klmcedric From Belgium, joined Dec 2003, 800 posts, RR: 24 Posted (10 months 4 weeks 16 hours ago) and read 3555 times:
I live in Belgium, I've been commuting to Amsterdam for the past ten years. I've also driven cars in lots of countries
around the world and there's one particular driving style that occurs rather occasionally in most countries but seems
to be the standard in the Netherlands and it concerns changing lanes and overtaking.
I always learned that when I'm, for instance, driving the right or middle lane and I want to overtake another vehicle,
I put on my signal and check my mirrors for oncoming faster traffic. If there is traffic, it is me offcourse that should give way
because I am planning to change my trajectory. Logic, no??
In Holland it's different, people who change lanes put on there blinker and do so, seemingly , without caring if there's faster
traffic coming , which will then need to hit the brakes, along with other traffic following that car.
Not only is this unbelievably irritating, it's also dangerous, and if you ask me induces traffic jams.
So please, can someone explain to me, WHY OH WHY ?????
The funny thing is that when you encounter dutch drivers in Belgium, Germany, France, etc, they seem to adapt
their driving style to the local one, go figure !!!
Other then that, no fuss with the dutch, I hope you don't take offence, but after ten years of enduring this I
thought I'd enquire if you're at least aware of this, and that you could maybe provide me with some logical explanationµ
for this.
MD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13368 posts, RR: 64 Reply 1, posted (10 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3529 times:
"Schwarze Schrift auf gelbem Grund, halte Abstand, bleib gesund!" ("Black letters on yellow background, keep distance, stay healthy!", refering to Dutch number plates).
Here where I live, in a rural and quite hilly part of western Germany (near HHN), there are lots of Dutch pensioners going on vacation. Most of them have serious problems driving in the hills.
fr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 4344 posts, RR: 12 Reply 3, posted (10 months 4 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 3507 times:
Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 2): Not sure this is a Dutch thing - there is very little lane or speed discipline here in the US and it drives me nuts.
Not sure where you've been driving, but I've spent a considerable amount of time driving cross-country this year (about 4000 miles) and that has not been my experience. Out on the open interstates, there is plenty of lane discipline. People signal, people speed up or slow down as necessary to match traffic and then change lanes. Of course, there is the occasional, I'll call them 'inattentive drivers', that stay in the left lane at some speed less than that lane is moving. But, they are far and few in between.
Now, as you approach major urban areas, all bets are off. And, it really depends on the city you're driving into/away from.
Having never been in Holland or met any recent Dutch drivers; is there a national sense of 'I let you know I'm coming, so I'm coming' attitude?
I know, when I lived and learned to drive in NY, that was certainly the case. I did the best I could to match the speed in the lane I was going to enter, signaled my intention and, after a brief look, entered the lane and made further adjustments, sometimes forcing the vehicle that is now behind me to make some 'minor' speed adjustments.
9MMPQ From Netherlands, joined Nov 2011, 250 posts, RR: 0 Reply 4, posted (10 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3404 times:
I'll be the first Dutch guy to respond then
Can't really agree with it being a standard. Seen it happen yes, but more then say, slower traffic not keeping to the right, excessive speeding etc etc etc ? No, not particularly & i'm regularly on the highways.
There's probably a whole list of things we can name which all of us, regardless of nationality, can relate to to some degree.
PS .. No offence taken at all.
I believe in coincidences. Coincidences happen every day. But I don't trust coincidences.
SmittyOne From United States of America, joined Feb 2012, 906 posts, RR: 2 Reply 5, posted (10 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3382 times:
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 3): Not sure where you've been driving, but I've spent a considerable amount of time driving cross-country this year (about 4000 miles) and that has not been my experience. Out on the open interstates, there is plenty of lane discipline. People signal, people speed up or slow down as necessary to match traffic and then change lanes. Of course, there is the occasional, I'll call them 'inattentive drivers', that stay in the left lane at some speed less than that lane is moving. But, they are far and few in between.
Now, as you approach major urban areas, all bets are off. And, it really depends on the city you're driving into/away from.
Fair enough...I haven't taken any good long road trips in the past 10 years but what you say above sounds better than I remember.
Most of my recent driving has been on the Garden State Parkway.
kiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 5420 posts, RR: 3 Reply 6, posted (10 months 4 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 3376 times:
That's not as annoying as Norwegian drivers who believe the open road limit (80kph) is just a guideline and that 60 to 70 kph is much better, what makes this even more annoying is that Norwegian road builders don't build passing lanes. When these people go to Denmark or Sweden despite both countries have limits up to 130kph the Norwegian driver still has an issue driving over 80kph. Driving anywhere in Norway is extremely frustrating.
Ferminios From Canada, joined Apr 2011, 85 posts, RR: 0 Reply 7, posted (10 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3366 times:
There are some drivers here who indeed don't care about the others on the road, but I guess we're not an exception in that. That said, In my short driving career so far I've far encountered the most close calls with what the OP describes in.... Belgium!
First prize goes to the A12 between Antwerp and Brussels, I encounter a situation like this pretty much every time I drive there: In front of me I see a Twingo pulling into the left lane , this while an Audi races past me on the left hand side well over the speed limit, and I can tell you, that Audi shouldn't have hit the brakes a second later.
KaiGywer From United States of America, joined Oct 2003, 12043 posts, RR: 42 Reply 8, posted (10 months 4 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 3340 times:
Quoting kiwirob (Reply 6): That's not as annoying as Norwegian drivers who believe the open road limit (80kph) is just a guideline and that 60 to 70 kph is much better, what makes this even more annoying is that Norwegian road builders don't build passing lanes. When these people go to Denmark or Sweden despite both countries have limits up to 130kph the Norwegian driver still has an issue driving over 80kph. Driving anywhere in Norway is extremely frustrating.
Probably because Utrykningspolitiet likes hiding and if caught at 1 kph over the limit, you get a fine that could buy you a house in some third world country
PlymSpotter From Spain, joined Jun 2004, 11251 posts, RR: 63 Reply 9, posted (10 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3314 times:
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 1): Most of them have serious problems driving in the hills.
There is an annual invasion of Dutch tourists to the South West of England too, with it's very steep and twisty roads. It's not uncommon to see a Dutch car 'stuck' on a hill, anything over about a 20% gradient and I tend to stand back and watch until they are done or even give up. To be fair though the gradients here are anything up to 30%.
lewis From Greece, joined Jul 1999, 3448 posts, RR: 5 Reply 10, posted (10 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3303 times:
I have driven in the Netherlands once, I didn't notice what you describe, at least no more than in other countries where there are also some stupid people who change lanes without even looking.
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 1): "Schwarze Schrift auf gelbem Grund, halte Abstand, bleib gesund!" ("Black letters on yellow background, keep distance, stay healthy!", refering to Dutch number plates).
You forgot the NL on the side of the license plate for "Never Learned" A joke I picked up in Munich, where there was a surprisingly high number of Dutch RVs.
Dreadnought From United States of America, joined Feb 2008, 7881 posts, RR: 22 Reply 12, posted (10 months 4 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 3284 times:
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 3): Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 2):
Not sure this is a Dutch thing - there is very little lane or speed discipline here in the US and it drives me nuts.
Not sure where you've been driving, but I've spent a considerable amount of time driving cross-country this year (about 4000 miles) and that has not been my experience.
I moved back to the US 6 years ago, after spending 20 years overseas. It took me a full six months before I could bring myself to pass someone on the right. People here think the left lane is "for when you don't want to deal with people merging in and out of the freeway". Seriously.
kaneporta1 From Greece, joined May 2005, 721 posts, RR: 11 Reply 15, posted (10 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3220 times:
Quoting klmcedric (Thread starter): I always learned that when I'm, for instance, driving the right or middle lane and I want to overtake another vehicle,
I put on my signal and check my mirrors for oncoming faster traffic. If there is traffic, it is me offcourse that should give way
because I am planning to change my trajectory. Logic, no??
In Holland it's different, people who change lanes put on there blinker and do so, seemingly , without caring if there's faster
traffic coming , which will then need to hit the brakes, along with other traffic following that car.
So, it's almost like in Quebec then, the main difference being, in Quebec, people don't bother with signaling or checking mirrors...
I'd rather die peacefully in my sleep, like my grandfather, not terrified and screaming, like his passengers
DocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 16932 posts, RR: 57 Reply 16, posted (10 months 4 weeks 6 hours ago) and read 3197 times:
Quoting SmittyOne (Reply 2):
Not sure this is a Dutch thing - there is very little lane or speed discipline here in the US and it drives me nuts.
OMG. Northern California is horrible for people driving 55 MPH in the left lane. Do you not see the signs all over the place that read: "SLOWER TRAFFIC KEEP RIGHT"?
Invariably, it's a tiny Asian lady in a Toyota Sienna or sometimes a Honda Odyssey. Call me racist, but it's true >80% of the time. I have learned to avoid Toyota Siennas like the plague.
Quoting Dreadnought (Reply 12): I moved back to the US 6 years ago, after spending 20 years overseas. It took me a full six months before I could bring myself to pass someone on the right. People here think the left lane is "for when you don't want to deal with people merging in and out of the freeway". Seriously.
Florida is the worst. Remember, Europeans, that the U.S. has much more liberal licensing policies. No age limits, not even tests of vision and reaction time after a certain age, given that the AARP is one of the largest political lobbying groups in existence. In Florida, standard experience is to see some land ship (of the sort Superfly would love) driving at about 45 MPH in the left lane with the left blinker on. Turning into a driveway requires coming to almost a full stop.
Quoting fr8mech (Reply 3): Not sure where you've been driving, but I've spent a considerable amount of time driving cross-country this year (about 4000 miles) and that has not been my experience. Out on the open interstates, there is plenty of lane discipline.
And cruise control use, which is key. The Bay Area is hilly, so a lot of people who aren't using the cruise control simply have trouble maintaining a constant speed while watching the road. I use cruise control, so I always find myself hitting the "cancel" button to avoid driving up their arses.
prebennorholm From Denmark, joined Mar 2000, 6039 posts, RR: 55 Reply 17, posted (10 months 4 weeks 4 hours ago) and read 3161 times:
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 1): Here where I live, in a rural and quite hilly part of western Germany (near HHN), there are lots of Dutch pensioners going on vacation. Most of them have serious problems driving in the hills.
On vacation in Switzerland I learned that the worst "four letter word" in Switzerland is "Dutch camping trailer".
The locals explained to me that Dutchmen seem to think that every mountain pass on the map is suitable for a camping trailer.
When I am on holiday in Switzerland (at least once a year for the last 25 years) then I am often mistaken for a Dutchman, even if I never brought a camping trailer with me. When I arrive, then the rumor spreads like a wildfire all over the village: "The Dutchman has arrived".
In Switzerland, when you don't speak either Swiss German, proper Hochdeutsch, or at least Bavarian, but only some broken German language, then you are automatically considered a Dutchman. You don't need to get stuck with a camping trailer on a narrow mountain road to be considered a Dutchman, but it helps.
Heard in the Migros supermarket:
"There is no NZZ on the newspaper shelf. Is it out of stock?".
"Yes, the Dutchman bought the last one".
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs, Preben Norholm
757MDE From Colombia, joined Sep 2004, 1753 posts, RR: 6 Reply 18, posted (10 months 4 weeks 3 hours ago) and read 3148 times:
I drove between The Hague and Dusseldorf and back and then between The Hague and Liege and back while also visiting Amsterdam, Maastrich, Antwerpen and others and I honestly did not notice this (maybe one or two but nothing that I would classify as "characteristic"). But then again, it was just a couple weeks driving there.
It may be though, that I am used to Colombia which is hell to drive on (but I have to as long as I live here) and that gives mass driving licenses when you buy bags of chips.
What I did not like about driving in the Netherlands though was the many cameras with the sometimes ridiculous speed limits given the overall good and plain roads. I was always happy when I got into Germany.
[Edited 2012-07-25 19:52:15]
I gladly accept donations to pay for flight hours! This thing draws man...
kiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 5420 posts, RR: 3 Reply 19, posted (10 months 4 weeks ago) and read 3093 times:
Quoting KaiGywer (Reply 8): Probably because Utrykningspolitiet likes hiding and if caught at 1 kph over the limit, you get a fine that could buy you a house in some third world country
You can get away with about 5kph over the limit before you'll be stopped or trigger a speed camera.
iakobos From Belgium, joined Aug 2003, 3305 posts, RR: 37 Reply 20, posted (10 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3006 times:
Quoting PlymSpotter (Reply 9): It's not uncommon to see a Dutch car 'stuck' on a hill, anything over about a 20% gradient and I tend to stand back and watch until they are done or even give up.
While on holidays, Dutch carry a full complement of potatoes, peanut butter, milk and cheap cookies, that explains the speed and restricted climbing capabilities.
Quoting klmcedric (Thread starter): In Holland it's different, people who change lanes put on there blinker and do so, seemingly , without caring if there's faster traffic coming , which will then need to hit the brakes, along with other traffic following that car.
The Dutch car market, like everything else btw, is savvy conscious. That's why blinkers are optional in the Netherlands.
If you come across an erratic driving NL car, it's likely that the driver is wearing clogs.
klmcedric From Belgium, joined Dec 2003, 800 posts, RR: 24 Reply 22, posted (10 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 2946 times:
It's obvious you have complete and utter idiots on the road in any given country, not in the least in my own country,
but this thing where a driver puts on his left blinker (driving approw 100kph) and then just moves to the left lane
not caring that I'm like 50m behind doing a 130kph, which then leads to my brakes almost overheating , that
for me is a dutch invented fenomenon. It just happens all the time there, while in other countries it's less of a
natural behaviour for drivers.
Sometimes I am under the impression that the dutch learn this in driving school.
petertenthije From Netherlands, joined Jul 2001, 3239 posts, RR: 13 Reply 23, posted (10 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 2920 times:
The behavior you describe is probably more common in the Randstad area then the rest of the country. From your routing (ANT > AMS) you mostly drive in the Randstad. Therefor the chance for encountering this behavior is more likely.
The behavior is not justifiable, but it can be explained. The Randstad (in particular) was heavily gridlocked. That means that if you want to move from the slow lane into the fast lane, you'd better take any opportunity you can get. Even if it means being a complete jackass. If you wait for someone to politely let you merge, then you'll be stuck behind a lorry for ages. You'll find that where road capacity is more suited to demand the driving is a lot better.
As you probably know the last 5 or so years there have been mayor road works all over the country, but particularly in the Noord Holland (everything south of Amsterdam), Gelderland (A12, A50) and Utrecht (everything!) areas. The Entire A2 from Den Bosch to Amsterdam has had lanes added (Eindhoven to Den Bosch is still a building site). The A2 between Amsterdan and Utrecht has gone from 2x3 very narrow lanes to 2x5 wide lanes with two emergency shoulders on either side. The Rotterdam area is still a mess, but there are massive projects there as well. Hopefully this should improve the city folk's driving style.
As for the general opinion that Dutch drivers are bad, I think that is a fair assessment. I believe the reason a lot of Dutch drivers are not that good is because they are being dumbed down by the government. A lot of roads in the Netherlands have been downgraded: they have been narrowed, speed limit lowered (along with speed bumps, cameras and chicanes), overtaking disallowed (sometimes even made impossible with barriers), intersections replaced with roundabouts and turbo-roundabouts and did I already mention of traffic cameras? This has made the Netherlands one of the safest countries in the world. But it also means that a lot of drivers appear to have lost their feeling for traffic.
You can't blame a Dutchmen for not knowing how to drive in mountains. Most Dutchmen will never encounter anything steeper then a speed bump. In fairness though, a speed bump can easily be a steep as the steepest mountain in Switzerland! Just not quite as tall!
I do believe Belgians are worse then Dutch drivers though! But I can perfectly understand the other countries complaining about us.
Nah, it stands for "Nur Limo" (only lemonade), because that's all they buy - reason being:
Quoting iakobos (Reply 20): While on holidays, Dutch carry a full complement of potatoes, peanut butter, milk and cheap cookies,
No seriously I've always found driving in the Netherlands to be very pleasant. The roads are great, the general speed limit is a blessing and drivers are mostly considerate.
Samson was a biblical tough guy, but his dad Samsonite was even more of a hard case.
25 JRadier: Whahahahahahahahaha amazing! Thanks for posting!
26 David L: Ah... Dutch, Belgians and Germans discussing each other's driving. It doesn't get much funnier than that. Ditto Same here. I often take the M8 motorwa
27 fr8mech: My wife has the uncanny ability to maintain speed and lane...at the same same time without using the cruise control. All this while hurtling down the
28 vandenheuvel: I have to agree with the op. People simply don't understand you can't merge while driving at a different speed. Also because we're not allowed to take
29 MD11Engineer: Actually my main complaint are Dutch long distance truck drivers. I used to live in Mönchengladbach and used to drive down the A61 every evening for
30 TheCommodore: Hi Jan, well that's hardly surprising considering The Netherlands is all flat, with some small bumps they call hills, in the south of the country, an
31 petertenthije: Dutch trucks have a governor, same as German trucks. It's set at ~87 KPH. When the police find out about disabled governors the fines are massive, an
32 JRadier: As always, there are two sides to a story, but this one needs a bit of nuance. Yes, loads of my fellow countrymen (with or without trailers) do not k
33 KaiGywer: I still don't think it's fair to give me my ticket for 60 in a 40 when I was passing the guy going 30
34 incitatus: The entire USA has become a terrible place to drive as hand-held devices spread. Signaling? What is that? You know a driver is about to change lanes
35 MD11Engineer: I would check the German traffic rules, if I were you. Since about 5 years you have to have tyres fitting to the conditions on all wheels. This means
36 voodoo: Completely agree. Belgium is the only country where I've actually witnessed more than 1 accident in a day! On multiple days. And been the victim of a
37 petertenthije: That is true for passenger cars. But for commercial vehicles over 3,5 tonnes this only applies to the wheels on the drive shaft(s). This is current a
38 eurowings: I often see a Dutch registered lorry parked up near my local florist here in Northern England, as far as I know it's driven well and according to the
39 stasisLAX: Same thing here in Arizona - but it usually involves a huge RV (sporting a license plate from an upper Midwest state - damn snowbirds!) with a "pull
40 flyingturtle: As I'm not a driver, I only have one occurrence to share... I returned from a hiking trip near Arolla ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arolla ) two year
41 oldman55: Im afraid that is a pretty good description of me I do try to go at least 5 miles over the posted limit so I am not completely slowing everyone else
42 RayChuang: Here in the USA, if the posted speed limit on our limited access freeways is 65 mph (105 km/h) for automobiles, you better drive at least 70 mph (113
43 DocLightning: While we're on the topic: Dear NorCal drivers: They are called "speed bumps," not "stop bumps." Sincerely, -Me I especially love the people who have t
44 RayChuang: I don't know--if you're talking the current or previous generation Toyota Sienna minivan, I've seen many of them zip by me on I-80 west of Sacramento
45 klmcedric: Well, according to this survey taken amongst 30000 people from 15 different Euro countries, I to as a Belgian have a right to complain, along with th
46 SuperCaravelle: This is a survey only and only perceived truth as opposed to facts. I agree with the first poster, people tend to do this a lot in the Netherlands, I
47 DocLightning: The issue isn't the Sienna. The issue is the people who drive it.
48 stasisLAX: My favorite pet peeve about Arizona drivers - slammed 1990's era Honda Civics with "fart can" exhaust systems, wheels worth more than the entire car
49 shamrock604: I can sort of understand where the op is coming from! Once, while driving on the A4 towards Schiphol, somewhere near Roelofarendsveen, I was pulled ov
50 DocLightning: You forgot the massive spoiler on the back of the Civic, often in a color that doesn't *quite* match the body. And the thumping rap music that can be
51 RobertNL070: After living and driving in the Netherlands for more than 25 years, I can't say that the Dutch drivers are better or worse than other nationalities. A
52 bhill: Funny....Boston drivers are the same way...anything behind the door mirrors does not exist. I have actually seen a string of Boston drivers, during ru
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