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Democracy Died? The End Of The United States?  
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39704 posts, RR: 75
Posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3521 times:

According to this man it is;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEwXa197uBU

I know last week's special recall election in Wisconsin gained lots of attention.
Governor Scott Walker received a lot of flack for trying to save the state few dollars and re-negotiate their health-care contracts.
What does this all mean in the end?
Will the man in the video have to pay an extra $10 as a co-pay to have his teeth cleaned?
Was it the end of democracy or democracy in action?

If this is a sign of things to come, I'd really hate to be in Grant Park of Chicago come November...

[Edited 2012-06-15 13:01:08]


Bring back the Concorde
63 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3001 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3477 times:

Democracy died the day politicians started selling out to corporations and work to protect their interests as opposed to those of the people who elected them.


"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39704 posts, RR: 75
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3472 times:

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 1):
Democracy died the day politicians started selling out to corporations and work to protect their interests as opposed to those of the people who elected them.

That dates back to 1776.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19415 posts, RR: 58
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3472 times:

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 1):
Democracy died the day politicians started selling out to corporations and work to protect their interests as opposed to those of the people who elected them.

The biggest blow to Democracy was Citizens United. Until that is gone, this is a corporate autocracy.


User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3429 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 1):
Democracy died the day politicians started selling out to corporations and work to protect their interests as opposed to those of the people who elected them.

The biggest blow to Democracy was Citizens United. Until that is gone, this is a corporate autocracy.

Which is the backstory on the new Showcase series "Continuum". In 2077 the USA has a "corporate democracy" in which rights currently guaranteed in your constitution have been suspended, and a total police state imposed. A group of "terrorists" are caught and sentenced to death, but one guy (obviously very clever !) develops a one-way time travel device in prison (or maybe he had it anyway, that's not clear). The device creates a vortex and sends the terrorists and a policewoman back to 2012 (in Vancouver, Canada, where the show is filmed).

As the policewoman gets more familiar with the terrorist as she tracks them, it becomes clear the agenda of the terrorists is to restore representative democracy.

The show has some promise, it's on Sunday evenings here in Canada.

But overall I tend to agree that Big Business is pretty much getting everything it wants and devil take the hindmost for the rest of us. It's true up here as well, particularly since the arrival of our Conservative government. More laws passed to effect criminal punishment for various things, more prisons being built -- despite the fact that crime has been dropping for a generation, more documents and government processes made "Secret", so transparency is lost, anti state health care, which works overall pretty well up here, anti science, yadda yadda. Christ, even the census is voluntary now, so what good is it ?



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5424 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3417 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
Citizens United.

Yeah, I still not understand how, in any way, a tax ID number implies that something is a "person" with all the protections that go with that designation. It's crazy, it is very bad for the nation.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19415 posts, RR: 58
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3409 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 5):
Yeah, I still not understand how, in any way, a tax ID number implies that something is a "person" with all the protections that go with that designation.

Frankly, I suspect that someone bribed the justices. Now it will take a Constitutional amendment and that will take something resembling an armed revolution.


User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7226 posts, RR: 17
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3401 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 2):
That dates back to 1776.

  

Democracy died when the greeks decided to raid buildings and assume mob mentality.

Same with the Wisconsin unions.



One of the FB admins for PHX Spotters. "Zach the Expat!"
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3397 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 5):
Yeah, I still not understand how, in any way, a tax ID number implies that something is a "person" with all the protections that go with that designation. It's crazy, it is very bad for the nation.

But a corporation is a person, legally. It has rights, protections, and obligations, although I grant you that the obligations are being whittled away.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
Frankly, I suspect that someone bribed the justices. Now it will take a Constitutional amendment and that will take something resembling an armed revolution.

Why an amendment ? I thought CU was merely an act of Congress. Surely they can simply repeal the law ?



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1336 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3395 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 5):
Yeah, I still not understand how, in any way, a tax ID number implies that something is a "person" with all the protections that go with that designation.

It's an interpretation the Supreme Court made of the Fourteenth Amendment. From ~1880....

The more things change the more they remain the same, I guess. Of course, they didn't have television, political consultants, bogus telephone polls, or "super PACs" back then. Also the deranged billionaires bought concert halls instead of election campaigns. Possibly


User currently offlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1336 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3385 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 8):

Why an amendment ? I thought CU was merely an act of Congress. Surely they can simply repeal the law ?

It was a Supreme Court decision, challenging an act of Congress. They would need to write a new law that adheres to the SCOTUS' interpretation of "free speech." Which is about as likely as me winning the 24 Hours of Le Mans tomorrow, all by myself, with a rental car.


User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5424 posts, RR: 8
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3362 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 8):
But a corporation is a person, legally. It has rights, protections, and obligations, although I grant you that the obligations are being whittled away.

Can a corporation vote? (And I am not talking about what they currently buy in Congress.) Can I own a piece of a person? How come there are people that are also corporations?

Simply put, a corporation is NOT a person as in a human individual, you know, a real person.

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 9):
It's an interpretation the Supreme Court made of the Fourteenth Amendment. From ~1880....

Yes, and that still does not make it a good interpretation.

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 9):
The more things change the more they remain the same, I guess. Of course, they didn't have television, political consultants, bogus telephone polls, or "super PACs" back then. Also the deranged billionaires bought concert halls instead of election campaigns. Possibly

No, things were pretty much the same back then too.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3053 posts, RR: 4
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3357 times:

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 1):
Democracy died the day politicians started selling out to corporations and work to protect their interests as opposed to those of the people who elected them.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
The biggest blow to Democracy was Citizens United. Until that is gone, this is a corporate autocracy.

I have to partially disagree with both of you on that one.While corporations can have they're share of the blame game I also will blame lawyers representing every sector of life from political,social,etc,etc.... Every level of courts,the lawyers and the SCOTUS is the "real" new power to me from tying up laws for years to outrages class action awards in which corporations move out and cost workers lower wages or jobs.

Greedy lawyers and the courts have changed everything and are the culprit to me.It was once asked on a tread if you we're a dictator of the US what you would change?I would reform the court awards only up to1 million non-death and 3 million death.



Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlineNewark727 From United States of America, joined Dec 2009, 1336 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3344 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 11):
Yes, and that still does not make it a good interpretation.

Not saying it's good. In fact the era in which the decision was made is in itself a reason not to trust it- the Supreme Court back then was as pro-corporate as... well, as it is right now.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39704 posts, RR: 75
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 14 hours ago) and read 3329 times:

Enough of the bickering folks.
My question is what will this matter to the man in the video?
Will he lose his right to vote or will he just have to pay an extra $5 co-pay for a physical or to get his teeth cleaned?



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlinePSA53 From United States of America, joined Aug 2003, 3053 posts, RR: 4
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3294 times:

Quoting Superfly (Thread starter):
democracy in action



   People voted.Majority spoke.The man is an alarmist over reactionary crybaby.



Tuesday's Off! Do not disturb.
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7138 posts, RR: 3
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3294 times:



User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19415 posts, RR: 58
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3251 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 8):
But a corporation is a person, legally. It has rights, protections, and obligations, although I grant you that the obligations are being whittled away.

No, it is an organization. It has limited "rights." It cannot be executed, put in jail, held accountable for criminal acts, get married.

People cannot merge, be dissolved, be spontaneously created out of nothing, have their personal liability limited, etc.

Quoting PSA53 (Reply 15):
People voted.Majority spoke.The man is an alarmist over reactionary crybaby.

Now on that I agree. The only issue is that Walker got most of his funding from out-of-state from wealthy donors. We need to get private money out of campaigns permanently. All campaigns need to be publicly funded on a fixed budget.


User currently offlinedfwrevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 962 posts, RR: 51
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3199 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
No, it is an organization. It has limited "rights."

And one of those rights is freedom of political speech. That is a perfectly logical interpretation of the First Amendment, which prohibits Congress from interfering with the right of citizens to assemble and petition the government. Constitutional rights should not be fortified if the method of assembly happens to be a corporation or union.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
Until that is gone, this is a corporate autocracy.

Oh bull. Liberals prove daily that they are cynical warts who have no faith in the independence of their fellow citizens, hence the need for government to micromanage all aspects of life including campaign finance.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
We need to get private money out of campaigns permanently. All campaigns need to be publicly funded on a fixed budget.

In other words, the government will have strict control for who and how people run for office. That's some democracy. What could possibly go wrong?  


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19415 posts, RR: 58
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3188 times:

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 18):
In other words, the government will have strict control for who and how people run for office. That's some democracy. What could possibly go wrong?

That's how it is done in a lot of countries. When only the wealthy control the outcome of elections, that is not democracy.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 18):
And one of those rights is freedom of political speech.

Speech and money are two very different things.

You will sing a very different song when the telecoms pass a law mandating every American to own a cell phone. Don't think it can't happen.


User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 13 hours ago) and read 3186 times:

Quoting Newark727 (Reply 10):
It was a Supreme Court decision, challenging an act of Congress. They would need to write a new law that adheres to the SCOTUS' interpretation of "free speech." Which is about as likely as me winning the 24 Hours of Le Mans tomorrow, all by myself, with a rental car.

OK, thanks for the clarification. Could a future SCOTUS overturn this decision ?

Quoting tugger (Reply 11):
Can a corporation vote? (And I am not talking about what they currently buy in Congress.) Can I own a piece of a person? How come there are people that are also corporations?

Simply put, a corporation is NOT a person as in a human individual, you know, a real person.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
No, it is an organization. It has limited "rights." It cannot be executed, put in jail, held accountable for criminal acts, get married.

People cannot merge, be dissolved, be spontaneously created out of nothing, have their personal liability limited, etc.

Everybody take a valium. Corporations are required to pay taxes (unless they have a shitload of really good lawyers), have rights and protections, can be libelled or defames (and can respond to that in court), can own real property, yadda yadda.

Of course a person can't be divided or merged (absenting marriage and divorce, I suppose), but in many respects a corporation is treated legally the same way as a person is. And so it says in my 1st year law text.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5424 posts, RR: 8
Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3157 times:

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 18):
Oh bull. Liberals prove daily that they are cynical warts who have no faith in the independence of their fellow citizens,

Yeah, that is bull. Anytime anyone reduces something down so far and applies to an entire group that has no true definitive definition, it is bull. You must be a Liberal.... why else you you make the statement of a "cynical wart"?

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 19):
Speech and money are two very different things.

  

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 20):
Corporations are required to pay taxes (unless they have a shitload of really good lawyers), have rights and protections, can be libelled or defames (and can respond to that in court), can own real property, yadda yadda.

Of course a person can't be divided or merged (absenting marriage and divorce, I suppose), but in many respects a corporation is treated legally the same way as a person is. And so it says in my 1st year law text.

Corporations cannot vote and their speech regarding/affecting votes should be severely curtailed. If they need "speech" then there are millions of people that work for corporations that will be happy to speak for them as their interests intersect. The corporations would lose no real rights to speech. Funny how that works, people may actually be able to speak....

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineconnies4ever From Canada, joined Feb 2006, 4066 posts, RR: 13
Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3129 times:

Quoting tugger (Reply 21):
Corporations cannot vote and their speech regarding/affecting votes should be severely curtailed

I believe a recent SCOTUS ruling actually amplified corporations right to speak. Might not be desirable, but I think that's the reality.

Quoting tugger (Reply 21):
If they need "speech" then there are millions of people that work for corporations that will be happy to speak for them as their interests intersect. The corporations would lose no real rights to speech. Funny how that works, people may actually be able to speak....

It's called advertising. Various corporate associations are even now trying to mold your opinion regarding the upcoming election. Same here. Again, might not be the right way to go, but that's the reality.



Nostalgia isn't what it used to be.
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19415 posts, RR: 58
Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3126 times:

Quoting connies4ever (Reply 20):
Of course a person can't be divided or merged (absenting marriage and divorce, I suppose), but in many respects a corporation is treated legally the same way as a person is. And so it says in my 1st year law text.

Which does not make them persons. It gives them a limited set of rights. Do they get a vote? Can they be imprisoned for crimes? No. so they are not people.


User currently offlineEricR From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1900 posts, RR: 1
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 12 hours ago) and read 3098 times:

Quoting einsteinboricua (Reply 1):
Democracy died the day politicians started selling out to corporations and work to protect their interests as opposed to those of the people who elected them.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 3):
Until that is gone, this is a corporate autocracy.



I was just thinking about this the other day. Fast forward 10 years from now, and corporations could up end with much more influence than they even have today. With the vast amounts of government debt and bureaucratic gridlock, the government will have to increasingly move more control over to public corporations. The space program is one recent example. The government can no longer fund it and our hopes for space exploration now rest more on corporations.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 14):
My question is what will this matter to the man in the video?
Will he lose his right to vote or will he just have to pay an extra $5 co-pay for a physical or to get his teeth cleaned?


Sounds like he is over dramatizing the situation. Too many union employees believe the gloom and doom scenario portrayed by unions. They try to paint a picture of life without union representation as armageddon.


25 connies4ever : My last comment on this topic: You can be sure they would like one. And some corporations probably have or are examining that idea. Corporations can b
26 tugger : I do understand but it is not a good situation. The laws governing this needs to be changed however the "person" with the most money and the best "sp
27 einsteinboricua : Ah, but some lobby for them to have huge tax breaks. What about Joe Average? Where is his tax break? BTW, freedom of speech for a corporation...isn't
28 dfwrevolution : So how did Jerry Brown beat Meg Whitman, who outspent him significantly? Citizens United does not allow unlimited corporate spending in elections. Di
29 Dreadnought : People in this thread keep talking about corporations. What is a corporation (or company, business, union etc)? It is a voluntary association of actu
30 DocLightning : Obamacare has not been decided yet. The same Supreme Court will not exist in twenty years. Purchase mandates have already been signed into law; they
31 seb146 : It is. It is easier for a group to negotiate with government that an individual to negotiate with government. And, yes, it will cost the individual m
32 Maverick623 : As far as Social Security: it is a government run program. You're only subsidizing roads if you have a car and put fuel into it. But you're not requi
33 Post contains images Superfly : Amen! Not to mention, no one complained when Obama received HUGE contributions from Goldman Sach, JP Morgan Chase, Time Warner, CitiGroup, Google, Mo
34 nwaesc : ^This^ ??? So fighting for the right to peaceably assemble and for the redress of grievances (no pun intended) are indicative of a mob mentality? Wha
35 einsteinboricua : I'm guessing that the Boston Tea Party was also a blow to democracy. Darn those who were against the British at the time.
36 JetBlueGuy2006 : I don't normally agree with a lot of what you say, but I think this is where the problems are. I have no problem with companies pay for ads, but they
37 EricR : Well, we'll have to disagree here. Don't you find it ironic that those industries with the highest levels of union representation are those that have
38 Post contains links Dreadnought : We are indeed at a tipping point. The United States is no longer a nation of laws. http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0612/77486.html Personally I f
39 PHX787 : Um, there was no democracy then.
40 Post contains images Superfly : Someone should show this article to the guy crying in the video.
41 Pyrex : Come on, not this old canard again... the fact is, corporations have always been allowed to give as much money as they wanted to politicians. All the
42 2707200X : I an going to he honest here, Conservatives in leadership are trying to stifle American democracy, look at Florida with all the voter purges being mad
43 RedAirForce : The only threat to democracy in the United States is when short term thinking people start talking about limiting free speech and expression. Once we
44 dfwrevolution : Twenty years from now, the precedent established in the PPACA case will determine whether it is Constitutional to mandate the purchase of a private s
45 connies4ever : In the linked article, which I assume you read (fair use quote): “If the president says we’re not going to enforce the law, there’s really noth
46 dfwrevolution : Obama was a constitutional law professor and his administration has suffered repeated blows and challenges regarding the constitutionality of his adm
47 Post contains links windy95 : Rep. Steve King to sue Obama admin over amnesty order http://www.washingtontimes.com/blog/...steve-king-sue-obama-admin-over-a/
48 Dreadnought : Typical leftist thinking. The Constitution grants the EXCLUSIVE power to make laws to Congress. It vests the power to execute the instructions of Con
49 connies4ever : Clearly you're never going to win them all, that's for sure. And, based on our own biases, we only ever find what we're looking for. It's as true in
50 redflyer : Sure it can: Executed? Not per se, but the government can certainly put a corporation out of business if its conduct is egregious enough. Put in jail
51 windy95 : But in this case he is actually creating a law. Not deciding how to enforce it. Immigration and making laws are the powers of congress. The fact that
52 Confuscius : Why worry? The world will end in six months.
53 connies4ever : Not clear to these eyes, but then living north of the border has obviously blurred my vision. Must be our Medicare. But glad I'm here, despite Harper
54 PHX787 : Actually science proved that the mayan calendar has another like 300 years lol
55 windy95 : He is creating something where there is nothing. And giving a benefit of a work visa to boot. That is creating something not executing the law that i
56 Post contains images connies4ever : Must be the extended warranty. Arguing semantics here at this point. Not implementing something but rather deferring temporarily is not creating some
57 Superfly : Someone better tell the weeping man in the video. Can anyone answer my question. How will this man's life be affected by the new rules set by governo
58 slider : I think we’ll agree to disagree about this. I don’t care for the money in campaigns, but don’t have a philosophical problem with it. When the F
59 Post contains images Dreadnought : I don't know about that. This year's presidential race is expected to cost $4 BILLION. Like I said, if Boeing wants to spend $50 million on adds that
60 Post contains links Superfly : ***Update*** The crying man in the video resurfaced to continue to whine about the corporate spending on 'the other side'. The crying man completely l
61 Post contains images einsteinboricua : You guys believe in the calendar but not in their gods...?? That's like believing in the Bible but not in God... For once, I actually agree with you,
62 starrion : The accounting firm Arthur Anderson got executed in the United States. They lost the right to do accounting for US firms and had to go out of busines
63 windy95 : Thanks for the good laugh this morning. When confronted with facts his looses his marbles.
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