stasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3266 posts, RR: 6 Posted (10 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3897 times:
According to the German auto press, General Motors will sell the (just-released to dealerships in the USA) Cadillac XTS luxury sedan in Europe. But there's the twist in this news - the car will NOT be sold as a CADILLAC. In fact, Opel is rumored to sell the XTS as its own “flagship” vehicle, slotting in above the current Insignia models.
And Opel may call their new luxury sedan — get this — the Opel Omega. Please do not confuse this long-time Opel moniker with the upcoming Cadillac rear-wheel drive full-sized "flagship" sedan that will be underpinned by the new GM code-named "Omega" RWD platform.
The rebadged "Epsilon 2" platform Opel Omega will likely keep the current XTS' 3.6-liter V6 engine which produces 304 hp and 264 lb-ft of torque, with the possibility of the Omega additionally utilizing a turbocharged 2.8-liter V6 with 321 hp. A twin-turbo 2.0-liter diesel with 192 hp and a healthy 292 lbs of torque is also "in the cards" for the Opel version. This next-gen Omega would be built in Germany at the same (under-utilized) assembly plant that builds it's smaller (shorter wheelbase) platform sister, the Opel Insignia. Stylingwise, the Omega would look very similar to the XTS, with different Opel grille, badging, and some differences to suspension tuning - and the previous mentioned wider engine choices. It's probable that Opel may only offer the all-wheel drive version of the XTS, according to press reports. The American Cadillac XTS with all-wheel drive sells for approximately $53,000 USD.
Now the question has become, will Cadillac offer diesel-powered XTS here in North America to compete against diesel E and S class Mercedes sedan models? Cadillac is (of course) making no comments on the XTS becomes the new Opel Omega rumor, nor the possibility of a diesel powered North American XTS...... we shall see.
Kent350787 From Australia, joined May 2008, 888 posts, RR: 0 Reply 1, posted (10 months 2 days 16 hours ago) and read 3871 times:
Very interesting news - but surely such a move would kill any idea of Cadillac as a premium vehicle in Europe, after many less than successful attempts?
stasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3266 posts, RR: 6 Reply 2, posted (10 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3863 times:
Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 1): Very interesting news - but surely such a move would kill any idea of Cadillac as a premium vehicle in Europe
Not unless Cadillac has come to its collective senses and will only sell rear-wheel drive models in Europe, like the new ATS sports sedan and the existing CTS models. It seems to me that Cadillac will wait to market the new "flagship" RWD sedan in Europe, where it will compete with the BMW 7-series and Mercedes S-class - as well as the Jaguar XJ models, thus allowing Opel to market the "Omega" version of the XTS, since it is based on the home-grown Opel Insignia.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14342 posts, RR: 26 Reply 3, posted (10 months 2 days 15 hours ago) and read 3850 times:
Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter): And Opel may call their new luxury sedan — get this — the Opel Omega.
Serves them right for sending us the Catera. Payback's a bitch isn't it?
Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter): The American Cadillac XTS with all-wheel drive sells for approximately $53,000 USD.
Translate that to typical European prices and you're talking a pretty expensive underperforming car. Ugly too. I saw one the other day and it looks like a scrunched up Ford Fusion. I can't imagine why Europeans would like that more than an A6, E-Class, or 5 Series. I can't understand why Americans would either come to think of it.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
IH8BY From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1117 posts, RR: 3 Reply 5, posted (10 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3812 times:
Somewhat odd. Hasn't it become pretty much a given that you can't sell a premium-oriented large sedan under a traditional mass-market nameplate? However good the car is, people in the market for a car of that price most likely won't consider an Opel. I'm not saying that they shouldn't - people overlook a lot of great cars through badge snobbery - but the figures speak for themselves. BMW and Audi are even edging the mass-market manufacturers out on their own territory - for example, I believe the 3-series outsells the Ford Mondeo in the UK market - so a foray by Opel into the premium large sedan market is surely misguided at this point in time. Maybe in 10 years if their aspirations to move upmarket are realised.
However questionable Cadillac's reputation in Europe may be, it still has a brand cachet that Opel has yet to achieve.
Have you ever felt like you could float into the sky / like the laws of physics simply don't apply?
Dreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 7779 posts, RR: 22 Reply 7, posted (10 months 2 days 13 hours ago) and read 3798 times:
Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter):
According to the German auto press, General Motors will sell the (just-released to dealerships in the USA) Cadillac XTS luxury sedan in Europe. But there's the twist in this news - the car will NOT be sold as a CADILLAC. In fact, Opel is rumored to sell the XTS as its own “flagship” vehicle, slotting in above the current Insignia models.
Doesn't help anyone. The XTS is visually just about the must unattractive, unappealing car I can remember seeing. Seriously, can anyone here imagine spending more than $1,000 for this piece of crap?
na From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 9614 posts, RR: 10 Reply 8, posted (10 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3768 times:
Quoting AA7295 (Reply 4): I think it's silly!! Cadillac should only be Cadillac. Hasn't GM learnt their lesson on re-badging vehicles in different markets.
For goodness sake, streamline GM, streamline!!
Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 6):
First they destroy the brand Opel and than they try to sell such a car on the European market – what are they smoking?
No chance to sell as an Opel. No one needing a big sedan and having the money will look into an Opel showroom. This is like the big Chrysler with Lancia badge, only that the Lancia is more noble than an Opel can ever be.
No chance to sell as a Cadillac in Europe as well. Apart from maybe Switzerland and the Netherlands US cars (with the exception of Jeeps) have a very low reputation in Germany.
Plus this Cadillac isnt a beauty, again. If for once since myriads of years Cadillac would build a car that aesthetically and technically could rival the competition then I´d give it a small chance, but this grandpa car - no way.
JJJ From Spain, joined May 2006, 1618 posts, RR: 2 Reply 9, posted (10 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3761 times:
There we go again. No one buys a large sedan unless it has an expensive badge up front. They could just have called Renault and VW and saved the almost guaranteed sales embarassment.
I wonder why don't they call it the Senator, it was the bigger, more luxurious cousin to the Omega and sounds better for an supposedly luxury car.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14342 posts, RR: 26 Reply 10, posted (10 months 2 days 10 hours ago) and read 3761 times:
Quoting na (Reply 8): This is like the big Chrysler with Lancia badge, only that the Lancia is more noble than an Opel can ever be.
Don't get me started on Chrysler/Lancia trying to sell the 300 in Europe. The Pentastar V6 isn't exactly a dog, but they're trying to sell the big American car without the big American engine. Like the Cadillac, you should just head to the local BMW or Mercedes dealer and save the time.
Quoting na (Reply 8): If for once since myriads of years Cadillac would build a car that aesthetically and technically could rival the competition then I´d give it a small chance, but this grandpa car - no way.
In the US they've made great improvements, but they still aren't there. They started with the Escalade that started getting younger people into the fold, and the CTS is a good car for what it costs, (you could buy a CTS-V and have change left over for some work at Hennessey for what an M5 or E63 would cost) but Cadillac hasn't figured it out with the bigger cars yet. They've shown flashes like the Ciel concept, but then again there's also talk about the ELR, which would be an even more overpriced version of the already overpriced Chevy Volt/Opel Ampera.
Quoting na (Reply 8): US cars (with the exception of Jeeps) have a very low reputation in Germany.
Europeans seem to like Vipers and Corvettes well enough. And they should considering what it costs to get one over there. In the UK a Camaro has a list price over $20,000 greater than here for a similar model.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
na From Germany, joined Dec 1999, 9614 posts, RR: 10 Reply 11, posted (10 months 2 days 9 hours ago) and read 3744 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 10): Don't get me started on Chrysler/Lancia trying to sell the 300 in Europe. The Pentastar V6 isn't exactly a dog, but they're trying to sell the big American car without the big American engine. Like the Cadillac, you should just head to the local BMW or Mercedes dealer and save the time.
The Lancia Thema isnt a bad car, it just isnt a Lancia. It has no Italian feel whatsoever, even the opposite. Italian means elegant, lighthanded, and not too big. The Thema is the opposite, a huge, hulky barge crying America. It has a superb interior though which actually looks better than Mercedes E, BMW 5 and Audi A6. Problem is, hardly anyone with the money will ever notice as the outside doesnt signal that at all.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 10): In the UK a Camaro has a list price over $20,000 greater than here for a similar model.
I dont get it. While US cars are extremely more expensive in Europe, European cars are cheaper in the US. Are we stupid Europeans subsidizing the US or what?
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 10): Europeans seem to like Vipers and Corvettes well enough.
Corvette and Mustang are doing reasonably well here. The Viper though is much rarer than even a Ferrari.
kiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 5293 posts, RR: 3 Reply 13, posted (10 months 2 days 8 hours ago) and read 3727 times:
Quoting stasisLAX (Thread starter): And Opel may call their new luxury sedan — get this — the Opel Omega.
I don't see why the "get this" Opel has historically alsways called there large sedan Omega.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 10): The Pentastar V6 isn't exactly a dog, but they're trying to sell the big American car without the big American engine
Europeans rarely buy the big V8 versions from the Germans or Jaguar, they more often than not buy the 3.0 diesel, which is what Lancia are trying to sell. It doesn't make any sense at all for them to import the V8.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 10): (you could buy a CTS-V and have change left over for some work at Hennessey for what an M5 or E63 would cost
The bloke who buys a CTS-V and has it modified is not the same buyer who will stump up for a M5, E63 or XF-R.
Polot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 1499 posts, RR: 0 Reply 14, posted (10 months 2 days 6 hours ago) and read 3701 times:
First, before everyone gets upset, I would wait for something a little more official. Current reports may not necessarily be accurate.
Quoting na (Reply 11): I dont get it. While US cars are extremely more expensive in Europe, European cars are cheaper in the US. Are we stupid Europeans subsidizing the US or what?
Cars in general are more expensive in Europe. Blame it on taxes. And while having 10 engines for each car gives consumers a lot more choices than here in the US, it increases the build complexity further driving up the price of the car.
Quoting kiwirob (Reply 13): Europeans rarely buy the big V8 versions from the Germans or Jaguar, they more often than not buy the 3.0 diesel, which is what Lancia are trying to sell. It doesn't make any sense at all for them to import the V8.
Hence why most of the luxury Germany companies (don't know about Jaguar) have rather popular badge delete options and created things like the S line and M sport. Europeans can be vain too.
kiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 5293 posts, RR: 3 Reply 15, posted (10 months 2 days 4 hours ago) and read 3679 times:
Quoting Polot (Reply 14): it increases the build complexity further driving up the price of the car.
I don't think this is correct, for example the three series has multiple different engine option but in reality there are only 3, 4 cylinder petrol and diesel, 6 cylinder petrol and diesel and the M3 V8.
WildcatYXU From Canada, joined May 2006, 2435 posts, RR: 5 Reply 16, posted (10 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3648 times:
Quoting kiwirob (Reply 15): Quoting Polot (Reply 14):
it increases the build complexity further driving up the price of the car.
I don't think this is correct, for example the three series has multiple different engine option but in reality there are only 3, 4 cylinder petrol and diesel, 6 cylinder petrol and diesel and the M3 V8.
Way more complex than the usual North American offering: one, maximum two engine choices and a single transmission.
Back to the topic; I agree with everyone saying that introducing the XTS as Opel Omega in Europe is a bad idea. It brings a question: If they want to bring back old model names, why the Omega? Why not to import the Holden Commodore and sell it as Opel Commodore?
Polot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 1499 posts, RR: 0 Reply 17, posted (10 months 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 3641 times:
Quoting kiwirob (Reply 15): I don't think this is correct, for example the three series has multiple different engine option but in reality there are only 3, 4 cylinder petrol and diesel, 6 cylinder petrol and diesel and the M3 V8.
That is a lot of engines.
In Europe the 3 series has the 316d putting out 116 hp, the 318d putting out 143hp, the 320d putting out 184hp, the 320d Efficient Dynamics versions putting out 163hp, the 330d putting out 258hp.You also got the 320 putting out 184hp, the 328 putting out 245hp, the 335 putting out 305 hp plus the M3 (the new one not yet available though) and the 3 series hybrid (not sure if it is currently out, but it is coming later this year).
That is 10 engines.
In the US? You got the 328, the 335, the hybrid, and the M3.
That is 4 engines (although I wouldn't be surprised to see the 330d eventually make it's way over here).
Just looking at BMW's UK page is enough to give a person a headache with all the various engines and trim levels, and having all those different options makes the car more expensive to produce for the European market.
Might be 10 engines but the 316d, 318d, 320d, 320d Ed are all the same engine, just different states of tune, the 320i & 328 are the same basic engine, as are the 330 & 335, ditto for the 330d & 335d, they are all built on automated production lines, it's not that complex, it's all done by computers.
Just looking at BMW's UK page is enough to give a person a headache with all the various engines and trim levels, and having all those different options makes the car more expensive to produce for the European market.
It's not a problem, automated production, just in time parts delivery, the punter (me for example) chooses what they want at the dealer, this is then inputted into the production system and in 3 months out pops your car, this has nothing to do with why cars are more expensive in Europe that the US, that's due to taxes.
I've specified and purchased 6 cars in the past 6 years, all chosen with options I want, the idea of purchasing off the lot is not much fun, I want to choose exactly what my car is going to be like.
ozglobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2597 posts, RR: 4 Reply 19, posted (10 months 2 days 1 hour ago) and read 3621 times:
I think this has to be a US board decision against the wishes of Opel. Noone in Europe rates American cars (perhaps other than a few exotic roadsters); They might be functional enough in the US, but most Americans would take European or Japanese over their local product if they had the money. This looks desperate and should be just another indignity to Opel's once great heritage.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
No. In many EU countries there are no other taxes on cars beside VAT. Therefore is very easy to calculate the pre-tax price and that's usually way higher compared to the USA.
kiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 5293 posts, RR: 3 Reply 22, posted (10 months 2 days ago) and read 3599 times:
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 21): Not true. In the past they used to name their cars after naval ranks, with the smallest being the Kadett and the largest the Admiral.
So you're forgetting about the Omega produced from 86 until 03.
racko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4838 posts, RR: 21 Reply 23, posted (10 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3578 times:
Quoting Polot (Reply 14): First, before everyone gets upset, I would wait for something a little more official. Current reports may not necessarily be accurate.
Thank god. With GM, no matter how bizarre something sounds, you have to fear that it might be true. I wouldn't even put a 5,13m AWD Omega past them.
stasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3266 posts, RR: 6 Reply 24, posted (10 months 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3573 times:
Quoting ozglobal (Reply 19): This looks desperate and should be just another indignity to Opel's once great heritage.
I've read that the Insignia assembly plant is functioning at well-below optimal level, and GM/Opel is trying to fill the void in capacity with the Omega/XTS model in order to keep the sales of the Insignia profitable. One must remember that Opel cannot close German production plants due to the bailout funds it received from some German states and Opel's iron-clad labor contacts. Opel is in a desperately BAD financial condition, and, as the cliche goes, desperate times call for desperate measures. The worst indignity to Opel would be to be closed completely by General Motors, and the workers at the various plants would bare the worst indignity.... unemployment.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
mham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3001 posts, RR: 3 Reply 26, posted (10 months 1 day 18 hours ago) and read 3580 times:
Quoting ozglobal (Reply 19): They might be functional enough in the US, but most Americans would take European or Japanese over their local product if they had the money.
Oh crap, here we go again. That fine Euro arrogance. Fact is, there are several Euro manufacturers who have left this market in shame. Shamed by poor quality, poor design and poor service. Cars that were just plain ol' sh*t. There are very good reasons VW is behind the market curve here. There are good reasons Renault left in shame. Fiat as well.
What has done well here from Europe are Premuim Sport and Luxury cars. Of course they are good. And priced accordingly. And that's the problem with your statement "if they had the money". Fact is they either don't or prefer not to spend an entire years pay on a car. The Euros simply have not done well here with every-man's cars.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14342 posts, RR: 26 Reply 27, posted (10 months 1 day 16 hours ago) and read 3580 times:
Quoting kiwirob (Reply 13): Europeans rarely buy the big V8 versions from the Germans or Jaguar, they more often than not buy the 3.0 diesel, which is what Lancia are trying to sell. It doesn't make any sense at all for them to import the V8
It doesn't make much sense to sell the 300 there at all then. Considering European prices, why would anyone buy a Lancia/Chrysler when they could get a BMW, Mercedes, Audi, etc. for about the same cost? It makes sense here where a V8 powered 300C costs the same as a slightly optioned 3 Series, but against a 5 Series or E-Class it just falls short.
Quoting kiwirob (Reply 13): The bloke who buys a CTS-V and has it modified is not the same buyer who will stump up for a M5, E63 or XF-R.
Maybe the culture in Europe is different, but here lots of cars get tuned and not just Civics owned by teenagers. Sometimes it's as simple as aftermarket wheels and a new ECU chip, but there are plenty of BMWs boasting Dinan or AC Schnitzer parts, Porsches with Techart bits, Lorinser Mercedes, etc. I've seen a twin-turbocharged Gallardo with over 1000 hp driving around.
But yes, the E63 and M5 are better cars than the CTS-V, but not $30k better. And then there's the piped in engine noise on the M5...
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
If the Omega rumor is not true, then Opel's media relations department is being rather shady. When asked by the press about the Omega/XTS rumors, a spokesperson for Opel neither denied NOR confirmed the report.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
Dreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 7779 posts, RR: 22 Reply 29, posted (10 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3547 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 27): But yes, the E63 and M5 are better cars than the CTS-V, but not $30k better.
No question, Cadillac has made some pretty spectacular advances technologically. A friend has the CTS-V station wagon, and it's pretty good, driving-wise.
But the styling is enough to make a blind man puke. I can't imagine anyone spending that kind of money for a car designed so blah...
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14342 posts, RR: 26 Reply 30, posted (10 months 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 3546 times:
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 29): But the styling is enough to make a blind man puke. I can't imagine anyone spending that kind of money for a car designed so blah...
I've seen a guy driving around in one just like I'd get if I had $70,000 lying around: black coupe with black wheels. The thing looks like Darth Vader on wheels.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
JJJ From Spain, joined May 2006, 1618 posts, RR: 2 Reply 32, posted (10 months 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 3536 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 26): There are very good reasons VW is behind the market curve here. There are good reasons Renault left in shame. Fiat as well.
VW sold 26% more cars in 2011 than 2010 (that's the VW marque, not counting Audis who also had strong growth), and build a shiny new plant. I'm sure they're comfortable enough behind the market curve.
Fiat just successfully launched the 500, a car many thought would not be marketable in the US.
Renault doesn't need to return there, they own Nissan so they're smart enough not to get there again. The platform the Sentra is riding was designed by Renault for the 2nd gen Mégane, for instance.
The thing is European manufacturers have learnt the lessons of the 80s, out of the big 3, only Ford seems to have done the same.
ozglobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2597 posts, RR: 4 Reply 33, posted (10 months 1 day 9 hours ago) and read 3481 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 26): Quoting ozglobal (Reply 19):
They might be functional enough in the US, but most Americans would take European or Japanese over their local product if they had the money.
Oh crap, here we go again. That fine Euro arrogance. Fact is, there are several Euro manufacturers who have left this market in shame. Shamed by poor quality, poor design and poor service. Cars that were just plain ol' sh*t. There are very good reasons VW is behind the market curve here. There are good reasons Renault left in shame. Fiat as well.
What has done well here from Europe are Premuim Sport and Luxury cars. Of course they are good. And priced accordingly. And that's the problem with your statement "if they had the money". Fact is they either don't or prefer not to spend an entire years pay on a car. The Euros simply have not done well here with every-man's cars.
mham001, please remember the thread title: selling Cadillacs in Europe via Opel is the topic at hand. Not Smarts or small Fiats. On this topic there is no "problem" with my statement; there is a problem with your reading of it and your reaction. In the sector this thread is focusing on, my statements, as you confirm, are fully accurate.
So, agreeing that it is true that Americans would buy BMWs, Mercs and Audi's or other Europoean brands rather than similarly priced Cadis on the whole and that Europeans would prefer a European mark as well, proves my point.
So you see it is all observable fact. As for "fine Euro" arrogance, we do our best, but will never be in the same league of "exceptionalism".
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
racko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4838 posts, RR: 21 Reply 34, posted (10 months 1 day 8 hours ago) and read 3463 times:
Quoting stasisLAX (Reply 28): then Opel's media relations department is being rather shady. When asked by the press about the Omega/XTS rumors, a spokesperson for Opel neither denied NOR confirmed the report.
He said "No comment". Which is the standard response to pretty much all but the most outrageous rumors, because denying all false rumors leaves you with only 2 options when you are confronted with a true, but still secret rumor: Lie straight into the face of the people you are working with and are supposed to have a great relationship with, or essentially confirming it by not commenting.
mham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3001 posts, RR: 3 Reply 35, posted (10 months 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 3416 times:
Quoting JJJ (Reply 32): VW sold 26% more cars in 2011 than 2010 (that's the VW marque, not counting Audis who also had strong growth), and build a shiny new plant. I'm sure they're comfortable enough behind the market curve.
Actually, no they are not. The entire VW group has less than 5% market share here. Interestingly, there is only 1 European car in the top 30 here, the VW Jetta at #21 this year (-9.3%) . They are still fighting quality problems, perceived and real, in their VW and Audi lines. Their big bright spot is Porsche but that is not exactly the high volume part of the market. VW itself has admitted it needs to improve its game here if it wants to fulfill its desire for world dominance.
Quoting JJJ (Reply 32): Fiat just successfully launched the 500, a car many thought would not be marketable in the US.
Yes, they have. A niche car which would not have made it here without the Chrysler merge.
Quoting JJJ (Reply 32): Renault doesn't need to return there, they own Nissan so they're smart enough not to get there again. The platform the Sentra is riding was designed by Renault for the 2nd gen Mégane, for instance.
Nissan has also been on the ropes. Their strategy to get out of it seems to be to expand as quickly as possible. The overall surge in sales is masking their problems so we shall see. It does not negate the FACT that Renault was chased out of here for selling poor quality cars.
Quoting JJJ (Reply 32): The thing is European manufacturers have learnt the lessons of the 80s, out of the big 3, only Ford seems to have done the same.
How many US built cars have you driven in the last 5 years? And what you are saying is that Fiat has merged with another crap manufacturer (which I tend to agree).
Quoting ozglobal (Reply 33): So, agreeing that it is true that Americans would buy BMWs, Mercs and Audi's or other Europoean brands rather than similarly priced Cadis on the whole and that Europeans would prefer a European mark as well, proves my point.
Why are you holding up one sub brand against 3 world players? Cadillac has not had half the R&D into it as any of those manufacturers. Even with that, Cadillac does hold its own in this market...
ozglobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2597 posts, RR: 4 Reply 37, posted (10 months 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 3391 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 35): Why are you holding up one sub brand against 3 world players? Cadillac has not had half the R&D into it as any of those manufacturers. Even with that, Cadillac does hold its own in this market...
We get it, you don't like hearing criticism of US brands. The discussion, however, is about selling US brands in the European, car market. My argument continues to be, that they are not rated in the market. I don't think there is any value proposition to sell. That Cadis do ok in their local US market, is not in question, just whether Europeans will want them or not in face of the options...
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
Yes they are. Brabus does some pretty insane stuff too. It's nice that having a tuner car no longer means poor reliability and driveability. Some places will even give you a warranty.
Maybe it's just a manifestation of the hotrodding culture and all of the various car movements America has had over the last 65 years or so, but I noticed relatively few tuned cars on my trips to Europe. But as I alluded to before, there's a lot that can be done under the skin.
Quoting ozglobal (Reply 33): So, agreeing that it is true that Americans would buy BMWs, Mercs and Audi's or other Europoean brands rather than similarly priced Cadis on the whole and that Europeans would prefer a European mark as well, proves my point.
The primary people who will buy the XTS, and the DTS and DeVille before that (this is like the second or third "interim model") are people who grew up when Cadillac really was the standard of the world.
And for what it's worth, in all of my ongoing car shopping, the only American car I've looked at is Australian.
Quoting kiwirob (Reply 36): That's there only market, they failed every time they have tried selling outside of North America, Cadillacs just aren't good enough.
That's the long and the short of it. The XTS just sucks. The Escalade is too big for European tastes (how do the Mercedes GL and Audi Q7 do over there? That's about the closest Europeans make) The CTS could be a legitimate competitor for the 5 Series, E-Class, et. al. if Cadillac could maintain the price difference. But they almost certainly couldn't, leaving them in the same position as the Chrysler 300.
The ATS is too early to call, but I suspect that while it may be tempting to some buyers, I suspect it will fall well short of the European brands. I highly doubt that anyone at BMW is losing sleep because of the ATS.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
kiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 5293 posts, RR: 3 Reply 40, posted (10 months 22 hours ago) and read 3334 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 39): The CTS could be a legitimate competitor for the 5 Series, E-Class, et. al. if Cadillac could maintain the price difference. But they almost certainly couldn't, leaving them in the same position as the Chrysler 300.
Without diesels they need not bother.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 39): Brabus does some pretty insane stuff too. It's nice that having a tuner car no longer means poor reliability and driveability.
Brabus like (Ruf and Alpina) aren't tuners, they are manufacturers.
ozglobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2597 posts, RR: 4 Reply 41, posted (10 months 21 hours ago) and read 3323 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 39): The primary people who will buy the XTS, and the DTS and DeVille before that (this is like the second or third "interim model") are people who grew up when Cadillac really was the standard of the world.
When, on earth, was Cadillac "the standard of the WORLD"? That would have either been Rolls Royce, Daimler, Bently, Mercedes, Jaguar, BMW, Maybach, Lancia, or simiilar, no?
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
Polot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 1499 posts, RR: 0 Reply 42, posted (10 months 19 hours ago) and read 3305 times:
Quoting ozglobal (Reply 41): When, on earth, was Cadillac "the standard of the WORLD"? That would have either been Rolls Royce, Daimler, Bently, Mercedes, Jaguar, BMW, Maybach, Lancia, or simiilar, no?
Cadillac was often regarded as the standard of the world up to the 60s. That doesn't necessarily mean they were the best, but they were often considered one of the top luxury brands. Rolls Royce and Bentley were too small, Maybach's history might as well be non-existent, they were never a successful brand by any means. Mercedes were hobbled because they were German, BMW weren't really that luxurious until the past couple of decades, Jaguar was also too small with a spotty history. I don't think Lancia has ever been considered the standard of anything outside of Italy except in the rally world.
Meanwhile Cadillac was known for innovation, especially in its engines, and of course its styling trends (i.e. tail fins).
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14342 posts, RR: 26 Reply 43, posted (10 months 16 hours ago) and read 3282 times:
Quoting kiwirob (Reply 40): Without diesels they need not bother.
They would definitely need to do that and I doubt the investment would be worth it anyway. Even offering a four cylinder gasoline engine would probably be a good idea if they ever wanted to sell the CTS in Europe, although I doubt they do.
Quoting kiwirob (Reply 40): Brabus like (Ruf and Alpina) aren't tuners, they are manufacturers.
I think that you can buy parts individually as well in the case of Ruf and Brabus. I'm not sure what the jargon is in Europe, but even though they are technically their own models, most Ruf and Brabus manufactured cars would still be considered tuner cars here.
Hennessey has started building their own model as well. The Venom GT starts with Lotus Exige components and adds a twin turbo V8 to end up as a 2700 lb. car with 1200 horsepower.
Quoting ozglobal (Reply 41): When, on earth, was Cadillac "the standard of the WORLD"?
1950s into the early 1960s. In those days Cadillac did deserve their reputation and some of their models would set you back as much as a Rolls Royce would.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
kiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 5293 posts, RR: 3 Reply 44, posted (10 months 13 hours ago) and read 3257 times:
Quoting ozglobal (Reply 41): When, on earth, was Cadillac "the standard of the WORLD"?
Pre World War 2 Cadillac along with Lincoln, Pierce Arrow, Auburn, Cord, Dusenberg, Packard built some of the finest automobiles that have ever graced our roads, after the war it all went down hill for the US luxury brands.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 43): They would definitely need to do that and I doubt the investment would be worth it anyway. Even offering a four cylinder gasoline engine would probably be a good idea if they ever wanted to sell the CTS in Europe, although I doubt they do.
It should be fairly easy for them to modify Opels 4 cylinder diesels for a RWD instillation, what GM don't have is a suitable 3.0 6 cylinder diesel.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 43): I think that you can buy parts individually as well in the case of Ruf and Brabus.
Ruf will sell you alloy wheels, they won't sell you engine modifications without buying the entire car. Ruf buys the bare body in white form Porsche, then adds the magic bits which make a Ruf so much better than a Porsche. Little known fact when Porsche were thinking about dropping the 911 Ruf had a deal to buy the production line and rights to the design.
ozglobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2597 posts, RR: 4 Reply 45, posted (10 months 12 hours ago) and read 3251 times:
Quoting Polot (Reply 42): Cadillac was often regarded as the standard of the world up to the 60s.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 43): 1950s into the early 1960s. In those days Cadillac did deserve their reputation and some of their models would set you back as much as a Rolls Royce would.
Umh, I get that they once made top quality cars , between WWI and WWII and were recognized for it. But USA doss not equal 'the world'. I'm not sure Cadillac has never been 'the standard of the world', even if it was the standard in the US.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
JJJ From Spain, joined May 2006, 1618 posts, RR: 2 Reply 46, posted (10 months 12 hours ago) and read 3247 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 35): Actually, no they are not. The entire VW group has less than 5% market share here. Interestingly, there is only 1 European car in the top 30 here, the VW Jetta at #21 this year (-9.3%) . They are still fighting quality problems, perceived and real, in their VW and Audi lines. Their big bright spot is Porsche but that is not exactly the high volume part of the market. VW itself has admitted it needs to improve its game here if it wants to fulfill its desire for world dominance.
Do you really think VW worries about market share? This is what they care for:
"German giant Volkswagen AG posted a first-quarter profit of $4.2 billion, up 87% from a year ago, driven heavily by stronger U.S. sales, up 34%, for its VW and Audi brands."
How of earth do you get a 26% sales growth if you're fighting quality problems? It's obvious that not only they're in great shape, they're also getting better.
Quoting mham001 (Reply 35): It does not negate the FACT that Renault was chased out of here for selling poor quality cars.
So? We're talking about today, and today Renault has a firm foot planted on the US market in Nissan.
Quoting mham001 (Reply 35): How many US built cars have you driven in the last 5 years? And what you are saying is that Fiat has merged with another crap manufacturer (which I tend to agree).
I've been spending an average 6 weeks a year in the US for the last 7 years, thanks. I've driven the whole lot probably the whole Ford lineup (thanks Hertz) lots of japanese, a few Buicks, Chryslers, Jeeps, Caddys and Chevys as well, including probably the worst car ever: a 2007 or 08 Impala SS. Several thousand miles, in over 20 states, city, rural and interstate driving.
Polot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 1499 posts, RR: 0 Reply 48, posted (10 months 7 hours ago) and read 3179 times:
Quoting ozglobal (Reply 45): Umh, I get that they once made top quality cars , between WWI and WWII and were recognized for it. But USA doss not equal 'the world'. I'm not sure Cadillac has never been 'the standard of the world', even if it was the standard in the US.
Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 47): What a pity, that nobody outside the US knew that.
It is just a saying that people said, it is not like someone objectively decided that it was true, just like BMW's "Ultimate Driving Machine." And in the first half of the 20th century there really wasn't all that much competition from the rest of the world...
You guys are nitpicking over the littlest details because you can't accept that Cadillac was once considered one of the best cars in the world.
kiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 5293 posts, RR: 3 Reply 49, posted (10 months 6 hours ago) and read 3170 times:
Quoting Polot (Reply 48): And in the first half of the 20th century there really wasn't all that much competition from the rest of the world...
You're forgetting where the car was invented, I'll give you a hint, it wasn't in the US. American cars weren't better in the first half of the 20th century either. US cars have pretty much soild best in North America yet failed outside North America, that's pretty much the history of US automakers in a nutshell.
Polot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 1499 posts, RR: 0 Reply 50, posted (10 months 6 hours ago) and read 3158 times:
Quoting kiwirob (Reply 49): You're forgetting where the car was invented, I'll give you a hint, it wasn't in the US. American cars weren't better in the first half of the 20th century either. US cars have pretty much soild best in North America yet failed outside North America, that's pretty much the history of US automakers in a nutshell.
Yes, I am aware that the first modern car was made in Europe. It is hard (and ridiculous) to argue that one company was better on a global scale than others in the first half of the 20th century though. North American cars failed outside of North America, and European cars failed outside of Europe other than where they had colonies. That has more to do with the lack of large scale globalization and far greater market restrictions than whether a car was superior or not though.
ozglobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2597 posts, RR: 4 Reply 51, posted (10 months 6 hours ago) and read 3158 times:
Quoting Polot (Reply 48): Quoting ozglobal (Reply 45):
Umh, I get that they once made top quality cars , between WWI and WWII and were recognized for it. But USA doss not equal 'the world'. I'm not sure Cadillac has never been 'the standard of the world', even if it was the standard in the US.
Quoting oldeuropean (Reply 47):
What a pity, that nobody outside the US knew that.
It is just a saying that people said, it is not like someone objectively decided that it was true, just like BMW's "Ultimate Driving Machine." And in the first half of the 20th century there really wasn't all that much competition from the rest of the world...
You guys are nitpicking over the littlest details because you can't accept that Cadillac was once considered one of the best cars in the world.
No,I think that you are just having trouble seeing that terms like 'best in the World' that roll off the tounge so freely in the US don't make sense in international conversation. Don't be surprised to be called on it.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
Polot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 1499 posts, RR: 0 Reply 52, posted (10 months 5 hours ago) and read 3160 times:
Quoting ozglobal (Reply 51): No,I think that you are just having trouble seeing that terms like 'best in the World' that roll off the tounge so freely in the US don't make sense in international conversation. Don't be surprised to be called on it.
Its marketing. US companies do it, European companies do it (Ryanair "World's Favourite" Airline anyone?). It is possible to not take everything so literal and accept the meaning behind the phrase.
kiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 5293 posts, RR: 3 Reply 53, posted (10 months 5 hours ago) and read 3156 times:
Quoting Polot (Reply 50): North American cars failed outside of North America, and European cars failed outside of Europe other than where they had colonies.
European cars didn't fail outside of Europe in the first half of the 20th century, where do you think most of the worlds cars came from outside of North America, hint it wasn't the US.
mham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3001 posts, RR: 3 Reply 54, posted (10 months 4 hours ago) and read 3147 times:
Quoting ozglobal (Reply 37): That Cadis do ok in their local US market, is not in question, just whether Europeans will want them or not in face of the options...
Yes it was the question. You stated 'those poor rednecks would all buy European cars if only they could afford them'. I really don't want to turn this into a US market thread, it is not, and I am not the biggest GM fan, but some of the tripe in this thread needs response. I am also not trying to say Cadillac can do well in Europe, I really don't know, but to dismiss it would be foolish. We have seen several turn-arounds from poor quality in less than a decade, Hyundai is one, VW is currently trying.
Quoting JJJ (Reply 46): Do you really think VW worries about market share? This is what they care for:
You are seriously out of touch. That is VW's stated goal, to be the #1 car maker in the world before 2020. They repeat it often. How do they do that? Market share.
Quoting JJJ (Reply 46): How of earth do you get a 26% sales growth if you're fighting quality problems? It's obvious that not only they're in great shape, they're also getting better.
Quoting JJJ (Reply 46): I've been spending an average 6 weeks a year in the US for the last 7 years, thanks. I've driven the whole lot probably the whole Ford lineup (thanks Hertz) lots of japanese, a few Buicks, Chryslers, Jeeps, Caddys and Chevys as well, including probably the worst car ever: a 2007 or 08 Impala SS. Several thousand miles, in over 20 states, city, rural and interstate driving.
Given all that, it surprising how you believed we all drive 2 hours to work.
Flighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 7446 posts, RR: 2 Reply 55, posted (10 months 3 hours ago) and read 3136 times:
Quoting kiwirob (Reply 49): You're forgetting where the car was invented, I'll give you a hint, it wasn't in the US. American cars weren't better in the first half of the 20th century either. US cars have pretty much soild best in North America yet failed outside North America, that's pretty much the history of US automakers in a nutshell.
We respect foreign cars very well in the US. Arguably US cars are under-rated now, globally, including in the US.
Since the US is a declining percentage of the world economy, our automakers can no longer focus purely at home. Try to have sympathy for the situation. They have equal talent with Mercedes-Benz or Volkswagen, they are just stumbling on marketing.
Opel and Vauxhall and Holden should all be eliminated. It is a global market now. Chevy, Buick and Cadillac are GM now. They have full heritage and can appeal to global markets on their own.
ozglobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2597 posts, RR: 4 Reply 56, posted (10 months 3 hours ago) and read 3132 times:
Quoting Flighty (Reply 55): Since the US is a declining percentage of the world economy, our automakers can no longer focus purely at home.
They haven't been focused only at home for over half a century.
Quoting Flighty (Reply 55): They have equal talent with Mercedes-Benz or Volkswagen, they are just stumbling on marketing.
We're speaking about product, not just talent. The products are not equivalent by the market and most poster's reckonging on this forum.
Quoting Flighty (Reply 55): Try to have sympathy for the situation.
You mean 'have sympathy for some home grown automotive traditions'? Like saying,
Quoting Flighty (Reply 55): Opel and Vauxhall and Holden should all be eliminated.
?
Quoting Flighty (Reply 55): It is a global market now. Chevy, Buick and Cadillac are GM now. They have full heritage and can appeal to global markets on their own.
An austounding series of statements: if I understand:
- It's a global market and US manufactures need to succeed abroad in order to survive. OK . But
- There are local brands in the US like "Chevy, Buick and Cadillac" with "full heritage"...
- There are local brands in the UK, Germany and Australia with "full heritage"...
- But it's a "global market now"
- Therefore we should "have some sympathy" for the US brand heritage and
- "Opel and Vauxhall and Holden should all be eliminated" along with their venerable local heritage
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
Quoting ozglobal (Reply 56): - "Opel and Vauxhall and Holden should all be eliminated" along with their venerable local heritage
Holden lost all credibility. Their management should be fired, as well as their US handlers. What is Holden now best known for? Thievery and incompetence.
IH8BY From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2005, 1117 posts, RR: 3 Reply 58, posted (10 months 2 hours ago) and read 3110 times:
Quoting Flighty (Reply 55):
Opel and Vauxhall and Holden should all be eliminated. It is a global market now. Chevy, Buick and Cadillac are GM now. They have full heritage and can appeal to global markets on their own.
Why? Chevrolet and Cadillac have little brand value in Europe, and Buick is practically unknown. Relatively weak as their brand image is, Opel and Vauxhall at least retain some emotional identity with European consumers - the US brands don't even have that. Ford works because the Ford name has been built up in Europe over many years; now is surely not the time to GM to be starting such an adventure! Chevrolet's growth in Europe has been due to its value offering, but that's not likely to be sustainable if the brand is stretched to vehicles manufactured in Europe.
The fact that Opel/Vauxhall aren't BMW/Audi/Mercedes or even VW is a challenge that the US brands will face too.
That's before you even look at the practicalities. The products that the markets demand are - with the possible exception of Cadillac's market - still not the same on either side of the Atlantic. It's not even as though the US product could be seamlessly cascaded on to the European market.
It's not impossible, but surely exceptionally costly and risky for a move that doesn't guarantee any progress.
Have you ever felt like you could float into the sky / like the laws of physics simply don't apply?
Opel and Vauxhall and Holden should all be eliminated. It is a global market now. Chevy, Buick and Cadillac are GM now. They have full heritage and can appeal to global markets on their own.
Why? Chevrolet and Cadillac have little brand value in Europe, and Buick is practically unknown. Relatively weak as their brand image is, Opel and Vauxhall at least retain some emotional identity with European consumers - the US brands don't even have that.
Right, and the fact that Flighty is suggesting is a perfect demonstration of the same misguided thinking that is pressing GM to propose it (if they indeed are).
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
racko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4838 posts, RR: 21 Reply 60, posted (10 months 1 hour ago) and read 3101 times:
Quoting IH8BY (Reply 58): Ford works because the Ford name has been built up in Europe over many years
Ford is seen as German in Germany. If you ask your average Joe on the streets here: "Where's Ford from?" the answer will most likely be "Cologne". Makes sense, too, considering that Fiesta, Focus and Mondeo are all developed there.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14342 posts, RR: 26 Reply 61, posted (10 months 1 hour ago) and read 3094 times:
Quoting kiwirob (Reply 44): It should be fairly easy for them to modify Opels 4 cylinder diesels for a RWD instillation, what GM don't have is a suitable 3.0 6 cylinder diesel.
Cadillac's record of dropping diesels in their cars isn't the greatest.
Quoting kiwirob (Reply 44): Ruf will sell you alloy wheels, they won't sell you engine modifications without buying the entire car.
What a pity, that nobody outside the US knew that.
First of all, you couldn't get foreign cars as easily. You didn't have Mercedes and BMW dealerships in every city. A lot of the rise of European car manufacturers can be credited to Max Hoffman.
Secondly, in the 1950s, standard of the world in cars largely was standard of America. Europe was split in half and still recovering from WWII, the rise of Asia was still in the future, and there were not yet many wealthy Middle Easterners who were buying fleets of exotic cars. Meanwhile, Americans were buying and driving cars like there was no tomorrow.
Quoting kiwirob (Reply 49): US cars have pretty much soild best in North America yet failed outside North America, that's pretty much the history of US automakers in a nutshell.
A big part of the success of European automakers stems from the fact that in the middle of the 20th century, America was loving cars and presented a huge market. Importers, particularly Hoffman, were feeding manufacturers ideas and specifications with Americans in mind. The foreign divisions of American manufacturers like Ford Europe and Opel operated with more autonomy producing models just for Europe, which is a contrast to European makers where their American offerings are generally a subset of their full lineup rather than a different lineup. I can't recall off the top of my head BMW, Mercedes, and the like producing models exclusively for the American market.
It only made sense for Detroit to worry about America and let their European divisions do basically whatever since the American market was so large and different. The result is what you have today, for better or worse. Changing taste and some oil crises have pushed the markets together somewhat, so now large scale sharing of models (with changes) and platforms is possible, but I would argue that European and Asian manufacturers are better suited to do so.
Quoting Flighty (Reply 55): They have full heritage and can appeal to global markets on their own.
Not outside of North America. Chinese like Buicks but that's about it.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
Flighty From United States of America, joined Apr 2007, 7446 posts, RR: 2 Reply 62, posted (9 months 4 weeks 1 day 23 hours ago) and read 3081 times:
Quoting OzGlobal (Reply 59): Right, and the fact that Flighty is suggesting is a perfect demonstration of the same misguided thinking that is pressing GM to propose it (if they indeed are).
GM's European unit loses money and should be entirely shut down. It lacks sustainable business prospects. Detroit knows this and is only considering how to close Opel.
The remaining question is, should GM sell its main lines globally or not. I believe they will, as Toyota and Ford do. (The "One Ford" strategy is influential here.)
If Chevrolet and Buick are not known globally, that reflects a big opportunity. Their current model lineups are excellent and advancing quickly, and GM has plans to distribute them globally. In the future, the majority of the auto industry will be non-US and non-Europe. It is that majority of future buyers that GM is now going after.
stasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3266 posts, RR: 6 Reply 63, posted (9 months 4 weeks 1 day 17 hours ago) and read 3038 times:
Quoting Flighty (Reply 62): The remaining question is, should GM sell its main lines globally or not. I believe they will, as Toyota and Ford do.
General Motors has already embraced this, at least as far as their Buick division is concerned. Buick USA senior management has stated numerous times over the past few years that the model line Buick offers in Asia/China will be the same as the model line Buick offers in the USA. Thus, the new Verano and Encore models are offered in America, although Buick knows that these more "entry level" Buick models are truly aimed at the Chinese market - but they could find enough buyers in North America to make a profit - especially the very nicely-appointed Verano sedan.
In addition, with the (well-deserved) death of Daewoo Motors as a GM marketing entity, Chevrolet has take over as the entry level brand in Asia.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
mham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3001 posts, RR: 3 Reply 64, posted (9 months 4 weeks 1 day 4 hours ago) and read 2989 times:
Quoting JJJ (Reply 46): So? We're talking about today, and today Renault has a firm foot planted on the US market in Nissan.
Good point. I am fully willing to look at it with an open mind and accept that things can change. Why can't you with Cadillac?
Should mention too that the Nissan Versa, a fruit of that Renault alliance, is widely thought to be the worst car sold in the US. Is this the European quality to which we can look forward?
I've been looking at the US customer complaints and the only European manufacturer that matches Cadillac owners satisfaction is Mercedes, each with above average ratings (Lexus sets the standard). BMW is only average and VW is below average after 3 years of ownership. I understand this is in a different market, but why would these issues be so different there?
I don't much care for Cadillacs design style and have little interest in them, but this kneejerking about the possibility of GM introducing a car that may be superior to much of what is currently being sold is interesting.
kiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 5293 posts, RR: 3 Reply 65, posted (9 months 4 weeks 1 day 2 hours ago) and read 2973 times:
Quoting Flighty (Reply 55): They have equal talent with Mercedes-Benz or Volkswagen, they are just stumbling on marketing.
No they don't, there's not a single product made by US manufacturers that matches the product made by Mercedes and VW, especially at the top end of there respective ranges.
Quoting mham001 (Reply 57): Holden lost all credibility. Their management should be fired, as well as their US handlers. What is Holden now best known for? Thievery and incompetence.
The amount of coverage this got in the local media was pretty slight, the average Aussie or Kiwi probably couldn't care less that parts were stolen by Holden employees.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 61): Cadillac's record of dropping diesels in their cars isn't the greatest.
I doubt any in Europe would know about those nasty v8 conversions done way back when, simple fact is without diesels Cadillac can forget about selling much product in Europe. I'm pretty sure that if Opel do badge engineer the XTS as an Omega fitting diesels into it will be there number 1 priority.
ozglobal From France, joined Nov 2004, 2597 posts, RR: 4 Reply 66, posted (9 months 4 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 2915 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 64): I've been looking at the US customer complaints and the only European manufacturer that matches Cadillac owners satisfaction is Mercedes, each with above average ratings (Lexus sets the standard). BMW is only average and VW is below average after 3 years of ownership. I understand this is in a different market, but why would these issues be so different there?
Americans don't drive BMWs or VWs made in the same factories as Europeans. e.g US BMWs are made largely in Mex, I believe. Europeans drive German built ones and that is their reference. We don't libe in the same automotive cosmos.
When all's said and done, there'll be more said than done.
Polot From United States of America, joined Jul 2011, 1499 posts, RR: 0 Reply 67, posted (9 months 4 weeks 20 hours ago) and read 2904 times:
Quoting ozglobal (Reply 66):
Americans don't drive BMWs or VWs made in the same factories as Europeans. e.g US BMWs are made largely in Mex, I believe. Europeans drive German built ones and that is their reference. We don't libe in the same automotive cosmos.
I don't believe BMW imports Mexican made cars into the US. All their cars here are made in Germany, South Africa (some 3 series models) or here in the US for the SUVs (which also supplies most of the SUVs to Europe as well).
VW is really the German company that embraced Mexican production for the US market the most.
JJJ From Spain, joined May 2006, 1618 posts, RR: 2 Reply 71, posted (9 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 2704 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 54): Given all that, it surprising how you believed we all drive 2 hours to work.
I never said that, and it's not the first time you're misquoting me. I just said Americans have long commutes which, compared to ours, is a simple fact: 14 miles or so vs 10 kms, which is over double.
The manager at our Los Angeles office drove all the way from his house on the mountains to the office close to LAX, something like 70 miles one-way.
Quoting mham001 (Reply 64): Should mention too that the Nissan Versa, a fruit of that Renault alliance, is widely thought to be the worst car sold in the US. Is this the European quality to which we can look forward?
Well, you're talking about a car that Nissan developed for emerging markets and is not sold in Europe. Of course it's a turd, but a cheap turd nevertheless.
The first and only time I drove the Versa (called Tiida in the UAE and most other markets) was in Dubai it didn't even have power windows. Of course it drove like it costed and creaked at every joint (which thankfully were just a few, because the interior seemed to be a giant single piece of cheap injected plastic).
Quoting mham001 (Reply 64): I've been looking at the US customer complaints and the only European manufacturer that matches Cadillac owners satisfaction is Mercedes, each with above average ratings (Lexus sets the standard). BMW is only average and VW is below average after 3 years of ownership. I understand this is in a different market, but why would these issues be so different there?
You have to look at how those studies are made. A couple of years ago, the Spanish equivalent of JD power released a study in which the top-rated marque for complaints was none other than Daihatsu. Why? They sold extremely few cars and seemed to attract the less picky kind of customer. The third was none other than Dacia, the budget Romanian brand part of Renault group. Again, peoples expectations were low enough that few complaints were received. All while Jaguar, that recently topped UK satisfaction charts was a solid mid-low performed.
Quoting mham001 (Reply 64): I don't much care for Cadillacs design style and have little interest in them, but this kneejerking about the possibility of GM introducing a car that may be superior to much of what is currently being sold is interesting.
Anyone who has followed Cadillac's European record will tell you exactly why and how they have miserably failed each and every time they have tried.
It's amazing how this seemingly prepared people who make a very comfortable living out of selling cars fail to grasp such basic concepts and repeat the same mistakes over and over.
BMI727 From United States of America, joined Feb 2009, 14342 posts, RR: 26 Reply 72, posted (9 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2672 times:
Quoting kiwirob (Reply 65): I doubt any in Europe would know about those nasty v8 conversions done way back when, simple fact is without diesels Cadillac can forget about selling much product in Europe.
True.
Quoting kiwirob (Reply 65): I'm pretty sure that if Opel do badge engineer the XTS as an Omega fitting diesels into it will be there number 1 priority.
They would have to, but if they really want to push Cadillacs in Europe as Opels or anything else, why send the XTS? It's a (second) crappy interim model, when they could sell the much better CTS. But again, unless they could preserve a price differential, they'd come up short against the German brands.
By the way, I just saw that GM made a mid-nine figure deal to have Chevrolet sponsor Manchester United. It makes sense considering that Chevrolet is a worldwide brand and Manchester United is seen outside of Europe, but I can't imagine that this is a positive move for Opel/Vauxhall.
Quoting mham001 (Reply 64): I don't much care for Cadillacs design style and have little interest in them, but this kneejerking about the possibility of GM introducing a car that may be superior to much of what is currently being sold is interesting.
We're talking about the XTS, so I don't think there's any danger of being superior to what is currently being sold.
Why do Aerospace Engineering students have to turn things in on time?
petertenthije From Netherlands, joined Jul 2001, 3231 posts, RR: 13 Reply 73, posted (9 months 3 weeks 5 days 22 hours ago) and read 2667 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 72): By the way, I just saw that GM made a mid-nine figure deal to have Chevrolet sponsor Manchester United. It makes sense considering that Chevrolet is a worldwide brand and
The jokes have already started in the Netherlands. For instance saying that Chevrolet and Wayne Rooney are a perfect combination. Both are overweight, expensive and heavy drinkers.
stasisLAX From United States of America, joined Jul 2007, 3266 posts, RR: 6 Reply 74, posted (9 months 3 weeks 5 days 16 hours ago) and read 2607 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 64): Should mention too that the Nissan Versa, a fruit of that Renault alliance, is widely thought to be the worst car sold in the US. Is this the European quality to which we can look forward?
Indeed, the auto press hates the Versa (the sedan in particular) but it sells rather well in America due to its less than $12000 USD price tag - cheaper than most decent used cars here. And a Versa buyer gets a new-car warranty from Nissan. Admittedly, the resale value of a Versa will be incredibly low - but most Versa buyers will drive the car into the dirt anyhow, so resale doesn't matter to them. Oh, and the Versa has a huge back seat and trunk for a sub-compact. Cheap and big is a winning formula in the USA.....
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
KiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 5293 posts, RR: 3 Reply 75, posted (9 months 3 weeks 5 days 13 hours ago) and read 2588 times:
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 72): They would have to, but if they really want to push Cadillacs in Europe as Opels or anything else, why send the XTS? It's a (second) crappy interim model, when they could sell the much better CTS. But again, unless they could preserve a price differential, they'd come up short against the German brands.
It doesn't really matter what model of Cadillac they decide to sell in Europe badged as an Opel, it's not going to sell anyway, when a European wants to buy a premium saloon they buy one from Audi, BMW, Mercedes or Jaguar, the list of mass market brands who have dumped the big saloon is writ lagre, Ford dropped the Granada/Scorpio, Renault dropped the Vel Satis, Peugeot dropped the 607, Opel themselves dropped the Omega/Senator, they just don't sell.
mham001 From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3001 posts, RR: 3 Reply 77, posted (9 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2538 times:
Quoting kiwirob (Reply 65): The amount of coverage this got in the local media was pretty slight, the average Aussie or Kiwi probably couldn't care less that parts were stolen by Holden employees.
Not sure what that means in the context of keeping Holden alive, I would hope GM management cares to fire those in charge.
Quoting ozglobal (Reply 66): Americans don't drive BMWs or VWs made in the same factories as Europeans. e.g US BMWs are made largely in Mex, I believe. Europeans drive German built ones and that is their reference. We don't libe in the same automotive cosmos.
That is all model specific and no BMWs are made in Mexico yet. Most of the Mercedes sold here are made in Germany, yet they rate (overall) on par with Cadillac.. Some do know to only buy VW's made in Germany, which pretty much limits us to TDI Sportwagons. BTW, I have owned 2 Mercedes among dozens of German cars, the last being an over-engineered, expensive pos. Really, the only Euro manufacturer who has not had its own dark periods is BMW.
Quoting JJJ (Reply 71): All while Jaguar, that recently topped UK satisfaction charts was a solid mid-low performed.
Of course it does because that's all it deserves.
Quoting BMI727 (Reply 72): By the way, I just saw that GM made a mid-nine figure deal to have Chevrolet sponsor Manchester United. It makes sense considering that Chevrolet is a worldwide brand and Manchester United is seen outside of Europe, but I can't imagine that this is a positive move for Opel/Vauxhall.
Turns out, that was the move that cost their world marketing chief his job last weekend. Apparently, that decision was not vetted.
Quoting WildcatYXU (Reply 76): Which sedan does the press hate? The old one, or the current one (sold in Asia as Almera)
I don't know about the press but I have been reading owners opinions of the current model and they are not pretty. The CVT is universally despised. It's apparently "European" though, according to Anet lore, it must be good.
racko From Germany, joined Nov 2001, 4838 posts, RR: 21 Reply 80, posted (9 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2452 times:
Quoting mham001 (Reply 77): Turns out, that was the move that cost their world marketing chief his job last weekend. Apparently, that decision was not vetted.
Well they are reportedly paying more than twice as much as AON, ManUtd's current shirt sponsor, is paying per season, plus a giant signing fee. Classic GM incompetence. It's a $700 million deal, no way that was just this guy's fault, the board must have signed off and when they realized how much money they are wasting, someone had to take the fall.
In related GM insanity, Opel's new design chief was fired. 3 days before he even started his job.
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Hence why most of the luxury Germany companies (don't know about Jaguar) have rather popular badge delete options and created things like the S line and M sport. Europeans can be vain too.
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