Sponsor Message:
Non Aviation Forum
My Starred Topics | Profile | New Topic | Forum Index | Help | Search 
What Happens If A Presidential Candidate Dies?  
User currently offlinecedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8060 posts, RR: 54
Posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 2861 times:

In the UK, we vote for parties, not individuals. Whichever party wins the most seats in the House Of Commons chooses who is Prime Minister (and other cabinet positions). If the leader of a party died in the run-up to an election, I don't think it would change anything because the only ballot his or her name would be on, would be in his or her own constituency. Perhaps the election would be delayed by a week or two to allow the party affected to elect (within it's own members) a new leader, then off the polling stations as before.

Whereas in the US, the Presidency is a directly-elected post. So if the incumbent or the challenger died just before election day, what would happen? After months of personality-based electioneering, I don't see how the Republicans could put a different person in the race in the last week of October. Or something happened to Obama, would the Dems be happy to run Biden as a presidential candidate?

So what would happen? Is there a precedent? Is there a procedure in place?


fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
20 replies: All unread, jump to last
 
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5363 posts, RR: 14
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2797 times:

As we say in our house when we have a question that can not be readily answered:

TO THE INTERNET!

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_happe...candidate_dies_before_election_day

GOP uses Rule #9 of their rules:

http://www.gop.com/images/legal/2008_RULES_Adopted.pdf

and the DNC uses Article 3, Section 1(c):

http://www.cftech.com/BrainBank/POLI...MACHINES/DemocraticPartyRules.html

The party chooses another candidate.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
User currently offlineplaneguy727 From United States of America, joined Mar 2007, 1240 posts, RR: 1
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2794 times:

Actually, we don't have a direct election in the US. When US folks vote they are actually voting for elector representatives in the Electoral College. As a result, the candidate can be changed right up until the election.

This article provides a decent summary of the Electoral College process - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_College_(United_States) See the part about death of a candidate



I want to live in an old and converted 727...
User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 2774 times:

There probably is some mechanism in place in case this were to happen, but since it has yet to happen, we won't know until it happens.

There have been cases in which a candidate for elected office has died prior to the general election. In 2002, Senator Paul Wellstone of Minnesota died in a plane crash 11 days before the general election and his name was stricken from the ballot and the Democratic-Farmer-Labor Party in Minnesota (The name the Democratic Party runs under in Minnesota due to the state level branches of the Democratic Party and the Depression-era Farmer-Labor Party merging in the 1940s.) replaced him with former Vice President Walter Mondale.

In some states, the party will traditionally ask the spouse of the deceased candidate (or elected official) to run in their stead. When Rep. Sonny Bono died in a skiing accident in 1998, his wife Mary ran in the special election to serve the remainder of his term and was eventually elected to a full term and has remained a member of Congress since.

A great example of how things can go wrong when the elected candidate dies prior to taking office is the "Three Governors" controversy in Georgia back in 1946-47. The governor-elect, Eugene Talmadge, died in December of 1946 prior to taking office and his supporters knew there was a chance that he may not live to take office a number of months earlier. Their own research of the state laws showed that there was not anything in the State Constitution or any statutory precedence if the governor-elect were to die before taking office. Their research established that the General Assembly would chose the new Governor based on the second and third place candidates. Since the Republicans had not fielded a candidate for Governor (Georgia was a hard-core conservative Democrat state back then.), all that needed to be done was to field a write-in candidate that if Eugene Talmadge were to die prior to taking office, would be rubberstamped into office since it would have been a hand-picked candidate of the Democratic Party. They secretly fielded Eugene's son Herman as a write-in candidate. One slight problem, at the time, the State of Georgia had just ratified a new State Constitution in which the Office of Lt. Governor was established and the 1946 election was going to fill that position and per the new Constitution, the Lt. Governor would replace the Governor if they died in office. However, there was not anything about the Lt. Governor-elect replacing the Governor-elect were they to die prior to taking office.

When Eugene Talmadge died in December of 1946, the General Assembly convened after the first of the year and Talmadge's supporters immediately sought to install his son Herman as Governor based on their own determination about the matter. Meanwhile, supporters of the newly elected Lt. Governor Melvin Thompson were seeking to have him installed as Governor. Governor Ellis Arnall, the lame duck Governor, refused to leave office until the matter was settled and claimed that the General Assembly had no right to elect the Governor (Governor Arnall was a political enemy of the Talmadge family.). So for a brief period there were three men claiming to be the Governor of Georgia. Ellis Arnall stepped down and threw his support behind the Lt. Governor, which still left the state with two men claiming to be the governor. Two months later, the Georgia Supreme Court declared that the Lt. Governor was to be the Governor until a special election in September 1948, which was won by Herman Talmadge and continued the family's place in the political history of the state. It was pretty embarrassing to the state as it made national and international headlines.


User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13040 posts, RR: 12
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 7 hours ago) and read 2618 times:

One problem with a death, incapacity or criminal conviction of any candidate if very close to the General Election, like less than 30-40 days, is that the election machines, mail/absentee/provisional ballots will have the name of that person on them. There have been several elections where the 'dead' person has won as the replacement of that candidate was too late to be on the ballot.
As to a US Presidential election and the winning candidate Presidential is dead/unable to serve, most likely the VP would take the place and new VP candidate chosen per the procedures cited in links in reply #1. If a VP candidate was to be dead/unable to serve, then most likely the national committees would chose a candidate in an emergency meeting as per their rules.


User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7143 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 2542 times:

Quoting cedarjet (Thread starter):


In the UK, we vote for parties, not individuals.

Really I could have sworn your system was like ours where you vote for the individual MP in your local constituency.


User currently offlinecedarjet From United Kingdom, joined May 1999, 8060 posts, RR: 54
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 2478 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 5):
Really I could have sworn your system was like ours where you vote for the individual MP in your local constituency.

Will write more later but I'm at CDG T1 where there are - what was I thinking? - no power sockets. I feel like that guy who flips out in the hotel lobby ("when was this building built, the thirties?").

But yes, of course you are right, we vote for local MPs and the party who win the most seats appoints a prime minister. Of course that choice is known beforehand, either as the incumbent or as the leader of the opposition. But if they were unable to serve, it's not a matter for the public, the party would simply select a new PM (or new leader of the opposition).



fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 2430 times:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 3):
but since it has yet to happen, we won't know until it happens.

It did happen in the United States.

The election of 1872. Horace Greely, the candidate for the Democrats died on Nov 29, 1872. The popular votes had been cast, but the Electoral College votes had not been case.

Electors committed to Greely voted for four different candidates for President and eight different candidates for Vice-President. Greely received three votes which were disallowed by Congress.

Grant had easily won re-election, so the split of electoral votes had no impact of the final outcome.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But to summarize the OP question -

As noted above - if the candidate dies before election day - the major parties have rules in place for substitution of another candidate.

However, issues with updating ballots with a new name and write-in vote rules different in the various states could make it impossible for a party to get folks to vote for the replacement candidate.

I know of no state where a vote for a dead presidential candidate would be disallowed, and if the deceased candidate received the majority of votes - his/ her electors would almost certainly be certified.

Once the electors are certified by the designated official in each state - they cannot be changed.

Up until the electoral college vote - the rules are up to the several states.

After the election, but before the Electoral College votes - the party must rely upon the discretion of the individual electors to vote as per the party rules for choosing a replacement candidate.

The 20th Amendment to the US Constitution addressed what happens after that.

After the electors vote - but before the Congress certified the election the presidential candidate dies - the votes will be counted for the vice presidential candidate.

If the Congress has certified the election but the president elect dies before the inauguration - the Vice-President elect will become the president.


User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3882 posts, RR: 5
Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 2404 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 5):
Really I could have sworn your system was like ours where you vote for the individual MP in your local constituency.

We do vote for an individual MP in our local constituencies, but what I think cedarjets point was was that the party affiliation of the candidate is what determines which party gets to form the government after the election is called - we don't vote for a Prime Minister (whose office doesnt formally exist - its all based on tradition  The PM gets his benefits and powers from being the First Lord of the Treasury), the Queen asks the leader of the majority party to form a government (although she can ask anyone - and that has happened).

In the UK, if a candidate dies then it depends on when the death occurred - after a certain point, the ballot is fixed and will go ahead as declared, and if the deceased candidate wins the election then a by-election will be held soon after, but for the purposes of forming the majority their election to a seat will count.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6537 posts, RR: 9
Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2365 times:

In France, the question was raised recently, since one of the candidates for last May presidential election, former judge and green candidate Eva Joly, fell during the campaign and spent a couple of days in the hospital as a result. We learned that the election could have been postponed for that reason. Apparently the rule isn't clear cut, and since she was a minor candidate, the date wasn't changed, but if one of the 5 main candidates had broken a leg, it would probably have been postponed. No need for someone to die, as you can see. If one did die then it would probably be postponed for 3 months or something like that. If the president dies in office, there is no replacement like in the US, a new election happens 3 months later, that's why the current date for the election is linked to the death of president Georges Pompidou.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3882 posts, RR: 5
Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2360 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 9):
she was a minor candidate
Quoting Aesma (Reply 9):
if one of the 5 main candidates had broken a leg, it would probably have been postponed

I find it somewhat deplorable that, in public general elections, the candidates in this case are already split into two groups - minor and major - with different standards and entitlements offered.

How does someone determine if a participant is a minor candidate prior to the general public saying so?


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6537 posts, RR: 9
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 2349 times:

In fact the official campaign (the last few weeks before the election) is very egalitarian, each candidate (10 this time) has equal air time on TV and radio, they must even get the same prime time slots, etc. They also get the same money to make TV spots and must follow the same rules (you can't use the colors of the flag, for example).

Other that that past results play a role in determining the importance of candidates, but it's possible in that case that the decision was taken after having asked the candidate if she wanted time to recover. Her campaign being a train wreck already, and postponing an election probably not very green when all the printed material has already been made etc., she would have declined.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinesrbmod From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 14 hours ago) and read 2330 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 7):

Quoting srbmod (Reply 3):
but since it has yet to happen, we won't know until it happens.

It did happen in the United States.

The election of 1872. Horace Greely, the candidate for the Democrats died on Nov 29, 1872. The popular votes had been cast, but the Electoral College votes had not been case.

Electors committed to Greely voted for four different candidates for President and eight different candidates for Vice-President. Greely received three votes which were disallowed by Congress.

Grant had easily won re-election, so the split of electoral votes had no impact of the final outcome.

What's interesting is I don't recall that even being discussed in any American History class at all when I was in school, even AP American History or in college. I guess that's because he was defeated in the popular vote in a landslide and the Electoral College vote was essentially ceremonial. Now had it been a close election, it might have been mentioned in the history books more thoroughly.


User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 2313 times:

Quoting srbmod (Reply 12):
I don't recall that even being discussed in any American History class

Maybe Coach Jackson was a better educated teacher than I thought at the time.

My US History class in high school was 68-69 - a strange election year - and this exact question came up early in September - maybe because we all had so vivid recent memories of Robert Kennedy's death.

He knew about Greely and more details than I posted above - immediately without checking a book, though he made us research the details and challenge him if he had anything wrong.

His point was that no matter what strange " What If " we dreamed up - there is likely a previous event, and laws/ procedures to handle the situation.

Though out the rest of the year, we had a " What If " day every couple weeks - where someone came up with such a question, and the rest of us had to research the answer - without the Internet.

Tied vote in the Electoral College; No candidate wins a majority; State results challenged in court; Impeachment; Deaths of President, VP and others in the chain of succession; etc.

I saw/ heard nothing in the 2000 post-election discussions which we had not covered in my high school history class.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19419 posts, RR: 58
Reply 14, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 2293 times:

Along these lines, I wonder what the specific outcome in this election would be if it turned out that Romney falsified his Bain records and committed a felony and blah blah blah... (I'm not interested in arguing whether he did or not; just suppose he did for the sake of this argument).

Would it be Gingrich or Paul? Or someone else? Can anyone think of a situation like that in a Presidential election when the presumptive nominee became ineligible shortly before the Convention?


User currently offlinegarnetpalmetto From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 5366 posts, RR: 53
Reply 15, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 2271 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
Along these lines, I wonder what the specific outcome in this election would be if it turned out that Romney falsified his Bain records and committed a felony and blah blah blah... (I'm not interested in arguing whether he did or not; just suppose he did for the sake of this argument).

For the sake of argument, I would think he could still stand for election assuming the Republican Party chose to keep him as the nominee. Eugene Debs ran in 1920 on the Socialist ticket despite being in Atlanta Federal Penitentiary after being convicted for sedition. Debs received over 900,000 votes IIRC and came in 3rd behind the major party candidates (Harding and Cox).

[Edited 2012-07-16 15:27:17]


South Carolina - too small to be its own country, too big to be a mental asylum.
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 16, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 6 hours ago) and read 2235 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
Would it be Gingrich or Paul? Or someone else? Can anyone think of a situation like that in a Presidential election when the presumptive nominee became ineligible shortly before the Convention?

Only Rick Santorium has met the Republican Party rules requirement for a plurality in five states. Technically Gingrich and Paul cannot be placed before the convention for consideration.

However, I think a temporary rule would be passed to allow them - and the smoke filled room of party bigwigs would choose Newt.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 14):
I wonder what the specific outcome in this election would be if it turned out that Romney falsified his Bain records and committed a felony

I could not see any way the Justice Department would pursue an indictment before the convention. It would be a bad strategic move. Let Romney name a VP candidate, who would then become the nominee if Romney withdrew.

If there was an indictment - I think Romney would fight it and continue to run, and maybe be elected.


User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 17, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2214 times:

Some other 'strange' things which have occured.

1972 - Missouri Senator Thomas Eagleton was nominated at the Democratic Convention as the Vice Presidential candidate in mid-July. It quickly came out that Eagleton was taking Thorazine and had been hospitalized for his depression in the past. On August 1, Eagleton withdrew and Presidential Candidate McGovern eventually settled on Sargent Shriver as the VP candidate.


1876 - Samuel J Tilden won the majority of the popular vote (4,284,020 to 4,036,572 - 51.0% to 47.9%) and had 184 electoral votes. Rutherford B Hayes had 165 electoral votes. 20 electoral votes were contested in the states of South Carolina (7), Florida (4) and Louisiana (8). Both parties reported their candidate won the popular vote and submitted electors. Also one elector from Oregon was disqualified and a replacement appointed.

Northern Republican chosen governors certified the vote for Hayes in two states. In Florida the elected Democrat Governor certified for Tilden. In Louisiana a Democrat candidate for governor certified for Tilden. In South Carolina never certified the electoral votes.

The Democratic governor of Oregon disqualified a Hayes elector and appointed a Democrat elector who voted for Tilden.

Faced with a growing controversy, the Congress passed a new law on Jan 29, 1877 for a 15 member Electoral Commission - five members of the Senate and five members of the House and five members of the Supreme Court. The commission was made up of 3 Republican Senators, 2 Republican Representatives, 2 Democrat Senators and 3 Democrat Representatives. Two Republican justices and two Democrat justices choose the only true independent Supreme Court justice as their fifth person. Thus the commission was 7 Republicans, 7 Democrats and 1 independent.

However the Illinois Legislature elected Supreme Court Justice David Davis to the US Senate. Davis promptly resigned from the Supreme Court - and with all the other members Republican - the commission became 8 Republicans and 7 Democrats.

All decisions of the Commission were 8-7 votes - with Hayes getting all the disputed Electoral Votes - and winning the election 185-184. There were several challenges in the Congress - which could over turn the commission decision if both houses approved. They did not - but Hayes was only officially certified as the new President on March 2 - at 4:10 am. Hayes then resigned as Governor of Ohio, and was sworn in as the 19th President at noon on March 4, 1877 - less than 56 hours later.

Some say the "Compromise of 1877" was a deciding factor in allowing Hayes to become President. The Democrats stopped fighting the election - and in return got an end to military occupation of the southern states, appointment of Republican state officials over elected Democrats. The disputed Southern states would not vote for another Republican presidential candidate until 1956 when Louisiana went for Ike, and 1964 when South Carolina went for Goldwater.


1912 - William Howard Taft and Teddy Roosevelt split the Republican Party badly. Sitting President Taft was nominated, and his VP - James Sherman was also nominated. Sherman died on Oct 30, 1912 of Bright's Disease - serious kidney problems. He could not be replaced on any ballots. Electors for Taft/Sherman all voted for Nicholas Murray Butler - who was President of Columbia University and an active New York Republican. The issue was moot because Woodrow Wilson easily won the Electoral Vote.


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 19419 posts, RR: 58
Reply 18, posted (2 years 2 weeks 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 2206 times:

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 16):
Only Rick Santorium has met the Republican Party rules requirement for a plurality in five states. Technically Gingrich and Paul cannot be placed before the convention for consideration.

However, I think a temporary rule would be passed to allow them - and the smoke filled room of party bigwigs would choose Newt.


Do you think so?

First of all, Santorum has said that he's out, so I'm not sure he'd come back in. But he's also batdung crazy and the party knows there's no way he would be elected. I mean, the man wants to outlaw masturbation. That's just not gonna fly.

They know that Gingrich has performed poorly among registered Republicans and that he's even less popular among independents.

I think that the only GOP candidate who could even come close to giving Obama a run for his money (barring Romney) is Paul.


User currently onlinestealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5678 posts, RR: 45
Reply 19, posted (2 years 2 weeks 23 hours ago) and read 2160 times:
Support Airliners.net - become a First Class Member!

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 13):
My US History class in high school was 68-69 - a strange election year - ..... ..... maybe because we all had so vivid recent memories of Robert Kennedy's death.


It was indeed , I was in Junior High in upstate NY, spent a day or two tramping the streets of Poughkeepsie handing out Eugene McCarthy campaign material for the upcoming Democratic primary, convincingly won by Robert Kennedy despite being some time after he was assassinated in LA.

Quoting cedarjet (Thread starter):
In the UK, we vote for parties, not individuals. Whichever party wins the most seats in the House Of Commons chooses who is Prime Minister (and other cabinet positions).

That is the theory in places like the UK, Australia, Canada etc... in reality the elections are fought on the personalities of the leaders .. most voters have little idea of their local representative and vote on party lines or for the leader they think the better.



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlinerfields5421 From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 7607 posts, RR: 32
Reply 20, posted (2 years 2 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 2136 times:

Quoting stealthz (Reply 19):
most voters have little idea of their local representative and vote on party lines or for the leader they think the better

To a certain extent, I believe a lot of our congressmen are also elected on the same basis.


Top Of Page
Forum Index

This topic is archived and can not be replied to any more.

Printer friendly format

Similar topics:More similar topics...
So What Happens If Drought Persists Till February posted Fri Oct 12 2007 15:42:33 by RJdxer
What Happens If Natalie Holloway Is Found.. posted Thu Mar 23 2006 04:15:11 by Airlinelover
US Immigration Question. What Happens If... posted Sun Jun 12 2005 19:21:34 by Highpeaklad
What Happens If Israel Bombs Iran? posted Wed May 4 2005 21:35:23 by RJpieces
Traffic Ticket: What Happens If The Info Is Wrong? posted Sat Sep 4 2004 19:00:09 by MNeo
What Happens If GWB Wins In November posted Tue Jun 29 2004 19:48:39 by N6376m
What Happens If Bush Loses In November? posted Sun Jun 27 2004 19:38:35 by Greasespot
What Happens If You Just Eat Crisps posted Tue May 25 2004 01:29:21 by Work4bmi
What Happens If A Bunny Becomes A NRA Card Holder posted Fri Jan 23 2004 10:18:08 by 707CMF
What Will You Do If Your Candidate Does Not Win? posted Mon Oct 18 2004 21:01:45 by Corpsnerd09