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Only 20 Mth Sentence For Stealing £200,000!  
User currently offlineRussianJet From Kyrgyzstan, joined Jul 2007, 7633 posts, RR: 23
Posted (1 year 10 months 3 days 18 hours ago) and read 1429 times:
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This seems like yet another absurdly light sentence from the British justice system.

This woman stole £200,000 from the small company she worked for, and potentially jeopardised the livelihoods at least twenty people. To think that she will probably actually only be in prison for less than a year for stealing such a vast sum is just ludicrous. I think the point about endangering the position of others is particularly pertinent and worthy of serioius punishment, never mind the original offence itself.

What would this sort of crime get you in the US? I have trouble believing it would be anything so light. I know I have posted on this subject before, but it really does seem like we just read about one stupidly inadequate sentence after another from day to day.

A lot of people I know are sick of this, yet no government seems to want to do anything radical to change the situation. I guess the pressure on the jail system and the desire to save money probably plays a huge part in the equation. But seriously, enough is enough! Serious crimes deserve serious sentences.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lancashire-18523579


✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
9 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1785 posts, RR: 10
Reply 1, posted (1 year 10 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1409 times:

In Canada, embezzlement falls under the charge of Theft or Fraud (I thought it was the same in England?).

Here is a chart showing the penalties for various related charges (it's the best one I could find that had all charges on the same page): http://www.defencelaw.com/penalty-dishonesty.html

Assuming that she was charged on only one count (it doesn't specify in the linked artcle), in Canada she would have faced a maximum penalty of 10 years in prison.

I'm not a lawyer, so I may be wrong on this, but if there are 122 fraudulent transactions, could she not technically be tried on 122 charges of Theft/Fraud?

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
I think the point about endangering the position of others is particularly pertinent and worthy of serioius punishment, never mind the original offence itself.

Indeed. If this company went under because of her greed, livelihoods could have been at stake.

I wonder how much of the stolen money was actually spent. I hope a portion of it was recoverable from her accounts.



Flying refined.
User currently offlineajd1992 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (1 year 10 months 3 days 17 hours ago) and read 1391 times:

I saw this before and it shocked me. How she got away so lightly is beyond me, although I read the other day about a lorry driver who was speeding in the rain with an obscured windscreen, killed a cyclist then claimed "his rear light was faulty", and was let off.

The justice system in the UK needs a serious overhaul.


User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12041 posts, RR: 47
Reply 3, posted (1 year 10 months 3 days 2 hours ago) and read 1294 times:
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Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
This seems like yet another absurdly light sentence from the British justice system.

It must have been within the guidelines, otherwise the prosecution would be appealing it.

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):
This woman stole £200,000 from the small company she worked for, and potentially jeopardised the livelihoods at least twenty people.

If the company was that small, the amount involved should have been noticed much sooner. Clearly there were insufficient controls in place to prevent fraud.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 1):
I'm not a lawyer, so I may be wrong on this, but if there are 122 fraudulent transactions, could she not technically be tried on 122 charges of Theft/Fraud?

Wouldn't matter. Even if each count were prosecuted separately and she received a one-year sentence for each count, those would normally run concurrently.



Hey AA, the 1960s called. They want their planes back!
User currently offlineRussianJet From Kyrgyzstan, joined Jul 2007, 7633 posts, RR: 23
Reply 4, posted (1 year 10 months 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 1269 times:
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Quoting scbriml (Reply 3):
If the company was that small, the amount involved should have been noticed much sooner. Clearly there were insufficient controls in place to prevent fraud.

Depends how gradually she did it, but it was eventually discovered anyway. I guess one could say they should have better controls, but then I doubt anyone really thought it likely that anyone would plunder quite so voraciously.

Quoting scbriml (Reply 3):
It must have been within the guidelines

Sure, but it's still stupidly lenient. I don't necessarily blame the judge.



✈ Every strike of the hammer is a blow against the enemy. ✈
User currently onlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2051 posts, RR: 13
Reply 5, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 1242 times:

Twenty months for serious injury to the body without long-term disabilty is the going rate here. Stealing 200'000 £ would be punished with about 6 months, I dare say.

In Switzerland, it wouldn't be theft, but misappropriation. If somebody appropriates thingst hat were entrusted to him, the punishment is 10 years at maximum, or a fine. If the person was in a professional profession, the maximum is ten years prison or a fine.

The maximum punishment is extremely rare - and rightfully so, in order not to set a precedent which would "devalue" the punishment of somebody else, who, in the future, would perpetrate an even bigger crime.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6109 posts, RR: 9
Reply 6, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 12 hours ago) and read 1173 times:

If you think what she did was financially harmful to the company or the other employees, then a better sentence would be damages to pay to them. There is no need for a long prison sentence for someone who is not a danger to society, in my opinion.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently onlineflyingturtle From Switzerland, joined Oct 2011, 2051 posts, RR: 13
Reply 7, posted (1 year 10 months 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1133 times:

Quoting flyingturtle (Reply 5):

I meant 5 years maximum prison sentence in cases of misappropriation, and 10 years maximum if you were in a professional position.

Here's the relevant law: http://www.admin.ch/ch/e/rs/311_0/a138.html

Of course she will be forced to pay back the money, with interests. Coming from a country that is relatively friendly to debtors, after either 20 years or the day she has fully repaid the debt she's given a fresh start.

Until she paid off the debt, she would have to live off about +/- 2000 € per month (1000 € plus health insurance, plus simple accomodation and its ancillary expenses, and if reasonable, a car or public transport). It's about 160 € more than social welfare recipients are getting.

For comparison, the median month wage in construction jobs (20 years old, no work experience, no education, simple and repetitive tasks, 40 hours/week) was 3600 € in 2008.


David



Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
User currently offlinedetroitflyer From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 382 posts, RR: 0
Reply 8, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1081 times:

Looks like under MCL 750.174 - Embezzlement over $100,000 is a felony punishable by no more than 20 years with a fine not to exceed $50,000 or 3 times the value of the embezzled money (Whichever is greater).
Would she get the maximum? probably not even close, but they would take into account prior record variables and offense variables (how many ppl it effected) to get to the sentencing guidelines.



Boiler Up!!!
User currently offlineGST From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2008, 930 posts, RR: 0
Reply 9, posted (1 year 10 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 1071 times:

Quoting RussianJet (Thread starter):

A lot of people I know are sick of this, yet no government seems to want to do anything radical to change the situation. I guess the pressure on the jail system and the desire to save money probably plays a huge part in the equation.

Changing the situation to enable longer average sentences would cost an enormous amount for additional penal capacity. I would also point out that modifying facilities to a more repayment/rehab emphasis would cost too in the short term but I feel would be superior overall, for society and the economy whilst still punishing the offender.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 6):
If you think what she did was financially harmful to the company or the other employees, then a better sentence would be damages to pay to them. There is no need for a long prison sentence for someone who is not a danger to society, in my opinion.

Indeed. I would much rather sentences had a greater emphasis on repairing the damage where possible (so mostly cases where the damage can be quantified financially) with rehabilitation. Punitive effects come third in my estimation, they are still necessary certainly but requiring someone to appropriately severe endure hardships and live on less whilst they repay their crime could serve just as well with less drain on the public purse.

It makes little sense for people to leave prison after a mostly "punishment" term, having done little to right their original wrong in this time, and still in the mindset to offend, possibly being hardened to do so.

The Scandinavian countries appear, at least to me, to often do this much better and indeed more cost effectively compared to the running of UK prisons.


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