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600 Mil. Without Power As India Power Grid Fails.  
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27232 posts, RR: 60
Posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 22 hours ago) and read 4247 times:

Quite a massive scale and seems to be getting worse. I wonder how they can get themselves out of this mess. Seems like they need to invest alot in their power grid or face social/economic issues.

India's power grid crisis deepens

A massive power breakdown has hit India for a second day running, leaving more than half the country without power.

Officials said the northern and eastern grids had both collapsed. All Delhi metro services have been halted and staff are trying to evacuate trains.

Monday's power failure caused severe disruption and travel chaos across northern India.

It was unclear why the grid collapsed but the power minister said some states may have been taking too much power.

Sushil Kumar Shinde said power would be restored in "another 90 minutes".

After Monday's cut, engineers managed to restore electricity to the northern grid by the evening, but at 01:05pm (0735 GMT) on Tuesday, it collapsed again.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-19060279

72 replies: All unread, showing first 25:
 
User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12840 posts, RR: 25
Reply 1, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4217 times:

Quite unfortunate. I hope power is restored swiftly!


Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7651 posts, RR: 4
Reply 2, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4204 times:

woops maybe India could have spend some of the billion's they waste on defense on basic infrastructure for the benefit of everyone.

User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12840 posts, RR: 25
Reply 3, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 21 hours ago) and read 4197 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 2):
woops maybe India could have spend some of the billion's they waste on defense on basic infrastructure for the benefit of everyone.

Personally, I would have gone with the millions that Air India spends on parked 777s, but to each his own...



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4903 posts, RR: 16
Reply 4, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 16 hours ago) and read 4123 times:

Cascading blackouts can happen and have happened in the most advanced of countries including the USA with the great Northeast Blackout a few years ago. Grids can become unstable under certain load levels and switches start tripping.

Anyhow, a shout-out to all a.netters affected - hang in there, keep cool and you can always tell your kids about being part of the perhaps the biggest ever power outage in history.


User currently offlineB2443 From United States of America, joined Jul 2004, 703 posts, RR: 0
Reply 5, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4070 times:

Quoting comorin (Reply 4):
Anyhow, a shout-out to all a.netters affected - hang in there, keep cool and you can always tell your kids about being part of the perhaps the biggest ever power outage in history.

Or tell you kids not to worry because you are a democracy and you can vote out the politicians.


User currently offlineRevelation From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 12840 posts, RR: 25
Reply 6, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 15 hours ago) and read 4063 times:

Quoting comorin (Reply 4):
Anyhow, a shout-out to all a.netters affected - hang in there, keep cool and you can always tell your kids about being part of the perhaps the biggest ever power outage in history.

More than half the population of the world's most populous nation with nothing better to do than procreate - let's see what happens 9 months from now!



Inspiration, move me brightly!
User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20191 posts, RR: 59
Reply 7, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3996 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 2):
woops maybe India could have spend some of the billion's they waste on defense on basic infrastructure for the benefit of everyone.

A similar event happened in the US in 2003, knocking out power from New York City all the way to Detroit. Affected Toronto, too. Maybe we should take the same critique?

Quoting comorin (Reply 4):
Anyhow, a shout-out to all a.netters affected

Who, of course, can't hear you until it's over.   

Quoting comorin (Reply 4):
Cascading blackouts can happen and have happened in the most advanced of countries including the USA with the great Northeast Blackout a few years ago. Grids can become unstable under certain load levels and switches start tripping.

And the CA rolling blackouts in the late 1990's. Sat on a chairlift for an hour, I did. Three towers from the top.


User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6644 posts, RR: 6
Reply 8, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3992 times:
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Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):

And the CA rolling blackouts in the late 1990's. Sat on a chairlift for an hour, I did. Three towers from the top.

You can thank the traders at ENRON for that one!



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineKiwiRob From New Zealand, joined Jun 2005, 7651 posts, RR: 4
Reply 9, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3973 times:

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
A similar event happened in the US in 2003, knocking out power from New York City all the way to Detroit. Affected Toronto, too. Maybe we should take the same critique?

but the average American isn't living in a tin shack without power or running water, the life style of you lot can't be compared to an Indian.


User currently offlineFaddypainter From United Kingdom, joined Jun 2010, 131 posts, RR: 0
Reply 10, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3970 times:

I'm no energy expert, but how can such a huge scale blackout occur? Surely such a huge piece of essential infrastructure cannot be so centralised and vulnerable to complete failure  

User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8731 posts, RR: 42
Reply 11, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3952 times:

Quoting comorin (Reply 4):
Cascading blackouts can happen and have happened in the most advanced of countries including the USA with the great Northeast Blackout a few years ago.

Didn't that happen because the grid in question was also inadequate? Perhaps not as woefully so as the Indian one, but still far from advanced.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlineOA260 From Ireland, joined Nov 2006, 27232 posts, RR: 60
Reply 12, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3942 times:

An interesting article which goes some way to explaining the situation of India's electricity problem.

Day Two of India's Blackout Hits Half the Population

Northern India’s electricity returned with a pop, as light bulbs in south Delhi exploded, refrigerators groaned from the surge in power, and electricity sockets spat out smoke.

Twice in two days, much of India lost electricity in back-to-back grid failures, with massive traffic and railway snarls.

http://www.businessweek.com/articles...-blackout-hits-half-the-population

As mentioned above regarding the power outages in the US this was huge compared to those .


User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6644 posts, RR: 6
Reply 13, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3941 times:
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Quoting Faddypainter (Reply 10):
I'm no energy expert, but how can such a huge scale blackout occur? Surely such a huge piece of essential infrastructure cannot be so centralised and vulnerable to complete failure

Usually, there is not a single cause - there is a cascading event. Usually there is a "fault" that tips the first domino.There are supposed to be fail safes that are supposed to stop the dominoes for falling too much.

You can place fail safes for 99% of "credible situations" - but no matter how sophisticated a system is there is always a chance that a perfect storm of events occur that you are just not able to plan for.

Now - depending on the system "sophistication" .. they might not be covered for 99% of the faults, but for only 75%.

It is part of of the post-mortum to understand how this happened - and how (or even IF) it could have been prevented.



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6644 posts, RR: 6
Reply 14, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 12 hours ago) and read 3934 times:
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Quoting aloges (Reply 11):
Didn't that happen because the grid in question was also inadequate?

Not necessarily. One of big contributors was trees and human errors

"2:02 p.m. The first of several 345 kV overhead transmission lines in northeast Ohio fails due to contact with a tree in Walton Hills, Ohio.

2:14 p.m. An alarm system fails at FirstEnergy's control room and is not repaired.

3:05 p.m. A 345 kV transmission line known as the Chamberlin-Harding line fails in Parma, south of Cleveland, due to a tree"

... and the "perfect storm" begins..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northea...lackout_of_2003#Sequence_of_events



Step into my office, baby
User currently offlinealoges From Germany, joined Jan 2006, 8731 posts, RR: 42
Reply 15, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3912 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 14):
trees

That's sort of making my point, if I'm honest. If trees can make contact with a major power line and make it fail, there's a fundamental inadequacy in its maintenance. If that in turn leaves 55 million poeple without power for hours or even a day, well... the "Findings" section of the Wikipedia article explains.



Walk together, talk together all ye peoples of the earth. Then, and only then, shall ye have peace.
User currently offlinemt99 From United States of America, joined May 1999, 6644 posts, RR: 6
Reply 16, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 11 hours ago) and read 3904 times:
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Quoting aloges (Reply 15):
That's sort of making my point, if I'm honest. If trees can make contact with a major power line and make it fail, there's a fundamental inadequacy in its maintenance. If that in turn leaves 55 million poeple without power for hours or even a day, well... the "Findings" section of the Wikipedia article explains.

You can hardly blame the tree trimming mistakes of a company and cast a "inadequate" blanket on the US Grid.

Remember it wants just a tree - that was one of the contributing factors. If the tree would have fallen even minutes later the outcome could have been different,

Trees hit lines all the time - you font see blackouts like this every time that happens.

Again, outages like that have many factors contributing

[Edited 2012-07-31 14:29:04]


Step into my office, baby
User currently offlineNASCARAirforce From United States of America, joined Feb 2005, 3184 posts, RR: 4
Reply 17, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 10 hours ago) and read 3874 times:

Quoting comorin (Reply 4):
Cascading blackouts can happen and have happened in the most advanced of countries including the USA with the great Northeast Blackout a few years ago. Grids can become unstable under certain load levels and switches start tripping.

Maybe I belong on the tinhat brigade, but it will happen again in America too much worse than the northeast or California blackouts. We have been warned what a powerful solar storm could possibly do to not just us but the world's electrical grids.

Quoting Revelation (Reply 6):
More than half the population of the world's most populous nation with nothing better to do than procreate - let's see what happens 9 months from now!

Since when did they pass China up in being most populous?


User currently offlinePPVRA From Brazil, joined Nov 2004, 8971 posts, RR: 39
Reply 18, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3783 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 8):
You can thank the traders at ENRON for that one!

And California regulators, too!



"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
User currently offlinecomorin From United States of America, joined May 2005, 4903 posts, RR: 16
Reply 19, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 6 hours ago) and read 3765 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 9):
Quoting DocLightning (Reply 7):
A similar event happened in the US in 2003, knocking out power from New York City all the way to Detroit. Affected Toronto, too. Maybe we should take the same critique?

but the average American isn't living in a tin shack without power or running water, the life style of you lot can't be compared to an Indian.

So the average Indian deserves to suffer in the blazing heat, or die in his tin shack from thirst? I know a few of them and they hurt, feel and bleed just like every other human being.


User currently offlineMarcus From Mexico, joined Apr 2001, 1807 posts, RR: 2
Reply 20, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3757 times:

Where any of these at night? any satellite pictures?


Kids!....we are going to the happiest place on earth...TIJUANA! signed: Krusty the Clown
User currently offlineblrsea From India, joined May 2005, 1426 posts, RR: 3
Reply 21, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 5 hours ago) and read 3748 times:

The grid is slowly coming online. It happens, and there is lot of factors. There is more than 10% gap between supply and demand. There is shortage of coal. There are problems acquiring land for power plants, from acquisition costs to environment concerns. Plus power is sold at subsidized rates to many in rural India, so most of the power companies are under heavy losses. The list can go on. But on the positive side, there are many more power plants coming up. So in another 5-10 years time, we may get rid of power shortages.

As regards to outages, in 2006, power was down in Greater Seattle area of Washington state here in US, and my home was without power for seven days! Yup, that is right! And it is much more worse off here in US because almost everywhere electricity is heavily used. Couldn't make a cup of coffee at ho, me! There was gridlocks on the streets, restaurants were closed, no ATMs, no gas stations. Took two-three days for power to come back up in many areas. Unfortunately for me, a tree had uprooted the powerlines near my apartment, so we were some of the last people to get power back.

At least in India, people are prepared for power outages (there are scheduled blackouts during peak power shortages), so you can survive without electricity for some time at least  


User currently offlineDocLightning From United States of America, joined Nov 2005, 20191 posts, RR: 59
Reply 22, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 4 hours ago) and read 3724 times:

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 9):

but the average American isn't living in a tin shack without power or running water, the life style of you lot can't be compared to an Indian.

If they don't have power and running water, then a blackout won't affect them much, will it?

Quoting comorin (Reply 19):
So the average Indian deserves to suffer in the blazing heat, or die in his tin shack from thirst? I know a few of them and they hurt, feel and bleed just like every other human being.

That's not the point. The point is that they are equipped to live without electricity for a time. We in this country melt down without electricity.


User currently offlinetugger From United States of America, joined Apr 2006, 5728 posts, RR: 10
Reply 23, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3702 times:

Quoting OA260 (Reply 12):
As mentioned above regarding the power outages in the US this was huge compared to those.

Actually, for power disrupted I bet the 2003 US/Canada outage was larger. And for land area affected by the disruption, I wouldn't be surprised they are around the same, a very large region was affected across North America. Population affected of course there is no comparison, India just has so many more people in a similar land area.


Quoting PPVRA (Reply 18):
Quoting mt99 (Reply 8):
You can thank the traders at ENRON for that one!

And California regulators, too!

No, not really, mostly Enron/unethical traders. The regulation may have had flaws but that doesn't mean "Go ahead, f**k us", it just doesn't. There was no real excuse for what the traders did, for the manipulation of the market.

Tugg



I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
User currently offlinefr8mech From United States of America, joined Sep 2005, 5599 posts, RR: 15
Reply 24, posted (2 years 3 months 3 weeks 3 days 3 hours ago) and read 3702 times:

Quoting mt99 (Reply 13):
Usually, there is not a single cause - there is a cascading event. Usually there is a "fault" that tips the first domino.There are supposed to be fail safes that are supposed to stop the dominoes for falling too much.


Correct. Many widespread black-outs occur because more than one event or action happens at the same time or in sequence to cause the black-out. See the write-up on the 1977 NYC Black-out. Lightning strikes followed by some mis-communication led to the black-out.

Basically, absent a large scale, external influence (storm, earthquake, EMP, etc.) in a properly designed and maintained system, a wide-spread black-out happens only when all the holes in the Swiss Cheese line up. Any individual event would not cause a wide-spread outage.

Quoting NASCARAirforce (Reply 17):
Maybe I belong on the tinhat brigade, but it will happen again in America too much worse than the northeast or California blackouts. We have been warned what a powerful solar storm could possibly do to not just us but the world's electrical grids.


Any system can fail. We've seen it before and we'll see it again. You can not proof a system against every threat, especially a threat that you haven't seen before and only have a theoretical understanding of.

Quoting blrsea (Reply 21):
At least in India, people are prepared for power outages (there are scheduled blackouts during peak power shortages), so you can survive without electricity for some time at least


That statement right there indicates to me that the Indian power grid is inadequate to its needs. If there are scheduled outages to manage load, then there should really be a plan in place to increase capacity, not just shed load. Load shedding is a temporary fix.

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 22):
We in this country melt down without electricity.


Or freeze. We had a power outage here in January 2009 after an ice storm a) brought trees down on power lines and b) powerlines snapped from the weight of the ice. Some areas were without power for 5 or 6 days. We lucked out and didn't lose power. We had 16 people stay at the house for a few days.

We also had an extended, wide spread power outage when we had high winds from Hurricane Ike blast through the area in 2008. We did lose power for 6 days. It was a pain in the ass, but the weather was cool, the kids' school still had power. I would shower at the YMCA (cue the Village People) and did a lot of barbecuing. I was able to snag a rather large supply of dry ice and some coolers , so I was able to keep most of the meat cold. The beer was a problem, so I switched to bourbon.



When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
25 Post contains links DarkSnowyNight : Hardly. What you're thinking of is called a Coronal Mass Ejection. Not quite a solar storm, but hardly something to be brushed aside if we're ever in
26 KiwiRob : That's my point the govt spent billions on nukes and is spending large on defense yet the average Indian lives in squallor Might not affect them at h
27 Post contains images blrsea : One cannot trade defence for economy or vice versa. India still spends very less on defence (~2% of GDP) on defence compared to our neighbours like P
28 fr8mech : Please don't take offense. I read your post and understand that India is doing what it can. But, this 10% gap didn't appear yesterday. It was years i
29 Post contains images tugger : Now I have to ask: We've all seen images like these: . . How much do you think this kind of stuff contributes? How do you fix all the "loss" that is
30 MD11Engineer : I find this snide remark by our Chinese forum member way out of place. So in the People´s Republic of China everything works fine because a strict a
31 KiwiRob : Would really hate to be a linesman in India.
32 Post contains images OA260 : And to think I didnt like the one they put on my land . I'm always prepared for the rare event we have an outage. Usually its due to a bad storm and
33 Post contains images blrsea : For one, I think they are telephone cables, that are usually drawn from a pole outside on the street to the homes , and I see some cable TV lines the
34 PPVRA : Morally, you are right. But for being dumb and/or lazy California regulators and legislators are still at fault.
35 mt99 : yes - you are right.. they should have been regulating more. That is is change from your usually - "less regulation:" is good mantra. I guess residen
36 PPVRA : That's what they were doing! If it wasn't for the regulations, it would never have happened. If you have nothing constructive to say. . .
37 mt99 : Care to give some details? This ought to be good[Edited 2012-08-01 08:35:17]
38 Post contains links PPVRA : "- Staff concludes that supply-demand imbalance, flawed market design and inconsistent rules made possible significant market manipulation as delinea
39 mt99 : Yes.. that means that stronger regulation was needed.. not less How do you fix "market dysfunction"? By taking rules away or placing stronger rules?
40 PPVRA : I thought this was supposed to be good? I am highly disappointed. The regulations were at fault, just as I said. You can choose to confuse immediate
41 Post contains images comorin : O RLY?? There are 300 million middle class people of the 600 million affected that live in concrete homes and high-rises which can become suffocating
42 mt99 : What specific regulations are you complaining about? Which "fundamental" regulation caused this? Me too ! Here i was thinking you were informed in th
43 PPVRA : The fundamental thing I was referring to was the regulatory environment. You, on the other hand, seem to only blame the proximate cause, ie, the Enro
44 Post contains links mt99 : Ohh so.. every single regulation was to blame? Yes- and you are making them the poor victims the circumstances..Boo hoo.. For the third (or is it for
45 tugger : On its face, that comment is ludicrous. The regulations didn't "cause" what happened. They may have accidentally "allowed" it but it was caused by tr
46 PPVRA : Even a single regulation can have a big enough impact to reshape the environment. Do NOT put words in my mouth. I never said or ever implied such a t
47 PPVRA : That's like completely exonerating yourself from any fault for your car getting stolen because you CHOOSE not to lock it. You didn't accidentally all
48 Post contains images tugger : Boy, you are great at making my point! Thanks! I am not "exonerating" the regulations or the legislators that created them. But can you tell me how m
49 mt99 : For this case - mention one. (Fifth time asking now?) One link that does not show anything. You are the one trying to make a point. Burden of proof i
50 B2443 : First of all, my background has nothing to do with this. Gets a little personal doesn't it? Based on your other replies, you do seem to have a habit
51 MD11Engineer : So why this remark? To me it looks like : Democracy = inefficient government Centrally controlled government and economy = high efficiency and thing
52 DocLightning : Perhaps he's concerned that if he doesn't, they might come for him.
53 Post contains images B2443 : You said it. But to me, not necessarily. Without $$$, you are just not going to be efficient, regardless what system you have. And you said it again,
54 tugger : No one said democracy was a "superior system". A philosopher-king has long been considered the "best" form of government as the "father" (or mother q
55 B2443 : a little contradictory one might think... There goes my original comment and obviously MD11 doesn't agree with you.
56 tugger : Of course one might think it, it is! Democracy can very much be contradictory! But the fact is we are talking about a system of government, not a com
57 B2443 : I meant your comments were contradicting to each other. Read my original comment again. I am not disagreeing with in that some people like yourself c
58 PPVRA : Burden of proof is indeed on me, and I have provided enough information for you to educate yourself. But there is absolutely nothing I can do if you
59 mt99 : Hmm no you haven't. But -as the kids say - whatevs... i have been around a.net long enough to know that when people throw out this kind of response i
60 PPVRA : Sure I have. And you can also do a google search for more links if you need more info. What I haven't gotten from you is a single reply that indicate
61 Post contains links mt99 : See i was right.. The one-page report you provided does not even contain the word "regulation" - Are you aware of that? It does, however include the
62 PPVRA : See, you think that providing that one page with a summary means you do not have enough information to perform your own research. That's wrong. What
63 mt99 : Ive done the research. This California Power Crisis had a prominent part on my Masters Thesis on Power Markets in the US. So no need to wait for me,
64 PPVRA : Sorry buddy, but your comments in this thread make it clear you know nothing about economics, incentives, trading, and how all this relates to the Ca
65 mt99 : HAHHA.. ..! Come on man.And your 1 pager from FERC does? (which in fact proves my point not yours) show you in depth knowledge of the subject. I am c
66 PPVRA : See reply 62. See your wikipedia link.
67 PPVRA : Are you referring to reply 39 here? Because that's a great example of how confused this stuff makes you and, if you were at least familiar with the a
68 Post contains images mt99 : Sorry, like you , I am not going to spoon feed you. My point is perfectly clear "somewhere in the thread" Look for it yourself. But OK, fine explain
69 PPVRA : Just needed confirmation of what I was thinking. Didn't ask you to do anything else. I already did in reply 43. Can't, because there are a couple tha
70 mt99 : That's as good as asying " Oxygen in the air" cause the crisis. Specifics would be nice. No, YOU feel free to post the link and specific paragraphs t
71 PPVRA : I didn't ask you to prove anything. . . I asked you what's your issue with it. I said arguably, so no strict proof. I mean, what sort of deregulation
72 mt99 : I have no issue it. I agree with its finding which are summarized in the handy dandy one-pager you provided. (see reply 61) You were asked to prove o
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