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Silver Line Coming To IAD  
User currently offlineSTT757 From United States of America, joined Mar 2000, 16819 posts, RR: 51
Posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2689 times:

Quote:
After months of uncertainty, the future of Metro’s Silver Line is clear: rail is coming to Dulles International Airport and Loudoun County.

The Loudoun County Board of Supervisors voted 5-4 Tuesday morning to support the second phase of the Silver Line construction, which will bring Metrorail to Dulles Airport and to two planned stations in eastern Loudoun.

About time, the second phase to IAD and Loudoun county was being held up. This vote clears the way for the second phase, final, phase to go forward with construction.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local/...e/2012/07/03/gJQAUdqhKW_story.html

I'm not exactly thrilled with the station's placement at IAD, but it's better than nothing.


Eastern Air lines flt # 701, EWR-MCO Boeing 757
35 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineEASTERN747 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 515 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2532 times:

When I began at DCA with Eastern, my training took place at IAD. There was nothing, LITERALLY NOTHING between the beltway and IAD. The last time I was there I saw that is not the case now.It is ironic that at the time there was a rain line from the city out to IAD and beyond as part of the old rain system. They used it in fact to get material out there for construction. After the airport was finished, the line was torn up......No crystal balls at the time, although if it had been upgraded and developed then, just imagine how the area and airport would have grown much sooner.

User currently offlineLHCVG From United States of America, joined May 2009, 1542 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 3 hours ago) and read 2520 times:

Quoting STT757 (Thread starter):
I'm not exactly thrilled with the station's placement at IAD, but it's better than nothing.

My sentiments exactly! As much as I believe the underground station is a better long-term solution, I long ago came around to the view that we need to take what we can get with Metro to IAD.


User currently offlineN202PA From United States of America, joined Jun 2000, 1556 posts, RR: 3
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2346 times:

Quoting EASTERN747 (Reply 1):
No crystal balls at the time, although if it had been upgraded and developed then, just imagine how the area and airport would have grown much sooner.

How true that is. With a little bit of foresight in the 70s (after the demise of the W&OD Railrway), there would be a passenger line directly from Alexandria to Vienna, Reston, Herndon, Dulles, Leesburg and Purcellville. Instead, it's now a bike trail (which is nice, of course, but does nothing to ease the traffic problems of the area).


User currently offlinekgaiflyer From United States of America, joined Jul 2008, 4233 posts, RR: 1
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2280 times:
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Can you imagine what would have happened if the Silver Line *ended* at Washington-Dulles and then tens of thousands of Loudoun County commuters tried to take every available parking spot at the airport?

Not a pretty thought for airport users (btw, what is past the Purple lot?   )


User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2498 posts, RR: 23
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2251 times:
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What a relief! This is so long overdue. I will be so glad for this to be completed!


"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
User currently offlineZANL188 From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 3501 posts, RR: 0
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2155 times:
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Quoting N202PA (Reply 3):
With a little bit of foresight in the 70s (after the demise of the W&OD Railrway), there would be a passenger line directly from Alexandria to Vienna, Reston, Herndon, Dulles, Leesburg and Purcellville. Instead, it's now a bike trail (which is nice, of course, but does nothing to ease the traffic problems of the area).

An awesome bike trail by the way... When I lived in the DC area I routinely rode from the Mall all the way out to Dulles and back... Complete with bike shops along the way...



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User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21514 posts, RR: 55
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2145 times:

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 4):
Can you imagine what would have happened if the Silver Line *ended* at Washington-Dulles and then tens of thousands of Loudoun County commuters tried to take every available parking spot at the airport?

They could have just put a big parking garage at the stop before Dulles. People will drive an extra five minutes over paying for airport parking.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlinezippyjet From United States of America, joined Sep 2001, 5478 posts, RR: 13
Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 21 hours ago) and read 2055 times:

Quoting STT757 (Thread starter):

   I couldn't agree with you more. This should have happened 30 years ago. And, there is rumor bandied about that the DC Metro will extend to BWI! This too would be an excellent move.



I'm Zippyjet & I approve of this message!
User currently offlinedarksnowynight From United States of America, joined Jan 2012, 1343 posts, RR: 3
Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2028 times:

Quoting EASTERN747 (Reply 1):
When I began at DCA with Eastern, my training took place at IAD. There was nothing, LITERALLY NOTHING between the beltway and IAD.

I don't know when you started there, but I distinctly remember going to Hot Air Ballon festivals adjacent to IAD in the early 80s. I go home every now and again, and yes, such a thing would be woefully impossible today...



Posting without Knowledge is simply Tolerated Vandalism... We are the Vandals.
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24823 posts, RR: 46
Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 2024 times:

Imo - $6 billion is such a waste.

For that money, the MWAA could provide each local IAD passenger with a free cab ride into the city for over 16 years !



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21514 posts, RR: 55
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 1998 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
For that money, the MWAA could provide each local IAD passenger with a free cab ride into the city for over 16 years !

Good thing the rail link will prove useful for far longer than 16 years.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6578 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 5 hours ago) and read 1954 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 10):
mo - $6 billion is such a waste.

For that money, the MWAA could provide each local IAD passenger with a free cab ride into the city for over 16 years !

You ignore that most of the riders of this line will have nothing to do with the airport. They'll be people commuting from the suburbs into Tysons Corner (a major employment center with terrible traffic and minimal mass transit), Arlington and DC. The line will also serve many people living in the District/Arlington who reverse commute out to Tyson's Corner and the Dulles Tech Corridor.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, the primary purpose of this line is NOT to serve IAD. The airport is a secondary benefit. No different than Metro's blue/yellow lines which serve DCA, but that's not the primary purpose of those lines either.


User currently offlinedfwrevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 961 posts, RR: 51
Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 1930 times:

Quoting EASTERN747 (Reply 1):
No crystal balls at the time, although if it had been upgraded and developed then, just imagine how the area and airport would have grown much sooner

We can say with confidence that it would have made no difference. Even in U.S. cities with well-developed mass transit systems, ridership amounts to single-digit percentages of the overall trips within a region. Their share is essentially meaningless and have no impact on the direction or types of development.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 12):
You ignore that most of the riders of this line will have nothing to do with the airport.

True, but even considering the broader appeal, these metro systems tend to lose money, fail to replay capital costs, and represent an inferior investment when compared to roads. The automobile is the superior form of transportation and that's what we should be building our cities around. Mass transit is just an outdated and idealistic fall-back for regions that have failed to properly develop road infrastructure.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21514 posts, RR: 55
Reply 14, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1927 times:

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 13):
The automobile is the superior form of transportation and that's what we should be building our cities around.

Uh, no. The infrastructure required for the automobile is a hideous waste of space in downtown areas. The roads, the parking spaces, etc. all just take up far too much room. And that's before we start talking about the environmental and fuel impacts of having all those cars on the road.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineLAXintl From United States of America, joined May 2000, 24823 posts, RR: 46
Reply 15, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1925 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 11):
Good thing the rail link will prove useful for far longer than 16 years.

Add in things rail operating cost and future maintenance and up keep - I'm sure free cabs can be provided for life !

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 12):
You ignore that most of the riders of this line will have nothing to do with the airport. They'll be people commuting from the suburbs into Tysons Corner (a major employment center with terrible traffic and minimal mass transit), Arlington and DC. The line will also serve many people living in the District/Arlington who reverse commute out to Tyson's Corner and the Dulles Tech Corridor.

Meh - still a $16bil boondoggle.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 13):
True, but even considering the broader appeal, these metro systems tend to lose money, fail to replay capital costs, and represent an inferior investment when compared to roads. The automobile is the superior form of transportation and that's what we should be building our cities around. Mass transit is just an outdated and idealistic fall-back for regions that have failed to properly develop road infrastructure.

   Terrible investment indeed. Government social sink holes.



From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21514 posts, RR: 55
Reply 16, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1921 times:

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 15):
Add in things rail operating cost and future maintenance and up keep - I'm sure free cabs can be provided for life !

You really think that operating and maintaining the line costs as much as building it?

And I hope you haven't forgotten about how you'd have to expand the roads to cover that many more cabs. And that doesn't come cheap either.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
User currently offlineFlyPNS1 From United States of America, joined Nov 1999, 6578 posts, RR: 24
Reply 17, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1909 times:

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 13):
The automobile is the superior form of transportation and that's what we should be building our cities around.

We have been building our cities around the automobile and it's not working anymore. In fact, the entire Dulles area was built around the automobile. The problem is that there simply isn't enough land to expand the roads anymore and traffic is at near grid-lock. Not to mention with rising energy prices, the value proposition of road based systems is starting to falter. It's no coincidence that the areas hardest hit by the economic recession have been suburban/rural areas where everyone must drive to everything.

Quoting LAXintl (Reply 15):
Add in things rail operating cost and future maintenance and up keep - I'm sure free cabs can be provided for life !

Except there's no road infrastructure to handle all those cabs and no room to build it.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 13):
Their share is essentially meaningless and have no impact on the direction or types of development.

This is so patently false and hilariously wrong I don't know where to begin. If you look at the DC area, development has aggressively followed wherever rail lines have been built. Real estate developers buy land anywhere near where a Metro station is being built. Real estate prices around a metro station (even in the suburbs) can run 2-3x what they are in suburban areas with no mass transit.


User currently offlinevinniewinnie From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 772 posts, RR: 0
Reply 18, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 1908 times:

Quoting N202PA (Reply 3):
How true that is. With a little bit of foresight in the 70s (after the demise of the W&OD Railrway), there would be a passenger line directly from Alexandria to Vienna, Reston, Herndon, Dulles, Leesburg and Purcellville. Instead, it's now a bike trail (which is nice, of course, but does nothing to ease the traffic problems of the area).

Exactly! The project is very costly for the travel time savings involved. Granted Metrorail to Loundoun is better than the status-quo, but the project will do very little to ease traffic congestion.

If the line is a success, people living closer to the city will suffer as the metrocars will be packed way before Arlington. If it is a failure, it will only give more arguments to public transportation opponents.

All in all America has shown that planning is not its forte!


User currently offlinevinniewinnie From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 772 posts, RR: 0
Reply 19, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1902 times:

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 13):
True, but even considering the broader appeal, these metro systems tend to lose money, fail to replay capital costs, and represent an inferior investment when compared to roads. The automobile is the superior form of transportation and that's what we should be building our cities around. Mass transit is just an outdated and idealistic fall-back for regions that have failed to properly develop road infrastructure.

Mmm Well since you seem to be from car obsessed Dallas I guess traffic, pollution, visually unappealing Highways, Urban sprawl and a near empty downtown doesn't bother you the slightest.

Well guess what maintaining roads has a cost, pollution has a cost, and empty downtowns do as well.

And yes public transportation takes a minimum share of all trips, but imagine this for Dallas: Average Daily ridership, 228,000 for DART. For simplicity purposes let's assume that an average person makes 2 trips a day on Dart and that average car occupancy is 1.1. Well u'd have to find space for 101,000 cars! Daunting given the level of congestion.

I dear you to calculate how much it would cost to accomodate these 101,000 cars! Many more $$$ than the cost of construction and the cost of operating DART.

Yes public transport has a cost, but its benefits in terms of not having to build road infrastructure as well as the economic boost it provides is massive, more so than the cost of building and operating the damn thing!


User currently offlinekngkyle From United States of America, joined Dec 2006, 393 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 1897 times:
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User currently offlineD L X From United States of America, joined May 1999, 11208 posts, RR: 52
Reply 21, posted (2 years 2 weeks 6 days ago) and read 1878 times:

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 17):
Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 13):
Their share is essentially meaningless and have no impact on the direction or types of development.

This is so patently false and hilariously wrong I don't know where to begin. If you look at the DC area, development has aggressively followed wherever rail lines have been built. Real estate developers buy land anywhere near where a Metro station is being built. Real estate prices around a metro station (even in the suburbs) can run 2-3x what they are in suburban areas with no mass transit.

This is 100% true, and probably the best post on the thread.

DFW, I invite you to come visit us in the DC area and look at the way urbanality is built up around public transportation hubs, not only in use, but space available, and cost. Without a doubt (and virtually without fail) the subway and its stations adds huge value to the areas that it serves.



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User currently offlineLOWS From Austria, joined Oct 2011, 1112 posts, RR: 1
Reply 22, posted (2 years 2 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 1875 times:

Quoting D L X (Reply 21):
Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 17):
Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 13):
Their share is essentially meaningless and have no impact on the direction or types of development.

This is so patently false and hilariously wrong I don't know where to begin. If you look at the DC area, development has aggressively followed wherever rail lines have been built. Real estate developers buy land anywhere near where a Metro station is being built. Real estate prices around a metro station (even in the suburbs) can run 2-3x what they are in suburban areas with no mass transit.

This is 100% true, and probably the best post on the thread.

DFW, I invite you to come visit us in the DC area and look at the way urbanality is built up around public transportation hubs, not only in use, but space available, and cost. Without a doubt (and virtually without fail) the subway and its stations adds huge value to the areas that it serves.

Or, certainly, you are welcome to visit Europe. Vienna, for example. Or my Salzburg. Buses every 10 minutes, Suburban Rail every 30. Almost always packed full.

There is a reason. Once people get out of their cars, they discover what life is like with considerably less stress.


User currently offlinedfwrevolution From United States of America, joined Jan 2010, 961 posts, RR: 51
Reply 23, posted (2 years 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1851 times:

Quoting Mir (Reply 14):
Uh, no. The infrastructure required for the automobile is a hideous waste of space in downtown areas.

Dense urban cores are obsolete. Most traffic in modern U.S. cities is suburb-to-suburb. The trip density in any one direction is too low to support mass transit.

Quoting Mir (Reply 14):
The roads, the parking spaces, etc. all just take up far too much room. And that's before we start talking about the environmental and fuel impacts of having all those cars on the road.

False argument - the majority of the U.S. is neither space nor energy constrained, especially not the parts of it that are growing. We are a net petroleum exporting country and our environmental quality standards are trending upwards.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 17):
We have been building our cities around the automobile and it's not working anymore.

It's not working how? Texas cities have token mass transit systems and are among the fastest growing metro areas in the U.S as ranked by Forbes magazine:

#1 - Austin, TX
#2 - Dallas, TX
#4 - Houston, TX
#9 - San Antonio, TX

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 17):
The problem is that there simply isn't enough land to expand the roads anymore and traffic is at near grid-lock.

There isn't enough land because the DC area failed to plan for the necessary roads and highways in advance of development. Places like Texas haven't, which is one reasons that they are growing prosperously. Like I said in my first post, mass transit is just a way to shoe-horn transit capacity in places where road planning failed.

Quoting FlyPNS1 (Reply 17):
This is so patently false and hilariously wrong I don't know where to begin. If you look at the DC area, development has aggressively followed wherever rail lines have been built. Real estate developers buy land anywhere near where a Metro station is being built. Real estate prices around a metro station (even in the suburbs) can run 2-3x what they are in suburban areas with no mass transit.

The only thing that is hilarious is that you are locked into the elementary school paradigm that mass transit is somehow inherently virtuous. Real estate development follows roads/highways all the same. Investment follows investment. Texas has numerous high property value, high-density, mixed-use developments that are located alongside arterial freeways with no mass transit connections.

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 19):
Mmm Well since you seem to be from car obsessed Dallas I guess traffic, pollution, visually unappealing Highways, Urban sprawl and a near empty downtown doesn't bother you the slightest.

Nope. DFW does not have particularly bad traffic in all directions. Right now, I would avoid the 635-corridor because of the current construction which is adding many more traffic lanes and rehabilitating the existing lanes. However, I recently traveled from DFW airport to the North Dallas suburbs and averaged over 60 mph during rush hour.

Quoting vinniewinnie (Reply 19):

And yes public transportation takes a minimum share of all trips, but imagine this for Dallas: Average Daily ridership, 228,000 for DART. For simplicity purposes let's assume that an average person makes 2 trips a day on Dart and that average car occupancy is 1.1. Well u'd have to find space for 101,000 cars! Daunting given the level of congestion.

I dear you to calculate how much it would cost to accomodate these 101,000 cars! Many more $$$ than the cost of construction and the cost of operating DART.

Believe me, I have taken a very detailed look at DART's ridership numbers. For the routes that parallel arterial freeways, the daily ridership is closer to 50,000 trips. Given average freeway lane capacity and the sheer number of freeway lanes, the result of putting all those cars back on the road is about an hour of traffic per day. This is not particularly critical as freeways are not at full capacity 24 hours a day.

You are also taking a vast leap of faith that the costs are "worth it." DART runs an operating loss of about $450 million annually. At average DOT mileage rates, that would purchase a newly constructed six-lane, 45 mile arterial freeway every year. Not to mention, those freeways run continuously, not on fixed timetables, and allow significant volumes of freight and services traffic which mass transit cannot carry.


User currently offlineMir From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 21514 posts, RR: 55
Reply 24, posted (2 years 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 1841 times:

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 23):
Dense urban cores are obsolete.

Tell that to Atlanta, Denver, DC and Charlotte, where urban growth is outpacing suburban growth by almost 1% or higher.

http://www.theatlanticcities.com/nei...or-suburban-growth-us-metros/2419/

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 23):
the majority of the U.S. is neither space nor energy constrained

DC (the subject of this thread) is definitely space-constrained.

Quoting dfwrevolution (Reply 23):
We are a net petroleum exporting country

Then think of how much more money we could make if we didn't have to spend so much on our own transportation needs.

Also, think about the incredible amount of wasted space in downtown Dallas due to almost half the land being occupied by parking lots. Revenue-generating buildings could be built on those sites, giving people places to work, shop, dine, etc. and making the city more pleasant and walkable (which is one of the great things about DC) in the process. But instead, they're little better than vacant land. That is not the way forward.

-Mir



7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
25 vinniewinnie : True through bad planning and the eagerness of local officials to permit everything knowing full well that the local developper will contribute campa
26 dfwrevolution : A whole 1% during an economic correction that has resulted in an abnormal surplus in the nationwide backlog of for-sale homes? Holy statistically ins
27 Mir : Then I guess Houston's 0.1% suburb development advantage is really insignificant. The suburban way of life has peaked. It had its run, but it's start
28 FlyPNS1 : Wait another 30 or so years as your infrastructure and population ages, some of those same Texas cities will find themselves looking a lot like Las V
29 Post contains links vinniewinnie : Everybody wants space, but faced with long commutes, people do and will downsize to live in denser communities in order to reduce the amount of time
30 STT757 : Toll Brothers is touting the Metro Rail extension in their advertisments for their communities in and around Dulles airport and Loudoun county.
31 SmittyOne : Because it is cheaper to live there than in inherently more desireable places? These sprawling new cities are kind of like the Golden Corral...not gr
32 travelin man : Having just returned from visiting Tokyo, I could not disagree with you more. A highway or freeway could not move nearly as many people as the Tokyo
33 elmothehobo : That far more to do with pro-growth policies, and cheap land than mass transit. And it's not like Texas isn't investing in mass transit, the DFW area
34 September11 : I rode on Metro subway to DCA frequently. Metro subway to IAD coming soon... and maybe BWI. Both are nice additions. I think there's rail service to B
35 Post contains links vinniewinnie : And by the way DFWrevolution: http://greatergreaterwashington.org/...cgi?src=201102/170810.png&ref=6376 Yes DC had a whole Highway system planned!
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