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Freeh Report...Paterno Knew.  
User currently offlinekpitrrat From United States of America, joined Oct 2011, 188 posts, RR: 0
Posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3166 times:

I didn't see a thread here, unless one was posted while I am writing this, feel free to housekeep this thread if necessary.

Well heres more ammo for this discussion. I have to say I tried to believe that he did not know about these acts before 2001, now its a shame that a guy like that could allow such things to go on. His legacy was already Hall of Fame before he first knew about Sanduskys actions. He knew about it and dropped the ball at the expense of many young boys safety. Shame on you JoePa. If he were still alive I think he should should be under investigation as well. Take the statue down, and everyone else including Spanier, Curley, Schultz, and whoever tried to cover this up should be prosecuted to the full extent of the law (I believed this before the report, simply solidifies it.)

In addition, all bonuses, pensions, etc should be sent back to the university or better yet send it to an abuse organization so it can be put to good use.

What should the NCAA do? If anything?

As far as the athletics of the university I still believe that it makes no sense punishing the team with a death sentence.

I believe it was Bomani Jones on Around the Horn made the comparison of the football program to a car. While it is a useful tool and having one can be a great thing, getting behind the wheel drunk can turn that car into a weapon. What Paterno, Sandusky, and the others involved did was turn a great football program into a dangerous weapon while drunk with power. By not reporting Sandusky, and furthermore, allowing him to stay around the program (literaly giving him the keys to the facilities) they drove this great thing into the ground and hurt many many people.

As I have said before, obviously these young men are the true victims and what was done to them is horrendous. Still, this report makes it clear that these men also used the University and football program at the fans and alumni's expense.

Where will this go from here, hopefully alot of years of incarceration.


Heres an article from CNN but there are obvously numerous reports online...

http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/12/us/pen...ania-penn-state-paterno/index.html

And the Freeh Report itself...

http://www.thefreehreportonpsu.com/REPORT_FINAL_071212.pdf

[Edited 2012-07-12 16:14:43]

68 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7654 posts, RR: 18
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3144 times:

Quoting kpitrrat (Thread starter):
What should the NCAA do? If anything?

I see a number of sanctions going against their football team. The most extreme case would be a huge ethics investigation by the NCAA and the program being shut down....temporarily or for good.

Quoting kpitrrat (Thread starter):
As I have said before, obviously these young men are the true victims and what was done to them is horrendous. Still, this report makes it clear that these men also used the University and football program at the fans and alumni's expense.

I believe that Penn State should be 100% responsible now for these victims' welfare. If you cover something up, you must take the fall.

Quoting kpitrrat (Thread starter):
Where will this go from here, hopefully alot of years of incarceration.

Well we will see. Watching ESPN now and they're saying "it's the most horrible scandal to happen to sports in general."



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2176 posts, RR: 0
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3137 times:

I'm, unfortunately, not the least bit surprised here. As soon as this story broke I felt that there was no way Joe Paterno was not involved with this. Large program head coaches have more sway than they should at large universities, which IMHO should be ZERO off the field, but it's all about the money honey. It's disgusting.

Quoting kpitrrat (Thread starter):
What should the NCAA do? If anything?

Sadly, until our culture stops deifying athletes just because they can throw a ball, the potential for something like this to happen again is high. The NCAA isn't really to blame here. WE are to blame here by putting such importance on a game and idolizing its participants. It is DISGUSTING to me that Joe Paterno and many other top coaches have/had salaries over twenty times what the average teacher gets paid. Who has a bigger impact on our future? Hint, it wasn't the egotistical louse who coordinated a touchdown. The only thing, I think, the NCAA can do here is to further regulate athletic fund-raising by completely taking the incentives away, and maybe, just maybe, with incentives reduced people may actually start caring again about things like education.

Quoting kpitrrat (Thread starter):
As far as the athletics of the university I still believe that it makes no sense punishing the team with a death sentence.

There was an editorial in the Chicago Sun Times this morning discussing exactly that. The author thinks the school should be punished with no football games, and subsequent loss of revenue for at least two years. I am inclined to agree. The university put the well-being of over a dozen children at stake for a stupid game. Let them reevaluate their priorities, though at this point I don't think Penn State is even going to breathe in the wrong direction. I imagine other schools are taking a very hard look at any skeletons they may have. We may have some interesting dismissals and personnel shakeups.

[Edited 2012-07-12 17:37:49]

User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15749 posts, RR: 27
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3107 times:

Quoting kpitrrat (Thread starter):
. I have to say I tried to believe that he did not know about these acts before 2001, now its a shame that a guy like that could allow such things to go on.

He's a head football coach at a major program and by some accounts the most powerful man in the state. Paterno knew everything. Most coaches do, they're control freaks who do things their way with their guys.

And Miami taking money from a scam artist was a shame. This is something else.

Quoting kpitrrat (Thread starter):
His legacy was already Hall of Fame before he first knew about Sanduskys actions

...and now it's not.

Quoting kpitrrat (Thread starter):
If he were still alive I think he should should be under investigation as well

If he were still alive he would be under arrest now.

Quoting kpitrrat (Thread starter):
What should the NCAA do?

Death penalty, now. No competition for four years. Everybody needs a timeout. There needs to be a systematic investigation and cleanup of everyone involved with the program and those who need to face charges should face charges. The program needs to go back to square one. Wipe out the culture of pride and prestige that allowed an environment that placed football over child molestation.

Also, there needs to be a Saddam-style statue toppling.
Quoting kpitrrat (Thread starter):
As far as the athletics of the university I still believe that it makes no sense punishing the team with a death sentence.

Let them transfer if they want to, assuming they come out clean in the investigation.

Quoting kpitrrat (Thread starter):
Still, this report makes it clear that these men also used the University and football program at the fans and alumni's expense.

The fans and alumni are partially at fault for all of this for putting the program above suspicion while creating and participating in an environment that would allow this to happen.

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):
Well we will see. Watching ESPN now and they're saying "it's the most horrible scandal to happen to sports in general."

...even ESPN is paying attention now, that's how big this is. Even they can't ignore it any longer.

Quoting luckyone (Reply 2):

I'm, unfortunately, not the least bit surprised here.

   If you paid attention and didn't bury your head in the sand you pretty much knew this was coming.

[Edited 2012-07-12 17:37:26]


Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3105 times:

I don't think the football team should be given the death penalty, I think that all of their teams should be given it. If the AD was lying and covering up in regards to Sandusky, what else has he lied about and covered up involving other athletic programs at Penn State? While it would punish athletes who had nothing to do with this, the actions of those who are running the athletic program as well as the coach of the main athletic program to generates the revenue that funds the entire gamut of teams there should result in a complete housecleaning from top to bottom in the Athletic Department.

To be honest, I highly doubt the NCAA would shut down the athletic teams of Penn State because of one thing and one thing only, $$$.


User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3662 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3088 times:

It's just stupid to punish students already involved in whatever programs. They did nothing but would be severely punished, some changed for life. There is no coherent argument for that. If you want to punish the university, take all sports revenues for a few years.

User currently offlinePHX787 From Japan, joined Mar 2012, 7654 posts, RR: 18
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3055 times:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 4):
To be honest, I highly doubt the NCAA would shut down the athletic teams of Penn State because of one thing and one thing only, $$$.

That is true right there. Lets say this was a different school, probably one that wasn't based off Football, we would probably see the axe on that program.



我思うゆえに我あり。(Jap. 'I think, therefore I am.')
User currently offlinejcs17 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 8065 posts, RR: 39
Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3027 times:

Of course Paterno knew. The only people who didn't think Paterno knew were fans, students, or alums of Penn State. He knew probably even before '98, when he was "first" clued into these charges as alleged by the Freeh Report. Instead of calling the authorities and having to answer questions then, maybe getting a hard time from the media, these schmucks decided to throw another batch of children into Sandusky's arms. Paterno has a legacy, but it will be that of Barry Bonds home run record -- one with a huge asterisk. Paterno was lucky because of the drooling idolatry in Happy Valley/Centre County, the fact is that he should've been charged and 'cuffed along with Spanier, Curley, and Schultz. Paterno got off easy because of death, and it's a shame. It would've been great to watch the reactions of those moron Penn State losers to see Paterno sentenced to jail or probation.

If the NCAA does not levy the death penalty (and I don't expect it will), it is an indictment against itself as the money-grubbing, PC kangaroo court it seems to be. This isn't paying a bunch of kids under the table to play for SMU. This is administrators, and the most powerful people at Penn State ignoring child molestation because they want more recruits, more donations, the best publicity possible.



America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
User currently offlinefridgmus From United States of America, joined Oct 2006, 1442 posts, RR: 10
Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3023 times:
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Don't punish the players. It's not their fault.

As for JoePa, You broke my heart.



The Lockheed Super Constellation, the REAL Queen of the Skies!
User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15749 posts, RR: 27
Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3016 times:

Quoting jcs17 (Reply 7):
Of course Paterno knew. The only people who didn't think Paterno knew were fans, students, or alums of Penn State.

   Everyone knew that Paterno knew. It's just that some people refused to believe it.

If the NCAA comes down on them, it will probably cite "lack of institutional control" but that's not what this was at all. The institution had complete and total control and used it to orchestrate a blatant and persistent conspiracy to cover up Sandusky's actions.

Quoting fridgmus (Reply 8):
Don't punish the players. It's not their fault.

They might be the only mostly innocent people there. They should leave the sinking ship now. Everyone else, however, must be punished.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlineFlighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 8571 posts, RR: 2
Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3005 times:

Louis Freeh doesn't have any credibility. He's just a ridiculous clown as far as I am concerned. Maybe Joe Paterno knew something, maybe not.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 9):
They might be the only mostly innocent people there. They should leave the sinking ship now. Everyone else, however, must be punished.

Penn State should not have a football program anymore. The best way to honor these victims is to retire the program. It has _not_ been worth it.


User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13120 posts, RR: 12
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3001 times:

This report once again proves that the cover up is the worst crime. Like too many institutions in government, education, organizations, faith groups and businesses, serious crimes are committed and too many cover them up to protect their sorry asses, their incomes and their power.
I am also concerned what other scandals, what other bad things the officials at Penn State covered up, lie about, push people out for. Did officials at the school and the economically dependent community cover up with each other about criminal activities by sports players or schools/athletic officials. Have they covered up or reduced the charges as to violent crime, sexual assault and rape on and off campus as to students, athletes and academic persons. Of course these problems often occur at every college campus. You don't want the full truth to come out so not to scare off future and current students, alumni monies and with a state college like Penn State the state's funding, the big corporate and federal aid and research grant monies.

So what does Penn State - and all other college and as this involves sports, the NCAA do ?
First of all, everyone one at all such institutions must know the rules that any sexual assault to a child or adult is morally and legally wrong and cannot be tolerated. If they see something wrong, they are obligated and are to be protected to report it to the police for investigation.
Second, clearly we need to put administrators in a position that if they lie or cover up problems, they will be fired. We saw earlier this year a top level football coach at University of Arkansas fired for his attempted cover up of a motorcycle accident involving a woman he was having an affair with and not riding with a helmet. That should be a good example of what should be done with a scandal.
Third, major pay cuts and time/age limits for school officials, especially sports coaches, along with strong oversight by persons outside the schools to end their fiefdoms.
Fourth, as to the NCAA, they should call for all officials connected with the football program and Paterno to be fired, any former coaches only allowed in facilities under strict rules, no minors in sports facilities or with any school official without at least 2 adult around. I don't want a 'death penalty' as to the football program as would badly hurt the community.

In the end, many have to commit to real changes and an attitude of real honor and no cover-ups.


User currently offlinejcs17 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 8065 posts, RR: 39
Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2987 times:

Quoting fridgmus (Reply 8):
Don't punish the players. It's not their fault.

As for JoePa, You broke my heart.

Don't punish the current players, of course. Every Penn State scholarship football player should be granted a free scholarship transfer, without sanction, to any NCAA school which accepts them under commonly agreed academic guidelines. The bottom line is that the program needs to be shut down for a year or two.

Penn State is also starting a mens D-I hockey program soon. That should be cut off/delayed as well. Penn State shouldn't be able to start new ancillary new revenue streams in absence of football.

Will the latter happen? Probably not, but it should. At the very least Penn State football needs to be shut down for a year or two.



America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7598 posts, RR: 27
Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2986 times:

I do not normally post in this forum, but I think I might as well chime in on some of my thoughts on the matter.

I'm am alumni of Penn State, spend 5 years at the school and in the State College community. I even know, to some extent, and have had interactions with some of the key individuals in this case.

I'm not surprised by the insular and closed culture. It existed at every layer of power in the Penn State, State College and Centre County organizations. It is a relatively small community, and there were many people who relished in the power, fame, and fortune that was all things Penn State. Far too many people latched on to this power train. You can draw connections from Penn State football and the growth of the university to big business issues like getting I-99 built through Central PA, getting big box stores like Target, Home Depot in State College, builders, retirement communities, restaurants, etc. all latching on to and to some degree exploiting the Penn State brand.

This is big money, big business, big donations, and big-name power hungery people that have latched on and exploited the Penn State brand to their personal benefit. Not surprised the university administration would be under pressure to keep these issues under wraps.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 11):

This report once again proves that the cover up is the worst crime. Like too many institutions in government, education, organizations, faith groups and businesses, serious crimes are committed and too many cover them up to protect their sorry asses, their incomes and their power.

Agreed. We've seen this in multiple cases, Penn State is just one of many organizations that have been inflicted with this type of cover-up. The Catholic Church, Boy Scouts, Enron, Anderson, City of Detroit, far too many politicians to count, numerous other companies.

Too often the cover-up is worst that acknowledging and correcting the wrong-doings at first.

Part of this is human nature, part of it is the culture within hierarchical organizations and feared reprocussions.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 11):
I am also concerned what other scandals, what other bad things the officials at Penn State covered up, lie about, push people out for. Did officials at the school and the economically dependent community cover up with each other about criminal activities by sports players or schools/athletic officials. Have they covered up or reduced the charges as to violent crime, sexual assault and rape on and off campus as to students, athletes and academic persons. Of course these problems often occur at every college campus. You don't want the full truth to come out so not to scare off future and current students, alumni monies and with a state college like Penn State the state's funding, the big corporate and federal aid and research grant monies.
Quoting ltbewr (Reply 11):
First of all, everyone one at all such institutions must know the rules that any sexual assault to a child or adult is morally and legally wrong and cannot be tolerated. If they see something wrong, they are obligated and are to be protected to report it to the police for investigation.

I think everyone has learned that lesson now.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 11):
Fourth, as to the NCAA, they should call for all officials connected with the football program and Paterno to be fired, any former coaches only allowed in facilities under strict rules, no minors in sports facilities or with any school official without at least 2 adult around. I don't want a 'death penalty' as to the football program as would badly hurt the community.

Almost everyone from the former program is now gone. I think there maybe two assistants left, but they cleaned house at PSU with the new coach and there were others in the athletic department that were told to leave.

Not sure what else PSU could do, since they've cleaned the ranks of everyone involved in the Administration and Athletic department that appears to have any knowledge of this case. That being said, I'm pretty sure there are others in the local and state government who have some degree of blame for not taking action years ago. The Penn State Board of Trustees and Second Mile administration also have some blame to share.


That being said, we now all have hindsight and more facts than anyone appears to have known at the time. We are also taking about 1998 and 2001, society has come a long way since they and identifying and reporting abuse situations. I also believe at first, after reading the report that this case was not as black and white as we now know in hindsight.

At this point it has become the blame game. Let the justice system take care of those who are still alive. At some point we need to move past the blame and be sure things are fixed for the future.

Penn State is a large institution that has done a lot of good for a lot of people. The hundreds of thousands of alumni and faculity have gone on to do good things with their lives. I had 5 incredible years at Penn State that were much, much more than football (I also was there during some of the worst seasons ever). I have incredible live-long friends, memories, and got an excellent education while I was there. It is tough to see my alma mater go through this mess, but I put it in perspective that it really only involved a few individuals that do not represent the rest of us.


User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7598 posts, RR: 27
Reply 14, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2976 times:

Quoting jcs17 (Reply 12):
Penn State is also starting a mens D-I hockey program soon. That should be cut off/delayed as well. Penn State shouldn't be able to start new ancillary new revenue streams in absence of football.

This is another example of what is wrong with college athletics.

The Penn State D-I hockey program is all because some absurdly rich alumni donated $80M to the university to build a hockey arena and essentially fund his own hockey team. Penn State has traditionally had one of the better club hockey teams. However, I can think of a lot of ways for the better good of society to spend $80M than to build a monument (to the donor) and for a college hockey team. How about at least donating to a degree program, or scholarship for that matter?

Quoting jcs17 (Reply 12):
Don't punish the current players, of course. Every Penn State scholarship football player should be granted a free scholarship transfer, without sanction, to any NCAA school which accepts them under commonly agreed academic guidelines. The bottom line is that the program needs to be shut down for a year or two.

This certainly is a unique situation. I believe now that Penn State will likely sanction itself to some degree it hopes of appeasing the NCAA.

The NCAA will find itself in a unique situation. On one hand, this situation is being handled by the criminal justice system and the actors involved are all removed from their positions in the university, guilty, facing charges, or dead. Those individuals involved are being punished and/or have been convicted in the court of public opinion.
On the other hand, the NCAA almost has to set some sort of prescedent or it looks silly in less minor situations of wrong-doings. A lot of the issues at heart is all of the money that college athletics produces and the NCAA really is aware of this and enables it.

I think Penn State will likely impose some type of sanctions on itself, like taking all TV and bowl revenue over a period of time to charity. I think they'll try to look like they did something to make the NCAA happy.

I think the death penalty would do good in the sense of just giving a "time-out" to let things settle down. However I think that unfairly penalizes a lot of people that have absoletely nothing to do with this whole issue.


User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3142 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2971 times:

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):
...even ESPN is paying attention now, that's how big this is. Even they can't ignore it any longer.

I may be mistaken, but I thought ESPN broke the story in the first place.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 3):

Death penalty, now. No competition for four years. Everybody needs a timeout. There needs to be a systematic investigation and cleanup of everyone involved with the program and those who need to face charges should face charges. The program needs to go back to square one. Wipe out the culture of pride and prestige that allowed an environment that placed football over child molestation.

100% correct.
Yes, it's punitive. It should be. Yes, football student-athletes will be impacted. Too late, they are part of that culture. Transfer already if it's that important. If not transfering, Penn State should completely honor the scholarships for their duration, a further financial punishment.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 5):
It's just stupid to punish students already involved in whatever programs. They did nothing but would be severely punished, some changed for life. There is no coherent argument for that. If you want to punish the university, take all sports revenues for a few years.

It's too late. The power of the program appealed to these players, the aura of the coach and his staff. They are part of that same culture. They need to be yanked out of it. As said, they can transfer -- if they are truly talented and have a future, they will be picked up elsewhere. If not... there are dozens of Division III colleges within a 200 mile radius where they could play for the love of the game... and pick up an education.

I say all this as a big college football fan. But that pales in importance.

-Rampart


User currently offlineBMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 15749 posts, RR: 27
Reply 16, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2966 times:

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 11):
I am also concerned what other scandals, what other bad things the officials at Penn State covered up, lie about, push people out for

Considering the web of financial dealings between the people involved, including Paterno, it wouldn't surprise me to see a RICO indictment handed down as well eventually.

Quoting ltbewr (Reply 11):
I don't want a 'death penalty' as to the football program as would badly hurt the community.

The community is partly at fault for enabling this and putting the football program on a high enough pedestal to allow the cover up to go on.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 13):
I'm not surprised by the insular and closed culture. It existed at every layer of power in the Penn State, State College and Centre County organizations. It is a relatively small community, and there were many people who relished in the power, fame, and fortune that was all things Penn State. Far too many people latched on to this power train.

   I don't recall the details, but I have heard that Paterno was openly opposed to expanding State College's airport, precisely to maintain the insular culture where such malfeasance could go unnoticed.



Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7598 posts, RR: 27
Reply 17, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2960 times:

Quoting rampart (Reply 15):
I may be mistaken, but I thought ESPN broke the story in the first place.

The Grand Jury stated working on this in 2009 or 2010. It was actually the Harrisburg Patriot-News that broke the story (that went under the radar) back in March 2011. No one really picked-up on it then. The story didn't really break until November 2011 when the grand jury finding were released.

That being said, I heard comments about Sandusky about 10 years ago along the lines of "he's a weirdo...." although I honestly can't remember the exact statements some players told me about the guy (too much Yuengling obviously).

Heck, I remember when Sandusky bought my friends and I a round of drinks once. I thought it was pretty cool and he seemed like a nice guy on the few instances I met him.

Quoting rampart (Reply 15):
It's too late. The power of the program appealed to these players, the aura of the coach and his staff. They are part of that same culture. They need to be yanked out of it. As said, they can transfer -- if they are truly talented and have a future, they will be picked up elsewhere. If not... there are dozens of Division III colleges within a 200 mile radius where they could play for the love of the game... and pick up an education.

I say all this as a big college football fan. But that pales in importance.

This same culture can be found at about ~50 other majort D-I unversities too.

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 16):
Considering the web of financial dealings between the people involved, including Paterno, it wouldn't surprise me to see a RICO indictment handed down as well eventually.

Oh there are a lot of financial connections between people involved. Who were the big-name donors to 2nd Mile? What PSU administrators had connections to some of the big-name projects in the community?

Quoting BMI727 (Reply 16):
I don't recall the details, but I have heard that Paterno was openly opposed to expanding State College's airport, precisely to maintain the insular culture where such malfeasance could go unnoticed.

Ok, I worked at the airport for 3 years there, I never heard this story/rumor. This one sounds like an urban legend to me.
The did lengthen the runway at one point to be able to land charter aircraft. There were talks about building a new passenger terminal but all of that was tabled in the post-9/11 era when traffic declined and then SCE/UNV saw US drop PIT-SCE, then DL drop CVG-SCE.

Honestly, most of the problems here really stem of the power of the institution, not necessarily any one person in totality be it Paterno, Spainer, etc.


User currently offlinestasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3283 posts, RR: 6
Reply 18, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 2951 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 17):
Honestly, most of the problems here really stem of the power of the institution, not necessarily any one person in totality be it Paterno, Spainer, etc.

And why didn't former Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar never press charges back in 1998? We will never know as Gricar went missing in 2005 and is now presumed dead (was declared dead by a court in 2011). And what exactly did Pennsylvania Attorney General (and now the Governor) Corbett know, and what did he or didn't the Governor do to help or hinder the investigation, as he was VERY connected to the politicians in Centre County? There is MUCH more to this story, in my opinion.......

Source: http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/ind...former_centre_county_da_ray_g.html

Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/09/sp...rapped-in-2005-gricar-mystery.html

[Edited 2012-07-12 22:15:27]


"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3142 posts, RR: 6
Reply 19, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2830 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 17):
It was actually the Harrisburg Patriot-News that broke the story (that went under the radar) back in March 2011. No one really picked-up on it then.

Thanks, that's right, I recall hearing that now that you remind me. (Obviously mentioned in a later news report, I don't follow the Patriot-News.)

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 17):
This same culture can be found at about ~50 other majort D-I unversities too.

I agree. Probably more, and include basketball and hockey. I would hope that the microscope of public sentiment is causing administrators and athletic directors everywhere to walk on egg shells and truly scrutinize the operations. Another outcome might be even stronger silencing and cover up of additional abuses elsewhere. And for that, perhaps NCAA ought to enact a zero-tolerance, death penalty rule for ANYONE engaged in this abusive criminal behavior. A big enough disincentive would help.

Some of the loudest criticism is coming from partisans of those other large D-1 partisans, which I figure is somewhat clouded by rivarly. Where the outrage should be loudest is the non-athlete students, alumni, people who work for Penn State. It's their alma mater or workplace that has been compromised.

-Rampart


User currently offlineJetBlueGuy2006 From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 1660 posts, RR: 1
Reply 20, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2821 times:

Honestly, I am not surprised at all. As some have said, it is easy to see that the most powerful person at Penn State was not the President or A.D, but Joe Paterno. While on paper there might be an organizational structure, if Joe P. wanted something done, it would get done.

What I found interesting is that it seems like the senior leadership knew this. I read that the former VP for student affairs was upset with the President and AD because she could not dicipline players in accordance with university policy, Joe wanted to handle it. When she brought it up, they acknowledged it..but subsequently changed university policy and she was asked to resign.

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 14):
This is another example of what is wrong with college athletics.

The Penn State D-I hockey program is all because some absurdly rich alumni donated $80M to the university to build a hockey arena and essentially fund his own hockey team. Penn State has traditionally had one of the better club hockey teams. However, I can think of a lot of ways for the better good of society to spend $80M than to build a monument (to the donor) and for a college hockey team. How about at least donating to a degree program, or scholarship for that matter?

It was, I think, part that, but also the Big Ten has been wanting to start a hockey program for the last couple years. The only problem was that the only big Ten Members with hockey programs are: Michigan State, Michigan, Ohio State, Wisconsin and Minnesota. That falls 1 short of the required NCAA requirement for a league tournament. So the CCHA will be dissolved after this season with the B1G teams moving to the new league and the rest of the CCHA teams moving to various conferences.

But, I think what this whole issue has taught many is that power should not be so concentrated within big time athletics.



Home Airport: Capital Region International Airport (KLAN)
User currently offlineluckyone From United States of America, joined Aug 2008, 2176 posts, RR: 0
Reply 21, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 2770 times:

With respect to the issue of students being punished, I think it's unfortunate but such is life. Life is not fair. Things don't always go your way, and as the saying goes "One bad apple can ruin an entire bunch." Look at airport security, a few loony toons have negatively impacted the flying experience for billions. As I was reading many of the articles and opinions related to what should happen to Penn State's athletic program, I kept thinking that Richard Nixon's Presidency was brought down by covering up something far less sinister, far less damaging, and ultimately inconsequential. Against the law as it may be, nobody was actually hurt by his actions against George McGovern, not even McGovern's Campaign, which was already in the toilet. That is most decidedly not the case here. The environment that allowed this to happen needs to be changed.
Things happen that shouldn't happen -- ask the dozen (or likely more, pedophiles don't magically start their work in their 40's...and there are probably many who have still kept silent) or so young boys who will never forget this and have to live the rest of their lives knowing that the whole world knows what happened to them. SOMEBODY has to be an example to others, and it should start now. Not when it happens again, but now. Let it be a lesson to the athletes as well as the fans and consumers not to get so caught up in something like a game that such a terrible, terrible thing can be allowed to happen. Reign in accountability. I will add that while athletic scholarships indeed help some students, most NCAA athletes are not on scholarship, and a great deal of them have poor academic performance that is tolerated simply due to their talents. Most of them do nothing in athletics after their college years. I say wipe the slate clean.

[Edited 2012-07-13 15:50:57]

User currently offlinejcs17 From United States of America, joined Jun 2001, 8065 posts, RR: 39
Reply 22, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 4 days 16 hours ago) and read 2663 times:

Quoting PSU.DTW.SCE (Reply 14):

I think the death penalty would do good in the sense of just giving a "time-out" to let things settle down. However I think that unfairly penalizes a lot of people that have absoletely nothing to do with this whole issue.

It's that very argument that allowed Jerry Sandusky to keep molesting kids. The "We don't want to bring untoward attention to our university or face NCAA sanctions" is the problem. How very Penn State of you. Minimize the issue, and try to duck rightly deserved punishment. Fortunately, for you Penn State alum/fan, the NCAA is completely worthless as an organization and is all about money. You'll probably get the same punishment that a school gets for an agent giving a player some cash -- no bowls for X number of years and a loss of a few scholarships. Big whoop. It still allows Penn State to rebound very easily. My hope is that the NCAA renders the football program at Penn State worthless for 20 years as they did SMU.



America's chickens are coming home to rooooost!
User currently offlinePSU.DTW.SCE From United States of America, joined Jan 2002, 7598 posts, RR: 27
Reply 23, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 2565 times:

Quoting jcs17 (Reply 22):

It's that very argument that allowed Jerry Sandusky to keep molesting kids. The "We don't want to bring untoward attention to our university or face NCAA sanctions" is the problem. How very Penn State of you. Minimize the issue, and try to duck rightly deserved punishment. Fortunately, for you Penn State alum/fan, the NCAA is completely worthless as an organization and is all about money.

Thanks for trying to have a civil discussion.

I am not at fault. I am not getting punished. Way to go ahead and make some gross generalizations about me.


User currently offlineImperialEagle From United States of America, joined Jan 2006, 2615 posts, RR: 23
Reply 24, posted (2 years 2 months 2 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 2510 times:
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Just some passing thoughts I have had on this topic------

While I certainly don't condone any of this behavior towards unwilling participants, it makes me wonder how many (if any) of these "victims" did not have any particular objection at the time these incidents were being perpetrated?

Another thought since all this went down is I would think the victims would be pretty sick and tired of all the spotlight on the players and not so much spotlight on the victims. I think it is a lot more important that the victims be recognized and taken care of. The big-business university is well insured. Let it fend for itself.

Older men having their way with younger men has been going on since the dawn of man. Sometimes those on the recieving end actually find that they like it.
Anybody who attended a military school knows it goes on----on the "down-low" of course. Or anywhere else there is a large concentration of men.
For instance, nobody likes to be reminded of it------ or think about such things-----but what did our fathers, brothers, grandfathers, uncles, etc. do out on those islands in the Pacific during the WWII years? Thousands of men (mostly in their late teens and twentys) and no women to speak of. Come on. There was all kinds of stuff on the down-low going on. I would imagine most of the participants would become rather vociferous homophobes on their return to "normal life" back home after the war.

Anyway, again, I certainly don't condone what went on at Penn State, and if my kid had been a victim I'm sure I would flip!



"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough!"
25 luckyone : You cannot be serious? An adolescent old boy...who has little concept of sex, it's meaning, or it's consequences...vs a 200lb predatory man...does it
26 BMI727 : They were underage, so it doesn't matter. And in other news the Paterno family will launch their own investigation since they don't like the truth. I
27 Post contains links MD-90 : Utterly irrelevant when the victims were 10 and 12 year old boys. Here's a good article from one of ESPN's columnists: The sins of the father:
28 mham001 : As victim myself, I find this post utterly despicable. In several ways.
29 Post contains links slider : Absolutely. Terminate with extreme prejudice. SMU got spanked from prominence and has never recovered for doing FAR less. Do you hear the words comin
30 Post contains images JetBlueGuy2006 : 10 and 12 year old children, really? I honestly can't believe someone would think that these kids were actually at fault because they did not try to
31 rampart : I was going to suggest deletion of this post, and I didn't think it possible that anyone, anyone legal at any rate, actually believed this kind of lo
32 us330 : Disagree. This program deserves the death penalty. If the NCAA gave the death penalty to SMU for paying players and allowing boosters to reward them
33 ImperialEagle : Yes, I do get it. Not meant to be despicable. Just meant to cause thought in a different direction. At no point am I trying to fault the victims, so
34 BMI727 : The direction that seeks to justify molestation? That sort of thought you expressed in your previous post is part of why this was hidden for so long
35 MD-90 : All of the known victims of Sandusky were minors aged 8 to 17.
36 mham001 : If they weren't minors, then they weren't victims. This statement is just stunning. Does it make it ok if they go gay? What kind of ratio of straight
37 johns624 : What difference does it make if some weren't minors? All the ones connected to the charges that he was convicted of were. What direction would that b
38 ltbewr : So far, not a peep from the NCAA. They tend to move like an a snail going up a steep hill. They tend to take years and not weeks to make a decision. T
39 DeltaMD90 : It almost seems like this football team and coach has a cult following... even in the face of this evidence people are denying he did anything wrong.
40 ImperialEagle : I am not blaming the victims and I never said I was. O.K. all of the "known" victims. But where there is smoke there is fire. There are more. "Stunni
41 Post contains links and images Mir : They're too busy sanctioning CalTech for violating a rule designed to prevent a school from letting its athletes slide by academically. No, seriously
42 us330 : Glad to know the NCAA is doing its best to clamp down on schools whose athletic programs threaten the institutional integrity of a university
43 ImperialEagle : Like it or not it is what it is. You guys need to stop putting words in my mouth and trying to turn my opinions into something they are not just beca
44 johns624 : Yes, and certain opinions, carried out, turn into felonies.
45 mham001 : Bullsh*t, that's exactly what you said. And yes, getting raped at 12 is a fairly dramatic occurrence. "Sometimes those on the recieving end actually
46 Post contains images ImperialEagle : What part of the above statements do you guys not get? I can twist and turn your statements around as well but choose to try to remain on topic.
47 Mir : Let's have the full quote, shall we? It's that first word that we have such a problem with. It's the same as if you said "I don't condone molesting c
48 luckyone : No one is putting words in your mouth, sir. We are using the words that have come out of it. By asking if the victims enjoyed non-consensual, predato
49 BN747 : Title:...Paterno Knew. I'll take Freeh Report as my vindication, when this story broke,and was first discussed here (can't seem to locate it)... I str
50 BMI727 : No kidding. Where are DLX and seb146 now? Will they admit they were wrong and come around to the right side of the issue? Or will they persist and be
51 BN747 : Thanks for that.. But not needed, my perspective and Freeh's Report and all those PSU adamant supporters who rallied around Joe immediately afterward
52 Post contains links slider : http://deadspin.com/5926679/plane-fl...ns-take-down-the-statue-or-we-will Aerial banner over Penn St: TAKE DOWN THE STATUE OR WE WILL Wow. Good for th
53 Post contains links luckyone : http://news.brown.edu/pressreleases/2012/07/paterno The fallout is just beginning. Between federal investigations (because you know they're coming), a
54 Post contains links ATTart : Paterno statue to be removed. http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/22/us/pen...aterno-statue/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
55 okie : NCAA to weigh in on Monday morning 07.23.12 NCAA president Mark Emmert in reference to PSU "Never seen anything as egregious" The only other time that
56 DeltaMD90 : I was reading one article that said that "a source" said what's coming to them is worse than getting the death penalty for a year. Loss of scholarshi
57 BMI727 : They could spare the players quite easily by allowing them to transfer without sanction. Anything less than the death penalty for several years is a
58 okie : They let the players transfer away from SMU, the problem with that was it just bumped other players at the schools they transferred to down the food
59 BMI727 : There really isn't anything. Penn Staters are already playing the "everyone's against us" card. As if winning football games could unrape kids any mo
60 ltbewr : The removal of the entire 'shrine', not only of Paterno's statue, but of the wall sculpture of football players, plaques of each of the seasons of Pat
61 Ken777 : Since Penn State is a state school the financial burden will filter down to the taxpayers in the state. There needs to be a resolution for the victim
62 BMI727 : It's weird that the university is crowing about their donations and ticket sales (morons continue to hand over their money) when they should be cryin
63 rampart : It is, but is not within the the state university system. As an entity to itself, it receives less than 10% of its funding from state appropriations,
64 WestJet747 : Well the reason they had such a powerful program was because they were breaking the rules... I don't think loss of scholarships and revenue is worse
65 BMI727 : They created and perpetuated a culture that allowed it to happen, where the football staff was above suspicion and Paterno had power to keep an inves
66 bjorn14 : Well maybe not now and directly but your PSU degree will evoke smirks from future employers/associations. Not only did he know but he actively covere
67 Ken777 : Oddly enough I believe that Penn State has suffered quite a bit since this all blew up. Few universities have been shaken as much as Penn State has -
68 PHX787 : The money that Penn State gets from taxes therefore needs to be prioritized to the victims. They have 4 years away from Bowl games and limited schola
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