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Best Commencement Speech. Ever.  
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 3188 times:

Commencement speaker's message to the students: "You're not special."

This hits the nail on the head, but is surprisingly inspiring in the end.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...students-special-article-1.1092109

56 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently onlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5600 posts, RR: 15
Reply 1, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3082 times:

The speech is inspiring...at least to us parents trying to raise productive members of society. To those of us trying to raise producers, not takers. To those of us trying to raise well adjusted folks that don't run to mommy and daddy every time something goes wrong.

"The teacher warned students that Americans have come to appreciate accolades more than genuine achievement, and will compromise standards in order to secure a higher spot on the social totem pole."

Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...al-article-1.1092109#ixzz1xIdUeU9Q

Probably one of the best lines in the speech.

Too many Americans have come to think that good intentions are enough, without measuring and evaluating the results of those intentions.

This teacher did these graduates a re great service. I wonder how many realize that? I wonder how many parents immediately coddled their children after the speech?

I try to raise my kids to be as self-sufficient as possible.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineGBLKD From United Kingdom, joined Jan 2011, 345 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 3064 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 1):
I try to raise my kids to be as self-sufficient as possible.

This is the key to good parenting IMHO.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 1):
"The teacher warned students that Americans have come to appreciate accolades more than genuine achievement, and will compromise standards in order to secure a higher spot on the social totem pole."

It's not a uniqely American problem. Many kids have grown up with the boom years and massive amounts of expensive diposable consumer goods that they feel they have a right to. Couple that with the proliferation of "celebrity" reality shows and talent contests such as X Factor etc.

There are 2 cults that have been skewed out of all proportion in recent years "middle class" (I really despise that term) and "celebrity" is the other.

Many young people assume they are entitled through birthright to leave school or University and automatically be granted a celebrity or middle class lifestyle without actually putting the graft in to achieve it. They see other people with big houses stuffed with Apple iBore products and a nice car in the garage and think they should have it all right now. They don't get that the people who have this stuff have more than likely worked thier asses off over a number of years to reach that standard of living.

Aspiration and the work ethic that go with it are admirable qualities but a spoiled brattish sense of entitlement isn't.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40029 posts, RR: 74
Reply 3, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 11 hours ago) and read 2952 times:

This man is spot on and discredited what a lot had been taught in class.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 1):
I wonder how many parents immediately coddled their children after the speech?



Hah!  
Quoting GBLKD (Reply 2):
Many young people assume they are entitled through birthright to leave school or University and automatically be granted a celebrity or middle class lifestyle without actually putting the graft in to achieve it.


I remember a high school teachers and few college professors telling students that all you need is a degree in any major and you'll get a decent job. I of course knew better. Too many Universities are cranking out idiots.
Many of these Occupy Wall Street kids are recent college grads that were expecting high salary jobs in hip, trendy big cities with just an art history degree and no professional experience. I know that's not all of them but a lot of them are of this ilk.

[Edited 2012-06-09 14:26:25]


Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8431 posts, RR: 9
Reply 4, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2887 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 3):
I remember a high school teachers and few college professors telling students that all you need is a degree in any major and you'll get a decent job.

A decent job gets you into the middle class after a start up period.

As for what the degree should be, that is always open to opinion. We don't everyone to graduate with an engineering degree. I read an article many years ago by Stanley Marcus, CEO of Neiman Marcus. His position was simple - he wanted liberal arts graduates. He said he could teach them business, but business graduates wouldn't be developed in the liberal arts areas.

Same with Steve Jobs in some ways. He was intense about "The Intersection of Technology & Liberal Arts". Look how well his company has done. Actually, Steve Jobs address at the Stanford Graduation some years back is also considered a classic.

As far as parents (and grandparents go) we have a lot of opportunities over the years to help our kids and grandkids develop a sense of morals, integrity, concern for those in our schools & communities. We can teach them that there are a lot of countries in this world - that the US is not the only, or sometimes the best country.

And we can teach about diversity, tolerance and different cultures. There is nothing more damaging IMO than raising a kid who is intolerant.


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21495 posts, RR: 53
Reply 5, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2873 times:

It is all too easy to call young people summarily self-indulgent, pampered and unrealistic.

Reality is much more complicated.

Many if not most young people are acutely aware that the "good old times" are a thing of the past for a large part, and that their role will be largely cleaning up the messes that have been made by their priors on many fronts, be they ecologically, economically, financially and in other ways.

Many young people are looking at a future of greatly diminished opportunities for themselves if not outright unemployment, paying back various kinds of debts that many of them had little benefits from.

The future is not what it may have been in bygone decades – but the complaints about the young are the same as they had been for at least as long as recorded history and literature. You will find the same dismissive attitudes and whiny complaints about the ingrateful and worthless youth in ancient egyptian, greek and roman texts.

Fact is that right now we're looking at the bills for the easy living of the decades passed, and it won't be ourselves who will have to pay those off for the most part.

Being actually realistic requires a bit of humility and compassion of us older generations as well – we have been far from the perfect parents and ancestors some seem to believe. A whole lot less arrogance and a lot more constructive and progressive attitudes are called for now.

It would be hypocritical to make haughty demands of the young if their elders are incapable or unwilling to actually lead by good example.

[Edited 2012-06-09 18:06:02]

User currently offlineQFA380 From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 2081 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 7 hours ago) and read 2838 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 3):

I remember a high school teachers and few college professors telling students that all you need is a degree in any major and you'll get a decent job.

You say this despite him saying:

Quote:
I urge you to do whatever you do for no reason other than you love it and believe in its importance.

Which basically says: if you don't wanna do something (get a useful degree for instance) you don't have to. His whole speech is redundant it starts off as 'your not special' then winds up as, 'so don't let world tell you what to do because the world doesn't matter'. Which means go out and be special!

Quoting Klaus (Reply 5):

This! I rarely agree with you but the point is spot on. There's a reason we don't live in the good old days, people are a product of their society and as society shifts as will people. Apparently though its turned around and we're to blame the people created by society. Induce a society where everyone is entitled to everything and people will think they're entitled to everything.

I would bet my last dollar that my generation will likely think this of the generation after us.

Quoting GBLKD (Reply 2):
Many kids have grown up with the boom years

This is incredible!! The highest growth the western world has ever experienced came as the boomers were growing up. The same people who have gotten us into the predicaments we're in today. Gen Y hasn't been around long enough to shape this world but apparently everything is our fault still.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8917 posts, RR: 24
Reply 7, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2821 times:

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 6):
This is incredible!! The highest growth the western world has ever experienced came as the boomers were growing up. The same people who have gotten us into the predicaments we're in today. Gen Y hasn't been around long enough to shape this world but apparently everything is our fault still.

There is a big difference. The last generation to really know true hardship was the generation that knew the Great Depression and WWII. They knew the value of self-sufficiency, hard work, and thrift. They lived in a period when if you made the wrong choices, you and your family could die from cold and starvation. My grandfather was of that generation, and his lessons to me were all about never getting into debt - don't buy a car that you can't afford to pay cash for - the only allowable debt should be for your house (and even on that he was skeptical).

The boomers spawned from that generation somewhat kept those lessons, but by now that understanding has been completely diluted away. Nowadays, you can buy an IPod on credit. Imagine - getting into debt for a toy!



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8707 posts, RR: 3
Reply 8, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 5 days 1 hour ago) and read 2769 times:

I once heard a speech from Al Sharpton.... the most unexpected moment of inspiration I'm ever going to hear in person. His message was, most people's funeral is undeserved. Most people are cowardly and do nothing. Do great things so you actually deserve the funeral you are going to get.

User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 9, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2717 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
The boomers spawned from that generation somewhat kept those lessons, but by now that understanding has been completely diluted away. Nowadays, you can buy an IPod on credit. Imagine - getting into debt for a toy!

Ironically, the "Greatest Generation" and Boomers profited hand over fist in the course of creating our current 'consumer culture' that has resulted in an inordinate emphasis on youth, 'having it now', and accumulating debt in order to satisfy 'wants'. Then from inside their gated communities or the decks of their boats they bitch about how the kids today are impatient to live the good live and display a sense of entitlement!

I'm no great parent but I'm pretty sure I've already done a substantially better job with my 10 year old than my parents did with us. At least I'm staying married to my wife, not an alchoholic or crippling my daughter's athletic development with respiratory problems caused by second-hand cigarette smoke.

Likewise I don't think there is anything wrong with shamelessly expressing affection and appreciation for a kid's (genuinely) positive qualities. Heaven forbid a kid leaves the house with a healthy self-image and some confidence...which is not nearly the same thing as being a spoiled brat, but I suppose many Boomers have a hard time telling the difference during the brief intervals where they are not completely focused on themselves.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 6):
His whole speech is redundant it starts off as 'your not special' then winds up as, 'so don't let world tell you what to do because the world doesn't matter'. Which means go out and be special!

I think all he was trying to say was that everyone is special in their own way, so it is wrong for these graduating individuals to think that the world owes them anything other than what they go out and work for. Regardless, what I liked about this commencement speech was that it emphasized how these graduates fit into a much larger world and that the whole point to life is BEING excellent rather than accumulating the trappings of excellence. Living an excellent life is its own reward.


User currently onlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5600 posts, RR: 15
Reply 10, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 13 hours ago) and read 2660 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 4):
Same with Steve Jobs in some ways. He was intense about "The Intersection of Technology & Liberal Arts". Look how well his company has done. Actually, Steve Jobs address at the Stanford Graduation some years back is also considered a classic.

Funny, when I pursued my business degree, I had a very healthy chunk of liberal arts. A well balanced curriculum should include the liberal arts, along with the core curriculum of the specified major.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 6):
Which means go out and be special!

Yes, go out and be special because you aren't anything special now. You're not special because your friends, parents and teachers say you're special. Achieve something and you may become special.

You know, I really don't like that word: 'special'. It, like many other words, has been cheapened. I guess that's one of the points of the speech.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 5):
%u2013 but the complaints about the young are the same as they had been for at least as long as recorded history and literature.

Absolutely, but at some point, the older generations do a dis-service to the younger generation when they don't allow that generation to understand that failure is a part of growing up and a part of life. Not everyone can get a trophy. Average work deserves an average grade, even if the whole class is average. These kids are unprepared for college, where, in many cases, reality meets the fantasy world of social promotion, special kids, no-score athletics, etc.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 6):
Gen Y hasn't been around long enough to shape this world but apparently everything is our fault still.

No, you haven't been here long enough. But, I am uninspired by the entitlement attitude that appears to be dominate in your generation. It goes back to too many kids being told they are special and are entitled to everything they want...without the work that should accompany such rewards.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8431 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2641 times:

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 6):
The highest growth the western world has ever experienced came as the boomers were growing up. The same people who have gotten us into the predicaments we're in today

If you look at the "Boomer Period" you will see the start of it in the 40's and early 50's when parents went to college on the GI Bill. And became engineers, accountants, lawyers, doctors, etc. (Note well: even those without the GI Bill were able to get a degree without a lifetime of debt to pay for it.)

And that was when the middle class started for so many people. The economics were pretty simple for those with a High School diploma or College degree. Even high school graduates could work, get married and have a family, and buy a house. A modest house - McMansion weren't that important. And a decent car, even if they bought it used. And those people understood that they could work hard and their kids could go to college if they wanted.

Baby Boomers generally understood that they would spend some time in the military. During the Vietnam War there were efforts to "miss out" on service by some, but millions did serve. If you look at all of the wars since WW II that was on our financial shoulders it is pretty obvious that wars, and their long term costs, are a healthy chunk of the country's financial situation. Our "predicament", as you would say.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 5):
Many young people are looking at a future of greatly diminished opportunities for themselves if not outright unemployment, paying back various kinds of debts that many of them had little benefits from.

Some times we ned to recognize that the opportunities have moved to someplace else, not diminished on a global scale. Shifting production to China is a classic example. Part of that problem is that China can offer lower wages. Other parts of that problem is that China can look at a 5 or 10 year investment to bring production in.

In the US there is a panic if things go wrong in a single financial quarter. We, as a nation, have an inability to have a failure when developing new industries. Give us one failure out of a dozen tries and it's off to China for success and we can re-focus our attention on building more McDonalds.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
The last generation to really know true hardship was the generation that knew the Great Depression and WWII.

You don't think there is genuine poverty in this country?

Ironically, we are shrinking the middle class, which is going to increase poverty

WW II did not stop the hardship of serving in a war zone. Start with Korea, then Vietnam and end up in the Middle East.

There have been many Americans who have endured hardships at some levels with military conflicts, up to young people today.

And now a lot of Americans have endured the Great Recession, thanks to the previous, conservative Administration.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
They lived in a period when if you made the wrong choices, you and your family could die from cold and starvation.

Hunger is still a huge problem here, which is why we need to have school breakfast & lunches. And our electric & gas companies has long allowed customers to donate on their bill payments to help those who are having problems.

Problems that are not new and not close to elimination.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 10):
You're not special because your friends, parents and teachers say you're special.

But you can be better because of those friends, parents and teachers. Support, motivation, guidance. Unfortunately we seem to be putting teachers down these days, which will be a huge disincentive for the brightest high school students to look at being a teacher. The high school I went to 50+ years ago was as good as a public school can get. And that was because both the families and the neighborhood worked to make it great, and invested the time and money. That's what moves students above average.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 10):
dis-service to the younger generation when they don't allow that generation to understand that failure is a part of growing up and a part of life.

Young people can see failure around them, just like they see people die. It is part of life, but then we can teach kids how to avoid some failures. Brushing teeth twice a day (and flossing) to keep teeth from failing from decay. Exercising to burn up calories and eating well to avoid obesity and diabetes.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 10):
reality meets the fantasy world of social promotion, special kids, no-score athletics, etc.

That is the world of Special Olympics and, IMO, far better than institutional care an entire life.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20241 posts, RR: 59
Reply 12, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 11 hours ago) and read 2627 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 4):
Actually, Steve Jobs address at the Stanford Graduation some years back is also considered a classic.

I graduated from Stanford in 2000. Our commencement speaker was Kofi Annan. A Stanford graduating class is a pretty intense group of people to receive a commencement address. There are a lot of future world leaders in that audience. Mr. Annan was obviously well aware of that because he stood there and told us that everyone was ignoring the environment and all but begged us to do something about it.

The next year (my Masters degree) was Carly Fiorina who talked to us about... nothing in particular.


User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8917 posts, RR: 24
Reply 13, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2593 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 11):
You don't think there is genuine poverty in this country?

Nothing like what it was before. Among the households we currently define as being "in poverty", 99.9% have refrigerators, 98.7% have color TVs, 84% have air-conditioning (those who don't most likely love in northern climes where you don't need it), 79.1% have cable or satellite TV, 82% have their own clothes washing machines. These are luxuries. To me, poverty means that you don't have enough food or clothing, and you risk not having a roof over your head if you miss a single paycheck.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 11):
WW II did not stop the hardship of serving in a war zone. Start with Korea, then Vietnam and end up in the Middle East.

All of which were nothing compared to the Total War effort of WWII, where we had hundreds of thousands of dead troops (and we had it relatively easy).

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 11):
Hunger is still a huge problem here, which is why we need to have school breakfast & lunches. And our electric & gas companies has long allowed customers to donate on their bill payments to help those who are having problems.

Which is all well and good - but I would point out to you that one of the biggest problems among the poor in the US (including children) is obesity.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 14, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2592 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 10):
No, you haven't been here long enough. But, I am uninspired by the entitlement attitude that appears to be dominate in your generation. It goes back to too many kids being told they are special and are entitled to everything they want...without the work that should accompany such rewards.

fr8mech, I'm in the same age bracket as you (GEN X) and I could swear they were saying the same damned thing about us! We were the disenfranchised slackers constantly looking for a pat on the back just for showing up. I remember it so clearly because I remember being pissed off about being stereotyped like that.

Now we're the steady contributors and these GEN Y 'punks' are the ones who expect everything handed to them? I don't buy it.

To whatever extent the 'younger generations' are UNSAT in our eyes, it inevitably comes back on the older generations, doesn't it. The primary function of any species is to set their young up for success, right?

FAIL.

[Edited 2012-06-10 16:36:17]

User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21495 posts, RR: 53
Reply 15, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2581 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 11):
Some times we ned to recognize that the opportunities have moved to someplace else, not diminished on a global scale. Shifting production to China is a classic example. Part of that problem is that China can offer lower wages. Other parts of that problem is that China can look at a 5 or 10 year investment to bring production in.

But even in China they've developed a huge real estate bubble and the fallout from the global crisis has begun to move in as well. Many chinese people have achieved some success, but it is far from certain that this is actually sustainable the way it's been going for the long run. They're faced with steep challenges as well in the coming years.

Just look at Japan, whose success had been completely overestimated in the 1980s and which has seen its bubbles and unresolved problems catch up with it in subsequent years.

The challenge on a global level is to reach a more sustainable way of living and working – on all levels. And we, the older generations, can yet contribute our experience (even if we've caused many of the problems ourselves which we're facing now) while the younger generations will need all the support and the encouragement they can get to make a fresh start in many respects.


User currently offlineQFA380 From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 2081 posts, RR: 1
Reply 16, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2564 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 11):
The economics were pretty simple for those with a High School diploma or College degree.

This seems to be a theme through your posts that anyone with a high school education should be able to support a family and live a comfortable life. The western world has changed and to be able to grow we've had to lift our productivity, the easiest way to do this is through education. Something that you'll probably agree with me on is the issues with funding, where high school is payed for by the government, yet the expectation is that one has a Bachelors degree but the government refuses to pay for it so instead people get saddled with years worth of debt unless you were rich enough to pay for it all upfront.

There simply isn't enough jobs for people without any skills, that pay high enough to support them. You want your $5 McDonalds but the idea of paying the guy flipping burgers $40 an hour is insane.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 11):
which will be a huge disincentive for the brightest high school students to look at being a teacher.

No the market has lead to the brightest not becoming teachers. There is an incredible supply of people from the bottom of the academic standings who want to become teachers. Teaching has always been a commodity and always will be for 90% of teachers, the other 10% aren't career teachers, they're those who excelled in something else and moved to teaching. Intelligent students know that it is best not to work in a field where workers are commoditised, such as being a pilot, as it is easy to be taken advantage of and find yourself out of work.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 10):
Achieve something and you may become special.

There's almost nothing we can achieve that will make us special. Climb Everest? 500 people do that a year. Start a company and become a billionaire? There's 1300 of those. Start a non-profit? There's thousands of those too.
Only a very minute portion of society (less than 0.01%) will ever do something truly special and those are the people who were born to be special and who people noticed very early. Telling people they can 'become' special just leaves them disillusioned when they realise that no matter how hard they work they're not actually special.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 7):
The boomers spawned from that generation somewhat kept those lessons,

The boomers oversaw the dismantling of society, anything that was hard was done away with. Getting knocked up and having a kid. Thats hard so we've got abortion. Holding together a struggling marriage. Thats hard but we've got no fault divorce. Military service is hard so there's no conscription and likely never will be. Starting a successful company in a new industry is hard but the worlds awash with green grants and loans. No one in the west will go hungry if they screw up in life.

The last 40 years have been a complete dismantling of hardship, the boomers have not at all kept the lessons of the WWII and Great Depression generation.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 11):
Exercising to burn up calories and eating well to avoid obesity and diabetes.

Getting obese has been made easy too! You go on a disability pension and the government will fund your inevitable treatment costs. When there's no external consequences for failing there's no incentive not to fail.


I think that'll do me...


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21495 posts, RR: 53
Reply 17, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2557 times:

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 16):
The last 40 years have been a complete dismantling of hardship, the boomers have not at all kept the lessons of the WWII and Great Depression generation.

I'd say the primary lesson from those experiences is this: Never let that happen again in the first place!


User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 18, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2531 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):
Which is all well and good - but I would point out to you that one of the biggest problems among the poor in the US (including children) is obesity.

Not defending them by any stretch, but this actually makes some sense when you look at the dizzying array of high calorie/low nutrition crap available everywhere at minimal cost in the US.

Thanks to our fantastic agricultural marketing machine that runs on corn syrup. Again, one could argue the older generation selling the kids out for a buck. Who cares if they have diabetes and no teeth when they're 35.


User currently offlineus330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3873 posts, RR: 13
Reply 19, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 8 hours ago) and read 2531 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 3):
Too many Universities are cranking out idiots.
Many of these Occupy Wall Street kids are recent college grads that were expecting high salary jobs in hip, trendy big cities with just an art history degree and no professional experience.
Quoting Superfly (Reply 3):
I know that's not all of them but a lot of them are of this ilk.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 4):
said he could teach them business, but business graduates wouldn't be developed in the liberal arts areas.

Pre-recession, during the boom, that was generally the case, with one giant asterisk that people forget--it depends on where you went to school and how well you did in class, demonstrating a pattern of achievement or high potential. When profits and revenues were high, companies were willing to spend more and invest in younger workers to train them (some bigger companies still have management training programs). In the post-recession world, when companies are living quarter to quarter, and revenues and costs are unpredictable, as is the potential for a future financial crisis, companies are more concerned about maintaining adequate cash reserves to wait out economic turmoil and are less willing to invest in their younger employees.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 5):
Fact is that right now we're looking at the bills for the easy living of the decades passed, and it won't be ourselves who will have to pay those off for the most part.

Case in point, see social security. I am not expecting to see a dime of any of the money I pay for social security.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 5):
Being actually realistic requires a bit of humility and compassion of us older generations as well – we have been far from the perfect parents and ancestors some seem to believe. A whole lot less arrogance and a lot more constructive and progressive attitudes are called for now.
Quoting Klaus (Reply 5):
It would be hypocritical to make haughty demands of the young if their elders are incapable or unwilling to actually lead by good example.

Thank you. Remember, Generation Y didn't get us into this mess--baby boomers did.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 11):
In the US there is a panic if things go wrong in a single financial quarter.

It's not just the U.S.--the markets as a whole are jittery.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21800 posts, RR: 55
Reply 20, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 7 hours ago) and read 2518 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):
Among the households we currently define as being "in poverty", 99.9% have refrigerators, 98.7% have color TVs, 84% have air-conditioning (those who don't most likely love in northern climes where you don't need it), 79.1% have cable or satellite TV, 82% have their own clothes washing machines. These are luxuries.

A refrigerator is not a luxury. Our entire food distribution system is set up on the principle that people will be able to store food for a number of days. And that takes refrigeration.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8917 posts, RR: 24
Reply 21, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 2498 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 20):
A refrigerator is not a luxury. Our entire food distribution system is set up on the principle that people will be able to store food for a number of days. And that takes refrigeration.

It is a convenience - not strictly required for survival (otherwise how did people live up to the last century.

pov·er·ty   [pov-er-tee]
noun
1.
the state or condition of having little or no money, goods, or means of support; condition of being poor. Synonyms: privation, neediness, destitution, indigence, pauperism, penury. Antonyms: riches, wealth, plenty.

There is indeed poverty in the world. I've seen it. I've spent time in the back woods of India and Africa and Southeast Asia. What we call poverty is not it. It became politically advantageous for US politicians to broaden the definition to include people who would like to have the latest TV, but can only afford one that's 5 years old.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20241 posts, RR: 59
Reply 22, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2482 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 21):
It is a convenience - not strictly required for survival (otherwise how did people live up to the last century.

It is required for survival in this country.


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8431 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 2468 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 12):
who talked to us about... nothing in particular.

Which really isn't a surprise, is it?  
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):
99.9% have refrigerators, 98.7% have color TVs, 84% have air-conditionin

And they can't afford to pay their electric bill.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):
All of which were nothing compared to the Total War effort of WWII

It was if you were in it.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):
where we had hundreds of thousands of dead troops

There were 55,000 dead from Vietnam. Not a trivial amount.

And, let's be realistic a war widow from Vietnam or the Ego War experience the saw level of pain as a war widow from WW II.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 13):
I would point out to you that one of the biggest problems among the poor in the US (including children) is obesity

And I would point out that it is the cheapest food that results in obesity. Cheap food in the schools as well as the homes. Mac & Cheese is an easy example to look at.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 16):
This seems to be a theme through your posts that anyone with a high school education should be able to support a family and live a comfortable life.

It used to be a reality in the US. There was a great editorial about that (and the changes since) and the writer was focused on her father, a high school graduate in the 50s who was able to have a family, a decent (used) car, a house in a safe neighborhood and his 3 kids went to college - without a lifetime of debt.

I read that article in the Wall Street Journal in the 90s and it has stuck with me ever since.

I'd also note that when we lived in Australia it was still possible to be a Junior School Leaver, go into a trade and have a pretty nice life - with less debt that college grads!

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 16):
The western world has changed and to be able to grow we've had to lift our productivity, the easiest way to do this is through education.

Education is a critical factor and it is an investment that can pay off for society. Just as critical as supporting education is the need to have a broad scope for that education. We need electricians and plumbers just as much as we need doctors and lawyers. We need nurses just as much as we need engineers. And we need to avoid a lifetime of debt for each person who is educated past high school. That was the other great achievement of the 50's and 60's - an education without huge debt. (And that is also one of the greatest failures of today.)

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 16):
There simply isn't enough jobs for people without any skills, that pay high enough to support them. You want your $5 McDonalds but the idea of paying the guy flipping burgers $40 an hour is insane.

You don't need to pay people $40 an hour. But if you paid a workers at McDonalds a wage that is above the poverty line you might have to raise the price of a burger 5¢ or 10¢. Wow, Golly, Gee.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 16):
No the market has lead to the brightest not becoming teachers.

And it is only going to get worse. Wisconsin is just the tip of the problem for teachers, especially future teachers. Why invest big money to become a teacher only to be faced with a yo-yo like Walker.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 16):
Teaching has always been a commodity and always will be for 90% of teachers,

As long as you pay peanuts you will get monkeys. I don't' see a lot of reason for the brightest to become a teacher these days.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 16):
Intelligent students know that it is best not to work in a field where workers are commoditised

At some point a young student has to figure out what they actually want to do. It's OK to be a pilot if that is what you want. There may be some depressions, but long term airlines still have to buy very expensive planes and need to hire pilots to fly them.

Quoting QFA380 (Reply 16):
There's almost nothing we can achieve that will make us special.

Sure there is. Actually there are a lot of achievements still waiting for us. Medicine is one huge area for discovery and achievement. But, in reality, a doctor who catches a medical problem early has achieved a lot for that patient. THe Therapist who gets stroke patients up and walking is achieving a lot. Same with people who figure out better/safer/easier way to do things. The laparscopic gall bladder surgery comes to mind - understandable as I had that surgery. Went to the hospital at 11 AM and came home at 3:30 in the afternoon.

What is limited will be the achievements that get world wide achievement. The ones that get a Nobel.


User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 24, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 2417 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 20):
A refrigerator is not a luxury. Our entire food distribution system is set up on the principle that people will be able to store food for a number of days. And that takes refrigeration.
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 21):
It is a convenience - not strictly required for survival (otherwise how did people live up to the last century.

Not to go too far down a rabbit hole, but people living in cities needed to (and did) refrigerate food in the last century...in their ice boxes. Good luck getting the 'ice man' to come in 2012.

And before that people got food fresh from the farm or slaughter pen. Not really practicable in an urban nation of 300 million people.

I agree with much of the rest of your list.


User currently onlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5600 posts, RR: 15
Reply 25, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 19 hours ago) and read 2388 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 11):
That is the world of Special Olympics and, IMO, far better than institutional care an entire life.

Who the heck is talking about the Special Olympics or disabled children/adults. I'm talking about social promotion. About schools that don't allow score keeping so that the kids don't develop self-esteem issues. Spelling Bees banned. The notion in elementary schools that everyone is exceptional (it's corollary being, no one is exceptional).

I happen to believe and support programs that act to bring the disabled (mentally and physically) into the mainstream. The more into the mainstream those folks are, the less reliant they are on the government (at all levels).

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 11):
It is part of life, but then we can teach kids how to avoid some failures.

Teaching them to avoid failures is one of he jobs of the parent, but shielding them from their failures (Helicopoter Parenting) is a mistake. Sometimes kids/adults need to fail in order to properly grow.

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 14):

fr8mech, I'm in the same age bracket as you (GEN X) and I could swear they were saying the same damned thing about us! We were the disenfranchised slackers constantly looking for a pat on the back just for showing up. I remember it so clearly because I remember being pissed off about being stereotyped like that.

Don't get me wrong...I know the generation before our's bitched about us, we bitch about the generation that follows and they'll bitch about their progeny. But, I don't recall us pouring into the streets, taking over public spaces, disrupting businesses, etc. all in the name of redistributing wealth from the '1%' to the '99%'. Maybe I was too busy trying to earn a living and enter a better (higher?, cooler?, more successful?) social strata than my parents were in, to notice the protests.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 21):
It is a convenience - not strictly required for survival (otherwise how did people live up to the last century.

Dreadnought, that's not a stretch, it's ridiculous. The infra-structure that was in place before refrigeration is gone. Icemen are gone. The food supply chain is built around refrigeration at every step of the process. A fridge is not a luxury, but a beer fridge is...just barely.

[Edited 2012-06-11 06:32:21]


When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 26, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 2359 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 25):
Maybe I was too busy trying to earn a living and enter a better (higher?, cooler?, more successful?) social strata than my parents were in, to notice the protests.

Haha, yes I must have missed them also.


User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8431 posts, RR: 9
Reply 27, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2335 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 25):
About schools that don't allow score keeping so that the kids don't develop self-esteem issues.

I think part of the problem is that many schools teach kids to take the "No Child Left Behind" tests, which is the real scorekeeping for school administers these days. A pity, but that is how it is.

As far as self-esteem goes, good teachers know how to develop it, just as they know how to work kids through failures.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 25):
I happen to believe and support programs that act to bring the disabled (mentally and physically) into the mainstream.

Delighted that we really agree on something. My wife was a therapist in the school system for years working with that population. Most of those kids do well in the schools, even though they do cost a lot more per year. I remember reading that Palin's youngest cost the school system about $75,000 per year.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 25):
The more into the mainstream those folks are, the less reliant they are on the government (at all levels).

Some can be moved into community workshops and they do well there. But most of those will still need a continuing level of guidance. Another avenue for some in this population would be hospitals, who are able to used them effectively.

Realistically, there will be many who will need full care for their entire lives. Profound Downs, severe CPs are the top two. My wife once had a young girl with severe Hydrocephalus - her head was as large as her body. That is going to be lifetime care.

BTW, the push to ban abortions will increase the population of special needs kids. I won't touch the moral issues involved, but I will acknowledge the increased costs in the future.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21800 posts, RR: 55
Reply 28, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 2298 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 21):
It is a convenience - not strictly required for survival (otherwise how did people live up to the last century.

Look at what the lack of refrigeration results in. People can't store perishable food for several days anymore. This means that more will be wasted. And since these are the poor we're talking about, it's probably going to be food stamp money (i.e. taxpayer money) going to waste on things like milk, meat, etc.

In the last century, people might have kept iceboxes, or just gone to the store more often. But there aren't icemen anymore, and the presence of supermarkets has gotten rid of smaller markets. That means more time wasted making those trips to the store, more money spent on gas to get there, more money spent on the food itself (again hosing the taxpayers) due to an inability of a small store to achieve the economies of scale that a supermarket could.

And, of course, comparing how people lived years ago to how they live now is ridiculous. Things change. The old ways become obsolete, mostly because they become more expensive (and that's what you'd push on the poor?). And the standards need to adapt.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1906 posts, RR: 10
Reply 29, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2233 times:

Good on this teacher. He's a realist. School's today foster this bogus sense of 'exceptionalism' among their entire populations. It's this self-actualizing bs that creates the monster that is the entitlement of the generation I'm apart of.

Frankly, I'm embarrassed by the conduct of my peers. When I look at the situation happening in Montreal over the past few months, I'm actually concerned that that activity and mindset will bleed into Ontario, where I still have a year left of my degree.

I realize that my comments come off as rather harsh, but it angers the hell out of me that all these twenty-somethings truly believe that society actually owes them a damn thing. How can you expect hand-outs when you haven't accomplished anything? It's completely illogical, not to mention infuriating.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 27):
Most of those kids do well in the schools, even though they do cost a lot more per year.

Agreed. My high school was great for this. The special needs class was positioned in a high-traffic area of my school (we had 2,000 students) so that the special needs students would have a lot of exposure to the other students, and vice versa. There were also many programs that encouraged activities that would engage the student population with the dozen or so special needs students we had. From what I could see, everyone seemed to benefit from these.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 27):
BTW, the push to ban abortions will increase the population of special needs kids. I won't touch the moral issues involved, but I will acknowledge the increased costs in the future.

I never looked at it that way...but you make a valid point.



Flying refined.
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 30, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 22 hours ago) and read 2192 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 29):
Agreed. My high school was great for this. The special needs class was positioned in a high-traffic area of my school (we had 2,000 students) so that the special needs students would have a lot of exposure to the other students, and vice versa. There were also many programs that encouraged activities that would engage the student population with the dozen or so special needs students we had. From what I could see, everyone seemed to benefit from these.

I agree with helping kids with special needs, to the limits of their ability...but the phrase "no child left behind" grates on me like nails on a chalk board.

My wife teaches high school and much of her time is spent dealing with kids that are disruptive, don't put forth the effort etc. I don't know if they have developmental problems, bad parents or are just jerkoffs but meanwhile she has genuinely bright and previously motivated kids whose time is being completely wasted in her class.

So I'd say I'm a fan of leaving behind some kids (moving them to vocational and life-skills programs that align with their interests) if they can't or won't play ball in the college-focused programs...if that means a higher number of the kids that do care and have a chance to excel academically will be challenged. The idea of every child achieving academic success in a one-size-fits-all approach is a race to the bottom I think.


User currently onlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5600 posts, RR: 15
Reply 31, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2160 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 27):
I think part of the problem is that many schools teach kids to take the "No Child Left Behind" tests, which is the real scorekeeping for school administers these days. A pity, but that is how it is.


You're correct. Too many schools 'teach to the test' and, therefore, are unable to teach the individual. All the more reason to get the federal government out of education and allow more local control and accountability. Maybe we can fix the self-esteem issues by actually getting the kids to succeed.

Since everyone is different, the cookie cutter approach to education can't work.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 29):
I realize that my comments come off as rather harsh, but it angers the hell out of me that all these twenty-somethings truly believe that society actually owes them a damn thing. How can you expect hand-outs when you haven't accomplished anything? It's completely illogical, not to mention infuriating.


Unfortunately, it's a mindset that is instilled, almost from birth and reinforced in academia.

Several years ago, I was in college as a non-traditional student. I was friendly with a young lady that I had several classes with. We wound up graduating at the same time. I asked her if she thought she was ready for 'the real world'. She replied that she liked the world that was manufactured for her; where most things provided for her, so long as she did what she was told. She said she didn't want to leave the fantasy land of school.

At least she recognized it was a fantasy. How many enter the world thinking differently?



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21800 posts, RR: 55
Reply 32, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 17 hours ago) and read 2130 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 29):
I realize that my comments come off as rather harsh, but it angers the hell out of me that all these twenty-somethings truly believe that society actually owes them a damn thing. How can you expect hand-outs when you haven't accomplished anything? It's completely illogical, not to mention infuriating.

On the other hand, how can you expect to accomplish anything if there aren't jobs for you to get? Young people are being hurt a lot more by the recession and resulting unemployment. So you can't get any hand-outs if you don't accomplish anything (which does make sense), but you can't get an opportunity to accomplish anything. Meanwhile, you've got debt from the education that you were told (by EVERYONE, and backed up by statistics) you needed in order to make more money and be more successful, and that debt is coming due.

One could be forgiven for being a bit bitter about all that. The youth unemployment rate is almost 20%. If that were the case across all ages, you'd be seeing protests that would make the Occupy movement look tame by comparison.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1906 posts, RR: 10
Reply 33, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2106 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 32):
On the other hand, how can you expect to accomplish anything if there aren't jobs for you to get?

I'm not even going to pretend like I know what it's like to be a graduating post-secondary student in the US since I've done my formal education in Canada and to a lesser extent, Australia...but I don't believe for a second that there are no jobs.

I'm only 22 and I'm currently on a placement at my third company in as many years. I've had no trouble whatsoever finding work as a young business student. In fact, my biggest problem has been finding time for all the interviews. It's not as if I'm some brilliant Ivy-leaguer, I just spend more time refining my cover letters/resume and working on critical skills that employers look for, as opposed to marching through the streets bitching about tuition. Time is money, and I know how to spend mine effectively.

With that said, from my own observations I find very few of the protestors to be business, engineering, med, etc. majors. This actually makes sense to me. Every year, hundreds, if not thousands, of kids are admitted into each university into programs such as psychology, literature, fine arts, etc. where job prospects on the back-end are almost nil. One of the running jokes I always hear at my school is "the only job you can get with an English degree is to teach English". Kids entering university/college have an unrealistic ideal of their chosen program's career potential after graduation. So what happens when they can't land a $50,000/year job out of school with a fresh BA? They whine and complain that it's the 1%'s fault, when in fact, it's their own for not having an ounce of foresight.

Quoting Mir (Reply 32):
but you can't get an opportunity to accomplish anything

Most successful people started at the bottom. Why should any of these protesting punks be an exception? If you start at a crappy entry-level position and work your ass off you'll find yourself with a raise and/or promotion or two in no time. My entitled generation doesn't know what it means to make concessions in life. They seem to think that having to give up hope of having their dream job right out of university equates to some massive injustice. That's why we need more teachers like this guy to keep these kids grounded.

Quoting Mir (Reply 32):
Meanwhile, you've got debt from the education that you were told (by EVERYONE, and backed up by statistics) you needed in order to make more money and be more successful, and that debt is coming due.

I'm going into my fifth year of university and I have less than $10,000 of student debt (I have some friends with none!). Amazing what you can do with a little bit of hard eh?  

I think that's where my anger towards these students comes into effect. Students in Quebec have the lowest tuition in the country* yet they are the only ones protesting in the streets about how horrible it is and demanding free education. While here I am in Ontario, with some of the highest tuition in the country, and with a little bit of effort I'm doing just fine. The laziness of those students reflects poorly on everyone my age, and it's embarrassing.


*A full-time business student in Ontario pays three times more annually in tuition than a full-time business student in Quebec. Source: Statistics Canada.



Flying refined.
User currently onlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5600 posts, RR: 15
Reply 34, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2094 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 32):
On the other hand, how can you expect to accomplish anything if there aren't jobs for you to get? Young people are being hurt a lot more by the recession and resulting unemployment. So you can't get any hand-outs if you don't accomplish anything (which does make sense), but you can't get an opportunity to accomplish anything. Meanwhile, you've got debt from the education that you were told (by EVERYONE, and backed up by statistics) you needed in order to make more money and be more successful, and that debt is coming due.


Let's ask this:

How many of these kids are willing to take a job at Home Depot, Lowes, McDonalds, Walmart, Radio Shack, Target, etc. All these places are always hiring...at the bottom. All of them have programs that can lead to better opportunities within the organization. But, are these folks willing to go to work at the 'bottom' or do they think they can just step in a start running a store/division/district/area or designing bridges/buildings/shopping malls, just because they have a degree?

I'd hazard that entitlement attitude is getting in the way. Not in every case, but, I'd say in way too many cases.

Quoting Mir (Reply 32):
One could be forgiven for being a bit bitter about all that.


Bitter is one thing. I'd be bitter to if my high school counselor, the college admissions counselor, my college advisor, my placement advisor and every other swinging d**k told me all I needed to do was get my degree and I'd be making $100K at graduation, and, oh by the way, that will cost you $30K+ a year.

Being bitter is ok, but do something about it. And sleeping in a tent, peeing in the bushes, yelling slogans is not doing something about it. Take a job and make the best of what you have.

I have a dumb-ass cousin who came to the US, and lived with us, from Greece (paid for by his parents) in order to become an civil engineer. He did this in the late '70's. He received his degree, got an internship and ....quit. He didn't understand why he needed to be in the field. Why couldn't he just do the inside work like the 'older' guys? He moved back to Greece and after mooching off his parents for the next 20+ years found his true calling...he's a masseuse.

What's the cliche? If life gives you lemons, make lemonade.

I have another I heard somewhere that I like better...You can't control how many times you get knocked down, but you can control how many times you get up.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21800 posts, RR: 55
Reply 35, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2091 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 33):
I'm not even going to pretend like I know what it's like to be a graduating post-secondary student in the US since I've done my formal education in Canada

Where tuition is far less expensive than in the US. So there's a difference to start.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 33):
Every year, hundreds, if not thousands, of kids are admitted into each university into programs such as psychology, literature, fine arts, etc. where job prospects on the back-end are almost nil. One of the running jokes I always hear at my school is "the only job you can get with an English degree is to teach English". Kids entering university/college have an unrealistic ideal of their chosen program's career potential after graduation. So what happens when they can't land a $50,000/year job out of school with a fresh BA? They whine and complain that it's the 1%'s fault, when in fact, it's their own for not having an ounce of foresight.

Remember that a college education takes a while. The first group of college graduates who went into school knowing that a serious economic downturn was going on just graduated. Prior to that (in other words, people who started college in 2007 or before, and thus graduated in 2011 or before), people were saying that everything was roses, the economy was growing just fine, there were jobs aplenty waiting for graduates, etc. So it's logical that one might spend more money on an education. You can't call that lack of foresight - it's bad luck, and I've got no issue with people being pissed about it, especially if it wasn't their generation who frittered away the economy. If you want to criticize the people coming out of school now with degrees in literature and the like, that's got more merit, since they knew what was going on when they went in. But that's a relatively small percentage of the unemployed. And you do see a lower number of people going into those programs now, as you might expect.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 33):
Most successful people started at the bottom.

Which is fine. I have no problem with people starting on the bottom of the ladder. The issue is that enough people can't even get on the ladder. There just aren't enough jobs to go around at the moment.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8917 posts, RR: 24
Reply 36, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2085 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 25):
Dreadnought, that's not a stretch, it's ridiculous. The infra-structure that was in place before refrigeration is gone. Icemen are gone. The food supply chain is built around refrigeration at every step of the process. A fridge is not a luxury, but a beer fridge is...just barely.

Are you telling me that it is impossible to buy fresh produce and cook it the same day? Iceboxes weren't that common either. 100 years ago most households had no refrigeration available at all - except for winter on the windowsill.

The fact of the matter is that most of our "poor" people would qualify as being very well off in much of the rest of the world. I'm not saying they have it easy, but if you can afford luxuries like cable TV and a car, you can't complain too much.

Quoting Mir (Reply 28):
In the last century, people might have kept iceboxes, or just gone to the store more often. But there aren't icemen anymore, and the presence of supermarkets has gotten rid of smaller markets. That means more time wasted making those trips to the store, more money spent on gas to get there, more money spent on the food itself (again hosing the taxpayers) due to an inability of a small store to achieve the economies of scale that a supermarket could.

And, of course, comparing how people lived years ago to how they live now is ridiculous. Things change. The old ways become obsolete, mostly because they become more expensive (and that's what you'd push on the poor?). And the standards need to adapt.

Kinda funny how improving services, making food available for very cheap (which supermarkets do) for example, actually serves to increase our dependance on such services. You've hit on a core lesson of economics - one which liberals have never admitted to while using it at the same time.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 34):
Let's ask this:

How many of these kids are willing to take a job at Home Depot, Lowes, McDonalds, Walmart, Radio Shack, Target, etc. All these places are always hiring...at the bottom. All of them have programs that can lead to better opportunities within the organization. But, are these folks willing to go to work at the 'bottom' or do they think they can just step in a start running a store/division/district/area or designing bridges/buildings/shopping malls, just because they have a degree?

A month or two ago Sean Hannity interviewed an Occupy leader who was complaining about jobs. He offered to bring him in on his radio show and ask listeners to offer jobs for him. But he demanded an absurdly high salary and conditions, and of course walked away jobless.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3h-4fnWGv0



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently onlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5600 posts, RR: 15
Reply 37, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2061 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 36):
Are you telling me that it is impossible to buy fresh produce and cook it the same day? Iceboxes weren't that common either. 100 years ago most households had no refrigeration available at all - except for winter on the windowsill.


You're fighting a losing one here.

Can we return to the 'old times'? Sure we can. That was a time when people died from food-bourne illness at much higher rates than they do today.

Sorry Dread, based on the current infrastructure and the way our food distribution networks work, a fridge is a necessity. Don't read that as me advocating the government providing one, but to point to households that have refrigeration and claim they are not poverty stricken because of that fact is way off target.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 36):
The fact of the matter is that most of our "poor" people would qualify as being very well off in much of the rest of the world.


Poverty is relative. I compare just about nothing with other nations because our way of living and what we accept and what we expect are different.

Quoting Mir (Reply 35):
Which is fine. I have no problem with people starting on the bottom of the ladder. The issue is that enough people can't even get on the ladder. There just aren't enough jobs to go around at the moment.


I disagree. There are plenty of ladders around. Unfortunately, sometimes you have to stoop a little more than you want in order to get on one.

Indulge another anecdote: my brother (who was some kind of senior analyst/team leader thing for some firm in NJ) was laid off in 2010. He remained on unemployment, still looking for a job (so he claims) until the unemployment ran out. He then got a job working for Autozone. Is it the pay or work environment he wanted? No. But, it's a job w/benefits and application to first day of work was about 2 weeks.

The jobs are there; some of these folks need to change their expectations.

[Edited 2012-06-12 11:30:23]


When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21800 posts, RR: 55
Reply 38, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2060 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 36):
Are you telling me that it is impossible to buy fresh produce and cook it the same day?

Of course it's possible. It's just more costly, that's all. You're working multiple jobs, and you're going to have time to go to the store every day (or every other day)?

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 36):
The fact of the matter is that most of our "poor" people would qualify as being very well off in much of the rest of the world.

Probably true. But the standard of poverty should not be "there is nobody worse off in the world".

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 36):
I'm not saying they have it easy, but if you can afford luxuries like cable TV and a car, you can't complain too much.

A car is a necessity in some areas - if you want people to get jobs, they need to have the mobility to get to where the jobs are quickly. Cable TV, on the other hand, I agree is a luxury.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1906 posts, RR: 10
Reply 39, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2051 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 35):
Where tuition is far less expensive than in the US. So there's a difference to start.

...and cost of living and taxes are far more expensive in Canada. We can split hairs all day. My original point was that I don't know what it's like to be an American university student graduating and moving into the marketplace.

Quoting Mir (Reply 35):
Remember that a college education takes a while. The first group of college graduates who went into school knowing that a serious economic downturn was going on just graduated. Prior to that (in other words, people who started college in 2007 or before, and thus graduated in 2011 or before), people were saying that everything was roses, the economy was growing just fine, there were jobs aplenty waiting for graduates, etc. So it's logical that one might spend more money on an education. You can't call that lack of foresight - it's bad luck, and I've got no issue with people being pissed about it, especially if it wasn't their generation who frittered away the economy. If you want to criticize the people coming out of school now with degrees in literature and the like, that's got more merit, since they knew what was going on when they went in. But that's a relatively small percentage of the unemployed. And you do see a lower number of people going into those programs now, as you might expect.

I agree on all points. There are a segment of students who entered university/college at a very inopportune time that was nearly impossible to foresee, and many of them are suffering right now because of it. With that said, even in the best of economic conditions, some degrees just don't hold up. If you graduate high school and decide to major in world religions, you have to know that your marketability is going to be in the basement compared to engineering, med, law, business, accounting, etc. students. If you take it in stride and come out with your degree smiling because you know this is what you love and you're going to find a way to make money doing it, then kudos to you. But don't go rioting in the street six months later when you can't find a job that pays $60,000.

Quoting Mir (Reply 35):
The issue is that enough people can't even get on the ladder. There just aren't enough jobs to go around at the moment.

If these students are as desperate as they purport, then they can walk into their local McDonald's or Walmart, who as far as I'm aware are always seeking candidates. Even better, they can go up to Northern Alberta and work in the oil sands. They're always hiring AND they pay a fortune.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 36):
A month or two ago Sean Hannity interviewed an Occupy leader who was complaining about jobs. He offered to bring him in on his radio show and ask listeners to offer jobs for him. But he demanded an absurdly high salary and conditions, and of course walked away jobless.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_3h-4...nWGv0

Not a fan of Sean Hannity, but good for him on this one. That kid is a moron. How can he sit there and say with a straight face that the government should pay for everything? His knowledge of basic economics is severely lacking...



Flying refined.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20241 posts, RR: 59
Reply 40, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2044 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 36):
Are you telling me that it is impossible to buy fresh produce and cook it the same day?

When you are desperately poor... yes. When both parents have to work two jobs for pitifully poor wages, yes.

100 years ago, people got scurvy. Are you advocating that we should allow that to happen now? Have you ever seen a case of scurvy? I've seen one and only one. It's ugly.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 36):
The fact of the matter is that most of our "poor" people would qualify as being very well off in much of the rest of the world. I'm not saying they have it easy, but if you can afford luxuries like cable TV and a car, you can't complain too much.

You know, I have traveled a lot of the third world. Now, it is true that there are regions where people are literally living in mud huts (like in Sudan), but those are pretty extreme situations. Most of the poor I've seen in third-world countries have electricity, a refrigerator, and often a TV (turned on at max volume to a soccer game). They might have dirt floors and a leaky roof, yes, but they have a fridge and TV almost always, even if they're stealing the electricity for it from the grid. Even in shantytowns like Makoko, Lagos, or Rocinha, Rio de Janeiro, they have these things.

But I'm not sure where you are going with your argument: are you saying that we should lower the poverty level to the point where people can't afford refrigeration?

I can totally get behind cutting down on fraud and abuse. I have lots of families on welfare in my practice who somehow manage to drive shiny Escalades and Hummers to the office. Those sorts of things need to be stopped. But if every child is supposed to have equal opportunities, then they need nutrition, shelter, healthcare, and education. Otherwise, you are into an India-style caste society that even they are trying to abandon. That's not the vision anyone reasonable should have for America.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21800 posts, RR: 55
Reply 41, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 14 hours ago) and read 2028 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 39):
If you graduate high school and decide to major in world religions, you have to know that your marketability is going to be in the basement compared to engineering, med, law, business, accounting, etc. students.

That cuts both ways. Yes, there is less demand for those people, but there is demand. Yes, majoring in English will not give you much opportunity other than being an English teacher, but we definitely need a certain number of English teachers, and ideally they should be good English teachers. And so if you really want those jobs, and you're told that the best way to get those jobs is to get a good education in them (which both common sense and economic statistics back up), then you're going to be more willing to spend money on getting that education in order to give yourself a competitive advantage. Eventually, economics will work themselves out and people will stop spending as they realize that the cost/benefit isn't worth it. But that takes several years to work its way through the system, and we have only started to see the results of that.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 39):
If these students are as desperate as they purport, then they can walk into their local McDonald's or Walmart, who as far as I'm aware are always seeking candidates. Even better, they can go up to Northern Alberta and work in the oil sands. They're always hiring AND they pay a fortune.

Would they hire them? Overqualification is a problem - looking at it from an employer's perspective, why would you hire someone for a menial job when you know that they're only doing it because they need some money and will leave for a job in the field they're actually qualified for as soon as one opens up? Especially when there are people who don't have such qualifications who are more likely to stick around?

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8431 posts, RR: 9
Reply 42, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2026 times:

Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 30):
but the phrase "no child left behind" grates on me like nails on a chalk board.

No Child Left Behind is the BS program Bush II brought in. Basically a lot of tests that educators focus on instead of simply teaching the kids.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 31):
She said she didn't want to leave the fantasy land of school.

Not unusual. That's where we have gotten teachers.

So let her stay in school, get a Masters or PhD and teach.

BTW, we need to remember that some companies, like HP, came from that fantasy land. it happens every year.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 33):
Most successful people started at the bottom. Why should any of these protesting punks be an exception? If you start at a crappy entry-level position and work your ass off you'll find yourself with a raise and/or promotion or two in no time.

For someone with a MBA the "bottom" is a bit different than someone with a high school diploma.

And the ability of someone who worked hard to achieve a level of education and training in their chosen field, like an electrician or aircraft mechanic, doesn't necessarily have an opportunity to move that far up the ladder. The objective we should be working towards is to ensure that those people can support a family with their education, experience and hard work. Looking around at all the maintenance the airlines are sending to a 3rd world country I think you will find your belief is pretty thin these days.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 36):
Are you telling me that it is impossible to buy fresh produce and cook it the same day?

It is possible - my mother-in-law did it for years. She would leave work, go the the grocery store downtown, then catch the bus home.

First thing to spot there: she was able to catch a bus. When we lived in PER I was able to catch a bus to work & back. It took about an hour each way, but it was an established service.

Now let's look at public transport around the country.         

I've used public transport in SYD on business trips. Same with MEL & BNE.

Except for New York it simply isn't there in a meaningful way. That puts a major crimp in your assumption.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 36):
Kinda funny how improving services, making food available for very cheap (which supermarkets do) for example, actually serves to increase our dependance on such services. You've hit on a core lesson of economics - one which liberals have never admitted to while using it at the same time.

Going back to my mother-in-law. When she left work there was a green grocer, butcher and grocery store within walking distance. Just like the bus service. It wasn't some "liberal secret program" that you are dreaming about. It was simply free market forces that allowed those privately owned businesses to be close and convenient.

Of course this was in Australia so I guess you can blame the socialist for ensuring my mother-in-law earned enough to actually pay for that food.

There was also the Child Endowment - a socialist program that paid out money for each child. Sort of like the Socialist GOP $1,000 a year handout.  Wow!
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 36):
A month or two ago Sean Hannity interviewed an Occupy leader who was complaining about jobs.

Several funny things about this.

The first is that you actually listen to Hannity. You probably listed to Rush also.         

Another is that you probably take him seriously.  Wow!


User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1906 posts, RR: 10
Reply 43, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 2019 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 41):
Would they hire them? Overqualification is a problem - looking at it from an employer's perspective, why would you hire someone for a menial job when you know that they're only doing it because they need some money and will leave for a job in the field they're actually qualified for as soon as one opens up? Especially when there are people who don't have such qualifications who are more likely to stick around?

Overqualification is huge problem. But sometimes the companies are equally as desperate as the candidates.  

A perfect example: An aquaintance of mine graduated from the same business school as me with a degree in Economics about a year ago. The guy made his rounds of all the investment firms and whatnot looking for a job suitable to his degree. Well that didn't work out for him. He was desperate. Fast forward to today, and whattya know, now he's working on an oil derrick out in the middle of nowhere in Northern Alberta making twice what I do! This is all because there was such a high demand for educated individuals to work the expensive, complicated equipment in the oil sands.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 42):
Looking around at all the maintenance the airlines are sending to a 3rd world country I think you will find your belief is pretty thin these days.

Well that is a whole new can of worms. That has less to do with education as it does with unions and how much people are willing to do the job for.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 42):
Several funny things about this.

The first is that you actually listen to Hannity. You probably listed to Rush also.

Another is that you probably take him seriously.

Wait...you're taking the side of the delusional Occupy guy???   



Flying refined.
User currently onlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5600 posts, RR: 15
Reply 44, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 2004 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 42):
No Child Left Behind is the BS program Bush II brought in.


Championed by 'The Lion of Senate' and passed by massive bi-partisan support in both houses. And, junk. Education should be a local issue where local solutions can be found to local problems.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 42):
For someone with a MBA the "bottom" is a bit different than someone with a high school diploma.


Wrong. The bottom is the same for everyone. Someone with an MBA (or some other degree) has already taken steps to come off the bottom. They just need to remember, when the times get tough, where the real bottom is. And, they need to be willing to go there if they have to.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 42):
And the ability of someone who worked hard to achieve a level of education and training in their chosen field, like an electrician or aircraft mechanic, doesn't necessarily have an opportunity to move that far up the ladder. The objective we should be working towards is to ensure that those people can support a family with their education, experience and hard work.


Another can of worms. But, to cut to the chase; they chose that career field. With its advantages and disadvantages. By the way, I won't tell you what our AMT's get paid, but, it certainly commensurate with their education (no college required, roughly 2 years training), their experience and hard work.

Much like these numb-skulls that were talked into (or more disturbingly, chose) majors and classes that have no basis or use in reality, and are not really marketable. There are advantages and disadvantages to every decision, some times the bad is outweighs the good and other times the good is better. And, quite often the pros & cons are a matter of timing.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8917 posts, RR: 24
Reply 45, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1979 times:

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 43):
Wait...you're taking the side of the delusional Occupy guy???

Yes. We should have him for President.

Signed,

Ken777



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineSmittyOne From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 46, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 1971 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 45):
Yes. We should have him for President.


Lazy bastard probably refrigerates his food, too.


User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6694 posts, RR: 24
Reply 47, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1962 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 37):

The jobs are there; some of these folks need to change their expectations.

Places like Walmart, Target, McDonalds, etc will often not hire college graduates or anyone with meaningful education. They know employees like that are upwardly ambitious and not likely to stay long. These types of places prefer those with minimal education and ambition.


User currently onlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5600 posts, RR: 15
Reply 48, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 1907 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 47):
Places like Walmart, Target, McDonalds, etc will often not hire college graduates or anyone with meaningful education. They know employees like that are upwardly ambitious and not likely to stay long. These types of places prefer those with minimal education and ambition.



Broad search at Target.com:
Salaried positions/Experienced Professional/All Career Areas/All Locations
1160 jobs

Broad Search at Walmart.com
Picked several of the common 'salaried' positions (management/professional, etc)
502 jobs

McDonalds is a little more difficult to search because of the franchising, but it appeared that over 100 jobs were available as salaried corporate jobs nationwide. There were over 50 local (within 30 miles of the chosen zip code) management jobs available in this area.

I won't waste my time looking at Lowe's, Home Depot, AutoZone, Sam's, Costco, Meijer's, Kroger, Dicks, etc. All these corporations have salaried positions available, nationwide.

Now, the numbers above aren't exceptionally high when you're looking at 8-10% unemployment...but why are there any opening at all, especially salaried positions, when we have all these newly minted Bachelors' graduates and all these long term, experienced unemployed? Why aren't they taking these jobs? I think it's because these folks have an expectation. Well, they need to lower that expectation and get to work. It's an employer's market out there and the potential employees need to realize that the happy land of 95% placement, in their chosen field, they were promised in college doesn't exist right now.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6694 posts, RR: 24
Reply 49, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1906 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 48):
Now, the numbers above aren't exceptionally high when you're looking at 8-10% unemployment...but why are there any opening at all, especially salaried positions, when we have all these newly minted Bachelors' graduates and all these long term, experienced unemployed?

Most of these salaried management positions require experience...something a kid right out of college doesn't have. It's a catch-22 for many college kids at companies these days...you are overqualified for the entry level positions (cashier, stock clerk, etc), but underqualified for management positions.

You also have to consider that many of these companies post positions that don't really exist. They're just collecting resumes for some time in the future. At my company, almost half our "job openings" listed aren't real. They're just for the purpose of collecting resumes.

Finally, many of these positions are available because they have high turnover. These companies are always hiring (even in a weak economy) because they're constantly losing people.


User currently onlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5600 posts, RR: 15
Reply 50, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 1893 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 49):
Most of these salaried management positions require experience...


What about our longterm, experienced unemployed?

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 49):
but underqualified for management positions


Most of these places have a management trainee program. Not the ideal for some folks, but, it's a job.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 49):
Finally, many of these positions are available because they have high turnover. These companies are always hiring (even in a weak economy) because they're constantly losing people.


My expectation, especially in a weak economy, is that someone leaves a job, when they have another lined up.

Look, this thread isn't about jobs, it's about the expectation too many people have when they come out of school. We've (society) have done our youth a disservice by telling them everything is coming up roses. It's a disservice when we shield them from their failures. They have to learn that failure is a part of life and a part of success.

We need to prepare them and tell them that unless they are in the top 1% of their class (and maybe not even then) they shouldn't expect to work for the best firm, get the best position, get the best salary. Hell, we need to tell our high-schoolers that they may not get into the university they have their heart set on.

We need to tell them that the real world bears little resemblance to the world of academia. They need to know that results matter. They need to know that good intentions count for little (unless you're in politics).

There is no panacea, but I hope everyone can see that we need to stop babying our kids and start teaching them that the world is not fair and they will need to work for what they want and/or need. Clearly, the other way is not working.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6694 posts, RR: 24
Reply 51, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1882 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 50):
We've (society) have done our youth a disservice by telling them everything is coming up roses.

Outside of some overzealous affluent suburban parents, I don't think most kids have been raised this way, nor is there a lot of evidence to support that they have. Everyone sees a few kids like this on TV and makes a generalization that every kid must be like this. Is every kid like Snooki from Jersey Shore? Certainly not.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 50):
There is no panacea, but I hope everyone can see that we need to stop babying our kids and start teaching them that the world is not fair and they will need to work for what they want and/or need.

Except for a relatively small number, I think most already know this. McCullough (who gave this speech) probably saw the worst because his high school caters to very wealthy kids that are most likely to be out of touch with reality. However, these students don't represent even a fraction of the population.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 50):
Hell, we need to tell our high-schoolers that they may not get into the university they have their heart set on.

Again, I'm sure most are quite aware as universities send out hundreds of thousands of rejection letters each year.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21800 posts, RR: 55
Reply 52, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1860 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 50):
We've (society) have done our youth a disservice by telling them everything is coming up roses. It's a disservice when we shield them from their failures.

Which is a fair comment. Now here's what I'm curious about: if you feel that you've done the youth a disservice by giving them expectations, why are you so surprised that they're pissed when those expectations aren't met? And why do you blame them for not living in reality, when it was you that created their reality in the first place?

I hear so much vitriol about how young people are lazy, irresponsible, spoiled, etc., but I hear almost no conversation about how they got that way. It didn't happen by accident.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8917 posts, RR: 24
Reply 53, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1857 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 52):
I hear so much vitriol about how young people are lazy, irresponsible, spoiled, etc., but I hear almost no conversation about how they got that way. It didn't happen by accident.

You can put the blame on Barney the Dinosaur, and Mr. Rogers, but in the end, Kids should be intelligent enough to know that it's not all that easy. Unless you get straight A's in school without hardly trying (Still pretty rare even in the most politically correct schools), and your parents bought you every single toy you ever wanted (I wanted an F-14 fighter - I never got it), the message should be pretty clear that you don't get everything your way just because you want it.

Ironically I think that kids actually know pretty much what the score is when they are 12-13, but it is later, like when they are in their late teens/early 20s, that's when they start getting exposed to the ideas about people "owing" you respect, support, education, money etc like that Occupy was talking about on Hannity. Imagine that - he was probably smarter when he was 12 years old .



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently onlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5600 posts, RR: 15
Reply 54, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1833 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 52):
I hear so much vitriol about how young people are lazy, irresponsible, spoiled, etc., but I hear almost no conversation about how they got that way. It didn't happen by accident.


That's what this entire conversation is about. It is the schools and the parents (not necessarily in that order) that have made this happen. Oh, and don't forget the constant bombardment from various media sources that tell them the government exists to support them. And, we can't forget a sizable portion of our elected leaders that think it's just dandy to go through life on the teat.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 53):
Ironically I think that kids actually know pretty much what the score is when they are 12-13, but it is later, like when they are in their late teens/early 20s, that's when they start getting exposed to the ideas about people "owing" you respect, support, education, money etc like that Occupy was talking about on Hannity. Imagine that - he was probably smarter when he was 12 years old .


You're right, my kids (6 & almost 10) know the score because they haven't been exposed, too much, to the entitlement attitude that is pervasive in public education (and elsewhere). The wife and I will have to work double-time to keep their heads on straight. I'm also glad that most of their friend's parents are of the same mind. It'll be easier to undo damage done.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21800 posts, RR: 55
Reply 55, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 1828 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 54):
That's what this entire conversation is about.

Not really. The conversation about children being entitled is a different, though related, one from how they got that way. I'm hearing a lot of the former, not so much of the latter.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently onlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5600 posts, RR: 15
Reply 56, posted (2 years 5 months 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 1808 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 55):
I'm hearing a lot of the former, not so much of the latter.


As I've mentioned before: they got that way because the adults they are exposed to (parents, teachers, celebrities, media types, politicians, etc) keep telling them that they are special and entitled to whatever their little hearts' desire.

Well, those little hearts turn into big hearts with big appetites and they turn to others (that would be you and me) to provide those things.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
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