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General Motors To Jettison Opel/Vauxhall? Holden?  
User currently offlinestasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3283 posts, RR: 6
Posted (2 years 2 months 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 4538 times:

General Motors seems to be signalling auto industry analysts that it plans to close the Opel and Vauxhall brands after several financial quarters of massive losses, plant closures, and poor sales in a very poor European economy. Opel's fourth CEO in three years was suddenly replaced by executives at GM headquarters last week, as General Motors management in Detroit panicked in the realization that the flood of red ink in GM's European operations threatens to take the entire corporation back into bankruptcy. "GM must not have been satisfied with the (European) business plan," one auto analysts remarked "This kind of message is catastrophic."

Two weeks ago, the Opel supervisory board approved a recovery business plan, which runs through 2016, in a step toward returning GM Europe to profitability. But real savings in a restructuring will not come until GM negotiates a new agreeement with labor unions to close the Bochum, Germany plant - after 2016.

"We've lost $14 billion in the last 12 years. It's got to stop," GM Worldwide CEO Akerson said of GM Europe last month. "We're looking at some sort of agreement with our unions that would allow us to consolidate." In June, Akerson said it could be 2 years before GM was profitable in Europe again.

Auto analysts said the move showed the U.S. automaker's growing intolerance for the losses in Europe. If GM sell or mothballs its Opel/Vauxhall operations, would GM Holden be next? The Oz market is very small in comparison with Asia or North America - and Holden has been dependent on engineering support from Opel for years. Could Opel, Holden, and Vauxhall brands all be replaced by a resurgent global Chevrolet brand, as many auto analysts have predicted??

Source: http://www.autonews.com/apps/pbcs.dl...a-step-away-from-giving-up-on-opel

[Edited 2012-07-16 20:05:55]


"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
75 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3649 posts, RR: 5
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 months 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 4518 times:

Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
If GM sell or mothballs its Opel/Vauxhall operations, would GM Holden be next? The Oz market is very small in comparison with Asia or North America - and Holden has been dependent on engineering support from Opel for years. Could Opel, Holden, and Vauxhall brands all be replaced by a resurgent global Chevrolet brand, as many auto analysts have predicted??

They probably have enough hot engines and parts stashed away to keep building cars for awhile after GM left.


User currently offlinePs76 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 months 6 days 10 hours ago) and read 4474 times:

Hi!

Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
Could Opel, Holden, and Vauxhall brands all be replaced by a resurgent global Chevrolet brand

Speaking only from the UK the Vauxhall brand is still a far far better seller than Chevrolet. Don't get me wrong though my family owns a Chevrolet. It was very economical to buy, it's reliable (touch wood), we love it! But you just don't see many Chevrolets around and you still see a ton of Vauxhalls. Personally I have always thought it was because people for some reason percieve Vauxhall (and Ford) to be somehow quite "British" cars whereas the brand name Chevrolet is no mistaking it's USA thorough and through!

I may be completely crazy with that last statement though!

Many thanks.

Pierre


User currently offlineJJJ From Spain, joined May 2006, 1835 posts, RR: 1
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 months 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 4436 times:

Quoting Ps76 (Reply 2):
the brand name Chevrolet is no mistaking it's USA thorough and through!

GM did a huge mistake in just slapping the chevy badge on some poorly made daewoo models.

Despite the American heritage, Chevrolet mostly means "cheapo Korean" in Europe, and despite enormous marketing efforts (they're sponsoring the Spanish football team, for example), their market quota is extremely small except for some Eastern European countries like Russia.

Chevy sells less cars in Spain than Opel sells Astras (not to mention corsas).


User currently offlineflipdewaf From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 1574 posts, RR: 0
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 months 6 days 8 hours ago) and read 4415 times:
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Quoting Ps76 (Reply 2):
I may be completely crazy with that last statement though!

I know where you are coming from, they don't tend to sell any of their big brash models that I kind of associate with the US market.

Fred


User currently offlinevc10 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2001, 1411 posts, RR: 15
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4407 times:

The problem with Chevrolet cars , well in the UK at least , is that although they are quite cheap to buy new , for their size they are expensive to run due to their high emissions and poor MPG when you compare them to their competition.

In the UK again Vauxhall had two of their models in the top 10 sales list, but that does not mean they are making a profit on their sales.

PS76 ----I agree that the Vauxhall brand name is perceived as being British and so helps with sales. Even GM must have realized this as GM Europe models throughout the world are sold under the name Opel except in the UK where they are sold as Vauxhall


User currently offlineJJJ From Spain, joined May 2006, 1835 posts, RR: 1
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 months 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 4403 times:

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 5):
they don't tend to sell any of their big brash models that I kind of associate with the US market

At least they're offering the Camaro now (and in Chevy dealers, not like the Corvette that is sold on Cadillac dealers).

Not that they're selling any, but look good on the dealer floor.


User currently onlineracko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4857 posts, RR: 20
Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4353 times:

I've said it before:

They might as well just pull out of the German market altogether. The Opel brand is damaged, yes, but nothing like the comically horrible brand that is Chevrolet. It is considered literally the worst car brand there is. That's not hyperbole: Here is the brand strength index published by the ADAC. If you're looking for Chevrolet, start looking at the bottom.

And that's before murdering Opel if your scenario plays out.


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10736 posts, RR: 9
Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 months 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 4348 times:

GM is, like Ford a desaster. Imperialistic policy, only interested in money, not in building truly competitive cars, destroying all brands.

User currently offlinevc10 From United Kingdom, joined Nov 2001, 1411 posts, RR: 15
Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4339 times:

Here are the figures for the UK in 2011and you can see that here Vauxhall are second in the market after Ford, but both of them have suffered a reduction in their share of the market. The three German makers are then 3rd 4th and 5th with their share increasing. For me the eye opener was the decline in the share of the market that the French car makers have suffered

http://www.best-selling-cars.com/bri...and-marques-in-the-united-kingdom/


User currently offlinePs76 From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 months 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 4326 times:

Hi!

Quoting vc10 (Reply 9):
For me the eye opener was the decline in the share of the market that the French car makers have suffered

I wonder why that is. Their cars don't seem to have changed substantially or their business models. For Renault it's kinda ironic seeing that from what little I know I think they started hiring British designers to make the exterior looks of their vehicles yet suffered a loss in the British market. I'm not sure if that is true though.

Many thanks.

Pierre


User currently offlinemham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3649 posts, RR: 5
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4298 times:

Quoting na (Reply 8):
like Ford a desaster. Imperialistic policy, only interested in money, not in building truly competitive cars, destroying all brands.

Ford doesn't make competitive cars? Last I looked, they make 2 of the top 3 best selling cars in Britain.

[Edited 2012-07-17 07:29:56]

User currently offlineJJJ From Spain, joined May 2006, 1835 posts, RR: 1
Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4292 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 11):
Last I looked, they have the best selling car in (either) Europe of Britain - by far.

The best selling car in Europe is the VW Golf.

In any case, lumping Ford with GM is a huge mistake. Ford know how and when to adapt to different tastes, markets and trends. The new 3-cyl 1.0 ecoboost is a winner.


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10736 posts, RR: 9
Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 months 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 4281 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 11):
Ford doesn't make competitive cars? Last I looked, they make 2 of the top 3 best selling cars in Britain.

Ok, Ford is not as bad as GM, granted. I was a bit unjust to throw them in the same sentence as GM.
But Ford has also been exploiting brands like GM does and wonders why it doesnt work.
Ford builds good everyday transports, their cars are ordinary bread-and-butter, but they dont have much sense for the finer things.


User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9389 posts, RR: 29
Reply 14, posted (2 years 2 months 6 days ago) and read 4270 times:

Quoting vc10 (Reply 9):
The three German makers are then 3rd 4th and 5th with their share increasing. For me the eye opener was the decline in the share of the market that the

Cross counting, the VW group has about 377000 cars sold in the UK (VW, Audi, SEAT, SKODA and Porsche) clearl the market leader.

Quoting na (Reply 8):
GM is, like Ford a desaster. Imperialistic

if there's one imperium in global car manufacturing, it the empire created by the Piech / Porsche families under the VW umbrella.

Quoting mham001 (Reply 11):
Ford doesn't make competitive cars?

Ford , indeed, is lenghts better than Opel. They are not on level with the VW group, but far ahead of Opel by all means. If I had only the choice between Opel and Ford, I'd clearly go for Ford.


Opel is a desaster by all means, the workers council runs the place instead of the management, backed by politicians of almost all colors, insisting on decisions that make no business sense. A 3,some billion government loan was luckily prevented by the FDP liberal party. Us taxpayers would have never seen the money back.

Instead of shaping up the company by downsizing the number of employees they give job guarantees. A job guarantee is like writing a bad check. How can a company give a job guarantee when the company does not have a sales guarantee? Opel sold 15% less in the first half year, how can you maintain the workforce by selling less cars?

Of course, GM is at fault in many ways. They sell Korean junk cars under the name of Chevrolet on Opels home turf but do not allow Opel to sell in Asia. Why Korean cars in first place when you have under employed factories in Europe? That metal could be assembled as well in Eisenach/Germany or the Polish factory or both. Or Bochum as well.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10736 posts, RR: 9
Reply 15, posted (2 years 2 months 6 days ago) and read 4261 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 14):
if there's one imperium in global car manufacturing, it the empire created by the Piech / Porsche families under the VW umbrella.

Well, thats a business empire that works because their credo is as much about quality as about money. And their workers are payed better than almost anywhere else in the motor industry.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 14):
Of course, GM is at fault in many ways. They sell Korean junk cars under the name of Chevrolet on Opels home turf but do not allow Opel to sell in Asia. Why Korean cars in first place when you have under employed factories in Europe? That metal could be assembled as well in Eisenach/Germany or the Polish factory or both. Or Bochum as well.

I dont know anyone who would buy such cars, and I dont understand such people (I´d rather get a three year old Golf than that Korean-Chevy crap). But some people do buy them, and they´ll likely not pay the price which would be asked for when built here.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 14):
Opel is a desaster by all means, the workers council runs the place instead of the management, backed by politicians of almost all colors, insisting on decisions that make no business sense. A 3,some billion government loan was luckily prevented by the FDP liberal party. Us taxpayers would have never seen the money back.

Thank god that was avoided. Typically politician crap: they would rather throw billions into a single big company to help saving 30.000 jobs rather than saving 100.000 in a hundred smaller companies.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6664 posts, RR: 11
Reply 16, posted (2 years 2 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4253 times:

Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
a resurgent global Chevrolet brand

So, is Chevrolet making money in Europe ?



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7410 posts, RR: 5
Reply 17, posted (2 years 2 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4240 times:

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 14):
if there's one imperium in global car manufacturing, it the empire created by the Piech / Porsche families under the VW umbrella.

I'd be interested in knowing what stake the Porsche Piech families now have in VW, or did they just get richer selling their Porsche shares to VW.


User currently offlinecanoecarrier From United States of America, joined Feb 2004, 2839 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (2 years 2 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4235 times:

Quoting mham001 (Reply 11):

Ford doesn't make competitive cars? Last I looked, they make 2 of the top 3 best selling cars in Britain.

And isn't the Ford Transit the most popular van sold in the UK as well?



The beatings will continue until morale improves
User currently offlinePanHAM From Germany, joined May 2005, 9389 posts, RR: 29
Reply 19, posted (2 years 2 months 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 4225 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 17):
I'd be interested in knowing what stake the Porsche Piech families now have in VW, or did they just get richer selling their Porsche shares to VW.

Since PLC are open books that should be visible on the net. At least when you know under whoich companies they have their holdings. May be even under their real names, . In any case, they have enough shares to be able to control the empire.



E's passed on! That parrot is no more! He has ceased to be! E's expired and gone to meet 'is maker!
User currently onlineracko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4857 posts, RR: 20
Reply 20, posted (2 years 2 months 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 4213 times:

Ford and GM are day and night when it comes to management. Absolutely unfair to group these two together.

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 14):
Opel is a desaster by all means, the workers council runs the place instead of the management, backed by politicians of almost all colors, insisting on decisions that make no business sense.

If you could see past your political convictions you would see that this is utter bullshit. The core problems that got Opel in the first place were created by the management, not by the workforce! In fact their worker's council were ringing the alarm bells as early as 1990, but GM, blinded by temporary profits, ran the company straight into wall. If Opel had been run by their worker's council, as you claim, they wouldn't be in this mess by now. The workforce saw the quality drop and all innovation cease - but to stop that trend would have cost money, and would have looked bad in the next quarterly result.

VW faced the same quality issues Opel faced (caused by the same people, as VW, jealously looking at Opel's short-term profits, just hired them) - but at least they didn't stop investing in R&D and design, because Piech is probably the ultimate "car guy". They saw in time that the quality was a huge problem, and corrected it.

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 17):
I'd be interested in knowing what stake the Porsche Piech families now have in VW, or did they just get richer selling their Porsche shares to VW.

>50%.

Quoting Aesma (Reply 16):
So, is Chevrolet making money in Europe ?

lol


User currently offlinepetertenthije From Netherlands, joined Jul 2001, 3369 posts, RR: 11
Reply 21, posted (2 years 2 months 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 4173 times:

Quoting racko (Reply 20):
They saw in time that the quality was a huge problem, and corrected it.

I am not too sure that VW where in time. Their TSI engines are having plenty of issues. In particular with the timing belt.



Attamottamotta!
User currently offlinestasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3283 posts, RR: 6
Reply 22, posted (2 years 2 months 5 days 15 hours ago) and read 4103 times:

Quoting vc10 (Reply 9):
For me the eye opener was the decline in the share of the market that the French car makers have suffered

Which may be why GM is now in a partnership with PSA!!   



"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
User currently offlineltbewr From United States of America, joined Jan 2004, 13115 posts, RR: 12
Reply 23, posted (2 years 2 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4069 times:

I doubt any of these 3 brands will disappear soon. There are too many marketing issues, old historical issues, politics, dealer issues and so on that will force them to keep the brands as well all of their remaining ones for the foreseeable future. GM has ditched in recent years Saturn, Pontiac and Oldsmobile in NA, losing customers, dealerships and their employees to Toyota, Nissan and Honda as well as Ford.
But for some high performance cars such as BMW, M-B, Audi, there is no great advantage of making cars in western Europe but to keep politicians and unions happy.


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6664 posts, RR: 11
Reply 24, posted (2 years 2 months 5 days 12 hours ago) and read 4066 times:

I disagree, especially for the German brands you mention, the "made in Germany" sticker is essential.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
25 kiwirob : Yup you should see how pissed US buyers are when they discover that their new 3 series comes with a made in South Africa sticker instead of made in G
26 JJJ : IIRC it was just the 1.4 in the 160/170/180hp version. The 120-140s were ok. Still, Fiat had no problem with their 1.4Tb (up to 170 with multiair)
27 PanHAM : Ignacio Lopez is long time history, VW has corrected what he did and certainly kept the good ideas and Opel had the chances as well, they just did no
28 kiwirob : Do you really think the German govt would allow GM to sell Opel to the Chinese? It would be fun seeing them try, however I bet they would end up owne
29 PanHAM : The government can issue a friendly wish but they have nothing to say if that takes place. There is no law preventing the sale of a company to an ove
30 JJJ : VW seemingly has had no problem doing precisely that. They acquired lower-cost partners in Seat and Skoda to better spread out the costs of innovatio
31 PanHAM : GM owns Opel since decades, they owned Opel when it bwas an innovative company. No one denies that GM has made a lot of mistakes and the 14 billion U
32 JJJ : No one is saying they should stand alone, but as things seem they'll end up bought for peanuts by some Chinese conglomerate who wants to break in the
33 MillwallSean : What are GM supposed to do? They do their utmost to boost their core Chevrolet brand in Europe. Signing partnership with Man Utd and Spainish football
34 racko : This is crucial. GM Europe in Zürich was put in place in 1986 - right around that time the short-term thinking started.
35 Ps76 : Hi! I totally agree. They suffer from a big stigma of being an American Car with an American name and for some reason very few people in Europe are in
36 PanHAM : If Opel is sold it can be sold only to another car manufacturer. The stand-alone was reflecting what somebody said - that the German government buys
37 vc10 : PanHAM, Just a couple of questions 1] Regarding take overs, and this cannot apply to Opel as it is already owned by a foreign company, but regards oth
38 PanHAM : Airlines are, Lufthansa has to be makority owned by German citizens due to traffic rights, That is dealt with by issung name shares. Certain military
39 mham001 : This is something I don't understand. When GM uses its platforms across many lines, it's bad. Same with Ford (remember Jaguar). Yet, when VW uses 3 p
40 vc10 : PanHam, Thanks for the information, but I am not sure I understand the difference between the German Government and the Federal Republic of Germany. H
41 PanHAM : VC10 - the government has a mandate for 4 years to run the affairs of the country named Federal Republic of Germany. DB AG is a privatelya run company
42 vc10 : PanHam I would like to get more info from you but we had better stop before the moderators accuse us of getting off topic. Thanks again
43 PanHAM : yes, let's switch back to Opel. The state of hesse, where the main plant in Ruesselsheim is located, bought a couple of 100 police cars from Opel but
44 vc10 : The problem as I see it is that Opel / Vauxhall are just another cog in a global company that is just interested in the profit, and if more of that ca
45 stasisLAX : And VW still has a very poor quality image here in the USA - and rightfully so given the problems that they have had with their Mexico production pla
46 sccutler : Interesting... I have a Jetta built in Puebla, and at 83,000 miles, it is rock solid. No issues at all.
47 BMI727 : I'll admit to not following GM's European division that closely, but I hope Opel doesn't go anywhere. I don't care one bit for Chevy's Korean derived
48 na : With Opel having the lowest image of all German car brands thats quite a task. A bit sad, because for the first time since ages Opel builds relativel
49 PanHAM : Yes, jeder popel faehrt 'nen Opel. But they had a good image in the 50, 60s and into the 70s. The 70s Commodore were prestige cars. Absoluteley par w
50 melpax : Holden, Ford & Toyota's local operatons (Mitsubishi & Nissan also had plants here, Nissan became import-only in 1993, Mitsubishi in '08) were
51 kiwirob : If you think a Holden is a good car you have very low standards, the fit and finish on them is terrible, it's always been terrible, Ford Australia bu
52 PanHAM : I know they have plants in Australia, I just did not check when the protection by tarriffs was removed. Still, from what I understand , the local made
53 BMI727 : I doubt they could import them as is, it would have to be phased in over a generation. But I'd much rather drive a Holden than a Chevy, and for that
54 lewis : My 2010 Jetta was OK but still had some minor quality and finishing problems. Back home, German cars, including VWs, are rattle free, at least when t
55 kiwirob : The Jetta for the US market are inferior to the Euro market Jetta, lower quality plastics, different rear suspension, plus add in the fact that VW dr
56 lewis : Never driven the European Jetta but even the 2010 US Jetta that I had was way ahead of the new one as far as quality goes. The old one had some probl
57 TheSonntag : In the 1990s, Opel engineers had developed modern direct injection Diesel engines. What did GM do? They made a marketing campaign against Diesel engin
58 ME AVN FAN : -- without the Vauxhall brand, GM in the U.K. is nobody - Witout Opel, GM will be ZERO in Continental Europe. VW, Renault, Peugeot-Citroën, FIAT jus
59 stasisLAX : GM Europe has bled a river of red ink for so long (Opel hasn't turned a yearly profit in 14 years!) that a "shining knight" buyer- like Magna was a c
60 Ken777 : GM has no excuse in Korea as the car industry in general there is doing well. If there is a problem then it is a GM-US screw-up. Same with Opel. GM h
61 ME AVN FAN : GM itself, which means the main corporation is the cancer. GM in general is on the death-bed. In a not too distant future it will be "General what ?
62 PanHAM : Opel started a marketing campaign this week, right into a receding market. Sure, Opel is better quality than the Cehvrolets made in korea but does not
63 oldeuropean : And that will cost them another ten thousands of customers in the Ruhr area, who bought above average of this crap because it was built there.[Edited
64 racko : Opel already is bleeding engineers at an alarming rate. Pretty much all German car makers are actively poaching them away. And can you blame them for
65 mham001 : Lost in these discussions is that many if not most of the German models sold here are not made in Germany. Why? Specifically. Both are going down and
66 BMI727 : I love it when people tell me what I know. I've seen plenty of poorly built cars and plenty of good. That's part of the attraction, for me anyway. Th
67 Post contains links stasisLAX : The executive firings continued Opel yesterday. Opel's chief financial officer and the head of engineering and development were both replaced by Gener
68 ltbewr : As to Holden and Ford in Australia, the sales of the Commodore and Falcon RHD cars in country have dropped like a rock from the top of sales lists in
69 757MDE : Maybe not a really important market (I do not know really) but Renault is very big in South America. They even have assembly plants here in Medellin
70 vc10 : In the 1950s , when Vauxhall wanted to design their own cars for their markets, Detroit would not allow them to do so , but instead they had to scale
71 Aesma : There is overproduction of millions of cars in the EU currently, all those manufacturers are closing plants, so I don't see why they would buy Opel.
72 JJJ : It was not Opel engineers, the modern direct injection diesel was developed by Fiat engineers, then given over to Bosch (not GM) for commercial devel
73 na : No wonder, the Americans pay a lot less for those cars than we Europeans do.
74 kiwirob : Where did you pull this pile of misinformation from. The only American derived cars manufactured in Australia were the first and second generation Fa
75 maxter : I put it to you that the majority of the car buyers in Australia would disagree with you, when you consider the relative positions of the two players
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