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Marriage Equality In New Zealand?  
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24640 posts, RR: 86
Posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks ago) and read 3497 times:
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A bill allowing same-sex marriage is to go forward to the Parliament and may - may - be passed:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/nz/news/article.cfm?c_id=1&objectid=10822370

I think it would be a great think for those who want it, although I don't want or intend to get married.

I'm one of the subversives - I regard myself as "queer" not "gay."

When I first came to terms with my sexuality I saw it as a great gift - the freedom to love whomever I wanted for a long as it lasted - regardless of gender. I could even to love more than one person at the same, as happened (with a bloke and a woman) one magic summer.

But it is about equality of opportunity - you can not you must - and so I hope it passes.

mariner

[Edited 2012-07-25 21:41:03]


aeternum nauta
53 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineKent350787 From Australia, joined May 2008, 955 posts, RR: 0
Reply 1, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks ago) and read 3490 times:

Hopefully it passes in NZ and then Aussie politics can get past appealing to bigotry and do the same. Maybe some politicians on both sides of the dutch could also be more open about their sexuality.

User currently onlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5254 posts, RR: 8
Reply 2, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks ago) and read 3486 times:

Quoting mariner (Thread starter):
I regard myself as "queer" not "gay."

Go Queer's!

Wishing good luck to you queer New Zealanders!   

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24640 posts, RR: 86
Reply 3, posted (1 year 8 months 4 weeks ago) and read 3479 times:
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Quoting tugger (Reply 2):
Go Queer's!

Too right, mate!  

There is hope that it will pass - even the Young Nationals (right of centre) are pressing the government:

http://tvnz.co.nz/politics-news/conf...-marriage-bill-get-through-4988497

"The Young Nats have also come out in support of the Bill, and will be lobbying National MPs.

"Our generation overwhelmingly supports marriage equality for all New Zealanders and our Members of Parliament need to vote with that in mind," Young Nats President, Sean Topham, said."


mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineaerorobnz From Rwanda, joined Feb 2001, 6901 posts, RR: 13
Reply 4, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 20 hours ago) and read 3432 times:

If someone wants to endure the perils of marriage then good luck to them, abject misery shouldn't be reserved to heteros IMO.

User currently offlinekiwirob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 6663 posts, RR: 3
Reply 5, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 19 hours ago) and read 3419 times:

Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 1):
Maybe some politicians on both sides of the dutch could also be more open about their sexuality.

We've had a fair number of openly gay politicians in NZ, we even had a transexual MP. We're probalby about more liberated than you lot over there.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24640 posts, RR: 86
Reply 6, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 18 hours ago) and read 3391 times:
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Quoting Kent350787 (Reply 1):
Hopefully it passes in NZ and then Aussie politics can get past appealing to bigotry and do the same.

Then again - if it passes, maybe NZ tourism could sell it in Australia. It might produce some financial benefit, although not in the same league as New York:

http://www.latimes.com/business/mone...riage-nyc-20120725,0,5772968.story

"Gay marriages: $259-million economic boost to NYC in one year

One year after New York made same-sex marriage legal in the state, a report backed by New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg found that the Marriage Equality Act boosted the economy by $259 million in NYC alone."


But Queenstown could probably do well out of it.  

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 3816 posts, RR: 28
Reply 7, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 17 hours ago) and read 3370 times:

Quoting mariner (Thread starter):
But it is about equality of opportunity - you can not you must - and so I hope it passes.

So does that mean single people will no longer be discriminated against compared to married people? Or is it just like Animal Farm, where some are more equal than others?



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineflipdewaf From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2006, 1550 posts, RR: 1
Reply 8, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3357 times:
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Quoting Pyrex (Reply 7):
So does that mean single people will no longer be discriminated against compared to married people? Or is it just like Animal Farm, where some are more equal than others?

It'll probably remain the same, same as many other things if it is seen as being a benefit to society/economy/environment etc then it will be taxed/benefited accordingly.

Different issue so for a different thread I suppose.

Fred


User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 3816 posts, RR: 28
Reply 9, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3350 times:

Quoting flipdewaf (Reply 8):
Different issue so for a different thread I suppose.

Not really, the word equality is being bounced around as if it means something so it is relevant to understand who exactly is "equal" and who is not.



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently onlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1060 posts, RR: 1
Reply 10, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3341 times:

Very interesting, I really hope it passes (though without any adoption amendments). That said, I think there might be a blood bath when it comes to debating and voting on the legislation. This will be a conscience vote so not necessarily along party lines. I'm sure Family First will put significant efforts into lobbying against it. Also, it will be interesting to see which way the Prime Minister votes - he voted against the civil union legislation (back in 2005ish) on the pretence that his electorate was against it.

Quoting mariner (Reply 3):
There is hope that it will pass - even the Young Nationals (right of centre) are pressing the government

I (and the political party's youth wing to which I belong) were all quite surprised by this. It was actually the Young Nats who brought this issue up when they passed a remit in support of gay-marriage a few months ago - I happen to know a couple of people who were involved.



repaint ZK-PBG!
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6546 posts, RR: 6
Reply 11, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 15 hours ago) and read 3319 times:
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Quoting Pyrex (Reply 7):
So does that mean single people will no longer be discriminated against compared to married people? Or is it just like Animal Farm, where some are more equal than others?
Quoting Pyrex (Reply 9):

Not really, the word equality is being bounced around as if it means something so it is relevant to understand who exactly is "equal" and who is not.

What are you talking about? Its like your saying you same sex marriage equality should never happen because oranges and strawberries will never be equal.



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24640 posts, RR: 86
Reply 12, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3276 times:
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Quoting Pyrex (Reply 7):
So does that mean single people will no longer be discriminated against compared to married people? Or is it just like Animal Farm, where some are more equal than others?
Quoting Pyrex (Reply 9):
Not really, the word equality is being bounced around as if it means something so it is relevant to understand who exactly is "equal" and who is not.

Um - I used "equality of opportunity" so I'm not sure what you mean. If it passes, then yes - as I see it - all single people will have equality of opportunity in the marriage stakes.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineDeltaMD90 From United States of America, joined Apr 2008, 7276 posts, RR: 52
Reply 13, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3269 times:

I really (really) don't want to start a war here, but I am actually surprised NZ (and now that I looked it up, a lot of European countries) don't have gay marriage. I thought most these countries legalized it already as 90% of the people from these countries seem to be in favor of it. Why hasn't same-sex marriage (as opposed to civil unions) been legalized in these countries and why does America get such a bad rap considering ~50% of the US population is for it and we lack gay marriage just like most Western countries?

Again, not trying to sling mud, it just peaked my curiosity.

Hope this bill gets passed!



Ironically I have never flown a Delta MD-90 :)
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24640 posts, RR: 86
Reply 14, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 9 hours ago) and read 3261 times:
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Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 13):
I really (really) don't want to start a war here, but I am actually surprised NZ (and now that I looked it up, a lot of European countries) don't have gay marriage. I thought most these countries legalized it already as 90% of the people from these countries seem to be in favor of it.

That's quite a recent phenomenon - at least in NZ. When the Civil Unions bill was passed there was a huge hoo-haa, and the PM had to insist (pointlessly, it didn't stop the media) that it wasn't "marriage."

The rapid acceptance of marriage equality, at least in the polls, has surprised many.

And it is still a bitter political debate across the ditch in Oz, where the majority of the population is "for" same-sex marriage, but most states don't even have civil unions and the PM, the leader of the Labor party (the party of fraternal "equality), an atheist spinster cohabiting with a man, is against same sex marriage on religious grounds. Dos she thus consider she is "living in sin" with her partner?

Sometimes you can only shake your head in wonder.  

mariner

[Edited 2012-07-26 13:39:06]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlineTheCommodore From Australia, joined Dec 2007, 2554 posts, RR: 6
Reply 15, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 7 hours ago) and read 3228 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 6):
But Queenstown could probably do well out of it.

Hope so, its a beautiful part of the world alright.

And maybe it could be renamed Queertown   

NZ is such a progressive little place in so many respects. If only Australia could get its act together.

So, I too, wish all gays and queers in NZ, the best, and I hope this bill passes.   

[Edited 2012-07-26 14:43:17]


Flown 905,468 kms or 2.356 times to the moon, 1296 hrs, Longest flight 10,524 kms
User currently offlinetexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4264 posts, RR: 52
Reply 16, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3201 times:

Although it is a small sample size, all the people I've talked to in Wellington are in favour of the proposed bill. It also sounds like the bill will survive the first reading with near unanimous support (Labour, Nationals, Greens . . . even Turia, Dunne and Harawira have said they are likely to support it). I've only found two MPs who have said they plan to vote against it.

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18704 posts, RR: 58
Reply 17, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3194 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 9):
Not really, the word equality is being bounced around as if it means something so it is relevant to understand who exactly is "equal" and who is not.

It means that if you choose to marry the partner of your choice, then you are legally permitted to do so.

I've read your argument before that marriage discriminates against single people, therefore gays should not be allowed to get married. Yes, that IS your argument. You throw a lot more words into it, but that's the redux.


User currently offlineBNE From Australia, joined Mar 2000, 3169 posts, RR: 12
Reply 18, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 6 hours ago) and read 3195 times:

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 15):
NZ is such a progressive little place in so many respects. If only Australia could get its act together.

I agree with you on with that.

What is interesting in Australian politics is that the Labor government formed a minority government with the support of an Australian Greens, Bob Brown the leader of the Australian greens up until 13 April 2012, is openly gay.

Interestingly the leader of the opposition, Tony Abbot his sister is a lesbian, so you would think that maybe some politicians just want to bury their heads in the sand.

You couldn't make this story up even if you tried, I have included a few wiki links.



Why fly non stop when you can connect
User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8492 posts, RR: 14
Reply 19, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 4 hours ago) and read 3161 times:
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Please New Zealand, don't screw this opportunity up. It would be great to see us join the ranks of civilised countries, but make no mistake about it, even with widespread support from the general public this legislation is not guaranteed to make it into law.

People who are opposed to marriage equality will fight tooth and claw to block this, we need to make sure that the politicians understand that turning this down is not only a slap in the face to the queer community in New Zealand, but also to our friends and families. If they think that blocking equality is only going to piss off a few hundred thousand gay men and women they might be inclined to do it, but if each of us mobilises 5 or 6 (or more) of our straight friends or family to email their MP hopefully the politicians will realise that a lot more votes might be at stake. Those opposed will do anything possible to make their numbers seem as large as possible and I believe the biggest threat to this bill is apathy from the general public who in general are in favour of marriage equality, but probably can't be bothered to say or do anything to push for it.



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21353 posts, RR: 54
Reply 20, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3150 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 13):

I really (really) don't want to start a war here, but I am actually surprised NZ (and now that I looked it up, a lot of European countries) don't have gay marriage. I thought most these countries legalized it already as 90% of the people from these countries seem to be in favor of it. Why hasn't same-sex marriage (as opposed to civil unions) been legalized in these countries and why does America get such a bad rap considering ~50% of the US population is for it and we lack gay marriage just like most Western countries?

Probably because "marriage" as a label is much less of an issue once the practical discrimination has been eliminated under the label of "domestic partnership" or similar. There is much less focus on religious issues here, and very little of the open hatred and active push for discrimination which are still virulent in the US and which create most of the conflict in this matter.


User currently onlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1060 posts, RR: 1
Reply 21, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3142 times:

Quoting texan (Reply 16):
I've only found two MPs who have said they plan to vote against it.

Which ones were those?

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 15):
NZ is such a progressive little place in so many respects.

One of the many reasons why I'm a proud Kiwi.  



repaint ZK-PBG!
User currently offlineWestJet747 From Canada, joined Aug 2011, 1785 posts, RR: 10
Reply 22, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 3 hours ago) and read 3138 times:

I'm with DeltaMD90 here. I thought gay marriage was already on the books in New Zealand!

Either way, this is great news, and I hope it passes.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 7):
So does that mean single people will no longer be discriminated against compared to married people?

Are you arguing that marriage discriminates against single people, or did I misinterpret that?

Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 15):
And maybe it could be renamed Queertown

Call it what you want, it's still one of my favourite places in the world  



Flying refined.
User currently offlinetexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4264 posts, RR: 52
Reply 23, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 2 hours ago) and read 3128 times:

Quoting zkojq (Reply 21):
Quoting texan (Reply 16):I've only found two MPs who have said they plan to vote against it.
Which ones were those?

National's Chester Borrows and NZ First MP Richard Prosser.

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlinepacificjourney From New Zealand, joined Jul 2001, 2727 posts, RR: 8
Reply 24, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days 1 hour ago) and read 3117 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 6):
But Queenstown could probably do well out of it.

Good one ! Then there is where I live, Whakapapa (pronounced fuk-a-papa), could work for the racy set ?



" Help, help ... I'm being oppressed ... "
User currently offlinePyrex From Portugal, joined Aug 2005, 3816 posts, RR: 28
Reply 25, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3142 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 11):
What are you talking about? Its like your saying you same sex marriage equality should never happen because oranges and strawberries will never be equal.

If you want to defend gay marriage go right ahead, just don't through the word equality into it. It is like the Puritans saying they fled England to escape religious discrimination - BS, they were very much in favor of religious discrimination, they just didn't like being on the receiving end of it.

Quoting mariner (Reply 12):
all single people will have equality of opportunity in the marriage stakes.

No they don't, only engaged people...

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 17):
I've read your argument before that marriage discriminates against single people, therefore gays should not be allowed to get married. Yes, that IS your argument.

All I am saying is don't congratulate yourself and throw around empty words like "equality" (what is that, this season's tolerance?) as if they mean anything.

Quoting WestJet747 (Reply 22):
Are you arguing that marriage discriminates against single people, or did I misinterpret that?

Marriage is just a word, marriage does not discriminate against anything or anyone. What does discriminate against single people is governments, by making them pay more taxes, forfeit all the forced contributions they were made to make to Social Security if they die before their time, etc.



Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18704 posts, RR: 58
Reply 26, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3137 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 25):
All I am saying is don't congratulate yourself and throw around empty words like "equality" (what is that, this season's tolerance?) as if they mean anything.

Yeah they do. It would mean that I am as equally entitled to marry the consenting adult of my choice as you are.

I don't know why I bother arguing with you about it.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24640 posts, RR: 86
Reply 27, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3152 times:
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Quoting TheCommodore (Reply 15):
And maybe it could be renamed Queertown

Oh. I thought "Queens Town" was quite subtle.  
Quoting texan (Reply 23):
National's Chester Borrows and NZ First MP Richard Prosser.

And, of course, this joker - not an MP but a voice - has chimed in:

http://tvnz.co.nz/national-news/cons...ays-gay-marriage-not-right-4991169

"Conservative leader says gay marriage 'not right'

Conservative leader Colin Craig is causing a storm on Twitter by saying that gay relationships are not normal.

This morning Craig tweeted that: "It's just not intelligent to pretend that homosexual relationships are normal," in response to Louisa Wall's Marriage Amendment Bill being drawn from the ballot in Parliament yesterday.

Now trending on New Zealand Twitter feeds, Craig said "it is important that marriage remains between a man and a woman".


And then there's that Scottish Archbishop who just said that being homosexual reduces your life span by twenty years.

I'm still shaking my head in wonder at that one, too.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineKent350787 From Australia, joined May 2008, 955 posts, RR: 0
Reply 28, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3148 times:

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 5):
We've had a fair number of openly gay politicians in NZ, we even had a transexual MP. We're probalby about more liberated than you lot over there.

I was alluding to a very high profile politician, of course.

I just wish Australians were as positve and less actively bigoted as Kiwis.


User currently offlineTheCol From Canada, joined Jan 2007, 2032 posts, RR: 6
Reply 29, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 6 days ago) and read 3147 times:

Quoting aerorobnz (Reply 4):

  




No matter how random things may appear, there's always a plan.
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24640 posts, RR: 86
Reply 30, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 23 hours ago) and read 3136 times:
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Quoting Pyrex (Reply 25):
It is like the Puritans saying they fled England to escape religious discrimination

You keep missing the qualifiers. They did flee England to escape persecution - of themselves - as "protestants" against the established Church.

Equality doesn't come into it.

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 25):
No they don't, only engaged people...

That's cute. Conventionally, engagement is considered part of the marriage process, but an engaged person is still a single person.

He/she may be a single person who has made promises or has obligations, but he/she is still considered single - as in "not married."

mariner

[Edited 2012-07-26 23:05:46]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinekiwiinoz From New Zealand, joined Oct 2005, 2165 posts, RR: 5
Reply 31, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 21 hours ago) and read 3101 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 25):
Quoting mariner (Reply 12):
all single people will have equality of opportunity in the marriage stakes.

No they don't, only engaged people...

What a bizarre line of reasoning. But humouring you, I guess you are right. Marriage rights for people in a gay or straight partnership DOES discriminate against people who are not in a partnership. By the same reasoning:

Engaging in consensual sex disctriminates against people who have no partner with which to engage with
Eating bananas in the morning discriminates against people who have chosen not to buy any bananas at that time
Watching "Neighbours" in Australia discriminates against those in Guatemala who don't get "Neighbours", (well, maybe they do)
People drinking coffee in Italy discrminate against those drinking coffee in Hong Kong, (most coffee sucks here)


User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13800 posts, RR: 63
Reply 32, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 20 hours ago) and read 3096 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 14):

And it is still a bitter political debate across the ditch in Oz, where the majority of the population is "for" same-sex marriage, but most states don't even have civil unions and the PM, the leader of the Labor party (the party of fraternal "equality), an atheist spinster cohabiting with a man, is against same sex marriage on religious grounds. Dos she thus consider she is "living in sin" with her partner?

About 20 years ago I knew a gay Australian, who was living in Berlin since many years and working as a nurse. He told me that he came from rural New South Wales and that he (and his friends) got regularly beaten up by the country bumpkins.

Jan


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24640 posts, RR: 86
Reply 33, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 18 hours ago) and read 3072 times:
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Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 32):
About 20 years ago I knew a gay Australian, who was living in Berlin since many years and working as a nurse. He told me that he came from rural New South Wales and that he (and his friends) got regularly beaten up by the country bumpkins.

I wonder where he lived? I know there is poofter bashing in Australia, but it's never happened to me.

I make no secret of my sexuality, never have, and I wear a diamond earring (which is immediately suspicious to some - LOL). I've been going to rural/outback Australia since 1974, to some of the roughest and most remote places there are - l love the real outback - and I've never had problems. Mostly, I've encountered a lot of kindness and friendship.

Once, in Lightning Ridge (rough, redneck, opal mining) I was called a fucken poofter in a pub. I've been called worse than that in my life, so I laughed and said "true"- and nothing came of it.

Here in NZ I live in a tiny fishing village in the woop-woop and I have been completely embraced by the locals. If I need help I just have to call and after a really bad storm, a dozen local blokes will ring me to see if I'm okay and if I need anything. I have my allotted role as the "exotic outsider", and on special village occasions I have to wear a flash tie and make the speech or give out the prizes.

mariner

[Edited 2012-07-27 03:58:26]


aeternum nauta
User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3067 posts, RR: 7
Reply 34, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 17 hours ago) and read 3045 times:

Quoting Pyrex (Reply 25):
All I am saying is don't congratulate yourself and throw around empty words like "equality" (what is that, this season's tolerance?) as if they mean anything.
Quoting kiwiinoz (Reply 31):
What a bizarre line of reasoning. But humouring you, I guess you are right. Marriage rights for people in a gay or straight partnership DOES discriminate against people who are not in a partnership.

I've heard and understand the "single discrimination" argument before. There are certain disadvantages in income taxes (does that apply anywhere other than the US?). And singles are at a disadvantage when reserving double rooms at hotels and cruises, and I suppose singles can't take advantage of family packages (of anything, amusement rides, train fares, pork chops, soap). I've observed disgruntledness between singles and married people who have kids (and some vice versa), but that is more sour grapes on either side than discrimination. Other than that, I can't think of anything... so in terms of discrimination, it's one of the minor, really minor, faces of it. What am I missing?

-Rampart


User currently onlinezkojq From New Zealand, joined Sep 2011, 1060 posts, RR: 1
Reply 35, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 14 hours ago) and read 3015 times:

Interesting piece from Partick Gower saying that most National MPs will vote the same way as John Key:
http://www.3news.co.nz/Opinion-Keys-...1382/articleID/262831/Default.aspx

I'd say that this has very good chance of passing: pretty much everyone in Labour, Greens and Mana will support it - probably the Maori Party also. ACT and United Future will vote against, NZFirst will most likely be split. In this situation, only a few National MPs would have to support the legislation for it to pass.

Quoting texan (Reply 23):
NZ First MP Richard Prosser

Oops, I should have known that. Not surprising really, he has some [b]very[/] far right viewpoints. The irony of this being that he is divorced - so much for the 'sanctity' argument.

Quoting mariner (Reply 27):
And, of course, this joker - not an MP but a voice - has chimed in:

   I really wish he would just keep his mouth shut - he is such a disgrace to Conservativism, Christianity as well as the area I live/electorate. He does far more harm than good for both causes. Sadly, he probably has a fairly decent chance at getting elected next time around, thanks to John Banks' antics. 


Quoting rampart (Reply 34):
Other than that, I can't think of anything

Adoption.



repaint ZK-PBG!
User currently offlinerampart From United States of America, joined Aug 2005, 3067 posts, RR: 7
Reply 36, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 9 hours ago) and read 2975 times:

Quoting zkojq (Reply 35):
Quoting rampart (Reply 34): Other than that, I can't think of anything
Adoption.

Ah, very good point. That should be next on the agenda. It's already a struggle for same-sex partners to do so. And may continue to be regardless of marriage equality: adoption agencies, other countries that have children to adopt have their own standards.

-Rampart


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18704 posts, RR: 58
Reply 37, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 8 hours ago) and read 2951 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 33):
Once, in Lightning Ridge (rough, redneck, opal mining) I was called a fucken poofter in a pub. I've been called worse than that in my life, so I laughed and said "true"- and nothing came of it.

The correct answer is "True. Probably get more fucken than you do, too."   


User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6109 posts, RR: 9
Reply 38, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2929 times:

Quoting DeltaMD90 (Reply 13):
Why hasn't same-sex marriage (as opposed to civil unions) been legalized in these countries and why does America get such a bad rap considering ~50% of the US population is for it and we lack gay marriage just like most Western countries?

I'm guessing the bad rap comes from the UK where there is gay marriage. Also, I don't think most western countries, when they don't have gay marriage, have the opposite like in the US where there was and is a big scramble to redefine marriage to make it clearer that it's between a man and a woman (and the fact that each state has its law means it's 50 times more often in the news).

Also, when there is a civil union then a lot of LGBT people may lose interest in full blown marriage, when such is already falling out of favor for heteros anyway.

For example in France there are now 3 civil unions for 4 marriages.



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User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8492 posts, RR: 14
Reply 39, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 6 hours ago) and read 2928 times:
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Quoting Aesma (Reply 38):
I'm guessing the bad rap comes from the UK where there is gay marriage.

There is not gay marriage in the UK, although one part of the UK, Scotland, has committed to introducing it in 2015. At the moment the UK only has "Civil Partnership" in much the same way that NZ only has "Civil Union"



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6109 posts, RR: 9
Reply 40, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2916 times:

You're right I got confused somehow, even though I read about it a couple weeks ago.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24640 posts, RR: 86
Reply 41, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2907 times:
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Absolutely predictably, the opposing forces are girding their loins, the Evangelist noted above and the Catholic church. I'm waiting for the (self appointed) Bishop Tamaki of Destiny Church to chime in:

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/relationsh...icle.cfm?c_id=41&objectid=10822775

"Gay marriage opponents gear up to fight Wall's bill

Conservative Party leader Colin Craig said he was planning a "research-based" campaign on the advantages of heterosexual relationships and traditional family structures.

"I'm keen to be part of a campaign to get out there on this issue. It would look intelligently at the differences between homosexual parenting and a Mum and a Dad. Does gender matter, does role-modelling matter?"

The Catholic Church said it opposed the bill and was appealing to MPs to keep marriage "as defined as between a man and a woman".

The Bishop of Auckland, Pat Dunn, said the church affirmed love and fidelity in all relationships, but there were other legal avenues aside from marriage that allowed couples to "publicly cement their lifelong commitment to each other"."


If the Catholic hierarchy keeps the debate that temperate,I don't have a problem with it. I recognise that there are opposing views. I really, really hope they don't go the way of that ludicrous statement by the Scottish Archbishop, At least he has now (sort of) apologised, but how can he say that there was "no offence or judgement intended in his words"?

And as a side note, it always amuses me that St. Paul advocated celibacy as the ideal state, and marriage for those who could control their lust.

"But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion."

So if the church doesn't want homosexuals rampaging around "burning with passion" - LOL - better get 'em married.

It is the Evangelists who continually amaze me, such as this bloke:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0...1710925.html?utm_hp_ref=gay-voices

"A right-wing pastor has come to Chick-fil-A's defense, not only applauding the Atlanta-based fast food company for its anti-gay views but also claiming that same-sex marriage brought about the great flood referenced in the biblical narrative of Noah's ark."

Re-reading Genesis 6/7, I see no mention of same sex relationships, or thus same sex marriage. The only mentioned sins are corruption, which is not explained, and violence:

"13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth."

I don't see how it can be any clearer than that and I - non-believer - wonder that he has the temerity to put words in God's mouth.

Perhaps "violence" is less offensive to him than love.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18704 posts, RR: 58
Reply 42, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 5 hours ago) and read 2910 times:

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 39):
There is not gay marriage in the UK, although one part of the UK, Scotland, has committed to introducing it in 2015. At the moment the UK only has "Civil Partnership" in much the same way that NZ only has "Civil Union"

IIRC, he first country to introduce it was The Netherlands, followed shortly by Spain. Yes, Spain. That former backward dictatorship run by the Catholic Church. When I learned about that, my face almost fell off. But then again, given what the Catholic Church did to Spain, I'm not surprised that most Spaniards are quite cross at them.


User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8492 posts, RR: 14
Reply 43, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 5 days 4 hours ago) and read 2896 times:
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Close Doc, but you missed Belgium (2003) after the Netherlands but before Spain.


Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18704 posts, RR: 58
Reply 44, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 21 hours ago) and read 2852 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 41):
I don't see how it can be any clearer than that and I - non-believer - wonder that he has the temerity to put words in God's mouth.

I don't wonder at all. Remember, he doesn't have to tell the truth. He can lie through his teeth as long as his followers believe him. I bet that none of them have ever read the Bible.

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 43):
Close Doc, but you missed Belgium (2003) after the Netherlands but before Spain.

I stand corrected. I do believe Spain also went in 2003, but after Belgium.


User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8492 posts, RR: 14
Reply 45, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2834 times:
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Quoting DocLightning (Reply 44):
I do believe Spain also went in 2003, but after Belgium.

Sorry Doc, 2005 for Spain. I was actually living in Belgium at the time and felt quite pleased that it was introduced on my birthday that year.



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlineMD11Engineer From Germany, joined Oct 2003, 13800 posts, RR: 63
Reply 46, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2825 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 33):
Quoting MD11Engineer (Reply 32):
About 20 years ago I knew a gay Australian, who was living in Berlin since many years and working as a nurse. He told me that he came from rural New South Wales and that he (and his friends) got regularly beaten up by the country bumpkins.

I wonder where he lived? I know there is poofter bashing in Australia, but it's never happened to me.

I make no secret of my sexuality, never have, and I wear a diamond earring (which is immediately suspicious to some - LOL). I've been going to rural/outback Australia since 1974, to some of the roughest and most remote places there are - l love the real outback - and I've never had problems. Mostly, I've encountered a lot of kindness and friendship.

Once, in Lightning Ridge (rough, redneck, opal mining) I was called a fucken poofter in a pub. I've been called worse than that in my life, so I laughed and said "true"- and nothing came of it.

Here in NZ I live in a tiny fishing village in the woop-woop and I have been completely embraced by the locals. If I need help I just have to call and after a really bad storm, a dozen local blokes will ring me to see if I'm okay and if I need anything. I have my allotted role as the "exotic outsider", and on special village occasions I have to wear a flash tie and make the speech or give out the prizes.

mariner

Sorry, my bad, I last met the bloke back in 1990. He was not from NSW, but from rural Queensland.

Jan


User currently offlinebueb0g From United Kingdom, joined Jul 2010, 623 posts, RR: 0
Reply 47, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2827 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 40):

You're right I got confused somehow, even though I read about it a couple weeks ago.

The whole of the UK plans to introduce gay marriage by 2015.



Roger roger, what's our vector, victor?
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 18704 posts, RR: 58
Reply 48, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 4 days 9 hours ago) and read 2787 times:

Quoting kiwiandrew (Reply 45):
Sorry Doc, 2005 for Spain. I was actually living in Belgium at the time and felt quite pleased that it was introduced on my birthday that year.

July 3, 2005. For some reason I had July 5, 2003 stuck in my head. There ya go.


User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24640 posts, RR: 86
Reply 49, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 9 hours ago) and read 2713 times:
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And now - Vietnam?

http://www.npr.org/2012/07/29/157561...iders-legalizing-same-sex-marriage

"Vietnam Considers Legalizing Same-Sex Marriage"

Knock me down with a feather.

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlinetexan From New Zealand, joined Dec 2003, 4264 posts, RR: 52
Reply 50, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 2684 times:

John Key has stated he plans to support the measure throughout.

Quote:
[T]his morning Key told RadioLive there was no point voting for something in the first reading if you weren't planning on supporting it.

"If you're very unlikely to vote for it don't vote for it in the first reading."

He agreed that meant he was likely to give the bill his continued support.

"My view has been that if two gay people want to get married I can't see why it would undermine my marriage with Bronagh. I just don't see how that logic applies."

Texan



"I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library."
User currently offlinekiwiandrew From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 8492 posts, RR: 14
Reply 51, posted (1 year 8 months 3 weeks 2 days 20 hours ago) and read 2647 times:
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Quoting texan (Reply 50):
John Key has stated he plans to support the measure throughout.

I just about had to pinch myself to see whether I was awake when I saw that. I have been back in NZ for about two and half years, and in that time I don't think I have ever seen him stand up on an issue. Equivocation seems to be his normal style, so this was a real departure for him. Still, there is a long way to go, so I won't start celebrating yet. He has always shown about as much backbone as a banana when it comes to anything remotely controversial and I wouldn't be surprised to see him bend back and forth a few times on this issue before it is all done.



Moderation in all things ... including moderation ;-)
User currently offlinemariner From New Zealand, joined Nov 2001, 24640 posts, RR: 86
Reply 52, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 19 hours ago) and read 2432 times:
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And now Tasmania is in on the act:

http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/pol...w-gay-marriage-20120804-23m6n.html

"Tasmania may become the first Australian state to legalise gay marriage - possibly as early as this year - after Premier Lara Giddings today vowed Labor would legislate it in this term of government."

This is an odd one, because marriage law in Australia is controlled by the Federal government these days, not the state.

But apparently, Tasmania has found a loophole:

"Because federal marriage laws were amended by former Prime Minister John Howard in 2004 to define marriage as between a man and a woman, it was possible for states to argue that the federal marriage law did not cover same-sex couples - and they were free to legislate for them.

"It basically means regardless of what happens federally, same sex couples will likely to able to marry on Australian soil, possibly as early as this year," he said.

In a statement to the Tasmanian Gay and Lesbian Rights Group, constitutional law expert, Professor George Williams, said the power to make marriage laws is shared by the Commonwealth and the states.

He told them if the Commonwealth refuses to make a law for one type of marriage - in this case same-sex marriage - that power falls to the states."


It would be interesting to see what the High Court makes of that.  

mariner



aeternum nauta
User currently offlineQuokkas From , joined Dec 1969, posts, RR:
Reply 53, posted (1 year 8 months 2 weeks 4 days 18 hours ago) and read 2421 times:

Quoting mariner (Reply 52):
It would be interesting to see what the High Court makes of that.

It certainly would be.

Marriage is one of the areas where the Commonwealth has power to make laws under s. 51 of the Constitution. The States may also make laws in the same areas but where there is any inconsistency between the two, the Constitution provides that the Commonwealth law prevails to the extent of the inconsistency.

While welcoming the announcement by Tasmania's Premier it is unfortunate that the Prime Minister is known to be opposed. Gillard isn't married to her (male) partner and sees no need for same sex couples to marry. In other words, she is free to choose but others are not able to make the same choice.

While Gillard has said that she would allow a free vote, the leader of the Opposition has said that his party would vote against any proposal to change the law.


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