

The bit that bothers me is that, from the description, the behavior of the border agent was sadistic, and if not that, then certainly unprofessional.


User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13138 posts, RR: 15
Reply 17, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 2883 times:

The basic intent by Israel is to intimidate and keep out anyone that does not agree with their political and territorial policies as well as keep out anyone who might encourage wars, terror acts or any act of defense in the occupied territories. Of course, these attempts will be futile, they can be easily gone around, it will mean more 'Arabs' traveling through Jordan to get to the territories. You can't halt all e-mails or text messages, you can use coded messages, people can be taught to give the right answers and get past the tough ones. Don't forget not all Arabs are Muslims, small percentages are Christians as well as Jewish and could get by these extreme methods.

User currently offlinemcogator From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2802 times:

Quoting LOWS (Reply 6):

Dear God, what does Ron Paul have to even remotely do with this situation?

Ron Paul was known as being Anti-Israel prior to his recent election run, just do a Youtube search. Israel takes the extra step, so why stop at middle aged Arab-American women?

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 17):
Don't forget not all Arabs are Muslims, small percentages are Christians as well as Jewish and could get by these extreme methods.

But it's not just the Muslims who are being pulled aside by the Israeli's. The Christian Palestinians are treated poorly as well by the Israeli's and do have trouble visiting, or returning home.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/features...y-claiming-we-are-welcome-1.420718


User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2889 posts, RR: 8
Reply 19, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2780 times:

Quoting mcogator (Thread starter):
Seems like they want to make it as difficult as possible for an Arab American to visit.

They should learn not to bite the hand that feeds them.

Quoting raffik (Reply 4):
Terrible. It makes me wonder why anyone would endure these security measures in order to travel to Israel.
It sounds like thoroughly dreadful experience.

That's an understatement

Quoting cpd (Reply 7):
and a good friend of mine also got this style of rude and aggressive interrogation as well

Yes, this is what I have heard from people who have traveled there too, they wont do it again as they were made to feel guilty for NO reason.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 8):
so why not look at material of yours stored on a cloud server?

For the one simple reason, its private !

Quoting cpd (Reply 10):
The average, ordinary traveler who is already wary about security is going to be scared off by interrogations like what is mentioned before and incidents like what was mentioned by SMH. But it won't deter the people Israel really should be deterring.

   Absolutely

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 11):
I don't have just about every nation around me arrayed against me, politically & physically.

This will not help change that will it ?

Buy them a shovel, because the hole they are digging is going to be very deep with this.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 12):
I've been there four times, and am probably going again later this year...always felt safe, never had any issues with security, of everyone I know who has been there, I know of nobody who has (and a LOT of people I know have been to Israel).

Well I will take a guess at why you had no problems, and its because you are probably Jewish, and have family there. ?

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 15):
Yeah, hyperbole.

Really ? With the reputation that Israeli security has, I wouldn't call it Hyperbole at all. Fact, is a word that comes to mind.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 15):
BTW can you imagine what security is like at Damascus about now.

Whats that got to do with the price of fish ?

Quoting mcogator (Reply 18):
The Christian Palestinians are treated poorly as well by the Israeli's and do have trouble visiting, or returning home.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/features...20718

And until Israel is pulled into line by the rest of the world, then unfortunately, this will continue to happen.  



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineSFBdude From United States of America, joined Apr 2011, 129 posts, RR: 0
Reply 20, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 2767 times:

I went twice during high school back in 99/2000. Never went back since. Most of my family live there and as much as I'd love to visit them and the country in general, it just isn't worth the vacation time or money imo. The airport experience and the actual trip itself was definitely nothing I'd want to go through again. There is nothing hyped up about that either.

User currently offlineCadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1595 posts, RR: 4
Reply 21, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 2742 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 19):
Well I will take a guess at why you had no problems, and its because you are probably Jewish, and have family there. ?

Yes, I happen to be Jewish. It does not say so on my passport, and I do not advertise my religion, so how would they know whether I'm Jewish, Christian, etc.? In fact, the only place I even wear some religious garb is at the Western Wall.

No, I have no family there...just a friend who is like a brother to me.

Marc


User currently offlinezrs70 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 3180 posts, RR: 9
Reply 22, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 2732 times:

Quoting cpd (Reply 7):
They probably won't stop terrorism or the like

Well, Israeli security has a proven record of being very effective in stopping terrorism. Doesn't mean that terrorism doesn't happen. But security measures have done incredibly at making things much safer.

I feel safer in Israel than I do anywhere else in the world.

And the TSA could learn something from Israeli security. In Israel, they are trained to search for terrorists. In the US, they are trained to look for weapons.



14 year airliners.net vet! 2000-2013
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2889 posts, RR: 8
Reply 23, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 2 days ago) and read 2716 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 21):
Yes, I happen to be Jewish. It does not say so on my passport, and I do not advertise my religion, so how would they know whether I'm Jewish, Christian, etc.? In fact, the only place I even wear some religious garb is at the Western Wall.

Having never been to Israel, I'm not exactly sure of the entry requirements are, but do you have to declare your religion on entry documents or when applying for a visa ?

If so, then there's your answer.

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 22):
Well, Israeli security has a proven record of being very effective in stopping terrorism. Doesn't mean that terrorism doesn't happen.

Um, isn't that a contradiction, I mean, it either has stopped terrorism or it hasn't ?

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 22):
I feel safer in Israel than I do anywhere else in the world.

Ever lived in Australia ?

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 22):
And the TSA could learn something from Israeli security. In Israel, they are trained to search for terrorists. In the US, they are trained to look for weapons.

I doubt that very much.
But I would imagine that the American constitution and peoples "civil" rights/liberty's, would play havoc with that !

[Edited 2012-06-06 23:07:01]


Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3385 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2701 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 8):
Hey if employers require prospective new employees to turn over passwords to things like Facebook, why should a border control agency not be able to do it?

If one did that to me, I would ask why to try and get a reason. If I thought the reason was just I would show them the profile inside and out with them present. If they gave me no reason I would leave, but I am not desperate.

They can fish for my profile all they like but they aren't getting the password, most people wouldn't give the password to their partners if requested.

Quoting mcogator (Reply 18):
Ron Paul was known as being Anti-Israel prior to his recent election run, just do a Youtube search. Israel takes the extra step, so why stop at middle aged Arab-American women?

He isn't anti-Israel he just wants the US to stop bankrolling them.

Quoting raffik (Reply 4):
Terrible. It makes me wonder why anyone would endure these security measures in order to travel to Israel.
It sounds like thoroughly dreadful experience.

It supposed to be the best and their methods are not that intrusive and they look at your behaviour more so that what is in your shoes.

If this happened to me I would show them because they can gladly go through 7000 e-mails all they want.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 11):
That's a very interesting notion. I understand that there are bad employers and good employers. I understand that in a good economy, folks would tend to flock to the good employers (absent high compensation considerations), but in a bad economy, you go where the work is.

Yeah but do a lot of companies really need to look at your facebook profile, much less get your password to look at the apps you have and your personal messages that could be dirty talk with your partner.

Why is that relevant.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 23):
Having never having been to Israel, I'm not exactly sure of the entry requirements are, but do you have to declare your religion on entry documents or when applying for a visa ?

As an Aussie I don't think you need a visa at all.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlinemad99 From Spain, joined Mar 2012, 594 posts, RR: 0
Reply 25, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 2763 times:

Security at tlv is more thorough than most airports but only when leaving! Arrival is no different to any other airport (unless you fly on EL-AL, they screen you before you get on the plane).

I have entry stamps from non- friendly Arab countries and i answer 'yes' to more then one security question, so i get checked out every single time.

I've never been asked to open my pc but once they said i had to check in my pc or leave it in Israel. They packed it in a box and checked it in for me.

If you lie and they catch you the red flag goes up and you will have problems, If the woman in the link did or said something that they wanted to verify and she refused so they sent her home.


User currently offlinefalstaff From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 6123 posts, RR: 29
Reply 26, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2632 times:
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Quoting LAXintl (Reply 8):
Hey if employers require prospective new employees to turn over passwords to things like Facebook

That is illegal in Michigan now.



My mug slaketh over on Falstaff N503
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5489 posts, RR: 14
Reply 27, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2667 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 19):
Yes, this is what I have heard from people who have traveled there too, they wont do it again as they were made to feel guilty for NO reason.


The only person that can make you 'feel guilty' is yourself. No amount of questioning should make you feel guilty. Remember, the questioning itself, more than the questions, are designed to illicit a reaction for the passenger. It is the reaction that is screened.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 19):
This will not help change that will it ?

Buy them a shovel, because the hole they are digging is going to be very deep with this.


And, that is up to them, isn't it? Is tourism up or down in Israel?

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 23):
But I would imagine that the American constitution and peoples "civil" rights/liberty's, would play havoc with that !


Interesting. As far as I know, there is no constitutional right to travel by air. Even though it is the TSA (government) that would institute such a rule, the citizen still has other options (drive, rail, sail, walk) to his destination. So, the additional screening would constitute an inconvenience and not a restriction. Question is, would the inconvenience be reasonable? Again, interesting.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 24):
Yeah but do a lot of companies really need to look at your facebook profile, much less get your password to look at the apps you have and your personal messages that could be dirty talk with your partner.


Didn't say I thought it was right. I can bluster all I want against it right now, but if I'm unemployed, and have been for a while...who is to say whether I would pony up the information?



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2439 posts, RR: 14
Reply 28, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2646 times:

A note to the security personnel at TLV:

- If I don't type the password and don't let you access my private mail, you think I could be a terrorist, but in reality, I'm an educated citizen from a civilized country.

- If I willingly let you snuff through my private mail, I have nothing to hide. I will prepare my entry into your country by any means possible, i.e. inventing a fake itinerary and purging incriminatory information from Facebook and my e-mail account. I may very well be a terrorist.

Thank you for your attention.



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineEL-AL From Israel, joined Oct 2001, 1313 posts, RR: 13
Reply 29, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2643 times:

Yesterday alone 140 people killed in Syria, most of them women and children.

The Syrian border is 93 km (58 mi) from TLV airport.

No doubt you guys focus on the true acts of atrocity in the middle east.



"In Israel, on order to be a realist, one's must believe in miracles" - David Ben Gurion.
User currently offlinemcogator From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 30, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2621 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 21):
Yes, I happen to be Jewish. It does not say so on my passport, and I do not advertise my religion, so how would they know whether I'm Jewish, Christian, etc.? In fact, the only place I even wear some religious garb is at the Western Wall.

The security in Israel goes directly by your looks and name first.

Quoting mad99 (Reply 25):
If you lie and they catch you the red flag goes up and you will have problems, If the woman in the link did or said something that they wanted to verify and she refused so they sent her home.

She wasn't the only one who was sent back. It says there are three other known cases. I'm sure there are plenty more. Just look at all the people who were scheduled to "fly in" and were denied entry because they were Palestinian sympathizers/activists.

Quoting ImperialEagle (Reply 15):
BTW can you imagine what security is like at Damascus about now.

Bashar Assad is Israel's best friend now. Israel can just deflect everything towards him. It's odd how much media play time it's receiving compared to Israel's transgressions in the past.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 11):
Their country, their rules, their loss of tourism (if they're actually losing tourism).

But it's not only their country.

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 24):
He isn't anti-Israel he just wants the US to stop bankrolling them.

Of course he isn't anti-Israel, it's just what he is portrayed as in Israel. Hence the "known" as.

Israel creates PAC to attack Ron Pal

http://youtu.be/R6wzm7IQmg0


User currently offlinemcogator From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 31, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2610 times:

Quoting EL-AL (Reply 29):
Yesterday alone 140 people killed in Syria, most of them women and children.

The Syrian border is 93 km (58 mi) from TLV airport.

No doubt you guys focus on the true acts of atrocity in the middle east.

Yes, deflection. Lets forget about the 64 years of atrocities being committed in Israel. Bashar Assad might win an election in Israel right now.


User currently offlineCadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1595 posts, RR: 4
Reply 32, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 2603 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 23):
Having never been to Israel, I'm not exactly sure of the entry requirements are, but do you have to declare your religion on entry documents or when applying for a visa ?

I'm not sure about the entry requirements from Australia, but for me (or any other American...not sure about other countries) to go there, you buy a ticket, get on a plane, and get a free 3 month tourist visa when you arrive at TLV.

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 22):
I feel safer in Israel than I do anywhere else in the world.

And the TSA could learn something from Israeli security. In Israel, they are trained to search for terrorists. In the US, they are trained to look for weapons.

And security on the Israeli side is much faster. I've never spent more then ten minutes waiting in line...I don't have to take my shoes off, and the people working security actually care about their jobs, unlike the joke that is the TSA. And when I talk about waiting in line, I've been at TLV when there were 3 or 4 fully loaded 747's or 777's leaving within an hour of eachother, so it's not like I was at the airport at a dead time.

Marc


User currently offlinejetblueguy22 From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 2807 posts, RR: 4
Reply 33, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2563 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW
HEAD MODERATOR

I read the article/blog the woman wrote while browsing the other day and it kind of shocked me. I have always wanted to visit Israel but this really makes me think twice about it. I am a white kid with and Irish name so I doubt I would have a problem but that doesn't matter to me. It is so wrong to profile people by how they look. It doesn't make them a terrorist. Whether she had something questionable in her past I have no idea. It doesn't make it right though. I understand security is a big deal in Israel but that is just wrong on so many levels.
Blue



All of the opinions stated above are mine and do not represent Airliners.net or my employer unless otherwise stated.
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5489 posts, RR: 14
Reply 34, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2529 times:

Quoting mcogator (Reply 30):
But it's not only their country.

That's another argument. Their name is on the lease, they own security, they get to make the rules.

If the rules are have the effect of discouraging some people from entering Israel, that is apparently a result they are willing to accept.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlinedaviation From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 35, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2514 times:

Wow, this is an interesting discussion. This is really where all the hidden political agendas suddenly become unhidden.

Israel's tourism is way up, so I don't think the majority of people are bothered by additional security. In fact, they may feel safer. Israel's ethnic profiling has foiled many acts of terrorism. And as for denying entry into the country, yeah, it certainly lessens the chance of being blown up in a nightclub like so many were in the past.

Mr. Mco - no one is deflecting issues. The facts speak for themselves. Saddam Hussein and the Assads have thought nothing of destroying their own people. In Israel, there are Arabs who serve in the Parliament, who have free public health (go to Hadassah Hospital yourself, and you can see that most of the patients are Arabs!).

The U.S. does not bankroll Israel. They provide military aid which promptly returns back to U.S. in the form of sales. The U.S. spends much more on protecting South Korea, $2-billion on Egypt, supports NATO monetarily and militarily, which lets most European nations cut their own military costs.

Has Israel made mistakes? You bet they have! But that's not the discussion here. A few posters seems intent on shoving their political agendas into a discussion of tight security.

So there it is. You might want to examine why you have such animosity toward Israel. Because of the settlements? There were no settlements in 1967, and there was no lack of hatred then either. If you don't want to visit Israel, don't! I personally find it to be one of the most fascinating countries I've ever visited. And the number of visitors continues to increase.


User currently offlinemcogator From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 36, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2451 times:

Quoting jetblueguy22 (Reply 33):
. It is so wrong to profile people by how they look.

They are profiled mostly by name, since both sides tend to look alike, except for the European Ashkenazim.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 34):
That's another argument. Their name is on the lease, they own security, they get to make the rules.

Yes, the lease. If you consider land taken illegally by force a lease, that's another argument as well.

Quoting daviation (Reply 35):
The facts speak for themselves. Saddam Hussein and the Assads have thought nothing of destroying their own people

Unfortunately for both they are not considered their own people. The Alawites differ from the Sunni's, and the Kurds in the north of Iraq are not Arabs. It is similar to Ashkenazim making sure they don't mix their blood with Sephardim and Mizrahim, and their kids do not go to school together.

Quoting daviation (Reply 35):
The U.S. does not bankroll Israel. They provide military aid which promptly returns back to U.S. in the form of sales.

The US gives military aid to Israel in the form of US arm sales which are then forgiven. It's a tricky tactic.

"Indeed, all past U.S. loans to Israel have eventually been forgiven by Congress, which has undoubtedly helped Israel's often-touted claim that they have never defaulted on a U.S. government loan."

http://www.wrmea.org/special-topics/9748-us-aid-to-israel.html

Quoting daviation (Reply 35):
You might want to examine why you have such animosity toward Israel. Because of the settlements? There were no settlements in 1967, and there was no lack of hatred then either.

Prior to '67
1. Acquisition of land by force
2. Forbidding right of return
3. Collective punishment
4. Practice of Apartheid
5. Illegal occupation

[Edited 2012-06-07 11:58:47]

User currently offlinemcogator From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 183 posts, RR: 0
Reply 37, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2447 times:

Here is a "unbiased" report on U.S. aid to Israel.

http://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/mideast/RL33222.pdf


"Israel is the largest cumulative recipient of U.S. foreign assistance since World War II. To date,
the United States has provided Israel $115 billion in bilateral assistance. Almost all U.S. bilateral
aid to Israel is in the form of military assistance, although in the past Israel also received
significant economic assistance. Strong congressional support for Israel has resulted in Israel
receiving benefits not available to any other countries; for example, Israel can use some U.S.
military assistance both for research and development in the United States and for military
purchases from Israeli manufacturers. In addition, all U.S. assistance earmarked for Israel is
delivered in the first 30 days of the fiscal year, while most other recipients normally receive aid in
installments. In addition to receiving U.S. State Department-administered foreign assistance,
Israel also receives funds from annual defense appropriations bills for joint U.S.-Israeli missile
defense programs."


User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2439 posts, RR: 14
Reply 38, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2418 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 34):
That's another argument. Their name is on the lease, they own security, they get to make the rules.

If the rules are have the effect of discouraging some people from entering Israel, that is apparently a result they are willing to accept.

In German, we have two words, "recht" und "richtig". Something can be lawfully right, or something can be morally right. By asking travellers to allow access to their e-mail accounts certainly isn't right referring to the latter term. And I have doubts about its intended effectiveness. It rather serves to intimidate people, and to suppress civil rights both in Israel and abroad.

When I communicate with a human rights organization about something, it may turn up in my mailbox. Even when writing from Switzerland. And just for the case I have to travel to TLV one day, should I refrain from using my civil rights and stop supporting that organization?

Certainly not.

But this argument is almost moot because I have little interest in visiting that country during the current times.



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5489 posts, RR: 14
Reply 39, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2393 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 38):
When I communicate with a human rights organization about something, it may turn up in my mailbox. Even when writing from Switzerland. And just for the case I have to travel to TLV one day, should I refrain from using my civil rights and stop supporting that organization?


Again, it's their right (and the right of any sovereign nation) to deny entry based on whatever criteria they want. They want to exclude you because you've communicated with some agency, more power to them. They lose your money, but they feel they may also be losing some trouble. Their call.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 38):
In German, we have two words, "recht" und "richtig". Something can be lawfully right, or something can be morally right.


I never said they are morally right in doing what they are doing, but they are certainly within their rights as a nation.

A question for those in the know: can an Israeli citizen travel to an Islamic state, such as Saudi Arabia or Syria or Iran, etc.? How about a Jew?



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2439 posts, RR: 14
Reply 40, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2368 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 39):
Again, it's their right

It is, but still worthy of criticism. 
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 39):
A question for those in the know: can an Israeli citizen travel to an Islamic state, such as Saudi Arabia or Syria or Iran, etc.? How about a Jew?

They can, if they have double citizenship (e.g. U.S. and Israeli). But they can't travel on their Israeli passport, though. Also, many countries don't stamp passports in order not to make troubles for the traveler if he or she visits an "enemy" country later.



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlinedaviation From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 41, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 2338 times:

Well, MCOGATOR, you've certainly made your agenda clear! And there is nothing I can say that will change your misguided opinion.

Acquisition of land by force, for example: in 1967, did the Israelis wake up and say, 'gee, why don't we attack and occupy Arab lands today?' No, they were desperate to avoid a war with Nasser and the other armies who saw the chance to finally wipe out the jews. Levi Eshkol himself said that Gaza would be a bone stuck in Israel's throat. Subsequent governments wanted to give back that land under the terms of a peace treaty. As you well know, the Arabs decided in Khartoum in 1968 that there would be no negotiations, no recognition, no peace.

But you've made your opinions clear enough.

Some of your facts are just as ridiculous: the mixing of Ashkenazi and Sephardi blood? You've got to be kidding. This is probably the most common marriage in Israel.

You seem to know enough about the political landscape to parse your 'facts' accordingly; they appear to be reasonable, but they are at the core racist and hateful. I'm ashamed to be on the same blog as you.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25737 posts, RR: 50
Reply 42, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2313 times:

This discussion should have nothing to do with what might have occured in 1967, or issues like about Arabs living in Israel.


Instead the concept is a very simple one -- and one that has been in existance going back to the middle ages.


Simply put - when one presents themselves to a border crossing, one is subject to review. Crossing a border is not a right, but a privellage, and the authorites can tax, search or place whatever restrictions they deem suitable on such crossings.


In todays electronic world, the review of cell phones, laptops can be routine, so like I said prior looking through cloud based storage such as emails is not much different then in the past rifling through your personal papers, or journals. Its simply an extension of such search as technology has evolved whereby we rely on electronic media over physical matter.


Anyhow, for those that have issues, please don't travel to Israel, the US, or any other nation you might feel exceeds your personal comfort zone.
On a broader scale I'm not sure how "private" things like email are anyhow. Personally I view anything committed to digital form is subject to access or review whether its my government, employer, colleagues, or spouse.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineEmirates773ER From Pakistan, joined Jun 2005, 1450 posts, RR: 9
Reply 43, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 2319 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 16):
You're a white kid with a non-descript name from America. Of course you breezed through. If your name was Omar Saleh, I guarantee it wouldn't have been so easy.
Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 12):
How about all the people who go to Israel in a daily basis and have no issues?

Try being a brown guy in his late twenties and a muslim. I was held for 13 hours under the pretense of interrogation and asked some of the most ridiculous questions that can come to mind.

'Why did your grand father migrate from India to Pakistan in 1948'?

'Why do you not keep a beard'?

'Call your parents on their cell phones to verify your identity'

'Would you fight if a call to Jihad was made'?

'If Pakistan attacked Canada whose army would you join'?

After the lengthy interview/interrogation I was given a 7 day visa and indirectly told to think twice before coming back to Israel.



The Truth is Out There ---- Face It!!!!!
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5489 posts, RR: 14
Reply 44, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2282 times:

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 43):
After the lengthy interview/interrogation I was given a 7 day visa and indirectly told to think twice before coming back to Israel.


So, don't go back.

They can do what they want.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 42):
In todays electronic world, the review of cell phones, laptops can be routine, so like I said prior looking through cloud based storage such as emails is not much different then in the past rifling through your personal papers, or journals. Its simply an extension of such search as technology has evolved whereby we rely on electronic media over physical matter.


Heck, this is the modern version of searching your luggage.

It may not be morally correct, but it is well within their rights. Or, if you're an Israeli living under the threat of missiles, bombings, shooting, kidnappings, etc, you may think that this is perfectly moral and correct.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2439 posts, RR: 14
Reply 45, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 7 hours ago) and read 2272 times:

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 43):

       
A demeaning and dishonoring experience.



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3654 posts, RR: 5
Reply 46, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2245 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 42):
Personally I view anything committed to digital form is subject to access or review whether its my government, employer, colleagues, or spouse

An email is like the old-style paper mail. People can of course read it without your permission but that doesn't make it right. I am not sure if it is even legal to open mail not directed to you that may contain private information.

My bank account statements are in digital form online. So are parts of my medical records. But I don't understand why you focus on the "digital" part? So, you wouldn't mind if your boss was reading your personal emails? How about if he came to your house, opened the letterbox and started going through your letters, bills, bank statements? Is that OK with you?

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 44):
Heck, this is the modern version of searching your luggage.

They can search your luggage and things and they can check if your briefcase contains papers or contraband. What they cannot do is read through your papers, there is such thing as confidentiality. I do not think that I would let anyone near my work laptop, it contains sensitive information and I would be in a lot of trouble, even from a legal standpoint, if anyone was snooping around my clients' files and communications. Also, private conversations cannot be obtained and used without a warrant, at least in countries that consider themselves democratic.


User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2889 posts, RR: 8
Reply 47, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2242 times:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 24):
As an Aussie I don't think you need a visa at all.

Ok, But when applying for a visa (for those that are required to do so) must you declare what religion you are ?

And are you asked this upon entering Israel ?

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 32):
I'm not sure about the entry requirements from Australia, but for me (or any other American...not sure about other countries) to go there, you buy a ticket, get on a plane, and get a free 3 month tourist visa when you arrive at TLV.

See question above

Quoting daviation (Reply 35):
The facts speak for themselves.

They should, but very often for political purposes, get blurred somewhat.

Here are some facts I found that certainty refute what you say about Arabs in Isarel

Comparing Palestinian Israelis to Jewish Israelis

Of course, all the outcomes just described coexist with extraordinary privilege and wealth in Israel, which is an OECD country. How do outcomes for the Palestinian subgroup compare to outcomes for Jews? I highlight just a few:

Palestinian Israelis are live on just 7% of the land with high population densities due to de jure discrimination among land authorities in Israel.
55% of families below the poverty line in Israel are Palestinian Arab.
Average Arab salaries are 30% lower than Jewish ones, according to the Central Bank of Israel.
Average per-student allocation at Arab schools is 1/5 the Jewish average, according to Israel’s Follow-Up Committee for Arab Education.
Despite poor health outcomes, Israel’s health ministry allocated Arab communities in 2002 less than 0.6% of its 277 million shekel) budget to develop healthcare facilities in Arab localities.
Of the 55,000 people working in government companies, one percent are Arab.
From 1952 to 1972, proportion of total government budget allocated to Arab sector ranged from 0.2 to 1.5%. Rose to 4% in 2008.
Since 1948, approximately 600 new Jewish municipalities, but not one Arab one has ever

From the web site

http://www.hybridstates.com/

So you see, when you read that, it appears that your assertions aren't quiet accurate about how Arabs are treated in Israel, does it now ?

Quoting daviation (Reply 35):
The U.S. does not bankroll Israel.

Again, you assert that the US dose not bank roll Israel....?

From what I can gather, the US has funded Israel, since 1948, with a combined total $$$ package in excess of US$49 billion. Not bad if you can get it !!

But please read this article

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/cost_of_israel.html
And
http://www.ifamericaknew.org/stats/usaid.html

Quoting daviation (Reply 35):
The U.S. spends much more on protecting South Korea, $2-billion on Egypt, supports NATO monetarily and militarily, which lets most European nations cut their own military costs.

Not sure about that, at least according to reports I have read, (like the one above) Americans are funding Israel, and at a much larger rate than what you think !

Quoting daviation (Reply 41):
But you've made your opinions clear enough.

As you have. Remember there are always 2 sides to any given story.  



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineCadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1595 posts, RR: 4
Reply 48, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2246 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 44):
It may not be morally correct, but it is well within their rights. Or, if you're an Israeli living under the threat of missiles, bombings, shooting, kidnappings, etc, you may think that this is perfectly moral and correct.

Here in America, we go to malls, park our cars and just walk in. In Israel, cars get checked and a brief chit chat with the driver before entering the premises, and then before entering, every person goes through metal detectors. Some in America would find this invasive, but it is done in Israel, and they don't complain.

Marc


User currently offlinedaviation From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 49, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2234 times:

Commodore, you know you can spin statistics anyway you'd like. In Israel, there are substrata of Jews (from Arab countries, from Africa) who are also below the poverty line. So being below the poverty line isn't restricted to or aimed at Arabs.

Right here in the U.S., blacks, Latinos, Native Americans are groups that are living below the poverty line. Is that out and out discrimination? In some cases, yes, but there is no official policy of discriminating against these groups.

During my visits to Israel, I saw remarkable towns (mostly in the north) made up solely of Arabs (you could tell by the minerets). These were all quite lovely. In Haifa, there is a very peaceful coexistence between Arabs and Jews.

So use your stats any way you want. You have already chosen your point of view; now you are parsing stats to back up your agenda. Have you ever been to Israel, by the way? I became ill there on my last visit, went to Hadassah Hospital, and waited for my place in the long line of Arabs receiving free medical care. They didn't wave me on because I'm a white American.

If the Israelis are rightfully terrified of more attacks in airports or nightclubs, it is within their right to examine anything they want. It isn't easy getting into the U.S. either.

And by the way, 27000 U.S. troops in the Korean DMZ cost annually what the U.S. has paid to Israel in its entire history.


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25737 posts, RR: 50
Reply 50, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2215 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 46):
So, you wouldn't mind if your boss was reading your personal emails?

Using company computer, or email system, I don't expect to have privacy. I know it can, and is monitored.

Quoting lewis (Reply 46):
How about if he came to your house, opened the letterbox and started going through your letters, bills, bank statements? Is that OK with you?

Crossing a border is not having your boss come to your house.

Crossing a border is a voluntary thing, you as a person are doing it by choice, and are subjecting yourself to inspection.

Quoting lewis (Reply 46):
What they cannot do is read through your papers, there is such thing as confidentiality

Sure they can. Any contents on your person have always been subject to review. You've never seen them rip things open, riffle though items?

Quoting lewis (Reply 46):
I do not think that I would let anyone near my work laptop, it contains sensitive information and I would be in a lot of trouble, even from a legal standpoint, if anyone was snooping around my clients' files and communications. Also, private conversations cannot be obtained and used without a warrant, at least in countries that consider themselves democratic.

I don't know about Israel, however in the US they can read your laptop - they either actually download the entire contents, or take it away and give you a receipt.

A few years back there were a few court cases about it. Essentially it was found that border agents may conduct warrantless searches and seizures of laptops without probable cause, and that regular 4th Amendment probable cause rules do not apply at the border. (you have yet to be admitted to the country to use such rights)
US Customs - Laptop & USB Drive Searches... He (by AA7295 Jul 19 2008 in Aviation Polls)

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 47):
Ok, But when applying for a visa (for those that are required to do so) must you declare what religion you are ?

No they don't ask.
Here is the Visa application. Closest it comes it place of birth, and nationality.

http://www.mfa.gov.il/NR/rdonlyres/4...-9DE1-A93922EB0860/0/EntryVisa.pdf



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5489 posts, RR: 14
Reply 51, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2212 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 48):

Here in America, we go to malls, park our cars and just walk in. In Israel, cars get checked and a brief chit chat with the driver before entering the premises, and then before entering, every person goes through metal detectors. Some in America would find this invasive, but it is done in Israel, and they don't complain.

Security, or a feeling of security, is relative. Let's see what happens if a suicide bomber (or 2 or 3) blows himself up in a suburban mall.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlinemandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6919 posts, RR: 76
Reply 52, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2207 times:

Quoting Emirates773ER (Reply 43):
After the lengthy interview/interrogation I was given a 7 day visa and indirectly told to think twice before coming back to Israel.
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 44):
So, don't go back.

Actually, I'd keep coming back just for the fun of it !   

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 48):
Here in America, we go to malls, park our cars and just walk in. In Israel, cars get checked and a brief chit chat with the driver before entering the premises, and then before entering, every person goes through metal detectors. Some in America would find this invasive, but it is done in Israel, and they don't complain.

Yeaps. The world isn't like America... I get my car checked and go through metal detector and bags go through x-rays whenever I go into malls, hotels and offices. My country isn't Israel though... *gasp shock horror*

Mandala499



When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3654 posts, RR: 5
Reply 53, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2162 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 50):
Using company computer, or email system, I don't expect to have privacy. I know it can, and is monitored.

Didn't specify company computer or not, you said everything in digital form is subject to access or review by the government, employer or spouse. My gmail account which I may never have accessed from a company computer is in no way subject to access or review (legally) by anyone unless I give permission. Same goes for my physical exam results or my bank account statements that are in digital form.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 50):

Sure they can. Any contents on your person have always been subject to review. You've never seen them rip things open, riffle though items?

Usually to spot contraband or check for obvious things that do not need a thorough read through my documents (pornography, child pornography and something related to illegal activity). I am in no way a legal expert on this but I have never been subject to such searches in any country I have entered and I am assuming there is a reason why most countries refrain from doing that without a good reason.

Also, the contents of my inbox are not on my person in any way. They are just a bunch of 1s and 0s stored in a server somewhere far far away from my person. If I were asked to log in to Gmail or whatever, my answer would simply be "I do not have a Gmail or _______ account". End of story.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 50):
Crossing a border is a voluntary thing, you as a person are doing it by choice, and are subjecting yourself to inspection.

Very true, that is why I deliberately avoid any places that would require me to give that much information to enter.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 50):
I don't know about Israel, however in the US they can read your laptop - they either actually download the entire contents, or take it away and give you a receipt.

I am actually very curious about this so I just sent an email to my company's risk management department who deals with confidentiality breaches for client data and files. Curious to see what they say about it.


User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 54, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2139 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 19):
For the one simple reason, its private !

The actions by Israeli officials in requesting to see the contents of a gmail account is little different to the rights of Australian officials to do inspect computers at an Australian port of arrival. Indeed, some people have been arrested and charged with offences related to child pornography as a result of such inspections. When travelling to another country people need to be aware that the laws that applied in their country of origin are largely irrelevant. On entering another country you are subjecting yourself to their laws, whether you like them or not.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 42):
Personally I view anything committed to digital form is subject to access or review whether its my government, employer, colleagues, or spouse.

Why? The fact that information is digitally stored does not make it less private than if you scribble on a bit of paper. If you send a letter through the post do you automatically grant all and sundry the right to open it and read the contents? If not, why should electronic mail be any different?


User currently offlineprebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6481 posts, RR: 54
Reply 55, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2136 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 54):
If I were asked to log in to Gmail or whatever, my answer would simply be "I do not have a Gmail or _______ account". End of story.

When was it last time we bought an airline ticket without giving our email address? For me, some distant century.

Quoting zrs70 (Reply 22):
...the TSA could learn something from Israeli security. In Israel, they are trained to search for terrorists. In the US, they are trained to look for weapons.

  

They are trained to ask questions that "put you off balance". They may not even listen to your answer, but they watch very carefully your "body language" reaction to their "stupid" questions or requests.

There is a good reason why 9/11 didn't happen in TLV.

I wouldn't say it is convenient to pass Israeli security, because it isn't. But when you have no bad intentions and have nothing to hide, then you just answer their questions correctly and react correctly to their requests, and you pass with a smile. But when you try to make "shortcuts", then they will discover.

They are professionals, they know how to do their job, we don't. And we shouldn't know. Their system works because we don't know.



Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2889 posts, RR: 8
Reply 56, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2109 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 55):
The actions by Israeli officials in requesting to see the contents of a gmail account is little different to the rights of Australian officials to do inspect computers at an Australian port of arrival.

Hi Quokkas

I have never heard of boarder officials (Australian immigration) requesting passwords to websites. They may well inspect your computer etc upon entry, but as I say, I have never heard of such actions here in Australia. I may well be wrong though. maybe you have a better knowledge of this than I?
I would also imagine, that some sort of court order is necessary before people would feel compelled to comply with such a request, again this is just my opinion.



Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlineCadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1595 posts, RR: 4
Reply 57, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 1 day ago) and read 2101 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 51):
Security, or a feeling of security, is relative. Let's see what happens if a suicide bomber (or 2 or 3) blows himself up in a suburban mall.

Very honestly speaking, after 9-11, the Israelis were willing to help us with airline security. We turned them down. I feel safe in Israel. I know that in a mall there, the worst thing that's going to happen is maybe getting pick pocketed.

I have never seen anyone of Arab descent discriminated. As a matter of fact, here's one example. At the Western Wall, we (the Jews) will allow ANYONE to visit it. Bible aside...the Jordanians (who mantain Al-Aqsa and the Dome of the Rock) will not allow non Muslims on the grounds. Do Arabs sometimes get more questioning by police, etc? Yes. But then again, so would a white person over here who id in a bad neighborhood at night.

Marc


User currently offlinemad99 From Spain, joined Mar 2012, 594 posts, RR: 0
Reply 58, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2085 times:

Quoting mcogator (Reply 30):
It says there are three other known cases.

Once leaving TLV a man next to me started to change is story regarding he's final destination. The security man asked "why are you lying to me" they removed him from the q for further questioning. I'm sure this happens all the time, this isn't pc correct land, these guys are serious.

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 32):
And security on the Israeli side is much faster. I've never spent more then ten minutes waiting in line...I don't have to take my shoes off

ha!
@ TLV the security works like this...first you q and are met by a security person. You hand over you passport and they ask the typical questions. Then (in my case) the person goes off and and consults with another security person and the person will come and question me. Then i pass through scanners, scanning my laptop in a special box with it completely open (flat). That scanned info is sent to a area with other agents and i'm told to q at station number xx. Then they open my bags etc and do the bomb material check. Now with the all clear i can proceed to check in.

Once checked in, you get to q again and do the normal security check in (scan bages etc.)

I would suggest arriving 2 hrs early at the minimum, i'm a ff so the qing is less but all the rest is the same for everyone.



Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 47):
And are you asked this upon entering Israel ?

I've never been.
If you are able to get on a flight then the entry is no different to Montreal, how long are you staying etc.

If your a Nigerian transvestite with a special lap-dance visa your entry experience might differ but then you knew that already!


User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2432 posts, RR: 24
Reply 59, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2051 times:

Can you really blame Israel for doing something like this? Most of their closest neighbours want to wipe them off the map even if they don't want to admit it.


Plus, if it were me, I would have no problem showing them my emails. I've got absolutely nothing to hide and nothing of value to them. I'd say don't visit Israel if you are not willing to accept their safety measures. They can probably do without you anyway.


User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2439 posts, RR: 14
Reply 60, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2036 times:

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 60):
Can you really blame Israel for doing something like this? Most of their closest neighbours want to wipe them off the map even if they don't want to admit it.

Not this myth again. We've heard enough echoes from the wars of 1948 and 1967. To say that Israel is in danger amounts to an insult to the top-notch Israel army.

Much more could be done by reducing security expenses by 1 % and by honestly improving relations with the Arab countries by 0.1 %.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 60):
Plus, if it were me, I would have no problem showing them my emails. I've got absolutely nothing to hide and nothing of value to them. I'd say don't visit Israel if you are not willing to accept their safety measures. They can probably do without you anyway.

Which only reinforces *their* own security perception. "We feel safe because we force people to undergo these strict measures." And when no suicide bombing or something else happens, they feel that these measures have worked. But this is a very skewed sense of security. And then it even opens a playfield for racists.



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2432 posts, RR: 24
Reply 61, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2031 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 61):
To say that Israel is in danger amounts to an insult to the top-notch Israel army.

Well, agree to disagree. I trust that you won't come and visit Israel anytime soon. I am keen on going soon though.


User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 62, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2004 times:

Hi Commodore.

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 57):
I would also imagine, that some sort of court order is necessary

Australian Customs and Border Protection Officers have coercive powers of questioning under the Customs Act 1901 and the Crimes Act 1914. Officers also have compulsory questioning powers under other legislation including the Migration Act 1958, the Environment Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Act 1999 and the Anti-Money Laundering and Counter-Terrorism Financing Act 2006.

Officers have the power to conduct searches of anything in your luggage, to examine documents and make copies. This includes the right to examine laptops, hard discs and removable drives and other electronic media.

I have no direct experience of their insisting on anyone logging on to email accounts but if they found materials that warranted further investigation they would undoubtedly prolong your stay with them.

A search of the Australian Customs and Border Protection web site will reveal several reported instances of people being arrested and charged with offences as a result of such searches. Each and every one of those people would have seen the questions on the Incoming Passenger Card and given a false declaration.

With respect to such questioning by officials in Israel, it is likely that the question was not a random one. In these days of Advance Passenger Information being provided, Security would be aware of who is intending to arrive and persons of interest would be flagged. It is likely to be known in advance whether such people have a Gmail account or not. After all, there is not much point in demanding someone log into a non-existent account.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9524 posts, RR: 31
Reply 63, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 1939 times:

Quoting Cadet985 (Reply 32):
And security on the Israeli side is much faster. I've never spent more then ten minutes waiting in line...I don't have to take my shoes off,

yes, on my most recent trip I had 2 bags and I decided to take both carry-on. After checking in (which is right after the firswt "interrogation point, which was passed quickly, I asked at the hand carry check point if I need to show the liquids separately, the aqnswer was NO and that took all less than a minute. And, yes, i did not have to take off my shoes either.

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 38):
Something can be lawfully right, or something can be morally right. By asking travellers to allow access to their e-mail accounts certainly isn't right referring to the latter term

The USA does not even ask., They scan the net and e-mails for 317 key words 24/7/365 and all of us are listed since we type some of the key words on a daily base in this forum

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 59):
Can you really blame Israel for doing something like this? Most of their closest neighbours want to wipe them off the map even if they don't want to admit it.

brought to the point. All it takes for Arabian countries including Palestine to put Israel on their maps and stop the BS of destroying Israel and "send the israelis into the Mediterranean". Even arch foes can become friends, some countries are living prrof of that.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 64, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 1924 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 63):
The USA does not even ask., They scan the net and e-mails for 317 key words 24/7/365 and all of us are listed since we type some of the key words on a daily base in this forum

I suspect that they are not alone in that. Intelligence Agencies around the world, if given the resources, will be doing the same. The only question that arises is how justified or reliable are the conclusions that they may draw from reading my email regarding a shopping trip or a visit to the dentist. I mean, how am I supposed to know that the dentist once wrote something hostile back in 1953?  

I take it as par for the course that if you travel you will be investigated to some extent. Some may attract more attention than others simply because of their name, nationality, ethnic background or some supposed affiliations. The assumptions that are made may be completely false, but we have to live with it in the hope that "we have nothing to hide" and all is for the greater good. Where have I heard that before? Lubyanka? Prinz-Albrecht-Strasse? There have been several reported instances of people being placed on no-fly lists through mistaken identity. Very upsetting for those involved, particularly as they also had "nothing to hide".

But what is the alternative? It is easy to criticise but how do we guarantee the safety of law-abiding passengers?


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9524 posts, RR: 31
Reply 65, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 1894 times:

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 64):
But what is the alternative? It is easy to criticise but how do we guarantee the safety of law-abiding passengers?

I am absolutely relaxed about the scanning. I just mentioned it, I mean some here question the interrogation by Israeli security before boarding a flight. I fully agree with the Israeli security and I really do not care that the US and surely otehrs scan the net for key words.

I always, in many of my answers here supported profiling. If it serves security, fine with me.,



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 66, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 1890 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 65):
I am absolutely relaxed about the scanning.

On the whole, so am I.

Please do not take me the wrong way. I know what you mean. I just raised the question generally as there is no simple answer that I can think of. It is difficult to weigh the rights of individuals with the rights of collectives. The best that we can hope for is that the people entrusted with the powers behave in an ethical fashion. And even more so, the people above them.

 


User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 25737 posts, RR: 50
Reply 67, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 1885 times:

Quoting lewis (Reply 53):
My gmail account which I may never have accessed from a company computer is in no way subject to access or review (legally) by anyone unless I give permission.

False. Even Google says so. As a law abiding company they share materials with police or government authorities as lawfully requested. In 2010 alone they received over 31 million such notifications globally per a news story.

Additionally as PanHAM mentions there looks to be extensive email monitoring by the government. Just a few weeks ago the list of 300 odd keywords were published that the US government searches for, while the UK just revealed a new law that allows calls, emails, texts and website visits of everyone in the UK to be monitored.

So if you think you can keep fully private control over your material out on the cloud you are being naive.

Quoting lewis (Reply 53):
Same goes for my physical exam results or my bank account statements that are in digital form.

Banking transaction monitoring and data sharing is extremely extensive in the US for example. If the government wants to see it, they can access it.

Quoting lewis (Reply 53):
Also, the contents of my inbox are not on my person in any way. They are just a bunch of 1s and 0s stored in a server somewhere far far away from my person. If I were asked to log in to Gmail or whatever, my answer would simply be "I do not have a Gmail or _______ account". End of story.

Well if its not yours, why do you say it must remain private then?

Also acting dumb, or not cooperating with authorities is hardly the best idea. The outcome is likely to be a worse fate.

Quoting Quokkas (Reply 54):
Why?

I simply don't buy the notion of anything being 100% private. Besides a 15-year old in Russia being able to hack into things, I do believe government does hold the authority to review things, especially in context of border inspections.
I well recall in the late 1970s/early 1980s when video tapes were becoming common, customs would "borrow" them and review what people had on them. At the time it seemed to be a good means to transport political propangada, and later pornography.
Same goes for physical paper media. If I am carrying documents on me when crossing a border, I do not expect them to be exempt somehow from review by border agents.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 68, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 1870 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 67):
I simply don't buy the notion of anything being 100% private.

Thank you for your reply. I was a bit puzzled about whether you accept things as being inevitable or whether you accept that they should be that way.

While I recognise that if I move from one jurisdiction to another I may surrender some privacy, that is a world away from surrendering it in general. A kid in Russia may hack into an account but if caught faces penalties, would you not agree?

There is also the general question of how much individual sovereignty you are prepared to surrender to the government. While governments may seek to extend their powers, is this always desirable? Where do you draw the line?

[Edited 2012-06-08 12:25:08]

User currently offlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2439 posts, RR: 14
Reply 69, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 1874 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 63):
The USA does not even ask., They scan the net and e-mails for 317 key words 24/7/365 and all of us are listed since we type some of the key words on a daily base in this forum

Statistical noise will defeat such crude keyword searches. I've suggested posting as much as random and nonsensical drivel as possible on Facebook or elsewhere to drown out the relevant stuff. 
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 65):
If it serves security, fine with me.,

I'm genuinely worried.


...no time for a longer posting... *ducks*


David

[Edited 2012-06-08 12:08:48]


Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineCadet985 From United States of America, joined Mar 2002, 1595 posts, RR: 4
Reply 70, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 1850 times:

Quoting mad99 (Reply 58):
@ TLV the security works like this...first you q and are met by a security person. You hand over you passport and they ask the typical questions. Then (in my case) the person goes off and and consults with another security person and the person will come and question me. Then i pass through scanners, scanning my laptop in a special box with it completely open (flat). That scanned info is sent to a area with other agents and i'm told to q at station number xx. Then they open my bags etc and do the bomb material check. Now with the all clear i can proceed to check in.

Once checked in, you get to q again and do the normal security check in (scan bages etc.)

I would suggest arriving 2 hrs early at the minimum, i'm a ff so the qing is less but all the rest is the same for everyone.

Here's my typical experience at TLV (when using a shuttle, not having a friend drop me off):

Shuttle stops at airport border, and agent gets on to talk with each passenger, and if he/she feels like it, check a passport or two. Proceed to terminal. Standard questions (why have I been in Israel, who packed my bags, etc.). Sticker is put on passport, and I am directed to the check in desks. Enter secure area after putting my stuff through x-ray and taking laptop out of bag. Go to passport control for my exit stamp where I am usually wished a safe trip and told to come back soon. Do whatever I feel like until it's time to board.

If I have a friend drop me off, the only differences are parking the car, and getting a bite to eat before security.

Marc


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9524 posts, RR: 31
Reply 71, posted (2 years 4 months 2 weeks 8 hours ago) and read 1819 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 69):
Statistical noise will defeat such crude keyword searches. I've suggested posting as much as random and nonsensical drivel as possible on Facebook or elsewhere to drown out the relevant stuff.

For starters you can try to put as many of the 317 key words in your signature here  



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinelewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3654 posts, RR: 5
Reply 72, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 1478 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 67):
Well if its not yours, why do you say it must remain private then?

Not being on my person does not mean not mine. I am not carrying my thumb drive on my person every day but it and its contents are still mine. The Israeli border control wanting to perform a search of my car where I left my USB stick, that is parked in my garage in CA in order for me to be admitted sounds as dumb to me as them wanting to look into documents that are not on my person, whether these are in my email or stored somewhere remotely.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 67):
False.

Ok, so you say:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 67):
As a law abiding company they share materials with police or government authorities as lawfully requested.

What do you define lawfully requested? I would assume a subpoena? As a "law-abiding" company I am sure that they will need some "paperwork" to do that and not just a call from John who works at customs @LAX....

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 67):
Additionally as PanHAM mentions there looks to be extensive email monitoring by the government.

Let them. I doubt I use any of the words they are looking for. At least they do not have a person going through (and reading) all my emails but a bot that looks for specific words and flags. See the difference?

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 67):

Banking transaction monitoring and data sharing is extremely extensive in the US for example. If the government wants to see it, they can access it.

For starters, I think this is mostly for investigations that involve fraud or any activity on one's account. Also, I would like to think that such an investigation into my accounts would require a warrant or a subpoena if they are asking my bank to provide the information, correct? Is that something that John who works at customs @LAX can do? Doubt it.

Quoting prebennorholm (Reply 55):

When was it last time we bought an airline ticket without giving our email address?

I mostly use my work email.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 67):
Also acting dumb, or not cooperating with authorities is hardly the best idea.

Unless any law enforcement authority can quote the exact rule/regulation/law they are following in order to ask out-of-the-ordinary things from me, I always act dumb. If they are so sure that they can ask something unheard of, then they must know what sort of rule they are basing their request on, wouldn't you agree? For example, if a police officer approaches me while I walk home and asks me for my driver's license, should I just present it to him or not? It would be no biggie for me to pull it out of my wallet but what if there is nothing that gives him the right to ask for it? It is not about being a smart-a**, its more about knowing and enforcing the limits that law enforcement should be following. As long as they can show that they have the right to access personal information (especially remote information not on my person, as the subject of this discussion is), then they can go ahead. But from what I know, most if not all border crossings require you to give up for inspection anything you are carrying with you, not things that belong to you but are somewhere else...


User currently offlinebigorange From United States of America, joined Apr 2004, 2371 posts, RR: 3
Reply 73, posted (2 years 4 months 1 week 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1313 times:

Quoting raffik (Reply 4):
Terrible. It makes me wonder why anyone would endure these security measures in order to travel to Israel.
It sounds like thoroughly dreadful experience.

I agree! If I wanted to visit Israel, I'd drive the 2 miles from home to Lakewood, NJ which has more synagogues than Brooklyn.


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