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F1 2012: German Grand Prix  
User currently offlineQFA380 From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 2075 posts, RR: 1
Posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3910 times:

Well another fortnight another race.

The McLaren's had a fantastic day nearly a second ahead of Alonso's Ferrari.

Here the times from the first practice session.
Times
01 Jenson Button McLaren 1:16.595 27 laps
02 Lewis Hamilton McLaren 1:17.093 0.498 22 laps
03 Fernando Alonso Ferrari 1:17.370 0.775 21 laps
04 Michael Schumacher Mercedes 1:17.382 0.787 20 laps
05 Sergio Perez Sauber 1:17.413 0.818 28 laps
06 Nico Hulkenberg Force India 1:17.599 1.004 17 laps
07 Nico Rosberg Mercedes 1:17.915 1.320 27 laps
08 Felipe Massa Ferrari 1:17.995 1.400 22 laps
09 Pastor Maldonado Williams 1:18.020 1.425 20 laps
10 Romain Grosjean Lotus 1:18.130 1.535 21 laps
11 Kamui Kobayashi Sauber 1:18.226 1.631 22 laps
12 Sebastian Vettel Red Bull 1:18.339 1.744 21 laps
13 Valtteri Bottas Williams 1:18.422 1.827 28 laps
14 Daniel Ricciardo Toro Rosso 1:18.709 2.114 30 laps
15 Kimi Raikkonen Lotus 1:18.831 2.236 14 laps
16 Jules Bianchi Force India 1:18.972 2.377 21 laps
17 Jean-Eric Vergne Toro Rosso 1:19.039 2.444 34 laps
18 Vitaly Petrov Caterham 1:19.674 3.079 24 laps
19 Heikki Kovalainen Caterham 1:19.963 3.368 24 laps
20 Mark Webber Red Bull 1:20.122 3.527 27 laps
21 Charles Pic Marussia 1:20.169 3.574 20 laps
22 Timo Glock Marussia 1:20.539 3.944 18 laps
23 Pedro de la Rosa HRT 1:21.138 4.543 24 laps
24 Dani Clos HRT 1:21.740 5.145 27 laps


In other news, not sure if this was mentioned in the last thread but Webber has signed up for another year with RedBull, shame I was hoping he'd move over to Ferrari.

114 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineBill142 From Australia, joined Aug 2004, 8451 posts, RR: 8
Reply 1, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 23 hours ago) and read 3903 times:

Except in P2 McLaren were miles off.

User currently offlineScarletHarlot From Canada, joined Jul 2003, 4673 posts, RR: 56
Reply 2, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3845 times:

I am at this race. Weather was certainly a factor today. Should clear up tomorrow. Cheering for Schumacher and Rosberg since we are here as guests of Mercedes AMG Petronas. Hopefully Schumi has a good race.


But that was when I ruled the world
User currently offlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2614 posts, RR: 5
Reply 3, posted (2 years 2 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3842 times:
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Here's the result of a rather wet qualifying session:

Pos Driver Team Time Gap
1. Fernando Alonso Ferrari 1m40.621s
2. Sebastian Vettel Red Bull-Renault 1m41.026s + 0.405
3. Mark Webber Red Bull-Renault 1m41.496s + 1.838
4. Michael Schumacher Mercedes 1m42.459s + 2.880
5. Nico Hulkenberg Force India-Mercedes 1m43.501s + 3.329
6. Pastor Maldonado Williams-Renault 1m43.950s + 3.492
7. Jenson Button McLaren-Mercedes 1m44.113s + 3.565
8. Lewis Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 1m44.186s + 0.875
9. Paul di Resta Force India-Mercedes 1m44.889s + 4.268
10. Kimi Raikkonen Lotus-Renault 1m45.811s + 5.190
Q2 cut-off time: 1m39.729s Gap **
11. Daniel Ricciardo Toro Rosso-Ferrari 1m39.789s + 2.424
12. Sergio Perez Sauber-Ferrari 1m39.933s + 2.568
13. Kamui Kobayashi Sauber-Ferrari 1m39.985s + 2.620
14. Felipe Massa Ferrari 1m40.212s + 2.847
15. Romain Grosjean Lotus-Renault 1m40.574s + 3.209
16. Bruno Senna Williams-Renault 1m40.752s + 3.387
17. Nico Rosberg Mercedes 1m41.551s + 4.186
Q1 cut-off time: 1m16.686s Gap *
18. Jean-Eric Vergne Toro Rosso-Ferrari 1m16.741s + 1.048
19. Heikki Kovalainen Caterham-Renault 1m17.620s + 1.927
20. Vitaly Petrov Caterham-Renault 1m18.531s + 2.838
21. Charles Pic Marussia-Cosworth 1m19.220s + 3.527
22. Timo Glock Marussia-Cosworth 1m19.291s + 3.598
23. Pedro de la Rosa HRT-Cosworth 1m19.912s + 4.219
24. Narain Karthikeyan HRT-Cosworth 1m20.230s + 4.537

Webber will take a 5 place grid penalty for a gearbox change, so he will start 8th, and Schumacher will start 3rd. It should be an interesting race. I'll be cheering for both Williams, Vettel, and anyone other than Alonso or Schumacher :P



Boeing 777 fanboy
User currently offlinestealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5697 posts, RR: 44
Reply 4, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 22 hours ago) and read 3773 times:
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Interesting moment in the Thursday press conference where Seb Vettel said his first visit to Hockenheim was as a 5 Y/O in 1992 when his father took him to see Michael Schumacher race, wonder how the senior Mercedes AMG Petronas driver sitting next to him felt?

Sunday News,
RedBull are being investigated for breaches of engine mapping rules that increase mid range exhaust output that allegedly increases the gas flow through the diffuser during cornering.

Not sure how this works as the cars"reportedly" do not have blown diffussers any more, indeed the exhaust is mandated to exit out the top of the chassis to preclude this.

According to some reports they may have to start from the Pit Lane.

IMHO if they are in breach of the rules*** they should not start at all.


*** I must add these are rules I do not agree with.

[Edited 2012-07-22 02:57:36]


If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6669 posts, RR: 11
Reply 5, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 19 hours ago) and read 3744 times:

Quoting ScarletHarlot (Reply 2):
I am at this race. Weather was certainly a factor today. Should clear up tomorrow. Cheering for Schumacher and Rosberg since we are here as guests of Mercedes AMG Petronas. Hopefully Schumi has a good race.

I'm jealous, how did you get invited ?



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinestealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5697 posts, RR: 44
Reply 6, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3732 times:
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Watching the German GP right now. Shame the locals can't be bothered to turn up!!

I am no fan of the artificial races in places that have no racing heritage or passion, those Middle Eastern, Asian(and others) locations will be familiar to many readers here but the lack of patronage at the German Grand Prix takes the sting out of that "purist" argument.

If the Euro purists don't want to see the races then maybe the future is elsewhere!

Let's drop the emasculated Hockenheim race, no one cares anyway!



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlineQFA380 From Australia, joined Jul 2005, 2075 posts, RR: 1
Reply 7, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3724 times:

Have to see what the stewards say about Vettel's pass of Button on the second last lap, Button sounded gutted.

Congrats to Alonso on another win, I'd say his recent consistency, he's largely got the championship in the bag.

Disappointing race for Webber unfortunately.

Quoting stealthz (Reply 6):

It does look pretty weak when the stands are empty...


User currently offlinesudden From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 4130 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 15 hours ago) and read 3683 times:

Vettel got what he deserved!
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/101426

I wish they could hand the crybaby a penalty as well for having a go at Hamilton as he overtook Vettel fair and square.



When in doubt, flat out!
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6669 posts, RR: 11
Reply 9, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3657 times:

Quoting stealthz (Reply 6):
Watching the German GP right now. Shame the locals can't be bothered to turn up!!

I am no fan of the artificial races in places that have no racing heritage or passion, those Middle Eastern, Asian(and others) locations will be familiar to many readers here but the lack of patronage at the German Grand Prix takes the sting out of that "purist" argument.

If the Euro purists don't want to see the races then maybe the future is elsewhere!

Let's drop the emasculated Hockenheim race, no one cares anyway!

The price of the tickets might have to do with the attendance.



New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineLarshjort From Denmark, joined Dec 2007, 1474 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 11 hours ago) and read 3629 times:

Quoting sudden (Reply 8):
Vettel got what he deserved!
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/101426

I wish they could hand the crybaby a penalty as well for having a go at Hamilton as he overtook Vettel fair and square.

Yes, a deserved penalty. According to Tom Christensen they discussed and agreed earlier this year that you are not allowed to overtake with all 4 wheels off the track. And with regards to Hamilton overtaking Vettel I think they need to look at DRS rules. Why was Hamilton allowed to use DRS? He was not within 1 second of Vettel, he was 1lap +1 second behind.That said Vettel need to control his frustrations.

/Lars



139, 306, 319, 320, 321, 332, 34A, AN2, AT4, AT5, AT7, 733, 735, 73G, 738, 739, 146, AR1, BH2, CN1, CR2, DH1, DH3, DH4,
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6669 posts, RR: 11
Reply 11, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 10 hours ago) and read 3610 times:

DRS rules are about position on the track, physically. It was always like that and we often see leaders using DRS behind lapped cars (in fact Alonso's engineer told him during the race to do this, and he did), but also lapped cars doing it, however usually just to gain speed and defend their own position against a rival also lapped that is using DRS.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineEZEIZA From Argentina, joined Aug 2004, 4967 posts, RR: 24
Reply 12, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 5 hours ago) and read 3583 times:

Well, great fun today, with the first 3 positions very close to eachother for the entire race. Alonso was superb in keeping his nerve and not making mistakes despite having the pressure of Vettel, Button and even LH (what the hell was he doing?). About Vettel's manouver ... I was unaware of this specific rule, but honestly, I don't like it, at leat in today's race. Vettel's move seemed legit, pure racing if you ask me.

anyway, Forza Ferrari!!!! Unbelievable how the car has improved throughout the season!!



Carp aunque ganes o pierdas ...
User currently offlineTristarAtLCA From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2007, 616 posts, RR: 0
Reply 13, posted (2 years 2 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3567 times:

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 12):
About Vettel's manouver ... I was unaware of this specific rule, but honestly, I don't like it, at leat in today's race. Vettel's move seemed legit, pure racing if you ask me.

Vettel's move was in no way legit and if he had given the spot back as he should have he would still have finished second and kept it due to Buttons tyres being finished. Vettel made a poor decision in the cockpit and got rightly punished.



If you was right..................I'd agree with you
User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10736 posts, RR: 9
Reply 14, posted (2 years 2 months 21 hours ago) and read 3520 times:

I just saw the start and the first 5 laps, and then had better things to do - driving a Ferrari Italia on a wonderful afternoon!

Coming back I was happy to see that Alonso won as after the first few laps it was looking like Vettel would be faster and getting him soon. Vettel´s penalty was fully justified, even a rookie knows then if he overtakes by taking a shortcut he better should let the other one pass again. The adolescent whining and nagging of the Red Bull team and Vettel himself, now to be watched each and every race, is really not champion-like.

And then I was surprised by two inexplicable bad performances: Webber´s (this man won two races this year?) and Massa´s (I thought he had overcome his bad performances of the first races). Certainly good for the sport that the Red Bulls are far from first place in the championship at least for some races to come.

Whoever becomes champion in the end, and it looks a lot like Alonso this time, I do think that his win again clearly showed who´s the best driver. The last two years the best car won, this year it could be the best driver for a change, hopefully.


User currently offlinesudden From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 4130 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (2 years 2 months 20 hours ago) and read 3509 times:

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 12):
what the hell was he doing?).

He was overtaking a slower car. But as Vettel can not drive when having traffic around him, he had to complain about it.
Hamilton did not hold up Vettel or forced him to go off the racing line either when overtaking him, so Vettel did not lose anything, apart from his childish temper.



When in doubt, flat out!
User currently offlinestealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5697 posts, RR: 44
Reply 16, posted (2 years 2 months 19 hours ago) and read 3490 times:
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Damn, did I miss something interesting?

Came home from work a little out of sorts, dozed off and missed the first 10 or so laps, pretty sure I woke and watched the rest of the race before I went to bed... have no recollection of the finish.

Will have to watch the replay and see what went on!

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 12):
Alonso was superb

Ah, my Argentinian friend, haven't heard much from you lately.. Get the red cars back up front and you reappear... coincidence?? I don't think so

Good to see you back here..



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlinesudden From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 4130 posts, RR: 6
Reply 17, posted (2 years 2 months 19 hours ago) and read 3487 times:

Quoting stealthz (Reply 16):
Damn, did I miss something interesting?

In the closing stage of the race Vettel messed up pretty good. And Hamilton pulled a valid stunt on Vettel which Vettel found out of order.



When in doubt, flat out!
User currently offlinestealthz From Australia, joined Feb 2005, 5697 posts, RR: 44
Reply 18, posted (2 years 2 months 19 hours ago) and read 3482 times:
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Quoting sudden (Reply 17):
....

So I surmised from what I have seen online... looking forward to watching the complete race but after another long OT day I will be watching this during my Tue/Wed "weekend"



If your camera sends text messages, that could explain why your photos are rubbish!
User currently offlinescbriml From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2003, 12569 posts, RR: 46
Reply 19, posted (2 years 2 months 19 hours ago) and read 3482 times:
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Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 12):
LH (what the hell was he doing?).

Overtaking a slower car? I think it's called racing.   

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 12):
I was unaware of this specific rule, but honestly, I don't like it, at leat in today's race. Vettel's move seemed legit, pure racing if you ask me.

The rule was clarrified after the Hamilton/Rosberg incident earlier in the season. What Vettel did is not much different from overtaking by cutting a chicane. Same rule applies - he left the circuit and gained an advantage. As for his BS excuse - "I didn't know where he was, so I left him room." If he didn't know where Button was, he shouldn't be driving an F1 car.   



Time flies like an arrow, but fruit flies like a banana!
User currently offlineCXB77L From Australia, joined Feb 2009, 2614 posts, RR: 5
Reply 20, posted (2 years 2 months 18 hours ago) and read 3468 times:
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Quoting sudden (Reply 8):
I wish they could hand the crybaby a penalty as well for having a go at Hamilton as he overtook Vettel fair and square.

I think you wrote his name wrong.

Double World Champion Sebastian Vettel.

Yes, I agree Hamilton's move to unlap himself was all fair and above board. Yes, Vettel was gesticulating at Hamilton. So what? How is that worth a penalty? Under which rule could the penalty be imposed?

Quoting Aesma (Reply 9):

  

Quoting Larshjort (Reply 10):
Yes, a deserved penalty. According to Tom Christensen they discussed and agreed earlier this year that you are not allowed to overtake with all 4 wheels off the track
Quoting na (Reply 14):
Vettel´s penalty was fully justified, even a rookie knows then if he overtakes by taking a shortcut he better should let the other one pass again.
Quoting scbriml (Reply 19):
What Vettel did is not much different from overtaking by cutting a chicane. Same rule applies - he left the circuit and gained an advantage.

Yes, there is the rule which says you cannot gain an advantage while having all four wheels off the track, but I think that move was intended for drivers who overtake by cutting a chicane. Vettel didn't do that. He went around the outside - the long way around. That he gained an advantage was not because he had all four wheels off the track, but because Button's tyres had gone by that time. Or let me put it another way: the fact of his having all four wheels off the track is not the cause of his gaining an advantage.

I will grant, however, that by the strict letter of the law, Vettel had breached that provision, but the penalty was ludicrious, in my view. Nevertheless, not much to do now apart from to get on with it and make sure Alonso doesn't get too far ahead.

Quoting EZEIZA (Reply 12):
About Vettel's manouver ... I was unaware of this specific rule, but honestly, I don't like it, at leat in today's race. Vettel's move seemed legit, pure racing if you ask me.


I agree.

Quoting na (Reply 14):
The adolescent whining and nagging of the Red Bull team and Vettel himself, now to be watched each and every race, is really not champion-like.

What whining and nagging? Care to name an example? Care to name a driver who hasn't gesticulated at another driver from the cockpit?

Quoting na (Reply 14):
The last two years the best car won, this year it could be the best driver for a change, hopefully.

What a load of rubbish. Best car or not, it is not an easy task to win championships. Even in the best car, you still have to beat your teammate. In winning the title last year, Vettel dominated his teammate in the same car. He drove almost faultlessly the entire season, and showed great maturity well beyond his years. The year before that, Vettel had to fight for his championship, right down to the wire where he drove a faultless race to win the final round in Abu Dhabi, while Alonso and Webber both stuffed up. This is another example of Vettel keeping a cool head when the pressure's on.

Vettel is right up there with Alonso and Hamilton as the best drivers currently on the F1 grid. Hopefully, Vettel will come back from behind like he did two years ago, and win his third title in a row to become the youngest Formula 1 triple world champion.

Quoting sudden (Reply 15):
But as Vettel can not drive when having traffic around him, he had to complain about it.

  This line is getting really old. You forget that Vettel started his career in the midfield, first with BMW, then with Toro Rosso. Then there's the win he scored in the Toro Rosso. There has been several instances of Vettel coming up through the field after qualifying near the back of the grid to finish in the points. Vettel has proven himself time and time again to be one of the very best drivers in Formula 1. I don't know what temper you're referring to. If it's waving his fist at Hamilton, name one driver who has never so much as lifted his finger in anger while in the cockpit.

[Edited 2012-07-23 05:49:33]


Boeing 777 fanboy
User currently offlinesudden From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 4130 posts, RR: 6
Reply 21, posted (2 years 2 months 18 hours ago) and read 3459 times:

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 20):
I don't know what temper you're referring to

Well, Vettel is very fast as well when it comes to complain about other drivers and act like a child who lost his candy.



When in doubt, flat out!
User currently offlinemoo From Falkland Islands, joined May 2007, 3948 posts, RR: 4
Reply 22, posted (2 years 2 months 17 hours ago) and read 3452 times:

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 20):
Vettel didn't do that. He went around the outside - the long way around. That he gained an advantage was not because he had all four wheels off the track, but because Button's tyres had gone by that time. Or let me put it another way: the fact of his having all four wheels off the track is not the cause of his gaining an advantage.

Actually, in this case, yes it was due to him having all four wheels off the track - the drivers were warned on this exact point twice before the race, in particular about one corner but in general about the race track.

The reason being is that if you take a wider line through that corner, and go off the track to do so, its an easier corner and you lose less momentum doing so - in this case, Vettel passed a car while going outside the track boundaries, and suffered a penalty as a result.

If there was a curb on the outside at that corner, there wouldnt be any issue because that curb (or astroturf, or sand, or gravel etc) would have slowed the car down, but at this particular corner (and the other corner the Stewards were concerned about) its a continuation of tarmac, meaning there is no physical penalty to going over the line.


User currently offlinena From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 10736 posts, RR: 9
Reply 23, posted (2 years 2 months 17 hours ago) and read 3448 times:

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 20):
What whining and nagging? Care to name an example? Care to name a driver who hasn't gesticulated at another driver from the cockpit?

I am talking about the childish rubbish he often says after the races he wasnt competitive or lost otherwise, not about a gesture in the race. I did like Vettel, but I now see that he´s not grown-up enough to be a real champ. Same has to be said about his team btw.

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 20):
What a load of rubbish. Best car or not, it is not an easy task to win championships.

Are you denying the RB was the best car in 2010/11? Are you denying that its Alonso more than Ferrari who put himself wher he is now? Sure a top driver has to beat his teammate first but if he´s got the best car that almost the only thing to do. Alonso´s task this year was much more difficult so far, but could be easier in the second half of the season.


User currently offlinesudden From Sweden, joined Jul 2001, 4130 posts, RR: 6
Reply 24, posted (2 years 2 months 17 hours ago) and read 3436 times:

Quoting na (Reply 23):
I am talking about the childish rubbish he often says after the races he wasnt competitive or lost otherwise, not about a gesture in the race. I did like Vettel, but I now see that he´s not grown-up enough to be a real champ

Amen!

Quoting CXB77L (Reply 20):
In winning the title last year, Vettel dominated his teammate in the same car

Sure, he is blistering fast as long as he doesn't have to fight his way through the field. It's a known fact that if he has to do just that he has loads of excuses after the race blaming all kinds of drivers why he did not win the race.
And why do you think he dominated Webber? Because Vettel got all the goodies! This year the car is not dominating the grid, and an allround driver like Alonso is wiping the track with the youngster.



When in doubt, flat out!
25 CXB77L : Fair point, but the counter to that argument is that by going off track he had put himself in an area where there was less grip (he went over a paint
26 moo : But the effect of that is not guaranteed - lots of drivers have been off on that corner accidentically over the course of the race, so it might not b
27 EZEIZA : but in reality, this has nothing in common wit cutting a chicane. Actually, I see it as a disadvantage to go outside the track, having less grip and
28 moo : But the flip side is that it becomes a higher energy turn... more momentum on the exit, which means you are going to beat the tighter turning car in
29 flipdewaf : Which begs the question, why didn't he just stay inside the lines then? there would have been less disadvantage and he would not have been penalized.
30 EZEIZA : Feir enough, but I keep on wathcing the sequence and I really don't see Vettel getting an advantage from anything. I agree that had he let Button bac
31 sudden : True, but if you look at his driving from further back the grid it's simply not that dominant and great as if it is Alonso, Raikkonen, Hamilton to na
32 racko : Yeah, sure...except that if it weren't for the alternator breaking in Valencia and Karthikeyan crashing into him while being lapped, Vettel would be
33 ScarletHarlot : We own an AMG and are members of their owners' club, and this was offered to all club members. Absolutely amazing weekend. I met DC, Mika Hakkinen, a
34 zckls04 : That's irrelevant. The point of a racetrack is that you drive around the track- you don't go offroading. Vettel would not have been able to complete
35 sudden : Why is it then that always when he has to fight his way for positions, that he always complains after the race finding all kinds of reasons to why he
36 na : There was more, but just this out of my mind: Valencia: accusing the judges for his car´s breakdown due to an "unnecessary" safety car-phase. Hocken
37 Bill142 : I deny that. Personally I think he's shit. Yuji Ide is better than Vettel. And he was stripped of his super licence. No. The car is fast. You should
38 racko : Hamilton wasn't a direct competitor, he was a lap down. And that unlapping cost Vettel exactly the time that Button needed to undercut him during the
39 Post contains links and images CXB77L : All things being equal, yes, I suppose. And I agree that the net effect of going off track is not guaranteed, as you put it. But the grip offered by
40 sudden : Yes but considering the company I am in here, I am trying to keep it clean. Vettel is failing on lots of things, but just because he has 2 titles und
41 sudden : Yes, always! Not sure what broadcasting your watching, but on TV he sure let go and show his true colours. Get real. Again, not sure what channel you
42 Post contains links flipdewaf : He should have stayed behind then. Button was where he wanted to be then vettel has to respect that. Unless everyone should have to get a blue flag w
43 Post contains links Bill142 : Maybe he should drive go drive for Lotus. Raikkonen and Grojean have been more impressive in 10 races than Vettel has his entire career. Plenty of it
44 sudden : No thanks, I think Boullier is happy with his driver lineup as none of them are complaining at each other, or the rest of the grid.
45 Post contains links and images scbriml : So? There's nothing in the rules that says a lapped driver cannot unlap himself. And nor should there be. Hamilton was clearly quicker than Vettel at
46 moo : The inequality in the cars is part of the competition, so not worth even covering here. The inequality in the grip between on and off track is someth
47 flipdewaf : 71 times? very interesting, I noticed that some drivers seemed to be almost systematically going wide off some corners and I would image that this co
48 CXB77L : Vettel has won 22 races out of 91 that he competed in, so unless you can find me 69 examples of his "whinging", I call BS on that one. Calling the mo
49 EZEIZA : And Alonso used to be like that. But he has become better with time I agree, but although I don't like what LH did, it is within the rules. Team orde
50 stealthz : He put 4 wheels off the track to overtake someone, did he gain an advantage?? Not even relevant.. he broke the rules, he got penalised for that.. end
51 na : As for Vettels childish comments, maybe I´m in a better position being a German and having access to his interviews here. There were indeed more tha
52 Post contains images scbriml : IMHO, it amounts to the same thing. Nearly every report I've read had pretty much the same headline 'Vettel calls Hamilton "stupid"'. You seem to be
53 sudden : Actually it's not ok if you only manage post quotes that does not reflect reality. That sort of tells the story right there, that CXB77L does not hav
54 EZEIZA : I still think Alonso was worse in that sense when he was younger. Schumi, Lewis ... they were all at some point crybabys when things went wrong. Mayb
55 zckls04 : Generally not actually. The penalties are usually within a very narrow range for technical infringements, and the decision is never based on how much
56 CXB77L : Having seen a replay of the incident I should take back that statement. At the time Vettel steered his car off the track, Button was right beside him
57 sudden : One of the worst out there must be Massa. He and Hamilton throwing mud at each other was even amusing.
58 Bill142 : He should have backed off and tried again. Drivers were warned prior to this race about passing off the track and he chose to ignore that warning, wh
59 sudden : That's the one. It was indeed clearly stated that 4 wheels off the track will not be tolerated. This was mainly for turn 1 as well. Vettel opted to i
60 na : I wonder why RB complained the penalty was too much, unfair or what else, and a reprimand would be enough. What if they would have given a reprimand
61 Post contains images CXB77L : No, the one where he could've won the first three races but didn't for reasons beyond his control, but came back through some superb driving to win t
62 stealthz : It isn't 20/20 hindsight, He drove into a position where such action was the only option. If he could not see that coming he is an undeserving WDC an
63 sudden : As he knew he broke the rule he should have given the position back to Button, but opted to play faul!
64 Post contains links CXB77L : Yes, they were, but: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/101474 Why was Vettel punished when Hamilton wasn't? Where is the consistency in the
65 Bill142 : Not really, he could have backed out of the move earlier. Button was holding his line, which he's entitled to do. If Vettel wanted to avoid a collisi
66 sudden : Bad comparison! If you look at that one you will clearly see that Rosberg pushed Hamilton off the track. This was for sure not the case last weekend.
67 stealthz : You have brought this up several times. Because there was a clarification of the rules given to the teams at the British GP. Likely if Hamilton's "of
68 na : You simply dont get it: even the most stupid driver knows in such case he has to let the overtaken car pass again and try to overtake him later in a
69 sudden : I still don't think it's a fair comparison. Vettel had the option to back off as this was a low speed corner. The Hamilton vs Rosberg was in a high s
70 flipdewaf : Why didn't he use the brake pedal? Fred
71 sudden : LOL! Best question ever, and a valid one too.
72 Post contains links CXB77L : Could've, would've, should've. Yes, in hindsight, he could've, or should've done that. Quite frankly, I don't care if the whole world disagrees with
73 Post contains images scbriml : But he's not going to say anything else, is he? It was the only 'defence' he could offer. That it was weak and patently BS is clear for most to see.
74 na : Certainly not if you still hold up your position. The rules are the rules, and even a Vettel cant claim to ignore them. He should have backed up, sim
75 stealthz : It was the teams and drivers that asked for this clarification and the one on "blocking". Perhaps it is a question of "be careful what you wish for"
76 scbriml : I would certainly not disagree with you on this. However, there are a number of problems with this scenario, especially given the technological and c
77 EZEIZA : ok, but it is not clear that he gained an advantage I don't disagree with you. The penalty seems too harsh. First they have to prove that Vettel gain
78 sudden : But this can not be all that unclear buddy!? I mean, he went wide which means he gained an advantage by not having to take the corner that sharp, whi
79 stealthz : No, they don't have to prove anything. The rule is clear (always was but clarified again at the BGP) you must not leave the race track, there is no o
80 flipdewaf : No they don't, Charlie whiting, before the race: “[the stewards may]use their discretion in cases where it is not entirely clear whether or not a d
81 moo : The video you link to shows Hamilton still behind Rosberg when he renters the track at 0:05, and doesn't actually nose ahead of Rosberg until they en
82 Post contains links EZEIZA : I honestly don't see it that way my friend , not in this case. but Vettel's was not the only case during the race and that's where I believe they hav
83 moo : They do have valid grounds to support their decision - he was off the racing track. I've watched and rewatched the video you posted and I am convinced
84 flipdewaf : Maybe, depending on how you look at it. If your view is that the general direction of the car is the determining factor of position or the line perpe
85 EZEIZA : ok, but then everyone who went off the track during the race should have been punished. Because he got close to Button, risking a collision. At least
86 moo : But Vettels case is the only marginal one - the only one where it could be perceived as having an effect on the race. By his own words it wasn't an a
87 Post contains images scbriml : Not clear? When he was on the track he was behind and beside Button. In driving side by side with Button around the hairpin, he left himself in a pos
88 EZEIZA : and judging from your screen shot, wouldn't you say Button is sort of pushing him outside the track? so would the rest of the grid. Half of the drive
89 moo : In a hairpin turn, the driver is under no obligation to take the bend tighter than necessary to leave room for a passing driver, this isn't the same a
90 EZEIZA : IMO, it was a close call, too close for such a penalty, because you are right in what you are saying, but it seems like it's a matter of interpretati
91 moo : But there is no concept of reasonable doubt in any of this - this isn't a court of law, never forget that. Vettel broke the rules, the stewards applie
92 flipdewaf : Button was on the racing line so Vettel was not pushed off the track. Interpretation: Denied! Fred
93 scbriml : No, he's not pushing Vettel off the track, he's legitimately defending the racing line. As he's perfectly entitled to do. Seeing the gap he was aimin
94 Post contains images EZEIZA : well, if it is an advantage, every time it was done, the driver involved gained some time. That itself is an advantage, even if not so clear. That's
95 racko : You recall very incorrectly. He didn't even have his front wing on the level of Rosberg's rear wheels, he was 100% behind Rosberg and could have eith
96 moo : The stewards don't tend to issue penalties or instructions in the final couple of laps - there are too few laps left to react after the incident is r
97 Post contains images CXB77L : Read my posts above. The fact that Vettel has breached the strict letter of the law is not in dispute. However, that he should be penalised for it in
98 sudden : Really? So by writing what you are writing you actually think that Vettel was entitled to claim that position from Button? Lets not even go there cau
99 moo : I'm really curious as to what advantage you really think Hamilton gained by going off track - it was a straight, so no ground was cut, he didn't gain
100 na : Ok, so what would be your verdict then? A mere reprimand of cause out of question due to obvious reasons of making a repeat foul possible. That someo
101 flipdewaf : How so? Saying the next corner doesn't count. Fred
102 moo : I'm not anti-Vettel in any shape - hes one of the three drivers I follow. Currently, Hamilton isn't one of them, as hes wasting his time in F1 right
103 na : I didnt like him when he drove for Renault, and even less so when he drove for McLaren due to the bad show he put up then. I admit for me he was one
104 Bill142 : I'm going to book mark that quote so that when I steal your car, and break the law in doing so, I can use that in my defence. While I've broken the l
105 Post contains images CXB77L : As someone else mentioned regarding the Vettel-Button incident, if this happened in Monaco or Canada, Vettel would've had no choice but to lift off o
106 Post contains images racko : That's the price you pay for being very good. Schumacher had even worse things hurled at him for much of his career. Red Bull stated in post-race int
107 moo : But there we are seriously getting into the realms of what ifs - its hard to argue that Hamilton gained any sort of advantage over Rosberg by going o
108 flipdewaf : Button was within his rights with regards to the rules and vettel could either have put his foot on the brake or gone off the track and not over take
109 sudden : Vettel or not, the penalty was correct. To rule it as a race incident would open lots of doors! Aand I can assure you that this is not what any of us
110 Post contains images scbriml : But we've seen it often enough before. Typically it happens where one team bends the rule beyond the "spirit" or "intent" of that rule. In those situ
111 EZEIZA : Could not agree more. Alonso used to be a royal pain. Always a good driver, but I hated him. The last couple of seasons he put all his efforts in doi
112 zckls04 : I remember disliking Alonso a lot during the Hamilton feud and especially during the spy saga, but I've since started to like him a lot. He moans a l
113 Post contains images moo : Although according to some, theres a wider line that should be allowed
114 Post contains images EZEIZA : which proves how everything can be seen differently depending on who is watching
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