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Microsoft’s Lost Decade  
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12559 posts, RR: 25
Posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 5 hours ago) and read 4613 times:

http://www.vanityfair.com/business/2.../microsoft-lost-mojo-steve-ballmer

Pretty damning stuff, top to bottom:

Quote:

The story of Microsoft’s lost decade could serve as a business-school case study on the pitfalls of success. For what began as a lean competition machine led by young visionaries of unparalleled talent has mutated into something bloated and bureaucracy-laden, with an internal culture that unintentionally rewards managers who strangle innovative ideas that might threaten the established order of things.

Lots of talk of a ranking system that lead to employees sabotaging other employees, and after the Internet Bust, huge resentment between the boomer haves and buster have-nots, and stodgy managers, starting with Gates and Ballmer, making everything fit into the Windows/Office framework. Points out that the iPhone didn't exist as a product five years ago, but now brings in more revenue than every Microsoft product combined, yet Microsoft had quite a lead in handhelds with Windows CE, and had an e-book project in 1998 that could have been a world beater.


Inspiration, move me brightly!
82 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineAesma From France, joined Nov 2009, 6656 posts, RR: 11
Reply 1, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 3 hours ago) and read 4555 times:

Microsoft even invented the smartphone more than 10 years ago (I had one) but didn't believe in it enough.


New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21462 posts, RR: 53
Reply 2, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4549 times:

Quoting Aesma (Reply 1):
Microsoft even invented the smartphone more than 10 years ago (I had one) but didn't believe in it enough.

No, the first products approaching a smartphone came from other sources even prior to that, notably the Nokia Communicator series.

Microsoft just attempted to steamroll what they saw emerging in the market already with their standard Windows UI. And until the iPhone and iPad finally proved them wrong to an extent even they could no longer ignore, they kept trying to ram the same UI into every category by force.

Even Windows 8 is yet another attempt at that same strategy, just modified by saddling the regular Windows UI with am additional, but still separate touch UI.

They've never realized that some caytegories may actually need to be different for valid reasons – they are still chasing Gate's old obsession with forcing Windows into absolutely everything, with force if necessary.

We'll see whether the latest attempt will fare any better than all its predecessors.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12559 posts, RR: 25
Reply 3, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days 2 hours ago) and read 4542 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 2):
Microsoft just attempted to steamroll what they saw emerging in the market already with their standard Windows UI. And until the iPhone and iPad finally proved them wrong to an extent even they could no longer ignore, they kept trying to ram the same UI into every category by force.

One point the article makes is that there were many within M$ who wanted to take a non-Windows approach first for the e-reader and then WinCE, but were smacked down by internal heavyweights who had made their fame with Windows, and indeed in the case of the e-reader, the person was Gates himself.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21462 posts, RR: 53
Reply 4, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 2 days ago) and read 4509 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 3):
One point the article makes is that there were many within M$ who wanted to take a non-Windows approach first for the e-reader and then WinCE, but were smacked down by internal heavyweights who had made their fame with Windows, and indeed in the case of the e-reader, the person was Gates himself.

Yes, the dysfunction comes from the top and it always has, not just since Ballmer came into control.


User currently onlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8276 posts, RR: 8
Reply 5, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 21 hours ago) and read 4444 times:

I believe that the failures of MS has been more public because Steve Jobs returned to Apple and started innovating again. And Jobs had some really talented people like Jonathan Ive who he really word well with.

Toss in the OS work Jobs had done with NeXT and MS had a competitor who was going to blow past them - and no one at MS really seemed to understand that.

IMO MS would not have had a lost decade if Apple had not had an incredible decade. That has pushed so much in tech today and MS is still looking around like a lost kid.


User currently offlineokie From United States of America, joined Jul 2003, 3044 posts, RR: 3
Reply 6, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 20 hours ago) and read 4425 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 5):
I believe that the failures of MS has been more public because Steve Jobs returned to Apple and started innovating again. And Jobs had some really talented people like Jonathan Ive who he really word well with.

If you read the article then you would know that Apple fell into the same debacle that MS is in. They were just lucky in the sense that they got Jobs back. If you followed Apple you would know that he was constantly at odds with the management staff. They were just like MS busy having meetings, creating paper work, pitting the employees against each other and discouraging progress. (kind of like our government)
Jobs was an innovator and created markets by encouraging and supporting ideas which was a 180 degrees out of phase with the management ideals when he returned.

The article was an interesting read, particular note about CE and Longhorn which were speculated (leaked) about their innovation in publications during their development stages but never got off the campus so to speak. I guess we know why now.

Okie


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12559 posts, RR: 25
Reply 7, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4354 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 5):
Toss in the OS work Jobs had done with NeXT and MS had a competitor who was going to blow past them - and no one at MS really seemed to understand that.

One of M$'s strengths was that the hardware was growing faster than the software, and M$ was in the position of just keeping up with it.

NeXT was in the position where the software was really more than the HW could deal with, and they had to wait for the HW to grow.

The hardware really didn't catch up till Apple made the move to Intel hardware, IMHO.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 5):
IMO MS would not have had a lost decade if Apple had not had an incredible decade. That has pushed so much in tech today and MS is still looking around like a lost kid.

I think the point is that M$ would be quite happy if the world had not changed at all over the last decade. They had people in-house who saw a lot of the same trends as did M$, but those people weren't empowered to do anything about it.

Also M$ has had great amounts of cash available to do acquisitions etc once a trend/threat was spotted, and have done very poorly at that too. Note the comments about Bing chewing through $8B with naught to show for it. Zune is a similar story, WinCE -> WinPhone another.

This just isn't the same company that ate IBM's lunch during the MS-DOS/Win3/Win95 days. It took big brass cajones for M$ to take IBM's money for OS2 work while they were in the background coming up with Win3. Those cajones are long gone.

Reading Gate's lement that he finally realized Zune would not catch up to the iPod because they totally whiffed on the music store part was pathetic. All the money poured into MSN is another sad exercise.

They actually wiffed on the internet itself. Their strategy was LanMan to compete with Novell and MSN to compete with AOL. They didn't see the Internet coming at all. They were just lucky that the key bits and pieces (TCP/IP stack, browser, web server) were something that could be acquired easily. Keep in mind that TCP/IP was not even enabled by default in Win95!

Quoting okie (Reply 6):
The article was an interesting read, particular note about CE and Longhorn which were speculated (leaked) about their innovation in publications during their development stages but never got off the campus so to speak.

Yes, it's remarkable that they really have not updated their core technology in a decade.

Win7 isn't much of an upgrade on Win2k if you look at the tech.

It took them two tries (Vista, 7) to get Aero to be workable at all.

It seems we wil never see WinFS.

Seems M$ will just grind on with Windows, Office and Exchange as flagship products.

It seems to me all three of these can be undermined if not replaced or just bypassed.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21462 posts, RR: 53
Reply 8, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 13 hours ago) and read 4341 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 7):
This just isn't the same company that ate IBM's lunch during the MS-DOS/Win3/Win95 days. It took big brass cajones for M$ to take IBM's money for OS2 work while they were in the background coming up with Win3. Those cajones are long gone.

That was more a huge amount of luck when IBM totally failed to grasp what was going on when they left the software side to MS than a brilliant achievement of MS. Without IBM's crucial mistake MS would never been able to ascend to the same position. Had the IBM management at the time understood that the PC was not just some irrelevant and temporary stopgap product as they thought, but the mainstream of the future, things would have turned out very differently (even the hardware would have looked differently).


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12559 posts, RR: 25
Reply 9, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4327 times:

Quoting Klaus (Reply 8):
That was more a huge amount of luck when IBM totally failed to grasp what was going on when they left the software side to MS than a brilliant achievement of MS.
Quoting Klaus (Reply 8):
Had the IBM management at the time understood that the PC was not just some irrelevant and temporary stopgap product as they thought, but the mainstream of the future, things would have turned out very differently (even the hardware would have looked differently).

I'd say it was that IBM's management was institutionally incapable of accepting that the mainstream future might be based on the PC, just as M$ management was not capable of seeing the role that the portable device and the music/movie/app store would have. For the decision makers, M$ was all about PCs and shrink-wrapped software just like IBM was all about multi-million dollar mainframes.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21462 posts, RR: 53
Reply 10, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 12 hours ago) and read 4308 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):
I'd say it was that IBM's management was institutionally incapable of accepting that the mainstream future might be based on the PC, just as M$ management was not capable of seeing the role that the portable device and the music/movie/app store would have.

Goup think limited to the status quo in both cases.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 9):
For the decision makers, M$ was all about PCs and shrink-wrapped software just like IBM was all about multi-million dollar mainframes.

IBM was so preoccupied with keeping the PC crippled enough to not endanger their mainframe business that they never understood the implications.

Not too different from MS being so obsessed with Windows and Office that they were incapable of understanding how the market shifted under them.


User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2407 posts, RR: 24
Reply 11, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day 1 hour ago) and read 4208 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 5):
and MS is still looking around like a lost kid.

I disagree with this. WP8 and Windows 8 are both great products and in my opinion more user friendly than anything else on the market. WP works very well and unlike iOS and Android, it doesn't need a lot of hardware to run smoothly. Even a single core WP can compete with a quadcore SGSIII let alone any iPhone device. This demonstrates how well MS has programmed WP.

I cannot wait for WP8.

By the way, try to search for the 'smoked by windows phone' campaign. WP is faster at most things compared to any other device on the market. MS are clearly on their way back.


User currently offlineelbandgeek From United States of America, joined Jun 2008, 756 posts, RR: 0
Reply 12, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 1 day ago) and read 4179 times:

Why do people make such a big deal out of all of this?
Honestly, no one is claiming Microsoft hasn't had problems in the last decade adjusting to the changing industry. Why is everyone so insistent on beating a dead horse. The fact is the changes they've made the last year or so have been remarkable and with Windows 8, Windows Phone, and Xbox they are offering unprecedented integration between all their core products but so many people are so far up Apple's (and Google's) ass that they go out of their way to trash anything and everything Microsoft does. At best they'll give backhanded praise. At worst they will say that every single thing they do is crap which no backing. So many people want them to fail because they resent things they did 15 years ago but have no problems supporting Apple and Google who are arguably as "evil" now as Microsoft was back then.


User currently onlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8276 posts, RR: 8
Reply 13, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 21 hours ago) and read 4138 times:

Quoting okie (Reply 6):
Jobs was an innovator and created markets by encouraging and supporting ideas which was a 180 degrees out of phase with the management ideals when he returned.

Which is why senior management knew they need to get Jobs back. Jobs was a unique person in the tech industry. Looking at his efforts to bring about the original Mac you can see an innovator who could see where the market "could be" with products like the Mac.

It took Apple a while (almost too long) to understand that they needed Jobs back. Even then the Board was wary of some of the stuff Jobs did.

I believe that Jobs would agree that his time outside of Apple was important for his successes when he returned. It added some business skills as well as developing the core enhancements to Unix that would end up as OS X.

After Jobs returned the comparison of Apple and MS took an entirely new turn. Starting with the first iMac Apple planted the seeds that would move the company forward. Reading the book on Jobs you see the man and the company moving forward with new approaches. There were MP3 players before the iPod, but the iPod was the result of far more focus on the customer than the competition.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 11):
WP8 and Windows 8 are both great products and in my opinion more user friendly than anything else on the market.

Windows got lost with Longhorn. I'm happy that the company is delivering a good product now, but they did open the door at the consumer level for the competition and companies like Apple have taken advantage of MS's slip.

We'll see how fast corporate adoption is, That is the core issue for MS these days as the consumer market has really been split.

Apple doesn't have that level of IT demands. A lot of companies buy enough Macs to keep their iOS apps current. The odd thing here is that there will be a lot of strong MS shops that now have iOS and Android sections simply to serve customers.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 11):
WP is faster at most things compared to any other device on the market

That's nice, but pulling customers away from their iOS or Android devices is tougher than having a short time speed advantage.


User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21462 posts, RR: 53
Reply 14, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 19 hours ago) and read 4118 times:

Quoting elbandgeek (Reply 12):
The fact is the changes they've made the last year or so have been remarkable and with Windows 8, Windows Phone, and Xbox they are offering unprecedented integration between all their core products but so many people are so far up Apple's (and Google's) ass that they go out of their way to trash anything and everything Microsoft does.

Microsoft's problem is that everything they do is conceptualized starting from the sales and marketing perspective. From that perspective they have always decreed that their Windows advantage was to be leveraged into the other markets and that that would automatically confer them the same kind of dominance there as well.

Even Windows 8 is designed by marketing and sales, not by actual product people – it is a forced marriage of technically distinct platforms which is forced on users on their existing platform in the hope that that would provide the intended leverage. It is not designed as the greatest possible product and then marketed after that (the way Apple is operating) but it is a marketing concept from top to bottom with actual real-life usability just being an afterthought.

That kind of thing rarely ends well, particularly when there are viable alternatives.

We'll see how it goes.


User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2407 posts, RR: 24
Reply 15, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 15 hours ago) and read 4085 times:

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 13):
Windows got lost with Longhorn. I'm happy that the company is delivering a good product now, but they did open the door at the consumer level for the competition and companies like Apple have taken advantage of MS's slip.

Are you talking about Windows Vista? In that case I agree with you.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 13):
That's nice, but pulling customers away from their iOS or Android devices is tougher than having a short time speed advantage.

True. Will be interesting to see how it all goes. While WP7.5 not seems 100% mature, WP8 looks very good and I am sure that it will become a strong competitor to Android and iOS within 1-2 years. It definitely deserves it. MS cannot afford to lose this market, so they will invest as much money in WP as needed. That is the price of being late though.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12559 posts, RR: 25
Reply 16, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 11 hours ago) and read 4046 times:

Quoting elbandgeek (Reply 12):
The fact is the changes they've made the last year or so have been remarkable and with Windows 8, Windows Phone, and Xbox they are offering unprecedented integration between all their core products but so many people are so far up Apple's (and Google's) ass that they go out of their way to trash anything and everything Microsoft does.

Right, let's just ignore nine out of the last ten years, presuming the upcoming year comes up as rosy as you seem to think it will.

I think if you read the article (all six pages of it) that it is far from a shallow Windows-bashing exercise.

Funny you should bring up Xbox. Has that been a good strategic move? They find themselves locked into a cutthroat business competing with Sony and Nintendo, losing money on the hardware and hoping to make it up on games and subscription fees. They have a presence in the living room, but it seems they haven't been able to do that much with it.

Now, if they had done something that would capture the living room, I'd be more impressed.

Media center PCs seemed to be promising, but the idea of having a noisy PC or paying the $$$ for a premium quieter PC was off-putting, and then not having much confidence in the usability and stability and maintenance issues related to the beast kept me away.

If M$ could get their tech embedded in the TV, so it's the first thing you see when the TV goes on, then they'd have something.

Quoting Klaus (Reply 14):
Even Windows 8 is designed by marketing and sales, not by actual product people – it is a forced marriage of technically distinct platforms which is forced on users on their existing platform in the hope that that would provide the intended leverage. It is not designed as the greatest possible product and then marketed after that (the way Apple is operating) but it is a marketing concept from top to bottom with actual real-life usability just being an afterthought.

To a large extent, Windows 7 is Windows 95 with nicer skins, especially as it relates to user experience.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 15):
Quoting Ken777 (Reply 13):
Windows got lost with Longhorn. I'm happy that the company is delivering a good product now, but they did open the door at the consumer level for the competition and companies like Apple have taken advantage of MS's slip.

Are you talking about Windows Vista? In that case I agree with you.

Vista is a subset of what Longhorn was supposed to be.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 15):
True. Will be interesting to see how it all goes. While WP7.5 not seems 100% mature, WP8 looks very good and I am sure that it will become a strong competitor to Android and iOS within 1-2 years. It definitely deserves it. MS cannot afford to lose this market, so they will invest as much money in WP as needed. That is the price of being late though.

A main point of the article is that money isn't the issue. M$ has had the money all along. They were even developing many of the right technologies, but the system would squelch anything that didn't fit into the Windows/PC framework. Now they are in the position of having to play serious catchup against very strong and entrenched competition.

The real question is what products are they working on today that could dominate an entire market segment much like the iPod, iPad and iPhone have?



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2407 posts, RR: 24
Reply 17, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 4029 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 16):
The real question is what products are they working on today that could dominate an entire market segment much like the iPod, iPad and iPhone have?

Well, they still have a solid grip in the laptop/desktop market. With hardware manufacturers producing computers in different price ranges, MS will have the advantage to reach out to those that are not able to pay the premium price for an Apple computer. Another advantage is all the existing software for Windows, including MS Office.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12559 posts, RR: 25
Reply 18, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 10 hours ago) and read 4013 times:

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 17):
Well, they still have a solid grip in the laptop/desktop market. With hardware manufacturers producing computers in different price ranges, MS will have the advantage to reach out to those that are not able to pay the premium price for an Apple computer. Another advantage is all the existing software for Windows, including MS Office.

It's not clear what their fate is in this space, either.

It's clear they have a lot of inertia around Office, Exchange, Windows apps, etc but all can be undermined by the move to web/cloud apps, Andriod and free/open OSes, etc.

It doesn't seem to be a growth space to me, just a cash cow that has some interesting points of vulnerability.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21462 posts, RR: 53
Reply 19, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 9 hours ago) and read 4007 times:

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 17):
With hardware manufacturers producing computers in different price ranges, MS will have the advantage to reach out to those that are not able to pay the premium price for an Apple computer.

The flip side is that Microsoft is increasingly relegated to the bargain segment where it is difficult to achieve decent margins on the one hand and which tends to be the rear guard development-wise as well.

It is hard or impossible to lead the market just from there.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 17):
Another advantage is all the existing software for Windows, including MS Office.

Office software is more and more becoming a commodity, with fewer and fewer people actually needing the MS Office package and alternatives gaining ground, however incrementally. But this is a receding product range as well.

Other than that? Games? Yes, but that's not a sure bet either. Game producers are increasingly looking at other platforms as well.


User currently onlineKen777 From United States of America, joined Mar 2004, 8276 posts, RR: 8
Reply 20, posted (2 years 1 month 3 weeks 7 hours ago) and read 3976 times:

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 15):
Are you talking about Windows Vista? In that case I agree with you.

No, I'm talking about something that came before Vista. Well, sort of "came" as it could not be brought to market, wasting years.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 15):
WP8 looks very good and I am sure that it will become a strong competitor to Android and iOS within 1-2 years.

But where will iOS and Android be in 1 - 2 years?

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 15):
MS cannot afford to lose this market, so they will invest as much money in WP as needed.

It does take money for MS to get there, but it also takes some talented people, especially at the top. I'd also note that the main partner MS has on the mobile side (Nokia) has just shut it's last domestic factory.

Quoting AirPacific747 (Reply 17):
Another advantage is all the existing software for Windows, including MS Office.

Office is pretty much a commodity now. I first use Word and Excel in the mid-80s on a Mac. Took MS until '95 to even come close. Now days the competition is from free to $20 per module. Not a good sign for MS, just as Apple's $20 price for a full new OS X that can be used for the whole family. Not a family Pack, just $20 for the entire family. Tough competition out there for MS.


User currently offlineUnited Airline From Hong Kong, joined Jan 2001, 9169 posts, RR: 15
Reply 21, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 16 hours ago) and read 3875 times:

Why do people keep on saying that Microsoft had a lost decade? Well it is still bigger than Apple etc. I bet they are still the largest IT company on earth?

User currently offlineKlaus From Germany, joined Jul 2001, 21462 posts, RR: 53
Reply 22, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 14 hours ago) and read 3857 times:

Quoting United Airline (Reply 21):
Why do people keep on saying that Microsoft had a lost decade? Well it is still bigger than Apple etc. I bet they are still the largest IT company on earth?

No, they have already fallen behind Apple in most respects: market capitalizatin, revenue, profits, growth, market share in the mobile space etc. are all below Apple. Microsoft has been in a decade-long stagnation, not just, but also with regard to its share price.

http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=compare+microsoft+apple


There is effectively one major criterion where they still indubitably in the lead: The number of Windows installations by far exceeds the number of Mac OS installations. Unfortunately for Microsoft that is not a growth market any more and the pressure on their margins is increasing since they are increasingly losing the top of the market where the margins are good.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12559 posts, RR: 25
Reply 23, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 13 hours ago) and read 3845 times:

Quoting United Airline (Reply 21):
Why do people keep on saying that Microsoft had a lost decade? Well it is still bigger than Apple etc. I bet they are still the largest IT company on earth?

The article is pretty clear; it's far from a shallow cheap shot at M$. M$ really has not opened any new markets in the last decade, and is stagnating in the the markets they dominate, and shows no signs of getting back on the trajectory they used to have, and that Apple is currently on.



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineAirPacific747 From Denmark, joined May 2008, 2407 posts, RR: 24
Reply 24, posted (2 years 1 month 2 weeks 6 days 12 hours ago) and read 3839 times:

Quoting Revelation (Reply 18):
It doesn't seem to be a growth space to me, just a cash cow that has some interesting points of vulnerability.
Quoting Klaus (Reply 19):
Office software is more and more becoming a commodity, with fewer and fewer people actually needing the MS Office package and alternatives gaining ground, however incrementally. But this is a receding product range as well.

I agree. But let's see how Windows 8 will be received. It will be interesting to see if their new tablet Surface can rival the iPad and if W8 becomes succesful. It's hard to predict before W8 is actually released.

Quoting Ken777 (Reply 20):
But where will iOS and Android be in 1 - 2 years?

But where will WP be in 1-2 years?


25 Revelation : Is there a lot of mystery around that? I think the enthusiasts will load it (many have loaded the previews), and the press will chatter and there may
26 AirPacific747 : Perhaps not. But is there a compelling reason to switch to Android or iOS instead? For the same reason you could ask if there is a compelling reason
27 Revelation : Most of Android or iOS incremental income is coming from new devices (mostly phones and tablets) and their app/media stores, whereas M$ at this point
28 Klaus : The issue with Windows 8 is that it is only somewhat attractive if there is really compelling tablet hardware which actually manages to be a good tabl
29 AirPacific747 : Again, all I can say is that we have to wait and see how the release goes. But you have some valid points of course.
30 redflyer : One reason for management getting entrenched in a product line and not being able to see beyond their nose is that the company has usually invested a
31 Post contains images Ken777 : Surface will be going against both Apple's iPad and Android companies. And, of course, the range of software available. Coming out of Beta? Sorry. Sh
32 Klaus : The direct threat of that plus the related incisions by the EU Commission effectively crippled Microsoft's capability to simply force itself into fur
33 Flighty : This is very old news. MS has a healthy business and lately, has executed software well. I find their recent software a pleasure to use. Ten years ago
34 United Airline : Will they regain their former glory? Microsoft is still larger in terms of assets right? Bill Gates is so much richer than late Steve Jobs though
35 Klaus : Stay tuned. Although I've never seen much "glory" at Microsoft before to begin with. I don't think so. Gates obsessed about money and power. Jobs obs
36 Post contains images tugger : Honestly? No one actually knows.... You know the saying (statement actually): "Past performance is not an indicator of future success." Well that's a
37 United Airline : Really? It was the largest in terms of everything. Total asset wise are they still bigger? True
38 Post contains links Klaus : In my book "glory" has to do with doing glorious things, not with just being larger. Nope. Wolfram Alpha says $121.3B for Microsoft, $162.9B for Appl
39 Post contains links AirPacific747 : Not really true, and you know it. More like: Gates obsessed with helping other people and making a difference Jobs: Only cares about his own ego. htt
40 Revelation : That's only a recent phenomena. Microsoft in its heydey was certainly not obsessed with helping people, they were obsessed with crushing competitors
41 Post contains images Klaus : Steve Jobs is dead, in case you missed it. But of course you're free to speculate about what he'd do in a presumable afterlife. What Bill and Melinda
42 Revelation : From what I've read, this is indeed true. And as above, I wonder what some M$ products like Media Center PC would have been like if M$ had spent the
43 AirPacific747 : So? How is that relevant? If the foundation was founded yesterday, then what? Is Apple any different today? They sue every competitor as much as poss
44 Revelation : Suppose I was a self-centered greedy jerk who ruthlessly acquired wealth and power for 45 years and once I had it all I spent five years giving it aw
45 Klaus : No, they don't. There are no suits against Microsoft, for instance, in keeping with the topic. Which has to do with the fact that Microsoft has taken
46 AirPacific747 : This would be relevant in the comparison between Gates and Jobs if it wasn't because Jobs was even greedier. ... while they steal from others. Just a
47 redflyer : As I said, MS is just playing catch-up to Apple, Google, and Samsung. None of the products they've showcased are anything at all outside of the curre
48 Klaus : The numbers speak strongly against that. Jobs worked at Apple effectively as a hobby. His (by comparison to Gates moderate) wealth had nothing to do
49 Revelation : Then I guess there will be nothing to fear from the courts. You've just shown you have nothing constructive to add other than insults. Feel free to l
50 MSPNWA : Lost decade? Well, maybe to some. To me the article is a non-starter. Microsoft never has been a major product innovator, so they shouldn't be getting
51 United Airline : Will they regain their former glory? Anything they can/should do?
52 Revelation : It's interesting to me that they are playing catch-up in terms of app store. I'm not a user of Xbox, but one would think that Xbox gave them the earl
53 redflyer : I'm not sure I agree with this. Wasn't Windows essentially replicating what Apple had already done with the Mac with regards to a GUI and iconic repr
54 Post contains images Ken777 : I believe that he lurkes around here quite often. That was only after e became the richest man in the world and was found guilty of monopoly abuse. I
55 Revelation : I see all your points, but yes, at some level everything rips something else off. The proto-Office apps were rip offs of many similar apps, but still
56 Ken777 : Apple worked out a financial deal to have a day with PARC so there was no "stealing" it. Apple also invested a lot of resources to bring the Mac to m
57 TheRedBaron : I hate MS since the CPM steal debacle (yes I am that Old). Also I won't hide the fact that I think MS is a company that has made the innovation dead f
58 redflyer : They are not ignorant. They have just been there too long and they can't see beyond their noses. It is a very classic corporate stage. There are not
59 nighthawk : I disagree - I think Windows 8 is going to be a major game changer, either for good or for worse. If it it succeeds, then a developer will be able to
60 David L : That's what worries me. They claim it can be used in "classic" mode. If that's well implemented then I'll be on board and I might consider a Win8 pho
61 Post contains images Revelation : Interestingly enough, even though Microsoft ate IBM's lunch in the PC space, IBM as a company has been going gangbusters since the 1920s or so, excep
62 Post contains images David L : As a former Amiga user, I'm well aware of that. However, given that the Amiga is gone, I've adapted. I accept that Apple "just works" but it doesn't
63 Klaus : That's exactly what I love about the Mac: It's a full-blown Unix with all its opportunities for tinkering plus many additional possibilities on the M
64 Post contains images Revelation : Sorry for the miscommunication, indeed I was talking about the Metro mode. Both my own laptop and my employer's laptop that I get to use are on W7. I
65 Post contains images David L : I'm even deeper into the Twighlight Zone. Are you saying Windows won't let you tinker? Or do you think I didn't like to tinker with the Amiga (you'd
66 Post contains links Acheron : Refusing to pay child support and requiring a court order to make you do it, for one. You make it sound like that was all the money he earned and tha
67 redflyer : In general I agree with what you say about imitation being a part of the tech business. But I don't for a moment think Apple is suing others as a sub
68 Revelation : I suppose one could see it that way, but Apple seems to be extremely aggressive in filing in many different venues and in demanding injunctions to st
69 Acheron : You are right, that's usually the case in most situations like this, but Apple showed their intetions by asking for $2.47 billions to $2.88 billions
70 Post contains images Ken777 : Run iLife for starters. That is a pretty effective suite that comes free with a Mac Apple understands that design counts. Look at how well they have
71 Revelation : Ok, if it's so blatant, how come the judge didn't give Apple the summary judgement (er, injunction relief) that they sought? It seems Apple is shooti
72 Post contains images redflyer : Ok, you both bring up some good comments. I was originally talking to the myriad of patent challenges that one normally sees vs. what Apple is curren
73 Revelation : I agree a lot of copying has gone on, and it seems other posters here agree with that too. The real question is how much (if any) will be found to be
74 Ken777 : The judge didn't give Apple a verdict on the spot, but she did mention that she may well review Samsung's actions "later". In other words she did not
75 Post contains links and images Acheron : Not only that, a Judge in the UK ruled that the Galaxy Tab didn't really infringe upon Apple's iPad related patents. Also, Judge Posner dismissed the
76 Ken777 : That's what the courtrooms are for. IIRC, if you have intellectual property you must defend your rights, or you loose them. Apple is defending their
77 Revelation : If that's your way of saying that juries are a crap shoot, then we agree. I feel Apple's case has its merits, but I'm also pretty sure Apple also kno
78 Post contains links Acheron : Yes, but starting lawsuits based on shaky patents might cause you to lose them, anyway. Pretty much all iPhone features predate it in one shape or an
79 Ken777 : IIRC Apple had filed for 200+ patents off of the iPhone development. And the company seems to be getting those applications approved. Look at HP's ef
80 Acheron : Seeing how most of Apple lawsuits, particularly thouse against Samsung and Motorola seems to be based around weak patents of rectangles with round co
81 Revelation : And yet, as you have been pointing out, have yet to defend them successfully.
82 Post contains images redflyer : I completely (but with total respect) disagree with that comment. The iPhone is not unique ANYMORE, but when it first came out it was incredibly uniq
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