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Here Comes The ObamaCare Decision  
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8433 posts, RR: 9
Posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 6596 times:

Thursday looks like the day we will finally get a Supreme Court Decision on Health Care Reform.

The biggest single question is obviously on The Mandate. Based on Mitt Romney's Mandate, The Mandate is one of those queer legislative bits that makes the Health Insurance Industry happy and the conservatives (not associated with the health insurance industry) unhappy.

Of course the SCOTUS can strike down the entire law, which would also be interesting as it puts the job of thinking of something else on the GOP - who probably can't think that far. They get confused about the US having the most expensive medical care in the world, but 20+ countries have better outcomes.

My bets? Thomas goes against the entire Act - his wife is simply paid too much for anything else.


Scalia goes against the entire Act - he so publicly have Obama (especially with his rantings this week) that he is incompetent to do anything else.

The Liberals on the Court will support it.

The possible tilt will be Roberts who faces some major decisions. Will he stay with his conservative roots and ensure future invitations to conservative social events, or will he focus the decision without considering the political fallout of being totally independent on this huge issue.

My bet is that Roberts holds the Act together in general terms, with the Mandate in doubt.

My preference is that the Act stays, but the mandate goes, allowing for a public option that competes with private policies. The private health insurance industry has proven that they are incapable of delivering better care at the same costs - their Medicare Advantage is 15% more expensive than the Medicare.

268 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineeinsteinboricua From Puerto Rico, joined Apr 2010, 3312 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 6575 times:

You beat me to it. I was actually gonna open a poll to see how people here think the decision will come.


"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
User currently offlinewindy95 From United States of America, joined Dec 2008, 2748 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 6539 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
The Mandate is one of those queer legislative bits that makes the Health Insurance Industry happy and the conservatives (not associated with the health insurance industry) unhappy.
Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
as it puts the job of thinking of something else on the GOP - who probably can't think that far
Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
They get confused about the US having the most expensive medical care in the world,
Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
his wife is simply paid too much for anything else.
Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
that he is incompetent to do anything else.

Cannot even get through the opening of the thread without all the insult's.  



OMG-Obama Must Go
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7972 posts, RR: 51
Reply 3, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 6539 times:

Well whether you support it or not (I agree, healthcare needs a major reform of some sort) don't we want to do it at least Constitutionally? I'm just throwing that question out there before this thread becomes very partisan. It could be the best law in the world, but do we want it going against the Constitution?

We'll see what the court says tomorrow. I predict that no matter what happens, either conservatives will say the court is run by liberal activists or liberals will say they were bought off lol   



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21801 posts, RR: 55
Reply 4, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 6522 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 3):
Well whether you support it or not (I agree, healthcare needs a major reform of some sort) don't we want to do it at least Constitutionally?

Of course. Which is why the case went to the Supreme Court.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7859 posts, RR: 19
Reply 5, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 6511 times:

Mandate will be struck down, everything else that doesn't force anything down our throats will stay. Coin toss for the stuff that gets shoved down our throats.


我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5737 posts, RR: 10
Reply 6, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 6504 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 3):
Well whether you support it or not (I agree, healthcare needs a major reform of some sort) don't we want to do it at least Constitutionally? I'm just throwing that question out there before this thread becomes very partisan. It could be the best law in the world, but do we want it going against the Constitution?

I was always a supporter of the Republican individual mandate concept when they crafted it back in the 90's and am fine with it here. I guess it could have simply been made it a tax that you could have credited/adjusted with proper proof of eligible insurance coverage. But dancing around what is essentially just wording is, to me at least, nuts. I understand the "constitutional" issue, but if that is all people object to then why don't the legislators just make the change.

I do believe that the Republican's failed the nation big time by not being fully engaged in the discussions and creating a good universal healthcare access system. I am sure had they participated the resulting legislation would have been better. But of course any Republican was soundly beat into the ground by the press and talking heads and forced to retract any real support.

Business should not be the primary insurer, competition between healthcare providers and for healthcare customers must be maintained, those customers must bear some direct portion if the costs involved, and everyone must be able to get some level of coverage but you do get everything covered at the "base" level.

This is one of the most important things that the nation must address and instead we argue about what is essentially semantics or threaten to rescind the whole thing.

Tugg

[Edited 2012-06-27 16:52:41]


I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineJetBlueGuy2006 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1663 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 6496 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
Scalia goes against the entire Act - he so publicly have Obama (especially with his rantings this week) that he is incompetent to do anything else.

This is where I think a lot of credibility of the court comes into question. Everyone knows the court is split 4/4, but for a United States Supreme Court Justice to sit up on the bench and talk about things outside of the questions in front of the court? (The case had nothing to do with the current administration in its handling of immigration, but if Arizona had the legal/constitutional right to enforce immigration)

I think it will break this way:

Against the entire law - Thomas/Scalia/Alito
For the Entire Law - Breyer/Ginsburg/Sotomayor/Kagan

As stated above, it will come down to Roberts and Kennedy. I think they will probably invalidate the mandate, but uphold a lot of the rest. Whatever the outcome, both sides will most likely be unhappy because it is not all they wanted.

How this plays into the election is anyones guess, but it seems to me that instead of talking about the economy alone, the election will also center around the Supreme Court and Immigration.



Home Airport: Capital Region International Airport (KLAN)
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8433 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 6470 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 3):
don't we want to do it at least Constitutionally?

What did the Founding Fathers come up with for the health of the Nation in the Constitution?

The reality is that the Founding Fathers had no knowledge of the levels of medicine that would be available in Modern America. Nor could it have anticipated the realities of Modern America when it came to the massive costs related to health care, especially when compared to countries that have better outcomes at far less a cost.

When it comes to the health of the Nation I doubt if many Americans want to go back to the standards our Founding Fathers suffered under. I also doubt if most Americans are happy with being pretty far down the list when it comes to outcomes.

Finally, I believe that, if the SCOTUS was to toss out the entire Act, they will in reality be sentencing Americans to death.

Sounds drastic until you realize that the US is 22nd in Infant Mortality - tied with Cuba. Bloody Cuba.


User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13704 posts, RR: 61
Reply 9, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 6467 times:
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Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
My preference is that the Act stays, but the mandate goes, allowing for a public option that competes with private policies.

There's a bigger question; severability. Will SCOTUS allow the entire law to stand if one part is gutted? I have a feeling they may tell Congress "Sorry, try again" on this one since there are so many controversial parts to it.

My predictions:

- Mandate is ruled unconstitutional; The Constitution gives Congress the power to regulate interstate commerce, but not the power to force a non-buyer to become a buyer.

- When the mandate is ruled unconstitutional, the entire law is struck down as Congress intended each of its parts to work together.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlinecedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8171 posts, RR: 54
Reply 10, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 6454 times:

Whatever the decision, the US needs to massively change the way it runs it's healthcare system. Number 38 in the world for life expectancy is terrible considering it's number 1 for expenditure, average cost per person is nearly $8,000 / yr, whereas the citizens of most of the countries ahead of you in life expectancy only pay c. $3,000 / yr. Expressed another way, the health care industry makes up c. 17% of the US GDP, whereas elsewhere it's usually under, or around, 10%. One of the main differences is all the piggies with their snout in the trough. I don't know why any American would want to keep the system as it is. There are reasons I would like to live in the US but I thank god every single day that my home is in a country where healthcare is not for profit.


fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5737 posts, RR: 10
Reply 11, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 6452 times:

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 9):
There's a bigger question; severability.
[....]
- Mandate is ruled unconstitutional; The Constitution gives Congress the power to regulate interstate commerce, but not the power to force a non-buyer to become a buyer.

- When the mandate is ruled unconstitutional, the entire law is struck down as Congress intended each of its parts to work together.

Lack of a clause does not mean that something cannot be severed and survive. It is as easy as I mentioned, the legislature merely creates the "mandate cost" as a tax that is fully avoidable with proof of insurance.

This could easily be done.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20242 posts, RR: 59
Reply 12, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 6448 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 3):
Well whether you support it or not (I agree, healthcare needs a major reform of some sort) don't we want to do it at least Constitutionally? I'm just throwing that question out there before this thread becomes very partisan. It could be the best law in the world, but do we want it going against the Constitution?

The constitution doesn't say anything about this. Generally speaking, most constitutional law has held that if the federal government cannot do something, nor can the states. Since nobody struck down an individual mandate in any state that had one, I'd argue it's constitutional.

Quoting tugger (Reply 6):
I was always a supporter of the Republican individual mandate concept when they crafted it back in the 90's and am fine with it here.

And what I don't get is how so many so-called "Conservatives" now who are all for "individual responsibility" can be blindly following what is said by the EXACT SAME PEOPLE WHO CAME UP WITH THE IDEA. Romney pretty much wrote this law. Obama cribbed it from him. If this were a college class, Obama would be kicked out for plagiarism. And yet it's Romney now running around saying that this is the worst idea since Naziism. Hey, Mitt! It's YOUR idea!

Don't you understand that the GOP opposition to this has nothing to do with the Constitution and everything to do with the fact that Obama put the law forward? This is not about the Constitution; this is about how much the GOP hates Obama.


User currently offlinetexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4284 posts, RR: 52
Reply 13, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 6438 times:

My bet is that it is one of the longest documents released by the Supreme Court. Expect an opinion, 4-5 concurring opinions--my bet is on the law being upheld and found constitutional by a vote of 6-3 or 7-2 with Roberts assigning himself the majority opinion so that he can limit the bill as much as possible while still upholding it. Kennedy, Sotomayor, Breyer, Ginsburg and Kagan all join in the judgment but write separately. Alito I think will concur in the judgment, concur in part and dissent in part and write separately. That's a possibility for Kennedy too. Thomas dissents. Scalia most likely dissents although there is a slight possibility of him concurring in the judgment and dissenting in part. And the mandate stays. But that's just my opinion and reading of the Court.

I think Roberts votes in the majority because he understands the public perception of the Court and doesn't want his tenure as C.J. to be seen as completely partisan. If he votes in favour, then he is seen as being more moderate. It also serves to give him more breathing room in other cases to overturn bills that conflict with his agenda--let's not pretend Chief Justices don't have agendas, they all have.

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8433 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 6433 times:

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 9):
Will SCOTUS allow the entire law to stand if one part is gutted?

I would be pretty surprised if the entire law is tossed out.

It would basically mean that the Court has re-written current law on issues like pre-existing conditions.

I can See Thomas or Scalia going that route, but believe more realistic Conservatives would gag on going that far.

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 10):
the US needs to massively change the way it runs it's healthcare system.

We do a lot of things right, but it isn't that hard to find where we have problems - just follow the money.


User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7972 posts, RR: 51
Reply 15, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days ago) and read 6375 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 8):
The reality is that the Founding Fathers had no knowledge of the levels of medicine that would be available in Modern America. Nor could it have anticipated the realities of Modern America when it came to the massive costs related to health care, especially when compared to countries that have better outcomes at far less a cost.
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 12):
The constitution doesn't say anything about this. Generally speaking, most constitutional law has held that if the federal government cannot do something, nor can the states. Since nobody struck down an individual mandate in any state that had one, I'd argue it's constitutional.

I'm not talking about providing healthcare, I'm talking about the way this bill is, Constitutionally.

My personal opinion, for what it's worth: I think this law is kind of a mess. Some parts of it seem unconsitutional, but I am not a law student. The bill was ambitious, but I think it could have been much much better. I'd be happy to see it struck down and replaced with the GOP's version but... they don't have one! They really dropped the ball IMO.

I don't care if they were for a mandate before and all that jazz, I really don't, it doesn't matter. It's kinda hypocritical but I don't care. What I do care about is their plan. Strike down Obamacare, fine, but replace it with what? If they put together a plan, it probably would NOT pass with this congress, but it could at least show the American people a plan B and if they liked it, vote GOP in November!

What we have now really is a vote for a marginally run (IMO) healthcare bill or a vote to kill it... that is, if the Supreme Court doesn't do so, give us some options, GOP!



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13704 posts, RR: 61
Reply 16, posted (2 years 5 months 2 days ago) and read 6375 times:
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Quoting tugger (Reply 11):
Lack of a clause does not mean that something cannot be severed and survive. It is as easy as I mentioned, the legislature merely creates the "mandate cost" as a tax that is fully avoidable with proof of insurance.

This could easily be done.

How? SCOTUS doesn't get to write law, just interpret it. They cannot send it back to Congress with a "hey, just add this and it'll be okay" piece.



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20242 posts, RR: 59
Reply 17, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 6349 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 16):
I don't care if they were for a mandate before and all that jazz, I really don't, it doesn't matter. It's kinda hypocritical but I don't care. What I do care about is their plan. Strike down Obamacare, fine, but replace it with what? If they put together a plan, it probably would NOT pass with this congress, but it could at least show the American people a plan B and if they liked it, vote GOP in November!

Yes, well that would be the reasonable thing to do, wouldn't it?

Instead, they are simply focused on opposing whatever Obama does.


User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5737 posts, RR: 10
Reply 18, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 6334 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 16):
The bill was ambitious, but I think it could have been much much better. I'd be happy to see it struck down and replaced with the GOP's version but... they don't have one! They really dropped the ball IMO.

  

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 16):
What I do care about is their plan. Strike down Obamacare, fine, but replace it with what?

  

Quoting EA CO AS (Reply 17):
They cannot send it back to Congress with a "hey, just add this and it'll be okay" piece.

Actually that is exactly what can happen and it does happen all the time when courts review laws. A severability clause is not a required clause in order for a law to have parts "severed", a.k.a. ruled to be not valid (for whatever reason), while the rest of the law still stands. With that said, a severability clause is a good idea as it removes the ability of the courts to just strike the entire law due to one part being ruled against.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlineSuperfly From Thailand, joined May 2000, 40033 posts, RR: 74
Reply 19, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6291 times:

If Sonya Sotomeyer rules against Obamacare, will the media start calling her a White Latino?


Bring back the Concorde
User currently offlineEA CO AS From United States of America, joined Nov 2001, 13704 posts, RR: 61
Reply 20, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 6278 times:
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Quoting DocLightning (Reply 12):
Since nobody struck down an individual mandate in any state that had one, I'd argue it's constitutional.

Question; did anyone SPECIFICALLY argue that point at a state level?



"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan
User currently offlineStarAC17 From Canada, joined Aug 2003, 3401 posts, RR: 9
Reply 21, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 6256 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
The possible tilt will be Roberts who faces some major decisions. Will he stay with his conservative roots and ensure future invitations to conservative social events, or will he focus the decision without considering the political fallout of being totally independent on this huge issue.

My bet is that Roberts holds the Act together in general terms, with the Mandate in doubt.

Well based on Roberts siding with corporate interests basically 100% of the time IIRC. This gives insurers 50 million more customers and government subsidies for people who can't afford it essentially. Insurance companies don't hate the mandate, what they hate I reckon is that they have to be forced to cover people that will cost them more through no fault of their own.

Quoting Ken777 (Thread starter):
My preference is that the Act stays, but the mandate goes, allowing for a public option that competes with private policies. The private health insurance industry has proven that they are incapable of delivering better care at the same costs - their Medicare Advantage is 15% more expensive than the Medicare.

This is where I find the US unique in the fact that private companies cry foul that the government may provide the same service as a lesser cost basically because the profit motive is not required for a government program and they should be breaking even. If Americans want cost lowered more competition is the best way to do it.

However look at it this way, is it wrong if my competitors shareholders demand a 10% return and my shareholder only want 5%. If costs in this industry are fairly consistent across the board I can simply charge a lower price where my competitor has to lower costs to match my price. This is free market capitalism and this is the best way of reducing costs.

Quoting tugger (Reply 6):
I was always a supporter of the Republican individual mandate concept when they crafted it back in the 90's and am fine with it here. I guess it could have simply been made it a tax that you could have credited/adjusted with proper proof of eligible insurance coverage.

Basically what every other developed country has. A two-tier single payer option but private insurance is encouraged by the government to make them more efficient and you get a tax credit for it. In Australia its tax time and their are a bunch of ads to show when you file your return that you have private health insurance and your Medicare tax is reduced.

You also can use both systems.

Where I would criticize the Canadian system is the two tier option isn't implemented fully for the fear of people with the cash will jump the queue. It's only a matter of time before it becomes two tier as well and some provinces have started doing it.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 14):
We do a lot of things right, but it isn't that hard to find where we have problems - just follow the money.

It's for profit, that is the biggest problem.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 15):
I don't care if they were for a mandate before and all that jazz, I really don't, it doesn't matter. It's kinda hypocritical but I don't care. What I do care about is their plan. Strike down Obamacare, fine, but replace it with what? If they put together a plan, it probably would NOT pass with this congress, but it could at least show the American people a plan B and if they liked it, vote GOP in November!

The GOP won't do anything on this in the next 4 months if it gets struck down. If it does get struck down Obama will have to pass any reform by executive order, no doubt he will try and hopefully he has a nothing to lose attitude to show to the American people that I am trying to solve a problem but congress won't let me.

[Edited 2012-06-28 02:23:16]


Engineers Rule The World!!!!!
User currently offlineus330 From United States of America, joined Aug 2000, 3873 posts, RR: 13
Reply 22, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 6203 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 3):
It could be the best law in the world, but do we want it going against the Constitution?

Here's the thing that most people (ie those who haven't been to law school) don't understand about whether something is constitutional or not: it all depends on interpretation and one's theory of the constitution (for example of various theories, wikpedia originalism or textualism). Any lawyer worth their fee should be able to successfully argue that a law is both constitutional and unconstitutional. SCOTUS is not technically bound by prior precedent, and laws that were found to be constitutional by some SCOTUS courts could be found unconstitutional in other SCOTUS eras.

Even legal academia can't agree on whether this law will be found unconstitutional or not.

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 3):
I predict that no matter what happens, either conservatives will say the court is run by liberal activists or liberals will say they were bought off lol

Yep. As I've been telling my friends, the easiest job for the next week will be the editor of a newspaper's op-ed page, since that's what's gonna fill the pages for the next week. The only people who will be happy with this decision, no matter which way it comes out, will be the various 24/7 newsmedia pundits who now have a new topic to rant on about for the next month or so.

Quoting JetBlueGuy2006 (Reply 7):
it will come down to Roberts and Kennedy

Roberts will be authoring the majority opinion.

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 10):
the US needs to massively change the way it runs it's healthcare system

That's a given.

Quoting texan (Reply 13):
I think Roberts votes in the majority because he understands the public perception of the Court and doesn't want his tenure as C.J. to be seen as completely partisan

Good point. Roberts is very aware that this case is the signature case that will be forever associated with his time as chief justice. Outside influences are not supposed to play a role in determining the Court's opinion, but judges are human--and Roberts realizes that the holding of the case will probably play a role in determining the 2012 election.
This case will likely be perceived as a referendum on the Obama presidency as a whole--which puts the court in a very unusual position.


User currently offlinecasinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 4751 posts, RR: 3
Reply 23, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6169 times:

My two thoughts.
The whole law stands will hinge on Roberts decision on the individual mandate.

Otherwise I see no reason for the rest to be found unconstitutional.



or

SCOTUS takes the easy way out and uses the tax issue to push it off for 3 more years.

T- 2 minutes



Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
User currently offlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8433 posts, RR: 9
Reply 24, posted (2 years 5 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 6154 times:

Roberts has, in effect, sided with the Moderate/Liberal side, which is going to allow the Act to stand.

The "mandate" is tossed, but the taxing of people without insurance is upheld. A sideways upholding of the Act.


25 casinterest : CNN is now reporting that the MANDATE PASSED?
26 einsteinboricua : Apparently, the entire law has been upheld.
27 casinterest : Yep 5-4 but now I see what happened. Roberts used Congress's power to tax as justification, not the commerce act. Very interesting twist.
28 einsteinboricua : Reading comments on every news source and Facebook, I can't help but laugh. Even when the SCOTUS has a conservative majority, people are still bitter
29 MSPNWA : Sad day for America. This week has shown that we are a country with no laws. You just make up "laws" as you see fit.
30 Ken777 : From what I can tell is that the mandate is really a tax based issue. The example given was Flood Insurance. There is no law forcing you to take out f
31 casinterest : And now you see it here Hilarously false. It is a ruling made by the Supreme court,
32 mt99 : You can thank GWB appointed Activist Judge Roberts...
33 L-188 : I am going to wait a coupke of more hours until more analysis comes in but before really commenting. But it dies seem that a good portion of american
34 rfields5421 : Obviously you do not understand the Constitution or how the United States is supposed to work. Sad. At least I can hope you are not a citizen and can
35 Post contains links casinterest : Here is the whole decision. http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/11pdf/11-393c3a2.pdf For those upset, please remember the following as printed in the
36 Ken777 : People would have been bitter regardless of how the SCOTUS went. Killing the bill in total would have ensured more Americans died under the pre-Act m
37 Mir : Recently, I've found that the more stridently someone claims to be a defender of the Constitution, the less they actually know about what the Constit
38 DocLightning : Then leave. There are a lot of other countries that won't make you to buy health care. Like India, Sudan, and Iraq.
39 tugger : As I said: But the best thing to me on this is that now that the law stands, it can be improved. As DeltaMD90 noted, the law could and should be bette
40 casinterest : But that is why we have checks and balances. It is also why we have elections for Government offices , and appointments to the Supreme Court. Once Ap
41 D L X : Can't say much about the particular case, but leaving policy decision to elected leaders is WAAAAAAAY better than leaving it to judges at any level.
42 einsteinboricua : Since the law's full force won't come into effect until 2014, should Obama win a second term along with a Democrat majority in both chambers of Congre
43 Rara : Sounds a bit contradictory to me.
44 rfields5421 : But that is the limit on the Courts power. Yes, there are limits to the power of the Supreme Court. As far as our current group of elected leaders -
45 tugger : I understand that. And we don't know. I get tired of the bloviating and hyperventalating that people do over the healthcare law. If you have a better
46 Ken777 : Of course it can, but the GOP is only concerned about repealing the law with some promise of "something better" at "some point in the future". There
47 DocLightning : I haven't heard about "something better." What I've heard is "America has the best healthcare system in the world!" Trouble is, you can claim that, b
48 DeltaMD90 : I think the issue with many (even many democrats) was not that the law was passed, it was the inner workings and content of the law. What I was sayin
49 Post contains images stlgph : One thing is for sure - can't wait for tonight's Daily Show!
50 Ken777 : "Something Better" is simply what the insurance industry writes up and tells the GOP politicians to turn into law. My preference is core care under a
51 DocLightning : That would be OK, but there need to be guarantees that there won't be Medicare pay cuts. EVER. It's one thing to adjust the rate at which future paym
52 texan : This is the most overlooked part of the judgment. Yes, the SC upheld the bill. But both Roberts and the conservative dissent expressed their willingn
53 Post contains links Dreadnought : Just wanted to pipe in and mention that the USSC decision explicitly rejects that Obamacare and the universal mandate falls under the Commerce clause.
54 DocLightning : Ok, fine. It's a tax. It's a tax that can be 100% avoided by buying health insurance which will be less expensive because everyone pays in. OMG the h
55 Post contains images casinterest : But this isn't a middle class tax increase. It is a uniform tax increase. and the tea party is going to have to back off it's unconstitutional claims
56 DocLightning : No they won't. They'll claim that a Socialist court practiced judicial activism. Remember, this isn't about facts. This is about rhetoric.
57 jpetekyxmd80 : Don't bet the ranch, when have they last cared about sounding like morons. They're the self appointed constitutional scholars and they'll be damned i
58 Post contains images casinterest : I like the idea of the commerce clause remaining untouched here, as it did. They kind of texas two stepped it a bit They made the taxation the suppor
59 D L X : I see you waited until Mitch McConnell told you the new spin, but Sen. McConnell is misleading his listeners when he says this. The mandate is not a
60 casinterest : ' Yeah, but this ruling coupled with the potential holder contempt vote is going to give them a lot of problems with their rhetoric come November. A
61 Venus6971 : Congratulations, the goverment will soon be able to have access to your medicle records so it can be entered into a huge database, there will no longe
62 MSPNWA : Where in the Constitution does it grant Congress the power to create an involuntary "tax". This ruling opens the doors to taxation of anything and ev
63 casinterest : Your signature pretty much sums up your rant.
64 Dreadnought : I'm in an office. You think I can watch TV during the day? I haven't seen Sen McConnell in weeks. As you will recall in past discussions, I am a supp
65 Post contains images einsteinboricua : And The Colbert Report...and The Rachel Maddow Show. We all know it is a tax (though that wasn't how it was originally envisioned). I don't think any
66 jpetekyxmd80 : Uh, what? Insurance policies cover you for an infinite amount of things you will probably never use, whats your point? Now that is total bull and you
67 Post contains links Dreadnought : Oh? Social Security Insurance? Medicaid and Medicare? FDIC? Federal Crop Insurance Corporation? National Flood Insurance Program? Pension Benefit Gua
68 jpetekyxmd80 : You know what I mean. Are you going to claim that when "Obamacare" went into law it was a " federal takeover of 1/6th of the economy"? No, it was add
69 Post contains images solnabo : Oooh my God, USA gonna be like Europe: socialism and equal healtcare for everybody, it´s a doomsday for us.. Just heard it on the news from a republi
70 D L X : If the officials that AMERICANS ELECT want to draft these laws, they can. They can also pay the political price. What conservatives need to learn is
71 casinterest : Maybe it will make the GOP more willingful participants in crafting bipartisan laws that make sense than standing in a corner shouting "NO" . and "Yo
72 Ken777 : That is actually pretty easy for Congress to do - they just have to guarantee COLA increases in the future. They could even tie it to the COLA increa
73 EA CO AS : It's also a very large club with which the Romney campaign gets to mercilessly bludgeon candidate Obama until Election Day. And make no mistake, he w
74 casinterest : Possibly, but Romney created his own problem today, He is screaming for full repeal instead of reform. Repeal is not what is needed. We do not need t
75 texan : See, I almost think a reversal of that could happen. Many of the disenchanted Obama supporters could go back to supporting him because of this decisi
76 Zentraedi : Is anyone familiar with the full list of exceptions to the mandate tax? I could just imagine the US government pulling something like requiring paymen
77 FlyPNS1 : Except Romney approved of the same healthcare mandate (or tax) when he was Governor. "The Congress shall have Power to lay and collect Taxes, Duties,
78 jpetekyxmd80 : Oh please, and you call the last 2 years what? I call it 2 years of self appointed constitutional scholars relying on the logic of intelligence as de
79 DocLightning : It will still be a PR battle. The issue is: Can Obama convince voters that this plan is better than what Romney has to offer? The threats of rationin
80 texan : Romney is offering a plan on something? Texan
81 mt99 : Yes. It is in the same place that you can find his immigration plan..
82 WingsFan : I will not be surprized if this happens. Since this is now deemed a tax and will be collected by IRS, I will expect the policies to be in line with o
83 jpetekyxmd80 : What?
84 EA CO AS : Sadly, when waging a war for the swing votes, you know as well as I that it ultimately doesn't matter if your plan is better. All you have to do is h
85 Arrow : Yes they will. That's one of many reasons why expats are flocking to embassies and consulates to renounce their citizenship. They have to file US tax
86 PHX787 : horribly sad day. November is pivotal for us republicans. I know that a lot of people are tweeting that they're bailing the country, but i may actuall
87 DeltaMD90 : Tell me how many of them actually go through with it lol Edit: and where they're going[Edited 2012-06-28 14:28:00]
88 D L X : ******************MY OPPONENT'S PLAN WON'T WORK****************************** ******************MY OPPONENT'S PLAN WON'T WORK************************
89 Post contains links slider : Yes, it is. This is a bill that wasn't even read aloud, if you recall. It's a bill that has, several hundred times listed in fact, that enforcement o
90 Post contains links mt99 : Japan.. really? Maybe not such a good idea.. "Payment for personal medical services is offered through a universal health care insurance system that
91 jpetekyxmd80 : Oh, good, may you enjoy kaihoken, the universal system with costs half of ours.. That'll show em.
92 Post contains images tugger : That is one thing I really disagree with as it is currently implemented. If there is a "limit" it should be the range of 20 years or something, not t
93 DocLightning : Because... Japan doesn't have universal health care?
94 jpetekyxmd80 : LOL, it's amazing how quickly it can be to leave one's good graces. My God, it is too ridiculous to be true. The right truly classifies as anything t
95 Post contains links mt99 : Poor guy.. maybe choose another country! "Since 1961 Japan has provided universal health coverage, which allows virtually all access to preventive, c
96 Ken777 : Bit of an overstatement, that. There have been many events that have "roused the American people", from an American landing on the moon to 9/11. Toda
97 Post contains images casinterest : If there are parts that don't work, or unfair burden's.=m tThat's when we revisit it and reform it with laws that make sense. To flat out repeal it w
98 DeltaMD90 : sigh:
99 jpetekyxmd80 : I would love to hear about the activist qualities of legislation which has now passed each the legislative, executive, and now judicial branch, all wi
100 Post contains links Superfly : I'm with Bob. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kRpRl1MWXoQ&feature=g-all-u
101 DocLightning : With exactly what part of Bob? The part where he says that 30-year-olds who "feel strong" don't need health insurance? Or the part where he says that
102 casinterest : wow an angry thoughtless rant. Why am I not suprised. ?
103 jpetekyxmd80 : Unreasoned hatred is the strongest antidote to logic that exists.
104 jpetekyxmd80 : I'm trying to decide my favorite reaction to the days news, there are so many to choose from. -The Michigan guy, with his "Is Armed Rebellion Now Just
105 NoUFO : While I'll leave the issue to you Americans, I wonder where you, PHX787 and those " tweeting that they're bailing the country", will go? I have a hard
106 Venus6971 : If the decsion went the other way I wonder how Democrats would be acting like. Congratulations you won.
107 Arrow : Yes they will. Do some reading on this -- I would suggest the website of American Citizens Abroad. The IRS will not give an expat credit for paying f
108 jpetekyxmd80 : Really the only thing in question was the individual mandate, which I was honestly not expecting to see stick around, I didn't think Roberts would ru
109 Post contains images Ken777 : The only ones doing this are the ones making some major money and put cash over country. Personally I don't believe we need them. I used to file from
110 tugger : Then read through it. It's been around for two years. That may be but this is not about getting a tax deduction for for a certain expense, this is ab
111 Post contains images einsteinboricua : This actually wouldn't be such a bad idea. The US is not overpopulated, so let's keep it that way. Amen to that! Many who bought the GOP mantra of no
112 jpetekyxmd80 : I cannot help but keep thing about this one. I can't wrap my head around it. How can you be an 'activist' by upholding existing law passed by legisla
113 Maverick623 : Right in the beginning. There never has been. All would be completely legal. The same Japan that requires it's citizens to have healthcare? I've lost
114 D L X : Then you've never been proud to be an American. It's official: the word "activist" means the same thing as "I don't like you." An "activist" judge wo
115 DeltaMD90 : I wonder what the bill would look like if the GOP would compromise and work on cleaning up the bill... perhaps throw in some much needed (IMO) tort re
116 ER757 : News Flash: That's how insurance works. I'm a man, but part of my premiums pay for my female co-workers' Ob-Gyn visits. My premiums also pay for my o
117 Post contains links jpetekyxmd80 : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lmihmlb1LBY&feature=youtu.be i have a feeing we'll be seeing a bit of this in the upcoming months.. This is what wi
118 DocLightning : It's gonna be a real problem for Mr. Romney.
119 Post contains links us330 : There's more to this case than meets the eye--it's not as simple as saying Obama won and the Republicans lost. The majority opinion might go down in h
120 Arrow : Read up on it, Ken. Your are 100 miles off base, and I've read enough of your comments on this site to know that you'd change your mind if you had th
121 Post contains images Mir : Well, then you might get to experience what truly government-run healthcare is like. I'm betting you'll like it. The judicial branch just ruled on a
122 Post contains images Ken777 : You don't get the tax deduction, but the IRS will recognize that you are paying for health care and you will not be taxed for not having it. If that
123 Mir : If the Democrats don't have that playing on multiple ads in multiple states between now and November, they're stupid. -Mir
124 usflyer msp : I'm sure they will love the socialized medicine, gay marriage, atheism, gun controls, and immigrant-heavy population!!!! What a bunch of idiots.
125 Post contains links jpetekyxmd80 : But wait... its the meds!!! http://www.realclearpolitics.com/vid...ication_effects_his_cognition.html
126 Mir : "Wait a minute, y'all speak French here too?" -Mir
127 Post contains images okie : While the Dems are running around spiking the ball, this is really looking like "Roberts Revenge" Okie
128 Post contains images Ken777 : I got my first lesson in the 5th grade. A girl in class got a Dx of polio (fortunately a mild case in her hand) and all kids in the class had parents
129 vinniewinnie : What I found hilarious today watching Hannity is how the logo changed from Obamacare to Obamatax. Otherwise he was going on and on about this tax on t
130 Post contains links DocLightning : It's what I call "Constitutional Fundamentalism." It's the same as religious fundamentalism, but rather than people who claim to live by the Bible (o
131 DocLightning : Oh, happily! -Shall we start with the 2yo girl who I handed a diagnosis of acute lymphoblastic leukemia (ALL) a month ago? I currently have three ALL
132 Pyrex : I thought Dems were saying all along this was not a tax? I guess they just can't help it to other people's money, must be in their DNA. This is perha
133 Post contains images PHX787 : Well it's tweets and I don't really know half the people on twitter. And the people who have gone to Japan are doing quite well. You guys cannot comp
134 DocLightning : It's not a tax. Unless you don't have insurance, in which case, you pay a tax. That's been the case all along. Are you calling Roberts a "Lib"? I sup
135 Pyrex : I don't. Well, marginal tax rates there (all in) are 70% - that is just income tax, forget about the 23% VAT and myriad other consumption/wealth taxe
136 DocLightning : Odd. That's not how it works in Spain, which also has socialized medicine. In fact, I worked in a hospital in Spain for a bit and I daresay they have
137 zkojq : Since I'm not an American I don't really want to participate in this debate (though I'm very pleased for my american friends), but could someone argui
138 Pyrex : He basically just gave Washington bureaucrats the biggest present they could ever hope for. He said "go ahead, do whatever the f*ck you want, just as
139 Post contains images QXatFAT : Or that he simply has slow internet BTW, Romney raised $2.7M within 6 hours I think it was after the decision. Not that I am a big Romney fan by any
140 DocLightning : Why don't you research Roberts. Like who put him there, for starters. Then look up his judicial record. Get back to me when you're done with a justif
141 jpetekyxmd80 : I honestly feel like giving up. Even people I think usually try to be somewhat informed... i find them not having the slightest idea what they are tal
142 Post contains links and images flyingturtle : Funny word! I'll take not of it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immunoglobulin_G I'm happy about this decision - it's all I want to say now. David
143 ltbewr : To me this is a huge message to the Republicans, especially in Congress, to repeal or strip to nothing the ACA. In effect these sentences of Chief Ju
144 Superfly : Justice John Roberts is Bush's fault....
145 NorthstarBoy : Roberts restored my faith in the supreme court by not acting like a conservative hack and tossing the thing in the trash where his fellow conservative
146 jakeorion : Whatever. Country is going down the toilet with either party in power. I just say civil war and get rid of power infested parasites and put real leade
147 us330 : You don't know much about SCOTUS history do you? Plessy v. Ferguson (permitting separate but equal) and Dred Scott come to mind immediately. All this
148 Pyrex : I honestly don't care about his record. This was the single most important case to come to the Supreme Court in decades, and he voted the wrong way.
149 NoUFO : Who are you to say he voted the "wrong way"?
150 StarAC17 : How is employer paid insurance a free ride? It costs the employer money they provide the insurance to you and it goes into the cost of employing you
151 us330 : Have you even bothered to read the opinion's summary as to what the case held? It's a complex decision. And if you haven't read it, then you probably
152 einsteinboricua : Where is it stated that a justice has to vote along his/her party lines? Where is it stated that there is a right way and a wrong way to vote? How ab
153 rfields5421 : It really does not set a precedent, it simply applies previous precedents. Please. This is far from the single most important case of this session, m
154 Revelation : 100% correct. If this was simply a tax, it was so the day before the decision too, yet McConnell et al were totally silent about that. Very good anal
155 wingman : I am just giddy with the silliness of it all. With the formal blessing of the SCOTUS Dems have screwed the very people the Repubs claim they love to s
156 Revelation : To add to your list of ironies, the right gets a lot of support from the ones that are just one bad break away from being unemployed or being bankrup
157 garnetpalmetto : Too true. I saw this quite a bit when I worked for a plaintiff's workers' comp firm. Lots of our clients were blue collar workers who were registered
158 usflyer msp : This always bothered me about many poor (esp. southern) whites. They will vote republican because the candidate name-dropped jesus or shares their di
159 Arrow : [quote=StarAC17,reply=150]Does Revenue Canada share activities of US citizens living in Canada with the IRS?? No. The Canada-US tax treaty allows Reve
160 Mir : It's not that. Sure, there are always some people who will vote GOP because of religion or racism, but for the most part the people you describe vote
161 wingman : Hey, I'm guilty of my own accusation..the Repubs actually did vote in favor of Social Security in 1935. I guess in the wake of the Great Depression it
162 DocLightning : "I don't care about the facts. I just care about how this makes me feel. Anyone who does something I disagree with is a Lib." How about not? How abou
163 Ken777 : That is tough, but outcomes are getting better every year. My wife got her Dx of ALL when she was over 60. It wa 18 months of chemo and blood transfu
164 rfields5421 : Two reasons 1) Many of the healthcare reforms in the Act do not implement until after this election. It's hard for voters and the largely apathetic A
165 Ken777 : When loyalty to your state is considered more important than loyalty to the nation then, yes, you are headed towards failure at some level.
166 slider : I'm an American citizen who loves liberty and would appreciate a return to truly limited government, that's who. And that gives me all the right I ne
167 jpetekyxmd80 : Is the tea party holding drama classes or something? Some of these are Oscar worthy.
168 DeltaMD90 : I don't know, he basically saw that this was indeed a tax... do you agree that Congress can tax? NOT do you think there should be more taxes? Big dif
169 Post contains images zckls04 : The Tea Party definitely gives good melodrama. Fortunately it makes them far less credible as they ignore the legitimate arguments against Obamacare
170 Post contains images slider : I appreciate your sarcasm, but for many of us, this is what we believe, how we think and our roots run deep in trying to save what I think is still t
171 jpetekyxmd80 : Fine, I will be more direct. I feel it is major melodrama on this part. You act as if Roberts just now decided the ability to tax as an enumerated po
172 Mir : They don't feel they need government programs at that particular moment. They're not thinking about the possibility of getting sick, or getting laid
173 DeltaMD90 : I don't know, we are forced to buy a lot of things via taxes... I'm very leery of the individual mandate myself and think it can set a bad precedent,
174 rfields5421 : I'm sorry to see that you fail to comprehend the arguments of the right against judicial activism. The conservatives and the right define judicial ac
175 DocLightning : Very true. And even then, a "states rights" approach to government almost failed again 50 years later and needed to be resolved with a civil war.
176 DocLightning : I know that this is difficult for you to understand, but YOU do not decide what is and what is not Constitutional. The Supreme Court does that. And t
177 Post contains links mt99 : Is your name Rand Paul? "ust because a couple people on the Supreme Court declare something to be ‘constitutional’ does not make it so,” Mr. Pa
178 Post contains links slider : Let me help you here, because it's critical to know just what kind of enumerated taxes actaully exist. The great Mark Levin puts it better tahn I can
179 Post contains images ER757 : Well said - sums up my feelings pretty well too. Pretty sure my votes in November will indicate how I feel about the way things are going now, but th
180 mt99 : OH yea.. 2008 was as GREAT year!//
181 Ken777 : ANyone who believes that you cannot have "Freedom" and a responsible health care system has not looked around the world try much. I had just as much
182 Superfly : Justice John Roberts was appointed by President George W Bush. That is a fact. What's so "ignorant" about that statement? Therefore, Justice John Rob
183 Post contains links slider : I think Daren Jonescu has the best retort to your post: Read more: http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/...rld_gets_darker.html#ixzz1zDd3Fjb8
184 jpetekyxmd80 : I agree its not any of those things. I myself was surprised at the ruling. If anything, haven't they created a whole new example of what can be const
185 rfields5421 : No. Many of us already participate in a similar federal mandatory insurance program which has been around since 1968. Homeowners Flood Insurance Stat
186 wingman : Slider, no one and no country is perfect. I think you and this Darren character are amongst a select few who believe our healthcare system has no room
187 DocLightning : His view is that: "The rest of the world is out of step. The U.S. is the only country that got it right." And then he accuses the rest of the world o
188 Ken777 : Or it is one of the few things he did right. Those abroad who see this have no understanding of poverty in America, or the inability for those in the
189 Post contains images Mir : Notice I said they don't feel like they need government services. Whether that matches the reality of their situation is a different matter. -Mir
190 jpetekyxmd80 : Let's play a game. Who said it? "Using tax penalties, as we did, or tax credits, as others have proposed, encourages "free riders" to take responsibil
191 us330 : Slider, you make some points worthy of proper debate, but you undermine your credibility when you resort to boilerplate or melodramatic language. Wha
192 einsteinboricua : I'd like to see this for myself. Notice how the GOP mantra is limited government with many liberties...yet you can't have the liberty to marry someon
193 Post contains images Confuscius : This picture pretty much sums up which side won and which side lost. [Edited 2012-06-29 18:30:55] Note: Picture has nothing to do with the healthcare
194 Post contains images DocLightning : You are trying to logically knock down his arguments. Stop that. He's not interested in logic. When someone starts throwing around "Socialist" to des
195 D L X : Does anyone else get the impression that conservatives have gotten a hold of this word and are throwing it around without knowing what it actually me
196 DocLightning : So now Gov. Rick Scott of FL says that his state will not comply with the law, regardless of what SCOTUS says. What recourse is there when a state bas
197 ltbewr : Recall the history of the US Government as to enforcement of the Civil Rights laws in the 1950's and 1960's. The Congress can also withhold monies fo
198 Post contains links cargolex : Why not add "unconstitutional" to the already long vocabulary list of words they use often but fail completely to understand, such as Marxism, Social
199 rfields5421 : Withholding money is the main way to force a state to comply. There are all sorts of other ways the federal government could bring commerce to a stan
200 Ken777 : We have a dumb broad for a Governor in Oklahoma and she too has her undies in a twist over the SCOTUS decision. I am finding it amazing how the Court
201 Post contains links ATTart : Mitch McConnell On 30 Million Uninsured: 'That Is Not The Issue' http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...%7Cdl1%7Csec3_lnk3%26pLid%3D174889
202 Post contains links Dreadnought : I bet they will. That is the traditional method, but the USSC decision adressed that part as well. Among the specific decisions: Voting 9 – 0, the
203 Post contains links mt99 : And Romney will have to find a way to backtrack http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y6DrH6P9OC0 "“Governor … you imposed tax penalties in Massachusett
204 type-rated : With the way everyone is acting over this decision you'd think that Obama was handing out FREE healthcare to everyone. There will be a price, and what
205 us330 : It's political grandstanding--and rather unfortunate grandstanding by politicians trying to tap into the populist reaction by citizens who don't nece
206 Ken777 : If you are getting nanny care from your employer there will be lower premiums over the years - at least in states where the politicians have pulled i
207 Dreadnought : Sigh... when will people learn that the US Constitution restricts the federal government only and does not impose any restrictions on what the state
208 mt99 : Good question. Ohh lookie here. The Supreme Court just said that Romney's plan to tax people on a national level who do not buy insurance would be co
209 DocLightning : Really? Then why can't states establish official religions? There is no explicit prohibition on that. I keep hearing it's a tax. It isn't unless you
210 Ken777 : George Wallce found out that the federal government can get in the state's face. Wallace standing there, blocking Americans from entering the univers
211 Dreadnought : States can have official religions. Connecticut had one until 1813. Massachusetts had one until 1833, and Article III of the Massachusetts constituti
212 D L X : False. Everson v. Board of Education, 330 U.S. 1 (1947). False. The Supreme Court said that Congress has the power to enact the law because it has th
213 Ken777 : Even with slavery abolished there were generations of discrimination. Ike had no power to wave his hand. He was waving federal troops right into Geor
214 type-rated : You are so right about this. Most doctors don't know or care what tests cost these days. They have no idea what a prescription costs either. It's the
215 Post contains images EA CO AS : And "ONE SIZE FITS ALL" is always the best idea, right? What works for 20M oughta work for 330M, right? Right?
216 DocLightning : That's because I put the patient's best interest first, not the dollars first. That's the oath I took.
217 Post contains links and images Superfly :
218 casinterest : At the end of the day, the GOP is going to have to come up with more than one liners to explain their positions on Obamacare. Especially their latest
219 mt99 : Sure why not? Romney has been very publicly touting his record as Governor. He is saying: "look how wonderful my plans for 20M worked, I do the same
220 Superfly : More like Obama will have to explain how much people's tax WILL go up. In 2008, candidate Obama claimed that he would not raise taxes in order to pay
221 D L X : On what planet? You pay a penalty if you don't get insurance. Only in bizzarro world is that a tax hike, and much less "the largest tax hike in the h
222 casinterest : Explain to me right now. how my taxes are going up. , Then contrast it with the huge f'ng increase I had in premiums in 2008 and 2009. Then explain t
223 Superfly : This planet. Which is enforced by the IRS. Obama's new law has new penalties. I thought health-care was supposed to be a good thing. Funny how someth
224 mt99 : Just like Romney care!
225 casinterest : I know I will have to pay for you if you don't have insurance and have a major issue. I have no issues with the 10% deadbeats paying a penalty.
226 Superfly : No you wont. I live in another country. I pay for my medical services here. If there is a clause in the 2700+ page Obamacare for expats, please point
227 mt99 : If you don't want US law to apply to you, you can always renounce your citizenship and pick a better one.
228 garnetpalmetto : But if he did that and became a Thai citizen then he'd be faced with something even MORE evil and socialist than that evil Obamacare...the Thai unive
229 casinterest : That's for you to find and lobby your congressman/woman for, and refer to your US tax officer for. However, if you ever plan on coming back to the US
230 Superfly : I know you're a cheerleader for Obama and Obamacare but can you put down your pom-poms and bull-horn for a minute and point out where there is a clau
231 mt99 : Why should I? You should do your own homework. Again, if you don't like it or you feel that you are wronged in some way because you choose to live in
232 Superfly : Well you're cheering it on. I at least expect you to have some knowledge on it. Otherwise it just looks like you want to sling mud and not participat
233 Post contains links mt99 : Because, quite simply.. it doesn't not affect me. It affect you. You should be responsible for yourself. Just like Romney made people from his state
234 Superfly : So don't throw temper tantrums when people ask questions you don't know. You could have simply not responded or said you didn't know.
235 Superfly : Cute but I already have one. Don't worry about it. You wouldn't like those people anyway. Geez, give the movers time to get to his house and clear ou
236 Post contains links casinterest : And I answered it. I went with what I believe to be the case. It seems to me that you are stuck between a rock and a hardplace. You live outside the
237 Post contains images Superfly : Who said I didn't have insurance? I have insurance here already that is provided by my employer. However, knowing how our IRS/government operates, th
238 Post contains links and images Ken777 : Considering that a lot of Americans are covered by employer nanny care policies your 330m is cut down significantly. It is also reduced by the number
239 Superfly : Wouldn't it be the IRS that enforces this? If you don't pay the IRS, you become a criminal. Can those who are caught breaking the law by not having i
240 D L X : Fly, you know those are two separate things. 1) If you don't get insurance, you have to pay a tax penalty. 2) If you don't pay your taxes, you are a
241 Ken777 : Yes, they are the department processing the enforcement, and the fine will be calculated by you when you fill in your 1040/ Lots of people get IRS fi
242 rfields5421 : The very quickest way to get an IRS auditor at your door, your bank accounts seized, etc - is to fill out a tax return, and say that certain parts of
243 Post contains links garnetpalmetto : http://healthreform.kff.org/quizzes/health-reform-quiz.aspx Interesting little quiz to test your knowledge of what the ACA does and doesn't do. I got
244 Post contains links usflyer msp : Breaking News: Romney breaks with GOP and agrees with Obama that it is a penalty not a tax. http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0712/78077.html This
245 Ken777 : Actually, the GOP needs to follow Romney for this election. He IS their candidate and he DID come up with the insurance mandate first. All I can see
246 JetBlueGuy2006 : I got 10/10, which suprised me a bit. This is really interesting from a political point of view. It was the same advisor with the "etch-a-sketch" mom
247 Mir : If he should pursue that strategy should he become president, watch the Republicans suddenly realize that not taking action that isn't mandatory unde
248 einsteinboricua : I got 8/10 which according to the link is better than 90% of those who have taken the test...should I be worried at how uninformed many Americans are
249 Post contains links and images caliatenza : i read this article yesterday: http://bottomline.msnbc.msn.com/_new...dying-for-healthcare-coverage?lite , found it pretty interesting. I was especial
250 Superfly : My question went over your head. I'm not refereeing to the American citizens that play by the rules. I'm talking about illegals. When illegals sneak
251 DocLightning : For this reason, Obama would have preferred to include illegals in the mandate but knew that 1) it was unenforceable and 2) the GOP would never toler
252 Superfly : Well of course not and I hope it never get's to that point. Now the illegals that will get Amnesty, they qualify for Obamacare now too, right?
253 Mir : Once they get some sort of legal status, I'd imagine so. But until they do (and the process is not immediate), they'll be without it. -Mir
254 einsteinboricua : I guess news don't reach Thailand as fast. Where have you been? Haven't all GOP presidential candidates, senators, and House members mentioned the ex
255 Superfly : Will they get that in time for the election? I guess you don't know much about politics. I'd would expect you to have some knowledge since you live i
256 Mir : I suppose there could be some who get their cases processed that fast, but nobody is getting healthcare yet anyway (that's a year or two down the roa
257 casinterest : Mine probably went up then too, but my company absorbed a lot as I used to be on a 100% coverage plan. Theyt either pay at point of service, or some
258 D L X : What do you mean "qualify for Obamacare?" As in, they can buy insurance? That is a GOOD thing if so!
259 flyingturtle : "You answered 9 out of 10 questions correctly, better than 97% of Americans." I'm Swiss and I've never been outside of Europe... troubling. We have m
260 Post contains images Superfly : It will matter to him to get them registered to vote if he wants a 2nd. term. They also made fun if his ears those big bad bullies! Who are you kiddi
261 D L X : Well then AGAIN, what do you mean when you say they qualify for Obamacare? You do realize there is no insurance program called Obamacare, right?
262 Ken777 : Sorry - I thought you still talking about when you visited the States. Obviously no one - just like today. Unfortunately not. I've seen far too many
263 Mir : It will make them like him better, no doubt. He gave the latino community something they'd been pushing for for a long time, and they are only guaran
264 Ken777 : And there is one of the major problems we have. Illegals come here, end up in the ER for one reason or another and don't have insurance. Just like no
265 Post contains images Superfly : So this tax/penalty/fine/fee only applies to us that play by the rules. Got it. You would fail a logic course using that logic. Yes there are many bi
266 Mir : That's true for every law on the books. Of course, if people don't follow the rules, there are enforcement measures that can be taken. -Mir
267 bjorn14 : I hope Roberts is in Malta to get a spine transplant.
268 jpetekyxmd80 : This is hilarious. Having hard coming up with a scenario that would have required a bigger spine than this, for him personally. You just didn't like
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