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GOP Conspiracy Theories And Witch Hunts  
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12458 posts, RR: 25
Posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1866 times:

It's interesting to me that IMHO the GOP is the best at seeing conspiracy theories everywhere and proceed on witch hunts based on those theories, when in reality they are the ones who were behind the most serious conspiracies in recent memory.

Conspiracies they've pursued:

* Fast and Furious: A hare-brained BATF operation turned into anti-gun conspiracy

* Clinton Lewinsky scandal: A lie about a blow job or two turned into high political drama

* Clinton Whitewater land deal / Vince Foster death: All smoke, no fire

* Red Scare / McCarthyism: Nixon's rise to fame via smoke and mirrors fed by closet homosexual J Edgar Hoover selectively leaking files to grease the skids (so to speak)

Conspiracies they've created:

* Watergate: Tape yourselves trying to tape the Dems offices, create cover-up complete with slush fund

* Iran/Contra: Lt Col North sitting in the White House basement trading drugs for guns, "plausible deniability" enters the vocabulary

* Bay of Pigs: Created by Ike's administration, followed-on by JFK's administration, led directly to Missile Crisis, which came close to nuclear war

So, what is it about the GOP soul that makes them so fond of this kind of stuff?

It's real dangerous because it gives them a "selection bias": They think there are conspiracies everywhere, perhaps because they are so prone to having them themselves, so they presume everyone else is involved with conspiracies, so when they get data, they immediately try to fit it into some sort of conspiracy theory.

This is the exact kind of thinking on behalf of the Soviets that nearly led us to nuclear war: see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_RYAN. The Soviet leadership talked themselves into believing that the US would use a nuclear first strike so all data that the KGB reported with time had to conform to this theory. Any data that didn't fit this theory was rejected. When they saw NATO practicing a nuclear launch, they almost convinced themselves it was an actual nuclear launch. An interesting side effect was that they were getting incredibly good information from the KGB via well-placed and well-paid spies, but they rejected it because it didn't fit the RYAN scenario.

That's what I see happening here with F&F: the NRA types are convinced this is some sort of anti-gun conspiracy so we have to drop everything and find that darn conspiracy they're sure exists.

It's not doing themselves any good with the swing voters, who are still focused on economic issues such as jobs, the budget and taxes while the GOP indulges itself with a witch hunt which only energizes the folks that are going to vote GOP anyway and makes the swing voters really wonder if these clowns could govern.


Inspiration, move me brightly!
17 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 27
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 13 hours ago) and read 1851 times:

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
So, what is it about the GOP soul that makes them so fond of this kind of stuff?

Ask the Democrats who think that asking people for ID when they go to vote constitutes a conspiracy to keep black/poor/brown/homeless people from voting.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineEricR From United States of America, joined Jul 2010, 1904 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1821 times:

Among other things, you are not comparing apples to apples. You should be comparing conspiracies that the GOP has pursued versus those that the Democrats have pursued. Guess what? You'll find the exact same type of garbage. This kind of BS happens on both sides. Democrats are no more innocent on this issue than the GOP.

User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5400 posts, RR: 14
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 1810 times:

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
* Fast and Furious: A hare-brained BATF operation turned into anti-gun conspiracy
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-31727_16...make-the-case-for-gun-regulations/

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
* Clinton Lewinsky scandal: A lie about a blow job or two turned into high political drama


He received a blowjob, he lied about it under oath. He was impeached for perjury. He was disbarred for it.

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
* Bay of Pigs: Created by Ike's administration, followed-on by JFK's administration, led directly to Missile Crisis, which came close to nuclear war


The Cuban Missile Crisis was directly caused by the Soviets putting missiles in Cuba. The Bay of Pigs may have had some causality, but hardly led directly to it. BTW, Bay of Pigs and Operation Mongoose were run under the JFK administration.

Quoting Revelation (Thread starter):
* Iran/Contra: Lt Col North sitting in the White House basement trading drugs for guns, "plausible deniability" enters the vocabulary


Kinda like trading guns for ????? in order to 'I'm not really sure what' with the Mexican cartels?

Conspiracies go both ways, politically.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5523 posts, RR: 8
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 1749 times:

Quoting EricR (Reply 2):
Among other things, you are not comparing apples to apples. You should be comparing conspiracies that the GOP has pursued versus those that the Democrats have pursued. Guess what? You'll find the exact same type of garbage. This kind of BS happens on both sides. Democrats are no more innocent on this issue than the GOP.

But the question is: Who will be the grownups and stop doing it?

To me neither party is really "grown up" and so when either party claims to be more legitimate, "more right" than the other it doesn't pass the smell test. First do as you say, follow the golden rule, then tell me you are "better" than the other.

Until then I will believe neither side and challenge both party's and continue to despise and discount the "talking points" and come to my own conclusions that neither side agrees with. To me, if you actually agree with most of what a "side" comes up with you are a pawn and uninformed.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12458 posts, RR: 25
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 8 hours ago) and read 1701 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
Ask the Democrats who think that asking people for ID when they go to vote constitutes a conspiracy to keep black/poor/brown/homeless people from voting.

Good point.

Quoting EricR (Reply 2):
You should be comparing conspiracies that the GOP has pursued versus those that the Democrats have pursued.

My main point is that it seems to me there aren't many Dem conspiracy theories compared to GOP ones, so it's hard to make such a comparison, but feel free to point out Dem conspiracy theories of any significance.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 3):
He received a blowjob, he lied about it under oath. He was impeached for perjury. He was disbarred for it.

Absolutely correct, but of no significance in the great scheme of things, unless you think the sex life of politicians is of significance.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 3):

The Cuban Missile Crisis was directly caused by the Soviets putting missiles in Cuba. The Bay of Pigs may have had some causality, but hardly led directly to it.

The reason the Cubans would accept the bulls eye that comes along with the missiles is of course the Bay of Pigs gave them a huge justified fear of invasion.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 3):
BTW, Bay of Pigs and Operation Mongoose were run under the JFK administration.

Right, as I said above, it was kicked off by Ike's CIA, but kept alive by JFK's.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 3):
Kinda like trading guns for ????? in order to 'I'm not really sure what' with the Mexican cartels?

That's the whole point - the GOP goes into it with the bias that says there has to be something going on, so let's select data that fits the theory.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19584 posts, RR: 58
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 1671 times:

Here's something I don't get. Biden is pro-Gun. Obama has really been pretty silent on the issue during his administration. He just hasn't made a big deal of guns. He's made a big deal of pot, but not guns.

So why did this happen? And why is the GOP so convinced that he's out to take everyone's guns when he really hasn't said much about it?

More to the point, I've found that the Right has been doing a lot of wacky stuff, lately. Calling a center-right President a "Socialist." Obama is about as conservative as Reagan on a lot of issues, more so in some ways because Obama has permitted a regressive tax scheme (albeit under protest), while Reagan allowed no such thing. Then there's the global warming conspiracy theory, as if it's easier to believe that 99% of scientists are lying and in cahoots with governments to crash the global economy than it is to believe that the oil companies want us to keep drilling. Then there's the Birthers, and don't try to tell me that's not a Conservative thing, since huge portions of registered Republicans are "uncertain" or more skeptical as to whether Obama was born in the U.S. (an irrelevant question, since his mother was a citizen, anyway).

Not that there aren't crazy conspiracy theories that tend to be made up of left-wingers. The antivaccine group is a great example of that. But it just strikes me that more of them coming from right-wingers. I don't know why. I would have guessed that extreme political leanings either way would tend to make one prone to wackjob conspiracy theories.


User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13088 posts, RR: 12
Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 1634 times:

Don't forget the Congressional Committee earlier this year that only listened to mostly men and a few very conservative women as to the debate over birth contol mandates in health insurers including for employees of religoius hospitals. You had the really shameful 'hearings' with the CEO of JP Morgan Chase Bank - members of both parties pandering to him rather than asking real questions about their shameful banking practices.

Democrats have their moments too when the controlling party of both houses, recall the numerous battles over US Supreme Court nominations.

No matter the party in power, there has been abuses of the committee hearing process in the House and Senate as soime previous posters have noted. Being selective in who presents testimony, the topics of lawmaking for special interest or to get political points. Oftent they hearings are more for their committee members getting attention for themselves, to use in campaigns. Over the last 30 or so years, especially due to C-Span and the rise of cable news stations, a lot more of the nasty fights some of these committees are more visable and known.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12458 posts, RR: 25
Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 18 hours ago) and read 1555 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
Not that there aren't crazy conspiracy theories that tend to be made up of left-wingers. The antivaccine group is a great example of that. But it just strikes me that more of them coming from right-wingers.

Agreed. I feel that the right wing conspiracies are the ones that have turned into actual crisis situations, the key example of which is Watergate. I really don't think people younger than 40 or so understand what an absolute crisis that was. The President was defying the Supreme Court with regard to releasing the tapes. The whole US Constitution was on the verge of falling apart, yes really, no we aren't talking about a president lying about a blow job, we're talking about a president lying about covering up an attempt to undermine the entire political process by spying on the opposition, and a president defying the Supreme Court.

I don't think many younger folks can understand what a funk the entire nation was in after Watergate and the Vietnam War...

We were shocked that the US could lose a war to Vietnam, and we were shocked that Nixon would spy on the Dems and then do everything in his power to cover it up. I suppose a lot of it was that Nixon ran along the Conservative lines of being the honest, patriotic candidate, but in fact he was a total slime ball and paranoid fool.

None of the so-called crises since has risen to that sad level, IMHO. Nothing even close.

Maybe the closest we've come to such a crisis since Watergate is Gore vs Bush over the Florida election, but for whatever reason, Gore just felt he couldn't make the nation suffer through that, and I think a lot of that had to come from the impact of Watergate. Of course in 20/20 hindsight I have to wonder if he would have gone forward had he known 9/11 and Iraq would be in our future...

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 7):
Over the last 30 or so years, especially due to C-Span and the rise of cable news stations, a lot more of the nasty fights some of these committees are more visable and known.

Agreed it is an important factor, but I brought up things like McCarthyism and the Red Scare to show that IMHO this GOP paranoia predates cable TV and the Internet.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3178 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 1474 times:

Who started the 9/11 conspiracy theories that Bush Administration was behind it? Seems like more Libertarians (and non conservative/liberal independents) seem to believe them.

User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12458 posts, RR: 25
Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 1451 times:

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 9):
Who started the 9/11 conspiracy theories that Bush Administration was behind it? Seems like more Libertarians (and non conservative/liberal independents) seem to believe them.

Good point.

It makes me recall how most 'isolationists' thought FDR deliberately ignored warning signs that Japan was going to attack Pearl Harbor so that the US would be drawn into WWII.

It is a fact that an informant was telling the FBI that Pearl Harbor was the target, but the evidence also says that JE Hoover thought the informant was a crackpot so the FBI didn't didn't do anything with the information.

I just finished reading a book about the Navy code breakers who were able to break Japan's codes and learn most of the key details of the Midway attack weeks before it happened. It also went into a lot of detail about Pearl Harbor.

The main issue was that the unit at Pearl Harbor that eventually cracked the Japanese codes wasn't assigned to that particular set of codes till after the attack, the unit in the Philippines was, and it hadn't made much progress.

The unit in Pearl knew that the IJN was moving a lot of units around, but it thought it was moving them south, not towards Pearl. It knew this from traffic analysis, not from code breaking. The real issue was that the fleet that was attacking Pearl had been observing radio silence for weeks, and no one in the USN had any idea where it was.

The unit in Pearl also had copies of coded messages to the Japanese consulate in Hawaii asking it for detailed info on the US fleet, but the USN unit thought tracking the IJN was its primary job and did not devote resources to cracking those messages before the attack.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 27
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 1448 times:

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 9):
Who started the 9/11 conspiracy theories that Bush Administration was behind it? Seems like more Libertarians (and non conservative/liberal independents) seem to believe them.

That and a lot of liberal conspiracy theories focus on businesses and not necessarily the government.

Conspiracy theorists tend to fall into either the hippy fight-the-power anarchists on the left wing or gun-toting survivalist libertarian militias on the right. They even get their own media: History Channel for the latter and Michael Moore films for the former.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 10):
that JE Hoover thought the informant was a crackpot so the FBI didn't didn't do anything with the information.

Hard to imagine J Edgar thinking anyone is a crackpot.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently onlinecedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8093 posts, RR: 54
Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1438 times:

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 3):
He received a blowjob, he lied about it under oath. He was impeached for perjury. He was disbarred for it.

He should never have been asked questions about his private life - sex between consenting adults is no-one else's business.

Quoting fr8mech (Reply 3):
Kinda like trading guns for ????? in order to 'I'm not really sure what' with the Mexican cartels?

Ahahaha come on! First of all, I don't think the US government is selling guns to Mexican drug cartels, and even if they are / were, what are we talking about? Machine guns? Maybe? Reagan was selling missiles to the Iranian government, a sworn and declared enemy of America! And directly rewarding terrorism. Nothing on Obama's watch touches this, sorry.

OK, now we're getting somewhere, cos yes, it's mostly on the left you'll find people question the official narrative of 9/11.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 9):

Who started the 9/11 conspiracy theories that Bush Administration was behind it? Seems like more Libertarians (and non conservative/liberal independents) seem to believe them.

But is is surprising...? (And this doesn't even cover actual evidence, just bloopers from officials!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6Xoxaf1Al0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUmr9dFbf2c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G43zl4fzDQg (LONG!)



fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3360 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1425 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
Ask the Democrats who think that asking people for ID when they go to vote constitutes a conspiracy to keep black/poor/brown/homeless people from voting.

Well ID or photo ID. A lot of those minorities are lower class can do not have driver's licenses (the most common photo ID) if you are asking for that then it is kind of voter suppression knowing full well that those groups tend to vote for the democrats. If a national ID is implemented then this is a non-issue.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 6):
More to the point, I've found that the Right has been doing a lot of wacky stuff, lately. Calling a center-right President a "Socialist." Obama is about as conservative as Reagan on a lot of issues, more so in some ways because Obama has permitted a regressive tax scheme (albeit under protest), while Reagan allowed no such thing. Then there's the global warming conspiracy theory, as if it's easier to believe that 99% of scientists are lying and in cahoots with governments to crash the global economy than it is to believe that the oil companies want us to keep drilling. Then there's the Birthers, and don't try to tell me that's not a Conservative thing, since huge portions of registered Republicans are "uncertain" or more skeptical as to whether Obama was born in the U.S. (an irrelevant question, since his mother was a citizen, anyway).

There was a video in the Moody's downgrade thread about Donald Trump saying that Obama struck a deal with the Saudi's to increase oil supply thus dropping the price which will help in his re-election. Now if that isn't batsh*t I don't know what is.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 11):
They even get their own media: History Channel for the latter and Michael Moore films for the former.

Michael Moore presents a one sided view that fits his views but he doesn't make up stuff. He interprets the facts how he feels but doesn't use false facts.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently onlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15735 posts, RR: 27
Reply 14, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 1416 times:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 13):
Well ID or photo ID. A lot of those minorities are lower class can do not have driver's licenses (the most common photo ID) if you are asking for that then it is kind of voter suppression knowing full well that those groups tend to vote for the democrats.

I don't know about other states, but in my home state the homeless and those on food stamps can get government ID's for free. Everyone else has to pay like $20 or something.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3360 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 1373 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 14):
I don't know about other states, but in my home state the homeless and those on food stamps can get government ID's for free. Everyone else has to pay like $20 or something.

Fair enough, you're state has it right.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12458 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 1331 times:

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 12):
He should never have been asked questions about his private life - sex between consenting adults is no-one else's business.

I think the intersting thing relative to this thread is that the conservatives were happy to grind the government to a halt over a lie about a blow job. Now we've heard GOP members in Congress talk about F&F has a body count, almost gleeful in the fact that they can justify their witch hunt, when they should be saddened by it. It's almost like these conspiracies give them a "drug like rush" that they are totally addicted to.

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 12):
Reagan was selling missiles to the Iranian government, a sworn and declared enemy of America! And directly rewarding terrorism. Nothing on Obama's watch touches this, sorry.

Yep, as above, Watergate and Iran/Contra are far more serious than the incompetence of F&F and Clinton's BJ.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 11):
Conspiracy theorists tend to fall into either the hippy fight-the-power anarchists on the left wing or gun-toting survivalist libertarian militias on the right.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 11):
That and a lot of liberal conspiracy theories focus on businesses and not necessarily the government.
Quoting cedarjet (Reply 12):
OK, now we're getting somewhere, cos yes, it's mostly on the left you'll find people question the official narrative of 9/11.

All good points.

So where do the "hidden world government" / "trilateral commission" conspiracists fall?

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 13):
There was a video in the Moody's downgrade thread about Donald Trump saying that Obama struck a deal with the Saudi's to increase oil supply thus dropping the price which will help in his re-election. Now if that isn't batsh*t I don't know what is.

Interestingly enough, there was the actual Arab Oil Embargo of the 70s, which I suppose feeds this kind of theory. Some of the manifestations of that did go beyond the pale and into the relm of the folkloric, such as the alleged video of large oil companies dumping oil in the desert, which I never did see.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3360 posts, RR: 9
Reply 17, posted (2 years 2 months 1 week 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 1307 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 16):
Interestingly enough, there was the actual Arab Oil Embargo of the 70s, which I suppose feeds this kind of theory. Some of the manifestations of that did go beyond the pale and into the relm of the folkloric, such as the alleged video of large oil companies dumping oil in the desert, which I never did see.

There was, but was there any evidence that any high ranking US government official had struck a deal with Arab nations to reduce oil supply for their personal benefit. That is what Trump thinks only the opposite in the present time.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
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