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How Can A Third Party Win?  
User currently offlineAlias1024 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2745 posts, RR: 2
Posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2508 times:

There are many smaller political parties in the United States, with the Green Party and Libertarian Party being two of the most prominent, but none of these smaller parties has managed to gain any sort of momentum toward becoming a challenger to the current two parties that dominate. So how can they make up that gap and get to where their candidates are mentioned as viable candidates for major races like the presidency, U.S. Senate, House of Representatives etc...?

I'd be interested to hear any ideas for how these smaller, less well known parties can split this current duopoly the Democrats and Republicans have over the levers of power in our government.


It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
58 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15718 posts, RR: 26
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2495 times:

Quoting Alias1024 (Thread starter):
So how can they make up that gap and get to where their candidates are mentioned as viable candidates for major races like the presidency, U.S. Senate, House of Representatives etc...?

They can't.

Quoting Alias1024 (Thread starter):
I'd be interested to hear any ideas for how these smaller, less well known parties can split this current duopoly the Democrats and Republicans have over the levers of power in our government.

They don't need to. The American system isn't built that way. The duopoly likely won't change much and it doesn't need to.

See there's a fundamental bit of idiocy that seems pervasive among voters and commentators: the fallacy that party is anything more than a party. American political parties are non-ideological. They don't stand for anything other than winning elections. In short they're like record labels, even likening them to a brand is stretching it. Get ten Republicans in the same room and chances are some of them will hate the guts of some of the others. Same for Democrats. When you go on iTunes you get the artist you want, not the record label you want and you should do the same with politicians.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9776 posts, RR: 27
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2476 times:
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Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
See there's a fundamental bit of idiocy that seems pervasive among voters and commentators: the fallacy that party is anything more than a party. American political parties are non-ideological. They don't stand for anything other than winning elections. In short they're like record labels, even likening them to a brand is stretching it. Get ten Republicans in the same room and chances are some of them will hate the guts of some of the others. Same for Democrats. When you go on iTunes you get the artist you want, not the record label you want and you should do the same with politicians.

While true, it's also pretty much fact that a politician has to adopt party views and pander to said party in order to even get as far as the primary, never mind being the nominee.

So you're basically able to buy whatever music the record label decides to support and promote (which we all know is not necessarily a sign of good music), and you never hear many different bands and artists that might be really good and different; you have to find them on an indie label or whatever.

Funny how analogous that is - I never thought about it before.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlinecmf From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2461 times:

Quoting Alias1024 (Thread starter):
So how can they make up that gap and get to where their candidates are mentioned as viable candidates for major races like the presidency, U.S. Senate, House of Representatives etc...?

It is all about voters feeling they are not throwing away a vote. Essentially there are two ways. The first is to build it up from the ground. Become viable in local elections. With enough of them become viable in state elections. With it comes national elections. A lot of time.

The second way is opportunistic. Something where the established parties insist on pushing through something big without support from voters. I don't find this scenario likely.


User currently offlinejpetekyxmd80 From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 4378 posts, RR: 27
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 2455 times:

A third party candidate can also win a certain election, at any level really, but a third party cannot rise up to be competitive in the long run. That's just not what how it works in our system. If a third party does rise, it will eventually supplant one of the current parties.

Individuals can win elections, but duopoly will always exist in the long run.



The Best Care in the Air, 1984-2009
User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2441 times:

Quoting Alias1024 (Thread starter):
There are many smaller political parties in the United States, with the Green Party and Libertarian Party being two of the most prominent, but none of these smaller parties has managed to gain any sort of momentum toward becoming a challenger to the current two parties that dominate. So how can they make up that gap and get to where their candidates are mentioned as viable candidates for major races like the presidency, U.S. Senate, House of Representatives etc...?



You know what the biggest obstacle for Libertarians is? Libertarians.


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39695 posts, RR: 75
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2438 times:

Quoting Alias1024 (Thread starter):
I'd be interested to hear any ideas for how these smaller, less well known parties can split this current duopoly the Democrats and Republicans have over the levers of power in our government.

You should love former President George W Bush.
Green Party candidate Ralph Nader split the anti-Bush vote and siphoned off votes from Al Gore in New Hampshire and Florida thus allowing Dubya to win.
So you see, the third parties are more powerful than you think.

Not all Democrats are on the same page and not all Republicans are on the same page.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11533 posts, RR: 15
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2437 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
Quoting Alias1024 (Thread starter):So how can they make up that gap and get to where their candidates are mentioned as viable candidates for major races like the presidency, U.S. Senate, House of Representatives etc...?
They can't.

They can by taking money out of elections. But, those that have that in place (Republicans and Democrats) will never ever EVER get rid of money from elections. If money were taken out of elections, people would actually have to read and think and elect other parties. The two parties in power do not want that. They want their gravy train. They know a good thing when they see it and keeping the American populace dumb is just fine for them.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15718 posts, RR: 26
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2422 times:

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 2):
So you're basically able to buy whatever music the record label decides to support and promote (which we all know is not necessarily a sign of good music),

The bad ones get exposed and don't stick around.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 2):
you never hear many different bands and artists that might be really good and different

The good ones all get signed and become the big label acts.

Quoting jpetekyxmd80 (Reply 4):
A third party candidate can also win a certain election, at any level really, but a third party cannot rise up to be competitive in the long run.

They'll get absorbed by one of the two parties. Whoever it is that the people liked enough to vote for is still there.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 7):
They can by taking money out of elections.

Actually the way to do it would be to divide up seats by party like some other countries do. Of course the beauty of the American system is that it keeps the nuts out. Crazy environmentalists, Communists, Skinheads, etc. all have zero chance of even becoming a county road commissioner.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 7):
f money were taken out of elections, people would actually have to read and think and elect other parties.

I don't know what your ballots look like, but every time I vote it's names that are on the ballot and people that I'm voting for.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinevikkyvik From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 9776 posts, RR: 27
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 2421 times:
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Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
The bad ones get exposed and don't stick around.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
The good ones all get signed and become the big label acts.

I would strongly disagree with both those statements.

1.) There are plenty of bad artists around, and many of them are stars.
2.) There are plenty of good artists around who haven't been signed to a major label, and never will.

Both of those points are matters of opinion, but so is politics, so it still works.

Major labels don't pick GOOD artists. They pick MARKETABLE artists. Again, the similarity to politics is amazing.



"Two and a Half Men" was filmed in front of a live ostrich.
User currently offlineseb146 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 11533 posts, RR: 15
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 2361 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
I don't know what your ballots look like, but every time I vote it's names that are on the ballot and people that I'm voting for.

It's the run-up to elections that I am talking about. Look how much money Romney is sinking into his campaign with his "bus tour". He is able to fly to different events and stage buses. Then, there are all the commercials and robo-calls.

During our primaries here in California, the day before and day of the election, we had commercials for and against prop 29, raising taxes on tobacco to pay for cancer research. Out of six commercials, four of them would be about this. Every day in the mail I was getting at least 2 flyers about it. How much money does that cost?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
Crazy environmentalists, Communists, Skinheads, etc. all have zero chance of even becoming a county road commissioner.

Two part response:

1. Just like the tea people, not every single one of them are crazy. Just the loud and obnoxious ones. The non-crazy ones sometimes have good ideas.
2. If they don't have good ideas, others will help shape the crazy idea and compromise until it becomes something we can all agree on.



Life in the wall is a drag.
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8790 posts, RR: 24
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2353 times:

Quoting Alias1024 (Thread starter):
I'd be interested to hear any ideas for how these smaller, less well known parties can split this current duopoly the Democrats and Republicans have over the levers of power in our government.

It would need a Constitutional Amendment, which would allow proportional representation state-wide, rather than individual district-by district elections. You would no longer vote for a particular person, but for a Party, and if 10% of California voted for the Libertarian list, then the Libertarian Party would nominate 10% of California's 53 seats. (obviously rounding is an issue to sort out).

That's pretty much the only way to overcome the current 2-party system.

The only other way is if one of the two parties implode. That is how the Republican Party got started. Prior to the GOP, it was the Democrats against the Whigs, and the Whig Party imploded because of the slavery issue. The Democrats supported slavery, as did many in the Whig leadership. The anti-slavery Whigs finally split away to form the Republican Party, and the former Whig leadership was left without anyone to lead, and died off.

But it took nearly a decade after that for the GOP to win its first presidential election (Lincoln). That was the discussion about the Tea Party - if it actually became a proper party, I think it would probably eventually become huge - a party that cares simply about Constitutional limits and fiscal responsibility and not weighed down by all the Social Conservatism would find supporters from both Democrats and Republicans. But if that were to happen, the chaos that followed would mean the Democrats control the country for at least another decade (The GOP won't die quietly), and that is something we simply cannot afford at this point. That is why the Tea Party conversion to an actual party never gained any momentum



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlinePHLBOS From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7511 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 2345 times:

Exerpt of my post from seb146's "Voters: What Would Happen If..." thread http://www.airliners.net/aviation-fo...ms/non_aviation/read.main/2433897/, which could easily apply for this thread:

In recent history, Ross Perot has been the only Independent/3rd party candidate to actually trigger a "snap-shot" poll during the '92 campaign that if the election were held when that poll was taken (June); his presence in the race would deny both President Bush (41) and then-Governor Bill Clinton of the needed 270 electoral votes. Perot's reaction to that poll (he dropped out the the race but later re-entered roughly 2 months later), in retrospect, was the biggest mistake he made in his political campaign/career. Had he continued his campaign in full force; then a vote for Perot would've indeed been viewed as a vote for Perot rather than (as most believed) a spoiler vote for Clinton.

In 2000, the Florida recount issue aside; many viewed Green Party Ralph Nader's presence in the race as a spolier vote for Bush 43 and Reform Party Pat Buchanan's presence as a spoiler vote for Gore. That's probably one case where one had two different 3rd party spoilers essentially cancelling each other out.

Nonetheless, if a 3rd party/Independent wants to actually get elected President in 2016; they pretty much have to start laying the groundwork for a campaign this year.



"TransEastern! You'll feel like you've never left the ground because we treat you like dirt!" SNL Parady ad circa 1981
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8188 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2322 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 8):
Of course the beauty of the American system is that it keeps the nuts out.

Ya gotta be kidding!

Look at the flakes in Congress right now.

Quoting vikkyvik (Reply 9):
I would strongly disagree with both those statements.

1.) There are plenty of bad artists around, and many of them are stars.
2.) There are plenty of good artists around who haven't been signed to a major label, and never will.

Now that is the truth. We say The Jersey Boys this past week and the talent on stage was outstanding. It was a Broadway touring company and, when the tour is over, it will be back to hitting the auditions. Probably asking if you want fries with that until you hit the next job. (Outstanding show, BTW. Try to see it if you get the chance.)


User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39695 posts, RR: 75
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2305 times:

Quoting PHLBOS (Reply 12):
In 2000, the Florida recount issue aside; many viewed Green Party Ralph Nader's presence in the race as a spolier vote for Bush 43 and Reform Party Pat Buchanan's presence as a spoiler vote for Gore. That's probably one case where one had two different 3rd party spoilers essentially cancelling each other out.

Buchanan's support wasn't large enough to cancel out Ralph Nader.
Ralph Nader was winning 4 - 5 % in Florida & New Hampshire. 2/3rds of all Nader supporters said they would have voted for Gore had Nader not ran. 2/3rds of the 84,000+ Nader votes won in Florida would be more than enough to overtake the 537 vote margin the US Supreme Court allowed Dubya to have.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15718 posts, RR: 26
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2290 times:

Quoting seb146 (Reply 10):
How much money does that cost?

It's not my money so I don't care.

Quoting seb146 (Reply 10):
Just like the tea people, not every single one of them are crazy.

The ones that aren't are just everyday politicians.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 13):
Ya gotta be kidding!

Look at the flakes in Congress right now.

Then tell me how many seats the Communist party won in the last election.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineAlias1024 From United States of America, joined Oct 2004, 2745 posts, RR: 2
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 month 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2259 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 1):
See there's a fundamental bit of idiocy that seems pervasive among voters and commentators: the fallacy that party is anything more than a party. American political parties are non-ideological. They don't stand for anything other than winning elections.

Then why do they adopt party platforms? Seems ideological to me.

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 11):
It would need a Constitutional Amendment, which would allow proportional representation state-wide, rather than individual district-by district elections.

Why would proportional representation state-wide be necessary? Why couldn't you see a majority caucus built in the House of Representatives or Senate around members from multiple parties in our system?



It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2710 posts, RR: 8
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 month 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 2253 times:

Quoting Alias1024 (Thread starter):
How Can A Third Party Win?

They can win on a local level but at the National level it would take some time. The two main parties would have to fracture fighting for control like with the Tea Party slowly changing the RNC. If the far right get's tired of the RNC RINO's they can break away.



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15718 posts, RR: 26
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 month 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2233 times:

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 16):
Then why do they adopt party platforms?

To get the name and support of the right people.

Quoting Alias1024 (Reply 16):
Seems ideological to me.

It's not. First, what single meaningful parameter could you use to rank a politician? There isn't one. They can be right wing on one issue and left wing on another. There is no way you can look at anything about a politician and use that to throw them into some bin. And chances are you could use some other equally valid, or invalid really, classification and put them into a completely different bin with different people who may be diametrically opposed on some other issue.

Secondly, it isn't even a continuum. Other than the impossibility of finding a catch-all, meaningful way of classification, you can't even rank people where Republicans begin where Democrats end. There would actually be a ton of overlap. It's just a big blob.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3354 posts, RR: 9
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 month 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 2189 times:

Quoting Alias1024 (Thread starter):
So how can they make up that gap and get to where their candidates are mentioned as viable candidates for major races like the presidency, U.S. Senate, House of Representatives etc...?

The US system isn't really designed for it as their is no minority option available in a general election. If no party hits 270 then the new congress decided the president through state delegations.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelfth..._to_the_United_States_Constitution

You can potentially get a minority situation in congress where no one party has a majority and there is a balance of power such as parliamentary systems. This is very viable.

Quoting Superfly (Reply 6):
Green Party candidate Ralph Nader split the anti-Bush vote and siphoned off votes from Al Gore in New Hampshire and Florida thus allowing Dubya to win.

If Ron Paul were to enter the race this year as an Independent then the same thing could happen to the GOP.

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 5):
You know what the biggest obstacle for Libertarians is? Libertarians.

  

A lot of them are actually anarchists.



Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineLMP737 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2076 times:

Quoting StarAC17 (Reply 19):


A lot of them are actually anarchists.

You know what they say about libertarianism, it's anarchy for rich people. Or my personal favorite, everyone is a libertarian when they have a job. Reminds me of a family memeber who claims to be a libertarian who also collected unemployment for almost a year. Irony.


User currently offlineakiss20 From United States of America, joined Sep 2007, 603 posts, RR: 5
Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days 1 hour ago) and read 2061 times:

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 20):
Reminds me of a family memeber who claims to be a libertarian who also collected unemployment for almost a year. Irony.

I think the word you are looking for is "hypocrisy"



Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39695 posts, RR: 75
Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days ago) and read 2046 times:

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 5):
You know what the biggest obstacle for Libertarians is? Libertarians.



What's wrong with Libertarians?
Here is the only Libertarian I ever voted for; 'Starchild'.
Starchild is the most prominent, conservative/libertarian voice in San Francisco.
Starchild simply wants the government off his back.

Quoting LMP737 (Reply 20):
You know what they say about libertarianism, it's anarchy for rich people. Or my personal favorite, everyone is a libertarian when they have a job. Reminds me of a family memeber who claims to be a libertarian who also collected unemployment for almost a year. Irony.



To be fair, very few people are "pure Democrat" or "pure Republican" so it's unfair to beat up on Libertarians for not being "pure Libertarian".
I know lots of people who are unemployed Libertarians. Most of your Occupy Wall Street crowd are your unemployed Libertarians. They are the social Libertarians.



Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineDreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 8790 posts, RR: 24
Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 month 3 days ago) and read 2038 times:

Quoting Superfly (Reply 22):
I know lots of people who are unemployed Libertarians. Most of your Occupy Wall Street crowd are your unemployed Libertarians. They are the social Libertarians.

You can't want free stuff from the government and be a Libertarian.



Veni Vidi Castratavi Illegitimos
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 39695 posts, RR: 75
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 month 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 2030 times:

Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 23):
You can't want free stuff from the government and be a Libertarian.

Notice how I said "social" Libertarians, not 'fiscal' conservatives.



Bring back the Concorde
25 ER757 : And yet they stick together like glue when voting on bills in congress. Over the last eight to ten years, votes in congress have been almost uniforml
26 Superfly : Well they can only vote 'Yay' or 'Ney'.
27 aa757first : I think Bloomberg would have a pretty decent shot if he were to run. He has a strong name and could probably finance his campaign using just his own f
28 Superfly : Bloomberg is a frikkin' lunatic that should be put in away in an insane asylum! Where have you been lately?
29 aa757first : I'm not saying I like him. I'm saying he might be popular enough with the general population to be at least a viable candidate.
30 canoecarrier : I'd argue you're both wrong. In May of 1992 Ross Perot was ahead in the presidential polls in Texas and California running as a third party candidate
31 ER757 : Well of course, but my point is that they ALL vote the same way as a party.
32 Mir : In politics they do stick around, for a couple of reasons. First is the fact that, unlike the music industry, where you can get exposed at any time,
33 Superfly : That's not true at all. Bloomberg is ab out as popular as a used 32oz big gulp at the bottom of a trash heap. He embodies everything that is wrong bo
34 aa757first : You could be right, but I think there's enough of a chance for him to seriously consider a run. Even if he didn't win a single electoral vote, he'd s
35 BMI727 : The thing is that they haven't. There is plenty of crossover and with so many issues at hand you simply cannot divide politicians into two bins in an
36 Mir : Not from the national media. You can't just request any song you want from a radio station. Are you trying to objectively measure art? By that logic,
37 BMI727 : The parallel cannot apply to incumbency at all really. For a challenger to win, most voters have to believe that the challenger will do a better job
38 Mir : And anyone who knows music will tell you that whether people like something, at its time of production, is completely irrelevant to how good it is. Y
39 vikkyvik : Ahhh, I think I see what you're saying, and I actually agree with you. I read articles about artists' record sales, and then read the comments on the
40 BMI727 : The point is that "record while in office" can only be used to determine whether or not you think someone is a success, not an objective measure of s
41 QXatFAT : And when you lose that job, you become a Democrat with your hand held out. A 3rd party could never win in an election because we only ever allow 2 pa
42 StarAC17 : Perot might have been a contender in 1992 but unless there is an change in the Electoral college so a 3rd party or the two major ones can still secur
43 Superfly : Ron Paul ran as a Libertarian in 1988. His best showing was in Alaska where he won 2.74% of the vote. His campaign did receive some attention after G
44 LMP737 : Interesting choice of words. Tell a self proclaimed Libertarian that, or try telling them that. You either get a long drawn out rant or a deer in the
45 Post contains images LMP737 : Stalin murdered millions of his own people, imprisoned millions more and all the others lived in fear of having it happen to them. Bloomberg signed a
46 Post contains images DeltaMD90 : I consider myself a moderate libertarian. There are a couple ideas that are conservative (and neither libertarian nor liberal) that I like, and there
47 1337Delta764 : I'd disagree with this statement, specifically with the Democrats. For example, you NEVER hear of any pro-life Democrats (unlike pro-choice Republica
48 PHLBOS : That above-scenario you describe for a Bloomberg candidacy would paint him as a spoiler (for Obama if he ran this year) rather than an actual alterna
49 Post contains images Superfly : About 1/3rd of all Democrats in Congress vote anti-abortion consistently but the press plays that down.
50 Post contains images QXatFAT : As a Libertarian, you don't know what in the world you are talking about. Superfly is correct. Just like there are some on both sides that are not 10
51 ltbewr : One problem that usually destroys any significant 3rd parties is that eventually one of the two major parties take on some of their key beliefs, espec
52 DeltaMD90 : I meant many non-libertarians thought he was extreme. Just ask some of the posters here...
53 QXatFAT : Noted now...non-libertarians would put him in the category of extreme. I would say though if Republicans realized what true conservatism is, they wou
54 DeltaMD90 : That's what I wish a 3rd party would really do. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see a 3rd party come and stay or even replace one of the 2 parties no
55 StarAC17 : I'm having problems following what you are saying here, as the democrats hardly walk in lock step. The party might have a platform but not all democr
56 LMP737 : First, thank you for proving what I said earlier about Libertarians. Second, I assure you while you may call yourself a libertarian you are not. And
57 NASCARAirforce : More effective was Ross Perot in 1992 in taking away a lot of Republican votes from Bush Sr. Ron Paul should run as a Libertarian, he has quite a fol
58 Superfly : Perot siphoned off votes from Clinton too. Although Perot was fiscally conservative, he was more liberal than Clinton on social issues (at least more
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