dl021 From United States of America, joined May 2004, 11433 posts, RR: 81 Reply 1, posted (10 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1545 times:
Justified. He's refusing to provide what the committee is asking for and then went and requested executive privilege to avoid turning over the requested information. He's trying outlast the committee.
It is a witch hunt. Nothing more. Bunch of political frauds in the GOP and a couple of NRA compromised Democrat reps voting for the GOP to continue to do what it does best. Nothing that matters.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
IMissPiedmont From United States of America, joined exactly 12 years ago today! , 6203 posts, RR: 43 Reply 4, posted (10 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 1518 times:
The entire Obama administration holds the US population in contempt and so does Congress. I say this is the pot calling the kettle black.
What is it with all the "is there a possibilty airline X will.." threads? The answer it'll is possible.
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 5309 posts, RR: 47 Reply 5, posted (10 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1447 times:
Well fast and furious was pretty stupid (don't care if President Bush or whoever started it.) Why withhold the information?
I know the GOP is having a field day with it, but I think they may have a point here, even if this is (maybe) just for political reasons
Dreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 7782 posts, RR: 22 Reply 6, posted (10 months 3 weeks 6 days 23 hours ago) and read 1430 times:
Quoting D L X (Reply 3):
Separation of powers. Congress is not entitled to everything it asks for.
Congressional oversight rights are implicit in the Constitution, and formalized in law. The Legislative Reorganization Act of 1946, explicitly called for “legislative oversight” in public law. It directed House and Senate standing committees “to exercise continuous watchfulness” over programs and agencies under their jurisdiction.
The Legislative Reorganization Act of 1970 authorized each standing committee to “review and study, on a continuing basis, the application, administration and execution” of laws under its jurisdiction.
Government Performance and Results Act of 1993 requires agencies to consult with Congress on their strategic plans and report annually on performance plans, goals, and results, as well as Inspector General reports from each agency on fraud, abuse, waste etc.
The GAO (Government Accountability Office) was specially put together to assist Congress in their oversight duties.
Congress can see anything it damn well pleases, with the exception of certain things under executive privilege - discussed in another thread. Even things classified Top Secret or higher must be available to key congressional members.
Ken777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7459 posts, RR: 5 Reply 7, posted (10 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 1379 times:
Quoting D L X (Reply 3): This is a political stunt. What's worse is that it's a stunt that has no teeth.
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 6): Congress can see anything it damn well pleases, with the exception of certain things under executive privilege - discussed in another thread. Even things classified Top Secret or higher must be available to key congressional members.
Congress does have the rights to see a lot from the Executive Branch (and the Judicial Branch, if you think about it.)
As far as classified material goes a Senator or Congressman doe not have special rights to publicly disclose that information, In doing so that politician should effectively have ALL security clearances pulled
Quote:
The May 24 letter to Rep. Elijah Cummings (D-Md.), ranking member on the panel, quotes from and describes in detail a secret wiretap application that has become a point of debate in the GOP’s “Fast and Furious” gun-walking probe.
The wiretap applications are under court seal, and releasing such information to the public would ordinarily be illegal.
But Issa appears to be protected by the Speech or Debate Clause in the Constitution, which offers immunity for Congressional speech, especially on a chamber’s floor.
In terms of the whole Fast & Furious issue, there is a pretty good article on Fortune's site.
Quote:
Voth's mandate was to stop gun traffickers in Arizona, the state ranked by the gun-control advocacy group Legal Community Against Violence as having the nation's "weakest gun violence prevention laws." Just 200 miles from Mexico, which prohibits gun sales, the Phoenix area is home to 853 federally licensed firearms dealers. Billboards advertise volume discounts for multiple purchases.
Customers can legally buy as many weapons as they want in Arizona as long as they're 18 or older and pass a criminal background check. There are no waiting periods and no need for permits, and buyers are allowed to resell the guns. "In Arizona," says Voth, "someone buying three guns is like someone buying a sandwich."
By 2009 the Sinaloa drug cartel had made Phoenix its gun supermarket and recruited young Americans as its designated shoppers or straw purchasers. Voth and his agents began investigating a group of buyers, some not even old enough to buy beer, whose members were plunking down as much as $20,000 in cash to purchase up to 20 semiautomatics at a time, and then delivering the weapons to others.
853 Federally Registered Firearms Dealers in Phoenix alone.
That has to make the NRA smile.
That makes it pretty clear that the ATF has zero chance of stopping the flow of weapons into Mexico. The 2nd Amendment will ensure that flow will continue and the 2nd Amendment will not be "changed" to address the issue.
That basically means we should stop worrying about the problem. One agent, unfortunately killed, doesn't matter. It is just a political game.
Regardless, we really don't need an irresponsible politician exposing ongoing investigations, or exposing names of people providing information to investigations. Issa has proved that he is not trustworthy for even a Confidential security clearance. At least not by the standards in place when I served - and had a clearance.
Dreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 7782 posts, RR: 22 Reply 8, posted (10 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1357 times:
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 7): As far as classified material goes a Senator or Congressman doe not have special rights to publicly disclose that information, In doing so that politician should effectively have ALL security clearances pulled
Is anyone talking about having to publicly disclose the requested documents? Anyone? No hands up? We are talking about disclosing information to the duly constituted congressional oversight committee.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 7):
Reminds me of Cheney's office outing a CIA agent.
If you had been reading a decent newspaper, you might have learned that it was someone in the State department who did that.
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 5309 posts, RR: 47 Reply 9, posted (10 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1352 times:
Can anyone answer why they would withhold documents? Any good reason? (it's a question, I honestly don't know.) Not trying to be partisan at all, I'm leery of a lot the Republicans do. Hopefully the reason is "well GWB did this so President Obama can..."
Ken777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7459 posts, RR: 5 Reply 10, posted (10 months 3 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 1325 times:
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8): Is anyone talking about having to publicly disclose the requested documents?
Issa has already demonstrated that he cannot be trusted with any level of classified material. Those involved in the investigations (including "sources") don't need some third rate politician putting them in danger.
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 8): you might have learned that it was someone in the State department who did that.
And it didn't come from Cheney's office?
Why do you think he worked so hard to keep his guy out of prison - and later a pardon from W?
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 9): Can anyone answer why they would withhold documents?
You can start with a major gun running effort in Phoenix and the ATF being severely because we have a 2nd Amendment that makes it very legal for licensed dealers to sell 18 year olds a lot of guns, that will end up in Mexico.
The 2nd Amendment will not change and the ATF cannot treat legally sold guns like illegally sold drugs. That is their restriction. The last thing we need is a GOP wet dream of exposing sources on the House floor.
And, in reality, we do need to honor the Separation of Powers and the right to Executive Privilege. The GOP has lost the reality of the situation, where they will be exposed to the same games for years to come.
Then we have the games at various levels. The Fortune article linked is pretty good at defining the reality and the political games.
Oooops! Forgot the link in Reply 7:
Quote:
The truth about the Fast and Furious scandal
Dreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 7782 posts, RR: 22 Reply 11, posted (10 months 3 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 1312 times:
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 10): And it didn't come from Cheney's office?
Nope.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 10): Why do you think he worked so hard to keep his guy out of prison - and later a pardon from W?
First of all, Scooter Libby's prosecution was way excessive - particularly when the prosecutor already know that Richard Armitage at the State Department was the source of the leak.
Secondly, Libby never got a pardon. His sentence was commuted. Big difference.
Revelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 10470 posts, RR: 20 Reply 12, posted (10 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 1271 times:
And as expected:
Quote:
Attorney General Eric Holder won’t be prosecuted for failing to provide the U.S. House with documents lawmakers requested about a federal gun operation, the Justice Department said.
The department’s decision, described in a letter to U.S. House Speaker John Boehner, came after the House voted yesterday to cite Holder for contempt.
...
Holder’s response to lawmakers’ subpoena doesn’t constitute a crime, said Deputy Attorney General James Cole in a letter yesterday to Boehner, an Ohio Republican. President Barack Obama has asserted executive privilege over the documents and declined to turn them over.
The Justice Department’s longstanding position is that it won’t prosecute executive branch officials for withholding documents after a president asserts privilege.
So the whole thing was dead the minute the president asserted privilege.
The rest was just political theater.
For better or for worse, the Supreme Court has given the politicians their next soapbox and the political junkies their next fix, and this is now officially Old News.
DeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 5309 posts, RR: 47 Reply 13, posted (10 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 1243 times:
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 10): You can start with a major gun running effort in Phoenix and the ATF being severely because we have a 2nd Amendment that makes it very legal for licensed dealers to sell 18 year olds a lot of guns, that will end up in Mexico.
The 2nd Amendment will not change and the ATF cannot treat legally sold guns like illegally sold drugs. That is their restriction. The last thing we need is a GOP wet dream of exposing sources on the House floor.
And, in reality, we do need to honor the Separation of Powers and the right to Executive Privilege. The GOP has lost the reality of the situation, where they will be exposed to the same games for years to come.
Then we have the games at various levels. The Fortune article linked is pretty good at defining the reality and the political games.
So I'm not really getting that... withhold information because it might be politically good for the "other side?" I hope I'm not reading that correctly because that's kind of weak...
Ken777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7459 posts, RR: 5 Reply 14, posted (10 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1214 times:
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 11): Secondly, Libby never got a pardon. His sentence was commuted. Big difference.
Cheney got Bush to commute Libby's sentence so he would not go to prison and vigorously tried to gets full pardon so Libby could go back to practicing law. That was too much of a push for Bush, which did upset Cheney a bit.
Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 13): withhold information because it might be politically good for the "other side?"
We know that this problem of guns moving from Phoenix to Mexico is long term. The Bush Administration had their Fast & Furious type programs in the past and there will be similar programs in the future. Going back to the Fortune article:
Quote:
Just 200 miles from Mexico, which prohibits gun sales, the Phoenix area is home to 853 federally licensed firearms dealers. Billboards advertise volume discounts for multiple purchases.
How many cities around that size will have 850+ gun dealers?
And there is another issue:
Quote:
The Mexican government has estimated that 2,000 weapons are smuggled daily from the U.S. into Mexico. The ATF is hobbled in its effort to stop this flow. No federal statute outlaws firearms trafficking, so agents must build cases using a patchwork of often toothless laws. For six years, due to Beltway politics, the bureau has gone without permanent leadership, neutered in its fight for funding and authority. The National Rifle Association has so successfully opposed a comprehensive electronic database of gun sales that the ATF's congressional appropriation explicitly prohibits establishing one.
With 2,000 guns a day you are looking at close to three quarters of a million guns a year - 730,000. That is a lot of sales and it will have an impact on gun manufacturing. Gun companies have a strong financial reason to keep up this volume of "legal sales" and the NRA is their friend in maintaining sales. The limitations the ATF faces makes that clear. - the lack of an electronic data base makes that clear.
While the ATF tasks may be difficult they still need to have some of the facilities to try to do their job. The Fortune article makes it clear that prosecutors are exceptionally sensitive to the rights (especially 2nd Amendments) of the gun buyers.
That sensitivity will continue to allow 2,000 guns to cross the border every day.
Ken777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7459 posts, RR: 5 Reply 16, posted (10 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 1187 times:
Quoting N174UA (Reply 15):
Not one mention of Brian Terry, who was murdered as a result of this program. Where is the justice for him and his family?
There has been a lot of mentions of Terry - especially from Republicans who want to hold him up for political advantage.
That is the GOP game. They'll go on and on - as long as they get media coverage and can leverage it in the election.
But you will never see the Republicans make any move to change the way the game is played in Phoenix. Not with 730,00 weapons per year generating sales for dealers and manufacturers.
Reality is the ONLY way we know that the guns that killed Agent Terry was the list of serial numbers that other agents had hand written down. The GOP/IRA ensured it was illegal to have an electronic database of guns sold. No telling how many Americans have died (or will die in the future) without a way to reference the source of the guns from Phoenix.
Quoting N174UA (Reply 15): If there was truly nothing to hide, then why not just share all of the documents?
The House has thousands of pages of documents specifically focused on the incident and the program, going back to the Bush Years.
There are legitimate reasons to hold back documents the Executive Branch considers sensitive to the investigation - especially when you have politicians already disclosing classified information to the public.
N174UA From United States of America, joined Jun 2006, 993 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (10 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1139 times:
No mention of Brian Terry in this entire thread. Until I mentioned it, he was completely forgotten.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 16): The House has thousands of pages of documents specifically focused on the incident and the program, going back to the Bush Years.
Ken777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 7459 posts, RR: 5 Reply 18, posted (10 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 1135 times:
Quoting N174UA (Reply 17): Yet AG Holder denied the link to the Bush Administration:
The single F & F was not from the Bush Administration, but programs were used. Do you really believe that the Bush Administration went 8 years without trying to address the problem?
casinterest From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3280 posts, RR: 1 Reply 20, posted (10 months 3 weeks 4 days 6 hours ago) and read 1015 times:
Quoting N174UA (Reply 17): No mention of Brian Terry in this entire thread. Until I mentioned it, he was completely forgotten.
Because other than a bunch of dumb policiticans news outlets like fox news, he is not relevent to the current issue. He died, and all the documents leading to his death are already part of the record. He died doing his job, and it isn't clear at all that he would have had any other outcome without fast and furios. The only documents Issa wants are the ones that show the Justice department and ATF trying to figure out what exactly happened AFTER they shut down fast and furious.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
fr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 4260 posts, RR: 12 Reply 21, posted (10 months 3 weeks 4 days 5 hours ago) and read 1008 times:
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 14): How many cities around that size will have 850+ gun dealers?
I know 4 FFL holders that are considered dealers who do not sell firearms as a business. They have FFL's in order o buy and/or sell firearms from their personal collections without going through a FFL. The number of FFL's in a particular area means nothing.
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 14): With 2,000 guns a day you are looking at close to three quarters of a million guns a year - 730,000. That is a lot of sales and it will have an impact on gun manufacturing.
YOu know, I saw this number last year, when we discussed Fast and Furious when the news first broke and the Mexican government was blaming te NRA for the violence on its side of the border. I can't find the thread (stupid search engine), but I followed the references in the various studies' reference pages and found that this 2000/day number was 'reported' by the Mexican government with no backup data.
Quoting Revelation (Reply 12): Attorney General Eric Holder won’t be prosecuted for failing to provide the U.S. House with documents lawmakers requested about a federal gun operation, the Justice Department said.
I just visited Washington DC and took a tour that went past (or is it passed?) the Watergate Hotel and the tour guide went on and on about how no one in our government is above the law...
D L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 10561 posts, RR: 53 Reply 22, posted (10 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 995 times:
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 21): I just visited Washington DC and took a tour that went past (or is it passed?) the Watergate Hotel and the tour guide went on and on about how no one in our government is above the law...
That is very true, but in this case, the GOP is saying Holder broke a law that doesn't exist.
Kind of hard to compare this to breaking and entering.
Dreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 7782 posts, RR: 22 Reply 23, posted (10 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 992 times:
Quoting Revelation (Reply 12): So the whole thing was dead the minute the president asserted privilege.
It was dead that the Department of justice, asked to prosecute Holder, is under Holder's control. He is clearly above the law as far as he thinks.
No, it's not. It should very much be a subject in campaigns this fall, that this is an administration that does not feel itself accountable to anyone.
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 21): YOu know, I saw this number last year, when we discussed Fast and Furious when the news first broke and the Mexican government was blaming te NRA for the violence on its side of the border. I can't find the thread (stupid search engine), but I followed the references in the various studies' reference pages and found that this 2000/day number was 'reported' by the Mexican government with no backup data.
It's bogus, just like that claim from Obama, Hillary Clinton and other administration officials that "90% of all Mexican gang guns are from the US". In reality, Mexico only sends us the serial numbers on recovered guns if the guns appear to have US manufacturing marks. So the real claim should have been "90% of US guns recovered in Mexico come from the US". Well duh... The rest come from China, Russia, Cuba, Singapore etc. The real number is somewhere between 17 and 36%. http://www.factcheck.org/politics/counting_mexicos_guns.html
Mir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 19715 posts, RR: 56 Reply 24, posted (10 months 3 weeks 4 days 4 hours ago) and read 978 times:
Quoting Revelation (Reply 12): For better or for worse, the Supreme Court has given the politicians their next soapbox and the political junkies their next fix, and this is now officially Old News.
It was old news the moment they held the vote on it the same day as the healthcare decision. If they really wanted to make something of this, they'd have rescheduled it. Instead, it got buried.
Quoting N174UA (Reply 17): No mention of Brian Terry in this entire thread. Until I mentioned it, he was completely forgotten.
This is going to sound harsh, but his death, while tragic, doesn't mean all that much in relation to the program. I don't think anyone takes into account how the gun they'll be using was obtained when they're deciding who they'll shoot with it. The Mexican drug and crime cartels have not had a problem obtaining guns for a while now (longer than the gunwalking programs have been in effect), and to say that his death would have been prevented had the program not been in place is making rather a big stretch. It's likely he would have been shot anyway, just with a different gun.
As is common with these things, his death is being politicized to make it seem like it's how he died that's the crime rather than the fact that he died at all. Which I find quite insulting, actually - it's almost as if people are saying "we don't care if you shoot our border agents as long as you don't use US-sourced guns to do it". I'd rather not have our border agents shot at all.
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 23): It was dead that the Department of justice, asked to prosecute Holder, is under Holder's control. He is clearly above the law as far as he thinks.
The DoJ's policy of not prosecuting once executive privilege has been invoked goes back longer than Obama's tenure. So I don't see how you can pin this on his administration specifically.
-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
25 seb146: Those documents would probably show names of agents and would be eligable for executive privlige. Except the right would have everyone believe otherw
26 Dreadnought: The questions to be answered are: Who approved the operation, Who decided to pull pull surveillance from the monitored guns (whistle-blowers have tes
27 fr8mech: He has refused to provide Congress with the information it demands. Congress does have oversight duties, as implied in the Constitution and through l
28 EricR: The first thing that came to mind when I read the title of the thread (without reading anything else) was that this decision means nothing because Oba
29 casinterest: Umm those would be in the documents from when the operation was approved, not when it concluded. Before the operation concluded You are assuming ther
30 Ken777: I doubt you will find a federal prosecutor who is willing to significantly diminish EP. And the reality is that the more mature & intelligent Rep
31 D L X: Congress is not entitled to anything and everything it demands. If you can find that in the Constitution, I'd like to see it.
32 fr8mech: It is implied in the Constitution where it gives Congress the purse strings over government. You don't really expect the Founders provided Congress w
33 casinterest: Is issa passing out Tin Foil Hats? an effort to cover it up vs a real cover up? This is the only thing those docs will show, and that is akin to some
34 fr8mech: Because, since this operation went well (guns moved south as envisioned) and went bad (ATF agent killed) we, The People, should know who put the oper
35 Ken777: "Implied" in the Constitution? And what Executive Powers are "implied" in the Constitution? Already gave it to you in an earlier post, but here it is
36 fr8mech: The power to issue executive orders, for one. So, you're saying that Congress should not have oversight? Or that the administration, ANY administrati
37 D L X: And if this issue were about how the DOJ was spending its money, you'd have a point. But it is not a case about spending excess. It is a witch hunt.
38 Ken777: OK. Let's start with the programs from the Bush/Cheney Years, flowing into the programs of the Obama Era. We can get a good understanding of the Obam
39 fr8mech: Let's dig. If something illegal was done, let's find out. If it goes to Bush/Cheney or Clinton/Gore, let's find out. I think it stops at Holder. The
40 ltbewr: The NRA is targeting A.G. Holder out of fear he will go after the Arizona gun dealers who sold the guns that ended up on Mexico by revoking their lice
41 okie: You will have to excuse me but just in the last few weeks have we not had serious, serious national security leaks published in the NY Times that hav
42 fr8mech: The gun dealers are 'off the hook' because the ATF told them to go ahead with the sales, regardless of their (the dealer's) reservations. That is on
43 Ken777: Considering that it is illegal to maintain an electronic database on serial numbers I think the big thing is to ensure that the agents only entered t
44 virgin744: This single post sums up perfecty what US Republican politics has been for eternity. You sir, deserve a cigar! All previous administrations (most not
45 Maverick623: The definition of entrapment. Are you suggesting that just because something is classified, it contains information sensitive to national security? I
46 casinterest: They can when the legislative branch can't produce anything related to the reason for those documents other than "we think we will find somehting" .
47 fr8mech: Which is the argument I was making in the executive order and DREAM thread. True, but what are you going to do. The dealer covered his ass with docum
48 casinterest: They have found the same problem at Gun Shows and dealers all over. Mine was a generalization ,but they do exist. But neither does Congress get to fo
49 seb146: From what I understand, the documents that are out already say everything that was done. The ones Issa wants are the ones that simply give a summary
50 fr8mech: Gun shows are very different from FFL gun dealers. At a gun show the seller does not confirm or check anything. The seller can not know nor have a re
51 Maverick623: I was referring to Ken777's "fleabag politicians" remark about classified materials being brought to public light on the floor. I believe in this cas
52 Ken777: Basically I consider classified material just that. Classified. Neither of us knows the level of classification or sensitivity. Sensitivity might be
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