HOONS90 From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2668 posts, RR: 54 Posted (11 months 1 week 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3820 times:
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Let's say you went shopping at H&M (or Forever 21, or Nordstrom, etc.) and you bought a few shirts, a pair of jeans and a bundle of socks. You check out, and as you get to your car, you decide to check the receipt and realize that the cashier forgot to scan the bundle of socks that were selling for $10.
Would you go back and honestly return it, or would you just forget about it? What if it was a cheaper/pricier item? Bear in mind that you only found out after you have left the store.
Would you be afraid of being accused of shoplifting and that you're just returning it because you feel guilty?
Would returning it actually get the cashier in trouble? Remember the item wasn't scanned, so there would be no record of it on the computer.
What would you do if you noticed it while you were still checking out?
The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
Jetsgo From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 2964 posts, RR: 5 Reply 4, posted (11 months 1 week 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3757 times:
A few yeas ago I bought a 49ers jacket at JC Penny. On the rack, it said something like $80, however it must have been tagged wrong because I only spent $10 and change... and it certainly wasn't a $10 jacket. I kept my mouth shut, thanked the lady, and left. No regret, no feeling of dishonesty. Mistakes happen, and it just so happens they made one.
AR385 From Mexico, joined Nov 2003, 4844 posts, RR: 27 Reply 8, posted (11 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3729 times:
I would not be afraid of returning for being accused of shoplifting. Nor would I feel guilty. I would return it because I believe in Karma.
That said, I would return it if I found out about it in the Parking lot. If to return it I would have to drive for 30mins. in traffic, after wok and tired, forget it. As Ken77 said, mistakes happen.
CompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 870 posts, RR: 0 Reply 12, posted (11 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3688 times:
While it's unlikely the store will track you down, the morally & ethically right thing to do is to pay for the merchandise -- which you were planning to do anyway, right?
Quoting Jetsgo (Reply 4): A few yeas ago I bought a 49ers jacket at JC Penny. On the rack, it said something like $80, however it must have been tagged wrong because I only spent $10 and change... and it certainly wasn't a $10 jacket. I kept my mouth shut, thanked the lady, and left. No regret, no feeling of dishonesty. Mistakes happen, and it just so happens they made one.
Wow, what a cheapskate. No wonder you don't feel bad about pocketing that dollar or two you were suppose to give the valet...
dragon-wings From United States of America, joined Apr 2001, 3920 posts, RR: 0 Reply 13, posted (11 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3656 times:
It has happened to me before. I did not return it and I do not feel guilty for not returing it.
aloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8357 posts, RR: 47 Reply 14, posted (11 months 1 week 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 3638 times:
I was recently at a restaurant where the waitress wasn't up to the job. She was friendly and the food was good, but the needed three attempts to get the check right - and every time it was me who corrected her.
But a clothes shop is a different animal altogether. I imagine that you'd be accused of shoplifting faster than you can think "I wish I hadn't..."
Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 19708 posts, RR: 56 Reply 15, posted (11 months 1 week 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3611 times:
If I noticed it while I was still in the store, I'd definitely make sure I was charged properly for it. I'd probably do the same thing if I noticed it just after I had left.
But if it was after I got home, I probably wouldn't, unless it was with a store I had a relationship with. The store doesn't know me, the cashier probably won't recognize me (if it's the same cashier at all), they have no record of the transaction - it's not worth the hassle. But I wouldn't keep the item either - I'd donate it to charity.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
AF1624 From France, joined Jul 2006, 572 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (11 months 1 week 22 hours ago) and read 3524 times:
Short answer: no.
This doesn't mean I would steal anything. It just means that if the guy didn't scan it, it's his fault, a.k.a it's the shop's fault. Basically they're giving it to me for free.
StarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3222 posts, RR: 9 Reply 18, posted (11 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 3470 times:
Quoting HOONS90 (Thread starter): Would you go back and honestly return it, or would you just forget about it? What if it was a cheaper/pricier item? Bear in mind that you only found out after you have left the store.
For socks maybe, it probably depends how I feel about the store in question (ie, their customer service).
A few years ago I was sent out to get a lot of florescent light bulbs at the Home Depot and I was told to get about 30 and the boxes came in 30 (15 pack of 2 for that length). I grabbed a full box and the barcode on the box matched the one on the 2 packs inside and she charge me something like $2.65 for 30 bulbs. I did go back and tell them that it was a mistake and paid the difference.
Quoting HOONS90 (Thread starter): Would returning it actually get the cashier in trouble? Remember the item wasn't scanned, so there would be no record of it on the computer.
Possibly depending on management but these things happen and a barcode reader can just plain suck sometimes. If there was a large queue of people behind you she might not have had the time to enter the item manually. If you go back in and try to defend the person I don't think they will get in any big trouble. Retailers account for this kind of thing all the time.
Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 11): Nothing 'beeped' when you left the store?
They wouldn't in their right mind spend the money putting those security tags on socks, those things are not cheap.
AirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2091 posts, RR: 23 Reply 19, posted (11 months 1 week 20 hours ago) and read 3463 times:
LOL my sister and I once went to a cafe in the middle of the city, had a cup of hot chocolate each and a piece of cake, and we were talking a lot about nothing, and accidentally left without paying. They didn't realize this in the cafe and we didn't realize until about 10 minutes after we left.. so we returned and paid but I honestly don't think they would have found out if we hadn't returned as they seemed surprised about it when we returned to pay. Very embarassing moment when we realized that we had left without paying..
For example in a supermarket, if the cashier forgets to scan an item but I notice this, I would tell him or her to remember to scan it. If I didn't notice until after I have left the supermarket, then I won't go back and inform them.
photoshooter From Belgium, joined Feb 2010, 353 posts, RR: 20 Reply 20, posted (11 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 3441 times:
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Easy one Hoons... Leave and spend the $10 on something else. I never experienced this, well I might have but I (almost) never check the receipt which is very stupid, I know.
Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 3): Some people have a strong aversion for dishonesty and feel guilt more easily than others, even if it's over a small thing.
This world is getting too big to feel guilty for the slightest thing. 200 years ago, those $10 could make a difference for an independent seller who needed the $10 for paying the bills and feeding his family. The companies you are talking about (H&M) don't care about $10 any longer. So no reason to feel guilty about it.
Niek
'A lie gets halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.' - Winston Churchill
This doesn't mean I would steal anything. It just means that if the guy didn't scan it, it's his fault, a.k.a it's the shop's fault. Basically they're giving it to me for free.
Receiving fairness tends to skew others to treat people fairly as well.
I appreciate being treated with fairness and some measure of generousness, and that works really well only if I'm ready to reciprocate.
windy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2556 posts, RR: 5 Reply 22, posted (11 months 1 week 19 hours ago) and read 3421 times:
Quoting HOONS90 (Thread starter): Would you go back and honestly return it, or would you just forget about it? What if it was a cheaper/pricier item? Bear in mind that you only found out after you have left the store.
If they double charged you on something would you go back?
starbuk7 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 591 posts, RR: 5 Reply 23, posted (11 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 3412 times:
When I am making purchases as these I watch every item scanned to verify the price on the display matches the price listed on the tag when purchasing since the tags are not always right. So usually in the store I know if everything was scanned or not.
fr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 4258 posts, RR: 12 Reply 24, posted (11 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 3389 times:
I'll admit, that when I was younger, there's a high probability that I would have walked away. But, now that I have children, and a little more wisdom and experience and knowledge, I absolutely would return to the store and pay for the item; whether the kids are with me or not.
Integrity is doing the right thing even if nobody is looking.
More often, what happens to me, when I check out at the grocery store, I'll overlook something in the cart. When I find the item, as I'm loading the car, I will always go back in and pay for the item.
Quoting photoshooter (Reply 20): This world is getting too big to feel guilty for the slightest thing. 200 years ago, those $10 could make a difference for an independent seller who needed the $10 for paying the bills and feeding his family. The companies you are talking about (H&M) don't care about $10 any longer. So no reason to feel guilty about it.
That is rationalization and a poor excuse for theft (or conversion).
Quoting windy95 (Reply 22): If they double charged you on something would you go back?
dl021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11433 posts, RR: 81 Reply 25, posted (11 months 1 week 18 hours ago) and read 3485 times:
Basically you're asking if you should or shouldn't steal? Seriously? By living in this society where we have agreed to ot steal from ach other by societal compact, whether or ot we lock up or remember to set alarms, etc....by the act of walking into the store you have agreed to purchase what they are offering.....by taking advantage of an error on their part you are stealing from them in contravention of our societal compacts, both written and unwritten.
Plus, if you do that then you're indicating that your integrity has very low value to you and that you would be a douchebag.
I'm certain you would be the guy who points out to them the error and pays for the article because you can't be a buddy of Larry/Superfly and still be a douchebag!
HOONS90 From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2668 posts, RR: 54 Reply 26, posted (11 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 3465 times:
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Quoting windy95 (Reply 22): If they double charged you on something would you go back?
Depends. If I noticed, let's say, a $10 overcharge on an item after I got back home from a shopping trip in Buffalo (which is a 1.5hr drive away), I'd probably just forget about it.
Quoting dl021 (Reply 25): Basically you're asking if you should or shouldn't steal? Seriously?
I would think that shoplifting would be a different thing altogether, because in that case, there's a 'mens rea' involved.
Quoting dl021 (Reply 25): I'm certain you would be the guy who points out to them the error and pays for the article.
When I notice at check-out or shortly thereafter, I would point it out for sure. If I notice after I get home from a shopping trip far away, it would become a dilemma especially if it would cost more to return the item and if there's a possibility of opening up a can of worms.
The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
aloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8357 posts, RR: 47 Reply 27, posted (11 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 3448 times:
Quoting dl021 (Reply 25): by taking advantage of an error on their part you are stealing from them
No.
It would only be stealing if it was premeditated. It wasn't, so nobody stole a thing in this case.
Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 26): if there's a possibility of opening up a can of worms.
Just imagine the trouble in store for the cashier. You may end up with an even heavier conscience if someone gets reprimanded or loses his/her job over this. In my earlier example:
Quoting aloges (Reply 14): I was recently at a restaurant where the waitress wasn't up to the job. She was friendly and the food was good, but the needed three attempts to get the check right - and every time it was me who corrected her.
there wasn't any risk of that, because the only one aware of the problem was the waitress, but if you went to the shop and requested to talk to someone about the unscanned item, they'd probably contact a manager. Ouch.
Additionally, there's the previously mentioned risk of the shoplifting accusation. If the manager decides that you're just a shoplifter with a heavy conscience, you'll have a hard time convincing the police that you're not.
Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
fr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 4258 posts, RR: 12 Reply 28, posted (11 months 1 week 17 hours ago) and read 3439 times:
Quoting aloges (Reply 27): It would only be stealing if it was premeditated. It wasn't, so nobody stole a thing in this case.
Once you become aware of the problem, and you do nothing, you are stealing. Imagine the bank makes an error in your favor. You are aware of the error and you spend the money. The bank finds the error and demands their money bank, you don't have enough. You will be prosecuted and probably go to jail.
Quoting aloges (Reply 27): You may end up with an even heavier conscience if someone gets reprimanded or loses his/her job over this. In my earlier example:
That is really not a concern, at least for me. If someone makes a mistake that is costing the employer money, they should be reprimanded.
SW733 From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 6072 posts, RR: 10 Reply 29, posted (11 months 1 week 16 hours ago) and read 3393 times:
I think it might depend. If it was a small, local shop, I probably would...if it were a big chain like the ones you mention, probably not. They have plenty of money and would never notice it's gone.
aloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8357 posts, RR: 47 Reply 30, posted (11 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 3380 times:
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 28): Once you become aware of the problem, and you do nothing, you are stealing. Imagine the bank makes an error in your favor. You are aware of the error and you spend the money. The bank finds the error and demands their money bank, you don't have enough. You will be prosecuted and probably go to jail.
I'm sure that's written somewhere in the fine print of the contract I have with my bank - if there's any contract agreed upon by entering the store which involves a duty to return unscanned items, it does of course change the picture.
Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
tugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 4631 posts, RR: 7 Reply 31, posted (11 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 3367 times:
Quoting HOONS90 (Thread starter): Let's say you went shopping at H&M (or Forever 21, or Nordstrom, etc.) and you bought a few shirts, a pair of jeans and a bundle of socks. You check out, and as you get to your car, you decide to check the receipt and realize that the cashier forgot to scan the bundle of socks that were selling for $10.
Would you go back and honestly return it, or would you just forget about it? What if it was a cheaper/pricier item? Bear in mind that you only found out after you have left the store.
Would you be afraid of being accused of shoplifting and that you're just returning it because you feel guilty?
Would returning it actually get the cashier in trouble? Remember the item wasn't scanned, so there would be no record of it on the computer.
What would you do if you noticed it while you were still checking out?
Yes, I would go back and return it to pay for it. I was expecting to buy it it in the first place, why would I not pay for it? I really do apply the "golden rule" and "do unto others as I would have them do unto me".
I would not in any way be afraid of being accused of shoplifting.
It may or may not get the cashier in trouble. It really depends on the cashier and if they have had it happen to them before and how often. That is not my problem.
I have noticed that things were missed or mis-priced during check-out and brought it to the cashiers attention. I will not pay more than I expected just as I will pay for what I expected to buy.
I have given extra change back to the cashier when it has happened (yes, even walked back into the store to do so). I have informed the waiter/waitress if an item is left off my bill. I tell managers if service is excellent (or lousy). I try to live to my expectations.
Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
fr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 4258 posts, RR: 12 Reply 32, posted (11 months 1 week 15 hours ago) and read 3335 times:
Quoting aloges (Reply 30): I'm sure that's written somewhere in the fine print of the contract I have with my bank - if there's any contract agreed upon by entering the store which involves a duty to return unscanned items, it does of course change the picture.
aloges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8357 posts, RR: 47 Reply 33, posted (11 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 3310 times:
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 32): I'd argue that you have an implied-in-fact contract with the retailer.
The major difference is that you do notice extra money in your bank account pretty much immediately. But lots of people don't ever look at their receipts for small purchases, so I remain wondering how an implied contract for a trivial transaction could amount to the same importance as a written and signed contract for a bank account.
Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
fr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 4258 posts, RR: 12 Reply 34, posted (11 months 1 week 14 hours ago) and read 3293 times:
Quoting aloges (Reply 33): The major difference is that you do notice extra money in your bank account pretty much immediately. But lots of people don't ever look at their receipts for small purchases, so I remain wondering how an implied contract for a trivial transaction could amount to the same importance as a written and signed contract for a bank account.
I didn't say it carried the same importance.
I was just relating, that in my opinion, as soon as you become aware that you have walked out of a business without paying for a product, you are violating the contract, and are therefore, stealing the product.
CompensateMe From United States of America, joined Jan 2009, 870 posts, RR: 0 Reply 35, posted (11 months 1 week 9 hours ago) and read 3229 times:
Quoting aloges (Reply 33): The major difference is that you do notice extra money in your bank account pretty much immediately. But lots of people don't ever look at their receipts for small purchases, so I remain wondering how an implied contract for a trivial transaction could amount to the same importance as a written and signed contract for a bank account.
Consider a scenario involving consumers using self-checkouts at Walmart:
- one consumer intendeds on purchasing two doughnuts, but rings up only one.
- the next consumer purchases an iPad, but rings it up as a dozen doughnuts.
In both scenarios, the self-checkout is unlikely to "catch" the error; neither was the single employee attending six-eight lanes simultaneously.
The first consumer stole goods with a retail value of approximately 59c, the second consumer stole goods with a retail value of approximately $499. While 59c is trivial, and the store likely wouldn't bother contacting the police, stealing is stealing, wrong is wrong, and the value doesn't justify the actions.
The OP has a moral, ethical and legal responsibility to contact the store, notify them of the error and set-up payment arrangements -- trivial or not. If he fails to do so & the store does indeed catch its error, will it pursue payment from him? Almost unquestionably no. In fact, if the OP contacts the store, they'll likely thank him for his honestly and decline payment. Yet that does not justify doing nothing while rationalizing "gee, I bet I've been overcharged elsewhere in the past but did not catch the mistake so this makes up for it," even though it's what most people would do. Especially our cheapskate valet friend .
MD-90 From United States of America, joined Jan 2000, 8418 posts, RR: 13 Reply 36, posted (11 months 1 week 7 hours ago) and read 3181 times:
Quoting HOONS90 (Reply 26): Depends. If I noticed, let's say, a $10 overcharge on an item after I got back home from a shopping trip in Buffalo (which is a 1.5hr drive away), I'd probably just forget about it.
In a case like that you could always call the store and ask them to send you a bill. If they won't then I'd consider the matter settled.
mandala499 From Indonesia, joined Aug 2001, 6180 posts, RR: 74 Reply 37, posted (11 months 1 week 1 hour ago) and read 3108 times:
I'd take it back if I'm still somewhere nearby...
I got a place where a few times I got back to pay for some unchecked items... They remembered. I get promotional freebies when I go there now
In certain cafes, I did correct an undercharge... since then, they never had any problems with me correcting an overcharge... and also, free coffee from them once in a while is nice to have!
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
bjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 2776 posts, RR: 2 Reply 38, posted (11 months 6 days 22 hours ago) and read 3059 times:
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 28): Imagine the bank makes an error in your favor. You are aware of the error and you spend the money. The bank finds the error and demands their money bank, you don't have enough. You will be prosecuted and probably go to jail.
jpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4241 posts, RR: 29 Reply 41, posted (11 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3027 times:
When there is some kind of harm being done.
This scenario presented is a fluke occurrence with no premeditation of 'stealing', with an item of minimal value, and which inconveniences me to correct. No harm done.
If its a smaller place that I frequent, I'd probably mention it the next time I go there, if I know and have a relationship with the employees. But if were talking some generic big store, forget it. I'd rather pay for the bloody socks than go through a whole charade with blank faced apathetic employees. There was no harm done, and all the potential that has to do is give me an awkward inconvenience or get some employee in trouble.
jpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4241 posts, RR: 29 Reply 42, posted (11 months 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 3015 times:
I almost see this as the equivalent of refusing to accept a piece of cake from a restaurant for your birthday or something. Sure, you say, they're doing it as a gesture of goodwill with intent. But at the end of the day, I am hurting their bottom line and getting something anyone else in the restaurant has to pay for. If you find sock thing immoral, why wouldn't taking the cake be as well?
I will take the cake because it is a premeditated intentional gesture of trivial value, same as I will keep the socks as 'stealing' them was unintentional and not premeditated.
I'm simply saying to all of you classifying this as 'stealing', you shouldn't take the cake either. If your intent doesn't matter, why should theirs?
Of course this example of mine sounds ridiculous, but it has a point. Of course the intent matters! Just as does the relativity of value. Whether you choose to admit it or not, there is an amount that is small enough to say, screw it! Would you bother going back (with small/moderate inconvenience) to pay for a pack of gum?
Nonetheless I'm sure i'll see my integrity questioned by some, but it really is a simple matter of our thresholds of value for bothering with this differing slightly, and i guess mine extends to about 10 bucks.
CXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2183 posts, RR: 4 Reply 43, posted (11 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3007 times:
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Quoting HOONS90 (Thread starter): Would you go back and honestly return it, or would you just forget about it? What if it was a cheaper/pricier item? Bear in mind that you only found out after you have left the store.
If I got good customer service from the store, I would absolutely take it back. I believe that honesty is the best policy, and sometimes you might even be rewarded for it.
Quoting HOONS90 (Thread starter): Would you be afraid of being accused of shoplifting and that you're just returning it because you feel guilty?
That would be in the back of my mind, yes. Generally, though, in my experience, they aren't going to accuse you of that - rather, they'd be thanking you for your honesty. But I guess it depends on the 'culture' of the place.
Quoting aloges (Reply 14): I was recently at a restaurant where the waitress wasn't up to the job. She was friendly and the food was good, but the needed three attempts to get the check right - and every time it was me who corrected her.
As a newbie waiter many, many moons ago, I made similar mistakes in presenting the bill to customers. I would've loved to have honest customers correct me, but I didn't. I was so embarrassed by it that I offered to pay the difference out of my wage, but thankfully, the boss took pity on me.
I wonder if that employee at H&M will have to pay the $10.
Quoting photoshooter (Reply 20): The companies you are talking about (H&M) don't care about $10 any longer. So no reason to feel guilty about it.
I disagree. Whether or not they are a big company is irrelevant, it is still lost earnings that the company is entitled to. Sure, it was an employee of the company that made the mistake, and if anyone is to blame at all, it is the employee, but everybody makes mistakes.
When you're taking an item without paying, that is of course harm done. It goes to the bottom line of the store, if not to deductions from the employees' salaries.
Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 41): This scenario presented is a fluke occurrence with no premeditation of 'stealing', with an item of minimal value, and which inconveniences me to correct.
So when you find a wallet, it's also okay to keep it, because you didn't have a premeditation of stealing it?
I'm not quite so convinced that your approach is consistent and defensible.
EDIT:
Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 42): I almost see this as the equivalent of refusing to accept a piece of cake from a restaurant for your birthday or something.
No, that is completely different, because it is a voluntary gift.
Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 42): Nonetheless I'm sure i'll see my integrity questioned by some, but it really is a simple matter of our thresholds of value for bothering with this differing slightly, and i guess mine extends to about 10 bucks.
Wow. I hope the people around you are aware of that and are cautious accordingly.
fr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 4258 posts, RR: 12 Reply 45, posted (11 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3000 times:
Quoting CXB77L (Reply 43): If I got good customer service from the store,
Should not make a difference.
Quoting CXB77L (Reply 43): That would be in the back of my mind, yes.
I wouldn't even consider it. If they accused me of shoplifting, it would be the last time they saw me at their door and there would be a corporate complaint before end-of-business that day.
Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 42): I'm simply saying to all of you classifying this as 'stealing', you shouldn't take the cake either. If your intent doesn't matter, why should theirs?
The cake is freely offered by the organization.
Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 42): but it really is a simple matter of our thresholds of value for bothering with this differing slightly, and i guess mine extends to about 10 bucks.
I see what you're saying here, but will pose this question: what do you tell your kid when he notices that you didn't pay for an item, in error?
jpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4241 posts, RR: 29 Reply 46, posted (11 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3002 times:
Quoting Klaus (Reply 44):
When you're taking an item without paying, that is of course harm done. It goes to the bottom line of the store, if not to deductions from the employees' salaries.
Yes, they'll take an inventory some weeks down the road and find a pack of socks missing. Big whoop.
Quoting Klaus (Reply 44):
So when you find a wallet, it's also okay to keep it, because you didn't have a premeditation of stealing it?
Oh, for Christ's sake. You just quoted my words about harm being done. Now you act like my simple criteria is solely premeditation. Premeditation was just one part of the equation above, a very important one to draw a distinction from what could be constituted as 'stealing'. But you know there are multiple factors i took into consideration.
If I really need to point out the distinction between a pack of socks missing in inventory versus a persons wallet with a more significant amount of value, identification and credit cards, and a very clear logical and moral path for resolution, than this is a very pointless conversation. The missing wallet person has been harmed greatly. The path for resolution for the store is more ambiguous, and you have more of a chance of getting someone in trouble than truly doing something 'good'.
You really fail to see the forest from the trees. There IS an amount for you to sacrifice this alleged morality of yours and not go through the trouble of going back to the store. Come on, there is. Mine simply seems to be a bit higher than yours. End of story.
This has turned into a pissing match of hyper-inflated self images and chest thumping of supposed integrity via theory vs. those of us using some realistic pragmatism.
I think we can all agree that some higher end items that were huge blatant errors by the cashier that we would easily notice would become a very dishonest thing to do.
The real question this thread asks is: how much is too much to get away with? Don't act like perspective and scale doesn't matter here. It's ALL that matters. We all have our number where it's too insignificant to bother with. I guess mine simply covers $10.. assuming i'm home from the store and not like, right outside the door.
Quoting Klaus (Reply 44):
I'm not quite so convinced that your approach is consistent and defensible.
jpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4241 posts, RR: 29 Reply 47, posted (11 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2988 times:
And quite honestly, the biggest matter for me would be... If is say, would I rather have just been charged for the thing than go back to the store and deal with this? If the answer is 'yes', then I hardly feel like I am getting away with anything. And for $10, i'm pretty sure I would just rather have paid. If this becomes a 30-60 minute ordeal to rectify, then no way.
jpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4241 posts, RR: 29 Reply 48, posted (11 months 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 2980 times:
Looking back on the opening post, I guess I have gotten things mangled around with all these possible scenarios. If i'm in the parking lot, I'd probably go back.
If the inconvenience is low, i'd return it. If the inconvenience is more, I wouldn't in most cases.
And in a moral gray area, I wouldn't if money was very tight for the family and somehow $10 really meant a lot, then no. But that makes the whole shopping spree scenario implausible.
dl021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11433 posts, RR: 81 Reply 49, posted (11 months 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 2953 times:
Guys...take note here...Klaus and I are in agreement about something....there just may be something to the point we are making.....that or the world is officially ending.
If the store chooses to give you something then that's a freebie...if you choose to keep something for which you've not paid and don't have their permission to keep then that's stealing.
Accidents happen, but once you know the facts it's no longer an accident in re what happens as you go forward. Stealing is stealing, and no amount of justification can really change it. Keeping that shirt doesn't make you Charles Manson or Jean Valjean....it just means that you are willing to steal, thus compromising your integrity for very little reason.
jpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4241 posts, RR: 29 Reply 50, posted (11 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2943 times:
Quoting dl021 (Reply 49): Stealing is stealing, and no amount of justification can really change it. Keeping that shirt doesn't make you Charles Manson or Jean Valjean....it just means that you are willing to steal, thus compromising your integrity for very little reason.
Bring it back. You're worth it.
We all know that certain scenarios and price points exist where every one of us would not be able or willing to bother. That's where this whole black and white 'stealing is stealing' without any perspective or scale can get absolutely ridiculous.
I'll grant you the first example, $10 good and you are just outside in the parking lot. Sure, i'll grant that as an immoral thing to do.
But there are many scenarios where with logistics or inconvenience, it's just not happening. And that doesn't necessarily make you 'stealing' or 'compromising your integrity'. Which is why putting blanket labels and rules rigid rules for this type of thing gets absurd.
starbuk7 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 591 posts, RR: 5 Reply 51, posted (11 months 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2943 times:
I was at a subway the other day getting my lunch. The bill came out to $7 dollars and something and I gave her a $10, she in turn handed me change for a $20. I looked at it and knew that it was wrong, handed her the extra $10 dollars back and told her that I gave her a $10 and not a $20. She thanked me and handed me a coupon for my next visit.
A cashier can get in a lot of trouble if the till does not match the receipts at the end of the day and possible get fired for it. Would you like that on your conscience if you found out that it happened because you took advantage of a mistake no matter how small or large it was. I think not if you have a conscience.
You're right. Theoretically, there shouldn't be any difference, but I would be less inclined to return an item if I didn't get decent service. The old saying of reaping what you sow comes into mind. If the staff were rude, impatient, or otherwise not performing to a standard that I expect as a customer, why should I help them? Let them pay for the item.
That said, I never not returned an item that was accidentally not scanned by the cashier. I rarely encounter service that I would describe as inadequate.
Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 48): And in a moral gray area, I wouldn't if money was very tight for the family and somehow $10 really meant a lot, then no.
There may be a moral grey area, but there isn't a legal one. Thus, the statement
Quoting dl021 (Reply 49): Stealing is stealing, and no amount of justification can really change it.
is correct. Sure, there could be numerous reasons why people try to justify it, but they are immaterial to the fact that something was taken without payment being made.
Klaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 20853 posts, RR: 55 Reply 53, posted (11 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2860 times:
Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 46): You really fail to see the forest from the trees. There IS an amount for you to sacrifice this alleged morality of yours and not go through the trouble of going back to the store. Come on, there is. Mine simply seems to be a bit higher than yours. End of story.
Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 46): This has turned into a pissing match of hyper-inflated self images and chest thumping of supposed integrity via theory vs. those of us using some realistic pragmatism.
"Realistic pragmatism" in the vein of "hey, everybody steals, right"?
No. Not everybody does.
What you seem to miss completely is that it's not about feeling important or superior, but about doing the right thing.
That I live in an environment in which people are generally honest and correct is a part of my quality of life. I enjoy living like that.
And that implies that I need to make my own contribution as well. A cashier to whom I indicate an item missing on the receipt has his or her confidence reinforced in the honesty of his or her customers. As much as I appreciate them to point out when I've left my wallet at the register or if I've mistakenly handed them a larger bill than I thought I did.
I like living without having to permanently watch out for other people possibly exploiting or deceiving me. And that means I have to justify as much trust as I'd like to have in others.
It's not a perfect world, but it does matter whether one makes an effort to improve it a little bit.
tugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 4631 posts, RR: 7 Reply 54, posted (11 months 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2849 times:
Quoting starbuk7 (Reply 51): I was at a subway the other day getting my lunch. The bill came out to $7 dollars and something and I gave her a $10, she in turn handed me change for a $20. I looked at it and knew that it was wrong, handed her the extra $10 dollars back and told her that I gave her a $10 and not a $20.
I have had the exact same thing happen to me and be it $1 or $10 or more I give the extra back.
And I have had the exact opposite happen, I gave a $20 and was given change for a $10. Normally it is taken care there immediately by the cashier but at least twice I have had the cashier swear that they were right and I had to call the manager over. One time the manager cashed out the register right then and confirmed the error and gave me my correct change and the other time I was told they would cash it out at the end of the shift and would verify then. I was a bit upset about it and concerned that the cashier might "take it" just to make their till even but when I called at the end of the day the error was confirmed and they had my money (it was something like $5 or $10) waiting for the next time I returned.
With that in mind, to all those that say they would not return to correct the mistake (the missed item): Would you return to pick up money (say $5 or $10) that was owed you? Why? Is there really any difference? I mean in the grand scheme of things losing $10 doesn't really impact most people on this site.
To me, in the end I feel as dl201 does:
Quoting dl021 (Reply 49):
Bring it back. You're worth it.
Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
fr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 4258 posts, RR: 12 Reply 55, posted (11 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2838 times:
Quoting Klaus (Reply 53): And that implies that I need to make my own contribution as well. A cashier to whom I indicate an item missing on the receipt has his or her confidence reinforced in the honesty of his or her customers. As much as I appreciate them to point out when I've left my wallet at the register or if I've mistakenly handed them a larger bill than I thought I did.
I like living without having to permanently watch out for other people possibly exploiting or deceiving me. And that means I have to justify as much trust as I'd like to have in others.
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 19708 posts, RR: 56 Reply 56, posted (11 months 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2825 times:
Quoting tugger (Reply 54): With that in mind, to all those that say they would not return to correct the mistake (the missed item): Would you return to pick up money (say $5 or $10) that was owed you?
If it's worth it to me, I will. If it's not, I won't. The likelihood that I'll make a journey to a store that's not in my neighborhood over $20 is pretty low.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
Zentraedi From Japan, joined Jun 2007, 649 posts, RR: 0 Reply 57, posted (11 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2805 times:
I feel like I'm in bizzaro land here.
By having you come back, the store is wasting your time. They are at fault in the matter and if there is an issue, the onus should therefore be upon them to resolve things.
How much time does this return cost you? Is your time worth nothing?
This doesn't mean I would steal anything. It just means that if the guy didn't scan it, it's his fault, a.k.a it's the shop's fault. Basically they're giving it to me for free.
Quoting MD-90 (Reply 36): In a case like that you could always call the store and ask them to send you a bill. If they won't then I'd consider the matter settled.
And at the end of the day, they probably won't because that costs them more to deal with.
Business is about profit, not cosmic karma.
fr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 4258 posts, RR: 12 Reply 58, posted (11 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2786 times:
Quoting Zentraedi (Reply 57): By having you come back, the store is wasting your time.
Who is talking about the store having you come back?
Your decision. Your level of integrity. You want to walk to 100 yards back to the store and pay the money, that's up to you. You want to keep on going and keep the merchandise, that's up to you also.
Two years ago I order a flashlight from a regional police/fire/ems equipment supplier. Instead of one flashlight, they sent me one box (12) of flashlights and charged me for one. I called them back, explained the issue and asked what would they do. The lady took my email, said she would contact her boss and get me a shipping label to return the flashlights (minus the one I ordered). I never received an email, nor any further contact about the flashlights. I gave them to family as stocking stuffers for Christmas.
jpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4241 posts, RR: 29 Reply 59, posted (11 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2747 times:
Quoting Klaus (Reply 53):
"Realistic pragmatism" in the vein of "hey, everybody steals, right"?
No. Not everybody does.
You are very apt in completely distorting what I said. None of the reasoning is about "everybody steals". That's absurd and you know it, but you could care less about the truth right now. The vast majority of my reasoning revolves around the person HONESTLY weighing their inconvenience versus. the actual cost of the product. Hence why I say I would go back if i were in the parking lot. If you feel like you're getting away with something, thats one thing. It's another if you'd rather just have been charged rather than going back to the store with significant inconvenience, i'm supposed to call that stealing?
Quoting Klaus (Reply 53):
What you seem to miss completely is that it's not about feeling important or superior, but about doing the right thing.
No, it's about a ridiculously rigid philosophical debate that ignores that there are scenarios and price points that all of us would not bother with it. Which are different scenarios from the opening post.
By having you come back, the store is wasting your time. They are at fault in the matter and if there is an issue, the onus should therefore be upon them to resolve things.
How much time does this return cost you? Is your time worth nothing?
Exactly. Everyone that takes this out of the equation in favor of principle is lying. If you stop at a grocery store on the way home from work, buy $100 bucks worth of groceries for dinner, and you realize later that night the cashier didn't ring up the pack of gum from check out.... I am supposed to believe the people on this forum see this as some kind of theft and would drop everything and run back to the store to preserve their soul or something? Come on.
HOONS90 From Canada, joined Aug 2001, 2668 posts, RR: 54 Reply 60, posted (11 months 6 days 11 hours ago) and read 2754 times:
AIRLINERS.NET CREW CHAT OPERATOR
I gave the store a call and agreed to drop by the next time I'm in that area. Would have done so already if it was a neighborhood store. I think that's a fair compromise--I don't have to go out of my way and be inconvenienced, and they get their $7.99 (not $10 like in the hypothetical scenario in my original post).
The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
bjorn14 From Norway, joined Feb 2010, 2776 posts, RR: 2 Reply 61, posted (11 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2673 times:
Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 47): And for $10, i'm pretty sure I would just rather have paid. If this becomes a 30-60 minute ordeal to rectify, then no way.
Sometimes doing the right thing is the hardest.
Quoting tugger (Reply 54): I have had the cashier swear that they were right
Most cashiers are trained to place the bill above the drawer until you have recieved your change. This avoids your situation and scammers.
"An idea has to be incredibly absurd to have any reasonable chance of succeeding" --A. Einstein
jpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4241 posts, RR: 29 Reply 62, posted (11 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2668 times:
Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 61): Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 47):
And for $10, i'm pretty sure I would just rather have paid. If this becomes a 30-60 minute ordeal to rectify, then no way.
Sometimes doing the right thing is the hardest.
Fine, what is your price point in that scenario? You've driven home 20 minutes from the store and notice you got your $1 gum for free. You're not planning on returning there anytime soon. What to do you do?
I merely am trying to point out that this blanket 'stealing is stealing' and anything like this is compromising your integrity. It's relative, and depends on scale and situation.
dc9northwest From Romania, joined Feb 2007, 1735 posts, RR: 4 Reply 63, posted (11 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2649 times:
Should you bring it back?
Yes, you should.
Would most people bring it back?
No, they wouldn't.
Say you never discovered the error. Is it still stealing? To be honest I never check the receipt after buying groceries or whatever. So I might either be paying somewhat more or less, without even knowing. I figure, it evens out, as double scanning an item is as likely as missing one.
fr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 4258 posts, RR: 12 Reply 65, posted (11 months 5 days 19 hours ago) and read 2603 times:
Quoting Klaus (Reply 64): I'd still know what it really was, and it would be like a bit of dirt sticking to me. And I'd hate that kind of feeling.
I know what you mean.
When I was 8 or 9, I was with one of my father's friends and we were walking down 5th ave in Brooklyn. When he stoops down and picks up, what turns out to be, a bank passbook. It has a bunch of $20 in it. The man immediately pockets the cash, after I help him (and others) run down some errant bills. He thanks the folks that help him, promptly heads for the bank (just down the street) and turns in the passbook (sans cash), saying he found it.
A little different from the scenarios above, but here I am, almost 35 years later, and I still feel bad about that. I knew it was wrong and I failed to do anything about it. Don't really know what I could have done, but that doesn't change what I feel.
AviRaider From United States of America, joined Nov 2007, 163 posts, RR: 0 Reply 68, posted (11 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2567 times:
This doesn't really count as shoplifting, after all it was in a cashers hands, just not rung up. I think if your in the store and you see a an error like this you say something, that's what I do. But, once you leave you aren't obligated to go back to correct it although I've done that myself. Stores by a wide margin, know these mistakes happen and are ok with you getting it for free, if the item is of little value. Now if it's a diamond ring or something well yea they will track you down.
SmittyOne From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 898 posts, RR: 2 Reply 69, posted (11 months 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 2560 times:
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 24): Integrity is doing the right thing even if nobody is looking.
Absolutely, and ultimately the integrity that a person shows when there is no chance of getting 'busted' is the only kind that matters.
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 45):
I see what you're saying here, but will pose this question: what do you tell your kid when he notices that you didn't pay for an item, in error?
Found myself in a similar situation and explained clearly to my daughter what I was doing and why.
I remember my dad said to me one time "Don't ever steal. It's low class." That really stuck with me.
Quoting MD-90 (Reply 36): In a case like that you could always call the store and ask them to send you a bill. If they won't then I'd consider the matter settled.
Agreed, my time is valuable and it was their mistake so it's perfectly reasonable to put the ball in their court.
tugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 4631 posts, RR: 7 Reply 70, posted (11 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2541 times:
Quoting bjorn14 (Reply 61): Most cashiers are trained to place the bill above the drawer until you have recieved your change. This avoids your situation and scammers.
Agreed. I was taught the same when I was a cashier long ago. Place the given money separately, pull the change, and count it back to the customer (counting up to the given money's total). But sadly I have seen that many (most?) modern cashiers stare at the register waiting for it to tell them how much the change is, then pull it and dump it into your hand all at once, and just basically say "Here's your change".
Quoting AviRaider (Reply 68): This doesn't really count as shoplifting, after all it was in a cashers hands, just not rung up. I think if your in the store and you see a an error like this you say something, that's what I do. But, once you leave you aren't obligated to go back to correct it although I've done that myself. Stores by a wide margin, know these mistakes happen and are ok with you getting it for free, if the item is of little value. Now if it's a diamond ring or something well yea they will track you down.
Yes, it is certainly NOT shoplifting, if it is not rung up it is an error on the store employee's part not yours. However for several reason's I disagree with the assertion the the store is OK with it. If you do become aware the you were not charged for something (and for myself I tend to be aware immediately because I am just always aware of how much I am spending, how much I planned/expected to spend, and will notice any discrepancy either high or low and will ask about it), to me first and foremost the store needs to know because they may need review their processes or systems or even retrain or watch the employee. In the end it makes things cost less if stores lose less and if they are informed when they do lose stuff.
I hear and understand the many people that say "It's not a big deal, who cares?" but the simple fact is that I care and so I have stated what I would do.
Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
Aesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 4788 posts, RR: 9 Reply 71, posted (11 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2461 times:
Quoting HOONS90 (Thread starter): Would returning it actually get the cashier in trouble?
Would it get YOU in trouble ?
These days, you never know.
Aside from that, I'm not sure what I would do, but for sure I wouldn't lose sleep or feel guilty over a few bucks. Usually I would notice right away and probably ask the cashier to check, because I like to know how much I've bought before checking out.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
StuckInCA From United States of America, joined Oct 2005, 1781 posts, RR: 1 Reply 72, posted (11 months 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2456 times:
Over a $10 item and I was in the car already I wouldn't go back as I value my time more highly than that and is their fault entirely. Their business model should accomodate some loss especially if their systems and people are inept enough that things are simply not scanned. If I noticed it happening while I was still checking out I would point it out.
If it were much more money than that I'd take it back even from the car.
Aeri28 From United States of America, joined Dec 2000, 595 posts, RR: 0 Reply 74, posted (11 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2199 times:
The chances of this happening with a larger ticket item, ie. a shirt of pants or shoes lol. is a lot more rare and there surely would be a buzzer or some warning.
Now you'll love this.. because sometimes things happen which are a little out of our control or happen too fast we don't realize they are happening.
I was at 7/11 last night and I bought some milk and a small piece of Siu Mei, total was about $2.78. The girl may have started off confused as she only rang up the Siu Mei, then I told her the milk too. /then she rang that up, so yes, total of $2.78. I hand her a $20 bill, then I say "can i have $1 of that in change please? 4 Quarters". I am pretty sure she hands me $18 in bills PLUS $1 in quarters and the $0.22 in change (from the .78). I grab it it doesnt' seem right and then say "hey wait, I think you gave me too much change back". She looks at it, counts and says "No that is right". I, confused say "okay" because may be I am wrong and I dont want to appear stupid. I'm pretty sure I am looking at $18 plus the $1 and the $0.78, but I may be wrong I am thinking. I am tired, it's 11:30 pm, there's a line and the other person is ringing others up, so I left. I walk out and question whether I am right or wrong, but I had made the effort initially and was sent away, so I basically end up thinking it is possible I may be wrong. But I still didn't think I was wrong...??
I was not going to go back for another round...lol. I tried, I was sent away, I questioned myself and what I saw. Funny though, I have such a guilty conscience that I said "at least if they come back for me I have my first rebuttal of my concern on the video cam they surely must have lol".
A346Dude From Canada, joined Nov 2004, 1198 posts, RR: 8 Reply 76, posted (11 months 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2184 times:
Quoting Aeri28 (Reply 74): I was not going to go back for another round...lol. I tried, I was sent away, I questioned myself and what I saw. Funny though, I have such a guilty conscience that I said "at least if they come back for me I have my first rebuttal of my concern on the video cam they surely must have lol".
I wouldn't worry about $2, since you tried pretty hard to correct her. Over the course of our lives it's inevitable we will come out up or down a few bucks. Most of the time we don't even notice it.
You know the gear is up and locked when it takes full throttle to taxi to the terminal.
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